April 17, 2025 • 14 mins
We have a very serious conversation about gender conformance, surrounding a very unserious song by Detroit-based rapper Rob Apollo.
Apollo's song "SHE / THEY" has been circulating on TikTok lately, mainly due to a racy lyric in the chorus that you'd think self-righteous Zoomers would hate.
Dominique and Andrew discuss what teens, tweens and queer people find so fun about the song, and why no one is actually as mad about pronouns as you think they are.
Subscribe so you don't miss an episode of At First Listen!
Connect with us on @AtFirstListenPodcast on Instagram.
Apollo's song "SHE / THEY" has been circulating on TikTok lately, mainly due to a racy lyric in the chorus that you'd think self-righteous Zoomers would hate.
Dominique and Andrew discuss what teens, tweens and queer people find so fun about the song, and why no one is actually as mad about pronouns as you think they are.
Subscribe so you don't miss an episode of At First Listen!
Connect with us on @AtFirstListenPodcast on Instagram.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to at First Listen the podcast for people who
don't always get.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
The high Book.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I want to. I'm Andrew, I'm Dominique, and today we're
talking talk about this artist I found, Rob Apollo. We're
gonna talk about their song She. His song She They
I'm pretty sure it's it's he.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
It does read that way. Yeah, So this is also
going to let people know how deep into the talk
Dominique is. This is not a big artist. He has
fewer than one thousand YouTube subscribers. The YouTube official audio
for this song has under let's say, under a thousand
views as we're recording this episode. So should I play
(00:59):
the song some people.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yes, But I will say he has like he has
like fifty nine thousand TikTok followers. That's that's not interesting,
a huge amount in the world of TikTok, way more
than I have. But he and he has like three
pin tiktoks that have like a million or couple million
from this song and a couple other songs, but most
(01:22):
of his tiktoks have like five thousand views and stuff
like that.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
It's funny how, especially with that app, some stuff just
does not make it off of that app. Yeah, so yeah,
this is she they they they they they they they
they they they they see they they write pronouns. I'm short,
(01:46):
so I don't really know what how to label this
in terms of genre, sort of like an alt rap.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Kind of thing, but yeah, alt rap seems right.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, well let us know, you know, in the comments
on Instagram, if you if if anyone knows like the
niche genres.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
It sounds like it's specifically something, but I don't know
enough to He is.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Detroit based and so it could. It does seem like
it's something related to a regional rap style. Uh yeah,
I'm seeing mischievous alt rap raised by the Internet.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
That definitely comes across even from just the five seconds
or whatever that we played me, this is a whole song.
It's three minutes long, the whole thing. It's not all that,
which is actually it's actually sort.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Of good, okay, actually sort of good high praise.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I don't like it, but it's sort of good.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, it's it's.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Has a lot of like it's kind of a general
like rap song in terms of what it's talking about.
It's not it's not all about allyship and you know,
identity politics.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
As surprising as that might be. I do like that.
It does seem to be like.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
He came, he thought that was funny that line, and
he decided to make that the chorus, and then he
kind of went from there. But he does it is
like it's great representation, Like it actually is a real
thing that I wonder if the gen zs and younger
(03:23):
are having fewer issues with this. But it is a
funny thing that happens when queer Let's say, how do
I say this when gender not conforming? She they type
women or maybe he they type like type folks. However
(03:43):
they identify, like when they end up in a relationship
that like from the outside appears heterosexual, that their their
like non binariness is kind of ignored by that person
or raced. And sometimes even people will take the day
(04:03):
off and they'll just give up. And so it is
like a real thing that that he's talking about that
I really like. But he's also it's also talking about
the he's still calling her a bitch. It's not like
he's actually really respecting her, yeah, but he's respecting her
(04:26):
the concept of her.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, he's aware of the concept. Which is a funny
lane for a rap song, which is I guess in
this area typically conservative genre of music, true.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
True, and not the most forward thinking in.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
The in the gender and sexuality realms.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Precisely, this is more c China than it is twenty
one Savage. I think it's it is one of those
songs that's perfect or TikTok that, like you know, Doja
Cat or Drake wish they could come up with something
that's like so TikTok ish or come out with something
(05:13):
that's so ridiculous and like it is pandering. It totally
is pandering, but like it's it's better than the alternative,
Like it's better than pandering to the right.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
It's better, like it's he's not saying anything. Well hm hmm.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I feel it's clear what side of this he's on,
but he did, he is, he is addressing it, which
is I mean, that's progress, right, Yeah, it is. No,
it's kind of it's it's representation of that issue.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, and he is he's yeah, he's speaking on it.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
It's all it is kind of like a it's a joke, yeah,
which like the ultimately it is like just being silly.
And I think that anybody of all genders could listen
to that and feel identified with him.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
With they.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Do you have? So are you seeing this song being
used on the apps for other people's videos or did
you just find a clip of him?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
This is more me finding a clip of him, Yeah,
because I like what I wanted to do on this
segment was like talk about smaller artists. I think, like,
you know, as fun as it is to talk about
Frank Ocean and Lady Gaga, it's great to be able
to talk about artists like that people actually like wouldn't
(06:50):
see otherwise, and they this guy is like he is
the moment. You know, maybe people don't know his name,
most people don't know as long people might never know it.
But this is very very representative of what's happening right
now in a certain part of music in you know,
in on TikTok, definitely in my algorithm. So that's part
(07:14):
of why I picked it, was because like you know,
it's talking about gender stuff, and it has that sound
of like it's like that. I feel like it is
like drill inspired, like it's that fast rap, like the
fast pace beats it's like and his style is very current,
(07:36):
like his his rap style, but also his his aesthetic
is very current. What he's talking about is very current,
Like the irreverence is very.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Like current. And the fact that we are getting into
a point, thank.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
God, where we're able to talk about, at least on
the left, it's a big sigh. We can talk about
like gender and sexuality in more like lighthearted ways because
it's also this like fuck it at this point, they're
not going to get it, yeah, so we might as
(08:14):
well just like be silly about it. And because we
we are not, we're not really arguing about it anymore
over here.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
But I think that's an essential part of that, that
idea being you know, accepted on all sides is I
think some of the resistance to these sort of like
twenty first century ideas of gender is because it seems
(08:44):
like the stakes are very high. This goes in hand,
hand in hand with the cancel culture thing, which I
those words coming out of my mouth makes me sick
because it's not a real thing.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Uh, there's people on a certain side that think that
if you get someone's pronouns wrong, people want to put
you in jail, which is not the way it has
ever worked. It's just a mistake. Like if I called
you another d name, correct I'm trying to think of
one Diane that's another d name instead of your actual name.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Correct. Yeah, it's just a mistake and it all it.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Or if I said, like thanks man exactly and you
don't identify as him and I.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yeah, and then you would go to jail and go
to jail.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Yeah in commalis America, yes.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Exactly, in commalism America. Ripe. But I think, yeah, it feels,
it does feel like that.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
And I think part my theory on that was that
like a lot of like gen Z's were kind of
coming of age and figuring this stuff out while everybody
else was figuring it out too, And teenagers are known
to be very passionate and sometimes annoying and self righteous.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Hey, I was vegan when I was in high school.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Do you know how many PEDA videos I showed people
that they didn't want to see and people would go
vegan or vegetarian for like a week, and I was like,
be the change.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
And I was annoying, but I moved past that. I
figured it out.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I incorporated into who I am, and I realized people
are gonna do what they're gonna do, and I'm gonna
do what I'm gonna do. And I think that that
we sort of like grew up with the gen Z's
like they owned, they owned the Internet. They still kind
of do they own these platforms. And then we're on
there with people of all ages, creeds, nationalities arguing about
(10:54):
some specific topics and it really didn't need to be
like that. I think like a lot of it also
was people feeling like left out. They were like, I'm confused,
I want to be cool, and then they like went
the whole other way with it. It is a mess, surely,
(11:15):
but it also it's like to everybody. To most people,
it's like, hey, it's just a way to show some respect.
You know, how many how many like men have I
said sir to try to be respectful and then they're like,
don't call me sir, there's my dad, you know. Or
like if you call a woman ma'am, most women are like,
(11:39):
oh that makes me feel old.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And it's like it's a little awkward thing. It's a
little faux pas. We don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And the gen Zs were like, you can actually just
skip it, and like that's that's basically all it is.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
No, it's funny people, people.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
There's some people who only use they them and they
like refer to are people who will like call me
they and I'm like, it's not you could say she
like that's my but like I also don't care. You
could say he also it really you can point at
me like it's not.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
It's just language and it's always been complicated and that's
why languages are hard to learn.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
She they she they she they she they she They
write pronouns when I'm fucking that bitch.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
True words have never been spoken.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, that's the look out for that song during Pride month.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Oh yeah, no, this is like, yeah, the inner the
the kids are gay, you know, there's it's it's possible
that my algorithm lean's gay. I don't know why, the
gay agenda probably, but yeah, I also I do.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I would rather hear this than like the Also the
version of it that's like, you know, saying I'm gonna
fuck your bitch in a mean way.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, so everybody, the kid rock version of this song
is not nearly as interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Definitely not, but yeah, everybody check up Rob Apollo on
on uh. He has other songs on Spotify. They're all fun,
plam and plan for your for your gen Z friend
and they will say, oh you know this.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Wow, you're so cool.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Yeah, I mean impressing the kids is all where any
of us were trying to do. That's why we're doing
this exactly, like we're aware of these things.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Oh I know about them so much.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So that was That was our first listen of Rob
Apollo's She They tell Us About Yours at at First
Listen podcast
Speaker 2 (14:03):
On Instagram
Welcome to at First Listen the podcast for people who
don't always get.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
The high Book.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I want to. I'm Andrew, I'm Dominique, and today we're
talking talk about this artist I found, Rob Apollo. We're
gonna talk about their song She. His song She They
I'm pretty sure it's it's he.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
It does read that way. Yeah, So this is also
going to let people know how deep into the talk
Dominique is. This is not a big artist. He has
fewer than one thousand YouTube subscribers. The YouTube official audio
for this song has under let's say, under a thousand
views as we're recording this episode. So should I play
(00:59):
the song some people.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yes, But I will say he has like he has
like fifty nine thousand TikTok followers. That's that's not interesting,
a huge amount in the world of TikTok, way more
than I have. But he and he has like three
pin tiktoks that have like a million or couple million
from this song and a couple other songs, but most
(01:22):
of his tiktoks have like five thousand views and stuff
like that.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
It's funny how, especially with that app, some stuff just
does not make it off of that app. Yeah, so yeah,
this is she they they they they they they they
they they they they see they they write pronouns. I'm short,
(01:46):
so I don't really know what how to label this
in terms of genre, sort of like an alt rap.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Kind of thing, but yeah, alt rap seems right.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, well let us know, you know, in the comments
on Instagram, if you if if anyone knows like the
niche genres.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
It sounds like it's specifically something, but I don't know
enough to He is.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Detroit based and so it could. It does seem like
it's something related to a regional rap style. Uh yeah,
I'm seeing mischievous alt rap raised by the Internet.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
That definitely comes across even from just the five seconds
or whatever that we played me, this is a whole song.
It's three minutes long, the whole thing. It's not all that,
which is actually it's actually sort.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Of good, okay, actually sort of good high praise.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I don't like it, but it's sort of good.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, it's it's.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Has a lot of like it's kind of a general
like rap song in terms of what it's talking about.
It's not it's not all about allyship and you know,
identity politics.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
As surprising as that might be. I do like that.
It does seem to be like.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
He came, he thought that was funny that line, and
he decided to make that the chorus, and then he
kind of went from there. But he does it is
like it's great representation, Like it actually is a real
thing that I wonder if the gen zs and younger
(03:23):
are having fewer issues with this. But it is a
funny thing that happens when queer Let's say, how do
I say this when gender not conforming? She they type
women or maybe he they type like type folks. However
(03:43):
they identify, like when they end up in a relationship
that like from the outside appears heterosexual, that their their
like non binariness is kind of ignored by that person
or raced. And sometimes even people will take the day
(04:03):
off and they'll just give up. And so it is
like a real thing that that he's talking about that
I really like. But he's also it's also talking about
the he's still calling her a bitch. It's not like
he's actually really respecting her, yeah, but he's respecting her
(04:26):
the concept of her.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, he's aware of the concept. Which is a funny
lane for a rap song, which is I guess in
this area typically conservative genre of music, true.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
True, and not the most forward thinking in.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
The in the gender and sexuality realms.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Precisely, this is more c China than it is twenty
one Savage. I think it's it is one of those
songs that's perfect or TikTok that, like you know, Doja
Cat or Drake wish they could come up with something
that's like so TikTok ish or come out with something
(05:13):
that's so ridiculous and like it is pandering. It totally
is pandering, but like it's it's better than the alternative,
Like it's better than pandering to the right.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
It's better, like it's he's not saying anything. Well hm hmm.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I feel it's clear what side of this he's on,
but he did, he is, he is addressing it, which
is I mean, that's progress, right, Yeah, it is. No,
it's kind of it's it's representation of that issue.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, and he is he's yeah, he's speaking on it.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
It's all it is kind of like a it's a joke, yeah,
which like the ultimately it is like just being silly.
And I think that anybody of all genders could listen
to that and feel identified with him.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
With they.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Do you have? So are you seeing this song being
used on the apps for other people's videos or did
you just find a clip of him?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
This is more me finding a clip of him, Yeah,
because I like what I wanted to do on this
segment was like talk about smaller artists. I think, like,
you know, as fun as it is to talk about
Frank Ocean and Lady Gaga, it's great to be able
to talk about artists like that people actually like wouldn't
(06:50):
see otherwise, and they this guy is like he is
the moment. You know, maybe people don't know his name,
most people don't know as long people might never know it.
But this is very very representative of what's happening right
now in a certain part of music in you know,
in on TikTok, definitely in my algorithm. So that's part
(07:14):
of why I picked it, was because like you know,
it's talking about gender stuff, and it has that sound
of like it's like that. I feel like it is
like drill inspired, like it's that fast rap, like the
fast pace beats it's like and his style is very current,
(07:36):
like his his rap style, but also his his aesthetic
is very current. What he's talking about is very current,
Like the irreverence is very.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Like current. And the fact that we are getting into
a point, thank.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
God, where we're able to talk about, at least on
the left, it's a big sigh. We can talk about
like gender and sexuality in more like lighthearted ways because
it's also this like fuck it at this point, they're
not going to get it, yeah, so we might as
(08:14):
well just like be silly about it. And because we
we are not, we're not really arguing about it anymore
over here.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
But I think that's an essential part of that, that
idea being you know, accepted on all sides is I
think some of the resistance to these sort of like
twenty first century ideas of gender is because it seems
(08:44):
like the stakes are very high. This goes in hand,
hand in hand with the cancel culture thing, which I
those words coming out of my mouth makes me sick
because it's not a real thing.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Uh, there's people on a certain side that think that
if you get someone's pronouns wrong, people want to put
you in jail, which is not the way it has
ever worked. It's just a mistake. Like if I called
you another d name, correct I'm trying to think of
one Diane that's another d name instead of your actual name.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Correct. Yeah, it's just a mistake and it all it.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Or if I said, like thanks man exactly and you
don't identify as him and I.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yeah, and then you would go to jail and go
to jail.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Yeah in commalis America, yes.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Exactly, in commalism America. Ripe. But I think, yeah, it feels,
it does feel like that.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
And I think part my theory on that was that
like a lot of like gen Z's were kind of
coming of age and figuring this stuff out while everybody
else was figuring it out too, And teenagers are known
to be very passionate and sometimes annoying and self righteous.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Hey, I was vegan when I was in high school.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Do you know how many PEDA videos I showed people
that they didn't want to see and people would go
vegan or vegetarian for like a week, and I was like,
be the change.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
And I was annoying, but I moved past that. I
figured it out.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I incorporated into who I am, and I realized people
are gonna do what they're gonna do, and I'm gonna
do what I'm gonna do. And I think that that
we sort of like grew up with the gen Z's
like they owned, they owned the Internet. They still kind
of do they own these platforms. And then we're on
there with people of all ages, creeds, nationalities arguing about
(10:54):
some specific topics and it really didn't need to be
like that. I think like a lot of it also
was people feeling like left out. They were like, I'm confused,
I want to be cool, and then they like went
the whole other way with it. It is a mess, surely,
(11:15):
but it also it's like to everybody. To most people,
it's like, hey, it's just a way to show some respect.
You know, how many how many like men have I
said sir to try to be respectful and then they're like,
don't call me sir, there's my dad, you know. Or
like if you call a woman ma'am, most women are like,
(11:39):
oh that makes me feel old.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And it's like it's a little awkward thing. It's a
little faux pas. We don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And the gen Zs were like, you can actually just
skip it, and like that's that's basically all it is.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
No, it's funny people, people.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
There's some people who only use they them and they
like refer to are people who will like call me
they and I'm like, it's not you could say she
like that's my but like I also don't care. You
could say he also it really you can point at
me like it's not.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
It's just language and it's always been complicated and that's
why languages are hard to learn.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
She they she they she they she they she They
write pronouns when I'm fucking that bitch.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
True words have never been spoken.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, that's the look out for that song during Pride month.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Oh yeah, no, this is like, yeah, the inner the
the kids are gay, you know, there's it's it's possible
that my algorithm lean's gay. I don't know why, the
gay agenda probably, but yeah, I also I do.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I would rather hear this than like the Also the
version of it that's like, you know, saying I'm gonna
fuck your bitch in a mean way.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, so everybody, the kid rock version of this song
is not nearly as interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Definitely not, but yeah, everybody check up Rob Apollo on
on uh. He has other songs on Spotify. They're all fun,
plam and plan for your for your gen Z friend
and they will say, oh you know this.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Wow, you're so cool.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Yeah, I mean impressing the kids is all where any
of us were trying to do. That's why we're doing
this exactly, like we're aware of these things.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Oh I know about them so much.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So that was That was our first listen of Rob
Apollo's She They tell Us About Yours at at First
Listen podcast
Speaker 2 (14:03):
On Instagram
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