November 13, 2024 • 38 mins
Words matter. Words are powerful, so powerful that many of us avoid talking about certain topics because of the emotions the words create. Jessica Lahey, the author of the New York Times bestselling books, The Gift of Failure: How the Best Parents Learn to Let Go So Their Children Can Succeed and The Addiction Inoculation: Raising Healthy Kids in a Culture of Dependence, discusses losing her good friend to depression and suicide and her hesitancy in writing about it. Jessica’s work, including her article about her friend Mary Moore, and contact information can be accessed at Jessica Lahey. Our previous discussion is here: The Addiction Inoculation - Avoiding the Addiction Affliction
The views and opinions of the guests on this podcast are theirs and theirs alone and do not necessarily represent those of the host, Westwords Consulting or the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition.
We're always interested in hearing from individuals or organizations who are working in substance use disorder treatment or prevention, mental health care and other spaces that lift up communities. This includes people living those experiences. If you or someone you know has a story to share or an interesting approach to care, contact us today!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike (00:12):
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
Words matter.
Words are powerful, so powerfulthat many of us avoid talking
about certain topics because ofthe emotions those words create.
(00:34):
I'm so pleased today to haveback as our guest Jessica Lahey.
Jess is the author of the New YorkTimes bestselling book, The Gift of
Failure, How the Best Parents Learn toLet Go So Their Children Can Succeed,
and the book we talked about the lasttime, The Addiction Inoculation, Raising
Healthy Kids in a Culture of Dependence,as well as as a blog post, we're
(00:56):
going to talk about it length today.
Jess was awarded the Research Societyon Alcohol's Media Award for outstanding
journalistic efforts of writers whocover empirical research on alcohol and
for her book, The Addiction Inoculationand Advocacy for the Recovery Community.
Over 20 years, Jess has taught everygrade from 6th to 12th in both public
(01:16):
and private schools, and spent fiveyears teaching in a drug and alcohol
rehab for adolescents in Vermont.
She serves as a prevention and recoverycoach at SANA, Medical Detox and
Recovery Center in Stowe, Vermont.
And has written about education,parenting, child welfare for the
Washington Post, The Atlantic,her bi-weekly column, The Parent
Teacher Conference ran for threeyears at the New York Times.
(01:39):
She has a podcast and links to allof that is on our website here.
Welcome back, Jess.
Jessica (01:45):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so grateful to be back.
Mike (01:49):
Well, I really enjoyed our conversation last time.
And, you know, occasionally I'vehad people back and I don't want to
recreate the entire conversation.
It's available and there's a link toactually her last podcast on the blurb.
So go listen to it.
But for those of you who didn't hearthe conversation you talked about
your own history and that you becamewhat you saw in your family and swore
(02:14):
that you never wanted to become.
Jessica (02:16):
Yeah, that happens a lot.
I mean, I know someone in recoverywho, you know, used to hang out as a
little little kid at 12 step meetings.
She grew up with both parentsin 12 step and yet here we are.
I mean, you know, it's a tricky thing,you know, substance use disorder sneaks up
on you in ways that I did not understand.
(02:37):
And before I knew it, youknow, I was in real trouble.
Mike (02:40):
Well, I think that adds an additional layer onto the shame, right?
Jessica (02:46):
Mm hmm.
Oh, yeah.
Mike (02:47):
That you talk about.
And you talk about the healingand even discarding the shame.
How do you go about doing that?
Jessica (02:55):
You know, for me, the shame part was tough because there are, you
know, there's this phase during recoverywhere, you know, I happened to get sober
in 12 step that was my route to recoveryand people can do it lots of ways, but
one of the steps I had to go throughwas this, you know, making amends thing.
And that to me was the scariest partbecause I did some things that I'm really,
(03:17):
really not proud of and you know, for me,there's a lot of, you know, yeah, I was
up on a high horse getting upset with youabout the fact that you were drinking and
yet I was doing it and I'm really sorrythat was, you know, that sort of thing.
But then, you know, there's alsojust stuff that you know, I just,
if I hadn't been drinking and Ihadn't been so completely obsessed
(03:40):
with where I was going to get mynext drink, I never would have done.
And, you know, even just littlethings like, I threw a, I'm the
kind of person who walks alongthe street and picks up trash.
That's just, I just do that.
I live in Vermont.
It's beautiful.
The idea that people can throw trashout their car window drives me bananas.
And I did that but I also made amendsfor it by like the next day by going
(04:05):
out and picking up just not only mytrash, but like lots of other people's
trash, but just little things thatI never in a million years thought I
would do because that's just not me.
And yet when I was in the depthsof, it really had its hooks on me.
Sorry for all the mixed metaphors.
I did a lot of things that Ididn't think that I would ever do.
Mike (04:22):
Did you have anybody when you tried to make amends say, yeah, later?
Jessica (04:28):
Sort of, yes.
And you know, I haveto just live with that.
There's a beautiful, beautiful accountof that in a book called, and I'm looking
over at my bookshelf to find it right now,but there's a, there's a beautiful mother
daughter account called The Lost Years.
And in it, the person who had ithas alcohol, well, substance use
(04:53):
disorder goes to make amends forsomething really heinous that she did.
And the person was really not interestedwas, it was so hurtful that the person was
not that interested, but came up with ascheme for her to make amends over time.
And I just, I read that account ofher making amends for something she
did that was just so, to me anyway,something that would have been
(05:16):
so difficult to make amends for.
And my, you know, my respect for herjust goes way up because the fact that
people are dedicated enough to theirrecovery, that they will do things that
sound undoable when you're, Before youget there, before you get to a place
in recovery where you know that honestyis the most important thing and then
(05:37):
that's to answer your question, yourfirst question, which is, you know, I
was raised to not be allowed to talkabout my parents substance use disorder.
It was this to quote Susan Cheever,John Cheever's daughter, who's
written beautifully about substanceuse disorder, alcohol use disorder.
It was this elephant in our house andit was stomping on my family and no
(06:01):
one was allowed to point at it andsay, what's up with the elephant?
You know, we were told it was a zebra.
We were told it wasn't just wasn't there.
And for a kid that's so painfulbecause that's gaslighting right?
When you say Yeah, I hear what you'resaying about the reality you're
experiencing, but I would like youto substitute it with the one that
I've come up with that may or may notbe true, you know, to that person.
(06:24):
That gaslighting just made me so angry.
And years later, this is actually, andI don't mean to I hate it when people
do this, when people just drop names,but I'm going to drop a name because
it was an important moment for me.
I was at lunch interviewingAlan Alda, like...
Mike (06:38):
Oh wow.
Jessica (06:40):
Yeah.
So this person that I used to watch MASHwith, my mom had a big crush on him.
It was a big huge deal.
And one of the things I pickedup from reading all of his books
was that he hates euphemisms.
And he didn't even realize at the timeand I put this in the interview in the,
and in the article that's in the Atlantic.
I said, you know, you justreally seem to hate euphemisms.
(07:00):
And he, as a science writer, as a scienceexplainer, as someone who grew up not
being able to call things certain things.
His mother had some mental illnessissues and when his mother was dying
no one wanted to call it dying.
And, you know, I just, I hadthis realization when I was
interviewing him that, wow,that's a through line with me too.
(07:21):
I want people to call thingsby the names they are.
And that's been one of the realitiesof what I do now on stage when I'm
talking about one of my, the pointsof my job is to tell parents, to tell
people, to tell teachers sometimes,the things that the research says
are true, but can be hard to hear.
(07:43):
And I do that with humor and I dothat with lots of things, but above
and beyond it means that that'swhat we do in our own family.
It's what I do with my own children.
It's what I do.
You know, I had a womanapproach me in a bar.
I was sitting, eating at therestaurant bar in an airport.
And this woman came up to me andshe was so mad because she'd gotten
(08:04):
in trouble with a flight attendant.
And I was overhearing herconversation because it was very loud.
(laugh) And she turned to me and she'slike, Have I had too much to drink?
And this is one of those moments thatpeople in recovery are like, Here it is!
It's my shining moment!
And she turned to me and she said,have I had too much to drink?
And I'm like, well, yeah, Imean, you're yelling and we don't
(08:27):
know you and you're very angry.
And it sounds like you got introuble with a flight attendant
for being loud and unruly.
And so I'm going to,I'm going to say, yeah.
And I got her to give me her numberso that I could text her and make
sure she made it home safely.
Someone was picking her up.
But, you know, when someone turns toyou and asks a question like that,
honesty that will be something whetheror not she has an issue with alcohol.
(08:50):
I have no idea.
I don't know her, but she askedme a question and to be anything
other than honest, wouldn'thave flown at that moment.
Well, that'll live with her.
Mike (08:58):
Yeah.
That goes to the conversationwe want to have, right?
That, it's hard to know what to say.
People tell me all the time that I'mlucky because my kids so far have
avoided the deep pool of addictionon both sides of my family history.
And so the word they use is luck, right?
(09:19):
We're lucky.
And I like what you said about your kids.
I'll paraphrase.
You can't promise that they'll avoidthis disease, but you guarantee
that the language of addiction, ofshame, and secrecy will be different.
than in your childhood home.
Jessica (09:37):
Yeah.
Mike (09:38):
I assume you mean more honest?
Jessica (09:41):
Yeah, my daughter...
there was something, how do I tellthis without losing her confidence.
There was something that I was concernedabout with my daughter, and I brought
it up with her, and it turns out thatin discussing it very, very honestly, I
hope, that my concern was a bit misplaced.
And so at first, I think shegot a little irritated with me.
(10:04):
And then I said, look, if you went intomy closet to find something, And you saw a
bottle of vodka on the floor of my closet,I would pray, I would hope that you would
talk to me about it, that you would say,I love you and I support you and you
know, nothing's ever going to change that.
But you know, you said that ifyou kept drinking, you would end
(10:27):
up dead and I found this in yourcloset and we need to talk about it.
That's the language in our household.
I love you and I support you andI will support you no matter what.
However, there is something reallyimportant that we need to talk about.
And my husband does check inswith me every once in a while.
If we're having company over and he wantsto get a bottle of wine to have with the
company, he'll do a check in with me.
If something just feels off, if my moodis feeling off, if I'm not sleeping well.
(10:52):
And I would rather not he do areally deep check in with me because
I'm just not in the mood for it.
He'll do it anyway because that's whatwe do because we care about each other
and there's no room, especially withkids that have a genetic predisposition
for substance use, there's no room forjust sort of tiptoeing around and hoping
the problem will go away because we knowthat they have an elevated risk for it.
(11:13):
So I can't just tiptoe around.
And you know, I do it in a way thatdoesn't make it so that my kids, you know,
are so annoyed at me and are like, canwe not talk about this every 10 minutes?
But they also know I'm goingto be very honest about it.
Mike (11:26):
I think it's hard because let's just use the both of us, for you and
I, the pictures of the families wegrew up in are so vivid and clear that
we just assume, I think sometimes,well, that the next generation
also sees the same vivid picture.
And they don't becausethey didn't live it.
So they sometimes thinkwe're over dramatizing.
Jessica (11:49):
No, I mean, I have an easy go.
I had a very, very easy go ofhaving a parent who is an alcoholic,
but I was required to be theparent and that's just not fair.
You know, anytime parent ends up being thechild in, even if it's just in situations,
that's incredibly difficult for a child.
(12:09):
And anytime a child is being gaslitand told them, no, no, no, what
you're seeing plainly in frontof you is not what you're seeing.
That, you know, people who, youknow, there's an entire history of
people who feel like they're goinginsane because of gaslighting.
It's not fair to do to a child.
And I will just won'tdo that to my children.
It's too important that they, youknow, for their future relationships.
(12:34):
Oh, you know, when we've had concernsover a relationship, not necessarily
because we don't like the person orwhatever, you know, we tiptoe around
the fact that that's not our livesand we can't live our lives for them.
But if, for example, if we were to seethat we think our kid is being emotionally
damaged, or our kid is being abused,or our kid is being taken advantage of.
I think, you know, those are importantthings to remember that, you know, kids
(12:58):
who are taken advantage of as childrenare more likely to allow themselves
to be taken advantage of as adults.
And so, it's really important thateverything about the cycle of being the
youngest, I think I'm the youngest personin recovery in my whole, no, that's
not true, there's another person inrecovery in my family of this generation.
(13:18):
We can't let this go onto the next generation.
That also means, by the way, that Iam an aunt to two wonderful girls.
And I am the go to forthose conversations.
Sure, their parents have them.
Their mom has them all the time.
Mom and dad are divorced.
Their mom has them all the time.
But I'm the one that I'mjust going to do a check in.
(13:40):
When one of them moved to LosAngeles, I made sure she had a harm
reduction kit, that she had Narcan,that she had fentanyl test strips.
And I said to her, you know, this isnot because I think you're going to
rush right out and start using opiates,but this is because she's had friends
who have died from opiate overdoses.
And It's really important thatshe is equipped with the things
she needs in order to save someoneelse's life, in order to be safe.
(14:04):
If she does choose to use, I don't know,a party drug or something, and she wants
to use MDMA, she has a fentanyl test kit.
I'm not going to pretend thatthey're never going to be tempted.
And, you know, the conversations like thisand about the article that you wanted to
talk about is just because we talk aboutsex with our kids does not mean that
it's going to make them want to have sex.
(14:25):
Just because we talk about suicide doesnot put the idea in someone's head.
If someone is going to attempt,sorry, I have to use the exact
right language because they've.
The language is really important.
If someone wants to possibly taketheir life by suicide, believe me,
I'm not gonna be the, if I talk aboutit, it's not going to be the first
time that they've thought about it.
(14:46):
So calling things by their namesis incredibly important to me as
a journalist, as an author, as aparent, as someone in recovery.
There's just, (sigh) we mess aroundat our peril, you know the article
you're talking about, I didn'ttalk about suicide with this person
who did take her life by suicide.
(15:07):
And I'm not saying that I couldhave changed things if I'd just
brought it up, but I continue to havenightmares about the fact that I did
not call the elephant the elephant.
And for my mental health, you know,there's that missing piece of the
puzzle for me, because I didn'tknow how to say the word suicide and
(15:29):
I didn't know how to bring it up.
And for me, that's, that's going tobe something that I've tried to let go
of the shame and I've tried to let goof the guilt around it, but, you know,
my best friend is gone and I didn'tsay that word and it might've helped.
I don't know, but I haveno way of ever knowing.
Mike (15:47):
Well, especially for somebody who had the role of parents when
they were younger feels like maybeyou should have said something.
Well, go into it.
Tell us a little bit about Mary.
The picture you have on your article is...
Jessica (16:02):
Actually, there's another one behind me right here.
When I graduated law school,she was there with me.
Mike (16:06):
It's so joyful.
Jessica (16:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was the last time we were together.
Her name actually is Mary Moore.
She was Southern.
So she has two first names MaryMoore, and her last name was Parham.
And so my last name at the timewas my maiden name was Potts.
And so we sat near each otherin our first in in law school.
And I just, the minute I saw her, evenbefore I knew that we were sitting
(16:29):
near each other she just glowed.
She just radiated joy and charismaand love and she was a connector
and everyone knew that about her.
Like everyone who met her just feltlike she was seeing, she was one of
those really special people who sawpeople very deeply, very quickly.
(16:50):
And so we became friends immediately.
And what I did not know when Imet her was that she struggled
from a cyclic depression.
And so when things started toget very, very dark for her.
We would have her over tomake sure that she ate.
We would have her over to watch,at the time, The X Files was the
show that we watched together.
Actually, we had a dog namedScully who sat right between us.
(17:12):
We took care of her as best we could tomake sure that, you know, she was as best
doing the things that we could do for her,which didn't feel like much at the time.
We surrounded her on that couchwhile we watched X Files and just
attempted to sort of, you know,hold her in that space and keep her.
But things got really dark for her.
And eventually she came out of thatcycle of depression and things got
(17:36):
light again and things were lightfor a while, for a couple of years.
And what I didn't know is that I had movedaway and things started to get dark again.
And what we also didn't know is thatthere was a certain date that she would
make a decision every single year.
Can I do this for another year?
And I think with the darkness descending,she just, even though everything was
(17:59):
going great for her, everything inher life was going so well with that
darkness descending, I think whatshe said to herself was, If life
is this good and I should be reallyhappy and I can't see my way forward,
then no, I can't do another year.
So she was very, very thoughtful.
You know, people say, you know, the way Ithink about this is she was not herself.
(18:22):
She was not the Mary Moore Iknew and loved when she took her
own life because, you know, shecared about people so much that.
I want to say, oh, how could she do that?
We loved her so much.
She loved us so much.
She was not that person.
She was deep in this darkness.
But yeah, she took her life ina way that was as thoughtful as
possible to the people around her.
(18:44):
And it was awful.
It was all, it was, there'sno other way to talk about it.
It was awful.
Mike (18:49):
How did you find out that there was a date every year?
Did she journal it?
Jessica (18:55):
Yeah.
What I didn't know is that there had beena time when she put a plan into practice
years before and it had been on that date.
And so that date just becamethe date every year that she
would make that decision.
Mike (19:10):
You know when we care about somebody, love somebody
and we don't know what to say.
Because we don't, sometimes.
That's the whole point of your article.
The article is called, thisis just to say, and then in
parenthesis, the word suicide.
We sometimes say nothing,rather than say the wrong thing.
Jessica (19:28):
Right.
Well, and, so I had evidence thatwould point to, you know, I had
the evidence of don't talk aboutmy parents substance use disorder.
A friend from college once sentme and this other person what
definitely read as a suicide letter.
And I immediately called for a welfarecheck, and she wasn't at home, she was
(19:51):
at work, and so they had to break downher door, and she was very angry with
me for a while, and then she thanked me.
But she was very angry with me, and,you know, we just are so worried that
we're overreacting, that it's not what itlooks like, that we're misunderstanding
the situation, and you know, I wentback and looked at that email that that
(20:12):
person sent and it was a suicide note!
It really, really was.
And whether she was thinking aboutit in the moment, and you know, the
fact that her door was broken downwas evidence of how much we love her.
And, you know, I talked to theother person who got the letter
because that person called me andwas like, Oh my gosh, what is this?
And we agreed together thatthat was the best decision to
make because this scared us.
(20:34):
And even things like, you know, whenI was a teacher as a writing teacher,
students, especially in their writingclass, write all kinds of stuff.
You know, I've had kids admit to allkinds of things, some of which were
reportable, and some of which werenot, and I'm a mandated reporter as
a teacher, so I, you know, but, youknow, a student will write about...
I had this one student once who wrotepoetry that was very much about death.
(20:58):
In retrospect, and as someone whohas seen a lot of poetry about death,
I mean, look at Emily Dickinson andlook at lots of, you know, it's just
one of the things we write about.
But this was also an adolescent and22%, over 22% of adolescents think
seriously about taking their own life.
And 10% of adolescents admit that atone time or another, they have put
(21:23):
plans into place to take their own life.
Those are big, big numbers.
In fact, when I say those numbers,people look at me like, that's not right.
That, that number can't be right.
That's one in 10 who haveput plans into place.
Even it, it shocks me 22%!
But those are the real numbers andthose are, you know, those are the
(21:44):
nationally, those are the numbers andstate by state, it varies a little bit.
But those are the national numbersand we don't have time to mess
around with stuff like that.
Mike (21:52):
No, we don't.
And I work with kids all the time.
And if you simply crack thedoor open, they'll walk through.
Jessica (21:58):
Yeah.
And sometimes it's not about necessarily,maybe that student wasn't, you know,
contemplating taking her own life.
But, it also means I read the poetry, Iunderstood the poetry, I put myself in her
place, I want to talk to her about what'sin her poetry, I'm seeing and hearing
(22:20):
and looking at her and knowing her.
And either way, that's aconnection between the two of us.
And that also, you know, if she wereto come up against something else,
she would know that I'm one of thosepeople who cares enough to talk
about it and actually say the words.
Because for me, if someone had said,alcoholic or alcohol use disorder.
We didn't use that term then.
(22:41):
When I was a kid, I wouldhave been so relieved.
I would have been so relieved.
It would have been like, Ohmy gosh, the door's open.
I'm allowed to talk about this thing.
Mike (22:50):
Well, I talk about that all the time that that just
didn't happen in our generation.
Well, you know, you talk aboutthis in your article that that
shame over the silence kept youfrom addressing it for so long.
(laugh)
I love the part in your article.
Where you say, okay, so thenyou finally write about it and
isn't this the world we live in?
And then you got criticized for writingabout it in the comment sections, right?
Jessica (23:14):
It's 24 years.
Well, that's the other thing isthat people have really, people
have a lot of baggage going into anyconversation, whether that's about,
you know, it's, it's why it's difficultfor me to get people to come and
talk about substance use prevention.
And I now couch it in other content, likewhere it dovetails with my first book,
The Gift of Failure, because, you know,for example, the best possible substance
(23:38):
use prevention comes from helping kidsfeel like they have self efficacy and
competence and all that sort of stuff.
So fine, that's in Gift of Failure.
I'll approach it that way.
I'll bring my Trojan horse out,jump out of it and start talking
about substance use prevention.
But suicide, you know, for, Ithink it has taken me 24 years.
(23:59):
You know, I stopped havingnightmares about it.
I used to have these nightmares whereI would go to the state she lived
in, and I would look for her and Icouldn't find her and I would panic.
And those dreams only stoppedfor me about 10 years ago.
So I would have been bringing my baggage.
You know, I host a podcast about writingand the publishing industry, and we
(24:22):
always say, If you have somethingreally, really painful to write about,
it may be as best that you talk toa therapist first, because you don't
want your reader to be your therapist.
You know, if you've got unresolvedstuff, maybe talk it through with an
objective third party before attemptingto spill your guts out in a book.
And the books that I have read thatreally someone should have talked through
(24:43):
with a therapist first are just awful.
I feel like I'm, I feel like, They'rejust trauma dumping in a unfiltered way.
And I just wasn't ready to write about it.
And when I've written about like thesuicide thing in the past, even just
by illusion, people have come back andsaid, you know, that's not helpful!
(25:06):
You can't talk about it that way!
You have to talk about it this way.
So instead I stuck with the languageof journalism and the standards
that we have around the language.
Like we don't say someone committedsuicide or someone attempted suicide
because for someone who wanted totake their life and failed, It made
it sound like they failed, right?
If attempt, you attempted it, butyou couldn't even do that, right?
(25:29):
You know, so that's why we'vetaken that language away.
Committed suicide, attempted suicide.
We've taken that, that languageout of the style guides.
It's now that they died by suicideis the way to talk about that.
It's just, it's why I like style guides.
You know, if we have agreed on languagethat has been sort of filtered through
someone who knows what they're talkingabout, a psychologist, and they can
(25:52):
say, you know, that language is harmful.
Maybe we should use this language instead.
It's why in substance use disorder, wetalk about substance use disorder instead
of except the exception is myself.
I call myself an alcoholic.
That's not a term thatI use for other people.
Some people feel that it casts shameand blame on the person themselves.
(26:12):
Instead you're supposed to talk abouta person with an alcohol use disorder.
And that's fine that I do that.
I myself call myself an alcoholic.
There's something stark aboutthat language that reminds me of
just how dire that was for me.
But that's only something I do for myself.
Mike (26:27):
As you think about this, you started it out this way when you said
there, you think about this a lot.
Is there something you wishyou would have said to Mary?
Jessica (26:39):
You know, I, yeah, I mean, I wish just for the sake of having
said it, talking about the elephantin the room, I wish I would have said,
you know, have you been thinking atall about the concept of suicide.
And I I don't know whatshe would have said.
She was a people pleaser.
(27:00):
So she might've said no,just to make me feel better.
In which case I probably would havetalked about it again because her
needing to make other people comfortablewas really, really deep in her.
And who knows, maybe that wasa part of her issue as well.
I don't know.
I want to be the friendthat says the things.
(27:20):
I want to be the person that youcan rely on to say the hard things.
And professionally, that's what I do.
I say the hard things in away that hopefully you can
hear them and digest them.
And so if only for that reason, I doregret it, but I don't for a moment
think that I could have saved herlife if I had just said that thing.
(27:41):
That's much deeper than onehuman being and her depression
was much bigger than me.
It was much bigger than her.
She needed and she got professional help.
But I don't pretend for a momentthat I could have been the hero
that could have swooped down.
And if I had just said something,I could have changed the past.
Mike (27:58):
Yeah.
But I think that applies toalmost everything, right?
Just because I say, are you sureyou want to have that drink?
Or maybe you shouldn't getbehind the wheel of the car.
It just, it sometimes it justneeds to be said, regardless of the
decision that they end up making.
Jessica (28:16):
Oh yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
For me, one of the things that made mea mandated reporter was being a teacher.
And, you know, part of being amandated reporter is understanding
when someone is in imminent peril.
And for me, that's kind ofan imminent peril issue.
Although, you know, it's not like Igo around and say, you know, are you
(28:38):
sure you want to have that drink?
I definitely don't do that.
But if someone looks at me and theysay, Have I had too much to drink?
(laugh)
You know, and it's obvious that they haveand that they're falling off the chair.
Yeah.
Then I'm going to say something, but yeah.
Well, and to that point, so my parentthat is in recovery now had a relapse and
(29:02):
it was Christmas and what that meant forthe family, for me and for my sister, is
that we could not be in that house, andwe would not expose our children to that.
I had gotten sober at that point.
My sister recognizes what growingup around that did to her.
(29:22):
And so she and I agreed together that wewere essentially calling off Christmas,
at least in the form that we had thoughtwe were going to be having Christmas.
And it was really traumatic for everyone.
But we said, these are our children.
It is our job to protect them.
And we will not have this bea part of their lives, let
(29:43):
alone, you know, Christmas.
And so it was awful.
It was the worst Christmas ever.
But I'm really proud of us for doing it.
I'm really proud of us that, youknow, these two kids who were not
empowered as kids, you know, kids,whatever, these two humans who were
not empowered as kids to point at theelephant, you know, we did as adults.
And that was this person's last drink.
(30:06):
So, in that case, wedid change the future.
We were the ones who said this is justwon't be tolerated and these are your
grandchildren and if you want to bearound your grandchildren, because
there were lots of other times whereI didn't do that and I wish I had.
And, you know, you hardly ever get tobe, I talked about this a lot, substance
use prevention and getting someoneto the point where they know they
(30:28):
need help is like a 100 piece puzzle.
And for me, my father wasthe 100th piece in my puzzle.
Right place, right time,right words, right person.
And he said, I know what analcoholic looks like and you're
an alcoholic and you need help.
And this was someone who hatesconflict, hates upsetting me,
(30:49):
hates saying the hard thing.
And he put all of thataside for me that day.
Because he knew I was in real trouble.
And I have so much respectfor him for doing that.
And so on that day, he was my 100th piece.
However, pieces 1 through 99 had to be inplace before my dad could be piece 100.
(31:10):
So on the day that we said somethingto my parent about the Christmas
thing, that was the 100th piece, butthere were 1 through 99 in place that
had been put there through lots ofother ways and reasons and people.
And so don't get your hopes up thatyou're going to get to be piece 100
because that hardly ever happens.
But 1 through 99 has to be thereand substance use prevention
(31:34):
are lots of those pieces.
So my hope, you know, you quoted thepart of the book where I say that I can't
guarantee that my kids will never go downthe road of having substance use disorder.
Genetically, they're predisposed,and I've done my best to use
best practices according tothe evidence that's out there.
But if they do, then they're startingat piece 32 or 47 or 71, whatever it
(31:57):
is, because they've gotten so much ofthe prevention stuff from me and so much
very plain talk around what they're.
Genetically what they're up against.
So I want that to be part oftheir thinking when they decide
whether or not to try that drug,to smoke that joint, to, you know,
whatever it is, to have that drink.
I need for them to have as much evidenceon the con side of that plate, whether
(32:23):
that's, you know, that their brainsaren't done developing, that they have
a history, that, you know, they'regoing to need their short term memory
in order to memorize all that stuffthey've got for that test next Friday.
I need all of that to be on thecon side and that's all substance
use prevention and the stuff thatgets people to recovery faster.
So it does dual duty and soI'm I'm all in either way.
Mike (32:45):
That's great.
You know, there's a book in there.
Jessica (32:48):
(laugh) I wrote i!
Mike (32:52):
You can call it the puzzle, the next one.
Well, and speaking of which, andby the way, for the listener, I
asked Jess if I could ask her thisahead of time because there's a
superstition that happens with authors.
But you're writing,you're writing a new book.
Jessica (33:05):
Well, so I'm, the way I like to talk about it is I'm
very much researching a new book.
So the research, so the way nonfictionwriting works is the way nonfiction
publishing works is you have to do a heckof a lot of research to write a proposal.
And in my case, because they includea sample chapter, and they include
chapter summaries, and they includeall this other stuff, they're
(33:27):
usually around 80 pages long.
For the Addiction Inoculation, Idid a full year of research before I
even attempted to write the proposal.
I have to get to a certain level ofexpertise before I can even talk about it.
And then there was a wholenother two years of research
before I could finish the book.
So I'm researching and almost done withthe proposal for a book that I'm, you
(33:48):
know, I'm really excited about that.
My editor knows aboutmy agent knows about.
So Gift of Failure came out 10 yearsago and the kids in that book who
were, you know, middle school, highschool aged are now emerging adults.
And my kids are emerging adults.
And so I'm writing aboutemerging adulthood and parenting.
You know, parents have a bigger role, Ithink, in their emerging adults life than
(34:12):
we've really ever seen before societally.
So that's what my next book is about.
It's about parenting emergingadults and helping them through
some of the stuff that they have todeal with in you know, these days.
Mike (34:24):
I think that's terrific and well needed.
I can't wait.
And then you get to the [inaudible].
Jessica (34:29):
Well, and the nice thing also about doing all this
research is it's for me too.
I mean, you know, I wrote TheGift of Failure because I had
two teenagers and I wanted tounderstand how over parenting affects
motivation, engagement, and learning.
And I did that and I learned a ton.
So if I had never written thatbook, I still learned a ton.
I wanted to know what best practiceswere for educators and for parents
(34:53):
around substance use prevention.
So if I had never written theaddiction inoculation, if I'd
never sold that book, that's okay.
It's still all for me.
So I'm looking at my resource libraryfor the next book and there's,
you know, I'm looking at shelvesand shelves and shelves of books.
So the nice thing for me is I havenothing to lose in this process.
I'm learning no matter what.
(35:14):
And, you know, I canwrite articles about it.
I can talk about it when I'm out speaking.
So, for me, the book is the frosting, andI love writing, and I love the process
of writing, and I love talking about theprocess of writing, but it's, for me,
it's never really been about the books.
It's about learning how to be the bestpossible parent I can be according to the
(35:36):
research that's out there and saying, I'msorry, and explaining why I'm changing
what I'm doing, whether it's, you know,my parenting around alcohol, which we did
change between my oldest and my youngest.
And there are lots of topics.
I mean, if you were to look at mybookshelves, I'm in a room that's
pretty much all bookshelves.
It's my office.
And there are lots of topics.
There's two entire bookshelves of books ona topic that I was going to write about.
(36:00):
And I learned as much as Iwanted to learn about it.
And I just decided that Ididn't want to write that book.
So that's cool.
I learned all the stuff I wanted.
If you had asked me a couple of years agowhat I was going to write about, I would
have said teaching kids about ethics.
And I'm looking at thosebookshelves right now.
And I'm really glad I read them all.
And that's just not the book Iwanted to write at that time.
Mike (36:20):
That's great.
Well, anything you write, I'm reallyexcited about because it's terrific.
Jessica (36:26):
Thank you.
Mike (36:27):
And leads me to ask you to have another conversation.
Jess, thanks so much for being withus today and for being kind enough
to write the article about Mary.
I thought it was terrific because we getcriticized on both sides that you, you
hear the, you hear buck up deal with it.
And then you hear, Oh, you all,you all are a bunch of snowflakes.
Jessica (36:49):
Right and the one person, you know, interestingly, the one
person I was really concerned aboutwith this piece the people were
her family, her mom and her sister.
And so before I hit publish on thispiece, I called her sister and I
said, because her sister's picture wasgoing to be in my social media feed.
And I just didn't want to upset her.
And so, and we talk aboutthis all the time, by the way.
But I texted her and I said,just so you know Mary Moore's
(37:12):
picture is going to be in my feed.
Just in case you know, I justdon't want you to see that
and not be prepared for it.
She's who I care about most when itcomes to talking about her sister.
And so if she were to say somethingto me, you know, I didn't show her the
piece ahead of time, but she trusted me.
But if there was something that really,really upset her in the article, we would
have talked about that too, because that'spart of talking about the elephants.
Mike (37:36):
Yeah.
And it helps her as well.
Jessica (37:37):
Uh huh.
Mike (37:40):
For those of you who listen, you know that there's links to not only
the article, but all of Jess's work,podcasts, attached to the podcast.
And there's also a link to theprevious podcast on our podcast.
Jessica (37:53):
Oh good.
(laugh)
Mike (37:54):
If that's not too much, we hope any of you can listen in anytime you're able.
And anytime you're able,we'd love to hear from you.
Until next time, stay safe.
And if you love somebody, havea conversation, even if you
don't have the right words.
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
Words matter.
Words are powerful, so powerfulthat many of us avoid talking
about certain topics because ofthe emotions those words create.
(00:34):
I'm so pleased today to haveback as our guest Jessica Lahey.
Jess is the author of the New YorkTimes bestselling book, The Gift of
Failure, How the Best Parents Learn toLet Go So Their Children Can Succeed,
and the book we talked about the lasttime, The Addiction Inoculation, Raising
Healthy Kids in a Culture of Dependence,as well as as a blog post, we're
(00:56):
going to talk about it length today.
Jess was awarded the Research Societyon Alcohol's Media Award for outstanding
journalistic efforts of writers whocover empirical research on alcohol and
for her book, The Addiction Inoculationand Advocacy for the Recovery Community.
Over 20 years, Jess has taught everygrade from 6th to 12th in both public
(01:16):
and private schools, and spent fiveyears teaching in a drug and alcohol
rehab for adolescents in Vermont.
She serves as a prevention and recoverycoach at SANA, Medical Detox and
Recovery Center in Stowe, Vermont.
And has written about education,parenting, child welfare for the
Washington Post, The Atlantic,her bi-weekly column, The Parent
Teacher Conference ran for threeyears at the New York Times.
(01:39):
She has a podcast and links to allof that is on our website here.
Welcome back, Jess.
Jessica (01:45):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so grateful to be back.
Mike (01:49):
Well, I really enjoyed our conversation last time.
And, you know, occasionally I'vehad people back and I don't want to
recreate the entire conversation.
It's available and there's a link toactually her last podcast on the blurb.
So go listen to it.
But for those of you who didn't hearthe conversation you talked about
your own history and that you becamewhat you saw in your family and swore
(02:14):
that you never wanted to become.
Jessica (02:16):
Yeah, that happens a lot.
I mean, I know someone in recoverywho, you know, used to hang out as a
little little kid at 12 step meetings.
She grew up with both parentsin 12 step and yet here we are.
I mean, you know, it's a tricky thing,you know, substance use disorder sneaks up
on you in ways that I did not understand.
(02:37):
And before I knew it, youknow, I was in real trouble.
Mike (02:40):
Well, I think that adds an additional layer onto the shame, right?
Jessica (02:46):
Mm hmm.
Oh, yeah.
Mike (02:47):
That you talk about.
And you talk about the healingand even discarding the shame.
How do you go about doing that?
Jessica (02:55):
You know, for me, the shame part was tough because there are, you
know, there's this phase during recoverywhere, you know, I happened to get sober
in 12 step that was my route to recoveryand people can do it lots of ways, but
one of the steps I had to go throughwas this, you know, making amends thing.
And that to me was the scariest partbecause I did some things that I'm really,
(03:17):
really not proud of and you know, for me,there's a lot of, you know, yeah, I was
up on a high horse getting upset with youabout the fact that you were drinking and
yet I was doing it and I'm really sorrythat was, you know, that sort of thing.
But then, you know, there's alsojust stuff that you know, I just,
if I hadn't been drinking and Ihadn't been so completely obsessed
(03:40):
with where I was going to get mynext drink, I never would have done.
And, you know, even just littlethings like, I threw a, I'm the
kind of person who walks alongthe street and picks up trash.
That's just, I just do that.
I live in Vermont.
It's beautiful.
The idea that people can throw trashout their car window drives me bananas.
And I did that but I also made amendsfor it by like the next day by going
(04:05):
out and picking up just not only mytrash, but like lots of other people's
trash, but just little things thatI never in a million years thought I
would do because that's just not me.
And yet when I was in the depthsof, it really had its hooks on me.
Sorry for all the mixed metaphors.
I did a lot of things that Ididn't think that I would ever do.
Mike (04:22):
Did you have anybody when you tried to make amends say, yeah, later?
Jessica (04:28):
Sort of, yes.
And you know, I haveto just live with that.
There's a beautiful, beautiful accountof that in a book called, and I'm looking
over at my bookshelf to find it right now,but there's a, there's a beautiful mother
daughter account called The Lost Years.
And in it, the person who had ithas alcohol, well, substance use
(04:53):
disorder goes to make amends forsomething really heinous that she did.
And the person was really not interestedwas, it was so hurtful that the person was
not that interested, but came up with ascheme for her to make amends over time.
And I just, I read that account ofher making amends for something she
did that was just so, to me anyway,something that would have been
(05:16):
so difficult to make amends for.
And my, you know, my respect for herjust goes way up because the fact that
people are dedicated enough to theirrecovery, that they will do things that
sound undoable when you're, Before youget there, before you get to a place
in recovery where you know that honestyis the most important thing and then
(05:37):
that's to answer your question, yourfirst question, which is, you know, I
was raised to not be allowed to talkabout my parents substance use disorder.
It was this to quote Susan Cheever,John Cheever's daughter, who's
written beautifully about substanceuse disorder, alcohol use disorder.
It was this elephant in our house andit was stomping on my family and no
(06:01):
one was allowed to point at it andsay, what's up with the elephant?
You know, we were told it was a zebra.
We were told it wasn't just wasn't there.
And for a kid that's so painfulbecause that's gaslighting right?
When you say Yeah, I hear what you'resaying about the reality you're
experiencing, but I would like youto substitute it with the one that
I've come up with that may or may notbe true, you know, to that person.
(06:24):
That gaslighting just made me so angry.
And years later, this is actually, andI don't mean to I hate it when people
do this, when people just drop names,but I'm going to drop a name because
it was an important moment for me.
I was at lunch interviewingAlan Alda, like...
Mike (06:38):
Oh wow.
Jessica (06:40):
Yeah.
So this person that I used to watch MASHwith, my mom had a big crush on him.
It was a big huge deal.
And one of the things I pickedup from reading all of his books
was that he hates euphemisms.
And he didn't even realize at the timeand I put this in the interview in the,
and in the article that's in the Atlantic.
I said, you know, you justreally seem to hate euphemisms.
(07:00):
And he, as a science writer, as a scienceexplainer, as someone who grew up not
being able to call things certain things.
His mother had some mental illnessissues and when his mother was dying
no one wanted to call it dying.
And, you know, I just, I hadthis realization when I was
interviewing him that, wow,that's a through line with me too.
(07:21):
I want people to call thingsby the names they are.
And that's been one of the realitiesof what I do now on stage when I'm
talking about one of my, the pointsof my job is to tell parents, to tell
people, to tell teachers sometimes,the things that the research says
are true, but can be hard to hear.
(07:43):
And I do that with humor and I dothat with lots of things, but above
and beyond it means that that'swhat we do in our own family.
It's what I do with my own children.
It's what I do.
You know, I had a womanapproach me in a bar.
I was sitting, eating at therestaurant bar in an airport.
And this woman came up to me andshe was so mad because she'd gotten
(08:04):
in trouble with a flight attendant.
And I was overhearing herconversation because it was very loud.
(laugh) And she turned to me and she'slike, Have I had too much to drink?
And this is one of those moments thatpeople in recovery are like, Here it is!
It's my shining moment!
And she turned to me and she said,have I had too much to drink?
And I'm like, well, yeah, Imean, you're yelling and we don't
(08:27):
know you and you're very angry.
And it sounds like you got introuble with a flight attendant
for being loud and unruly.
And so I'm going to,I'm going to say, yeah.
And I got her to give me her numberso that I could text her and make
sure she made it home safely.
Someone was picking her up.
But, you know, when someone turns toyou and asks a question like that,
honesty that will be something whetheror not she has an issue with alcohol.
(08:50):
I have no idea.
I don't know her, but she askedme a question and to be anything
other than honest, wouldn'thave flown at that moment.
Well, that'll live with her.
Mike (08:58):
Yeah.
That goes to the conversationwe want to have, right?
That, it's hard to know what to say.
People tell me all the time that I'mlucky because my kids so far have
avoided the deep pool of addictionon both sides of my family history.
And so the word they use is luck, right?
(09:19):
We're lucky.
And I like what you said about your kids.
I'll paraphrase.
You can't promise that they'll avoidthis disease, but you guarantee
that the language of addiction, ofshame, and secrecy will be different.
than in your childhood home.
Jessica (09:37):
Yeah.
Mike (09:38):
I assume you mean more honest?
Jessica (09:41):
Yeah, my daughter...
there was something, how do I tellthis without losing her confidence.
There was something that I was concernedabout with my daughter, and I brought
it up with her, and it turns out thatin discussing it very, very honestly, I
hope, that my concern was a bit misplaced.
And so at first, I think shegot a little irritated with me.
(10:04):
And then I said, look, if you went intomy closet to find something, And you saw a
bottle of vodka on the floor of my closet,I would pray, I would hope that you would
talk to me about it, that you would say,I love you and I support you and you
know, nothing's ever going to change that.
But you know, you said that ifyou kept drinking, you would end
(10:27):
up dead and I found this in yourcloset and we need to talk about it.
That's the language in our household.
I love you and I support you andI will support you no matter what.
However, there is something reallyimportant that we need to talk about.
And my husband does check inswith me every once in a while.
If we're having company over and he wantsto get a bottle of wine to have with the
company, he'll do a check in with me.
If something just feels off, if my moodis feeling off, if I'm not sleeping well.
(10:52):
And I would rather not he do areally deep check in with me because
I'm just not in the mood for it.
He'll do it anyway because that's whatwe do because we care about each other
and there's no room, especially withkids that have a genetic predisposition
for substance use, there's no room forjust sort of tiptoeing around and hoping
the problem will go away because we knowthat they have an elevated risk for it.
(11:13):
So I can't just tiptoe around.
And you know, I do it in a way thatdoesn't make it so that my kids, you know,
are so annoyed at me and are like, canwe not talk about this every 10 minutes?
But they also know I'm goingto be very honest about it.
Mike (11:26):
I think it's hard because let's just use the both of us, for you and
I, the pictures of the families wegrew up in are so vivid and clear that
we just assume, I think sometimes,well, that the next generation
also sees the same vivid picture.
And they don't becausethey didn't live it.
So they sometimes thinkwe're over dramatizing.
Jessica (11:49):
No, I mean, I have an easy go.
I had a very, very easy go ofhaving a parent who is an alcoholic,
but I was required to be theparent and that's just not fair.
You know, anytime parent ends up being thechild in, even if it's just in situations,
that's incredibly difficult for a child.
(12:09):
And anytime a child is being gaslitand told them, no, no, no, what
you're seeing plainly in frontof you is not what you're seeing.
That, you know, people who, youknow, there's an entire history of
people who feel like they're goinginsane because of gaslighting.
It's not fair to do to a child.
And I will just won'tdo that to my children.
It's too important that they, youknow, for their future relationships.
(12:34):
Oh, you know, when we've had concernsover a relationship, not necessarily
because we don't like the person orwhatever, you know, we tiptoe around
the fact that that's not our livesand we can't live our lives for them.
But if, for example, if we were to seethat we think our kid is being emotionally
damaged, or our kid is being abused,or our kid is being taken advantage of.
I think, you know, those are importantthings to remember that, you know, kids
(12:58):
who are taken advantage of as childrenare more likely to allow themselves
to be taken advantage of as adults.
And so, it's really important thateverything about the cycle of being the
youngest, I think I'm the youngest personin recovery in my whole, no, that's
not true, there's another person inrecovery in my family of this generation.
(13:18):
We can't let this go onto the next generation.
That also means, by the way, that Iam an aunt to two wonderful girls.
And I am the go to forthose conversations.
Sure, their parents have them.
Their mom has them all the time.
Mom and dad are divorced.
Their mom has them all the time.
But I'm the one that I'mjust going to do a check in.
(13:40):
When one of them moved to LosAngeles, I made sure she had a harm
reduction kit, that she had Narcan,that she had fentanyl test strips.
And I said to her, you know, this isnot because I think you're going to
rush right out and start using opiates,but this is because she's had friends
who have died from opiate overdoses.
And It's really important thatshe is equipped with the things
she needs in order to save someoneelse's life, in order to be safe.
(14:04):
If she does choose to use, I don't know,a party drug or something, and she wants
to use MDMA, she has a fentanyl test kit.
I'm not going to pretend thatthey're never going to be tempted.
And, you know, the conversations like thisand about the article that you wanted to
talk about is just because we talk aboutsex with our kids does not mean that
it's going to make them want to have sex.
(14:25):
Just because we talk about suicide doesnot put the idea in someone's head.
If someone is going to attempt,sorry, I have to use the exact
right language because they've.
The language is really important.
If someone wants to possibly taketheir life by suicide, believe me,
I'm not gonna be the, if I talk aboutit, it's not going to be the first
time that they've thought about it.
(14:46):
So calling things by their namesis incredibly important to me as
a journalist, as an author, as aparent, as someone in recovery.
There's just, (sigh) we mess aroundat our peril, you know the article
you're talking about, I didn'ttalk about suicide with this person
who did take her life by suicide.
(15:07):
And I'm not saying that I couldhave changed things if I'd just
brought it up, but I continue to havenightmares about the fact that I did
not call the elephant the elephant.
And for my mental health, you know,there's that missing piece of the
puzzle for me, because I didn'tknow how to say the word suicide and
(15:29):
I didn't know how to bring it up.
And for me, that's, that's going tobe something that I've tried to let go
of the shame and I've tried to let goof the guilt around it, but, you know,
my best friend is gone and I didn'tsay that word and it might've helped.
I don't know, but I haveno way of ever knowing.
Mike (15:47):
Well, especially for somebody who had the role of parents when
they were younger feels like maybeyou should have said something.
Well, go into it.
Tell us a little bit about Mary.
The picture you have on your article is...
Jessica (16:02):
Actually, there's another one behind me right here.
When I graduated law school,she was there with me.
Mike (16:06):
It's so joyful.
Jessica (16:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was the last time we were together.
Her name actually is Mary Moore.
She was Southern.
So she has two first names MaryMoore, and her last name was Parham.
And so my last name at the timewas my maiden name was Potts.
And so we sat near each otherin our first in in law school.
And I just, the minute I saw her, evenbefore I knew that we were sitting
(16:29):
near each other she just glowed.
She just radiated joy and charismaand love and she was a connector
and everyone knew that about her.
Like everyone who met her just feltlike she was seeing, she was one of
those really special people who sawpeople very deeply, very quickly.
(16:50):
And so we became friends immediately.
And what I did not know when Imet her was that she struggled
from a cyclic depression.
And so when things started toget very, very dark for her.
We would have her over tomake sure that she ate.
We would have her over to watch,at the time, The X Files was the
show that we watched together.
Actually, we had a dog namedScully who sat right between us.
(17:12):
We took care of her as best we could tomake sure that, you know, she was as best
doing the things that we could do for her,which didn't feel like much at the time.
We surrounded her on that couchwhile we watched X Files and just
attempted to sort of, you know,hold her in that space and keep her.
But things got really dark for her.
And eventually she came out of thatcycle of depression and things got
(17:36):
light again and things were lightfor a while, for a couple of years.
And what I didn't know is that I had movedaway and things started to get dark again.
And what we also didn't know is thatthere was a certain date that she would
make a decision every single year.
Can I do this for another year?
And I think with the darkness descending,she just, even though everything was
(17:59):
going great for her, everything inher life was going so well with that
darkness descending, I think whatshe said to herself was, If life
is this good and I should be reallyhappy and I can't see my way forward,
then no, I can't do another year.
So she was very, very thoughtful.
You know, people say, you know, the way Ithink about this is she was not herself.
(18:22):
She was not the Mary Moore Iknew and loved when she took her
own life because, you know, shecared about people so much that.
I want to say, oh, how could she do that?
We loved her so much.
She loved us so much.
She was not that person.
She was deep in this darkness.
But yeah, she took her life ina way that was as thoughtful as
possible to the people around her.
(18:44):
And it was awful.
It was all, it was, there'sno other way to talk about it.
It was awful.
Mike (18:49):
How did you find out that there was a date every year?
Did she journal it?
Jessica (18:55):
Yeah.
What I didn't know is that there had beena time when she put a plan into practice
years before and it had been on that date.
And so that date just becamethe date every year that she
would make that decision.
Mike (19:10):
You know when we care about somebody, love somebody
and we don't know what to say.
Because we don't, sometimes.
That's the whole point of your article.
The article is called, thisis just to say, and then in
parenthesis, the word suicide.
We sometimes say nothing,rather than say the wrong thing.
Jessica (19:28):
Right.
Well, and, so I had evidence thatwould point to, you know, I had
the evidence of don't talk aboutmy parents substance use disorder.
A friend from college once sentme and this other person what
definitely read as a suicide letter.
And I immediately called for a welfarecheck, and she wasn't at home, she was
(19:51):
at work, and so they had to break downher door, and she was very angry with
me for a while, and then she thanked me.
But she was very angry with me, and,you know, we just are so worried that
we're overreacting, that it's not what itlooks like, that we're misunderstanding
the situation, and you know, I wentback and looked at that email that that
(20:12):
person sent and it was a suicide note!
It really, really was.
And whether she was thinking aboutit in the moment, and you know, the
fact that her door was broken downwas evidence of how much we love her.
And, you know, I talked to theother person who got the letter
because that person called me andwas like, Oh my gosh, what is this?
And we agreed together thatthat was the best decision to
make because this scared us.
(20:34):
And even things like, you know, whenI was a teacher as a writing teacher,
students, especially in their writingclass, write all kinds of stuff.
You know, I've had kids admit to allkinds of things, some of which were
reportable, and some of which werenot, and I'm a mandated reporter as
a teacher, so I, you know, but, youknow, a student will write about...
I had this one student once who wrotepoetry that was very much about death.
(20:58):
In retrospect, and as someone whohas seen a lot of poetry about death,
I mean, look at Emily Dickinson andlook at lots of, you know, it's just
one of the things we write about.
But this was also an adolescent and22%, over 22% of adolescents think
seriously about taking their own life.
And 10% of adolescents admit that atone time or another, they have put
(21:23):
plans into place to take their own life.
Those are big, big numbers.
In fact, when I say those numbers,people look at me like, that's not right.
That, that number can't be right.
That's one in 10 who haveput plans into place.
Even it, it shocks me 22%!
But those are the real numbers andthose are, you know, those are the
(21:44):
nationally, those are the numbers andstate by state, it varies a little bit.
But those are the national numbersand we don't have time to mess
around with stuff like that.
Mike (21:52):
No, we don't.
And I work with kids all the time.
And if you simply crack thedoor open, they'll walk through.
Jessica (21:58):
Yeah.
And sometimes it's not about necessarily,maybe that student wasn't, you know,
contemplating taking her own life.
But, it also means I read the poetry, Iunderstood the poetry, I put myself in her
place, I want to talk to her about what'sin her poetry, I'm seeing and hearing
(22:20):
and looking at her and knowing her.
And either way, that's aconnection between the two of us.
And that also, you know, if she wereto come up against something else,
she would know that I'm one of thosepeople who cares enough to talk
about it and actually say the words.
Because for me, if someone had said,alcoholic or alcohol use disorder.
We didn't use that term then.
(22:41):
When I was a kid, I wouldhave been so relieved.
I would have been so relieved.
It would have been like, Ohmy gosh, the door's open.
I'm allowed to talk about this thing.
Mike (22:50):
Well, I talk about that all the time that that just
didn't happen in our generation.
Well, you know, you talk aboutthis in your article that that
shame over the silence kept youfrom addressing it for so long.
(laugh)
I love the part in your article.
Where you say, okay, so thenyou finally write about it and
isn't this the world we live in?
And then you got criticized for writingabout it in the comment sections, right?
Jessica (23:14):
It's 24 years.
Well, that's the other thing isthat people have really, people
have a lot of baggage going into anyconversation, whether that's about,
you know, it's, it's why it's difficultfor me to get people to come and
talk about substance use prevention.
And I now couch it in other content, likewhere it dovetails with my first book,
The Gift of Failure, because, you know,for example, the best possible substance
(23:38):
use prevention comes from helping kidsfeel like they have self efficacy and
competence and all that sort of stuff.
So fine, that's in Gift of Failure.
I'll approach it that way.
I'll bring my Trojan horse out,jump out of it and start talking
about substance use prevention.
But suicide, you know, for, Ithink it has taken me 24 years.
(23:59):
You know, I stopped havingnightmares about it.
I used to have these nightmares whereI would go to the state she lived
in, and I would look for her and Icouldn't find her and I would panic.
And those dreams only stoppedfor me about 10 years ago.
So I would have been bringing my baggage.
You know, I host a podcast about writingand the publishing industry, and we
(24:22):
always say, If you have somethingreally, really painful to write about,
it may be as best that you talk toa therapist first, because you don't
want your reader to be your therapist.
You know, if you've got unresolvedstuff, maybe talk it through with an
objective third party before attemptingto spill your guts out in a book.
And the books that I have read thatreally someone should have talked through
(24:43):
with a therapist first are just awful.
I feel like I'm, I feel like, They'rejust trauma dumping in a unfiltered way.
And I just wasn't ready to write about it.
And when I've written about like thesuicide thing in the past, even just
by illusion, people have come back andsaid, you know, that's not helpful!
(25:06):
You can't talk about it that way!
You have to talk about it this way.
So instead I stuck with the languageof journalism and the standards
that we have around the language.
Like we don't say someone committedsuicide or someone attempted suicide
because for someone who wanted totake their life and failed, It made
it sound like they failed, right?
If attempt, you attempted it, butyou couldn't even do that, right?
(25:29):
You know, so that's why we'vetaken that language away.
Committed suicide, attempted suicide.
We've taken that, that languageout of the style guides.
It's now that they died by suicideis the way to talk about that.
It's just, it's why I like style guides.
You know, if we have agreed on languagethat has been sort of filtered through
someone who knows what they're talkingabout, a psychologist, and they can
(25:52):
say, you know, that language is harmful.
Maybe we should use this language instead.
It's why in substance use disorder, wetalk about substance use disorder instead
of except the exception is myself.
I call myself an alcoholic.
That's not a term thatI use for other people.
Some people feel that it casts shameand blame on the person themselves.
(26:12):
Instead you're supposed to talk abouta person with an alcohol use disorder.
And that's fine that I do that.
I myself call myself an alcoholic.
There's something stark aboutthat language that reminds me of
just how dire that was for me.
But that's only something I do for myself.
Mike (26:27):
As you think about this, you started it out this way when you said
there, you think about this a lot.
Is there something you wishyou would have said to Mary?
Jessica (26:39):
You know, I, yeah, I mean, I wish just for the sake of having
said it, talking about the elephantin the room, I wish I would have said,
you know, have you been thinking atall about the concept of suicide.
And I I don't know whatshe would have said.
She was a people pleaser.
(27:00):
So she might've said no,just to make me feel better.
In which case I probably would havetalked about it again because her
needing to make other people comfortablewas really, really deep in her.
And who knows, maybe that wasa part of her issue as well.
I don't know.
I want to be the friendthat says the things.
(27:20):
I want to be the person that youcan rely on to say the hard things.
And professionally, that's what I do.
I say the hard things in away that hopefully you can
hear them and digest them.
And so if only for that reason, I doregret it, but I don't for a moment
think that I could have saved herlife if I had just said that thing.
(27:41):
That's much deeper than onehuman being and her depression
was much bigger than me.
It was much bigger than her.
She needed and she got professional help.
But I don't pretend for a momentthat I could have been the hero
that could have swooped down.
And if I had just said something,I could have changed the past.
Mike (27:58):
Yeah.
But I think that applies toalmost everything, right?
Just because I say, are you sureyou want to have that drink?
Or maybe you shouldn't getbehind the wheel of the car.
It just, it sometimes it justneeds to be said, regardless of the
decision that they end up making.
Jessica (28:16):
Oh yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
For me, one of the things that made mea mandated reporter was being a teacher.
And, you know, part of being amandated reporter is understanding
when someone is in imminent peril.
And for me, that's kind ofan imminent peril issue.
Although, you know, it's not like Igo around and say, you know, are you
(28:38):
sure you want to have that drink?
I definitely don't do that.
But if someone looks at me and theysay, Have I had too much to drink?
(laugh)
You know, and it's obvious that they haveand that they're falling off the chair.
Yeah.
Then I'm going to say something, but yeah.
Well, and to that point, so my parentthat is in recovery now had a relapse and
(29:02):
it was Christmas and what that meant forthe family, for me and for my sister, is
that we could not be in that house, andwe would not expose our children to that.
I had gotten sober at that point.
My sister recognizes what growingup around that did to her.
(29:22):
And so she and I agreed together that wewere essentially calling off Christmas,
at least in the form that we had thoughtwe were going to be having Christmas.
And it was really traumatic for everyone.
But we said, these are our children.
It is our job to protect them.
And we will not have this bea part of their lives, let
(29:43):
alone, you know, Christmas.
And so it was awful.
It was the worst Christmas ever.
But I'm really proud of us for doing it.
I'm really proud of us that, youknow, these two kids who were not
empowered as kids, you know, kids,whatever, these two humans who were
not empowered as kids to point at theelephant, you know, we did as adults.
And that was this person's last drink.
(30:06):
So, in that case, wedid change the future.
We were the ones who said this is justwon't be tolerated and these are your
grandchildren and if you want to bearound your grandchildren, because
there were lots of other times whereI didn't do that and I wish I had.
And, you know, you hardly ever get tobe, I talked about this a lot, substance
use prevention and getting someoneto the point where they know they
(30:28):
need help is like a 100 piece puzzle.
And for me, my father wasthe 100th piece in my puzzle.
Right place, right time,right words, right person.
And he said, I know what analcoholic looks like and you're
an alcoholic and you need help.
And this was someone who hatesconflict, hates upsetting me,
(30:49):
hates saying the hard thing.
And he put all of thataside for me that day.
Because he knew I was in real trouble.
And I have so much respectfor him for doing that.
And so on that day, he was my 100th piece.
However, pieces 1 through 99 had to be inplace before my dad could be piece 100.
(31:10):
So on the day that we said somethingto my parent about the Christmas
thing, that was the 100th piece, butthere were 1 through 99 in place that
had been put there through lots ofother ways and reasons and people.
And so don't get your hopes up thatyou're going to get to be piece 100
because that hardly ever happens.
But 1 through 99 has to be thereand substance use prevention
(31:34):
are lots of those pieces.
So my hope, you know, you quoted thepart of the book where I say that I can't
guarantee that my kids will never go downthe road of having substance use disorder.
Genetically, they're predisposed,and I've done my best to use
best practices according tothe evidence that's out there.
But if they do, then they're startingat piece 32 or 47 or 71, whatever it
(31:57):
is, because they've gotten so much ofthe prevention stuff from me and so much
very plain talk around what they're.
Genetically what they're up against.
So I want that to be part oftheir thinking when they decide
whether or not to try that drug,to smoke that joint, to, you know,
whatever it is, to have that drink.
I need for them to have as much evidenceon the con side of that plate, whether
(32:23):
that's, you know, that their brainsaren't done developing, that they have
a history, that, you know, they'regoing to need their short term memory
in order to memorize all that stuffthey've got for that test next Friday.
I need all of that to be on thecon side and that's all substance
use prevention and the stuff thatgets people to recovery faster.
So it does dual duty and soI'm I'm all in either way.
Mike (32:45):
That's great.
You know, there's a book in there.
Jessica (32:48):
(laugh) I wrote i!
Mike (32:52):
You can call it the puzzle, the next one.
Well, and speaking of which, andby the way, for the listener, I
asked Jess if I could ask her thisahead of time because there's a
superstition that happens with authors.
But you're writing,you're writing a new book.
Jessica (33:05):
Well, so I'm, the way I like to talk about it is I'm
very much researching a new book.
So the research, so the way nonfictionwriting works is the way nonfiction
publishing works is you have to do a heckof a lot of research to write a proposal.
And in my case, because they includea sample chapter, and they include
chapter summaries, and they includeall this other stuff, they're
(33:27):
usually around 80 pages long.
For the Addiction Inoculation, Idid a full year of research before I
even attempted to write the proposal.
I have to get to a certain level ofexpertise before I can even talk about it.
And then there was a wholenother two years of research
before I could finish the book.
So I'm researching and almost done withthe proposal for a book that I'm, you
(33:48):
know, I'm really excited about that.
My editor knows aboutmy agent knows about.
So Gift of Failure came out 10 yearsago and the kids in that book who
were, you know, middle school, highschool aged are now emerging adults.
And my kids are emerging adults.
And so I'm writing aboutemerging adulthood and parenting.
You know, parents have a bigger role, Ithink, in their emerging adults life than
(34:12):
we've really ever seen before societally.
So that's what my next book is about.
It's about parenting emergingadults and helping them through
some of the stuff that they have todeal with in you know, these days.
Mike (34:24):
I think that's terrific and well needed.
I can't wait.
And then you get to the [inaudible].
Jessica (34:29):
Well, and the nice thing also about doing all this
research is it's for me too.
I mean, you know, I wrote TheGift of Failure because I had
two teenagers and I wanted tounderstand how over parenting affects
motivation, engagement, and learning.
And I did that and I learned a ton.
So if I had never written thatbook, I still learned a ton.
I wanted to know what best practiceswere for educators and for parents
(34:53):
around substance use prevention.
So if I had never written theaddiction inoculation, if I'd
never sold that book, that's okay.
It's still all for me.
So I'm looking at my resource libraryfor the next book and there's,
you know, I'm looking at shelvesand shelves and shelves of books.
So the nice thing for me is I havenothing to lose in this process.
I'm learning no matter what.
(35:14):
And, you know, I canwrite articles about it.
I can talk about it when I'm out speaking.
So, for me, the book is the frosting, andI love writing, and I love the process
of writing, and I love talking about theprocess of writing, but it's, for me,
it's never really been about the books.
It's about learning how to be the bestpossible parent I can be according to the
(35:36):
research that's out there and saying, I'msorry, and explaining why I'm changing
what I'm doing, whether it's, you know,my parenting around alcohol, which we did
change between my oldest and my youngest.
And there are lots of topics.
I mean, if you were to look at mybookshelves, I'm in a room that's
pretty much all bookshelves.
It's my office.
And there are lots of topics.
There's two entire bookshelves of books ona topic that I was going to write about.
(36:00):
And I learned as much as Iwanted to learn about it.
And I just decided that Ididn't want to write that book.
So that's cool.
I learned all the stuff I wanted.
If you had asked me a couple of years agowhat I was going to write about, I would
have said teaching kids about ethics.
And I'm looking at thosebookshelves right now.
And I'm really glad I read them all.
And that's just not the book Iwanted to write at that time.
Mike (36:20):
That's great.
Well, anything you write, I'm reallyexcited about because it's terrific.
Jessica (36:26):
Thank you.
Mike (36:27):
And leads me to ask you to have another conversation.
Jess, thanks so much for being withus today and for being kind enough
to write the article about Mary.
I thought it was terrific because we getcriticized on both sides that you, you
hear the, you hear buck up deal with it.
And then you hear, Oh, you all,you all are a bunch of snowflakes.
Jessica (36:49):
Right and the one person, you know, interestingly, the one
person I was really concerned aboutwith this piece the people were
her family, her mom and her sister.
And so before I hit publish on thispiece, I called her sister and I
said, because her sister's picture wasgoing to be in my social media feed.
And I just didn't want to upset her.
And so, and we talk aboutthis all the time, by the way.
But I texted her and I said,just so you know Mary Moore's
(37:12):
picture is going to be in my feed.
Just in case you know, I justdon't want you to see that
and not be prepared for it.
She's who I care about most when itcomes to talking about her sister.
And so if she were to say somethingto me, you know, I didn't show her the
piece ahead of time, but she trusted me.
But if there was something that really,really upset her in the article, we would
have talked about that too, because that'spart of talking about the elephants.
Mike (37:36):
Yeah.
And it helps her as well.
Jessica (37:37):
Uh huh.
Mike (37:40):
For those of you who listen, you know that there's links to not only
the article, but all of Jess's work,podcasts, attached to the podcast.
And there's also a link to theprevious podcast on our podcast.
Jessica (37:53):
Oh good.
(laugh)
Mike (37:54):
If that's not too much, we hope any of you can listen in anytime you're able.
And anytime you're able,we'd love to hear from you.
Until next time, stay safe.
And if you love somebody, havea conversation, even if you
don't have the right words.
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