August 28, 2025 • 26 mins
Spotify is using weird rules to fine and de-platform independent artists from its service — are these honest mistakes or is something more nefarious going on?
Last week, Andrew’s band, One Hundred Thousand, got a notice from its distributor that one song from its 2021 album was flagged for “bot activity” and that the entire album was therefore being removed from Spotify, and all other digital streaming services as a penalty.
No one at Spotify appears to be concerned enough to respond to our requests for help and there is no apparent appeals process for artists who say they had nothing to do with the alleged bots.
OHT is not alone.
A number of independent artists are complaining that the world’s largest digital streaming music platform is throttling them for “bot activity” on their catalogs, removing their music and charging them bogus penalties.
Reddit is filling up with threads on the subject, and Spotify’s silence is only fueling belief that this is part of the company’s strategy to gradually replace independent music with A.I.-generated slop to reduce royalty payouts and bolster its profits.
Please share your thoughts with us via Instagram @AtFirstListenPodcast.
Subscribe so you don’t miss an episode of At First Listen!
Last week, Andrew’s band, One Hundred Thousand, got a notice from its distributor that one song from its 2021 album was flagged for “bot activity” and that the entire album was therefore being removed from Spotify, and all other digital streaming services as a penalty.
No one at Spotify appears to be concerned enough to respond to our requests for help and there is no apparent appeals process for artists who say they had nothing to do with the alleged bots.
OHT is not alone.
A number of independent artists are complaining that the world’s largest digital streaming music platform is throttling them for “bot activity” on their catalogs, removing their music and charging them bogus penalties.
Reddit is filling up with threads on the subject, and Spotify’s silence is only fueling belief that this is part of the company’s strategy to gradually replace independent music with A.I.-generated slop to reduce royalty payouts and bolster its profits.
Please share your thoughts with us via Instagram @AtFirstListenPodcast.
Subscribe so you don’t miss an episode of At First Listen!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to act First listen the music podcast for people
who don't always get the hype but want to.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm Andrew, I'm Dominie, and today we're talking. That's Spotify,
the platform that I specifically don't mention by name for
obvious reasons being that I work for a competing company.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Yeah, but now I'm really competing.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, we're all kind of competing.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I've been wronged.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I am. I am excited to get the hype of
like all of this. I think it seems like it's
a new, even worse era in uh getting artists appropriately
you know, compensated.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Or inappropriately uncompensated. Yeah, reverse reverse verse compensation.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Is there a word for that?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Even stealing?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Oh okay, yeah, okay, I've heard that. I've heard of extortion.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I think there.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
So Spotify has been problematic for a while, mostly stemming
from the fact that, in terms of distributing music foreign
artist in a digital age, it's kind of been the
only game in town, so much so that it's like
news when a major artist removes their music from Spotify.
(01:43):
You know, remember the Taylor Swift Dark Ages, which she
was like not anymore.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
That was hard for me. I was like, no, not.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
My sailor swift need I need my tailor.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I need to listen to you belong with me.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It needs to be in this second lowest quality audio. Yes,
that I can possibly achieve.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, No, I was actually I was actually like Apple
Music and like tidle person even for a while. I've
been through my YouTube premium phase shouting out everybody today,
and I ended up. I now am like a pretty
like loyal Spotify, only in the sense that I'm only
(02:29):
paying for one of these things. And I will say like,
in terms of listening to music, it is the easiest
and that's at a cost.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, and the cost is all kinds of bad stuff.
Especially in the last year, we've heard more and more
of the alleged evils that Spotify is perpetrating. Where now
they're just investing in wardrones.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Is that right you read this?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
No, the CEO is investing in war drone technology.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Yeah, it's pretty nuts.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
That doesn't have anything to do with me.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Oh it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
And it's like, this is a Swedish person doing this,
just like co signing war crimes.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
We're paying Spotify, saying Spotify dollars a month or whatever.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
People with drones.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, I'm sure only a small percentage of what I
just said is true, but part of it is true,
and it's enough to be unsettling.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
It's true, it's true. I mean, that's the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
But that's not what today's episode.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
No, it isn't. We could have a political episode, but we.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Don't steer a little bit.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
We don't have time and we don't have the qualifications.
But what Andrew, what's going on with you with Spotify?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
So we're recording this on Wednesday, August twenty seventh, Last Thursday,
the twenty first. First, my band got a notification from
a platform called Tunecore, which is a musical distribution.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Service and one.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Hundred thousand did I not mention the name of.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Min no you said my band?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
That? Yeah, that's that tracks. I'm not good at promoting it.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
So we got this notice from Tunecore, which is the
company that we use to uh furnish these digital streaming
services with our music. So through Tunecore, the songs go
to Spotify, they go to Apple, they go to iHeartRadio,
they go to Amazon, they go to Title. All the platforms.
(04:41):
It is filtered through this service called tunecore. That's also
how we get paid the royalties from those those streaming revenues.
So we get this notice from Tooncore saying that there
has been bot activity on our song Virgo from our
twenty two twenty one album Zodiac. The bot activity occurred
(05:04):
on May twenty fourth. There were about one thousand streams
randomly on this song Virgo. So Spotify reported the activity
to tune Core. Spotify removed the entire album from its platform,
and then after getting this report, Tunecore in kind removed
the album from all the other platforms.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Okay, So first of all, I have this, I have
a question about the mechanics of this, because this is
already insane that you, with all that Spotify does that
you have to hire a middleman to like alse to
even get onto Spotify. Can you explain that briefly?
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Like not really?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
No, no, Like why, like what does tuonecre do?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
So this is how we like plan a release, gotcha?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
So this is how the record is availed on all
the platforms at the same time, in the same quote
unquote packaging, with the same artwork and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Okay, understood.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
I guess It's not like.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I sign into Spotify and upload my tracks like it
SoundCloud or something, right, because Spotify is not a creator platform,
it's a streaming platform.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I'm just Spotify would love to take that business as
well if they could.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I'm sure they will try. So a thousand streams on
this song, Virgo. So this is a four year old
maybe five year old song, because the single I Think
came out in twenty twenty and the album came out
in the following year. Spotify pla pays about four tenths
of a cent per stream. It's a variable rate, but
(06:48):
about four tenths is the average, So that.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Figures gay artists four dollars.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
We made four dollars in one day off of one
song wow, and got our album removed entirely. So the implication,
of course from Spotify is that we hired bots to
jack up the plays on our one song and they
(07:14):
were like, no, no, no, no, no, we cannot allow
this type of activity on Spotify. We must remove the
whole album. And the best part is that we get
penalized for this activity with a ten dollars fee for
the for each instance that is detected.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Like one thousand dollars, ten dollars, ten thousand.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
It's no, it's that one day of activity of that one.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So this is another one of the questions that I
have is if this happened on two songs, would it
be twenty dollars? I'm not sure or does it need
to happen at the same time. That's one activity. So
there's the The most for us strading thing about this
situation is that the album is removed unilaterally. We didn't
(08:06):
have a say, we didn't have there's no formal appeal process,
and there is no one who's replying to our questions
about it. It's also we are far from the only
independent artist to be going through this. My drummer just
(08:27):
texted us this morning a credit post from two days
ago that has now hundreds of comments on it, where
a gentleman from a band called among Authors said that
his band has been hit with these types of penalties
multiple times over the last few weeks. Their entire catalog
has been erased. They even got penalized after they proactively
(08:50):
removed their remaining music from these platforms.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
They got charged like another forty dollars.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I don't like I don't I you don't like. I
don't like this. There's so many things there that it's like, Okay,
so if Justin Bieber did this and got a ten
million plays in a day, is it also ten dollars?
That's that's my first question.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
No idea, because I didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, yeah, And then that also, I like, it was
to me, I'm like, how does this benefit anyone? Like,
I like, what do you have a theory on on
because it seems like it's an it's just an error.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
It seems like an error.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Or if it wasn't an error, why would they be
doing it?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So the prevailing concern for me today is that we
have lots more music on these platforms. We have another
studio album on Spotify, We have an EP on Spotify. Actually,
all ten tracks from or twelve tracks from that Zodiac
album are on Spotify because they all came out as singles.
(10:10):
It was the album track that playing of the track
on the album that prompted the record and the song
to be removed, but not the single. So obviously is
that if there was someone who is thinking about this
of either trying to proactively screw.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Us, why or if do you have enemies? I don't know,
but it's like there's a bunch of bands doing that.
This has happened, right, This.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Has happened to a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
So it could be that someone is intentionally messing with Spotify,
knowing about this policy, and they're trying to get artists
up in arms angry at them, and it seems like
independent artists are the easiest targets, Like I don't think
(11:01):
you know someone like Justin Bieber, a major artist like
that has a record label and a whole machine behind them.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
We mentioned the Taylor Swift thing a few years ago.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
She removed her music from Spotify, specifically over some dispute
with the company. That was resolved and her music was restored.
But she has representatives who are actually going to get
in the room with people who matter and make decisions
that Spotify one hundred thousand, the band from the progressive
(11:30):
heavy metal band from New Jersey, does not have those
avenues at least, I don't think.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, I'm shocked to hear that. I mean, but no,
that makes that I understood. That's an interesting theory. I'll
say that's an interesting theory because it's just weird, like
the only like, there's so many things that Spotify does
to make money and it does. It just doesn't. I
(12:00):
feel like it's possible that there is. I think it's
possible that it was just like an error with like
over zealous what is it called, like terms of service spots.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Okay or whatever software monitors Spotify for bot activity, for
legal activity is going bananas.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, and they just don't care. Like you said, there's
no one who's like looking out for y'all. And I'm mine.
I'm like, it could be Spotify bots.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, I mean that's another thing. And I don't want
this episode to be super long, but there's a lot
of theories as to why this might be happening and
a lot of very scary potential realities of it. So
let's take a quick break and we'll come back with
the artificial intelligence of it all on Efforts listing, and
(13:06):
we're back on that first listen.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I'm Andrew, I'm Dominique.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
And we're talking about what is going on with Spotify
and deplatforming independent artists like my own band one hundred thousand.
So the artificial intelligence theories and aspects of this. It
is not a secret that Spotify has been using generative
(13:31):
AI to create music on its platforms, which they then
embed into playlists. From what I understand so far, this
is mostly like instrumental soft piano music, flutes, and you know,
(13:53):
sound and stuff. People who just like to put something
on to have it to have sound happening. This is
the type of These are the avenues that Spotify is
using to. I don't know if it's generate revenue because
an AI composer does not ask where its money is,
or maybe just reduce its costs, because for the very
(14:17):
small amount of money that Spotify does pay artists, it
amounts to millions of dollars. You know, it's an incredible
platform where millions, if not billions of songs exist. Even
comparing it to other streaming platforms that I've used, Spotify
tends to have more complete catalogs for artists.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
So maybe this is just.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
We're reducing our costs by millions of dollars creating this
musac basically and putting them on these popular playlists for
people who probably don't care about the human beings creating
the music that they're listening to, let alone, if it's
artificial intelligence making it.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And it's just also on auto play, so it's like
you can put on your favorite ambient beats to plait
to study slash work too, and the first one plays
and then the next one that plays, you don't even
notice it's different, but it's some.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
AI and that's kind of the point of that type
of music.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
And I there's a growing number of drinking problem Andrew.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I spilled water on myself and then I choked on it.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
There's a there's a ton of independent artists, like independent
people who post create, generate and post AI music, a
lot of children's music. So it makes it does make
sense on a capitalist way that they're like, oh, why
(16:03):
are we letting all these all these losers get all
the money on the AI train, Let's take it for ourselves.
But that the thing is another option that a company
could do that would fit within laws that should exist
is be like, we're not allowing AI generated music, artificially
(16:29):
generated music on the platform at all. To compete with
our artists. They are required to do whatever they can
to get that shareholder shareholder sweet sweet love in it's
the technical term for it.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
You touched on something that is I think maybe the
most insidious part of it. So ambient music is one thing,
but also this has leaked into children's music so you
think about styles of music that are not sophisticated, that
are not meant to be listened to critically, and so
(17:14):
children's music is one of them. And on some of
these Reddit threads about this issue, people are adding that
they have kids and unless they specify a certain artist
when they tell their digital assistant, these are like the
Amazon Echoes, Alexa things of that nature. Unless they specify
(17:38):
an artist when they ask so and so to play
such and such a type of music for their child,
those devices will automatically default to AI generated music.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
And a big part of that is because these entities
shadow entities in our crypto oligarchy that we live in,
are flooding the platforms with like so much music. Yeah,
And it's similar to the to the ghost kitchen thing.
(18:13):
That would be against terms of service. For if you
like posted your song with like five different bands and
like pretended you were five different bands, but you posted
your song five different times, that would be illegal.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
But if you a maze to see which one takes
off exactly, I have a different band, persona different artwork,
everything for the same piece of music, and I'm just
trying to see, like hopefully one of them will vibe
with people.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, and you make like little slight changes to each
one because it's just like a button for them.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And if you are a parent or a person, which
is who don't want to listen to AI, which is
a significant number of people who even if they're not
against it, they would rather not because it's all creepy
and weird and bad.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I mean, if you have if you have children, I
would just I would suggest that you double check the
music that you put on for them. And if anything else,
like the AI generated music is not coming from a
place of morality, it doesn't know human norms. So if
(19:27):
any of this is supposed to be educational, and it's
not going to be, yeah, I mean it's it's just
plagiarizing actual music that's out there and taking ideas and
rhyme schemes and appropriating them into something that sounds credible
but is not actually.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
And and is impossible to create something new. So I like,
at the very at the very most generous, we have enough.
I think we could stop making more like genitive And
I hate even calling it AI actually because it's not intelligence.
It's just like a thing that takes stuff apart and
(20:11):
scrambles it up and then puts it back in a
new order. And it's not intelligent at all. It's a
fancy calculator. It can't have thoughts, it can't have feelings.
That's a part of intelligence. Anyway. I don't like it,
can you tell?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah? Not a fan either.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
So there's the lingering question of is Spotify doing this
to replace real artists with its own creations.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Eventually, I am seething with ree And it's so funny
because it's like, this is a thing that I already
It's not like this is new information that like this
is happening. But I think that anybody who wants to
claim that this is anything other than theft, it's just
like getting around this whole thing of copyright. It's like, oh,
(21:04):
play two notes of a Dolly Parton song on a
YouTube video and you will get thrown in the trash.
But make an AI version of it. You're good.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, and yeah, Well is it wrong to say that
your rage hardens me?
Speaker 1 (21:21):
No?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
No, your rage warms my heart.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
That's the main thing that is the problem is that
everyone's not enraged at it. I get Spotify doing it.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
They're evil, they're clearly very evil company.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, uh it is, well I got so mad, I guless.
I try thought they just got around that that's what
this does. And so with that whole thing, there was
so many people in comment sections being like these who
are like pro AI, they're like democratizing art. How could
(22:00):
it be any more democratized. We democratized it way more
than even potentially benefits the art at times. You know,
everybody's got a podcast these days, you know, like it's like, see,
there's so much availability to make art, and the whole
(22:21):
way it goes is you're supposed to make it and
be really bad at it until you're good enough at
it that everybody's like here, you can have some money
for this, and then if that happens, then you can
make more music and it'll be better and it'll sound better.
And that's the system. And it's already been really hard
(22:44):
to do that, like always to like, you know, earn
money off your art. But now they're using our art
to make there to make money without us and in
turn and using up all the water. It's like for
(23:04):
every guy that makes an AI like that is using
AI to make their to make their thing, to make something.
They're just training the AI to to do it without them,
Like the computer doesn't need you, you're just clicking buttons.
It can click its own buttons. And that's what I
assume Spotify is doing. And that's my other theory though
(23:26):
I like that, I like yours that there's like some
like crypto activist person who's like trying to like get
a bunch of indie bands up in arms so that
they could do a class action lawsuit. But I think
it's very possible that it's like one department of Spotify
is the bot making music stealing department, and they didn't
(23:49):
tell the like bot checker department, and the bot checker
department was like, somebody's stealing these people's music with bots
right now, and uh and then then everybody got penalized.
And then the butt making music stealing department didn't didn't
tell anyone.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Wow are they It's a corporate communication issue. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Anyhow, The bottom line is that I would like people
to be able to hear my music, and Spotify for
not better but worse is a great way for that
to be a reality. I would also like to not
(24:35):
be fined constantly. I don't want a cyber attack on
my music on Spotify. That's not a reality that is
safe for me or anybody. And AI music, I just
don't want it. I'm not interested in it. I want
music that's made by human beings because I am a
human being.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
And I want to.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Hear the ideas and the talents of other human beings.
So I just don't want it. And the morality of
it is complicated, but the reality of it is I
just don't want it.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
There is no reason to do it outside of taking
people's money away because I feel that you're also stealing
my money that I pay them, that I pay them,
which I don't want to do under false pretenses. You're
giving me a counterfeit. I would rather listen to nothing.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
And that's our first thing.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, listen to us on other streaming platforms.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Like at heart Radio, and we'll be back next time
with another completely organic effort's.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Listen to podcast. Thank you for listening to our first
ever randomisode, hope you I but
Speaker 1 (26:01):
He ha
Welcome to act First listen the music podcast for people
who don't always get the hype but want to.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm Andrew, I'm Dominie, and today we're talking. That's Spotify,
the platform that I specifically don't mention by name for
obvious reasons being that I work for a competing company.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Yeah, but now I'm really competing.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, we're all kind of competing.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I've been wronged.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I am. I am excited to get the hype of
like all of this. I think it seems like it's
a new, even worse era in uh getting artists appropriately
you know, compensated.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Or inappropriately uncompensated. Yeah, reverse reverse verse compensation.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Is there a word for that?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Even stealing?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Oh okay, yeah, okay, I've heard that. I've heard of extortion.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I think there.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
So Spotify has been problematic for a while, mostly stemming
from the fact that, in terms of distributing music foreign
artist in a digital age, it's kind of been the
only game in town, so much so that it's like
news when a major artist removes their music from Spotify.
(01:43):
You know, remember the Taylor Swift Dark Ages, which she
was like not anymore.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
That was hard for me. I was like, no, not.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
My sailor swift need I need my tailor.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I need to listen to you belong with me.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It needs to be in this second lowest quality audio. Yes,
that I can possibly achieve.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, No, I was actually I was actually like Apple
Music and like tidle person even for a while. I've
been through my YouTube premium phase shouting out everybody today,
and I ended up. I now am like a pretty
like loyal Spotify, only in the sense that I'm only
(02:29):
paying for one of these things. And I will say like,
in terms of listening to music, it is the easiest
and that's at a cost.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, and the cost is all kinds of bad stuff.
Especially in the last year, we've heard more and more
of the alleged evils that Spotify is perpetrating. Where now
they're just investing in wardrones.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Is that right you read this?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
No, the CEO is investing in war drone technology.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Yeah, it's pretty nuts.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
That doesn't have anything to do with me.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Oh it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
And it's like, this is a Swedish person doing this,
just like co signing war crimes.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
We're paying Spotify, saying Spotify dollars a month or whatever.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
People with drones.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, I'm sure only a small percentage of what I
just said is true, but part of it is true,
and it's enough to be unsettling.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
It's true, it's true. I mean, that's the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
But that's not what today's episode.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
No, it isn't. We could have a political episode, but we.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Don't steer a little bit.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
We don't have time and we don't have the qualifications.
But what Andrew, what's going on with you with Spotify?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
So we're recording this on Wednesday, August twenty seventh, Last Thursday,
the twenty first. First, my band got a notification from
a platform called Tunecore, which is a musical distribution.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Service and one.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Hundred thousand did I not mention the name of.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Min no you said my band?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
That? Yeah, that's that tracks. I'm not good at promoting it.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
So we got this notice from Tunecore, which is the
company that we use to uh furnish these digital streaming
services with our music. So through Tunecore, the songs go
to Spotify, they go to Apple, they go to iHeartRadio,
they go to Amazon, they go to Title. All the platforms.
(04:41):
It is filtered through this service called tunecore. That's also
how we get paid the royalties from those those streaming revenues.
So we get this notice from Tooncore saying that there
has been bot activity on our song Virgo from our
twenty two twenty one album Zodiac. The bot activity occurred
(05:04):
on May twenty fourth. There were about one thousand streams
randomly on this song Virgo. So Spotify reported the activity
to tune Core. Spotify removed the entire album from its platform,
and then after getting this report, Tunecore in kind removed
the album from all the other platforms.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Okay, So first of all, I have this, I have
a question about the mechanics of this, because this is
already insane that you, with all that Spotify does that
you have to hire a middleman to like alse to
even get onto Spotify. Can you explain that briefly?
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Like not really?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
No, no, Like why, like what does tuonecre do?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
So this is how we like plan a release, gotcha?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
So this is how the record is availed on all
the platforms at the same time, in the same quote
unquote packaging, with the same artwork and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Okay, understood.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
I guess It's not like.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I sign into Spotify and upload my tracks like it
SoundCloud or something, right, because Spotify is not a creator platform,
it's a streaming platform.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I'm just Spotify would love to take that business as
well if they could.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I'm sure they will try. So a thousand streams on
this song, Virgo. So this is a four year old
maybe five year old song, because the single I Think
came out in twenty twenty and the album came out
in the following year. Spotify pla pays about four tenths
of a cent per stream. It's a variable rate, but
(06:48):
about four tenths is the average, So that.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Figures gay artists four dollars.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
We made four dollars in one day off of one
song wow, and got our album removed entirely. So the implication,
of course from Spotify is that we hired bots to
jack up the plays on our one song and they
(07:14):
were like, no, no, no, no, no, we cannot allow
this type of activity on Spotify. We must remove the
whole album. And the best part is that we get
penalized for this activity with a ten dollars fee for
the for each instance that is detected.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Like one thousand dollars, ten dollars, ten thousand.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
It's no, it's that one day of activity of that one.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So this is another one of the questions that I
have is if this happened on two songs, would it
be twenty dollars? I'm not sure or does it need
to happen at the same time. That's one activity. So
there's the The most for us strading thing about this
situation is that the album is removed unilaterally. We didn't
(08:06):
have a say, we didn't have there's no formal appeal process,
and there is no one who's replying to our questions
about it. It's also we are far from the only
independent artist to be going through this. My drummer just
(08:27):
texted us this morning a credit post from two days
ago that has now hundreds of comments on it, where
a gentleman from a band called among Authors said that
his band has been hit with these types of penalties
multiple times over the last few weeks. Their entire catalog
has been erased. They even got penalized after they proactively
(08:50):
removed their remaining music from these platforms.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
They got charged like another forty dollars.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I don't like I don't I you don't like. I
don't like this. There's so many things there that it's like, Okay,
so if Justin Bieber did this and got a ten
million plays in a day, is it also ten dollars?
That's that's my first question.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
No idea, because I didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, yeah, And then that also, I like, it was
to me, I'm like, how does this benefit anyone? Like,
I like, what do you have a theory on on
because it seems like it's an it's just an error.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
It seems like an error.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Or if it wasn't an error, why would they be
doing it?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So the prevailing concern for me today is that we
have lots more music on these platforms. We have another
studio album on Spotify, We have an EP on Spotify. Actually,
all ten tracks from or twelve tracks from that Zodiac
album are on Spotify because they all came out as singles.
(10:10):
It was the album track that playing of the track
on the album that prompted the record and the song
to be removed, but not the single. So obviously is
that if there was someone who is thinking about this
of either trying to proactively screw.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Us, why or if do you have enemies? I don't know,
but it's like there's a bunch of bands doing that.
This has happened, right, This.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Has happened to a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
So it could be that someone is intentionally messing with Spotify,
knowing about this policy, and they're trying to get artists
up in arms angry at them, and it seems like
independent artists are the easiest targets, Like I don't think
(11:01):
you know someone like Justin Bieber, a major artist like
that has a record label and a whole machine behind them.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
We mentioned the Taylor Swift thing a few years ago.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
She removed her music from Spotify, specifically over some dispute
with the company. That was resolved and her music was restored.
But she has representatives who are actually going to get
in the room with people who matter and make decisions
that Spotify one hundred thousand, the band from the progressive
(11:30):
heavy metal band from New Jersey, does not have those
avenues at least, I don't think.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, I'm shocked to hear that. I mean, but no,
that makes that I understood. That's an interesting theory. I'll
say that's an interesting theory because it's just weird, like
the only like, there's so many things that Spotify does
to make money and it does. It just doesn't. I
(12:00):
feel like it's possible that there is. I think it's
possible that it was just like an error with like
over zealous what is it called, like terms of service spots.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Okay or whatever software monitors Spotify for bot activity, for
legal activity is going bananas.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, and they just don't care. Like you said, there's
no one who's like looking out for y'all. And I'm mine.
I'm like, it could be Spotify bots.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, I mean that's another thing. And I don't want
this episode to be super long, but there's a lot
of theories as to why this might be happening and
a lot of very scary potential realities of it. So
let's take a quick break and we'll come back with
the artificial intelligence of it all on Efforts listing, and
(13:06):
we're back on that first listen.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I'm Andrew, I'm Dominique.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
And we're talking about what is going on with Spotify
and deplatforming independent artists like my own band one hundred thousand.
So the artificial intelligence theories and aspects of this. It
is not a secret that Spotify has been using generative
(13:31):
AI to create music on its platforms, which they then
embed into playlists. From what I understand so far, this
is mostly like instrumental soft piano music, flutes, and you know,
(13:53):
sound and stuff. People who just like to put something
on to have it to have sound happening. This is
the type of These are the avenues that Spotify is
using to. I don't know if it's generate revenue because
an AI composer does not ask where its money is,
or maybe just reduce its costs, because for the very
(14:17):
small amount of money that Spotify does pay artists, it
amounts to millions of dollars. You know, it's an incredible
platform where millions, if not billions of songs exist. Even
comparing it to other streaming platforms that I've used, Spotify
tends to have more complete catalogs for artists.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
So maybe this is just.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
We're reducing our costs by millions of dollars creating this
musac basically and putting them on these popular playlists for
people who probably don't care about the human beings creating
the music that they're listening to, let alone, if it's
artificial intelligence making it.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And it's just also on auto play, so it's like
you can put on your favorite ambient beats to plait
to study slash work too, and the first one plays
and then the next one that plays, you don't even
notice it's different, but it's some.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
AI and that's kind of the point of that type
of music.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
And I there's a growing number of drinking problem Andrew.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I spilled water on myself and then I choked on it.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
There's a there's a ton of independent artists, like independent
people who post create, generate and post AI music, a
lot of children's music. So it makes it does make
sense on a capitalist way that they're like, oh, why
(16:03):
are we letting all these all these losers get all
the money on the AI train, Let's take it for ourselves.
But that the thing is another option that a company
could do that would fit within laws that should exist
is be like, we're not allowing AI generated music, artificially
(16:29):
generated music on the platform at all. To compete with
our artists. They are required to do whatever they can
to get that shareholder shareholder sweet sweet love in it's
the technical term for it.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
You touched on something that is I think maybe the
most insidious part of it. So ambient music is one thing,
but also this has leaked into children's music so you
think about styles of music that are not sophisticated, that
are not meant to be listened to critically, and so
(17:14):
children's music is one of them. And on some of
these Reddit threads about this issue, people are adding that
they have kids and unless they specify a certain artist
when they tell their digital assistant, these are like the
Amazon Echoes, Alexa things of that nature. Unless they specify
(17:38):
an artist when they ask so and so to play
such and such a type of music for their child,
those devices will automatically default to AI generated music.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
And a big part of that is because these entities
shadow entities in our crypto oligarchy that we live in,
are flooding the platforms with like so much music. Yeah,
And it's similar to the to the ghost kitchen thing.
(18:13):
That would be against terms of service. For if you
like posted your song with like five different bands and
like pretended you were five different bands, but you posted
your song five different times, that would be illegal.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
But if you a maze to see which one takes
off exactly, I have a different band, persona different artwork,
everything for the same piece of music, and I'm just
trying to see, like hopefully one of them will vibe
with people.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, and you make like little slight changes to each
one because it's just like a button for them.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And if you are a parent or a person, which
is who don't want to listen to AI, which is
a significant number of people who even if they're not
against it, they would rather not because it's all creepy
and weird and bad.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I mean, if you have if you have children, I
would just I would suggest that you double check the
music that you put on for them. And if anything else,
like the AI generated music is not coming from a
place of morality, it doesn't know human norms. So if
(19:27):
any of this is supposed to be educational, and it's
not going to be, yeah, I mean it's it's just
plagiarizing actual music that's out there and taking ideas and
rhyme schemes and appropriating them into something that sounds credible
but is not actually.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
And and is impossible to create something new. So I like,
at the very at the very most generous, we have enough.
I think we could stop making more like genitive And
I hate even calling it AI actually because it's not intelligence.
It's just like a thing that takes stuff apart and
(20:11):
scrambles it up and then puts it back in a
new order. And it's not intelligent at all. It's a
fancy calculator. It can't have thoughts, it can't have feelings.
That's a part of intelligence. Anyway. I don't like it,
can you tell?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah? Not a fan either.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
So there's the lingering question of is Spotify doing this
to replace real artists with its own creations.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Eventually, I am seething with ree And it's so funny
because it's like, this is a thing that I already
It's not like this is new information that like this
is happening. But I think that anybody who wants to
claim that this is anything other than theft, it's just
like getting around this whole thing of copyright. It's like, oh,
(21:04):
play two notes of a Dolly Parton song on a
YouTube video and you will get thrown in the trash.
But make an AI version of it. You're good.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, and yeah, Well is it wrong to say that
your rage hardens me?
Speaker 1 (21:21):
No?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
No, your rage warms my heart.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
That's the main thing that is the problem is that
everyone's not enraged at it. I get Spotify doing it.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
They're evil, they're clearly very evil company.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, uh it is, well I got so mad, I guless.
I try thought they just got around that that's what
this does. And so with that whole thing, there was
so many people in comment sections being like these who
are like pro AI, they're like democratizing art. How could
(22:00):
it be any more democratized. We democratized it way more
than even potentially benefits the art at times. You know,
everybody's got a podcast these days, you know, like it's like, see,
there's so much availability to make art, and the whole
(22:21):
way it goes is you're supposed to make it and
be really bad at it until you're good enough at
it that everybody's like here, you can have some money
for this, and then if that happens, then you can
make more music and it'll be better and it'll sound better.
And that's the system. And it's already been really hard
(22:44):
to do that, like always to like, you know, earn
money off your art. But now they're using our art
to make there to make money without us and in
turn and using up all the water. It's like for
(23:04):
every guy that makes an AI like that is using
AI to make their to make their thing, to make something.
They're just training the AI to to do it without them,
Like the computer doesn't need you, you're just clicking buttons.
It can click its own buttons. And that's what I
assume Spotify is doing. And that's my other theory though
(23:26):
I like that, I like yours that there's like some
like crypto activist person who's like trying to like get
a bunch of indie bands up in arms so that
they could do a class action lawsuit. But I think
it's very possible that it's like one department of Spotify
is the bot making music stealing department, and they didn't
(23:49):
tell the like bot checker department, and the bot checker
department was like, somebody's stealing these people's music with bots
right now, and uh and then then everybody got penalized.
And then the butt making music stealing department didn't didn't
tell anyone.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Wow are they It's a corporate communication issue. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Anyhow, The bottom line is that I would like people
to be able to hear my music, and Spotify for
not better but worse is a great way for that
to be a reality. I would also like to not
(24:35):
be fined constantly. I don't want a cyber attack on
my music on Spotify. That's not a reality that is
safe for me or anybody. And AI music, I just
don't want it. I'm not interested in it. I want
music that's made by human beings because I am a
human being.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
And I want to.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Hear the ideas and the talents of other human beings.
So I just don't want it. And the morality of
it is complicated, but the reality of it is I
just don't want it.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
There is no reason to do it outside of taking
people's money away because I feel that you're also stealing
my money that I pay them, that I pay them,
which I don't want to do under false pretenses. You're
giving me a counterfeit. I would rather listen to nothing.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
And that's our first thing.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, listen to us on other streaming platforms.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Like at heart Radio, and we'll be back next time
with another completely organic effort's.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Listen to podcast. Thank you for listening to our first
ever randomisode, hope you I but
Speaker 1 (26:01):
He ha
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.