October 30, 2025 • 43 mins
Andrew and Dominique know almost nothing about D’Angelo, so if they didn’t do a D’Angelo episode now, they might never learn.
We enlist LiteFM midday host and National Black Radio Hall of Famer Helen Little to help fill in the gaps in our knowledge.
Helen has worked at heritage R&B radio stations in both New York and Philadelphia since the '90s. She was in on the proverbial ground floor of D'Angelo's pop career, met him numerous times and has a strong connection to his first two studio albums.
Tell us about your first listen @AtFirstListenPodcast on Instagram!
Subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
(Episode 42.)
We enlist LiteFM midday host and National Black Radio Hall of Famer Helen Little to help fill in the gaps in our knowledge.
Helen has worked at heritage R&B radio stations in both New York and Philadelphia since the '90s. She was in on the proverbial ground floor of D'Angelo's pop career, met him numerous times and has a strong connection to his first two studio albums.
Tell us about your first listen @AtFirstListenPodcast on Instagram!
Subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
(Episode 42.)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to At First Listen, the music podcast for people
who don't always get the hype but want to.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And I'm Dominique, and.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
We said we wouldn't do this where we do an
episode every time there's a major death in music, but
we felt like DiAngelo was worth an episode. He passed
away sadly at just fifty one years old, earlier this month,
and Dome and I don't really know what we don't
know about DiAngelo except that we saw him in the
(00:41):
Sly and the Family Stone documentary earlier this year. He
had a strangely large part in that for someone who's
not made a record in over a decade.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
So that's looking at me. Raised Yeah, he was smoking a.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Lot, yes, and wearing a lot of rings, a lot
of rings.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
But yeah, I think that it's one of those things
where I if we didn't do it, if we didn't
do it, and if I didn't do this now, I
was never gonna really get into him the way I
want to.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
So we're bringing in an expert and that is a
light a them radio personality. Former Power one five to
one program director and National Black Radio Hall of Famer
Helen Little, Hello, Welcome, Helen.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
Thank you guys for having me expert is a is
a is an interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Word compared to us. You're definitely an expert.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Okay, for the purposes of this show, it's anyone who
knows a little bit about what we're talking about is
an expert.
Speaker 6 (01:35):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I really wanted to do this episode, but then I thought,
I we can't just give this the.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Normal for anything.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, exactly, not about DiAngelo.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
We can do that about Cardi b or c China
or whatever, but I want to I want to actually
learn about him, and I have so many.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I would say that before his death, what I knew
about DiAngelo was that he was big in the nineties,
and I.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Wouldn't have been able to name a song.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
And I'm so happy that we did this episode because
these first two records are like everything that I would
have wanted them to be. Yeah, this is clearly a
real musician, a real songwriter, and someone that I'm going
to be diving into even deeper after this episode because
(02:34):
I'm that intrigued by what he did. So, Helen, I
understand that you have actually dealt personally with t'angelo.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
I had the opportunity to work with him you know,
on more than one occasion at more than one radio station,
because I had a strong connection with the people at
his label, and even had some interaction with his manager.
Speaker 6 (03:01):
We'll talk about that later, who was interesting also.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
But I found a photo when you asked me to
do the podcast, I was like, I got pictures with Dandel's.
I got lots of pictures with di'angelo, so I just
need to go down to the basement and find them.
I actually had one that was.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
In a actually got you to go down to the basement.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
The basement of my house where there's thousands of CDs.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
A finished basement or finished And when I have to
go to the basement in my house, it's like, I
bring a hoodie, I bring headlamp.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Bring both her cats for protection.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
No wondering what I'm gonna find.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
I'm always like mine's got you know, wine, wrecks and treadmill.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
And she's an adult.
Speaker 6 (03:44):
Sometimes, so you know. And I have a closet that
is full of photos.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
And so when I came downstairs, I actually had a
photo in a frame on display. I'm like, oh, I
forgot about that picture. And I went into the closet
and I was just looking through. I don't have them
in any kind of of organized fashion. But I was
just pulling out pictures, pulling out pictures, and I came
across one. It was a picture of me in the
middle of Sean Stockton from Boys to Men and DiAngelo,
(04:11):
and I'm like, oh wow, this must have been definitely
in Philadelphia, because Boys to Men in Philadelphia, and I
associate so much of my time with DeAngelo in Philadelphia.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
But it was actually at WBLS in New York.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
It's a legendary radio station, and I happened to be
the music director when his first album came out. So
the only way I knew that is that I zoomed
in on the well. I looked closely at the picture,
and I could see a reflection of the call letters
through the glass in the studio, and I'm like, that
was WBLS. But his first album came out in nineteen
(04:51):
ninety ninety five, five right July of ninety five, and
I was at WBLS. But one of my favorite songs
from the same album came out in ninety six, and
I was at Power ninety nine in Philadelphia.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Four singles from this album.
Speaker 6 (05:07):
Yes So.
Speaker 5 (05:10):
Lady was the third single, and by that time I
was in Philadelphia and the guy was going out with
We were in the car and we were writing on
seventy six and I remember getting off the highway right
by thirtieth Street train station and he said, this song
reminds me of you. He says, this is our song,
(05:39):
and it was Lady, and I listened to the lyrics
and I'm.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
Like, oh, that was just so sweet. This is gonna
be the song we sing in our wedding. Well that
never happened.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
He just said, because you are a lady.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
No, no, no, he was. He loved whoever that song
was about.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
There was a great deal of love for the person
in that song or the item it might not have.
You know, some people referred to their car as a lady.
I don't know exactly who the song was about or
intended for. So anyway, I discovered that I was actually
in New York when his first album came out.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
So was D'Angelo.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Because sometimes how it works in at least the radio
side I know, is sometimes an artist gets introduced to
people before they have anything out, like, oh, so and
so was in town. I just wanted you to meet them.
They're going to have a record, we're going to be
playing it for you eventually. Did you meet D'Angelo before
you heard the music? Had you heard of him before
(06:34):
you met him? And what was your first impression of
whatever the first song was that you heard.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
So, considering that that was a million years ago, I
don't exactly know, but if I were a betting woman,
I would say that I met him before I heard
his music. I probably met him through the channels at
Emi Records, because I remember the people that worked there.
There was a guy who was head of promotions named
Dave Rosa's I think it was, and we.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Were tight.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
And we would always talk music and he would always
let me know what was coming up. And so I
had other friends on the staff there, and I know
he worked with Black Men United, which had a bunch
of artists that I also had worked some with, which
was Brian McKnight Boys to Men, and he was involved
with that project. So when I saw that photo, I
(07:23):
thought to myself, is that was that then? Promoting the
Black Men United project? Before Brown Sugar actually came out?
You know, why were the three of us hanging around
taking photos together? Or maybe Sean Stockton was introducing di'angelo
(07:43):
as a part of bringing his music to the radio station.
But I get the sense from that moment that it
was before that album came out and that they were
letting me know, because that was very common to hear
music before the artist came out. For example, it was
Maxwell before his music came out. You know, they came
(08:06):
to me and like, we know you're gonna like this.
We're gonna give it to you before it's out. We're
gonna we're gonna leak it to you. They leaked it
to me and we played it.
Speaker 6 (08:14):
We didn't say who the artist was before it came out.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
He said it was a mystery artist. We just want
people to hear it. And so that kind of thing
was common. So if I were to be a betting woman,
I would say that moment was before his album came out,
and I was meeting him, getting to know him, him
getting to know me before I before the album was out.
And then of course as soon as I heard it,
I'm like, this is music. This sounds like a live
(08:45):
music venue. And I can feel and smell the smoke
in the air, I can hear the chatter at the tables,
I can see the full ash trays sitting on the
phone full Ash trays I can hear the glasses clinking
with ice. You know, that was vibe of the music
on this album. It reminded me of live music, even
(09:07):
though it was a.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Recording where a lot of people were experienced were more
combining hip hop and.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, yeah, I really wanted to talk to you about that,
like being in that place and time. This this genre,
(09:35):
neo soul, that's like what everyone you know, that's what
we're That's what we're calling it, right D'Angelo, And I'm like,
I want to know what you think about that, about
what that, what that means, what that what that genre is,
if you think that's a real genre, or what are
your thoughts on that topic?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Were you part of the neosulification of soul music?
Speaker 5 (09:57):
So there's so many interesting stories about neo soul. Number one,
D'Angelo did not like that label. I thought I remembered that,
but his manager k Don Masenberg is the one who
kind of coined that phrase, and it was a kind
of a specific sound and when I was in Philadelphia,
it was like very prevalent, But really what it was
(10:22):
was just really good R and B music by talented musicians.
And I think they called it. He called it neo
because hip hop had really come in and taking its
place in the market. But it was laced with R
and B because a lot of it was sampling from
R and B records.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
It was sampling from all kinds of records.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
And you know, I grew up in the seventies and eighties,
and you know a lot of the sounds of especially
the seventies music, was what I was hearing. In the nineties,
you talked about sly Stone, you could hear elements of
Di'angelo's sly Stone's influence in Di'angelo's music, you could hear
(11:03):
you could definitely hear Prince And I think I read
a story that his father came home when he was
three years old, DeAngelo's father and heard him playing a
Prince song on the piano at age three, and that's
when he knew that his son was destined for something
greater in the music world. But you heard those elements
(11:24):
because these are people who mastered their instruments and their sound, and.
Speaker 6 (11:31):
Things kind of shifted.
Speaker 7 (11:32):
In the eighties to a more electronic sound, and then
hip hop became a thing in the early nineties and
more R and b was.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
They wanted to call it neo soul because they didn't
want it to sound like he was old music, like
it was from the seventies.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Write sixth But that's what it sounded like, and that
was beautiful about it.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
That's what it confused me a lot, actually, because I thought, so,
it's like, aren't nan my mom's a soul singer, right,
and she I grew up listening to a lot of
the same influences that you know that DiAngelo grew up with.
And I so I've kind of always deferred to listening
to like the influences rather than the people who were influenced,
(12:16):
because I'm like, why do I need to listen to
someone trying to sound like Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gak.
Can just listen to that, right, But uh, this is
like the one where there this is like way more
baby making ish, not really uh if you actually listen
to Prince, But like I think, uh, it was it's
a lot. I think it would have made my mom
(12:36):
uncomfortable listening to like DiAngelo, And that's why I never
heard it as a kid, Yeah, because she's like, doesn't like,
you know, curse words?
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Okay, So well, The funny thing is my favorite song
on an album is She's damn motherfucker.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Yeah, that is freaking brilliant.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
It is.
Speaker 6 (12:52):
That is a brilliant song. I love, love love that song.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So I'm sorry, no it is.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
And that's but I think that I'm That's what I'm
realizing is the main difference is that sort of like
a newer type of language that would be more comfortable
with like the younger audience. And I just wonder what
actually is the difference she does. It's like I was
(13:30):
never a fan of R and B, like the genre
as a whole, Like I like individual artists, right, but
it's like, what is R and B rhythm and blues?
What is like there's that is so much of just
like modern music can also fit into the R and
B genre.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
Well, I mean R and B is as vast and
as unique as people if you ask me, because there's
so many different ways to call a record R and B.
Speaker 6 (13:58):
There's you know, you had your soul, you had your.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
You actually had what was it called hip hop soul?
Speaker 6 (14:07):
Hip hop soul, You also had soul music.
Speaker 5 (14:10):
Then you also had blues music, which really to me
wasn't rhythm in blues music. But then there was neo
soul and you know, all these different fonts, good, yep,
all of it, you know, and it's so it's it's
really to me music that had a rhythm. But what
(14:31):
I liked about what di'angelo was doing was this sound.
Speaker 6 (14:35):
The way it sounded. It sounded, it wasn't super polished.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Not and I loved it.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
You brought that up because I was listening to Untitled
from the second record. Obviously, that is probably his most
iconic moment, the music video for that song where he's
just naked, and I remember I remember seeing like the
premiere of that video on MTV as a child.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
And being like, huh, okay, he's in good shape.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, the first time, you know, you ever attracted to him.
Man realizing But.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
There's there's a part in that song and maybe i'll
I'll layer it in here.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Where you hear just like like finger noises on the bass.
Speaker 6 (15:19):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Here, like the speaking sort of. They would never allow.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
That sound on a record today, especially the bass is
like so specifically mixed in music nowadays. It's there's not
You're not supposed to hear any extra noise. It's supposed
to fit into a very particular pocket.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
No.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
When I heard that, I was like, oh, this is why,
because Andrew texted me He's like this, this is so good,
Like I can't you know, I can't wait for you
to listen to this. And when I did listen, I
was like, Oh, it's the bass. That's why Andrew's faking
it is.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
The records are produced not to be like vocal records.
He's not just the singer of the band. He is
leading the band. And it's not he's not featuring like
himself his piano or his guitar or his vocals over
other things. This is about creating a complete arrangement.
Speaker 5 (16:28):
He was an instrument, yeah, and you know, but not
just his voice. But as he played, he was like,
to me, it was all one thing. It was all one,
you know, one thing, him playing, him singing, him creating.
It was it was all mixed together because it was
(16:50):
just so beautiful soul.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
And the records sound live. And yeah, not everyone encourages that,
especially if you're on a big label doing a big
pop record. You're not like encouraging your bass player to
fill space where you could just be showing off what
you do, like like, this is a guy who clearly
went to church as a child.
Speaker 6 (17:14):
Yeah, his father was a minister and.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Was hearing a lot of gospel music for sure, yeah as.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
A kid, but also those strong jazz influences, strong jazz.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Probably was in jazz bands. If I had to guess that, I.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Don't know, yeah, I that I think I don't.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I did not know that the auteur stuff about Dangelo,
and I think that's definitely what kind of slowed me
down getting into him, because I, you know, I'm used
to hearing R and B singers, you know, and they're
singers really and the beat is Ryan mknight yeah, or
(17:54):
you know, you know, I don't even want to say
his name, but R Kelly, for example, amazing singer, amazing artist,
everything else we can throw away.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, But like I think.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
It wasn't until researching him and realizing, oh, he's an artist.
He created, he created this whole sound, but also a
whole world like you described that you can feel in
the music because it's the lyrics are repetitive, like on
this first album. They're they're lovely, but it's not like
(18:32):
super complicated. It's not what you would normally expect from
someone who's just a singer, right because you want more
complex lyrics. But realizing like, oh he created this whole
thing totally clicked for me. Why he's such a celebrated artist.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
Yeah, he deserves all the celebration. It's funny.
Speaker 7 (18:49):
I was.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
My actual favorite song that he sings on is one
with Lauren Hill. Though oh nothing even matters.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
I can't. I can't really separate, you know, their careers
almost and it's I didn't realize that he was on
Lauren Hill's Miseducation of Laurence Hill because they are both
they're of that same period. They have a very small
body of work with just their name on it. Dangelo
(19:22):
did a bunch of features after between his last two records.
Speaker 6 (19:25):
But she had the fujis before too true.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
But there was like there's a long period where it's
there's nothing in the discography, and I wonder if maybe
they went through some of the same things as far
as getting super famous and then being like I don't
think I want to do this anymore, or I.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Don't want to do it the way I'm doing it.
Speaker 6 (19:52):
I would say no, Yeah, I would say no.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
She went through some things that she just went through,
and he went through some things that he you went through,
and I think you're more on point with with DeAngelo
in that regard, because.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
When he did.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
That music video that was so iconic and they turned
him into a sex symbol, that was something that he
never wanted and he's you know, he made that known
and you know, he wanted to make music not necessarily
be objectified. But it brought attention to his music. But
(20:31):
it was something that did not sit right for him,
it seems, and I think that's where he backed off,
because if that's what I have to do, I don't
know if I want to do this.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
He didn't want to be usher where there's like the
part of the show where he takes his shirt off.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Which is I I think it's so interesting.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
Yeah, I very different artists though, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
More different.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
But I think that is so funny because come on,
the music is sexy and he's talking about, you know,
(21:18):
sensual things. So I get not wanting to be like
always naked and having to have abs all the time.
But it's also there's a reason that that video worked
perfectly for the sound.
Speaker 6 (21:33):
But did you hear it first or see it first?
I heard it first.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I mean, yeah, of course, that video. It was the
first thing I ever saw sag in.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Right, So most people heard the song when I first
saw the video, right, I heard the song now twenty.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Years yeah, yeah, totally where.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
I didn't connect it to the video, And it was like,
this is a beautiful song.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
That's what I associate with this kind of sound.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
And like when you said you know that this was
your song with your who you were dating at the time,
I was like, oh my god. If I was of
age when this came out, Like yeah, so you know,
(22:20):
I think there is something to that, and and you know,
so much respect for him, of course, But I do
think that it is an interesting conversation considering how many
you know, female artists don't don't get to say, oh,
I don't want to be sexy, I don't want to
be objective, I don't want to be hot. Doesn't matter
(22:41):
even what you do, even for you, I'm sure we
all experience it, no matter what job you have. Actually,
as a woman, you have to appear a certain amount
of attractive. So I don't know, it's funny because I'm
sure he would be interested in having that conversation himself.
Speaker 5 (22:59):
It's funny you should say that because I got into
radio because people couldn't see me. That was one of
the one of the attraction, not the only attraction, but
one of the attractions. So it didn't used to matter
all the time. But I hear what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, no, I just it's interesting, and you know, I
would say it is a generational thing that that now
it's like, no matter what career you have, you have
to brand yourself. You have to look good on social media,
you have to be able to be like a frontward
facing person. So I so I take it for granted
that that is that's it's no longer optional, correct.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
So I so I think from.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
My perspective when I hear that, I'm like, it's just complicated,
I because I totally get it. I totally get it.
And he's a he's an artist, and he's a he
was a producer. I feel like that was what he
really kept doing from before he before his album continuously
he was a part of the creation of music. And
(23:58):
so I understand not wanting to be frontward facing. But
it is funny from from where we are now.
Speaker 5 (24:03):
Yeah, but that's I think part of that is what
led to where we are now. He you know, it's interesting.
I was watching something that was spreading yesterday on social
media about MTV once music became a more visual medium,
meaning like not just on stage. Because a group I
(24:23):
grew up loving was Steely Dan, and they didn't tour,
so you never saw them. You know, you might see
a picture of them on the back of an album cover,
inside an album, not even on the back.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Helen all I want to do on this for us
to have a guest who chooses Steely Dan. That is
maybe the reason I wanted to do this podcast in
the first place.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
So we're gonna do a Steely Van.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah. Why didn't you say that sooner?
Speaker 4 (24:51):
I mean, that's I don't know why it took me
over a year to say that.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, but it's a that's not our first listen, So that.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Was someone else brought up Steely Dam putting it out there.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (25:01):
I love Steely Dan. I mean I'm a die hard
dand fan, and.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
That first tour that they ever went on in the nineties,
I was their front and center, and it was like
a dream come true to me because this is a
you know, so people who love music, they you know,
they want to get as close to it, they want
to get inside of it at least. Okay, I like
to get inside the music that I love, you know,
I want to I want to taste it, I want
to smell it, I want to see it, I want
(25:26):
to experience it. And so I think that's what what
going back to the point that you made, that's what
we're doing now. We're having the visual experience, we're having
the oral experience. We're having all of these experiences. And
it comes with the territory, you know. But I think
for DiAngelo at that time, it's like I get that,
but does it have to be this way? But it worked,
(25:50):
and the people who were marketing that project knew it
would work.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
Yeah, and it did work, and we're still talking about it.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah. I mean, it's like the Golden handcuffs thing.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Do you want to shoot a music video where you're, oh, wait, D'Angelo,
I have an idea for you.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Well, I think he had to get in shape for
that video and then he he he. That's like the
legend says at least that it was like right, it
was basically that he Because the first time I actually
ever really learned about this was actually in a music
video class that I took in college. It was a
weird class, but basically it was that he it was
like soon after he was on tour and people were.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Like, take your shit off, we want to see.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
It, and he like didn't stay in shape like that,
and that was part of I think it was part
of the issue, because he didn't want to spend all
his time in the gym and cutting cutting calorie. Take.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
From what I understand way back then, the lore was
that he had like a certain degree of shyness, if
I'm not mistaken, and they wanted to make it they
were trying to get they were trying to evoke an
emotion in his performance, meaning like the record itself and
(27:14):
then also for the visual and so that's kind of
what I remember the idea coming from.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
But like I said, that was what thirty years ago.
I don't remember a.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
Long time ago, twenty five years ago at least more
than that. But I do believe the idea came from
him being a little shy in front of the camera
and trying to get him to relax, which is like, Okay,
you're gonna take my clothes off and that's gonna make
me relax.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
You didn't want to have like some model.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Being like his girlfriend for the purposes of the video,
he thought, like they thought that was going to be
super awkward, so it was like, well, how about this, right,
and it probably turned out better.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
It's also beautifully shyy it.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Is, so then the audience gets to be the hot
lady that he's talking about in the video. Yeah, but
he's I mean, he's beautiful regardless of like without his
beautiful soul, but he's just.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Like a pretty pretty guy.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
So it's one of those things where yeah, totally, as
an artist, like people are like, I want to take
every everything about you, I want some of it, and like,
I mean.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
That to me is a problem.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
It totally, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 6 (28:24):
That's a that's a problem of another.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Especially for black I think for black artists especially. I
think that like when I think about so many like
white rock and roll guys like nobody, I mean, some
of them are sex symbols, but for the most part
they can just like exist.
Speaker 6 (28:43):
We're not owned by their existence.
Speaker 5 (28:49):
And so that's the piece I think that that you're
kind of getting at that you.
Speaker 6 (28:53):
Know, here I I.
Speaker 5 (28:56):
Kind of own my existence over here, but here my
existence is being owned because I'm not necessarily I get it,
but I didn't necessarily choose it.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
And I'm not going to say that.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
I'm going to say that the majority of artists sometime
in their life went through something like that where they
didn't get to make the choice. It's like, this is
what's going to be good for your career, this is
what we are investing in.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
D d Well.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
In one of our other obituary episodes, we talked about
Black Sabbath and how their first album cover or not
their album cover, the inside of the album was all
inverted crosses and stuff, and they're like this, where did
this come from? The labels like, oh, it's just to
sell records that people are going to go crazy. And
(29:40):
they're like, okay, we're not. We're not Satanists.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
They're like, yeah, a lot of people in America think
you are. But that's good.
Speaker 6 (29:49):
But yeah, I would I would agree with you.
Speaker 7 (29:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I think it's funny because I have this argument with
my with like some of my people in comedy, my
friends in comedy about like it's like, oh, I mean
I can be very not nihilistic, but I think I
always say pragmatic about it. People are like, oh, I
don't want to be pigeonholed as this specific type of
(30:14):
comedian or I don't want to be. I don't want
to do gimmicks, And I'm like, you'd be lucky to
be pigeonholed. Nobody knows who we are, so if somebody
wants to recognize us for something we do, that's ideal
at the beginning. So and then you get but then
you do get sucked into it and then it stops
being yours and I do, And it's like, I think,
all like, I do have so much respect for Dangel
(30:36):
because it's not like he said, It's not like he
didn't lose out from saying no to that. He he
made huge sacrifice with like whatever financially basically, not by
not sacrificing his integrity with his music, with his image,
with his vision in general.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Right, how did you Helen as someone who's there from
the beginning? Experians like the kind of explosion of his
career because I feel like this first record put him
at a level, and then the second record, Voodoo with
the song untitled that we're talking about that put him
on a whole another level.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, tie it in, tie it in with the song.
I love that.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
To me because it's to me, he was already there.
He was there on the first album.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
So this is like.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
Any artist, you know, if you're there from the beginning,
you're like, oh my god, they are here. And then
then you got the people that come in on the
second album or the third album, or after they've died
and they realize this is great.
Speaker 6 (31:42):
But they don't.
Speaker 5 (31:43):
They weren't there for the trajectory, which to me was
that of that level. It's just not as many people
knew about him, if that makes any sense to you.
So musically he was top shelf and on the first album,
second album, top shelf, he was a top shelf artist.
Speaker 6 (32:02):
He was art, and.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
It's just that other people became more familiar with his
art and therefore therefore increased the numbers of people who
knew about him. I don't think that he as an
artist necessarily exploded. I think he was an explosion from
the start, and it's just more people saw the explosion,
if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
At the time, you didn't feel like, oh, the second
record is different. He's he's trying so much.
Speaker 6 (32:31):
I didn't feel like it was different.
Speaker 5 (32:33):
I'm trying, like he was already spectacular and he's now
spectacular again, And to me, that's the that's the really
cool thing. When you can do spectacular over and over again,
that is impressive. I think that's That's where I'm trying
to get at. It's like he was already spectacular, it's
just more people knew he was spectacular on that second
(32:56):
album when they came across video hit video, hit video,
and we're not talking about music, We're talking about a video,
and the video led people to the music, right.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
I mean, as I just listened over the weekend to
the first two albums and nothing struck me as, oh,
this is the album after he got famous, Like there was.
There's nothing different sonically on either that would hint at
an artist who's trying to land at a certain spot
on the charts or appeal to a certain community.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I would say that they totally agree with that.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
But I did feel a bit of a looser kind
of energy with the first album.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
It was.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It did feel a little bit more I don't know,
a little bit less produced, a little bit more organic,
maybe because I also listened to like the B side
mixtape part of it and it did it Yeah. To me,
it was a little bit I could I felt that
I felt that grittier.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, less polished, less polished.
Speaker 5 (34:03):
Intentionally polished, because when we use the word polish, some
people think polish means it's better, you know, But I
think polish means that you just took an edge off
of it when I'm talking about music. That for me,
I like an unpolished edge in my music. Yes, I
like a raw I like a raw emotion. I like
a raw sound. I love hearing the strings when the
(34:26):
musician is touching them, you know.
Speaker 6 (34:30):
I love the ambient.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Noise, the voice crack, everything like that.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
That's one of the best things that Alicia Keys does
is when the voice cracks when she's a little bit flat,
like like, that's what lets us know that you're really
doing it. And I think people are going to come
to value that a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yes, that's what AI could never do. Don't get me
starting like it actually.
Speaker 6 (34:55):
Unless you're talking about Alan Ivers.
Speaker 8 (35:10):
I feel like he's seen of course. Yeah, presentation very
much like that album. I mean it was it felt like.
Speaker 5 (35:23):
When you when you listen to Brown Sugar, it feels
like you're sitting in a small venue watching him perform.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
The music video for that song is like in a
jazz club.
Speaker 8 (35:32):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 6 (35:37):
I recall seeing him in small venues and larger venues.
Speaker 5 (35:41):
I don't know how many times I saw him in
what capacity, but usually some of them were Most of
them were closed events as opposed to open to the public,
just because I like those kind of events.
Speaker 6 (35:51):
I love intimate.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Let me tell you about the girl. Maybe I should
a man of and the name was Brian. See, we'd
been making love constantly.
Speaker 6 (36:06):
The fewer people in the room, the better.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
Caroa just got to see Sam Smith then underplay in.
Speaker 5 (36:12):
Yeah, that kind of thing is great. Hey, I saw
Sam Smith before Sam Smith begun to take off right
in our own building. Yeah, and I'm like eyes, like,
holy cow, who is this guy? And then less than
a year he was in Madison Square Garden and it
(36:34):
was good in Madison Square Garden, but it was so.
Speaker 6 (36:37):
Amazing in the iHeart Radio Music Theater.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
And when you have an artist who can pull it
off in a small room because they're just good, yeah, talent.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
That's that's where it's at.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, I mean it doesn't really compare.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
I we talked about this before in other episodes, about
the whole arena show thing, and I can never see
myself spending money to pay for a Beyonce concert, for example,
I would rather see a random lady that I've never
heard of that I can actually be It's an actual
(37:14):
show where I'm actually hearing the music and I'm seeing
the musicians right there.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
It's it's totally different. It's it's totally different.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
I think the arena shows are kind of more it's
almost more like a circus or like a spectacle kind
of event.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
Which is if this, if this was a hologram, it wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Be any difference exactly.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And that's an incredible feat And but I'm like, I'm
impressed by the production. I'm impressed by the creative stage
management and costume design, and it's very cool.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
But I'm like, that's not that's not going to that's not.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
The experience of seeing an artist and going to a concert.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
So that is that is really special.
Speaker 5 (38:01):
I mean, I I I like all the different kind
of experiences. And I've had the benefit of being in
this business and not having to pay for a lot
of stuff, you know, so I try to pay now.
Speaker 6 (38:11):
Like I just went to see David Byrne, which was incredible.
Speaker 5 (38:17):
David Byrne is the former head, uh leading the Talking Heads,
some former head and he was in a medium Yeah,
the Talking is head and he.
Speaker 6 (38:26):
Was in a medium size venue. But it was it
was so visually beautiful, it was so orally beautiful. It
was it was everything that was done well.
Speaker 5 (38:35):
I've been to big arena shows where I had the
best time, and I've been to uh performances in a
little lounge downstairs where it was spectacular. So I I
enjoy both, but I do like the intimate better and
being able to see DiAngelo in that kind of situation,
(38:56):
an intimate one mm priceless.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Well that's like.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
That's that is the closest thing to the vibe that
he created. Yeah, it doesn't sound like an arena. These
aren't like big ballads.
Speaker 5 (39:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
It feels like you described you know.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
To come back, everybody sing along parts. It doesn't seem true.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
But give the mic to the audience.
Speaker 6 (39:20):
Yeah, no, I call and response. But that's a very
church thing, that's true.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
But those you know, we're totally off topic.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
But I think that it's like when you when you
go to those huge concerts, it's more about your relationship
with like the person who's sitting next to you. The
other audience members rather than there's like that distance between
you and the audience.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
And I think that that's what di'angelo.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Really take, like strips away, like even just listening to
the record that there is.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yeah, you're definitely in the room. Yeah sound yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
So I think it's great.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yes, And you know, I, uh, this has been so
cool talking to you. We like we talked about the
album kind.
Speaker 6 (40:08):
Of yeah, yeah, talked about the album.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
You know, I wanted to mention, well, I told you
my favorite song on the album, which was definitely not
a single, And you know, I just think back to
lyrically and how I think he surprised people, like what's
brown Sugar about? I think that was like a big
question back then. Is it about a woman? Is it
(40:38):
about weed?
Speaker 6 (40:40):
Is it about you know, what you put in a
sweet potato pie?
Speaker 5 (40:43):
No? And you know, I think he he he used
words so beautifully on that album, even with curse words.
Speaker 6 (40:52):
He you know, throughout the whole song, throughout the whole album.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
That's beautifully put. I think also the way that it
means something different each time he says it. Yeah, and
you're kind of trying to figure out, like what even
just looking at the title.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
You know, shit, damn motherfucker. What is he what is
he saying that about?
Speaker 5 (41:15):
And you're like, I had my ideas, you know what
I think each person had. I mean, you could be
in traffic, shit to damnly motherfucker, or you could be in.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Bed totally, totally, totally, could.
Speaker 5 (41:29):
Be having a meal one of the best meals you
ever had, or you could be having one of the
worst meals you've ever had.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Shit damn all of.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Those and no, And it's yeah, the combination, the combination
of those words together, each one separately, yea and then
with his voice like which.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Totally it contrasts it.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
It contrasts like those words because it's just so voice
of an angel. But uh, it's been such a pleasure
talking to you, Helen, Like.
Speaker 6 (42:03):
Thank you guys for welcoming, welcome you onto your show.
I really enjoyed this.
Speaker 7 (42:08):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
Yeah, it's always nice when we have someone who has
a little bit of history with the topic.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
That was our first Listen tell us about yours at
the next UC Black Show November first, at nine pm.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
A upright, citizens, frigate, it's my birthday, so be there
or be blame.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
Be over catch Helen mid days on I want to
success with them. Thank you all right, We'll be back
next week with a new episode, Thank You.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
When Rang
Welcome to At First Listen, the music podcast for people
who don't always get the hype but want to.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And I'm Dominique, and.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
We said we wouldn't do this where we do an
episode every time there's a major death in music, but
we felt like DiAngelo was worth an episode. He passed
away sadly at just fifty one years old, earlier this month,
and Dome and I don't really know what we don't
know about DiAngelo except that we saw him in the
(00:41):
Sly and the Family Stone documentary earlier this year. He
had a strangely large part in that for someone who's
not made a record in over a decade.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
So that's looking at me. Raised Yeah, he was smoking a.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Lot, yes, and wearing a lot of rings, a lot
of rings.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
But yeah, I think that it's one of those things
where I if we didn't do it, if we didn't
do it, and if I didn't do this now, I
was never gonna really get into him the way I
want to.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
So we're bringing in an expert and that is a
light a them radio personality. Former Power one five to
one program director and National Black Radio Hall of Famer
Helen Little, Hello, Welcome, Helen.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
Thank you guys for having me expert is a is
a is an interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Word compared to us. You're definitely an expert.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Okay, for the purposes of this show, it's anyone who
knows a little bit about what we're talking about is
an expert.
Speaker 6 (01:35):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I really wanted to do this episode, but then I thought,
I we can't just give this the.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Normal for anything.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, exactly, not about DiAngelo.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
We can do that about Cardi b or c China
or whatever, but I want to I want to actually
learn about him, and I have so many.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I would say that before his death, what I knew
about DiAngelo was that he was big in the nineties,
and I.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Wouldn't have been able to name a song.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
And I'm so happy that we did this episode because
these first two records are like everything that I would
have wanted them to be. Yeah, this is clearly a
real musician, a real songwriter, and someone that I'm going
to be diving into even deeper after this episode because
(02:34):
I'm that intrigued by what he did. So, Helen, I
understand that you have actually dealt personally with t'angelo.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
I had the opportunity to work with him you know,
on more than one occasion at more than one radio station,
because I had a strong connection with the people at
his label, and even had some interaction with his manager.
Speaker 6 (03:01):
We'll talk about that later, who was interesting also.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
But I found a photo when you asked me to
do the podcast, I was like, I got pictures with Dandel's.
I got lots of pictures with di'angelo, so I just
need to go down to the basement and find them.
I actually had one that was.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
In a actually got you to go down to the basement.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
The basement of my house where there's thousands of CDs.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
A finished basement or finished And when I have to
go to the basement in my house, it's like, I
bring a hoodie, I bring headlamp.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Bring both her cats for protection.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
No wondering what I'm gonna find.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
I'm always like mine's got you know, wine, wrecks and treadmill.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
And she's an adult.
Speaker 6 (03:44):
Sometimes, so you know. And I have a closet that
is full of photos.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
And so when I came downstairs, I actually had a
photo in a frame on display. I'm like, oh, I
forgot about that picture. And I went into the closet
and I was just looking through. I don't have them
in any kind of of organized fashion. But I was
just pulling out pictures, pulling out pictures, and I came
across one. It was a picture of me in the
middle of Sean Stockton from Boys to Men and DiAngelo,
(04:11):
and I'm like, oh wow, this must have been definitely
in Philadelphia, because Boys to Men in Philadelphia, and I
associate so much of my time with DeAngelo in Philadelphia.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
But it was actually at WBLS in New York.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
It's a legendary radio station, and I happened to be
the music director when his first album came out. So
the only way I knew that is that I zoomed
in on the well. I looked closely at the picture,
and I could see a reflection of the call letters
through the glass in the studio, and I'm like, that
was WBLS. But his first album came out in nineteen
(04:51):
ninety ninety five, five right July of ninety five, and
I was at WBLS. But one of my favorite songs
from the same album came out in ninety six, and
I was at Power ninety nine in Philadelphia.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Four singles from this album.
Speaker 6 (05:07):
Yes So.
Speaker 5 (05:10):
Lady was the third single, and by that time I
was in Philadelphia and the guy was going out with
We were in the car and we were writing on
seventy six and I remember getting off the highway right
by thirtieth Street train station and he said, this song
reminds me of you. He says, this is our song,
(05:39):
and it was Lady, and I listened to the lyrics
and I'm.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
Like, oh, that was just so sweet. This is gonna
be the song we sing in our wedding. Well that
never happened.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
He just said, because you are a lady.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
No, no, no, he was. He loved whoever that song
was about.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
There was a great deal of love for the person
in that song or the item it might not have.
You know, some people referred to their car as a lady.
I don't know exactly who the song was about or
intended for. So anyway, I discovered that I was actually
in New York when his first album came out.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
So was D'Angelo.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Because sometimes how it works in at least the radio
side I know, is sometimes an artist gets introduced to
people before they have anything out, like, oh, so and
so was in town. I just wanted you to meet them.
They're going to have a record, we're going to be
playing it for you eventually. Did you meet D'Angelo before
you heard the music? Had you heard of him before
(06:34):
you met him? And what was your first impression of
whatever the first song was that you heard.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
So, considering that that was a million years ago, I
don't exactly know, but if I were a betting woman,
I would say that I met him before I heard
his music. I probably met him through the channels at
Emi Records, because I remember the people that worked there.
There was a guy who was head of promotions named
Dave Rosa's I think it was, and we.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Were tight.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
And we would always talk music and he would always
let me know what was coming up. And so I
had other friends on the staff there, and I know
he worked with Black Men United, which had a bunch
of artists that I also had worked some with, which
was Brian McKnight Boys to Men, and he was involved
with that project. So when I saw that photo, I
(07:23):
thought to myself, is that was that then? Promoting the
Black Men United project? Before Brown Sugar actually came out?
You know, why were the three of us hanging around
taking photos together? Or maybe Sean Stockton was introducing di'angelo
(07:43):
as a part of bringing his music to the radio station.
But I get the sense from that moment that it
was before that album came out and that they were
letting me know, because that was very common to hear
music before the artist came out. For example, it was
Maxwell before his music came out. You know, they came
(08:06):
to me and like, we know you're gonna like this.
We're gonna give it to you before it's out. We're
gonna we're gonna leak it to you. They leaked it
to me and we played it.
Speaker 6 (08:14):
We didn't say who the artist was before it came out.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
He said it was a mystery artist. We just want
people to hear it. And so that kind of thing
was common. So if I were to be a betting woman,
I would say that moment was before his album came out,
and I was meeting him, getting to know him, him
getting to know me before I before the album was out.
And then of course as soon as I heard it,
I'm like, this is music. This sounds like a live
(08:45):
music venue. And I can feel and smell the smoke
in the air, I can hear the chatter at the tables,
I can see the full ash trays sitting on the
phone full Ash trays I can hear the glasses clinking
with ice. You know, that was vibe of the music
on this album. It reminded me of live music, even
(09:07):
though it was a.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Recording where a lot of people were experienced were more
combining hip hop and.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, yeah, I really wanted to talk to you about that,
like being in that place and time. This this genre,
(09:35):
neo soul, that's like what everyone you know, that's what
we're That's what we're calling it, right D'Angelo, And I'm like,
I want to know what you think about that, about
what that, what that means, what that what that genre is,
if you think that's a real genre, or what are
your thoughts on that topic?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Were you part of the neosulification of soul music?
Speaker 5 (09:57):
So there's so many interesting stories about neo soul. Number one,
D'Angelo did not like that label. I thought I remembered that,
but his manager k Don Masenberg is the one who
kind of coined that phrase, and it was a kind
of a specific sound and when I was in Philadelphia,
it was like very prevalent, But really what it was
(10:22):
was just really good R and B music by talented musicians.
And I think they called it. He called it neo
because hip hop had really come in and taking its
place in the market. But it was laced with R
and B because a lot of it was sampling from
R and B records.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
It was sampling from all kinds of records.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
And you know, I grew up in the seventies and eighties,
and you know a lot of the sounds of especially
the seventies music, was what I was hearing. In the nineties,
you talked about sly Stone, you could hear elements of
Di'angelo's sly Stone's influence in Di'angelo's music, you could hear
(11:03):
you could definitely hear Prince And I think I read
a story that his father came home when he was
three years old, DeAngelo's father and heard him playing a
Prince song on the piano at age three, and that's
when he knew that his son was destined for something
greater in the music world. But you heard those elements
(11:24):
because these are people who mastered their instruments and their sound, and.
Speaker 6 (11:31):
Things kind of shifted.
Speaker 7 (11:32):
In the eighties to a more electronic sound, and then
hip hop became a thing in the early nineties and
more R and b was.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
They wanted to call it neo soul because they didn't
want it to sound like he was old music, like
it was from the seventies.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Write sixth But that's what it sounded like, and that
was beautiful about it.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
That's what it confused me a lot, actually, because I thought, so,
it's like, aren't nan my mom's a soul singer, right,
and she I grew up listening to a lot of
the same influences that you know that DiAngelo grew up with.
And I so I've kind of always deferred to listening
to like the influences rather than the people who were influenced,
(12:16):
because I'm like, why do I need to listen to
someone trying to sound like Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gak.
Can just listen to that, right, But uh, this is
like the one where there this is like way more
baby making ish, not really uh if you actually listen
to Prince, But like I think, uh, it was it's
a lot. I think it would have made my mom
(12:36):
uncomfortable listening to like DiAngelo, And that's why I never
heard it as a kid, Yeah, because she's like, doesn't like,
you know, curse words?
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Okay, So well, The funny thing is my favorite song
on an album is She's damn motherfucker.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Yeah, that is freaking brilliant.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
It is.
Speaker 6 (12:52):
That is a brilliant song. I love, love love that song.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So I'm sorry, no it is.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
And that's but I think that I'm That's what I'm
realizing is the main difference is that sort of like
a newer type of language that would be more comfortable
with like the younger audience. And I just wonder what
actually is the difference she does. It's like I was
(13:30):
never a fan of R and B, like the genre
as a whole, Like I like individual artists, right, but
it's like, what is R and B rhythm and blues?
What is like there's that is so much of just
like modern music can also fit into the R and
B genre.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
Well, I mean R and B is as vast and
as unique as people if you ask me, because there's
so many different ways to call a record R and B.
Speaker 6 (13:58):
There's you know, you had your soul, you had your.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
You actually had what was it called hip hop soul?
Speaker 6 (14:07):
Hip hop soul, You also had soul music.
Speaker 5 (14:10):
Then you also had blues music, which really to me
wasn't rhythm in blues music. But then there was neo
soul and you know, all these different fonts, good, yep,
all of it, you know, and it's so it's it's
really to me music that had a rhythm. But what
(14:31):
I liked about what di'angelo was doing was this sound.
Speaker 6 (14:35):
The way it sounded. It sounded, it wasn't super polished.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Not and I loved it.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
You brought that up because I was listening to Untitled
from the second record. Obviously, that is probably his most
iconic moment, the music video for that song where he's
just naked, and I remember I remember seeing like the
premiere of that video on MTV as a child.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
And being like, huh, okay, he's in good shape.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, the first time, you know, you ever attracted to him.
Man realizing But.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
There's there's a part in that song and maybe i'll
I'll layer it in here.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Where you hear just like like finger noises on the bass.
Speaker 6 (15:19):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Here, like the speaking sort of. They would never allow.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
That sound on a record today, especially the bass is
like so specifically mixed in music nowadays. It's there's not
You're not supposed to hear any extra noise. It's supposed
to fit into a very particular pocket.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
No.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
When I heard that, I was like, oh, this is why,
because Andrew texted me He's like this, this is so good,
Like I can't you know, I can't wait for you
to listen to this. And when I did listen, I
was like, Oh, it's the bass. That's why Andrew's faking
it is.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
The records are produced not to be like vocal records.
He's not just the singer of the band. He is
leading the band. And it's not he's not featuring like
himself his piano or his guitar or his vocals over
other things. This is about creating a complete arrangement.
Speaker 5 (16:28):
He was an instrument, yeah, and you know, but not
just his voice. But as he played, he was like,
to me, it was all one thing. It was all one,
you know, one thing, him playing, him singing, him creating.
It was it was all mixed together because it was
(16:50):
just so beautiful soul.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
And the records sound live. And yeah, not everyone encourages that,
especially if you're on a big label doing a big
pop record. You're not like encouraging your bass player to
fill space where you could just be showing off what
you do, like like, this is a guy who clearly
went to church as a child.
Speaker 6 (17:14):
Yeah, his father was a minister and.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Was hearing a lot of gospel music for sure, yeah as.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
A kid, but also those strong jazz influences, strong jazz.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Probably was in jazz bands. If I had to guess that, I.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Don't know, yeah, I that I think I don't.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I did not know that the auteur stuff about Dangelo,
and I think that's definitely what kind of slowed me
down getting into him, because I, you know, I'm used
to hearing R and B singers, you know, and they're
singers really and the beat is Ryan mknight yeah, or
(17:54):
you know, you know, I don't even want to say
his name, but R Kelly, for example, amazing singer, amazing artist,
everything else we can throw away.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, But like I think.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
It wasn't until researching him and realizing, oh, he's an artist.
He created, he created this whole sound, but also a
whole world like you described that you can feel in
the music because it's the lyrics are repetitive, like on
this first album. They're they're lovely, but it's not like
(18:32):
super complicated. It's not what you would normally expect from
someone who's just a singer, right because you want more
complex lyrics. But realizing like, oh he created this whole
thing totally clicked for me. Why he's such a celebrated artist.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
Yeah, he deserves all the celebration. It's funny.
Speaker 7 (18:49):
I was.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
My actual favorite song that he sings on is one
with Lauren Hill. Though oh nothing even matters.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
I can't. I can't really separate, you know, their careers
almost and it's I didn't realize that he was on
Lauren Hill's Miseducation of Laurence Hill because they are both
they're of that same period. They have a very small
body of work with just their name on it. Dangelo
(19:22):
did a bunch of features after between his last two records.
Speaker 6 (19:25):
But she had the fujis before too true.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
But there was like there's a long period where it's
there's nothing in the discography, and I wonder if maybe
they went through some of the same things as far
as getting super famous and then being like I don't
think I want to do this anymore, or I.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Don't want to do it the way I'm doing it.
Speaker 6 (19:52):
I would say no, Yeah, I would say no.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
She went through some things that she just went through,
and he went through some things that he you went through,
and I think you're more on point with with DeAngelo
in that regard, because.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
When he did.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
That music video that was so iconic and they turned
him into a sex symbol, that was something that he
never wanted and he's you know, he made that known
and you know, he wanted to make music not necessarily
be objectified. But it brought attention to his music. But
(20:31):
it was something that did not sit right for him,
it seems, and I think that's where he backed off,
because if that's what I have to do, I don't
know if I want to do this.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
He didn't want to be usher where there's like the
part of the show where he takes his shirt off.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Which is I I think it's so interesting.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
Yeah, I very different artists though, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
More different.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
But I think that is so funny because come on,
the music is sexy and he's talking about, you know,
(21:18):
sensual things. So I get not wanting to be like
always naked and having to have abs all the time.
But it's also there's a reason that that video worked
perfectly for the sound.
Speaker 6 (21:33):
But did you hear it first or see it first?
I heard it first.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I mean, yeah, of course, that video. It was the
first thing I ever saw sag in.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Right, So most people heard the song when I first
saw the video, right, I heard the song now twenty.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Years yeah, yeah, totally where.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
I didn't connect it to the video, And it was like,
this is a beautiful song.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
That's what I associate with this kind of sound.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
And like when you said you know that this was
your song with your who you were dating at the time,
I was like, oh my god. If I was of
age when this came out, Like yeah, so you know,
(22:20):
I think there is something to that, and and you know,
so much respect for him, of course, But I do
think that it is an interesting conversation considering how many
you know, female artists don't don't get to say, oh,
I don't want to be sexy, I don't want to
be objective, I don't want to be hot. Doesn't matter
(22:41):
even what you do, even for you, I'm sure we
all experience it, no matter what job you have. Actually,
as a woman, you have to appear a certain amount
of attractive. So I don't know, it's funny because I'm
sure he would be interested in having that conversation himself.
Speaker 5 (22:59):
It's funny you should say that because I got into
radio because people couldn't see me. That was one of
the one of the attraction, not the only attraction, but
one of the attractions. So it didn't used to matter
all the time. But I hear what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, no, I just it's interesting, and you know, I
would say it is a generational thing that that now
it's like, no matter what career you have, you have
to brand yourself. You have to look good on social media,
you have to be able to be like a frontward
facing person. So I so I take it for granted
that that is that's it's no longer optional, correct.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
So I so I think from.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
My perspective when I hear that, I'm like, it's just complicated,
I because I totally get it. I totally get it.
And he's a he's an artist, and he's a he
was a producer. I feel like that was what he
really kept doing from before he before his album continuously
he was a part of the creation of music. And
(23:58):
so I understand not wanting to be frontward facing. But
it is funny from from where we are now.
Speaker 5 (24:03):
Yeah, but that's I think part of that is what
led to where we are now. He you know, it's interesting.
I was watching something that was spreading yesterday on social
media about MTV once music became a more visual medium,
meaning like not just on stage. Because a group I
(24:23):
grew up loving was Steely Dan, and they didn't tour,
so you never saw them. You know, you might see
a picture of them on the back of an album cover,
inside an album, not even on the back.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Helen all I want to do on this for us
to have a guest who chooses Steely Dan. That is
maybe the reason I wanted to do this podcast in
the first place.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
So we're gonna do a Steely Van.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah. Why didn't you say that sooner?
Speaker 4 (24:51):
I mean, that's I don't know why it took me
over a year to say that.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, but it's a that's not our first listen, So that.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Was someone else brought up Steely Dam putting it out there.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (25:01):
I love Steely Dan. I mean I'm a die hard
dand fan, and.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
That first tour that they ever went on in the nineties,
I was their front and center, and it was like
a dream come true to me because this is a
you know, so people who love music, they you know,
they want to get as close to it, they want
to get inside of it at least. Okay, I like
to get inside the music that I love, you know,
I want to I want to taste it, I want
to smell it, I want to see it, I want
(25:26):
to experience it. And so I think that's what what
going back to the point that you made, that's what
we're doing now. We're having the visual experience, we're having
the oral experience. We're having all of these experiences. And
it comes with the territory, you know. But I think
for DiAngelo at that time, it's like I get that,
but does it have to be this way? But it worked,
(25:50):
and the people who were marketing that project knew it
would work.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
Yeah, and it did work, and we're still talking about it.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah. I mean, it's like the Golden handcuffs thing.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Do you want to shoot a music video where you're, oh, wait, D'Angelo,
I have an idea for you.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Well, I think he had to get in shape for
that video and then he he he. That's like the
legend says at least that it was like right, it
was basically that he Because the first time I actually
ever really learned about this was actually in a music
video class that I took in college. It was a
weird class, but basically it was that he it was
like soon after he was on tour and people were.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Like, take your shit off, we want to see.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
It, and he like didn't stay in shape like that,
and that was part of I think it was part
of the issue, because he didn't want to spend all
his time in the gym and cutting cutting calorie. Take.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
From what I understand way back then, the lore was
that he had like a certain degree of shyness, if
I'm not mistaken, and they wanted to make it they
were trying to get they were trying to evoke an
emotion in his performance, meaning like the record itself and
(27:14):
then also for the visual and so that's kind of
what I remember the idea coming from.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
But like I said, that was what thirty years ago.
I don't remember a.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
Long time ago, twenty five years ago at least more
than that. But I do believe the idea came from
him being a little shy in front of the camera
and trying to get him to relax, which is like, Okay,
you're gonna take my clothes off and that's gonna make
me relax.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
You didn't want to have like some model.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Being like his girlfriend for the purposes of the video,
he thought, like they thought that was going to be
super awkward, so it was like, well, how about this, right,
and it probably turned out better.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
It's also beautifully shyy it.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Is, so then the audience gets to be the hot
lady that he's talking about in the video. Yeah, but
he's I mean, he's beautiful regardless of like without his
beautiful soul, but he's just.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Like a pretty pretty guy.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
So it's one of those things where yeah, totally, as
an artist, like people are like, I want to take
every everything about you, I want some of it, and like,
I mean.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
That to me is a problem.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
It totally, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 6 (28:24):
That's a that's a problem of another.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Especially for black I think for black artists especially. I
think that like when I think about so many like
white rock and roll guys like nobody, I mean, some
of them are sex symbols, but for the most part
they can just like exist.
Speaker 6 (28:43):
We're not owned by their existence.
Speaker 5 (28:49):
And so that's the piece I think that that you're
kind of getting at that you.
Speaker 6 (28:53):
Know, here I I.
Speaker 5 (28:56):
Kind of own my existence over here, but here my
existence is being owned because I'm not necessarily I get it,
but I didn't necessarily choose it.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
And I'm not going to say that.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
I'm going to say that the majority of artists sometime
in their life went through something like that where they
didn't get to make the choice. It's like, this is
what's going to be good for your career, this is
what we are investing in.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
D d Well.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
In one of our other obituary episodes, we talked about
Black Sabbath and how their first album cover or not
their album cover, the inside of the album was all
inverted crosses and stuff, and they're like this, where did
this come from? The labels like, oh, it's just to
sell records that people are going to go crazy. And
(29:40):
they're like, okay, we're not. We're not Satanists.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
They're like, yeah, a lot of people in America think
you are. But that's good.
Speaker 6 (29:49):
But yeah, I would I would agree with you.
Speaker 7 (29:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I think it's funny because I have this argument with
my with like some of my people in comedy, my
friends in comedy about like it's like, oh, I mean
I can be very not nihilistic, but I think I
always say pragmatic about it. People are like, oh, I
don't want to be pigeonholed as this specific type of
(30:14):
comedian or I don't want to be. I don't want
to do gimmicks, And I'm like, you'd be lucky to
be pigeonholed. Nobody knows who we are, so if somebody
wants to recognize us for something we do, that's ideal
at the beginning. So and then you get but then
you do get sucked into it and then it stops
being yours and I do, And it's like, I think,
all like, I do have so much respect for Dangel
(30:36):
because it's not like he said, It's not like he
didn't lose out from saying no to that. He he
made huge sacrifice with like whatever financially basically, not by
not sacrificing his integrity with his music, with his image,
with his vision in general.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Right, how did you Helen as someone who's there from
the beginning? Experians like the kind of explosion of his
career because I feel like this first record put him
at a level, and then the second record, Voodoo with
the song untitled that we're talking about that put him
on a whole another level.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, tie it in, tie it in with the song.
I love that.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
To me because it's to me, he was already there.
He was there on the first album.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
So this is like.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
Any artist, you know, if you're there from the beginning,
you're like, oh my god, they are here. And then
then you got the people that come in on the
second album or the third album, or after they've died
and they realize this is great.
Speaker 6 (31:42):
But they don't.
Speaker 5 (31:43):
They weren't there for the trajectory, which to me was
that of that level. It's just not as many people
knew about him, if that makes any sense to you.
So musically he was top shelf and on the first album,
second album, top shelf, he was a top shelf artist.
Speaker 6 (32:02):
He was art, and.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
It's just that other people became more familiar with his
art and therefore therefore increased the numbers of people who
knew about him. I don't think that he as an
artist necessarily exploded. I think he was an explosion from
the start, and it's just more people saw the explosion,
if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
At the time, you didn't feel like, oh, the second
record is different. He's he's trying so much.
Speaker 6 (32:31):
I didn't feel like it was different.
Speaker 5 (32:33):
I'm trying, like he was already spectacular and he's now
spectacular again, And to me, that's the that's the really
cool thing. When you can do spectacular over and over again,
that is impressive. I think that's That's where I'm trying
to get at. It's like he was already spectacular, it's
just more people knew he was spectacular on that second
(32:56):
album when they came across video hit video, hit video,
and we're not talking about music, We're talking about a video,
and the video led people to the music, right.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
I mean, as I just listened over the weekend to
the first two albums and nothing struck me as, oh,
this is the album after he got famous, Like there was.
There's nothing different sonically on either that would hint at
an artist who's trying to land at a certain spot
on the charts or appeal to a certain community.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I would say that they totally agree with that.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
But I did feel a bit of a looser kind
of energy with the first album.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
It was.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It did feel a little bit more I don't know,
a little bit less produced, a little bit more organic,
maybe because I also listened to like the B side
mixtape part of it and it did it Yeah. To me,
it was a little bit I could I felt that
I felt that grittier.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, less polished, less polished.
Speaker 5 (34:03):
Intentionally polished, because when we use the word polish, some
people think polish means it's better, you know, But I
think polish means that you just took an edge off
of it when I'm talking about music. That for me,
I like an unpolished edge in my music. Yes, I
like a raw I like a raw emotion. I like
a raw sound. I love hearing the strings when the
(34:26):
musician is touching them, you know.
Speaker 6 (34:30):
I love the ambient.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Noise, the voice crack, everything like that.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
That's one of the best things that Alicia Keys does
is when the voice cracks when she's a little bit flat,
like like, that's what lets us know that you're really
doing it. And I think people are going to come
to value that a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yes, that's what AI could never do. Don't get me
starting like it actually.
Speaker 6 (34:55):
Unless you're talking about Alan Ivers.
Speaker 8 (35:10):
I feel like he's seen of course. Yeah, presentation very
much like that album. I mean it was it felt like.
Speaker 5 (35:23):
When you when you listen to Brown Sugar, it feels
like you're sitting in a small venue watching him perform.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
The music video for that song is like in a
jazz club.
Speaker 8 (35:32):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 6 (35:37):
I recall seeing him in small venues and larger venues.
Speaker 5 (35:41):
I don't know how many times I saw him in
what capacity, but usually some of them were Most of
them were closed events as opposed to open to the public,
just because I like those kind of events.
Speaker 6 (35:51):
I love intimate.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Let me tell you about the girl. Maybe I should
a man of and the name was Brian. See, we'd
been making love constantly.
Speaker 6 (36:06):
The fewer people in the room, the better.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
Caroa just got to see Sam Smith then underplay in.
Speaker 5 (36:12):
Yeah, that kind of thing is great. Hey, I saw
Sam Smith before Sam Smith begun to take off right
in our own building. Yeah, and I'm like eyes, like,
holy cow, who is this guy? And then less than
a year he was in Madison Square Garden and it
(36:34):
was good in Madison Square Garden, but it was so.
Speaker 6 (36:37):
Amazing in the iHeart Radio Music Theater.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
And when you have an artist who can pull it
off in a small room because they're just good, yeah, talent.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
That's that's where it's at.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, I mean it doesn't really compare.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
I we talked about this before in other episodes, about
the whole arena show thing, and I can never see
myself spending money to pay for a Beyonce concert, for example,
I would rather see a random lady that I've never
heard of that I can actually be It's an actual
(37:14):
show where I'm actually hearing the music and I'm seeing
the musicians right there.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
It's it's totally different. It's it's totally different.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
I think the arena shows are kind of more it's
almost more like a circus or like a spectacle kind
of event.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
Which is if this, if this was a hologram, it wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Be any difference exactly.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And that's an incredible feat And but I'm like, I'm
impressed by the production. I'm impressed by the creative stage
management and costume design, and it's very cool.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
But I'm like, that's not that's not going to that's not.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
The experience of seeing an artist and going to a concert.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
So that is that is really special.
Speaker 5 (38:01):
I mean, I I I like all the different kind
of experiences. And I've had the benefit of being in
this business and not having to pay for a lot
of stuff, you know, so I try to pay now.
Speaker 6 (38:11):
Like I just went to see David Byrne, which was incredible.
Speaker 5 (38:17):
David Byrne is the former head, uh leading the Talking Heads,
some former head and he was in a medium Yeah,
the Talking is head and he.
Speaker 6 (38:26):
Was in a medium size venue. But it was it
was so visually beautiful, it was so orally beautiful. It
was it was everything that was done well.
Speaker 5 (38:35):
I've been to big arena shows where I had the
best time, and I've been to uh performances in a
little lounge downstairs where it was spectacular. So I I
enjoy both, but I do like the intimate better and
being able to see DiAngelo in that kind of situation,
(38:56):
an intimate one mm priceless.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Well that's like.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
That's that is the closest thing to the vibe that
he created. Yeah, it doesn't sound like an arena. These
aren't like big ballads.
Speaker 5 (39:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
It feels like you described you know.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
To come back, everybody sing along parts. It doesn't seem true.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
But give the mic to the audience.
Speaker 6 (39:20):
Yeah, no, I call and response. But that's a very
church thing, that's true.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
But those you know, we're totally off topic.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
But I think that it's like when you when you
go to those huge concerts, it's more about your relationship
with like the person who's sitting next to you. The
other audience members rather than there's like that distance between
you and the audience.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
And I think that that's what di'angelo.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Really take, like strips away, like even just listening to
the record that there is.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yeah, you're definitely in the room. Yeah sound yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
So I think it's great.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yes, And you know, I, uh, this has been so
cool talking to you. We like we talked about the
album kind.
Speaker 6 (40:08):
Of yeah, yeah, talked about the album.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
You know, I wanted to mention, well, I told you
my favorite song on the album, which was definitely not
a single, And you know, I just think back to
lyrically and how I think he surprised people, like what's
brown Sugar about? I think that was like a big
question back then. Is it about a woman? Is it
(40:38):
about weed?
Speaker 6 (40:40):
Is it about you know, what you put in a
sweet potato pie?
Speaker 5 (40:43):
No? And you know, I think he he he used
words so beautifully on that album, even with curse words.
Speaker 6 (40:52):
He you know, throughout the whole song, throughout the whole album.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
That's beautifully put. I think also the way that it
means something different each time he says it. Yeah, and
you're kind of trying to figure out, like what even
just looking at the title.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
You know, shit, damn motherfucker. What is he what is
he saying that about?
Speaker 5 (41:15):
And you're like, I had my ideas, you know what
I think each person had. I mean, you could be
in traffic, shit to damnly motherfucker, or you could be in.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Bed totally, totally, totally, could.
Speaker 5 (41:29):
Be having a meal one of the best meals you
ever had, or you could be having one of the
worst meals you've ever had.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Shit damn all of.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Those and no, And it's yeah, the combination, the combination
of those words together, each one separately, yea and then
with his voice like which.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Totally it contrasts it.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
It contrasts like those words because it's just so voice
of an angel. But uh, it's been such a pleasure
talking to you, Helen, Like.
Speaker 6 (42:03):
Thank you guys for welcoming, welcome you onto your show.
I really enjoyed this.
Speaker 7 (42:08):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
Yeah, it's always nice when we have someone who has
a little bit of history with the topic.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
That was our first Listen tell us about yours at
the next UC Black Show November first, at nine pm.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
A upright, citizens, frigate, it's my birthday, so be there
or be blame.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
Be over catch Helen mid days on I want to
success with them. Thank you all right, We'll be back
next week with a new episode, Thank You.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
When Rang
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