August 22, 2024 • 42 mins
Sean Brace and Evan Davis sit down with Bryan Bennett, an industry expert in sports gambling. With years of experience as the former COO of Betfred US, Bryan now serves as a consultant and independent strategic advisor.
Key Topics discussed:
Key Topics discussed:
- Bringing a legacy brand to the US
- World of micro betting
- current projects in the space
- Advice for Marketing and Business Strategies (Fail Fast)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You are listening to Behind the Vague, a podcast mini
series that takes you beyond the bets and strategies and
more into the business of the sports betting industry. Now
Here are your hosts, Sean Brace and Evan.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Davis, Episode seven, Behind the Vague, Ladies and Gentlemen. Sean Brace,
Evan Davis, you heard the man. We are here another
great guest on tap for this episode. Here Evan Excited
to talk to Brian Bennett. Now, Brian has a number
of things going on and is a fantastic follow on
(00:36):
all things socials, including LinkedIn itself, but right now currently
he is a consultant and independent strategic advisor in the
sports gamling space. Also formerly the COO of betfred US.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, Brian's out there, so well known in the industry,
has a really fascinating background, is working with a lot
of really interesting, exciting companies now and obviously had a
really fascinating experience, you know, getting that Treads brand launched
around the United States.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
So excited to chat with him and hear about everything
he's done.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, we're gonna be talking a lot about micro betting,
of course, the sweepsakes, what's new, what's coming down our
pipe a little. What's the future look like in the
sports gambling space? So a ton coming your way right
here on this edition of Behind the Veg. Great to
have you on Behind the Veg. How's everything going in
your world?
Speaker 5 (01:32):
Yeah, Shawn, I'm good. Thanks for having me on. Looking
forward to chatting a bit about the crazy industry. We all,
we all do some business amen to that.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
It's constantly changing every single day, and of course with
football season here, I feel like now a lot of
people are hitting that gas pedal more and more will
dive deep into some of the things that you have
going on, and of course get caught up with the
past and some of the things that we can learn
together here. But as always Brian, we don't like to
really intrude too much in our guests and hey, you know,
(02:00):
how old are you and where are you from? No, what,
we like to go and stay into the sports world.
And I'm curious. One open ended question to get this
party started here in the Behind the Vegue, simply put,
is give us your favorite childhood sports memory.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
Favorite man. You know, I probably got to go too,
because they're maybe a little bit different, but I think
the most the one that stands out probably the most
is the first time I walked into a Major League
ballpark with my dad. Probably get that answer maybe every
now and then, but I remember, you know, I was
probably nine, this is old, lived in a Dalfa Worth area,
walked in the old Arlington Stadium, which was just an
(02:38):
absolute dump of a baseball stadium, you know, one of
those cookie cutter nineteen seventies sort of utility ballparks. But
the first time you walk into the tunnel and you
see the green grass, yeah, yeah, just amazing. I think
my dad is my first, my dad's first who he
grew up in like rural Texas, so it was his
first game as well, so I think we were both
kind of like, wow, that looks much different it does
(03:00):
on TV, so that was kind of cool. And then
fast forwarding a little more, probably the first Texas OU
game I went to later and like probably in high school.
I ended up going to Texas for college later, but
that kind of sealed it for me. A friend of
mine invited me and to go with his family to
the Cotton Bowl for during a Texas State fair and
go to Texas OU, and that was just an absolutely
(03:23):
incredible experience. Barry Switzer was coaching OU at the time.
They beat Texas by forty, which they did often for
that like a period of time. But I just remember
just a if you've never been to a Red River shootout,
like the Orange and the Red, you know, split perfectly
down the middle. It's a incredible experience.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Great sec traditions. There were both of those school that's
right right now, that's fantastic. First of all, back to
back guests from the state of Texas. I have to
follow up, Brian, did you play Did you play high
school football growing up?
Speaker 6 (03:56):
I did? I did.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
I probably shouldn't have. I'm not a you can't tell
on the camera, but.
Speaker 6 (04:00):
I'm not a large man. But yeah, I mean, growing.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Up in Texas, that's just what you do. So uh,
you know, actually, my favorite sport now is probably soccer.
Probably watch more soccer than anything else. I love soccer then,
but in Texas in the eighties, soccer was the you know,
sissy sport. And growing up in more of a rural
Texas so you, yeah, everybody played high school football and
you just kind of had to do.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
You have a team that you cheer for more than
more than any other.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
H I mean, try talking about like soccer, soccer, soccer. Sorry, yeah, man,
I am glutton for punishment. I'm I'm an Everton fan
mainly because you know, when I always watched a lot
of English soccer. But you know, back in the day
you could only get you might get one game on Saturday,
one game on Sunday. You just couldn't get a lot.
And Tim Howard was playing it. Everton had just gotten
(04:49):
to Everton. Landon Donovan was there on loan and as
a result, they just showed Everton matches. So started watching them.
Kind of like the club, it was kind of always
fighting for elevancy, like in the top top half of
the table. Then did a lot more research on the club.
It's kind of the people's club, working man's club. I
grew up in a working class household. Just sort of
it felt like it. It made more sense than suddenly
(05:12):
be oh, I'm a Manchester United fan.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I knew it was coming. That's my team, that's my squad.
And I pushed back only because I was never a
fan of that team that went out there and spent
the money and had the endless checks, Like yeah, you
know I was. I always grew up wondering what it
would be like if I was with my friends and
I was a Yankee fan or a Dallas Cowboy or
a Laker fan. I just wish I knew what that
was like. And then I was late to the soccer
(05:37):
game and I'm like, Manchester, let's go.
Speaker 5 (05:41):
Trust me my son and my son. I have a
fifteen year old son who plays pretty high level club
soccer here in San Diego. But he like, he's like, dude,
why didn't you choose someone better? Because now he's an
Everton fan and he hates and he hates it because
he had been because he grew up with like Everton
jerseys since he was like six months old, and he's like,
why didn't you choose someone better? Like this sucks? This
(06:03):
is not fun to read for these guys.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
That though, No, you're right about that.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
I'm a big fan of Tim Howard and his Tim
Howard shares the Sean Braves, Evan Davis bald head, metal,
scruffy beard.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
Look, yeah, I dressed.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Up him as him for Halloween one year. How about that?
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Yeah, you guys could have been dueling Tim Howard.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
There it is.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I'd have to hit the gym for about six months
to dress up.
Speaker 6 (06:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Man, Well, Brian, we're lucky to have you this this morning.
A lot to get to so let's dive right into it.
And like I said, your your LinkedIn is very revealing
and you put out there. Hey, look, I've been a
part of some some opportunities that have completely blown up
in my face. And I've been a part of some
unbelievable places that have had some great results and still
(06:50):
growing to this day. So in the sports gambling space,
a little generic question to get us started here, you know,
because you tackle it all from the analytics to the
marketing to you know, to use your acquisition. What interests
you the most at this point in time as someone
was to come to you with the business idea, what
sort of gets your your intendants going up the most?
Right now?
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Yeah, right now? You know I think I love, like,
you know, micro betting and sort of the alternative sports
piece of the business. If someone came to me today,
I mean obviously, if someone came into me today so
they wanted to be an operator, I would tell them
to go do something else. Because unless you have a
war chest of half a billion or a billion dollars
in capital, you're you're gonna have a really hard time
(07:33):
challenging anybody in the operator space, even if you were
trying to go like you know, in a state by
state or something like that. So for me, I look
a lot of B to B stuff and I really love,
like I'm on the I'm a board observer for all
sports Data. I really love what they're doing as a
way of kind of bringing in sort of non traditional sports,
(07:55):
using that as sort of a gateway to get get
people who maybe you know, wouldn't have looked into sports
betting and to begin with, but now that you can
bet on you know, World Surf League or something like that,
you can actually you'll get them in the door to
kind of maybe figure out what the sports betting things
all about. And they have a great, great way to
kind of get those people in and then hopefully get
them betting on NFL and things like that. So I
(08:15):
really love that sort of B to B aspect of it.
And then the micro betting side I find really interesting.
I'm not working on any micro betting things at the moment,
but I love the guys. I mean, obviously simple bet
a lot of people know, but the team at Kiro
Sports I think is doing some really cool stuff where
you're you know, kind of taking micro betting to soccer,
and they've done some really interesting things internationally where you
(08:38):
can basically bet on things like will there be a
throw in in the next two minutes? Right, So they're
almost kind of adding that like kind of a slot
machine mechanic to sports betting, because I mean, who can
be a sharp better when you're betting next throw in
the next two minutes, right? That's it's it's very much
a sort of second screen experience while you're watching the game,
(08:58):
throw a little action on on markets like that. So
those are things that really kind of get me excited
about sort of the future of sports betting.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
I love the micro betting concept. Like I was at
a Phillies game last last year, I guess, with just
a few buddies, and you know, it was really interesting
to see, Like it's one thing if you bet twenty
bucks or how much on you know, the game outcome itself.
But we were sitting there making you know, fifty cent
wagers or dollar wagers on like the speed of the
(09:28):
next pitch, right, and all that kind of stuff, and
it is really it's so engaging, even though any one bet.
You're not winning or losing anything of any consequence, but
it just gives you that second screen or in this case,
you know your your screen that sort of caught you know,
helps out with your live experience as well. So I
couldn't agree with Moore. I think it's a huge area
(09:50):
for growth.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
It's a great companion to watching sports, so you don't
feel like you have to be really invested in it.
If you miss a couple of micro bets, no big deal.
But it's something you can do kind of on your own,
on your own volition. And it's funny because we talked
earlier right off the bat about Arlington Stadium and Texas
baseball games, Rangers baseball. I used to go with my
buddies even in high school, and we would bet on
(10:12):
or off right like a dollar each on the end
of the half inning, guy throes to baseball on the mound?
Does it stay on the mound? Does it roll onto
the grass? And we would literally take turns betting on
off dollar a pop. And that's like the one of
the first probably instances for me of micro betting, and
it just made you know, the break between endings a
little more interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Brian, what would you say, because this is probably a
very you know, generic question here and if somebody that
was listening and asked you the question and I put
my hand in the air as well. What is the
difference between micro betting and live wagering? Are they similar?
Similar in your mind? Is there a distinct difference that
you go to more so, what would you say to
(10:55):
that question?
Speaker 5 (10:56):
I mean, yeah, if you who knows, you probably asked
ten people get ten different answers. But for me, micro
betting is just a kind of a subset of live betting,
because obviously live betting for me is betting game outcomes
as well. Right, you can bet Rangers, Phillies and the
fourth inning on game winner, things like that. You know
before obviously ten fifteen years ago, you go to Vegas
(11:19):
and you bet pre match, pre game, and then you
wait two and a half three hours before.
Speaker 6 (11:24):
You know and if you win.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
Now with with with live betting, obviously you can make
bets throughout the entire wager, almost up until the end
of the game. Micro betting is just a microcosm of that.
Takes it really down to like the minutia of sports
where you almost don't mean you really don't care who's
winning who the battery. I mean, you're you're literally just
betting like the super super small increments in sports, and
(11:48):
it really does, I think you ask a lot of
people in the industry, it really does add a slot
machine more style, very casual style of betting just for
an engagement play to get you know, kind of increase
that handle.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
So Brian tells how you got into the world of
sports betting in.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
In the first place. Can I say back asswords on
the on the show. I mean just completely completely fell
into it. I mean, it depends on what you want
to go back. I I even got into real money
gaming almost by accident. I was working in the Bay Area,
worked over a variety of like mobile and casual gaming
(12:28):
companies like you know, mobile games, Facebook games like that
kind of stuff, and uh, you know, kind of had
some successes and some failures. Through that found my way
with some some friends we started a company called Rocket Play,
which was a social casino, so free to play slots,
just because that was all the rage those days. Led
slot of mania was you could see it growing by
(12:49):
leaps and bounds. So we kind of built a slot
engine in a game and off we went. You know,
fast forward like three years later from that company and
we got acquired by slot machine developer out of ag
at a Vegas called AGS. It was really small at
the time but was starting to grow. Was owned by
Apollo Gaming Capital out of New York, so private equity.
They're investing in the business, trying to pump it up.
(13:10):
So we got acquired by AGS and that kind of
put me into real money gaming. They bought us to
be their interactive division, and then I became head of
interactive at AGS. And then when PASSPA was repealed in
twenty eighteen, as the interactive guy, they just said, hey,
go go look into sports betting and see what we
should be doing in sports betting, and it turns out nothing.
AGS decided not to do anything, but I met and
(13:33):
I started going to sports betting conferences and meeting people
and ended up meeting my who would become my boss
at Betfread met him a conference. I don't know if
you guys, Evan, if you were at ICE Boston.
Speaker 6 (13:43):
I think he only did one.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
It was a terrible conference. But I ended up meeting
Mark Stebbings, who was chief operating officer of all of
Betfread met him at the conference. Six months later, when
I left AGS, he called me and said, hey, we're
going to We're entering the US. You know, do you
want to would you want to run the US for US?
And I had to. I reminded him. I was like, hey,
just make sure you remember who I am. You didn't
(14:06):
call the wrong guy. Like, I've never worked in sports
betting before, never worked in a retail.
Speaker 6 (14:10):
Book, never done any of that. And he was like yeah.
He was like, yo, you can learn that.
Speaker 5 (14:15):
We want your digital experience because it's going to be
a digital you know, digital is going to drive the market.
So we'd rather have a digital guy and you can
bring in a retail guy or you can learn that piece.
So I jumped to That's why I wanted my next
job to be in betting, in sports betting. So yeah,
I jumped at it. Didn't interview anywhere else. I just
when you offered the job, I took it, and off
(14:35):
I was off and running. I was like October twenty
nineteen and then yeh hit the ground running from there,
built an office in Vegas and.
Speaker 6 (14:42):
Yeah, there we are.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
So you were chief operating officer of betfred US for
several years and so take us through. I mean, obviously
there's a ton to unpack there. But Betfred, you know,
is not some fly by night brand, right, I mean,
this is a huge operation out of the UK. And
I think what oftentimes people here don't appreciate is that
(15:08):
if you go back, well, certainly, I mean you go
back you know, decades and decades, right, but even if
you just look back to the day before past, but
got repealed at what the market looked like in places
like the United Kingdom, there's some incredibly successful, you know,
prolific brands there that people here at the time.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Had never even heard of. Yeah, I mean, yeah, so
Betfred bet first. I'll bet my time at Betfriend was awesome.
They're actually a lot of people always want to know
is there a Fred, And the answer is yes. Fred
Doane is still the chairman of the company. He's got
a phenomenal story.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
We could probably do an hour on.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
Just just pread just an amazing dude and make good company.
And yeah, and their their household name in the UK,
especially in north northern England. They're based in the Manchester
in between a little town between Mensester and Libool, but
they cover all the British you know, the British or
the English Rugby League is the Betfred Rugby League. They
(16:07):
cover English Master, British Masters, darts, billiards, soccer. They're the
official betting partner of Manchester United, all sorts of So it
is a household name, there's a shop on every corner.
But yeah, coming and bringing that brand, a legacy brand,
into the US, yeah it was. It was certainly a
challenge and you know, I can talk about a lot
of the reasons why, but I think when we when
(16:30):
they decided to enter the US, I think everyone thought
at the time, which was wrong, that the US would
look like the UK market. The UK market is highly fragmented.
There's probably one hundred different operators that all have some
sort of decent market share revenue, and it's led by
bet three six five is the leader in the UK
(16:50):
at about whatever twenty percent market share. So I think
everyone thought that the US would look very similar to that,
where you have, you know, maybe one or two big
big heads and then you have a really long tail
of people with single digit market share and then even
longer tail of like the smaller guys.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
So that's the.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Reason Betfred came in and we came in and we
wanted to be.
Speaker 6 (17:10):
Active everywhere I wanted.
Speaker 5 (17:11):
We went after market's hard at that time. There's a
bit of a land grab. There's everyone going there probably
overpaid for market access. Were definitely overpaid for market access,
but we all we want everyone thought you had to
be first market, you had to be part of that
first wave where you just get left behind, And that
was kind of the strategy bet Fred took early on retrospect.
(17:32):
There's a lot a lot of things that didn't turn
out the way we had expected, and we could dive
into some of that. But that was sort of the
reason I was excited about joining is because it was
a big brand and knew what they were doing. You
know they do I don't know, eight hundred million in
revenue and you know, worldwide outside of the US. So yeah,
it wasn't some fly by night startup that was kind
(17:53):
of jumping into things for the first time.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Obviously, I want to follow up right there and say, yeah,
I would love to hear a little bit more on
why in your mind it wasn't so successful and to
the point that you know, look like you brought up
with you know, some of the guys that are just
have so much money in the war chest, like DraftKings
and FanDuel MG and whatever it is, and it just
seems like if you're not a part of that, you
don't have the money to spend. Good luck. Is there
(18:18):
more to that in your mind?
Speaker 5 (18:22):
I mean, that's it probably boils it down to the
basics it. You know, I think everyone knew that DraftKings
and FanDuel would have a head start. You just obvious
they They've been building a brand for ten years.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
You know.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
I remember back in two thousand and whatever, eight or something,
you couldn't turn on a radio. I was living in
San Francisco at the time. You couldn't turn on sports
radio without hearing I mean, it was a joke almost
that you would hear you know twenty you know, daily
fanity either FANDUL, DraftKings. I forget who else that someone
Draft Kings bought, Like Draft there were so many drafts
at the time, but they're they're all over radio.
Speaker 6 (18:57):
So they really built you know, they did a really good.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Job of building brand and building their database. I think
everyone thought they would have a little bit of a
head start. But you know, fast forward today and markets
like you know, Maryland or Virginia. They have eighty percent
market share between the two of them. I don't think
I think that who knows, maybe that even surprises them,
but they certainly surprised the rest of us. Coming into
the market. We thought, you know, yeah they would lead,
(19:21):
but they wouldn't be that far ahead.
Speaker 6 (19:23):
And I think it really does come down to I.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
Mean, they have great products as well. I don't mean
to dispare as their products, but the brand.
Speaker 6 (19:30):
Uh yeah, I think we.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Underestimated just how powerful those two brands were going to be.
And then I think also how powerful their willingness or
their threshold for pain would be, like short term pain.
And that's how conversation I used to have with my
with the board in England all the time is when
they'd say we need to go faster, my response would
(19:52):
always be able to hit your threshold for pain because
it's going to have to be really, really high. And
I know the don family is very, very wealthy, but
we're talking like, you know, the threshold pain's going to
be like four to five hundred million high, and you
know at some point that you know it's that the
numbers can be that can sometimes become too big.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
You talked about the database also, which I think is
sometimes I don't want to say overlooked, because it's not
like we're the only ones saying that, but perhaps underappreciated
draftings and Fandel had you know, rosters of specific individual
customers who were just prime aligned for being sports betting customers,
(20:34):
right because as we all know, I mean sports better
most sports betters, not all, but most are you know,
sports fans, right, but many sports fans are not necessarily
sports betters. And it's figuring out that delineation and the
folks who were doing daily fantasy sports in twenty seventeen,
(20:56):
where the people buy.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
And large who were betting real money on sports.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Betting twenty eighteen, right, And so yeah, it was the
crossover that get you know, sports media companies or just
other gaming operations didn't.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
Have yeah, one hundred percent, because at that point they
already you know, you had license to do business with
them for lack of a better word, They've already they'd
already trusted you with their credit card, they already paid
you specifically for the purpose of making some kind of
a wager on a sporting outcome, uh, whether it be
DFS or whatever. So that yeah, just making moving those
(21:31):
people in the sports meting was pretty seamless. You know,
you compare that to.
Speaker 6 (21:35):
A company like Fanatics, who, whatever.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
Reason has I would I mean maybe their internal metrics
are different, but that had I think for the market
side has significantly underperformed where everyone thought they were going
to be or wherever they kind of told everyone they
would be. And I think the big reason for that is, Yeah,
they have a big database as well, they have a
big brand, but I'm not sure everyone knows the Fanatics
brand as much as you know the Philly store powered
(21:58):
by Fanatics, right, Finax has always of the sub brand.
But you know, they touted their database of people who've
already given their credit cards to them, But when you
really kind of drill down to that database, that's probably
not the sports betting database. Because I know, the person
who buys the most Fanatic stuff in my house is
my wife. She buys gifts for me.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
My son, her brothers.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
I mean, she's anything we buy on fin x is
probably on her account, and that's you know, she's never
made a sports wager in her life, so it's a
I think Fanatics probably overplayed the size of their database
and the impact that would have on their sports betting business.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
So so take us to what you're doing now. You're
you're working with companies sort of across the space. What
I mean, you can call them out by name if
you want, but what types of companies and what are
they doing and what do you think we're going to
see as you know, for consumers in this space. So
we're going to hear about these companies. Are they going
to all be doing cool stuff behind the scenes and
(22:54):
we're just going to see it on the front end
when we log onto an operator one day?
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean there's the there's a couple of things.
Speaker 6 (23:02):
A couple of things I'm working on.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
A lot of the ones I work with are B
two B so they won't necessarily be sort of front
and center from a brand perspective with consumers, but they're
looking to power some really cool stuff on the back
end that consumers will obviously consume. I think All Sports
Data is one of those we talked about that.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
I think they're they're getting more and.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
More books that are bringing in that content. That content
is great filler content, especially in the summer. Now that
we get into football season, all all attention on college
and football and NFL, but during the summer with you
World Serve League and skateboarding and all drag racing and
all sorts of stuff. You know, books are looking to
fill content, So that's that's a great one. I have
another company I'm working with called Wager Games that is
(23:45):
adding looking to add like a social element to the
front end of sports books. So you know, like we're
doing now. You know, sports is inherently a social activity,
but sports betting, for the most part, when you're doing
it is not right. You're you're looking at a wall
of you know, you're looking at bay. Especially a very
casual fan opens a sport, an online sports for the
first time, it's a little confusing to wall of numbers.
(24:06):
It's not particularly engaging. Wager Games is looking to add
a social element to that. So basically a tab where
you can actually consume content from you know, whether it
be sports betting, influencers or personalities or things like that,
and you can easily tail their bets with a one
tap click.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
And then in a few.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Companies they've rolled out in for tests, they've they've actually
a really nice increase in margin. So you have a
lot of people basically tailing same game parlay as things
like that. So I really love what.
Speaker 6 (24:38):
They're doing and they're slated to have a.
Speaker 5 (24:40):
Pretty good football season as well. But then it kind
of outside of that, I'm working with, you know, everyone's
dirty little secret sweep steaks. I have a lot of
different swepstakes clients, which we again, we could probably do
a whole episode on what sweep stakes sweepstakes gaming is,
but it's definitely growing here in the US at least
maybe a three to five window, three to five your
window for that. And yeah, and then at hand a
(25:03):
couple of different sports media companies, uh that are that
are doing some really interesting stuff and trying to just
get more involved in sports betting affiliates things like that.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
The well sports, the all sports data is awesome because
that's right in my wheelhouse, Brian, I'm a big motocross
guy and anything as far as motorcycles are concerned. And
it's interesting again, uh, probably a generic question as you
get one hundred times, but those events, those sports aren't
available on the other books out there, like DraftKings and
FanDuel and so on and so forth.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
Uh, well, all sports data is the feed so so
brand Panduel, DraftKings, and you know, those kinds of companies
are the customers of all sports data. So yeah, so
you you know they're you know, what they're really working
right now is getting getting those sports out there more,
getting more books to cover those markets and to take
those markets. Uh. But they you know, they had a
really nice increase in their business this year specifically because
(25:58):
you know, people, you know, during that kind of dead
zone of summer where there's got a whole lot to
bet on, you know, being able to lay some wagers
on some different sports is really interesting for people.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
X games and then who knows what might have sparked
some interest from the Olympics. You never know. I mean
that one guy with the gun that was a great meme.
You know, it was everywhere.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Yeah, yeah, maybe they should going out getting the target shooting.
I'm very sure what that sports called. I'm sure there's
a governing body somewhere along the way. Uh.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Brian, let me ask you this question here from your
LinkedIn and I think it's a great one line again
wide open. You say you've been a part of wildly
successful startups as well as spectacular flameouts. Not interested in
names or anything along those lines, but one lesson that
you've learned that you have taken from one of those flameouts.
I think we learn more when when things don't go
(26:46):
right and you know, the expectations aren't met. And I
don't know if that's the case here, but one lesson
that you might want to put out there for our
listening audience.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Oh man, that's a tough question, you know. I think
that so I have been I've been a part of
a three or four different startups that all went to.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Put all within the sports gambling space.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
No, no, it was all pre uh you know, pre
before I even got in. It was more the traditional
gaming and consumer internet space. But I think the lessons
I think you can still learn. For me, it was
just perseverance for without sounding too cheesy, because you know,
I think a lot of people I have some friends
who have had you know, flameouts and startups and then
(27:31):
they just said that's not for me, and they went
back to Fortune five hundred, big company.
Speaker 6 (27:36):
For me, that was just never.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
I never enjoyed working for large.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
Entities, you know.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
I think it was one of the companies I worked for.
I think I I think it when I decided to
go into startups, I was working for AOL and when
I started to go into startups, I was literally working
on a PowerPoint presentation and I saved it and I
looked at the save and it was like version twenty four.
So it had on like for me to my bosses
up to their bosses back down to me and make
(28:04):
this change, make that change. And by the time I
finished the final it was literally like version twenty four.
And I'm like, I literally spent hours and then just tweaking.
I mean, I was like, this is bullshit. I'm out
of here. I can't do this anymore. So then I
took a job at my first startup, and I absolutely
loved it. It was like, you know, twelve people, we
were doing like DVD trading that we're trying to compete
(28:27):
with Netflix, but with actual like DVDs you own, so
you can trade DVDs be in the mail of your
own DVD collections, and uh it's just I mean, obviously
it's terrible.
Speaker 6 (28:36):
Idea, but you know, I learned a ton got into.
Speaker 5 (28:39):
The startup world metal, you know, just at BC communities
and at other startups, and then I when I left
that one, I went to the next one. So I
think just to dusting yourself off and moving on and
you know, and and trying again. I think was sort
of the probably the biggest lesson I learned. I think
second from an executive perspective is fail fast, Like don't
don't drag, don't drag it on and like if you're
(29:01):
if you know, go bit, you know, make your take
your best shot. But the writing's on the wall, you know,
pittot pitt and move on to something else, or you know,
get the capitol back and move and and go do
something else. I mean, just there are too many startups
that sort of I think you know that just I
think people call them zombies where they have enough money
(29:21):
to kind of keep going, but everyone kind of knows
that ain't gonna be successful long term. So for me,
it's it's failed fast. You'll know what you don't know
and either you know, pittot into something else or go
do something else. So what do you think the what
do you.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Think the sports betting space looks like in I don't know,
let's call it seven or eight years. We're about seven
years in, so let's call them another seven years from now.
Is it just we've got this small number of operators
that are you know, kind of doing doing all of
the market share in the space, is it Is it
(29:57):
going to look different, the rules going to change, or
we're gonna have these sweepstakes platforms out there? I mean
where where do you what do you think everything looks
like here in let's call it, you know, twenty thirty one?
Speaker 5 (30:08):
Yeah, I think yeah, I think if if it's just
sports betting, like the sports betting only no I gaming,
like if those same states are still just sports betting only,
I think the market, the competitors in the market are
probably half of what they are now. I know, enough
over you know, we're leaving Bedford for four years to
(30:29):
do to do sports betting on good to launch in
sports betting only markets as a challenger brand. It's incredibly
difficult and it's hard anyway. I mean, even FanDuel and
Drafting would probably tell you sports betting only markets are
really hard to make money because margins are so low.
I mean, they've done a really good job obviously with
the same game parlays. But you know, as they make
(30:51):
more money, do you have places like Illinois and other
states start, you know, raising taxes because if you're making
more money, then you want to make more money. It's
it's it's it's just a really tough business. The highly
fragmented nature of the US market makes it inherently tough
for small companies because like a bedfread, you know, we
had we were in ten different states when I left,
(31:13):
and we had we had, you know, just because of
regulations and the Wire Act, you had to have servers
in all ten of those places. So we probably we
had enough, we had few enough customers. We could have
served all of our customers with one tech stack in
the cloud, no problem. But because of the regulatory framework
in the US, we had to have million dollars and
maybe just under a million dollars, but eight hundred and
(31:34):
fifty nine hundred thousand dollars tech stacks in every state
we were doing business in. So man, it's a ten
million dollars in capital outlay that shouldn't have been required.
Like that kind of stuff. And then the differences in
states and the regulatory frameworks and the painful licensing process
and the ongoing compliance. It's just really hard for a
small company to do business in multiple states. So by that,
(31:56):
just for that alone, just for sports betting only, I
think it's I mean, you're even seeing it. Alex, Betfread has
left since I've left, They've left three or four markets.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
You have.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
Typico is eight eight eighths left, bet Ways left. You
know a lot of those guys and those are all
I don't think people in the US realize. But just
like Betfread, Typico and Betway, those are massive companies in Europe.
You know, those are not just fly by night companies,
and they've all tapped out and said no, this isn't
for us. But I think a lot of that is
because it's you know, sports betting only is just really hard,
(32:27):
and without eye gaming the support and offset some of
those losses and to kind of grow the entire market,
I think it's gonna be really hard for tier twos
to ever compete. So seven years from now, you're probably
left with a handful of Tier ones and then maybe
one or two Tier twos and that's pretty much it.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
It's interesting you talk about margins. You know, it's such
a that's such a common knowledge, I would say, within
the industry, and yet often not super well perceived outside
of it.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
You know, I had somebody to tell me that years
and years ago.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
He worked, you know, in a larger Vegas property and
they're on their P and L.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
Sports betting was rolled up under.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Other because it was just kind of like so inconsequential,
and it takes up all this space physical space in
a casino, and yet the margins that you're doing are
just like not meaningless, but close to meaningless. And that's
I think what was so surprising for the industry was
that Fandel and DraftKings came out and said we're we're
(33:29):
this sports betting focused brands as opposed to these casino
gaming focus brands. Because and that's why I game there's
such a huge push toward legalizing ie gaming is because
online casino the margins there for operators are materially higher,
and so the idea is, can you get your customers
to go down that root too? And you know, Brian,
(33:52):
you touched on same game parlays. I mean, anyone who
loads up a sportsbook now, you know, can tell you
how hard same game parlays are being pushed. And it's
for no reason other than the margins are higher. And
when we talk about the margins being higher, we just
mean that the old raids higher, which means that for
the player they're they're less likely to win, right, they're
(34:13):
less likely to win the same retard or achieve the
same return. And so you know, those are the things
that are being done subtly or in some cases not
so subtly, behind the scenes. But it's really interesting to
sort of see and hear, you know, the industry conversation
around this, and then recognize how that appears to the
(34:35):
consumer because I use, well, you're in California, but I
use these apps right in Pennsylvania, and and see like, how,
oh my gosh, the same game parlay push over the
last two years has just been I mean almost comical.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
Well, yeah, because you look at so standard back in Vegas,
old school Vegas, you know, where you're basically betting full game.
Speaker 6 (34:57):
You know, you don't have a lot.
Speaker 5 (34:58):
Of props and things like that. Those they traded it
like a three percent margin, maybe four if they were
you know, had if it results went their way. So
I mean, that's just tiny, tiny, And I tell people
all the time, like there's a reason why when you
go to Vegas the floor is covered in slot machines
and not sports books, because I mean that's obviously that's
where the money is made. Sports books. Sports books are
(35:20):
are an amenity. They're to keep people from leading the
property to go do something else.
Speaker 6 (35:24):
You know, they can play.
Speaker 5 (35:26):
They play tables and slots where they can go over
and make a sports wager, watch a game, but get
them back to the tables and slots as soon as possible,
so you know, you can do sports betty. You can
have those big, beautiful sports books in Las Vegas because
they're subsidized by the gaming revenue on the casino floor.
Without that subsidization in places like you know, Illinois and Pennsylvania,
(35:48):
Slot Illinois and Colorado and all the other you know,
big states without eye gaming, it's just it's really really hard.
I mean, you have, you know, one of the best
books in Vegas, the super Book. They just tapped out
of all their regional markets because they're like not, you know,
because they their whole method of trading it low margin
(36:09):
and taking all bets and all that sort of stuff
just doesn't work regionally because you will get you will
get your clock cleaned. There's it's just too difficult to
to constantly play whack them all with all the sharps
without you know, slot revenue to offset those losses.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Brian great stuff. Look, we've We've gone thirty minutes here.
I want to get one more from you if you
if you want to mind, then I'm going to bring
this up because it's again a fantastic follow Brian Bennett
will put it out on all of our recaps here,
especially at Foxpho Gambler dot com. But you talk a
little bit about the social from the standpoint of marketing
(36:47):
and and when it comes to strategy. And I asked
this question on a previous episode and basically coming from
an affiliate angle, but taking it even more for the
average Joe's that are out there trying to make it
in this space, whether it's an influencer trying to create content.
Is there a social media path that you look through
(37:08):
the most. Is there an algorithm that you appreciate more
than others? It's just so saturated right now. And this
is coming from my angle where I'm live Monday through Friday.
So I'm just curious from a from a digital marketing
social strategy, is there one that you would look to
before others, you.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
Know, as a as a you know, as a content creator.
I think for me, I think the most important thing
in what you're delivering is deliver you know, stand behind
your You know, you see a lot of guys out
there right offering picks, but there's no sort of like
checking balance on hey did you actually make that wager?
So it's a you know, you never, I don't know
how much you can trust it. I love and you
(37:50):
know I'm gonna pitch these guys, so I'm an advisor
and Picket. I think Picket's an awesome social platform because
you can integrate or you you log into your use
your betting credentials to log into all your accounts, so
that if I'm following you on Picket and you're making picks,
I can actually go and see did you actually bet
on that? And what's your return? So if you're telling
(38:12):
me you're winning seventy percent, which you know pro tip
for all the listeners out there, nobody's winning seventy percent
of their bets.
Speaker 6 (38:19):
I mean, you're sure.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
You guys have talked about that one hundred times and
everyone tells you they are. You should run in the
other direction. But yeah, then you can actually go to
their website. You can see all the bets they made
on FANDUL, DraftKings, bet Fred whoever else, and you can
see what they're really what they're really tracking that. So
I think that's sort of like authenticity around influencers. I
(38:40):
think that's probably the best strategy for me. Just got
to be authentic, don't just don't don't be a tout,
you know, if you're going to get into social media
space and create content, there's really a fine line between
a social media influencer and a you know, someone who
delivers picks and a tut Just don't straight into the
taut territory because it's a slippery slope for there.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Or look if you if you, I promise you get
your money back if we don't win this game tonight,
all right, I'll give you my next pick three, okay.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Or let me give you one one correllary to that,
which is or do it in a way where we're
all just sitting here trying to have fun and and
we're joking about it and we're right, you know, and
we're we're doing stuff on you know, is it going
to be a first pitch fastball? And we don't know,
Like this isn't this isn't scientific. This is just a
(39:32):
bunch of guys the same thing that you're doing when
you're sitting in the outfield of the Phillies game with
your friends, but you're having like analogous conversations about that, right,
And we're doing this because it's fun to talk about
and joke about, and not because we've sat here and
crunched a gazillion numbers.
Speaker 5 (39:51):
And we're standing behind the pit. This is a rock
solid pick, right, So I.
Speaker 4 (39:56):
Totally agree with what you're saying, like, don't be a
how where you basically pretend like you're this expert and
then you can't back it up at all. But right,
But at the same time, we don't all need to
be experts to do this and have fun as long
as we're doing it responsibly. And I think that's the
key that sometimes you lose the forest through the trees.
(40:19):
It's like, let's talk picks because they're fun to talk about.
Let's talk about who's what's the long shot that you
think that we're going to bet on to win the
college football national title, not because we have some this
is some huge knowledge on this, because it's fun to
talk about what Boise State might be able to do
(40:40):
this year and you know what, I'm gonna throw five
bucks on them and whatever. So I feel really strongly
that we don't get so into this industry that we
forget like what it's supposed to be about. For a
lot of people, you.
Speaker 5 (40:56):
Shouldn't be You shouldn't be making bets to pay your rent,
should be making your best to have fun. And just
on that note on college football, if you're betting on
anyone other than Texas to win the national championship.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Well that's a perfect segue. Just so you know. Obviously
Evan is a Duke guy, and I'm just telling you
from the basketball perspective, twelve to one, get the Duke
Blue Devils to cut down the nets come April. All right,
all right, that's good EXAs National championship for football, Duke
Blue Devils for basketball, Brian, excellent stuff. I mean from
(41:29):
A to Z there, sir, we took a lot from
you and great gyms, as they say, dropped throughout the
course of this podcast. Can't thank you enough again? Got
the LinkedIn? What else can we find you at? Anything
else you'd like to plug before you get out of here, sir?
Speaker 5 (41:42):
You find me on Twitter. I talk about a lot
of different things. There may be a lot of politics
mixed in there as well, so follow it your own risk.
But I do talk a lot of sports betting business
type stuff as well, so Brian H. Bennet on Twitter excellent.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Brian, can't thank you enough for being a guest here.
I'm behind the veg continue success there
You are listening to Behind the Vague, a podcast mini
series that takes you beyond the bets and strategies and
more into the business of the sports betting industry. Now
Here are your hosts, Sean Brace and Evan.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Davis, Episode seven, Behind the Vague, Ladies and Gentlemen. Sean Brace,
Evan Davis, you heard the man. We are here another
great guest on tap for this episode. Here Evan Excited
to talk to Brian Bennett. Now, Brian has a number
of things going on and is a fantastic follow on
(00:36):
all things socials, including LinkedIn itself, but right now currently
he is a consultant and independent strategic advisor in the
sports gamling space. Also formerly the COO of betfred US.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, Brian's out there, so well known in the industry,
has a really fascinating background, is working with a lot
of really interesting, exciting companies now and obviously had a
really fascinating experience, you know, getting that Treads brand launched
around the United States.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
So excited to chat with him and hear about everything
he's done.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, we're gonna be talking a lot about micro betting,
of course, the sweepsakes, what's new, what's coming down our
pipe a little. What's the future look like in the
sports gambling space? So a ton coming your way right
here on this edition of Behind the Veg. Great to
have you on Behind the Veg. How's everything going in
your world?
Speaker 5 (01:32):
Yeah, Shawn, I'm good. Thanks for having me on. Looking
forward to chatting a bit about the crazy industry. We all,
we all do some business amen to that.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
It's constantly changing every single day, and of course with
football season here, I feel like now a lot of
people are hitting that gas pedal more and more will
dive deep into some of the things that you have
going on, and of course get caught up with the
past and some of the things that we can learn
together here. But as always Brian, we don't like to
really intrude too much in our guests and hey, you know,
(02:00):
how old are you and where are you from? No, what,
we like to go and stay into the sports world.
And I'm curious. One open ended question to get this
party started here in the Behind the Vegue, simply put,
is give us your favorite childhood sports memory.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
Favorite man. You know, I probably got to go too,
because they're maybe a little bit different, but I think
the most the one that stands out probably the most
is the first time I walked into a Major League
ballpark with my dad. Probably get that answer maybe every
now and then, but I remember, you know, I was
probably nine, this is old, lived in a Dalfa Worth area,
walked in the old Arlington Stadium, which was just an
(02:38):
absolute dump of a baseball stadium, you know, one of
those cookie cutter nineteen seventies sort of utility ballparks. But
the first time you walk into the tunnel and you
see the green grass, yeah, yeah, just amazing. I think
my dad is my first, my dad's first who he
grew up in like rural Texas, so it was his
first game as well, so I think we were both
kind of like, wow, that looks much different it does
(03:00):
on TV, so that was kind of cool. And then
fast forwarding a little more, probably the first Texas OU
game I went to later and like probably in high school.
I ended up going to Texas for college later, but
that kind of sealed it for me. A friend of
mine invited me and to go with his family to
the Cotton Bowl for during a Texas State fair and
go to Texas OU, and that was just an absolutely
(03:23):
incredible experience. Barry Switzer was coaching OU at the time.
They beat Texas by forty, which they did often for
that like a period of time. But I just remember
just a if you've never been to a Red River shootout,
like the Orange and the Red, you know, split perfectly
down the middle. It's a incredible experience.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Great sec traditions. There were both of those school that's
right right now, that's fantastic. First of all, back to
back guests from the state of Texas. I have to
follow up, Brian, did you play Did you play high
school football growing up?
Speaker 6 (03:56):
I did? I did.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
I probably shouldn't have. I'm not a you can't tell
on the camera, but.
Speaker 6 (04:00):
I'm not a large man. But yeah, I mean, growing.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Up in Texas, that's just what you do. So uh,
you know, actually, my favorite sport now is probably soccer.
Probably watch more soccer than anything else. I love soccer then,
but in Texas in the eighties, soccer was the you know,
sissy sport. And growing up in more of a rural
Texas so you, yeah, everybody played high school football and
you just kind of had to do.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
You have a team that you cheer for more than
more than any other.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
H I mean, try talking about like soccer, soccer, soccer. Sorry, yeah, man,
I am glutton for punishment. I'm I'm an Everton fan
mainly because you know, when I always watched a lot
of English soccer. But you know, back in the day
you could only get you might get one game on Saturday,
one game on Sunday. You just couldn't get a lot.
And Tim Howard was playing it. Everton had just gotten
(04:49):
to Everton. Landon Donovan was there on loan and as
a result, they just showed Everton matches. So started watching them.
Kind of like the club, it was kind of always
fighting for elevancy, like in the top top half of
the table. Then did a lot more research on the club.
It's kind of the people's club, working man's club. I
grew up in a working class household. Just sort of
it felt like it. It made more sense than suddenly
(05:12):
be oh, I'm a Manchester United fan.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I knew it was coming. That's my team, that's my squad.
And I pushed back only because I was never a
fan of that team that went out there and spent
the money and had the endless checks, Like yeah, you
know I was. I always grew up wondering what it
would be like if I was with my friends and
I was a Yankee fan or a Dallas Cowboy or
a Laker fan. I just wish I knew what that
was like. And then I was late to the soccer
(05:37):
game and I'm like, Manchester, let's go.
Speaker 5 (05:41):
Trust me my son and my son. I have a
fifteen year old son who plays pretty high level club
soccer here in San Diego. But he like, he's like, dude,
why didn't you choose someone better? Because now he's an
Everton fan and he hates and he hates it because
he had been because he grew up with like Everton
jerseys since he was like six months old, and he's like,
why didn't you choose someone better? Like this sucks? This
(06:03):
is not fun to read for these guys.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
That though, No, you're right about that.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
I'm a big fan of Tim Howard and his Tim
Howard shares the Sean Braves, Evan Davis bald head, metal,
scruffy beard.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
Look, yeah, I dressed.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Up him as him for Halloween one year. How about that?
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Yeah, you guys could have been dueling Tim Howard.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
There it is.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I'd have to hit the gym for about six months
to dress up.
Speaker 6 (06:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Man, Well, Brian, we're lucky to have you this this morning.
A lot to get to so let's dive right into it.
And like I said, your your LinkedIn is very revealing
and you put out there. Hey, look, I've been a
part of some some opportunities that have completely blown up
in my face. And I've been a part of some
unbelievable places that have had some great results and still
(06:50):
growing to this day. So in the sports gambling space,
a little generic question to get us started here, you know,
because you tackle it all from the analytics to the
marketing to you know, to use your acquisition. What interests
you the most at this point in time as someone
was to come to you with the business idea, what
sort of gets your your intendants going up the most?
Right now?
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Yeah, right now? You know I think I love, like,
you know, micro betting and sort of the alternative sports
piece of the business. If someone came to me today,
I mean obviously, if someone came into me today so
they wanted to be an operator, I would tell them
to go do something else. Because unless you have a
war chest of half a billion or a billion dollars
in capital, you're you're gonna have a really hard time
(07:33):
challenging anybody in the operator space, even if you were
trying to go like you know, in a state by
state or something like that. So for me, I look
a lot of B to B stuff and I really love,
like I'm on the I'm a board observer for all
sports Data. I really love what they're doing as a
way of kind of bringing in sort of non traditional sports,
(07:55):
using that as sort of a gateway to get get
people who maybe you know, wouldn't have looked into sports
betting and to begin with, but now that you can
bet on you know, World Surf League or something like that,
you can actually you'll get them in the door to
kind of maybe figure out what the sports betting things
all about. And they have a great, great way to
kind of get those people in and then hopefully get
them betting on NFL and things like that. So I
(08:15):
really love that sort of B to B aspect of it.
And then the micro betting side I find really interesting.
I'm not working on any micro betting things at the moment,
but I love the guys. I mean, obviously simple bet
a lot of people know, but the team at Kiro
Sports I think is doing some really cool stuff where
you're you know, kind of taking micro betting to soccer,
and they've done some really interesting things internationally where you
(08:38):
can basically bet on things like will there be a
throw in in the next two minutes? Right, So they're
almost kind of adding that like kind of a slot
machine mechanic to sports betting, because I mean, who can
be a sharp better when you're betting next throw in
the next two minutes, right? That's it's it's very much
a sort of second screen experience while you're watching the game,
(08:58):
throw a little action on on markets like that. So
those are things that really kind of get me excited
about sort of the future of sports betting.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
I love the micro betting concept. Like I was at
a Phillies game last last year, I guess, with just
a few buddies, and you know, it was really interesting
to see, Like it's one thing if you bet twenty
bucks or how much on you know, the game outcome itself.
But we were sitting there making you know, fifty cent
wagers or dollar wagers on like the speed of the
(09:28):
next pitch, right, and all that kind of stuff, and
it is really it's so engaging, even though any one bet.
You're not winning or losing anything of any consequence, but
it just gives you that second screen or in this case,
you know your your screen that sort of caught you know,
helps out with your live experience as well. So I
couldn't agree with Moore. I think it's a huge area
(09:50):
for growth.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
It's a great companion to watching sports, so you don't
feel like you have to be really invested in it.
If you miss a couple of micro bets, no big deal.
But it's something you can do kind of on your own,
on your own volition. And it's funny because we talked
earlier right off the bat about Arlington Stadium and Texas
baseball games, Rangers baseball. I used to go with my
buddies even in high school, and we would bet on
(10:12):
or off right like a dollar each on the end
of the half inning, guy throes to baseball on the mound?
Does it stay on the mound? Does it roll onto
the grass? And we would literally take turns betting on
off dollar a pop. And that's like the one of
the first probably instances for me of micro betting, and
it just made you know, the break between endings a
little more interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Brian, what would you say, because this is probably a
very you know, generic question here and if somebody that
was listening and asked you the question and I put
my hand in the air as well. What is the
difference between micro betting and live wagering? Are they similar?
Similar in your mind? Is there a distinct difference that
you go to more so, what would you say to
(10:55):
that question?
Speaker 5 (10:56):
I mean, yeah, if you who knows, you probably asked
ten people get ten different answers. But for me, micro
betting is just a kind of a subset of live betting,
because obviously live betting for me is betting game outcomes
as well. Right, you can bet Rangers, Phillies and the
fourth inning on game winner, things like that. You know
before obviously ten fifteen years ago, you go to Vegas
(11:19):
and you bet pre match, pre game, and then you
wait two and a half three hours before.
Speaker 6 (11:24):
You know and if you win.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
Now with with with live betting, obviously you can make
bets throughout the entire wager, almost up until the end
of the game. Micro betting is just a microcosm of that.
Takes it really down to like the minutia of sports
where you almost don't mean you really don't care who's
winning who the battery. I mean, you're you're literally just
betting like the super super small increments in sports, and
(11:48):
it really does, I think you ask a lot of
people in the industry, it really does add a slot
machine more style, very casual style of betting just for
an engagement play to get you know, kind of increase
that handle.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
So Brian tells how you got into the world of
sports betting in.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
In the first place. Can I say back asswords on
the on the show. I mean just completely completely fell
into it. I mean, it depends on what you want
to go back. I I even got into real money
gaming almost by accident. I was working in the Bay Area,
worked over a variety of like mobile and casual gaming
(12:28):
companies like you know, mobile games, Facebook games like that
kind of stuff, and uh, you know, kind of had
some successes and some failures. Through that found my way
with some some friends we started a company called Rocket Play,
which was a social casino, so free to play slots,
just because that was all the rage those days. Led
slot of mania was you could see it growing by
(12:49):
leaps and bounds. So we kind of built a slot
engine in a game and off we went. You know,
fast forward like three years later from that company and
we got acquired by slot machine developer out of ag
at a Vegas called AGS. It was really small at
the time but was starting to grow. Was owned by
Apollo Gaming Capital out of New York, so private equity.
They're investing in the business, trying to pump it up.
(13:10):
So we got acquired by AGS and that kind of
put me into real money gaming. They bought us to
be their interactive division, and then I became head of
interactive at AGS. And then when PASSPA was repealed in
twenty eighteen, as the interactive guy, they just said, hey,
go go look into sports betting and see what we
should be doing in sports betting, and it turns out nothing.
AGS decided not to do anything, but I met and
(13:33):
I started going to sports betting conferences and meeting people
and ended up meeting my who would become my boss
at Betfread met him a conference. I don't know if
you guys, Evan, if you were at ICE Boston.
Speaker 6 (13:43):
I think he only did one.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
It was a terrible conference. But I ended up meeting
Mark Stebbings, who was chief operating officer of all of
Betfread met him at the conference. Six months later, when
I left AGS, he called me and said, hey, we're
going to We're entering the US. You know, do you
want to would you want to run the US for US?
And I had to. I reminded him. I was like, hey,
just make sure you remember who I am. You didn't
(14:06):
call the wrong guy. Like, I've never worked in sports
betting before, never worked in a retail.
Speaker 6 (14:10):
Book, never done any of that. And he was like yeah.
He was like, yo, you can learn that.
Speaker 5 (14:15):
We want your digital experience because it's going to be
a digital you know, digital is going to drive the market.
So we'd rather have a digital guy and you can
bring in a retail guy or you can learn that piece.
So I jumped to That's why I wanted my next
job to be in betting, in sports betting. So yeah,
I jumped at it. Didn't interview anywhere else. I just
when you offered the job, I took it, and off
(14:35):
I was off and running. I was like October twenty
nineteen and then yeh hit the ground running from there,
built an office in Vegas and.
Speaker 6 (14:42):
Yeah, there we are.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
So you were chief operating officer of betfred US for
several years and so take us through. I mean, obviously
there's a ton to unpack there. But Betfred, you know,
is not some fly by night brand, right, I mean,
this is a huge operation out of the UK. And
I think what oftentimes people here don't appreciate is that
(15:08):
if you go back, well, certainly, I mean you go
back you know, decades and decades, right, but even if
you just look back to the day before past, but
got repealed at what the market looked like in places
like the United Kingdom, there's some incredibly successful, you know,
prolific brands there that people here at the time.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Had never even heard of. Yeah, I mean, yeah, so
Betfred bet first. I'll bet my time at Betfriend was awesome.
They're actually a lot of people always want to know
is there a Fred, And the answer is yes. Fred
Doane is still the chairman of the company. He's got
a phenomenal story.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
We could probably do an hour on.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
Just just pread just an amazing dude and make good company.
And yeah, and their their household name in the UK,
especially in north northern England. They're based in the Manchester
in between a little town between Mensester and Libool, but
they cover all the British you know, the British or
the English Rugby League is the Betfred Rugby League. They
(16:07):
cover English Master, British Masters, darts, billiards, soccer. They're the
official betting partner of Manchester United, all sorts of So it
is a household name, there's a shop on every corner.
But yeah, coming and bringing that brand, a legacy brand,
into the US, yeah it was. It was certainly a
challenge and you know, I can talk about a lot
of the reasons why, but I think when we when
(16:30):
they decided to enter the US, I think everyone thought
at the time, which was wrong, that the US would
look like the UK market. The UK market is highly fragmented.
There's probably one hundred different operators that all have some
sort of decent market share revenue, and it's led by
bet three six five is the leader in the UK
(16:50):
at about whatever twenty percent market share. So I think
everyone thought that the US would look very similar to that,
where you have, you know, maybe one or two big
big heads and then you have a really long tail
of people with single digit market share and then even
longer tail of like the smaller guys.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
So that's the.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Reason Betfred came in and we came in and we
wanted to be.
Speaker 6 (17:10):
Active everywhere I wanted.
Speaker 5 (17:11):
We went after market's hard at that time. There's a
bit of a land grab. There's everyone going there probably
overpaid for market access. Were definitely overpaid for market access,
but we all we want everyone thought you had to
be first market, you had to be part of that
first wave where you just get left behind, And that
was kind of the strategy bet Fred took early on retrospect.
(17:32):
There's a lot a lot of things that didn't turn
out the way we had expected, and we could dive
into some of that. But that was sort of the
reason I was excited about joining is because it was
a big brand and knew what they were doing. You
know they do I don't know, eight hundred million in
revenue and you know, worldwide outside of the US. So yeah,
it wasn't some fly by night startup that was kind
(17:53):
of jumping into things for the first time.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Obviously, I want to follow up right there and say, yeah,
I would love to hear a little bit more on
why in your mind it wasn't so successful and to
the point that you know, look like you brought up
with you know, some of the guys that are just
have so much money in the war chest, like DraftKings
and FanDuel MG and whatever it is, and it just
seems like if you're not a part of that, you
don't have the money to spend. Good luck. Is there
(18:18):
more to that in your mind?
Speaker 5 (18:22):
I mean, that's it probably boils it down to the
basics it. You know, I think everyone knew that DraftKings
and FanDuel would have a head start. You just obvious
they They've been building a brand for ten years.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
You know.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
I remember back in two thousand and whatever, eight or something,
you couldn't turn on a radio. I was living in
San Francisco at the time. You couldn't turn on sports
radio without hearing I mean, it was a joke almost
that you would hear you know twenty you know, daily
fanity either FANDUL, DraftKings. I forget who else that someone
Draft Kings bought, Like Draft there were so many drafts
at the time, but they're they're all over radio.
Speaker 6 (18:57):
So they really built you know, they did a really good.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Job of building brand and building their database. I think
everyone thought they would have a little bit of a
head start. But you know, fast forward today and markets
like you know, Maryland or Virginia. They have eighty percent
market share between the two of them. I don't think
I think that who knows, maybe that even surprises them,
but they certainly surprised the rest of us. Coming into
the market. We thought, you know, yeah they would lead,
(19:21):
but they wouldn't be that far ahead.
Speaker 6 (19:23):
And I think it really does come down to I.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
Mean, they have great products as well. I don't mean
to dispare as their products, but the brand.
Speaker 6 (19:30):
Uh yeah, I think we.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Underestimated just how powerful those two brands were going to be.
And then I think also how powerful their willingness or
their threshold for pain would be, like short term pain.
And that's how conversation I used to have with my
with the board in England all the time is when
they'd say we need to go faster, my response would
(19:52):
always be able to hit your threshold for pain because
it's going to have to be really, really high. And
I know the don family is very, very wealthy, but
we're talking like, you know, the threshold pain's going to
be like four to five hundred million high, and you
know at some point that you know it's that the
numbers can be that can sometimes become too big.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
You talked about the database also, which I think is
sometimes I don't want to say overlooked, because it's not
like we're the only ones saying that, but perhaps underappreciated
draftings and Fandel had you know, rosters of specific individual
customers who were just prime aligned for being sports betting customers,
(20:34):
right because as we all know, I mean sports better
most sports betters, not all, but most are you know,
sports fans, right, but many sports fans are not necessarily
sports betters. And it's figuring out that delineation and the
folks who were doing daily fantasy sports in twenty seventeen,
(20:56):
where the people buy.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
And large who were betting real money on sports.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Betting twenty eighteen, right, And so yeah, it was the
crossover that get you know, sports media companies or just
other gaming operations didn't.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
Have yeah, one hundred percent, because at that point they
already you know, you had license to do business with
them for lack of a better word, They've already they'd
already trusted you with their credit card, they already paid
you specifically for the purpose of making some kind of
a wager on a sporting outcome, uh, whether it be
DFS or whatever. So that yeah, just making moving those
(21:31):
people in the sports meting was pretty seamless. You know,
you compare that to.
Speaker 6 (21:35):
A company like Fanatics, who, whatever.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
Reason has I would I mean maybe their internal metrics
are different, but that had I think for the market
side has significantly underperformed where everyone thought they were going
to be or wherever they kind of told everyone they
would be. And I think the big reason for that is, Yeah,
they have a big database as well, they have a
big brand, but I'm not sure everyone knows the Fanatics
brand as much as you know the Philly store powered
(21:58):
by Fanatics, right, Finax has always of the sub brand.
But you know, they touted their database of people who've
already given their credit cards to them, But when you
really kind of drill down to that database, that's probably
not the sports betting database. Because I know, the person
who buys the most Fanatic stuff in my house is
my wife. She buys gifts for me.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
My son, her brothers.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
I mean, she's anything we buy on fin x is
probably on her account, and that's you know, she's never
made a sports wager in her life, so it's a
I think Fanatics probably overplayed the size of their database
and the impact that would have on their sports betting business.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
So so take us to what you're doing now. You're
you're working with companies sort of across the space. What
I mean, you can call them out by name if
you want, but what types of companies and what are
they doing and what do you think we're going to
see as you know, for consumers in this space. So
we're going to hear about these companies. Are they going
to all be doing cool stuff behind the scenes and
(22:54):
we're just going to see it on the front end
when we log onto an operator one day?
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean there's the there's a couple of things.
Speaker 6 (23:02):
A couple of things I'm working on.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
A lot of the ones I work with are B
two B so they won't necessarily be sort of front
and center from a brand perspective with consumers, but they're
looking to power some really cool stuff on the back
end that consumers will obviously consume. I think All Sports
Data is one of those we talked about that.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
I think they're they're getting more and.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
More books that are bringing in that content. That content
is great filler content, especially in the summer. Now that
we get into football season, all all attention on college
and football and NFL, but during the summer with you
World Serve League and skateboarding and all drag racing and
all sorts of stuff. You know, books are looking to
fill content, So that's that's a great one. I have
another company I'm working with called Wager Games that is
(23:45):
adding looking to add like a social element to the
front end of sports books. So you know, like we're
doing now. You know, sports is inherently a social activity,
but sports betting, for the most part, when you're doing
it is not right. You're you're looking at a wall
of you know, you're looking at bay. Especially a very
casual fan opens a sport, an online sports for the
first time, it's a little confusing to wall of numbers.
(24:06):
It's not particularly engaging. Wager Games is looking to add
a social element to that. So basically a tab where
you can actually consume content from you know, whether it
be sports betting, influencers or personalities or things like that,
and you can easily tail their bets with a one
tap click.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
And then in a few.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Companies they've rolled out in for tests, they've they've actually
a really nice increase in margin. So you have a
lot of people basically tailing same game parlay as things
like that. So I really love what.
Speaker 6 (24:38):
They're doing and they're slated to have a.
Speaker 5 (24:40):
Pretty good football season as well. But then it kind
of outside of that, I'm working with, you know, everyone's
dirty little secret sweep steaks. I have a lot of
different swepstakes clients, which we again, we could probably do
a whole episode on what sweep stakes sweepstakes gaming is,
but it's definitely growing here in the US at least
maybe a three to five window, three to five your
window for that. And yeah, and then at hand a
(25:03):
couple of different sports media companies, uh that are that
are doing some really interesting stuff and trying to just
get more involved in sports betting affiliates things like that.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
The well sports, the all sports data is awesome because
that's right in my wheelhouse, Brian, I'm a big motocross
guy and anything as far as motorcycles are concerned. And
it's interesting again, uh, probably a generic question as you
get one hundred times, but those events, those sports aren't
available on the other books out there, like DraftKings and
FanDuel and so on and so forth.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
Uh, well, all sports data is the feed so so
brand Panduel, DraftKings, and you know, those kinds of companies
are the customers of all sports data. So yeah, so
you you know they're you know, what they're really working
right now is getting getting those sports out there more,
getting more books to cover those markets and to take
those markets. Uh. But they you know, they had a
really nice increase in their business this year specifically because
(25:58):
you know, people, you know, during that kind of dead
zone of summer where there's got a whole lot to
bet on, you know, being able to lay some wagers
on some different sports is really interesting for people.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
X games and then who knows what might have sparked
some interest from the Olympics. You never know. I mean
that one guy with the gun that was a great meme.
You know, it was everywhere.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Yeah, yeah, maybe they should going out getting the target shooting.
I'm very sure what that sports called. I'm sure there's
a governing body somewhere along the way. Uh.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Brian, let me ask you this question here from your
LinkedIn and I think it's a great one line again
wide open. You say you've been a part of wildly
successful startups as well as spectacular flameouts. Not interested in
names or anything along those lines, but one lesson that
you've learned that you have taken from one of those flameouts.
I think we learn more when when things don't go
(26:46):
right and you know, the expectations aren't met. And I
don't know if that's the case here, but one lesson
that you might want to put out there for our
listening audience.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Oh man, that's a tough question, you know. I think
that so I have been I've been a part of
a three or four different startups that all went to.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Put all within the sports gambling space.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
No, no, it was all pre uh you know, pre
before I even got in. It was more the traditional
gaming and consumer internet space. But I think the lessons
I think you can still learn. For me, it was
just perseverance for without sounding too cheesy, because you know,
I think a lot of people I have some friends
who have had you know, flameouts and startups and then
(27:31):
they just said that's not for me, and they went
back to Fortune five hundred, big company.
Speaker 6 (27:36):
For me, that was just never.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
I never enjoyed working for large.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
Entities, you know.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
I think it was one of the companies I worked for.
I think I I think it when I decided to
go into startups, I was working for AOL and when
I started to go into startups, I was literally working
on a PowerPoint presentation and I saved it and I
looked at the save and it was like version twenty four.
So it had on like for me to my bosses
up to their bosses back down to me and make
(28:04):
this change, make that change. And by the time I
finished the final it was literally like version twenty four.
And I'm like, I literally spent hours and then just tweaking.
I mean, I was like, this is bullshit. I'm out
of here. I can't do this anymore. So then I
took a job at my first startup, and I absolutely
loved it. It was like, you know, twelve people, we
were doing like DVD trading that we're trying to compete
(28:27):
with Netflix, but with actual like DVDs you own, so
you can trade DVDs be in the mail of your
own DVD collections, and uh it's just I mean, obviously
it's terrible.
Speaker 6 (28:36):
Idea, but you know, I learned a ton got into.
Speaker 5 (28:39):
The startup world metal, you know, just at BC communities
and at other startups, and then I when I left
that one, I went to the next one. So I
think just to dusting yourself off and moving on and
you know, and and trying again. I think was sort
of the probably the biggest lesson I learned. I think
second from an executive perspective is fail fast, Like don't
don't drag, don't drag it on and like if you're
(29:01):
if you know, go bit, you know, make your take
your best shot. But the writing's on the wall, you know,
pittot pitt and move on to something else, or you know,
get the capitol back and move and and go do
something else. I mean, just there are too many startups
that sort of I think you know that just I
think people call them zombies where they have enough money
(29:21):
to kind of keep going, but everyone kind of knows
that ain't gonna be successful long term. So for me,
it's it's failed fast. You'll know what you don't know
and either you know, pittot into something else or go
do something else. So what do you think the what
do you.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Think the sports betting space looks like in I don't know,
let's call it seven or eight years. We're about seven
years in, so let's call them another seven years from now.
Is it just we've got this small number of operators
that are you know, kind of doing doing all of
the market share in the space, is it Is it
(29:57):
going to look different, the rules going to change, or
we're gonna have these sweepstakes platforms out there? I mean
where where do you what do you think everything looks
like here in let's call it, you know, twenty thirty one?
Speaker 5 (30:08):
Yeah, I think yeah, I think if if it's just
sports betting, like the sports betting only no I gaming,
like if those same states are still just sports betting only,
I think the market, the competitors in the market are
probably half of what they are now. I know, enough
over you know, we're leaving Bedford for four years to
(30:29):
do to do sports betting on good to launch in
sports betting only markets as a challenger brand. It's incredibly
difficult and it's hard anyway. I mean, even FanDuel and
Drafting would probably tell you sports betting only markets are
really hard to make money because margins are so low.
I mean, they've done a really good job obviously with
the same game parlays. But you know, as they make
(30:51):
more money, do you have places like Illinois and other
states start, you know, raising taxes because if you're making
more money, then you want to make more money. It's
it's it's it's just a really tough business. The highly
fragmented nature of the US market makes it inherently tough
for small companies because like a bedfread, you know, we
had we were in ten different states when I left,
(31:13):
and we had we had, you know, just because of
regulations and the Wire Act, you had to have servers
in all ten of those places. So we probably we
had enough, we had few enough customers. We could have
served all of our customers with one tech stack in
the cloud, no problem. But because of the regulatory framework
in the US, we had to have million dollars and
maybe just under a million dollars, but eight hundred and
(31:34):
fifty nine hundred thousand dollars tech stacks in every state
we were doing business in. So man, it's a ten
million dollars in capital outlay that shouldn't have been required.
Like that kind of stuff. And then the differences in
states and the regulatory frameworks and the painful licensing process
and the ongoing compliance. It's just really hard for a
small company to do business in multiple states. So by that,
(31:56):
just for that alone, just for sports betting only, I
think it's I mean, you're even seeing it. Alex, Betfread has
left since I've left, They've left three or four markets.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
You have.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
Typico is eight eight eighths left, bet Ways left. You
know a lot of those guys and those are all
I don't think people in the US realize. But just
like Betfread, Typico and Betway, those are massive companies in Europe.
You know, those are not just fly by night companies,
and they've all tapped out and said no, this isn't
for us. But I think a lot of that is
because it's you know, sports betting only is just really hard,
(32:27):
and without eye gaming the support and offset some of
those losses and to kind of grow the entire market,
I think it's gonna be really hard for tier twos
to ever compete. So seven years from now, you're probably
left with a handful of Tier ones and then maybe
one or two Tier twos and that's pretty much it.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
It's interesting you talk about margins. You know, it's such
a that's such a common knowledge, I would say, within
the industry, and yet often not super well perceived outside
of it.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
You know, I had somebody to tell me that years
and years ago.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
He worked, you know, in a larger Vegas property and
they're on their P and L.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
Sports betting was rolled up under.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Other because it was just kind of like so inconsequential,
and it takes up all this space physical space in
a casino, and yet the margins that you're doing are
just like not meaningless, but close to meaningless. And that's
I think what was so surprising for the industry was
that Fandel and DraftKings came out and said we're we're
(33:29):
this sports betting focused brands as opposed to these casino
gaming focus brands. Because and that's why I game there's
such a huge push toward legalizing ie gaming is because
online casino the margins there for operators are materially higher,
and so the idea is, can you get your customers
to go down that root too? And you know, Brian,
(33:52):
you touched on same game parlays. I mean, anyone who
loads up a sportsbook now, you know, can tell you
how hard same game parlays are being pushed. And it's
for no reason other than the margins are higher. And
when we talk about the margins being higher, we just
mean that the old raids higher, which means that for
the player they're they're less likely to win, right, they're
(34:13):
less likely to win the same retard or achieve the
same return. And so you know, those are the things
that are being done subtly or in some cases not
so subtly, behind the scenes. But it's really interesting to
sort of see and hear, you know, the industry conversation
around this, and then recognize how that appears to the
(34:35):
consumer because I use, well, you're in California, but I
use these apps right in Pennsylvania, and and see like, how,
oh my gosh, the same game parlay push over the
last two years has just been I mean almost comical.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
Well, yeah, because you look at so standard back in Vegas,
old school Vegas, you know, where you're basically betting full game.
Speaker 6 (34:57):
You know, you don't have a lot.
Speaker 5 (34:58):
Of props and things like that. Those they traded it
like a three percent margin, maybe four if they were
you know, had if it results went their way. So
I mean, that's just tiny, tiny, And I tell people
all the time, like there's a reason why when you
go to Vegas the floor is covered in slot machines
and not sports books, because I mean that's obviously that's
where the money is made. Sports books. Sports books are
(35:20):
are an amenity. They're to keep people from leading the
property to go do something else.
Speaker 6 (35:24):
You know, they can play.
Speaker 5 (35:26):
They play tables and slots where they can go over
and make a sports wager, watch a game, but get
them back to the tables and slots as soon as possible,
so you know, you can do sports betty. You can
have those big, beautiful sports books in Las Vegas because
they're subsidized by the gaming revenue on the casino floor.
Without that subsidization in places like you know, Illinois and Pennsylvania,
(35:48):
Slot Illinois and Colorado and all the other you know,
big states without eye gaming, it's just it's really really hard.
I mean, you have, you know, one of the best
books in Vegas, the super Book. They just tapped out
of all their regional markets because they're like not, you know,
because they their whole method of trading it low margin
(36:09):
and taking all bets and all that sort of stuff
just doesn't work regionally because you will get you will
get your clock cleaned. There's it's just too difficult to
to constantly play whack them all with all the sharps
without you know, slot revenue to offset those losses.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Brian great stuff. Look, we've We've gone thirty minutes here.
I want to get one more from you if you
if you want to mind, then I'm going to bring
this up because it's again a fantastic follow Brian Bennett
will put it out on all of our recaps here,
especially at Foxpho Gambler dot com. But you talk a
little bit about the social from the standpoint of marketing
(36:47):
and and when it comes to strategy. And I asked
this question on a previous episode and basically coming from
an affiliate angle, but taking it even more for the
average Joe's that are out there trying to make it
in this space, whether it's an influencer trying to create content.
Is there a social media path that you look through
(37:08):
the most. Is there an algorithm that you appreciate more
than others? It's just so saturated right now. And this
is coming from my angle where I'm live Monday through Friday.
So I'm just curious from a from a digital marketing
social strategy, is there one that you would look to
before others, you.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
Know, as a as a you know, as a content creator.
I think for me, I think the most important thing
in what you're delivering is deliver you know, stand behind
your You know, you see a lot of guys out
there right offering picks, but there's no sort of like
checking balance on hey did you actually make that wager?
So it's a you know, you never, I don't know
how much you can trust it. I love and you
(37:50):
know I'm gonna pitch these guys, so I'm an advisor
and Picket. I think Picket's an awesome social platform because
you can integrate or you you log into your use
your betting credentials to log into all your accounts, so
that if I'm following you on Picket and you're making picks,
I can actually go and see did you actually bet
on that? And what's your return? So if you're telling
(38:12):
me you're winning seventy percent, which you know pro tip
for all the listeners out there, nobody's winning seventy percent
of their bets.
Speaker 6 (38:19):
I mean, you're sure.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
You guys have talked about that one hundred times and
everyone tells you they are. You should run in the
other direction. But yeah, then you can actually go to
their website. You can see all the bets they made
on FANDUL, DraftKings, bet Fred whoever else, and you can
see what they're really what they're really tracking that. So
I think that's sort of like authenticity around influencers. I
(38:40):
think that's probably the best strategy for me. Just got
to be authentic, don't just don't don't be a tout,
you know, if you're going to get into social media
space and create content, there's really a fine line between
a social media influencer and a you know, someone who
delivers picks and a tut Just don't straight into the
taut territory because it's a slippery slope for there.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Or look if you if you, I promise you get
your money back if we don't win this game tonight,
all right, I'll give you my next pick three, okay.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Or let me give you one one correllary to that,
which is or do it in a way where we're
all just sitting here trying to have fun and and
we're joking about it and we're right, you know, and
we're we're doing stuff on you know, is it going
to be a first pitch fastball? And we don't know,
Like this isn't this isn't scientific. This is just a
(39:32):
bunch of guys the same thing that you're doing when
you're sitting in the outfield of the Phillies game with
your friends, but you're having like analogous conversations about that, right,
And we're doing this because it's fun to talk about
and joke about, and not because we've sat here and
crunched a gazillion numbers.
Speaker 5 (39:51):
And we're standing behind the pit. This is a rock
solid pick, right, So I.
Speaker 4 (39:56):
Totally agree with what you're saying, like, don't be a
how where you basically pretend like you're this expert and
then you can't back it up at all. But right,
But at the same time, we don't all need to
be experts to do this and have fun as long
as we're doing it responsibly. And I think that's the
key that sometimes you lose the forest through the trees.
(40:19):
It's like, let's talk picks because they're fun to talk about.
Let's talk about who's what's the long shot that you
think that we're going to bet on to win the
college football national title, not because we have some this
is some huge knowledge on this, because it's fun to
talk about what Boise State might be able to do
(40:40):
this year and you know what, I'm gonna throw five
bucks on them and whatever. So I feel really strongly
that we don't get so into this industry that we
forget like what it's supposed to be about. For a
lot of people, you.
Speaker 5 (40:56):
Shouldn't be You shouldn't be making bets to pay your rent,
should be making your best to have fun. And just
on that note on college football, if you're betting on
anyone other than Texas to win the national championship.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Well that's a perfect segue. Just so you know. Obviously
Evan is a Duke guy, and I'm just telling you
from the basketball perspective, twelve to one, get the Duke
Blue Devils to cut down the nets come April. All right,
all right, that's good EXAs National championship for football, Duke
Blue Devils for basketball, Brian, excellent stuff. I mean from
(41:29):
A to Z there, sir, we took a lot from
you and great gyms, as they say, dropped throughout the
course of this podcast. Can't thank you enough again? Got
the LinkedIn? What else can we find you at? Anything
else you'd like to plug before you get out of here, sir?
Speaker 5 (41:42):
You find me on Twitter. I talk about a lot
of different things. There may be a lot of politics
mixed in there as well, so follow it your own risk.
But I do talk a lot of sports betting business
type stuff as well, so Brian H. Bennet on Twitter excellent.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Brian, can't thank you enough for being a guest here.
I'm behind the veg continue success there
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