March 5, 2025 • 27 mins
It’s not unusual that those who have experienced substance use disorders or severe mental illnesses have had interruptions and difficulties in their employment. Re-entering the workforce in recovery presents obstacles. Abbie Timmerman talks about the challenges and opportunities people new to recovery with issues in their employment history face when seeking employment. Abbie is a Talent Acquisition Leader & Business Partner with the Panaro Group, a 100% woman-owned recruitment firm with over 30 years of expertise in building a Recruiting Center of Excellence. Abbie has a decade and a half of success delivering effective, targeted talent acquisition, people development strategies, and programs for business and industry. The Panaro Group can be reached at Panaro Group | Your Strategic Recruiting Partner
The views and opinions of the guests on this podcast are theirs and theirs alone and do not necessarily represent those of the host, Westwords Consulting or the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition.
We're always interested in hearing from individuals or organizations who are working in substance use disorder treatment or prevention, mental health care and other spaces that lift up communities. This includes people living those experiences. If you or someone you know has a story to share or an interesting approach to care, contact us today!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike (00:12):
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction, brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
You know, it's not unusual thatsomeone who has experienced a
substance use disorder or severemental illness has had interruptions
and difficulties in their employment.
(00:32):
Re entering the workforce andrecovery presents its own obstacles.
Well, how to address those challengesand obstacles is our topic today.
My guest is Abbie Timmerman, VicePresident of the Panaro Group.
The Panaro Group is based in Pewaukee,Wisconsin, and is a 100 percent woman
owned recruitment firm with over30 years of expertise in building
(00:53):
a recruitment center of excellence.
Abbie is a talent acquisition leaderand business partner with a decade
and a half of success deliveringeffective, targeted talent acquisition
and people development strategies andprograms for business and industry.
Welcome Abbie.
Abbie (01:10):
Thank you, Mike.
I'm happy to be here.
I appreciate the invitation.
Mike (01:13):
Well, this is a topic that, you know, we've done a lot of these
and, and all of a sudden I woke upand I said this would be perfect
because not everything goes well.
In a perfect world, Abbie, substanceuse disorder, mental illness
would be addressed, right, beforesomebody gets in trouble with
it or there's an interruption,but the world is not perfect.
Lots of people lose their jobsand then in recovery have to
(01:35):
reconstruct their work life.
So I mean, this is whatyou guys do for a living.
Where should somebody startif they've had a pause?
Abbie (01:44):
This is a great topic, Mike, and thank you for the great introduction.
And one thing that's missing is therein there is that I myself have struggled
with mental illness for the past 30 years.
So depression, anxiety I havefirsthand experience with it.
So thank you for doingthis type of podcast.
There needs to be moreawareness of mental illness.
So with that.
Let me help.
(02:05):
So we should start out with numberone, make sure you're ready.
This is a tough journey.
Interviews you're going togo up and down with, so make
sure you're ready to do that.
Number two, make sure youhave the support needed.
When I say it's a journey, it's becauseyou're going to have interviews,
you're going to have people not callyou back from an interview, you're
going to apply to many jobs, andthey're not going to get back to you.
(02:28):
So it is a journey where you have tobe able to be a little bit resilient.
So make sure that it's not goingto put you back into a place where
you're feeling that you need help.
Rely on your network, rely onthe people that have helped you.
Make sure you know what you want to do.
You might not be able to dowhat you did in the past.
Don't overdo it.
Don't try to get into something that'sgoing to cause you too much stress.
(02:50):
That's going to causeyou no work life balance.
Ease into it and you'll do great.
The next thing is the resume.
You're going to need to work on a resume.
So there's many ways you can do that.
I always say you want to tap intoyour network of people to help you.
There's industries out there such as theSalvation Army or Goodwill Industries
that offer assistance with that.
(03:13):
And there's a lot of websites thesedays that offer templates to just
guide you through your resume.
And there's a lot of them.
LinkedIn does it, Indeed does it.
I know there's many others, butyou do have a lot of help to
prepare a resume now these days.
Mike (03:28):
How do you explain, like, let's say I had to take time off for, to
treat my depression or we've had so manyguests on here who have had to shut down
everything in order to treat themselves.
How do you explain gaps in a resume?
Abbie (03:41):
Gaps are, they're there.
And the best way that I canexplain it is stay positive.
I mean, forward focus.
Make sure that you're sayingI took some time off for
wellbeing to take care of myself.
And now I'm ready.
I'm better and I'm ready to showyou know, everybody what I can do.
You know, don't make it all aboutanything bad, turn it to a positive.
(04:04):
So you're going to have gaps.
And I want to make sure that youknow you don't have to say too much,
just say you focused on yourself,and what you can provide the
employer now that you have recovered.
Mike (04:15):
Oh, I love that.
So in other words, you don't haveto do the the A, B and C of the
war story of what all you wentthrough, but you also don't lie.
Right?
Abbie (04:25):
Yeah, do not lie.
Be honest.
Always, always be honest.
And one thing I think isgreat about resumes too, is.
You can put them in a timelineor you can put your strengths
and what you've achieved and theaccomplishments that you've made at
the top of it and do a summary of that.
And I feel like by doing that, it focusesa little bit more to the employer on
(04:46):
what you have achieved, and it takesaway a little bit from that timeline.
So that's one way I've seenpeople do this in the past.
Mike (04:53):
Wait you know what, Abbie, that has you just said something that's
never occurred to me in my entire life.
So if I'm doing a resume.
Because we all think about itin chronological terms, right?
Linear.
Abbie (05:04):
Right.
Mike (05:05):
Well, you can just list, you're saying you could just list your
jobs and what you've accomplishedand leave the linear part out.
Abbie (05:11):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yes.
Mike (05:13):
(laugh) That never occurred to me at all.
Abbie (05:16):
Highlight what you've done in the past.
Highlight your achievements,highlight what's gone well,
and then it takes a focus off.
Mike (05:24):
Well, so now I'm have my resume ready to go and I'm
actually lucky enough, right?
Or to get an interview.
How do you handle difficultinterview questions?
If you did, if you did do it . And it'slike, let's say somebody says, I see
there are gaps in your work history.
Abbie (05:40):
You know, that's going to be tough for each person and
you can do a couple of things.
You can be very minimalistic about it.
You can say simply what I said before isI took some time off for personal health.
I'm in a better place andready to show what I can do.
You can share a little bit moreabout it, such as I took some
time off because of my health.
(06:01):
I feel that I've achieved a lot andI want to show you how I can do that.
You can share your experience,what you went through.
I went through recovery, I did.
Use this with caution because there's somecompanies that are going to understand,
but there's companies that won't.
So don't divulge too much.
But you can be honest about it, but doit with caution, there is risk to that.
Mike (06:24):
Since you mentioned yourself individually can I ask you a
couple of questions about that?
Abbie (06:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mike (06:30):
Because that's an interesting part.
It would be nice if everybody treatedthis as a disease but they don't, right?
So not all businesses understand whatwe're talking about today is that
you're actually a better employee beingin recovery from a mental illness or
your addiction than some of the peopleactually working for 'em currently.
Abbie (06:51):
I agree.
I agree.
And you always need to rememberthat, that what happened is not a
fault or it's not a flaw on you.
It's made you a better person.
It's got you where you are today.
So when you're going through thetough times, when you don't have
a recruiter call you back after aninterview and that you have to go back
on everything that you've achieved,what you've went through and where you
(07:13):
are because mental illness is dark.
I have not gone through addictionrecovery, but I'm sure it's similar.
It's dark and you have to getthrough a very dark period.
Not everybody has experienced that.
That makes you stronger.
Mike (07:27):
Were you nervous then going back in that you didn't know what to say
or how you would say it to begin with?
Abbie (07:34):
I did not have to interview after I was out.
I worked for a couple of companies thatI did have to take some time off and came
back into the workforce and thankfullythey were understanding companies.
But getting back into the workforce.
When you're going into a new company,you don't know what you're going into.
Mike (07:53):
Right.
Abbie (07:54):
There's that question mark.
There are opportunities out therecalled second chance opportunities.
So the good news is, is I believethat there is more focus on mental
illness than there was 20 years agowhen I started my journey with mental
illness, but it's not everywhere.
But there's a lot of companies whoare looking to hire people who do have
(08:16):
disability, a mental illness, a recoveryaddict, and give them a second chance.
So I would say that's alwaysa good place to start.
Look for those companies.
Mike (08:25):
Yeah.
We've interviewed a bunch of them on thispodcast and employment is such a huge
thing for somebody in recovery to helpthem get their feet back on the ground.
I do know this part.
Okay, you're the expert.
I do know this part.
If I commit a felony, I think I haveto disclose that on the application.
But otherwise...
Abbie (08:46):
It's always about, be honest.
If they ask you on an application,you do have to be honest about it.
You can not disclose or you can,you know, market, not disclose why,
or you can be proactive about itand say, I'm filling out this form.
I do want you to know that I diddo this while this was happening
and because of that, I do havethis, but I'm in a better place.
(09:09):
I always think that it's asking for,you know, letting them know first.
So it's not a shock to them.
Mike (09:14):
Yeah.
Abbie (09:14):
It's always a good thing.
Once again, every company is goingto be different, how they react.
But I think it's a good way to go.
Mike (09:21):
Do all companies do a background check?
Abbie (09:24):
No, they do not.
It's very specific to companies.
I mean, if you're going to get intotransportation or anything with
delivery and that they're going todo a driver's license, you know, make
sure your driving record is okay.
If you're going to getinto some other industries.
They are going to do background checks ifit's governmental, if it's something to do
with that, but there are companies whereit's contingent on a background check.
(09:45):
So not every company does it,but there are companies that do.
So you need to be prepared for it.
Mike (09:51):
What would you tell somebody ahead of time who maybe at 18 or 19
had a DUI and that would show up on abackground check, but now they're 30.
So this is literally 12 years ago.
They don't even think about it anymore.
Really?
Abbie (10:05):
Be honest.
Everybody has done things in theirpast that maybe they aren't thrilled.
When I was 18, I wasn'tdoing what I'm doing now.
I was doing a lot that I probablyshouldn't have been doing.
So but that's where again, letthem know, it was 12 years ago.
I was young.
I made a mistake.
But this is what I've learnedfrom it, and this is how I'm
going to move forward with it.
(10:25):
Always follow up with what you're goingto do about it or what you did about it.
Make it a positive thing.
Mike (10:31):
What if substance use affected your work performance or mental illness?
And then, how would youaddress that in a resume?
Or do you have to leave thatpart of employment out because
you don't want them to call?
Abbie (10:45):
If it's a long period of time, no, I mean, don't leave it out of your
resume because if they do a check wherethey're looking at your background
history of work, it'll come up.
When you do have to dosomething like that.
See if there's any colleagues.
Or any coworkers that you workedwith that might be able to
give you a good recommendation.
I always say that it's nice to have acharacter reference, somebody who can
(11:07):
write a letter for you and tell aboutall the good things that you have done.
But if it gets to the point where they'relike, I have to have a former company, you
might have to come out and be a little bitmore honest with them about what happened.
That's just my thought.
Mike (11:22):
This has something to do with the topic, but it's a little on a tangent.
I think everybody talks about this.
Part of leaving a companysometimes... our relationships.
And if I'm not gettingalong with my superior.
And I've had that happen to me where,and trust me, Abbie, it wasn't me.
Right.
Abbie (11:41):
Of
Mike (11:41):
course, it never is!
So I don't want to use thatperson as a reference because we
don't have a good relationship.
And that makes me a littleshould I still be using my old
boss or can I use a colleague?
Abbie (11:56):
That's a great question.
Everybody has had bad experienceswith former supervisors.
I mean, if you've had a great run ofsupervisors, I've been in the workforce
since, let's see here, 35 years.
And I've had some great managers.
I've had some managers that Ihaven't seen eye to eye with.
No, any reference that you'regoing to do, make sure that you
ask them first and that they'regoing to give you a good reference.
(12:20):
If they ask you why you left, which is acommon question by a company, be honest.
I enjoyed working there.
However, I didn't see eye to eye,and we just decided to part ways.
Be honest about it.
Companies and interviewers know,recruiters, that not everybody...
Now, if it's the past five jobs, thenyou're going to have to look at it a
(12:42):
little bit differently, but don't saynegative things about the employer.
I can't emphasize that enough.
Don't bash the employer.
Don't put fault on them.
Say you didn't see eye to eye,and you decided to part ways.
Mike (12:54):
Now that's going to take practice, right?
Because we're not good at this.
We don't have to do this 10 times a week.
If you do it 10 times in yourlifetime that would be a lot.
So you're going to be nervous.
Abbie (13:05):
That's so true.
You're going to be nervous.
And it's so easy for me to talk about itbecause I've been doing this for so long.
Being nervous is okay.
Be prepared.
Don't go into an interviewwithout knowing about the company.
What they do, who you'reinterviewing with.
I mean, there are so many waysthat you can see who you're
interviewing with these days.
(13:25):
LinkedIn is a great example.
People's profiles are on LinkedIn.
You can do research on it.
So there's going to be nervous, butthe more prepared you are to go in
knowing about the company in that.
I think the nerves get less a littlebit, but I think it'd be unrealistic
to not be nervous for an interview
Mike (13:41):
And turning it into a positive.
As you said, it's reallyimportant, isn't it?
In other words, you're now healthy.
You're now taking care of yourself.
Abbie (13:51):
Give yourself a pat on the back for what you've gone through.
And, you know, I can't talk for everycompany that, you know, they're going to
understand they're going to be open to it.
But, there are companiesout there that will.
Mike (14:05):
I think sometimes people, whether it's just adding on, or if
it's the root cause, the job itselfcan cause anxiety, stress, and issues.
Health issues and mental health issues.
So can you reset?
You don't have to go into the sameline of business that you were in
(14:27):
before or we're even educated in.
How do you address that?
If you wanna take a right-hand turn.
Abbie (14:33):
Take it.
Yeah.
Take it in sections.
Start out with what isit that you love to do?
What brings you happiness.
What's something that you feel thatyou would focus on and then take
it into how much of it can I take?
How much can I do?
Because you don't want to just jumpinto employment, get any job and jump
(14:53):
into it for the reason of I need ajob because you want to find the job
that's going to give you enjoyment.
And not stress you out too much.
There are jobs out there.
You don't want to get into beinga supervisor of a team of 10.
That's a lot of stress.
You want to get into something that'sgoing to work with your recovery and
make you feel good at the same time.
(15:14):
Don't allow it to set you back.
Whatever you want to do,research it, look into it.
Maybe talk to some other people arein the industry and see how is it?
You can go back into whatyou've done, but think about it.
How did I feel when I was in that job?
How did it make me feel?
Did it trigger me into where I was?
(15:35):
You know, you want toavoid that at all costs.
And, I have left a job because it wasputting me so down that I could barely
even get up and go to work the next day.
I needed to have a paycheck.
So I did it.
And the end result of it was.
I bottomed out, I bottomed out andI had to build myself back up again.
(15:58):
Don't do that.
You've come too far.
And there's so much helpyou can get out there now.
Focus on yourself.
Mike (16:03):
That takes some work, doesn't it?
Because it would be natural to wantto jump back in salary wise without
necessarily taking care of yourself.
So knowing what you can handleis going to take some work too.
Abbie (16:15):
Yes, it is.
You will need supports.
How I did it is I had a lot of supportand I'm very blessed with that.
I hope listeners are but thereare some that maybe aren't.
Find somebody who cansupport you with that.
But always make sure that you arefocusing on what's best for you.
Yeah, you need support, and you need tounderstand that if you left a job making X
(16:40):
amount of money and you were doing great,but you were stressed out and you had no
work life balance and it, but you're notgoing to, you don't want to go back there.
Go back to school.
Maybe get a little bit of educationon some different things to do.
Start in a different profession.
But remember, anytime you startin a different profession, you
don't just walk in at mid level,you do have to learn up to it.
(17:03):
And there's a lot of tools thatyou get there can get you there.
However, you have to be realistic.
So be okay with it.
Don't stress yourself out.
But no, yeah, there's probably goingto be a little bit of a pay gap.
You'll get back there.
You'll get back there.
Mike (17:18):
That work life balance, I think, is really important.
How does one go about settingboundaries to take care of yourself
when things are being heaped upon you?
We're now seeing at the federallevel a whole bunch of anxiety
and people losing their jobs.
So, in other words, if I'm workingall of a sudden tomorrow with 25
percent less employees, that's goingto create a little bit of stress.
Abbie (17:41):
A little bit of stress.
Absolutely.
The key thing you said thereis take care of yourself.
How do you take care of yourself?
The good thing that's happeningthese days is a lot of companies are
big believers in work life balance.
They want you to work, but they believein taking time off for yourself.
They have personal days.
They have health days.
They give you incentives formaybe doing healthy things.
(18:03):
Find companies like thatthat are gonna be open to it.
It doesn't mean that you can take everyday off, but it means that they're gonna
be more forgiving and give you time tofocus on your life yourself and all that.
When I started working, you worked eightto five and you took a half an hour lunch.
You didn't go away fordoctor appointments.
You didn't go away for anything.
You were there.
And fast forward to now, there'sso much more flexibility for you
(18:27):
to be able to focus on yourself.
But you have to make sure youare going to the right companies.
It's okay to ask an interview.
Tell me a little bit about your culture.
Tell me how you embrace work life balance.
That's important to me.
It's important to a lot of people.
Mike (18:41):
I think people are afraid to ask questions about the company.
But that's a good thing, right?
Abbie (18:48):
It's a great thing.
When I interview somebody and ifI ask them, what questions do you
have and they don't ask anything.
To me, I'm like, you'vegot to be kidding me.
You know, I've interviewed you.
I've told you some things, butyou have to have questions for me.
I always go into aninterview with questions.
Why do you like working here?
Why have you stayed here?
Tell me how you got into this company.
(19:10):
You know, all of that.
People like to talk about themselves.
Talk about, you know, talk about themor how they got into it's okay to ask
about, tell me about your culture.
Culture is a huge thing right now.
It's culture.
Benefits are becoming bigger, butculture is becoming defined as a
really important part of an employer.
Mike (19:30):
Do you think that's generational?
Is that driven by the younger people?
Abbie (19:34):
I think it is.
I do, because you go back to, you know,1990s when I was getting into work.
My parents went to work andthey stayed there for 40 years
and they went eight to five.
And that was the mindset.
And that mindset was instilledinto me, the Gen X. So that's my
mindset, but the mindsets change asthe generations come around and it
(19:58):
absolutely has something to do with that.
It absolutely does becauseyou get set in your ways.
Let's be honest, to me, working eightto five is just kind of something that I
know it took me time to think, Oh, I canreally take off and and go to a doctor
appointment or something during the day.
It's still hard for me to dobecause I'm so ingrained in
(20:18):
me, but embrace it, embrace it.
Mike (20:22):
I hope they won't mind me doing this, but one of my kids
has a friend who just interviewedand I admired this so much.
In the interview process said, yeah, whatyou're offering, I would like more PTO,
not a ton, but advocating for yourselfin the initial stages is not a bad thing
(20:45):
because that's where the bar is set.
Right.
In that first initial stages.
Abbie (20:49):
Yes.
Advocate, negotiate.
PTO is the one thing that Ifeel is always negotiable.
Let me go back on that.
Depending, it's always negotiable,. We work with a lot of candidates
where the PTO is somethingthat needs to be adjusted.
There's some companies thatyou earn a day for every year
that you're there or something.
(21:10):
Yeah.
You know, two weeks, you know, makesure that you're getting some time.
PTO is probably a little bitmore negotiable sometimes than
salary, depending on the company.
I feel that that's theway, but negotiate it.
I always say, what do you have to lose?
But again, focus on what'sgoing to be best for you.
Focus on making sure it's going to be theright company in that, but negotiate PTO.
Mike (21:34):
And how would you handle it when you're working?
If you feel yourself, weall have ups and downs.
This is the time of year where forthose of you listening, we're in
the tail end of winter or, you know,we like to call it spring, right?
And it's hard for some of us.
It's cold.
Yesterday it was three.
So, you know, if you find yourself ina dip, how do you advocate for yourself
(22:00):
so you don't slip below that levelwhere it's going to affect your work?
Abbie (22:06):
Coming from a depression side, personally, this is the
worst time of year for me.
After Christmas.
You know, it's the depths of January, thedepths of February, the days are shorter.
You wake up, it's dark.
You go to bed, it's dark.
Those are the difficult times.
If you're having a hard time,think of how much can I handle?
Know that going into anyjob, how much can I handle?
(22:27):
And if you're getting into a situationwhere you feel like I'm overloaded, the
only thing that you can do is speak upabout it and say, here's where I'm at and
I need you to know this and go from there.
Honesty is great, but make sure thatyou're just focusing on yourself
and how much you can handle.
I wouldn't say have it be somethingthat you're doing all the time,
(22:49):
but you can speak up about it.
Mike (22:51):
Yeah, because if the employer is not going to be responsive to that, then maybe
it's time to begin looking again, right?
Abbie (23:00):
The one thing you want to do is that's why I say prepare yourself for
a couple, you can't know everything.
I mean, the internet, Google.
AI these days.
You can learn a lot abouta company before going in.
Make sure you're doing your research andknowing what type of company is this.
Are they a culture driven orare they a company that is more
driven on the nine to five work.
(23:23):
So know going in and knowhow much you can handle.
That's why the first answeris prepare, prepare to go in.
You don't want to be leaving everyjob because in that I feel that it
gives you a little bit of an excuse.
So if you're feeling and you know, likeit's overwhelming, do what you can to
step back, raise your hand, but thendon't necessarily say it's the next job.
(23:44):
See what you can do.
If you think it's too much, well,then you have to, it's time to go.
Mike (23:49):
And your recovery support network can also be your
employment support network.
Abbie (23:54):
You have to have people to lean on, lean on your recovery network, lean
on your friends, lean on your family.
You can't do this without that.
In my personal opinion, evenif you have one person who
you can rely on, rely on them.
My support network, thankfully Ihad a great support network that
I've leaned into for a long time.
(24:16):
I still do.
So have that support network.
It's important.
And know your limits,know your boundaries.
Know, your boundaries.
That's why going in part time,easing yourself into a job,
volunteering, stuff like that.
There are different ways to do that,but don't get in over your head.
Mike (24:33):
And I'll let you go with this, but I would think in any climate that
patience and perseverance is criticalbecause it, it may not, it may be.
The first one you get is theone you stay in 20 years, but it
may take a while to reconstruct.
Abbie (24:49):
Recovering from anything is difficult.
And persevering through it,from my experience, it's hard to
do because your mind's tellingyou, you know, I can't do this.
You can if it's the righttime and place for you.
But, don't push yourself too much, butknow that you've gone through so much.
(25:13):
You can do a lot, but don't do it toomuch to put you back where you were.
That's what's most important.
Move forward, forward focusing.
If you feel like you're starting toslip back, raise your hand and make sure
that you're taking care of yourself.
Most importantly, just don't useit as an excuse all the time.
Because I know, personally, you can.
You know, oh, this is alittle bit too much for me.
(25:34):
Back when I was starting to strugglewith this, I would make excuses.
It's not my fault.
I just don't, I just don't feel good.
I don't want to do it.
I felt fine.
I just didn't want to do itbecause of my mental illness.
So persevere, not always easy.
It's probably gonna be thetoughest thing that you have to do.
Mike (25:51):
Well, and I said that would be the last one, but you just, that
also means continuing to get helpso that you're aware when you're
putting things off and when you'reactually taking care of yourself.
Abbie (26:02):
Never stop getting help, ever stop getting help.
I still get help and I'm in, 30 yearsago is when I was first diagnosed
and if I didn't, I would slip back.
So I still get help.
Please never step away from help.
You might feel like you can still do it.
(laugh)
Go to your network, go to your friends.
(26:22):
Talk to them about it.
Mike (26:25):
This is an area, you know, I've done a lot of podcasts where I know the topic.
I didn't know this one as nearly as well.
This has been so informative.
Abbie, thank you so much.
Abbie (26:35):
Thank you, Mike.
I couldn't have been happier totalk about such a wonderful topic.
So you know, everybody go get 'em.
You can do it.
Just be prepared.
And I know that there's ups and downs.
Mike (26:46):
That's great.
As you know who listened,there are links to the Panaro
Group attached to the podcast.
And for everybody listening, we invite youalways to listen at any time you're able.
Until then, stay safe, andlet's see, since it's basketball
season, keep shooting untilthe ball goes through the hoop.
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction, brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
You know, it's not unusual thatsomeone who has experienced a
substance use disorder or severemental illness has had interruptions
and difficulties in their employment.
(00:32):
Re entering the workforce andrecovery presents its own obstacles.
Well, how to address those challengesand obstacles is our topic today.
My guest is Abbie Timmerman, VicePresident of the Panaro Group.
The Panaro Group is based in Pewaukee,Wisconsin, and is a 100 percent woman
owned recruitment firm with over30 years of expertise in building
(00:53):
a recruitment center of excellence.
Abbie is a talent acquisition leaderand business partner with a decade
and a half of success deliveringeffective, targeted talent acquisition
and people development strategies andprograms for business and industry.
Welcome Abbie.
Abbie (01:10):
Thank you, Mike.
I'm happy to be here.
I appreciate the invitation.
Mike (01:13):
Well, this is a topic that, you know, we've done a lot of these
and, and all of a sudden I woke upand I said this would be perfect
because not everything goes well.
In a perfect world, Abbie, substanceuse disorder, mental illness
would be addressed, right, beforesomebody gets in trouble with
it or there's an interruption,but the world is not perfect.
Lots of people lose their jobsand then in recovery have to
(01:35):
reconstruct their work life.
So I mean, this is whatyou guys do for a living.
Where should somebody startif they've had a pause?
Abbie (01:44):
This is a great topic, Mike, and thank you for the great introduction.
And one thing that's missing is therein there is that I myself have struggled
with mental illness for the past 30 years.
So depression, anxiety I havefirsthand experience with it.
So thank you for doingthis type of podcast.
There needs to be moreawareness of mental illness.
So with that.
Let me help.
(02:05):
So we should start out with numberone, make sure you're ready.
This is a tough journey.
Interviews you're going togo up and down with, so make
sure you're ready to do that.
Number two, make sure youhave the support needed.
When I say it's a journey, it's becauseyou're going to have interviews,
you're going to have people not callyou back from an interview, you're
going to apply to many jobs, andthey're not going to get back to you.
(02:28):
So it is a journey where you have tobe able to be a little bit resilient.
So make sure that it's not goingto put you back into a place where
you're feeling that you need help.
Rely on your network, rely onthe people that have helped you.
Make sure you know what you want to do.
You might not be able to dowhat you did in the past.
Don't overdo it.
Don't try to get into something that'sgoing to cause you too much stress.
(02:50):
That's going to causeyou no work life balance.
Ease into it and you'll do great.
The next thing is the resume.
You're going to need to work on a resume.
So there's many ways you can do that.
I always say you want to tap intoyour network of people to help you.
There's industries out there such as theSalvation Army or Goodwill Industries
that offer assistance with that.
(03:13):
And there's a lot of websites thesedays that offer templates to just
guide you through your resume.
And there's a lot of them.
LinkedIn does it, Indeed does it.
I know there's many others, butyou do have a lot of help to
prepare a resume now these days.
Mike (03:28):
How do you explain, like, let's say I had to take time off for, to
treat my depression or we've had so manyguests on here who have had to shut down
everything in order to treat themselves.
How do you explain gaps in a resume?
Abbie (03:41):
Gaps are, they're there.
And the best way that I canexplain it is stay positive.
I mean, forward focus.
Make sure that you're sayingI took some time off for
wellbeing to take care of myself.
And now I'm ready.
I'm better and I'm ready to showyou know, everybody what I can do.
You know, don't make it all aboutanything bad, turn it to a positive.
(04:04):
So you're going to have gaps.
And I want to make sure that youknow you don't have to say too much,
just say you focused on yourself,and what you can provide the
employer now that you have recovered.
Mike (04:15):
Oh, I love that.
So in other words, you don't haveto do the the A, B and C of the
war story of what all you wentthrough, but you also don't lie.
Right?
Abbie (04:25):
Yeah, do not lie.
Be honest.
Always, always be honest.
And one thing I think isgreat about resumes too, is.
You can put them in a timelineor you can put your strengths
and what you've achieved and theaccomplishments that you've made at
the top of it and do a summary of that.
And I feel like by doing that, it focusesa little bit more to the employer on
(04:46):
what you have achieved, and it takesaway a little bit from that timeline.
So that's one way I've seenpeople do this in the past.
Mike (04:53):
Wait you know what, Abbie, that has you just said something that's
never occurred to me in my entire life.
So if I'm doing a resume.
Because we all think about itin chronological terms, right?
Linear.
Abbie (05:04):
Right.
Mike (05:05):
Well, you can just list, you're saying you could just list your
jobs and what you've accomplishedand leave the linear part out.
Abbie (05:11):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yes.
Mike (05:13):
(laugh) That never occurred to me at all.
Abbie (05:16):
Highlight what you've done in the past.
Highlight your achievements,highlight what's gone well,
and then it takes a focus off.
Mike (05:24):
Well, so now I'm have my resume ready to go and I'm
actually lucky enough, right?
Or to get an interview.
How do you handle difficultinterview questions?
If you did, if you did do it . And it'slike, let's say somebody says, I see
there are gaps in your work history.
Abbie (05:40):
You know, that's going to be tough for each person and
you can do a couple of things.
You can be very minimalistic about it.
You can say simply what I said before isI took some time off for personal health.
I'm in a better place andready to show what I can do.
You can share a little bit moreabout it, such as I took some
time off because of my health.
(06:01):
I feel that I've achieved a lot andI want to show you how I can do that.
You can share your experience,what you went through.
I went through recovery, I did.
Use this with caution because there's somecompanies that are going to understand,
but there's companies that won't.
So don't divulge too much.
But you can be honest about it, but doit with caution, there is risk to that.
Mike (06:24):
Since you mentioned yourself individually can I ask you a
couple of questions about that?
Abbie (06:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mike (06:30):
Because that's an interesting part.
It would be nice if everybody treatedthis as a disease but they don't, right?
So not all businesses understand whatwe're talking about today is that
you're actually a better employee beingin recovery from a mental illness or
your addiction than some of the peopleactually working for 'em currently.
Abbie (06:51):
I agree.
I agree.
And you always need to rememberthat, that what happened is not a
fault or it's not a flaw on you.
It's made you a better person.
It's got you where you are today.
So when you're going through thetough times, when you don't have
a recruiter call you back after aninterview and that you have to go back
on everything that you've achieved,what you've went through and where you
(07:13):
are because mental illness is dark.
I have not gone through addictionrecovery, but I'm sure it's similar.
It's dark and you have to getthrough a very dark period.
Not everybody has experienced that.
That makes you stronger.
Mike (07:27):
Were you nervous then going back in that you didn't know what to say
or how you would say it to begin with?
Abbie (07:34):
I did not have to interview after I was out.
I worked for a couple of companies thatI did have to take some time off and came
back into the workforce and thankfullythey were understanding companies.
But getting back into the workforce.
When you're going into a new company,you don't know what you're going into.
Mike (07:53):
Right.
Abbie (07:54):
There's that question mark.
There are opportunities out therecalled second chance opportunities.
So the good news is, is I believethat there is more focus on mental
illness than there was 20 years agowhen I started my journey with mental
illness, but it's not everywhere.
But there's a lot of companies whoare looking to hire people who do have
(08:16):
disability, a mental illness, a recoveryaddict, and give them a second chance.
So I would say that's alwaysa good place to start.
Look for those companies.
Mike (08:25):
Yeah.
We've interviewed a bunch of them on thispodcast and employment is such a huge
thing for somebody in recovery to helpthem get their feet back on the ground.
I do know this part.
Okay, you're the expert.
I do know this part.
If I commit a felony, I think I haveto disclose that on the application.
But otherwise...
Abbie (08:46):
It's always about, be honest.
If they ask you on an application,you do have to be honest about it.
You can not disclose or you can,you know, market, not disclose why,
or you can be proactive about itand say, I'm filling out this form.
I do want you to know that I diddo this while this was happening
and because of that, I do havethis, but I'm in a better place.
(09:09):
I always think that it's asking for,you know, letting them know first.
So it's not a shock to them.
Mike (09:14):
Yeah.
Abbie (09:14):
It's always a good thing.
Once again, every company is goingto be different, how they react.
But I think it's a good way to go.
Mike (09:21):
Do all companies do a background check?
Abbie (09:24):
No, they do not.
It's very specific to companies.
I mean, if you're going to get intotransportation or anything with
delivery and that they're going todo a driver's license, you know, make
sure your driving record is okay.
If you're going to getinto some other industries.
They are going to do background checks ifit's governmental, if it's something to do
with that, but there are companies whereit's contingent on a background check.
(09:45):
So not every company does it,but there are companies that do.
So you need to be prepared for it.
Mike (09:51):
What would you tell somebody ahead of time who maybe at 18 or 19
had a DUI and that would show up on abackground check, but now they're 30.
So this is literally 12 years ago.
They don't even think about it anymore.
Really?
Abbie (10:05):
Be honest.
Everybody has done things in theirpast that maybe they aren't thrilled.
When I was 18, I wasn'tdoing what I'm doing now.
I was doing a lot that I probablyshouldn't have been doing.
So but that's where again, letthem know, it was 12 years ago.
I was young.
I made a mistake.
But this is what I've learnedfrom it, and this is how I'm
going to move forward with it.
(10:25):
Always follow up with what you're goingto do about it or what you did about it.
Make it a positive thing.
Mike (10:31):
What if substance use affected your work performance or mental illness?
And then, how would youaddress that in a resume?
Or do you have to leave thatpart of employment out because
you don't want them to call?
Abbie (10:45):
If it's a long period of time, no, I mean, don't leave it out of your
resume because if they do a check wherethey're looking at your background
history of work, it'll come up.
When you do have to dosomething like that.
See if there's any colleagues.
Or any coworkers that you workedwith that might be able to
give you a good recommendation.
I always say that it's nice to have acharacter reference, somebody who can
(11:07):
write a letter for you and tell aboutall the good things that you have done.
But if it gets to the point where they'relike, I have to have a former company, you
might have to come out and be a little bitmore honest with them about what happened.
That's just my thought.
Mike (11:22):
This has something to do with the topic, but it's a little on a tangent.
I think everybody talks about this.
Part of leaving a companysometimes... our relationships.
And if I'm not gettingalong with my superior.
And I've had that happen to me where,and trust me, Abbie, it wasn't me.
Right.
Abbie (11:41):
Of
Mike (11:41):
course, it never is!
So I don't want to use thatperson as a reference because we
don't have a good relationship.
And that makes me a littleshould I still be using my old
boss or can I use a colleague?
Abbie (11:56):
That's a great question.
Everybody has had bad experienceswith former supervisors.
I mean, if you've had a great run ofsupervisors, I've been in the workforce
since, let's see here, 35 years.
And I've had some great managers.
I've had some managers that Ihaven't seen eye to eye with.
No, any reference that you'regoing to do, make sure that you
ask them first and that they'regoing to give you a good reference.
(12:20):
If they ask you why you left, which is acommon question by a company, be honest.
I enjoyed working there.
However, I didn't see eye to eye,and we just decided to part ways.
Be honest about it.
Companies and interviewers know,recruiters, that not everybody...
Now, if it's the past five jobs, thenyou're going to have to look at it a
(12:42):
little bit differently, but don't saynegative things about the employer.
I can't emphasize that enough.
Don't bash the employer.
Don't put fault on them.
Say you didn't see eye to eye,and you decided to part ways.
Mike (12:54):
Now that's going to take practice, right?
Because we're not good at this.
We don't have to do this 10 times a week.
If you do it 10 times in yourlifetime that would be a lot.
So you're going to be nervous.
Abbie (13:05):
That's so true.
You're going to be nervous.
And it's so easy for me to talk about itbecause I've been doing this for so long.
Being nervous is okay.
Be prepared.
Don't go into an interviewwithout knowing about the company.
What they do, who you'reinterviewing with.
I mean, there are so many waysthat you can see who you're
interviewing with these days.
(13:25):
LinkedIn is a great example.
People's profiles are on LinkedIn.
You can do research on it.
So there's going to be nervous, butthe more prepared you are to go in
knowing about the company in that.
I think the nerves get less a littlebit, but I think it'd be unrealistic
to not be nervous for an interview
Mike (13:41):
And turning it into a positive.
As you said, it's reallyimportant, isn't it?
In other words, you're now healthy.
You're now taking care of yourself.
Abbie (13:51):
Give yourself a pat on the back for what you've gone through.
And, you know, I can't talk for everycompany that, you know, they're going to
understand they're going to be open to it.
But, there are companiesout there that will.
Mike (14:05):
I think sometimes people, whether it's just adding on, or if
it's the root cause, the job itselfcan cause anxiety, stress, and issues.
Health issues and mental health issues.
So can you reset?
You don't have to go into the sameline of business that you were in
(14:27):
before or we're even educated in.
How do you address that?
If you wanna take a right-hand turn.
Abbie (14:33):
Take it.
Yeah.
Take it in sections.
Start out with what isit that you love to do?
What brings you happiness.
What's something that you feel thatyou would focus on and then take
it into how much of it can I take?
How much can I do?
Because you don't want to just jumpinto employment, get any job and jump
(14:53):
into it for the reason of I need ajob because you want to find the job
that's going to give you enjoyment.
And not stress you out too much.
There are jobs out there.
You don't want to get into beinga supervisor of a team of 10.
That's a lot of stress.
You want to get into something that'sgoing to work with your recovery and
make you feel good at the same time.
(15:14):
Don't allow it to set you back.
Whatever you want to do,research it, look into it.
Maybe talk to some other people arein the industry and see how is it?
You can go back into whatyou've done, but think about it.
How did I feel when I was in that job?
How did it make me feel?
Did it trigger me into where I was?
(15:35):
You know, you want toavoid that at all costs.
And, I have left a job because it wasputting me so down that I could barely
even get up and go to work the next day.
I needed to have a paycheck.
So I did it.
And the end result of it was.
I bottomed out, I bottomed out andI had to build myself back up again.
(15:58):
Don't do that.
You've come too far.
And there's so much helpyou can get out there now.
Focus on yourself.
Mike (16:03):
That takes some work, doesn't it?
Because it would be natural to wantto jump back in salary wise without
necessarily taking care of yourself.
So knowing what you can handleis going to take some work too.
Abbie (16:15):
Yes, it is.
You will need supports.
How I did it is I had a lot of supportand I'm very blessed with that.
I hope listeners are but thereare some that maybe aren't.
Find somebody who cansupport you with that.
But always make sure that you arefocusing on what's best for you.
Yeah, you need support, and you need tounderstand that if you left a job making X
(16:40):
amount of money and you were doing great,but you were stressed out and you had no
work life balance and it, but you're notgoing to, you don't want to go back there.
Go back to school.
Maybe get a little bit of educationon some different things to do.
Start in a different profession.
But remember, anytime you startin a different profession, you
don't just walk in at mid level,you do have to learn up to it.
(17:03):
And there's a lot of tools thatyou get there can get you there.
However, you have to be realistic.
So be okay with it.
Don't stress yourself out.
But no, yeah, there's probably goingto be a little bit of a pay gap.
You'll get back there.
You'll get back there.
Mike (17:18):
That work life balance, I think, is really important.
How does one go about settingboundaries to take care of yourself
when things are being heaped upon you?
We're now seeing at the federallevel a whole bunch of anxiety
and people losing their jobs.
So, in other words, if I'm workingall of a sudden tomorrow with 25
percent less employees, that's goingto create a little bit of stress.
Abbie (17:41):
A little bit of stress.
Absolutely.
The key thing you said thereis take care of yourself.
How do you take care of yourself?
The good thing that's happeningthese days is a lot of companies are
big believers in work life balance.
They want you to work, but they believein taking time off for yourself.
They have personal days.
They have health days.
They give you incentives formaybe doing healthy things.
(18:03):
Find companies like thatthat are gonna be open to it.
It doesn't mean that you can take everyday off, but it means that they're gonna
be more forgiving and give you time tofocus on your life yourself and all that.
When I started working, you worked eightto five and you took a half an hour lunch.
You didn't go away fordoctor appointments.
You didn't go away for anything.
You were there.
And fast forward to now, there'sso much more flexibility for you
(18:27):
to be able to focus on yourself.
But you have to make sure youare going to the right companies.
It's okay to ask an interview.
Tell me a little bit about your culture.
Tell me how you embrace work life balance.
That's important to me.
It's important to a lot of people.
Mike (18:41):
I think people are afraid to ask questions about the company.
But that's a good thing, right?
Abbie (18:48):
It's a great thing.
When I interview somebody and ifI ask them, what questions do you
have and they don't ask anything.
To me, I'm like, you'vegot to be kidding me.
You know, I've interviewed you.
I've told you some things, butyou have to have questions for me.
I always go into aninterview with questions.
Why do you like working here?
Why have you stayed here?
Tell me how you got into this company.
(19:10):
You know, all of that.
People like to talk about themselves.
Talk about, you know, talk about themor how they got into it's okay to ask
about, tell me about your culture.
Culture is a huge thing right now.
It's culture.
Benefits are becoming bigger, butculture is becoming defined as a
really important part of an employer.
Mike (19:30):
Do you think that's generational?
Is that driven by the younger people?
Abbie (19:34):
I think it is.
I do, because you go back to, you know,1990s when I was getting into work.
My parents went to work andthey stayed there for 40 years
and they went eight to five.
And that was the mindset.
And that mindset was instilledinto me, the Gen X. So that's my
mindset, but the mindsets change asthe generations come around and it
(19:58):
absolutely has something to do with that.
It absolutely does becauseyou get set in your ways.
Let's be honest, to me, working eightto five is just kind of something that I
know it took me time to think, Oh, I canreally take off and and go to a doctor
appointment or something during the day.
It's still hard for me to dobecause I'm so ingrained in
(20:18):
me, but embrace it, embrace it.
Mike (20:22):
I hope they won't mind me doing this, but one of my kids
has a friend who just interviewedand I admired this so much.
In the interview process said, yeah, whatyou're offering, I would like more PTO,
not a ton, but advocating for yourselfin the initial stages is not a bad thing
(20:45):
because that's where the bar is set.
Right.
In that first initial stages.
Abbie (20:49):
Yes.
Advocate, negotiate.
PTO is the one thing that Ifeel is always negotiable.
Let me go back on that.
Depending, it's always negotiable,. We work with a lot of candidates
where the PTO is somethingthat needs to be adjusted.
There's some companies thatyou earn a day for every year
that you're there or something.
(21:10):
Yeah.
You know, two weeks, you know, makesure that you're getting some time.
PTO is probably a little bitmore negotiable sometimes than
salary, depending on the company.
I feel that that's theway, but negotiate it.
I always say, what do you have to lose?
But again, focus on what'sgoing to be best for you.
Focus on making sure it's going to be theright company in that, but negotiate PTO.
Mike (21:34):
And how would you handle it when you're working?
If you feel yourself, weall have ups and downs.
This is the time of year where forthose of you listening, we're in
the tail end of winter or, you know,we like to call it spring, right?
And it's hard for some of us.
It's cold.
Yesterday it was three.
So, you know, if you find yourself ina dip, how do you advocate for yourself
(22:00):
so you don't slip below that levelwhere it's going to affect your work?
Abbie (22:06):
Coming from a depression side, personally, this is the
worst time of year for me.
After Christmas.
You know, it's the depths of January, thedepths of February, the days are shorter.
You wake up, it's dark.
You go to bed, it's dark.
Those are the difficult times.
If you're having a hard time,think of how much can I handle?
Know that going into anyjob, how much can I handle?
(22:27):
And if you're getting into a situationwhere you feel like I'm overloaded, the
only thing that you can do is speak upabout it and say, here's where I'm at and
I need you to know this and go from there.
Honesty is great, but make sure thatyou're just focusing on yourself
and how much you can handle.
I wouldn't say have it be somethingthat you're doing all the time,
(22:49):
but you can speak up about it.
Mike (22:51):
Yeah, because if the employer is not going to be responsive to that, then maybe
it's time to begin looking again, right?
Abbie (23:00):
The one thing you want to do is that's why I say prepare yourself for
a couple, you can't know everything.
I mean, the internet, Google.
AI these days.
You can learn a lot abouta company before going in.
Make sure you're doing your research andknowing what type of company is this.
Are they a culture driven orare they a company that is more
driven on the nine to five work.
(23:23):
So know going in and knowhow much you can handle.
That's why the first answeris prepare, prepare to go in.
You don't want to be leaving everyjob because in that I feel that it
gives you a little bit of an excuse.
So if you're feeling and you know, likeit's overwhelming, do what you can to
step back, raise your hand, but thendon't necessarily say it's the next job.
(23:44):
See what you can do.
If you think it's too much, well,then you have to, it's time to go.
Mike (23:49):
And your recovery support network can also be your
employment support network.
Abbie (23:54):
You have to have people to lean on, lean on your recovery network, lean
on your friends, lean on your family.
You can't do this without that.
In my personal opinion, evenif you have one person who
you can rely on, rely on them.
My support network, thankfully Ihad a great support network that
I've leaned into for a long time.
(24:16):
I still do.
So have that support network.
It's important.
And know your limits,know your boundaries.
Know, your boundaries.
That's why going in part time,easing yourself into a job,
volunteering, stuff like that.
There are different ways to do that,but don't get in over your head.
Mike (24:33):
And I'll let you go with this, but I would think in any climate that
patience and perseverance is criticalbecause it, it may not, it may be.
The first one you get is theone you stay in 20 years, but it
may take a while to reconstruct.
Abbie (24:49):
Recovering from anything is difficult.
And persevering through it,from my experience, it's hard to
do because your mind's tellingyou, you know, I can't do this.
You can if it's the righttime and place for you.
But, don't push yourself too much, butknow that you've gone through so much.
(25:13):
You can do a lot, but don't do it toomuch to put you back where you were.
That's what's most important.
Move forward, forward focusing.
If you feel like you're starting toslip back, raise your hand and make sure
that you're taking care of yourself.
Most importantly, just don't useit as an excuse all the time.
Because I know, personally, you can.
You know, oh, this is alittle bit too much for me.
(25:34):
Back when I was starting to strugglewith this, I would make excuses.
It's not my fault.
I just don't, I just don't feel good.
I don't want to do it.
I felt fine.
I just didn't want to do itbecause of my mental illness.
So persevere, not always easy.
It's probably gonna be thetoughest thing that you have to do.
Mike (25:51):
Well, and I said that would be the last one, but you just, that
also means continuing to get helpso that you're aware when you're
putting things off and when you'reactually taking care of yourself.
Abbie (26:02):
Never stop getting help, ever stop getting help.
I still get help and I'm in, 30 yearsago is when I was first diagnosed
and if I didn't, I would slip back.
So I still get help.
Please never step away from help.
You might feel like you can still do it.
(laugh)
Go to your network, go to your friends.
(26:22):
Talk to them about it.
Mike (26:25):
This is an area, you know, I've done a lot of podcasts where I know the topic.
I didn't know this one as nearly as well.
This has been so informative.
Abbie, thank you so much.
Abbie (26:35):
Thank you, Mike.
I couldn't have been happier totalk about such a wonderful topic.
So you know, everybody go get 'em.
You can do it.
Just be prepared.
And I know that there's ups and downs.
Mike (26:46):
That's great.
As you know who listened,there are links to the Panaro
Group attached to the podcast.
And for everybody listening, we invite youalways to listen at any time you're able.
Until then, stay safe, andlet's see, since it's basketball
season, keep shooting untilthe ball goes through the hoop.
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