June 20, 2025 • 10 mins
The air conditioning and refrigeration industries are asking Congress to chill an EPA initiative started under the Biden administration to change refrigerants used in AC units. The EPA move seeks to respond to climate change by changing to refrigerants such as propane, which is highly flammable. To further complicate matters, there's a phase-in period with transitional coolants. We speak with Bob Cochell, owner of Gulf Coast Air Systems, former president of the Florida Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Contractors Association, and longtime advocate for the HVAC industry.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Gordon Bird here with Beyond the News. We're going to
try to get to the bottom of an issue that
is going to affect you if you're a homeowner with
an air conditioning unit, and that covers areas of cost
and safety and regulation. There's a lot of ground to it.
We've got an expert to help us kind of break
it down for us, and it's something there is also
(00:21):
a dynamic going on on the congressional level. Bob Kochelle
is the owner of Gulf Coast Air Systems. He has
a lot of contacts and experience, of course, in the
air conditioning industry. That's his career. He's the past president
of the Refrigeration air Conditioning Contractors Association for the Tampa
Bay Area, the first president for the State Association, a
lot of other qualifications, a lot of other background. He's
(00:43):
been in this business for decades and he's going to
try to walk us through what this means for the
homeowner and first Bob Koschell, welcome to our Beyond the
News podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Thank you, Gordon.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
So you're dealing with an issue with refrigerants and over
the years, over the generations, there have been changes in refrigerants.
A lot of that is driven by regulation, and there
are issues now with new refrigerants that are being introduced
and in terms of regulation, in terms of the cost,
in terms of the supply, and there's a lot of
(01:19):
ground to cover here, but let's try to zero in
on the homeowner. Let's say you're a homeowner with an
air conditioning unit, or let's say you're buying or looking
at buying a new air conditioning unit. The situation now
that's going on in terms of the introduction conduction of
these new refrigerants and the regulations involved. How is that
(01:41):
going to affect you if you are either looking at
getting a new unit or looking at repairing or recharging
the unit that you have.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
The refrigerant that we had for twenty five years was
non toxic and non flammable. The government decided that we
would buy into the GWP global warming potential as part
of the Green New Deal, and as a result of that,
(02:15):
they were going to mandate a new refrigerant that was
naturally occurring and that would be better for this GWP number.
And that is a it's kind of like a made
up number of algorithms made up by people at universities
where this goes is that in order to get there
(02:39):
between the non toxic, non flammable and the natural occurring.
The problem with the natural occurring one is it is
non toxic, to be sure, but it is wildly flammable.
It is classified as an A three, so non toxic,
extremely flammable. You know what it is, You've used it
(03:02):
much of your life. It's blue rhino. It is propain.
It goes by the refrigerant number of R two ninety.
Now you say, well, I can smell propaine. The propaine
that's used in the gas grill is not exactly the
same as what's used in a refrigeration system. It's microfiltered
(03:23):
and it can have no scent, so you have no
knowledge that there's a leak or the presence of this gas.
It's odorless, colorless, tasteless. You know all above our two nineties.
But in order to get between the one that we've had,
our four ten A A one to the A three
(03:46):
is the new products that have been released in the
last about a year, and they are an A two L.
The A two L is non toxic but mildly flammable.
The problem with these is that there is not enough
of this A two L product. The number is our
(04:07):
four fifty four B or R thirty two different manufacturers
using different one or the other, and this shortage of
the refrigerant has caused the price to go up by
a factor of about eight eight hundred percent, and it
(04:29):
is not available in quantity, so if you needed a
little bit to top off your charge, you couldn't get it.
The cost to the retail customer of our four ten
A is something like two hundred dollars a pound. The
cost for the R four to fifty four B is
(04:50):
in the five hundred dollars to seven hundred dollars per pound.
That's a problem for the homeowner because it's roughly three
pounds two and a half to three pounds per time
of air conship.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So the problem right now is the cost This transitional
refrigerant's going to cost more, and then later on they're
moving to another refrigerant which has safety issues. So from
the homeowner's perspective, are they looking at having to get
a new unit and obviously they're looking at paying more
for refrigerant. What's this going to mean in terms of
(05:27):
cost down the road and safety for the homeowner?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Two things, the cost of the new units are much
more expensive. The compressor voters need to be explosion proof
because it's mildly flammable. The ones today the A too
us and they have to have controls on them that
if there is a refrigerant leak, it sniffs the leak
and it has a protocol about it runs the fan
(05:54):
to dilute the concentration, and then finally there's some other
protocols and then they'll finally shut the them down and
then you'll call for service and get that sorted out.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Now this is all I'm sorry, Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
The problem is that this refrigerant is not long term.
It's only in this government scheme of things for the
next three and a half years, and then it will
go away, and then you will have the A three
is the only option that you would have.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Now, as I understand that this is the result of
a regulation that was promulgated under the Biden administration, we have,
of course a different administration now in Washington. Is there
any talk at taking another look at sunsetting or putting
this regulation in the bands?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yes, yes, and yes here we go. We have been
in contact the Contracts Association with multiple government agencies, particularly
the Congress. We have contacted seven congressmen, two senators, and
when their people find out about this, they're concerned about it.
(07:03):
But with the budget and all the other different things
that they've had to worry about, they have to have
a budget in order to keep the lights on in Washington.
They have had other things going on with greater priority,
but this is a high priority and every day I
have right after this, I have two more congress people
(07:24):
they're administrators to speak to about what are we going
to do? What do we recommend? And we are recommending
that the government allow us to take out the A
too L refrigerant and to put in the safe A
one refrigerant that is your R four ten A and
to recharge them. That we cannot do that under the
(07:45):
law today, legally not allowed to do that.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So you're focusing right now on changing that one aspect
of the transition to this different refrigerant. Have looking first
of all, do you see a lot of progress on
the congressional front? And secondly, what's the long term solution
of this? And is this something that you think you'll
(08:11):
be able to influence.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yes, it's interesting that our friends to the north and
our friends to the south, Canada is still using our
four ten a. They have no prohibition on that. Mexico
still using and selling our four ten a. So the machines.
When the manufacturers say, well, we'd have to retool, that's
not exactly true because they're already selling machines that they've
(08:36):
tooled up for in both of those locations. They can
also use the old refrigerant with the new compressors, but
you can't use the new refrigermant with an old compressor
because it does not have an explosion proof motor. Do
I see short term relief? There is starting to be
(08:56):
a wind blowing to our back to try to get
people moving. There is some discussion at the congressional level
is could it be done by the EPA director, mister
Zeldon Lee Zelden, Could he change it even for six
months or a year onder an emergency basis, or would
(09:16):
it take a presidential one? Are the things that Trumps signs.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Executive order?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, executive orders, Thank you, sir, executive order, and allow
us to recharge these machines with the very plentiful R
four tena at a very reasonable price. That's what we're
aiming to have done. There is momentum in that but
we haven't turned the corner. There is nobody signed on
(09:46):
the dotted line just yet.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
It sounds like there's a lot to be following here
in terms of the regulation and the safety. Bottom line.
If you're a homeowner, be aware of this, and perhaps
you might if you are planning some service, you might
want to consider when you're scheduling that waiting to see
what comes down the pike from Washington.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yes, sir, absolutely, and you might want to keep your
old unit around a little bit longer, might want to
fix there.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
You go. Good for everybody to know, and well, best
of success in navigating your way through this issue of
red tape. And I'm sure you will be keeping everybody
informed on this, the industry will, and we'll watch to
see what comes out of Congress. Bob Koschell, the owner
of Gulf Coast Air Systems in the Tampa Bay area
(10:37):
and one of the leading figures in the air conditioning
industry across the state of Florida, thank you very much
for joining us, and thank you for calling our attention
to this issue and something to follow. Thank you very
much for joining us on beyond the News.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Most welcome. Gordon
Gordon Bird here with Beyond the News. We're going to
try to get to the bottom of an issue that
is going to affect you if you're a homeowner with
an air conditioning unit, and that covers areas of cost
and safety and regulation. There's a lot of ground to it.
We've got an expert to help us kind of break
it down for us, and it's something there is also
(00:21):
a dynamic going on on the congressional level. Bob Kochelle
is the owner of Gulf Coast Air Systems. He has
a lot of contacts and experience, of course, in the
air conditioning industry. That's his career. He's the past president
of the Refrigeration air Conditioning Contractors Association for the Tampa
Bay Area, the first president for the State Association, a
lot of other qualifications, a lot of other background. He's
(00:43):
been in this business for decades and he's going to
try to walk us through what this means for the
homeowner and first Bob Koschell, welcome to our Beyond the
News podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Thank you, Gordon.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
So you're dealing with an issue with refrigerants and over
the years, over the generations, there have been changes in refrigerants.
A lot of that is driven by regulation, and there
are issues now with new refrigerants that are being introduced
and in terms of regulation, in terms of the cost,
in terms of the supply, and there's a lot of
(01:19):
ground to cover here, but let's try to zero in
on the homeowner. Let's say you're a homeowner with an
air conditioning unit, or let's say you're buying or looking
at buying a new air conditioning unit. The situation now
that's going on in terms of the introduction conduction of
these new refrigerants and the regulations involved. How is that
(01:41):
going to affect you if you are either looking at
getting a new unit or looking at repairing or recharging
the unit that you have.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
The refrigerant that we had for twenty five years was
non toxic and non flammable. The government decided that we
would buy into the GWP global warming potential as part
of the Green New Deal, and as a result of that,
(02:15):
they were going to mandate a new refrigerant that was
naturally occurring and that would be better for this GWP number.
And that is a it's kind of like a made
up number of algorithms made up by people at universities
where this goes is that in order to get there
(02:39):
between the non toxic, non flammable and the natural occurring.
The problem with the natural occurring one is it is
non toxic, to be sure, but it is wildly flammable.
It is classified as an A three, so non toxic,
extremely flammable. You know what it is, You've used it
(03:02):
much of your life. It's blue rhino. It is propain.
It goes by the refrigerant number of R two ninety.
Now you say, well, I can smell propaine. The propaine
that's used in the gas grill is not exactly the
same as what's used in a refrigeration system. It's microfiltered
(03:23):
and it can have no scent, so you have no
knowledge that there's a leak or the presence of this gas.
It's odorless, colorless, tasteless. You know all above our two nineties.
But in order to get between the one that we've had,
our four ten A A one to the A three
(03:46):
is the new products that have been released in the
last about a year, and they are an A two L.
The A two L is non toxic but mildly flammable.
The problem with these is that there is not enough
of this A two L product. The number is our
(04:07):
four fifty four B or R thirty two different manufacturers
using different one or the other, and this shortage of
the refrigerant has caused the price to go up by
a factor of about eight eight hundred percent, and it
(04:29):
is not available in quantity, so if you needed a
little bit to top off your charge, you couldn't get it.
The cost to the retail customer of our four ten
A is something like two hundred dollars a pound. The
cost for the R four to fifty four B is
(04:50):
in the five hundred dollars to seven hundred dollars per pound.
That's a problem for the homeowner because it's roughly three
pounds two and a half to three pounds per time
of air conship.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So the problem right now is the cost This transitional
refrigerant's going to cost more, and then later on they're
moving to another refrigerant which has safety issues. So from
the homeowner's perspective, are they looking at having to get
a new unit and obviously they're looking at paying more
for refrigerant. What's this going to mean in terms of
(05:27):
cost down the road and safety for the homeowner?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Two things, the cost of the new units are much
more expensive. The compressor voters need to be explosion proof
because it's mildly flammable. The ones today the A too
us and they have to have controls on them that
if there is a refrigerant leak, it sniffs the leak
and it has a protocol about it runs the fan
(05:54):
to dilute the concentration, and then finally there's some other
protocols and then they'll finally shut the them down and
then you'll call for service and get that sorted out.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Now this is all I'm sorry, Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
The problem is that this refrigerant is not long term.
It's only in this government scheme of things for the
next three and a half years, and then it will
go away, and then you will have the A three
is the only option that you would have.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Now, as I understand that this is the result of
a regulation that was promulgated under the Biden administration, we have,
of course a different administration now in Washington. Is there
any talk at taking another look at sunsetting or putting
this regulation in the bands?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yes, yes, and yes here we go. We have been
in contact the Contracts Association with multiple government agencies, particularly
the Congress. We have contacted seven congressmen, two senators, and
when their people find out about this, they're concerned about it.
(07:03):
But with the budget and all the other different things
that they've had to worry about, they have to have
a budget in order to keep the lights on in Washington.
They have had other things going on with greater priority,
but this is a high priority and every day I
have right after this, I have two more congress people
(07:24):
they're administrators to speak to about what are we going
to do? What do we recommend? And we are recommending
that the government allow us to take out the A
too L refrigerant and to put in the safe A
one refrigerant that is your R four ten A and
to recharge them. That we cannot do that under the
(07:45):
law today, legally not allowed to do that.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So you're focusing right now on changing that one aspect
of the transition to this different refrigerant. Have looking first
of all, do you see a lot of progress on
the congressional front? And secondly, what's the long term solution
of this? And is this something that you think you'll
(08:11):
be able to influence.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yes, it's interesting that our friends to the north and
our friends to the south, Canada is still using our
four ten a. They have no prohibition on that. Mexico
still using and selling our four ten a. So the machines.
When the manufacturers say, well, we'd have to retool, that's
not exactly true because they're already selling machines that they've
(08:36):
tooled up for in both of those locations. They can
also use the old refrigerant with the new compressors, but
you can't use the new refrigermant with an old compressor
because it does not have an explosion proof motor. Do
I see short term relief? There is starting to be
(08:56):
a wind blowing to our back to try to get
people moving. There is some discussion at the congressional level
is could it be done by the EPA director, mister
Zeldon Lee Zelden, Could he change it even for six
months or a year onder an emergency basis, or would
(09:16):
it take a presidential one? Are the things that Trumps signs.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Executive order?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, executive orders, Thank you, sir, executive order, and allow
us to recharge these machines with the very plentiful R
four tena at a very reasonable price. That's what we're
aiming to have done. There is momentum in that but
we haven't turned the corner. There is nobody signed on
(09:46):
the dotted line just yet.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
It sounds like there's a lot to be following here
in terms of the regulation and the safety. Bottom line.
If you're a homeowner, be aware of this, and perhaps
you might if you are planning some service, you might
want to consider when you're scheduling that waiting to see
what comes down the pike from Washington.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yes, sir, absolutely, and you might want to keep your
old unit around a little bit longer, might want to
fix there.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
You go. Good for everybody to know, and well, best
of success in navigating your way through this issue of
red tape. And I'm sure you will be keeping everybody
informed on this, the industry will, and we'll watch to
see what comes out of Congress. Bob Koschell, the owner
of Gulf Coast Air Systems in the Tampa Bay area
(10:37):
and one of the leading figures in the air conditioning
industry across the state of Florida, thank you very much
for joining us, and thank you for calling our attention
to this issue and something to follow. Thank you very
much for joining us on beyond the News.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Most welcome. Gordon
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.