Wes Chamberlain – Former MLB & Writer

On this week's episode Wes Chamberlain sits down with Kevin to discuss how racism in the south during his college years helped shap his life and provide him the strength to succeed in the majors. After playing ball, Wes took up writing and you read his book, "In The Game" on Amazon by clicking here.

A special thanks to our sponsor Herman Marshall Whiskey. Built from the grain up. Just like good whiskey should be.
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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Guys, Kevin Mention here on theBig Head Pod. Just sitting down,
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(00:22):
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bottle. This stuff is amazing.Welcome to another edition of the Big Head

(00:50):
Pod here on the Dub Network.Today's guest former Major leaguer. I watched
this man growing up being a Philliesfan, and he wrote a book and
he is an entreprene nor of thesedays, mister West, Chamberlain West.
How are you, sir. I'mdoing pretty smooth, bro. Thanks for
having me. Absolutely absolutely, LikeI said, growing up, those early

(01:11):
nineties Phillies teams that you know,those are my teams growing up and watching
you guys and uh and the funthat that bunch, that bunch had,
and that's what baseball was to me. That's what I think. We've gone
away from that to where we youknow, to where we are today.
Um, but before we die,we we dive into all that stuff.
So growing up as a kid,right, we all played different sports.

(01:33):
You're from. You grew up inChicago South Side, southside of Chicago,
so you were a take. Soyou were a Cubs fan. Now,
I grew up a Sox fan.You grew up a Sox fan. Okay,
so but baseball only. I mean, I figured grew up in Chicago,
played hockey, basketball, what whatwas your exactly what were you doing?
You had seasons like I did growingup? Yeah, you know that's

(01:55):
what exactly. I grew up Chicagofan. I mean, but I grew
up on the South Side and myfirst major League game was at Kemiskey Park,
So you know that's helmet Dave Adollar twenty five, helmet day,
bad day, you know, onthe weekends all over the summer, and
you go, my older brothers takeme there, and I mean, hey,

(02:16):
you know, and that's where thelove of the game came in because
when my older brothers day was allathletes. And so, like you said,
in my book, all that allthat's in my book and stuff and
day the ones taught me the gameof baseball taught me like taught me sports.
So so growing up, what wasyour sportive choice? Man? We

(02:37):
did everything. Dude, you couldn't. It wasn't no sportive choice. Yeah,
you had to you either you eitherdid it or you didn't. So
you that that's what it considered youan athlete in our neighborhood. So you're
like, you say, we wentfrom season to season, smer baseball,
all that whatever was going on,bad pick up games over the summer.

(02:57):
Basketball, Then the football. There'sWalter Payton, you know, you know
the Super Bowl guys came later,you know, the ones that won,
but Walter Payton was there. Hewas our guy, Reev Shwords, you
know, Doug Plank, Gary Fanstake, all of them guys. Was the
football. Then the Bulls was artistGilmore Reggie did. That's before Michael Jordan's,

(03:20):
you know, and then the Blackhawks, Bobby Hall, all those guys,
and and I mean just it justkept you know, it was a
character. It just kept going.So you just went with the times.
Yeah, and you see that inthese northern cities where all these you know,
everything's kind of right in the samearea, and these teams, these
guys grew up watching all this differentstuff. I grew up just so outside
of Philadelphia, so you know,I'm the same way. So I remember,

(03:45):
you know, the big inst inChicago was the Disco demolition. How
old were you when that went on? Oh? Man, I don't know
the exact date, but I knowI was small and when that happened,
that was I mean, I couldhave been about man, I think I
could have been about five years old. I'm trying. If I know the
exact date, then I can tellyou how old I was, because I'm
fifty seven. It was like seventytwo that was. I'm dead, so

(04:10):
that I'm eight seven, eight yearsold. Yeah, So do you remember
anything about I just you know,I've only seen highlights of the whole of
the whole thing. Where you say, uh, did you ever see anything
of Heroin about all that were rightthere? Dude, I mean all that
was just like that was a partof it. I mean, you had
to pay to get in the stadium. But so we saw the stuff on
the news. You know, we'regrowing up. I mean we're growing up

(04:32):
in poverty. I mean we didn'thad a privilege to go to the disco
thing. So we we get allthe stuff out of it. Out of
it that comes, you know,on the news and like what happened and
everybody telling us what went on inthe stadium, and that was man,
that was why. I mean forme, you're too young, we like
here whatever. All we know isthey just tore up sending field in Comiskey

(04:56):
Park and cost a lot of moneyto uh fix it. Yeah, yeah,
I mean gone on those days forsure. I think all the all
the excitement nowadays outside in the standsand everything else. So you know,
that was just It's always something Ijust just wondered if anybody had any ideas
or thoughts on that. So growingup, so you said, how many
brothers you have? I got afour older brothers and I had two younger

(05:17):
brothers. But once deceive. Yeah. I come from a family of eleven.
I got two older sisters, yeah, and two younger sisters. I'm
number seven, so you guys numberseven, So that must have been I
don't even know how you guys evenwere able to survive. I guess it
was just survival of the fitnist withall of you. No, it was

(05:38):
else, No, it was itwas you know, minority families back then
was like close to knit, youknow, and uh where it's like the
society is trying to get away fromthat. And so with that, I
mean, my grandparents raised me,and so our grandparents raised all of us.
So when mom was at work,um, and my stepfather was at

(06:00):
work, there was you know,the grandparents raised this and then it was
it was it was as you say, there was rules and regulations, things
that you do and you don't door you get your behind with period you
follow according and so they just trinkledon down. So the older would keep
up and to the list the youngerones like, look, this is what
we gotta do. Mom come home. Everything was in order. So but

(06:25):
for me, they was as Iwas, as I was born, I
was the baby, and then theywas up in age and so they were
like moving out. So okay,that's how it was because I had the
four under me. There's a bigage gap between me and the next uh
sibling, next older brothers six yearsolder than me. So with that,

(06:46):
man said, you know, theywas the sticks there. They was already
established. So okay. So sogoing into high school, so you know,
you know, playing sports, youknow, growing up and everything.
How are you able to kind ofseparate your self, like you said,
being being grown up in poverty,correct, and going to going to high
school and then ended up going toplay at Jackson State? Correct? Yes,

(07:11):
So I talked a little bit aboutthat, about trying to get out,
you know, you know, talkingabout inner city, getting out of
right, trying to get out andgo playing the sport that you love.
And how did you choose baseball overeverything else? Well? See that's the
thing, like, like you say, grown up in poverty, we didn't
even know where it was poor whenI say that, because we grew up
in the projects. But we wewas like we weren't in the high rise
building. We were in uh anduh what we what we? What was

(07:33):
then the id B Wales, whichwas like a little they were like little
condimentus. We had a back doorand the front door with a four bedroom,
but the other other parents arounds wasin the tall high rise, the
fifteen storage buildings, uh seven storagebuildings and uh it was it was like

(07:53):
three four different settings of projects inthe area, like from thirty thirty fifth
to thirty ninth and now it's calledBronzeville because they to all the projects down.
But with that, like I'm saying, it's like, man, we're
like, okay, nobody's thinking likethat. It's just a village, you
know, like it takes everybody.But we know the stuff that's going on

(08:16):
around in the neighborhood, things thatyou like, you don't do a place.
It's like you ain't supposed to be. So with that being said,
that's where all the things in thecommunity, you know, the sports,
the boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the churches, things of that nature.
When they when all these things thatare in the in the in your

(08:37):
area, teaching you character building,character teaching you etiquettes of life, like
you don't have to choose this way, you don't have to choose that way.
Now, gangs were we're in thearea, but it was like,
uh, you don't want to beover there, you don't want to do
that, you know, things ofthat nature. Because I grew up in
the black in the black panthers areso with all that, I mean,

(09:00):
be man. It was man,it was just it's it's what it was,
you know what I mean. Itwas the rioting, It was the
Vietnam War and all that. Mybrothers they didn't go to the Vietnam War
because they had one they had alittle disability. One had something wrong with
his with his eye. He hadheard he had heard one of his eyes.

(09:20):
So he's the oldest one. Butanyway, he's like sixty four now.
But things like that, when you'regrowing up, you're not thinking about
that. You're just growing up andyou're living, you know, and things
and so and so with all thatcomes, with all that comes in that
era, you're just taking life asit comes. And like you say,

(09:41):
hey, when sports are there,I already knew that my mom couldn't afford
to send me to college. Soin any person of color, in any
minority area, the only way youget into college is through athletics or academics.
And that's what what I really setit off. In high school because

(10:01):
once you went to the college daysat high school and you're talking to the
counselor, they're just telling you whatcolleges are available, but they're not telling
you how'd you going to pay forit? Yeah, and that's and that's
and like I said, you didn'tknow any better, right, So they're
just they're just they're just telling youall this. Um, but baseball ended

(10:22):
up being your sport. But youyou know, is that is that what
you want to pursue after? Youknow, everybody has that that that dream
of what they want to be asa kid, right. Well, you
know we you know, you andI we talked about playing different sports growing
up. You know, I lovedhockey, I love baseball, um and
soccer and everything else. But youknow, I've always wanted to be a
baseball player. But you know,I really wasn't sure that would be my

(10:43):
avenue, right until until you knowsomething, they something just clicks and you
go, maybe I can do this. Right, did you have that moment
of that, you know, ofwanting to play baseball beyond the high school
side of it? Well, whenI first went to Comiskey Park and I
got an autograph I think it wasfrom bad Bosley or Ron Lafloor, one

(11:03):
of the outfielders, and we snuckdown to the thing and you know,
they kick a little black kids out. What are you doing down here?
You know, hey, I'm justkeeping it real, you know what you're
doing down here? And we're tryingto get balls. We're trying to get
on the ground. Were there inbad and practice? And so he called
They called us over and they threwthe ball. They gave the ball personally
to us in our hands. SoI looked at my older brother and he

(11:26):
was the stud. My older brother'sname is Larry, and technically he was
he was the best athlete in ourfamily. You know, they say the
youngest one always, you know,be the one that that springs out.
So he was the younger of myfour older brothers. And and so I
was like, man, I waslike, you know, Shot got to

(11:46):
us, like could I do that? You know, and he's like,
yeah, you want to do this? I said, I'm Thoma, can
I play that? You know?I want to play baseball like that,
you know, like these guys.And he was like, what you mean
you want to play? I said, I want to play on this field?
You know. I was looking atthese grown yea, and yeah,
I am like four years old,and he's like, man, yeah you
can do that. Man, ifyou want to do it, he said,
I help you. And that wasit. That was it. I

(12:11):
mean, that was baseball. AndI mean that was being in that moment
getting that autograph and they're getting kickedout of the section. After we got
the autographs, they left us alonethen, but they was like, let
us see your tickets blah blah blah. And we had grandstand tickets with I
say a buck twenty five. Soonce that was over, you know,
we went on up, got ourlove cotton candy, ice cream and running

(12:35):
around and staateum and I was justreally at all watching the game just and
it was like, man, okay, that's what I want to do.
I was hooked. I mean nomatter what I played, all other sports
they helped, they helped, youknow, to your abilities and things of
that nature. But I fell inbaseball, fell in love with baseball at
that moment. Yeah, so youget that, you get that opportunity.

(13:00):
Were you drafted out of high school? Yea? Or is that even a
possible you were drafted out of highschool? Okay? Was that you know
that senior year and stuff. Howyou know, people don't understand how that,
you know, how that can work. You know back then you know
scouts around or was it just somethingthat you had any idea that that was
even possible or is it just thoughtyou just thought, okay, high school
baseball and then I'm done. Ohno, no. Well, being around

(13:22):
my older brother, I learned everything. I mean, you know, he
played, like I said, hewas stood and all his guys. So
he's like babysaid the US babysit.Baseball was babysitting for me. So I
was always the extra kid, likewhen nobody show up, come at polke,
come on, go to go outthere, go out, you know,
because he they taught me the game. My brothers, they taught me
it. Hit stand up there,blah blah blah, don't don't you move,

(13:45):
hit the ball, you know,like that took the fear out instantly.
So a lot of people don't understandthat about baseball, you know.
So but anyway, being around him, I was like a caddy, you
know, not just whenever I'm tellingyou I've been I've been playing with guys
older than me my whole life.So I wasn't afraid. So when they

(14:07):
put me in there, it's like, oh, man, he can play.
He's like, yeah, yeah,you can play. I told him,
and boom that was it. Andso with that, when I would
play with older guys, I wasable to carry my weight. You know.
I didn't had no power, nostraightening like that. But I was
like a leadoff here to contact here, a good fielder with these guys six
and seven years ten years older thanme. But when I went back with

(14:28):
guys my age, I was Iwas the home run hit I was like
Dave Kingman or Willie start you so, you know, yeah, you know
I was, you know, becauseall the home run hitter is predominantly was
left hand batters with coming up,and yeah, you know, Dave Kingman
wasn't home. But then Dick Allen, I you know, when he came
over, and I was like,yeah, I liked rich Dick Allen.

(14:50):
I like Richie Allen. He washitting bombs for the Socks, dude.
And he was like the only guybecause all the other guys, like I
said, for the white Socks,was contact hitters. And then the only
other minority black player was Bill Madlock. When I growed up, but he
was a three under hitter. Sowith that, I used to bat like
everybody's I knew everybody's batting stands,you know, play my own games things

(15:13):
of that nature, and mimic andcopy, and we'll teach him what my
brothers is. Uh, you know, taught me how to hit. Then
you just walk around playing by myselfwith bottle caps, sticks, bam bams,
just playing the game and having funall sume along. Yeah, that's
what I remember. Anything any hadI could hit with a whifftball, about

(15:35):
a rock, bottle camp, whatever, whatever was around, we were gonna
try and hit it. And I'mlike you, My brothers are ten and
fourteen years older than I am,so I was I always gravitated to the
older guy. So as a kid, you know, they were I wasn't
cut slack, right, I'm sureyou weren't cut slack either by your brothers
and that, and I think thathelped me kind of respect the game and
respect the older guys to that point, but also understanding, you know,

(15:56):
even though you're older than me,I could still like you and kind of
hanging in that in that mix,and it helped you to you know,
to get to that to that nextlevel. Right, so um, so
with all that and everything else,so you get so they come So how
did the whole Jackson State thing comeabout? Well, Jackson State came is
because I got drafted out of college. But the thing is this, like

(16:17):
you mentioned earlier, h We're seeingall these older guys get drafted out of
high school. And then Robert Tripletthe signed at seventy eight, nineteen seventy
eight, Oldis Irvin nineteen seventy nine. They both came out out of winddelle
Phillis High School and Stanley cows Uhhe pitched. So Robert Triplett was drafted

(16:37):
by the Cubs. That was abig thing in our neighborhood. He's growed
right up. I'm going to schoolwith his little brother, you know,
with his both brothers, and theyhe gonna make it to the major leagues.
And it's like wow, you know, that's a big thing, you
know, And he wound up signingout of high school. Oldis Irvin was
next. Stanley cow was first.He was like nineteen seventy seven. He

(16:59):
was a pitcher, and I thinkhe finally did get that with the Oakland
Athletics and he got a cup ofcoffee right hand picture through real hard,
like about ninety five. I thinkhe talpped out about a hundred. He
used to call him Baby Jr.Baby Jr. Richards. Yeah. So
but with that, seeing these guysgetting drafted out of high school, I
already knew that there's a possibility toget drafted, but there was never a

(17:22):
thought in my mind to say I'mgonna get drafted out of high school.
I'm looking at these guys going likewow, watching them play over the summer
for money two dollars a man,you know, like yeah, you know
what I mean, for beer andstuff like that. Yeah, and see
right, they all understand it waspickup games, but you had to have
two dollars. Two dollars a lotof money back then, dude, So

(17:45):
exactly. So yeah, by beingaround all that, that's what I'm saying.
That's when my brother he was goingto school with these guys. My
brother was playing with these guys,and he was beating these guys. But
my brother he just was like,I mean, you know how you get
fall by the sway. He didn'tget caught up in games or nothing like
that. He just fly, youknow, he could play you're not.

(18:07):
Some guys got it and they justdon't pursue it. They just started kicking
it with the girls and stuff likethat. And so still exactly the girls
coming to play and he started beinga ladies man and blah blah blah.
Yeah, but he could play.I mean, come on, Larry,
let's play all right, you know, watching them, and that's how that's

(18:27):
and that's what I was saying,like, that's how I would get in
the game because somebody was later didn'tshow up and they threw me the right
field. And that's how I learnedhow to play all the positions because I
was kind of tall. I waslike about five six, five seven,
but you know, real skinny,scrowny. But I wasn't afraid. And
he was like, man, youknow, brother, he can play a

(18:48):
little bit. And that's how Ilearned how to play all the positions.
And so with that, I knewI could get drafted. But like I
said earlier, the thing was theprotocol is the college, you know as
high school college, and then professionalbaseball if so, if so, it
beat. So what happened is that, Okay, you get drafted or you're

(19:08):
on the radar. We got allthese scouts coming U. Bill Brick,
you know, God rest his soul. He's passed. He the guy that
came out and scouted us for thePittsburgh Pirates, him and Art Stewart,
and but Bill Brick was the onethat was pretty much communicating with us and
with our coach a lot, becausehe was like, he was on us.

(19:30):
I'm talking about he was on usto the point where, dude,
the Pirates drafted three of us offone team high school team and it has
never been done before again in Chicago. Ye. So, and I went
to send me in high school andthat was in nineteen eighty four when I
graduated. Terrence Smith he's signing.He's the only one signed. Gerald Ingram

(19:51):
he went to West Kentucky and Iwent to Jackson State. Now granted we
all was high recruited. But withthat, my mom, you know,
doing my mom was my agent anddoing all the negotiations. She was like,
well, we're going to see whatthey're offering. And then I've got
Steve's Steve Zucker, Jim McMahon agent. He would never forget him, Zucker,

(20:15):
Steve Zucker. I met him andhe was doing my negotiated with my
with my mom with the pirates,and my mom said, well, if
you're this good in high school,you're gonna go to college and they're gonna
draft you again out of high school, I mean out of college in three
years. She said, we're notgonna tell him, but you're gonna go
to college. And then I allowedyou to sign the contract because you'll be

(20:38):
a young man and you'll be alittle bit more prepared for life. And
I said, yes, man.So with that being said, all through,
you know, we're just playing andjust going on as our way.
So I ain't nothing to say anyway. But uh, and I technically I
didn't know. I knew there wasan idea of getting drafted, but I
didn't know because I got drafted inthe fifth round and I was pretty good

(21:00):
money back out of high school.Yes, so yeah, with that,
so that gave more you know,negotiating power for colleges. And so with
that, my coach I was gonnago to Southern University, which was the
Swack because he told me I wasgoing to come in and start as a
freshman period. He was the onlycoach and I believe his name was mccore.

(21:22):
He was there with one of myteammates before me, who was a
left handed pitcher. He didn't getdrafted, but he was going up on
the radar in college because he hadjust won Swack Rickey of the Year.
And I was like, yeah,I'm gonna follow his league, go down
there and play. So what happened. Jackson State coach came up and I
was away playing in the Michigan IllinoisAll Star Game, and they him and

(21:48):
my mom and my high school coachbroke the deal. If he's going to
sign us, he's gonna have totake two of us. And I told
him, I said, I'm notsigning. If I'm not going to be
starting as a restaurant, I mightas well signed a professional contract and go
on. And he was like,well, my shortstop, Julius McDougall.
That was in nineteen eighty four.He was starting shortstop. He was with

(22:10):
Marvin Freeman, as Marvin Freeman wasfrom Chicago, so they they both got
drafted. Marvin went in the secondround and Julius went in the third round
by the Cubs. And I said, well, that says right there,
he got coming there and start orI'm not. And so they worked out
the deal and I came in.He said, the best man win the
job. I said, well,darn ain't the best man. It was

(22:30):
like, you can still pick him. I was like, I don't care
about the competition. I'm not sittingon a bench and I'm not red shirting
period, you know. And theywas settled. He like, you know,
I got down there and he becausehe never saw me play calf and
all these yeah, so these guys, you know, they recruiters. But

(22:51):
he didn't come up to meet me. But I was away playing. So
I was like, you already knowmy story, coach. All you gotta
do is just see me play.And he was like so overtaken with my
confidence because I was a little lotmore mature because of my older brothers,
and that was just a sign ofyou know, just being raised. You
know. So with that, that'show I got to Jackson State. Sounds

(23:15):
like, you know, that's agood thing, like you said, because
you see that. You know thisguys go from high school right to professional
baseball, right, you're a lotof money, especially nowadays, with no
structure, right, And your momwas telling you that that's the structure she
was she basically she's been saying that, hey, you're not mature enough yet
to handle going away right at thatAt that point, right, she wants
you to go, and I'm sureshe wanted to. The education process was

(23:38):
probably part of it as well.Right, you're gonna I want you to
go to probably go to school.I want you to go to school so
you're better, better educated for whatthe world's gonna have for you, and
still play baseball. Right and stillso being away from home doing that,
how how did that affect you atall? Oh? That made me.
That made me a man. Yes, period. I mean you coming from

(23:59):
Chicago going down to Mississippi, Jackson, Mississippi where they hung Emmettil for whistling
at a white girl at fourteen yearsold. Jackson. Emmettil was from Chicago
and he was down there visiting hisKim folks. He's fourteen, so we
already knew the story. So whenI got down there, that was like
a time walk. Man. Imean you you can't you can't even famine

(24:22):
that as a black man to leaveChicago and then go down there and then
be more segregated with all the stuffthat's going on Jim Crow and all the
thing. It was like I feltlike I was watching one of those old
movies, To Kill a Marking Birdall over again, dude, and and
just couldn't like go nowhere. Butrealizing that you're you're a black boy,

(24:47):
you you know, and you're you. You can't go you can't do certain
things that white people can do.And I was like eighteen years old,
and I was like wow, AndI was like, so I gotta act
like them. I got o.Do you know? How do you live?
You know? Yeah? I gofrom freedom to to to slavery again

(25:07):
at eighteen, Like I can't,come on, man, you can't make
this stuff up. You know?Did your mom? Did your mom ever
had that conversation with you of ofknowing that you were going to Jackson State,
of knowing hey, or just beprepared for this, you know,
mentally mentally and the mental stuff canwear on you physically. So did she
Did she have that conversation with yougoing knowing you were going there? No,

(25:30):
she she had it, but shedidn't. It's it's the conversation is
within. The conversation got you,and so it's implied that you better understand
where you're heading. Yes, Andwhen my grandfather been from Tennessee and My
grandmother been from Louisiana. She alreadyknew it, but she can't tell it
to me from a She's telling metook me from a parent inside a woman's

(25:53):
side. And my stepfather he wasfrom Mississippi, so he never had the
conversation with it. But that's whyhe was from Mississippi up north in Chicago.
So the history and life is there. You're reading it and you're learning
it, but experiencing it. It'snight and day. So and that's what

(26:14):
I think they wanted you to do, isn't it. Yes, that's exactly.
Yeah, that's what she wanted meto experience life by going down south.
And I mean it was not itwas its period. It's going away.
I mean I had all the bigwhite schools to the universities, and
every time I saw the baseball pitcher, they only had like one or two
black guys on the team. AndI'm like, okay, only one guy's

(26:36):
playing. Why the other guy ain'tplaying if he's that good, But he's
on the team so he can bea roommate. Come on, okay,
they one schools. Dude, inthe eighties, you getting ready to go?
I'm I mean, I ain't aboutto name drop. But these was
Big Ain't who's no longer Big eight, normal Diesel, what you know,

(26:56):
all the SEC schools. And thenyou know they're recruiting because I got drafted,
you know, and they like thiskid's gonna be off the chart,
blah blah blah. And but it'slike when you get there, they're like,
you're black, You're a Negro.And it's like, Okay, I
can play the big I can playthe game, but you're not playing me
because I'm black, because I'm aNegro. What is this? You can

(27:18):
draft me, you can sign me, but you can't play me. You
sit me on the bench. Andthat right there, keV was the most
important thing that an eighteen year oldfrom Chicago can ever, I'm talking about
me, ever experience in life,because when I got there, I felt,
dude, I didn't. It didn'teven feel like it was real life,
man, really, I mean Igot off the train. Come on,

(27:42):
I'm leaving Chicago. I'm leaving thisbig old downtown Chicago, al Capone
all this stuff and big Union station. I get to Jackson, Mississippi.
It's the train station like a busstop. Bro. The Boa LEAs station
was right there and the bus stationwas right there. It's all at one

(28:03):
stop. And I'm going like,what is this? You know, Like,
I mean, I wasn't laughing.I was just shocked. I was
like, and then he come to, uh, he come up. He
can't make this stuff up, man, He coach, ask somebody pick us
up, Me and my god,and we're like, we both come up

(28:26):
to the chamber now fifteen in themorning. We left at six and six
thirty at night and we woke upto this. I was like, Man,
did we dreaming of one look atthe right stop off in the right
place exactly. Man, you can'tmake this stop up, man, like

(28:47):
a little were the twilights on orsomething. Man, we couldn't understand the
guy who was talking to us,who was like, what what's what you're
saying? Man, I can't Ican't even imagine two of you. Know.
If whoever picked you guys up,I'm sure it was it was probably

(29:07):
it was a probably younger guy orsomething picking up, yeah, picking up,
picking up two black guys right offthe train, right and center.
And and I'm sure everybody just standingthere staring at you worked there right like
we got our bags, our luggetsand we're just sitting there on the platform

(29:29):
like just like it wasn't It wasn'tthe station like we had to do in
Chicago. It was just like getoff like a bus stop. That's the
best. Was there anything did hesaid? Was there anything colorful said to
him? The interaction wasn't just likehello or it was it just kind of
we was like, uh, Ican't wait, we lost or something.

(29:52):
I couldn't get over. I couldn'tget over the police station and the bus
stop on it. I wasn't evenfast that, let alone somebody picking me
here. But we could laugh aboutit today, But at that time,
dude, that's like I'm telling you, it was. I felt like the
movie The Twilight Though. We're inthe right spot, you know, literally,

(30:18):
and then finally this car comes upand and he's like I forget.
He's like, uh hey there,you know, like you're the boys cargo
And he was like what, Like, I'm looking for coach. I don't
want to get linch, I wantto get taken off. I'm like,

(30:41):
man's were about to get killed.My buddy was like, man, you
I said, Man, what didyou? I said, be cool,
man, we just gonna make shoreman because there wasn't no saild bones.
It wasn't no man, dude.You know, I'm sure there wasn't anybody
there to help you standing two blackguys. You're standing there, standing there
with bags. Man. And sohe finally came and said, well,

(31:03):
I went coach. I went coachBrad and from Johnson State. I was
like, oh okay. My heartwas like okay, okay, yeah,
that broke the ice. He didn'thave enough room fire luggage. Man.
Oh that would have been something ifhe'd left one of you there, take
one of the time to get yourback. Oh my goodness. It was.
He hadn't called another guy. Iwas like, we can't take a

(31:25):
taxi. You know, I'm fromChicago. What he gonna called somebody else?
Man? You kept me seriously likeI'm gonna call my homeboy. Like
what I'm like, Man, it'sjump into taxis. Oh Man, that
that heat that alone, you know, like what, oh my good right

(31:45):
right, That's what I'm thinking.Yeah, I decided to come to here.
I couldn't have went to any anybig university in the world. I
mean, man, I was likewow, you know, like I was
just like, man, we signedman, we're going here. Wait till
we see the school. We didn'teven take a college trip cab and I'm

(32:13):
not looking. I'm straight up,bro, you cannot make this up.
And I was like all I wasthinking was just all the whole conversations now
with my mom was just coming throughmy mind, like man, you know,
just like you're gonna grow up,You're gonna become a man. And
I was like, wow, thatmoment I became a man. So when

(32:36):
you finally got a chance to callyour MoMA, was the first thing you
said to it? Man? Iwas like, man, I think I
picked the wrong school. I'm homesick. I'm ready to come home, all
right, bro. It was.I was like, look, I ain't
even registered. We go somewhere else. Somebody else sney this is I told

(33:02):
her. I was like, man, I'm coming back on We even told
registers, I said, I ain'tregistered him. Then I got on campus
many to the dormitory. I waslike, wow, it was like a
big high school man with dormitories,you know, the campus and I was
just going like, man, thisain't like what I saw on TV.
You know, like you know theother colleges and stuff. You know you're
Big ten. You're looking at Michiganbecause I had all them schools interested me

(33:27):
signing me, you know, Illinoisand Michigan, Indiana, all the big
ten schools. You know. I'mright there in the area and I'm like,
yeah, I want to go toone of these schools. But they
wasn't gonna play me. They talkedabout maybe I had the red shirt.
They wasn't big on freshman's coming inand started. But after seeing that,
I was like, man, Idon't know, you know, you know

(33:47):
you that red shirt sounding pretty good. And I'm getting off that train,
getting on train in August and it'shot and human down there, and you're
out there's a spy hot. Itwas yeah, knocked you out, hot,
bro, I'm talking about you.Stand up, man, this slap
you down. Yeah. I havenever felt that kind of heat. Man.

(34:10):
Man, God almighty. And howlong did it take you to kind
of get acclimated all that? Man? It took me. It took me
a while, dude. I'm serious, man, I mean after finally talking
to coach, I mean we battlefor the first before, but I just
man, I did not register.I'm serious. I was like, literally,

(34:32):
like, no, I'm transferred.Oh b It was like so like
the kid. The kid didn't wantto get out of the carm here going
to the mall. No, Iain't getting out. I'm gonna sit right
here in my pouch. I'm notman. He come over, man,
Man, dude, I'm telling you. It took a week and a half
of man before because we got thereon the fifteenth. Registration had to be

(34:54):
about the twenty second of the twentythird, So I used up all time
all that I didn't read to thefinal day, dude, and he was
every day are you gonna? Areyou gonna register? And you're still like
nah, ready for this? Iwas like, man, I think I

(35:15):
think I should signed a contract likemy buddy. That's like nah, you
know, like nah. But andthen this, I mean, even after
they showed me the field care ohmy laundry, bro, I said this,
this, this can't be the field. I was like, our part

(35:36):
district back home was better than this, the high school field we played on,
it was better than this. Man. I was like, this is
the field, man, Bro,you're talking about the rude awakening. Man.
I learned, Man, I learnedwhat slavery was about for real,

(36:01):
Bro, I'm gonna keep it onehundred. Oh. Man, Bro,
I'm telling you, every old everyold movie, every old everything came to
me, Man, all at once. In the first two weeks. Man,
I was just like, now,I mean, I can't even I

(36:22):
still couldn't need It took it theman. It was the fact of being
homesick. It was just like this, this is how people really live,
and I couldn't. It took ittook over, man, the whole fall
for me to get acclimated. Theonly thing that distracted me was that I
was going to class and we hadfall baseball. But after that it was

(36:45):
pitch black and it was hot thatwe had to wake up and do that
all over again. Everything you werelooking forward to the winners in Chicago,
you were getting one the Jackson Man. Man, Bro, I'm just like,
Man, I'm just Man. Ittook the whole fall. It's but

(37:09):
once you got acclimated to all ofit, that motivates You're like, all
right, what do I need todo to get out of here? Yeah?
Three years? It's gonna be along three years if I can't figure
unless the draft rules changed it rightthat we still had to be your j
you had to go three years ifyou transfer. Once you play, you
had the red shirt. It wasn'tthat less stuff to look at it today.

(37:30):
So that's why I was like reallysaying, like no, I'm not
I'm not. No, I'm gettingout of this before we get And he
called my mom. I'm telling you. He called my mom in the office
and we we you know, wewe passed the phone back and forth,
and she was like, you knowwe had we had the conversation over the

(37:52):
phone. She was like no,She was like, you're not coming back.
Man, man, I'm just myheart dropped. I mean, I
did everything but cry. I dideverything but cry. I was like,
yes, man, you know,coach knew. Coach knew. I was
like, because southern wasn't like Louisianawasn't like Mississippi Southern University, Dude,

(38:15):
it was it was born like metropolitana little bit. It was. It
was southern. It was country,but it was not country Mississippi. It
was like what Dion Sanders saw whenhe went there. Yeah, it was
worse. It was worse. ButI was there, what what you know

(38:37):
looking at all this stuff? Whatis coach telling you? Just? Yeah,
coach, I played on better stuffback in the hood on these fields.
He didn't want to play in field, did you at that point?
No, And I was just startingthe short stop. Yeah, I'll go
to the outfield. Man. Iwas like, I don't even want to
play. I told him, Idon't even want to play. I don't

(39:00):
even want to play, man.I just told him flat that's the first
time I ever really talk about giving. The only thing helped me going is
I wanted to get to the majorleagues. That's it. And that's that's
the conversation you had and kept goingafter. That motivated you, right,
that was a motivation to get youto go. Well, you can't get

(39:22):
off, can't you. The motivation, like I'm already motivated to get to
the league is you get drafted.But I'm talking about it was like I
can't get past how long I wasgoing, you know, the three years,
three years of this. I wasonly weeks now on that part.

(39:43):
Man. I was like, justoh lord, oh my laundry. Man.
I was just I mean, likeI said, she said, I
couldn't come back home. I waslike, you know, I was still
stuck on that. That's why ittook me a whole week and a half
to register blood me home. Youdown here, you got chuck it up.
And then uh Lloyd McClinton, whoplayed for the Pirates, his nephew

(40:06):
was there and he had read shirtyso he was a couple of years older
than me. He like, webecame buddies. He was like the one
leading me, and he was like, yeah, my uncle playing bad.
I saw that's your un blah.But he's from Indiana, so he kind
of like because I was just justme and my guy from seeing it was
just us. And so then wefound out there was a few people from
Indiana, but they weren't on it. They weren't playing. They was,

(40:29):
you know, on the bench.And I'm going like this, you know
they bring all the northern guys andsit them on the bench and act like
all the Mississippi guys better than us. Oh man, it was a rockets.
It was man. It was racismon racism. Man. I never
faced black racism before. Yeah,I dealt with white racism up north,

(40:52):
you know where we stayed to ourside. And you're like, that's why
we came. That's why I wasn'ta Cub fan because growing up, we
wasn't lowed to go to the Cubbsgames. I mean, you look on
the TV. Jack Brickow, weonly saw him on the TV. It
wasn't no black people going to theCubs game. Let's stay worked at Wrigley
Field. That's why we were allwhite Sars fans. Now you tell me,

(41:16):
I have to deal with this,this Shenanigans. You turned the red
and then the tomato bro Oh thatis funny, dude, just hearing this,
the stories and stuffs growing up downthere. Man, you grew up
in Philadelphia, see, come ondown shoot, Yeah, I just I

(41:37):
mean you, I love hearing thesestories, the stories of guys that I
had to land on Hudson here talkingabout it's about just being he's from South
Carolina. I mean, the samething, you know, And it's and
that's the thing though, it's it'skind of how it just in Great said,
growing up, we grew up black. Why didn't matter. We just
were playing. It didn't matter whatwe were doing, right, you know

(41:58):
that, right? And you hearthese stories reas of that, and I'm
then you're people going that that stuff'snot right, and then you're I'm living
it. But then that, likeyou said, then you saw the black
on black race of the stuff going, and you're going, oh gosh it,
just what do I do now?I gotta get out again? Where
am I gonna go? You hearabout Jeff Stone's stories. You hear about

(42:19):
all these guys in the mind ofthe egues. Now they was just run
with no shoes on and get drafted, I mean, get signed. And
I was like, what you likewhat? They climbed you in the corn
field, like I caren't you evenimagine that? I can't even imagine that.

(42:40):
He was running a sixty three inthe sixty like a six three six
two. Dude, say, man, you faster than the night I'm running
the six five sixty six in thesix And I'm like what, I'm like

(43:01):
bad. I'm telling you, bro, you can't make it up. And
it's all fuition today. That's what'sso sad about it. Twenty first sent
you that was in the eighties andwe're in twenty twenty three, and this
it lied dormant so much that didn'texplode like we're in the nuclear war today.
Bro, I'm telling you, andonly only reason why we're able to

(43:25):
get a loan today is because it'sall out. Now that's it, and
we ain't getting a loan. It'sthis you go alone to get a loan.
And that's the beauty of the baseballside of it. We see everything,
every race, every national can weplayed with right, yes, yes,

(43:50):
and it never seemed to It seemslike baseball is the most integrated when
it comes as far as the demographics. Yes, yes, right, I
mean, and they're all right,and it's just people but hearing stories because
we can joke about it, right, But but I mean these kind of
conversations we have, Uh, CurtisWilkerson always talks about stuff like this,

(44:15):
man, he just and he justhe's like, whatever, man, I
just bust shot. But it's it'sit's funny hearing this story because hearing these
stories and because it truly happens,and then and then we had this conversation.
It's just you talk about it thenand how what But back then you
weren't laughing, right because you didn'tknow any better. And now these stories

(44:37):
and people know it wasn't like people, yes it was you have first hit
knowledge of it, you know,and it's in hearing about it. And
because that's why we're laughing and It'slike, man, you can't make this
stuff up. Dude. This ain'tno uh Jackie Robinson story. You know

(44:58):
it's you know this, Oh it'strue events. No, they just did
that Hollywood style. Dude. Jackiewent through worth stuff than that. Come
on now, but they got aHollywood it up right right they Yeah,
they wrote a script for that,bro. Yeah, come on now,
No this think the five heartbeats.You know what I'm saying. Oh my

(45:21):
godness, yeah, lord, man, I'm telling you this stuff. Man,
boy, I tell you what itwas. It was the worst three
years of my life. But itturned out to make me the man I
am today because like my mom said, you will grow up. I grew

(45:42):
up. I became a young blackman dealing with life. And and with
that said, I mean the latinI mean the latinos came after you get
signed a contract here, and thatthat's another whole story. We ain't even
we don't even, we don't eventook a SIP award on that, you

(46:04):
know. But dealing with Mississippi anddealing with the s SEC, all the
white schools we played, Mississippi State, New Orleans, all the LSU,
dealing with all the racism. Theywould call us everything but the N word.
Cool but black cat, everything butterthey called us, and we man,

(46:28):
we own their campus playing them,Will I play Will Clarkon pow Merrow.
I was a freshman starting, Iwas ranking. It didn't make a
difference. You could play, butyou can't play with us. Man.
I'm three for three with I'm raking. I'm like going, I'm hitting clip
Brentley and Bobby think Pin. Theyclose us. He coming from Rakefield,

(46:50):
coming in throwing ninety five. I'mdrilling him. I'm They're like, who
is this black kid? They're likea Chicago kid. The Pirates drafting them
when they was like oh okay,because we never know nobody to hit like
this or play like that. Willcome up and put his arm on me
and stuff like and talk. Man, I was just okay, Like really,
I'm a freshman man and I'm goinglike, okay, this this is

(47:13):
life, this is like I mean, I still couldn't grasp it. Man.
I was just like, okay,because I'm playing against Saint Rita white
boys up and you know the Catholicschools in Chicago, they were predominantly white.
All the Catholic schools because then theygot money. They cost ten grand
a year and if a black personor a minority went there, you had
to get a scholarship. So weweren't thinking about that, you know.

(47:36):
So my school was Black Semon andDunbar. They vocational schools, good educational
schools which taught us a trade andyou learned the work stood as you got
out of high school. Like Isaid, we weren't going to college like
that. Lets you had good academics, but we had good sheep medals,
plumbing, Weldon, all of themachine drafting, all the mccan because out

(48:00):
of body or anything that you wantto go into workfield, you got a
job. We had job employments thatwould uh prepare as soon as we grays
wait out of high school. Wehad jobs or lined up for us like
we were in college. And sothat for you were more educated and more
uh professional. Yeah, I'll dealwith on on on all that. And

(48:22):
just like you said, it's amazinghow baseball once you know, like you
said, you see a lot ofwhether you know, guys putting other guys
dow until they realize they see thisguy can play right, and then it
seems like it seems to almost like, do you belong on the level?
Right, Like you said, you'rethe predominantly black school, right, and
you're playing against these schools and allof a sudden, who's this guy?
And then all right, maybe hecan maybe he is on our level,

(48:43):
right, And that seems to becausebaseball players we draw a line, don't
We just draw the circle? Wedraw a line small and but once were
but once we realize you can tellthat line. Did you gotta get into
circle? Yes, then then youdo it. And I think that's what
you're talking about, us being atthose schools and everything else. So and
it, like you said, youhad to grow up in a hurry eighteen

(49:05):
years old. Yes, you're downin the Deep South and you've got to
grow up and it and it helpedyou though, right, It it made
you who you are today. Yes, so you're those those three years of
of of fun you had getting outand then finally getting into pro ball and
playing and um getting you know,going through the minor leagues sometimes can't be
any just as bad, right itwas. Some of it was worse.

(49:29):
But after coming from Mississippi, Iwas prepared. Yeah, yeah, I
was. The towns that you playedin because I've heard of some of those
old schools. Man, come on, man, there was some of them
towns we was playing the man,Man, it wasn't fifth. I ain't
even think people was. I ain'tman, man, I ain't even think

(49:50):
the town was real. Man,I mean we was going to South Carolina,
was going to Savannah. Excuse me, making Georgia Augusta, Georgia,
um Alabama. See what was uha ball? I first went to Watertown,
and then when we went to aball, I didn't go to low.
I went straight to uh how aball? I didn't go to lower.

(50:14):
My little a ball was Watertown,but making Georgia League was the second
level. But I went straight fromWatertown to Carolina League, to Lynchburg,
all over there to the yeah tothe river Confederate sticks like they got to
c Anyding, Lynchburg, Salem,uh Charlotte. Man ru Man, I

(50:40):
was like, man, I didn'tgot teams over here. Man, I
couldn't even know I was to do. When we got to them places,
they were talking, let's go eat. I say, I'm good. If
they had looked that was some nice. That was I'm nice. That really
literally literally, if it wasn't pieceathat was being delivered if we didn't eat,

(51:06):
I ate snickers in the baggage chipsgood. And that was only from
the hotels like right to the vendingmachines or whatever period, you know,
because they tell us, well there'sa breakfast, you know, we can
go and get man, I'm notgoing there. I hate whatever they bought
to the stadium, you know,I'm not good. I am. People

(51:30):
took get us in it these threedays. Put us back on the bus
to get us back to our place. Oh my goodness. And that's why,
that's why a lot of the lineguys was going to jail. Dude,
they was, you know, messwith them the girls down there.
Yeah. And the country boys didn'tplay that. They carry their guns on
the trucks. Oh my goodness.And then they speak the language and you've

(51:55):
been around and understood it. Yeah. And they Spanish, yeah yeah.
And them girls drunk and they't likejust man, you better lead them girls
alone one even man, they weren'teven a thought playing through them things.

(52:15):
And then we've been spring training andthen ball ball instruction, the ball hearing,
the stories they like, preparing us. We ain't know they were preparing
us spring training once you make thatclub, don't go to here and they
let you and the man you Man, I'm like, man's this illegal?

(52:38):
This one you got to go throughto get to the major leagues. I
was in, man, I wastalking. You're talking about prepared after leaving
Mississippi. I was focused. Yeah, I was in the zone, like,
dude, I gotta get out ofhere. Ain't no money down here.
It's racism down here. I'm nottrying to die down here. And

(53:00):
it just but like you said,you were prepared for it from the time
you were and like I said,that carried you to where you are today,
right, just helped you become whatyou've done. Played and played in
the big major leagues for those forfive six years you did, and ye
and leading up to it and everythingelse. I mean, it's like I
said, the story you can tellbecause of what people but that was.

(53:22):
No, it's exactly what it was. Because you lived through it, you're
able to and understand it. Soyou so going through all this, Like
you know, you talked about thosethose early nineties, the Phillies teams you
played on, you played with somethere were some real real rip yes,
but there were some guys that werejust they were off the wall group right

(53:42):
through that whole Yeah, and thosestories and everything else, but um,
you know, just talk about thata little bit, just being with those
those nineties Phillies teams and what itmeant finally finally getting to the big league
level and understanding and seeing those guysyou probably saw in the SEC and everything
else and playing with them on thesame field. Well, first I was
with Barry Bonds. They got draftedwith me, but I didn't sign.

(54:04):
Barry signed in like eighty six,well eighty I got drafted eighty four.
Barries two years, three years olderthan me, so he was at Arizona
State, so he was already signed. I think about eighty five eighty five
Barry signed, I think, Andthen when I got down there, he
was just not coming up to theshow. I remember him with a sledge

(54:27):
hammer. They was like, thiskid's here, this kid's dad, And
I was like, yeah, hewent to Arizona State. He went through
something, the stuff you know fromthe Arizona State ray system over there,
but he didn't go through the stuffbecause I put it to you, like
this, the Joe kids with blackguys go to white schools. He'd be
like he either eat the whitest blackkid I ever know, you know what
I mean? I mean he lookhis dad was bad. Was Bobby Bonds,

(54:58):
you know, granted out. Butwe could say that because we I
know him, you know, weknow him. It ain't like I'm talking
behind this back of nut. Andwhen we was, yeah, we was
a spretty train. He was like, dude, you don't even sound black,
you know, like just men,when are you talking to that?
Man? It was like, mantoo, what you behind the wall?

(55:20):
Dude? We can't even figure whoyou out? And that was a joke.
So he used to get fissed offbecause he wouldn't come around us.
Dude no more, you know,because he got this cup of coffee.
And I mean, like I say, you know how some of the big
leaguers come over and yeah, youknow, but Barry was still young and
so and yeah he's like I'm saying, yeah you're stu, Yeah you can

(55:44):
play. But you know, hey, the ribbing stars, you know,
we all we all hey, weall crabs now, you know, and
we know you're gonna get your firstWe know you're gonna get a good look.
But it was just like like whatit was so now when I signed
it A seven, Barry got hislittle cup of coffee, and then Jeff
King comes in from Texas and he'swith Miss Universe. So we're like,

(56:07):
man, ain't no young guys gettingup there. It's all veteran guys.
Jim Leland comes over and he bringshis Bobby. But then from the white
side they get that handy Van Slife. Then r J. Jerry das Gary
Gary renas R. J. Reynolds, and we're looking at this major league
Ross said, We're like, okay, man, we're gonna make it.

(56:28):
You know what's the It's like,well, you know what, it's thirty
two clubs out here, they allscouting us. Somebody gonna give me an
opportunity. And that was my goal. That was my mentality, and that
was my plan. And once Istarted meeting the former major leagues who I
watched how McCray was our hitting instructor, and I just started putting it in

(56:52):
the work. Calv And I meanit was like whenever they would saying be
here, I was bam. Iwas there thirty minutes early. I was
there before everybody got there. Iwas the last one leaving because, like
I said, that mentally to beingin Mississippi never left me. So I'm
like, I'm not gonna I'm notgonna be out work. They're not gonna
say that I'm lazy or a thought. They're not gonna have no excuses.

(57:15):
I don't care what they say aboutme. They won't say that I was
never on time or ever ever lateor didn't work period. That was it.
And so with that being said,you know the game. Jeff Cox
was my first manager, and hewhat he told me was this, and

(57:37):
I draw to that. We hada lot of form of major leagues when
we were coming in and they somegonna take a liking to you, and
some of the other guys who didn'tplay pro ball that they didn't like you.
They were going to bash you inthem coaches meeting and and Jeff Cox
told me when we used to beon the road and he used to show

(57:57):
us the reports on what we didand the game reports and blah blah blah.
And he was like, yeah,he said, but he said,
that's good. That's what you need, he said, But it's the other
thing, how you carry yourself.And he was like always saying carry yourself
professionally. And I was like,yeah, okay, bam, and that
right there. It never left me. And with that, that's why when

(58:21):
I got around them big leaguers,I would just be mum's the word,
mouth shut, eyes open, earsopen, and just let him come.
And that's how it was. Andso I put a lot of fear in
them big leaguers man because I didn'tjoke with him, I didn't play with
him. And I was like,it's five or six positions on that major
league roster, and I'm going forone of them outfield positions because they moved

(58:45):
me from the nfield to the outfield. Yeah. So I was like,
okay, I can play. Butsee I knew I could play short,
second, third, first catch inthe outfield. Okay, this is the
baseball. Yeah. So with thatbeing said, that was my approach.
I signed that contract. Yeah Igot there. I outworked all of them.

(59:06):
Whenever they bought us over to thebig league. I was out working.
They was like, who is thiskid? And he was like,
oh that's a I was poor thatwhat would happen? I got drafted at
the fifth round in high school.I was projected for the number one pick.
We had a conference game with MississippiValley State and the kid bought a
gun to the game Mississippi Valley andwe got into a team fight. I'm

(59:31):
pretty sure you heard about I don'tknow if you heard about it. But
they tried to label me. Theytried to label me and said I bought
the gun and that blew my stock, That blew my draft stock down.
Yeah, we had a fight.I got suspended because they're gonna say all
because of the team broad But theguy he started to fight right on the

(59:51):
field, a double player or whatever, and he tried to kick me.
He did. He kicked me inthe chest so the face, but I
threw my arm up the line dryhit the second I was on first throw
the ball. I made it backsafe and then the overthrow went up up
up the line went towards the dugout, up the field. I got
up the run. He stepped,he spiked my hand and I hit his

(01:00:14):
hand off and then he tried tokick me in the face and then boom.
That was the fight. So webrawl, and when the brawl was
kind of settled down, he wentto the dug out, got a gun,
came back shot a two times inthe air as if he was looking
for me to shoot me. Reallyyeah, I forgot his name, but
he warn't number five. And whenhe did that, I mean Jackson.

(01:00:37):
Everybody was at the game, security, a police, everybody was hit the
ground. And so then he wasleft standing up looking like a clown with
a gun in his hand. Andso it was like that years number five,
number five, That's what I keptsaying, number five. So the
teammates kind of surrounded him to acoat over him because he was in his
uniform. Yeah, I don't knowwhat how, dude, I don't know

(01:00:58):
how he got away or whatever,maybe because you know, they threw the
whatever. But they stopped the gamebecause that was the second game. That
was a double headed We'd already runthe first game. So now there the
first story goes out West Chamber andbrings the gun to the game, shoots
the game. What and that rightthere, that's right there that lets me
know that my status in life.It was kind of like the Alan Iverson

(01:01:22):
story and Randy Moss story. Andsince I was the draft pick, they're
going to implement me with a gunand they you know the story. They
don't come back and literally apologize,but they said Apolot, but the story
don't go out like that. Sofor that moment, and that was my

(01:01:44):
draft gear. That was my draftof my junior year. And the pirates
had already, you know, theywas like, you know, everybody's I
was going first round. And thatright there, keV, that hurt me.
That's the first time I really brokedown and cried because I knew my
stock. It was labeling me likeI was a Chicago kid, Gang Affillion

(01:02:06):
and all that, and that wasnever, never, cad never. That
hurt me so bad that my coach, you know, I felt my coaches
in back me the way I feltthat he should have backed. I said,
coach, I said, they said, like I had a gun.
I said, coach, you didn'teven have a conference news conference to denounce
it. We like, you know, we know you didn't have a gun.
I was like, coach, it'sall on the news. That's that's

(01:02:27):
open enough to the highlight. Yeah, you know. So, but that
right there, that was that thatwas the defining as going before signing my
contract, and that dropped my draftstatus. And so that's why that's what
it made me say, never beout worked and always stay professional. And
that's what Jeff Cox helped me with, and that right there. They tried

(01:02:50):
to say a few things when wegot instructional ball in the spring training,
but the Pirates nipped that instantly inthe book and say, don't you never
bring that. Nobody ever bringing thatup about him again. And that's why
a lot of people don't even knowabout it. Only people who know it
what happened. You know, Ihad some stories. It ain't very but

(01:03:10):
it ain't not that because I wasnever convicted. I never had the thing
felling. So I was grateful forthe Pirates the way they handed it.
But they drafted me fourth round.But I worked my way up to become
the number one prospect in the organization. And when jeff Leland, when they
was making thee when I made theross after the strike, jeff Leland wasn't

(01:03:34):
gonna bring me up. So theydid the irrevocable waivers and they forgot Larry
Doherty forgot that it changed in thestrike here, and that's how I got
picked up on waivers and got tothe big leagues with the Phillies. Got
you and you're right, so thatscar that right, He said, the
damage has already been done right's alreadybeen said. The scars, the labels
already there regardless of what. Andyes, you know they can't backtrack,

(01:03:57):
and that's he said, Well anapology, well said, it's an apologies.
You can say you're not doing anythingto help me out, but like
you said, it's just part goesback to your character, how you were
and how you are today of youknow, of what that led you to
be able, you know, beable to play and be successful five six
years playing in the big leagues andthen and then after just getting into you

(01:04:18):
know, business relationships, the stuffthat you do to be able to help
right from from what we've learned,that's that's what we're trying to do.
If we can help one person,we've done our We've done our job.
So, you know, so talka little bit about your book that you
wrote, just just just briefly.I know we've we've we hammered on a
lot of what you've been through andjust you know, what kind of inspired
you to write this book and whatwas the what was the premise of of

(01:04:40):
doing it? Well, the bookis uh just about you know, I
mean, you know what people alwayssay, hey man, you ought to
write a book you know, man, you blah blah blah, and it
just came along. So I justsaid, well, okay, yeah,
I'll just do it, just todo it, just to see, you
know, like if I can doit, and like, okay, I
can do it short to the point, see ideas. And I did it

(01:05:01):
on a whim. But I didn'twant nobody to be trying to tell my
story and you know, make itHollywood stuff like that. No, I
just wanted to tell a story,tell the beginning of it, and get
it out there so that you canhear from me and then it can help

(01:05:24):
me as a writer. Helped meprofessional league because we already know that once
we're playing sports that the day ofretirement is going to come. But what
are you going to do after that? You know, what can you do?
Can you better yourself? Continue yourself? Me? I never wanted to
work for anybody else. I mean, I didn't mind being involved in professional
sports because I know if I'm beinginvolved in professional sports, I know what

(01:05:45):
comes along with that, like beingan ambassador, being a mentor and getting
paid for it. And as abusinessman, that was my goal and approach
that if I never made it tothe major leagues. I wanted to be
my own boss, and I've alwayshad and so I've maintained that. And
I know that that not being ableto learn how to manage money because you're

(01:06:09):
not taught it, but being aprofessional athlete. My agents that I've had
had taught me how to use mymoney to make money in things, which
has kept me afloat to day inlife. So the book came about with
that, with conversations. So Iwent out head and did it, and
I put it in an e book. I never put it in a hard
cover because I felt like, youknow, it's my first book, and

(01:06:30):
I don't want to have all theseprinted copies. And then I got to
give it away to where's that.I let it create its own revenue and
let it do what it do andwith what we got going on to day
with internet things of that nature,streaming, people can go online and get
it. And it's only a hundredpages. Yeah, and the book's called
in the game and the game that'sup with that name? Uh, that's

(01:06:55):
you came up with the name ofit. Yes, in the game.
I called it in the game likethe Game of Life, Remember we played
like Monopoly things of that so Ijust put in the game because we're in
life, and life is an adventure, you know, we're on a journey
and we're born to die. Sowith that, I used it. I

(01:07:15):
played it with that. I playedit off with that, with that scenario,
like in the game of baseball,we do this, been in the
game of life, we do this. So I intertwined both of them and
came up with that title. Gotcha, it sounds like it's like you said,
what we've learned from our everything thatwe've been brought up. You know,
how we were raised and people aroundus have kind of molded us to

(01:07:38):
where we are today. Right tobe able to help and to reach out.
And that's all it is, right, that's what this is about.
Just here's the story. You know, here's a person anybody, I said,
one person reads it. You've doneyour job with your book correct,
right to the point. And then, like I said, when I want
to start on volume two, Icould do volume two, but if number
one hasn't taken off, why dovolume two? Yeah? The thing,

(01:08:00):
like you said, it's all aboutLike you said, it's that's all it
is. One person hears it andgo, hey, you know, maybe
that's you know. That's why,because there's always somebody out there that needs
to hear it. It's just amatter of getting it in the right hands,
correct. And that's what you're doingnow, as far as you know,
doing right, doing lessons and everythingelse as well. Right, telling
that story and you know how youlearn who you know, because the game
today is completely changed from when weplayed it. Right, It's it's become

(01:08:21):
a me first mentality, and uh, it's it's kind of hard to watch
sometimes because because of that. Right, the work I don't even want always
see. I can't even now.They always see what's on TV. Right,
they don't see the work that getsput it. They don't see you
at Jackson State down there, right, being a black man in the South
of what you have to deal withmentally, physically, and on top of

(01:08:41):
looking at the baseball field that youhad to play on at that time and
the stuff that you would hear travelingaround doing that. All they see is,
oh, that's why Shanerlin he wason TV. Right, Yeah,
you didn't see the other and that'sand that's I think that's what this generation
misses. The work, the bloodto sweat, the tears that go into
it, and it's and it's hard. It's hard to motivate this generation.
But like you said, we allfigured out what motivation it was to get

(01:09:03):
us to that point, you know, like you said, it was this
field. There's got to be betterthan this. Right. Yes, you
could have quit, You could havequitted any time, but you didn't write
that perseverancy you have And I thinkthat's a word that's probably gone by the
wayside now too. They just thinkthat they have it all right. I
watch it on TV. I automaticallygot better on it as opposed to what
do I need to do? Theydon't ask the questions. They just want

(01:09:25):
they want information being told what todo, yes, and then they can't
put the work in. If that'sthe difference we were We got the information
and we put the work in.They get the information, they like,
I know how to do it?No you don't. You didn't even read
the freaking instructions. How do youknow how to operate the phone? Don't
give you Now? Do you getinstructions with the phone? No more?

(01:09:46):
You gotta google it? Yeah,exactly. It can become the phone guru
here. You can figure out waysto because everybody else they watch hitting online.
Now I can go teach it,right, the stuff they got these
kids standing on baptiboard, swinging waterjugs and swinging they're doing. They got

(01:10:12):
the rings and the gymnastics they're tryingto twist them and everything else. I
mean, what in oh gosh,what in the Sam Elliott is going on?
Oh man, it's can you imagineour girl, our heading coach would
have beating us with that stuff?What are you doing? We could talk

(01:10:34):
for hours on this subject. Well, we have to definitely have to revisit
this one at some point and talkbecause we could talk for hours on the
stuff. That's another that's another wholehour. And that's what I mean.
But I said, I'm glad thatyou're able to teach that and what you've
learned, Like you said, justlife in general, right, And that's

(01:10:56):
that's what it's about. I've gotthree little ones I'm trying to raise and
that, and but it's hard,right, you said, trying to motivate.
I'm like trying to motivate my brothers. I wanted to be better than
my brothers. I wanted to bebetter than the guys on TV. Right,
I want you to be better thanme, but ask me how to
do it. Don't just you knoweverything that's be incentive laden. I know

(01:11:16):
you can have a view. I'mtelling you, Mom's the word, dude,
even if mom's look. I raisedmy five, you know, the
two boys, three girls. Theyall out like you, I've been there,
done that. And it's like andI told him, I said,
you thank me one day if I'mstill alive when you're grown and on your
own. And they do. Theycome back and they was like that because
they tell each other we weren't raisedlike that. Yeah, And that's exactly

(01:11:42):
that's the thank you. Because theworld tells them different that the world.
They're like, no, they knowhow. They all went to college too,
graduated three didn't because I told him, I said, college is not
for everybody. I was like,but you got the grades because I put
you in the school that I knewyou need to be educated. And I've
worked. I saw confic and andmade it, made the opportunity for you.

(01:12:03):
And that's what people don't understand.It's the opportunity. It's it's it's
the line that I always use withClint Eastwood. Um he was in the
movie. He was a drill sergeant. Improvise, adapt, overcome your situation.
Improvise, adapt, overcome your temperation, your situation. So you improvise,

(01:12:27):
you analyze the situation, you adaptto it, and now you overcome
it. And it just I heardthat in the movie that he was a
drill sergeant and they was like,yeah, you know what I'm talking about.
But I mean, but those littlenuggets like that, those are life
things that that we that we canget. That's like that, that's a

(01:12:48):
true statement there, that's a truefact to whereas that you gotta have goals.
Nobody has goals, and if theydo have goals, you got to
put a plan in the action.And they don't understand Michael Jordan of Kobe
Brian. They don't understand. They'relike, oh, those are killers,
there's this and that. No,they're sharing wisdom. But they're sharing their

(01:13:11):
wisdom and their determination. And sonow people want to make a mockery because
Mike took it personal, because Kobetook on the same mentality as Mike,
but he called it mama, andokay, that's what they wanted to be.
Then they accomplished that, dude,do you know they accomplished it.
They wanted to be the best inthe world and they became that. You

(01:13:31):
know, so in a sport.Do you know how hard that is to
do? Yeah, exactly, becauseyou have all the people and they say,
he's telling you can't do it.Yeah. Now I couldn't even just
said I wanted to be the bestbaseball player. But if they don't put
me in the lineup, I can'tshow my baseball skills, yeah, exactly.
And you don't put the work inright, you just don't automatically get

(01:13:55):
put the lineup because you can becausebecause you want to play right right exactly.
But just because you think you boxat me, you can get in
the ring with Ali, right,that's what everybody could box until they get
hit in the mouth. Yeah exactly, until you prove it. And that's
the problem. They don't want toprove it. They just want they wanted

(01:14:15):
gifted to right. Yeah, thatwould happened to name, but that's another
story. But oh my goodness,that's it. That's what'll see. We're
we're professionals. They don't understand aboutwhat a professional is. And that's what
I'm grateful for it. Like yousaid, And in the nineties, I

(01:14:36):
played with Lenny Dyster, Darren Dalton, John Kruk, they was the all
stars on the team. But LennyDyster was my guy because Doc Gooden and
Darryl Strawberry took him under the wings. And then Lenny when I got with
the Fellis, he took me underhis wing and said, I know the
brothers man blah blah blah. Heknew the story, knew the path,

(01:14:57):
he knew that Doc can't have withdot com from in Tampa and has Strawberry
come from and Crenshaw and Ed Davisand them how they grew up out there
in LA and he was playing withthem in the minor leagues and everything.
With the Jackson Mets which is thestate and we used to play the white
schools UH and miss Jackson State.That's where we would play all of the

(01:15:18):
uh the Mississippi State LSUS in NewOrleans. When they came to town,
they didn't play on our campus.They didn't play on that field they played.
We played at the Jackson metsfield.Uh. Now we played all the
other Swack teams on our campus onthat field. But the white schools,
the white universities, they didn't playon them. Geez. That was another

(01:15:45):
boat. Look as Mike said,I took that personal. Yes, oh
my goodness up. But see,when you're born to raise in that neck,
when you're born to raise in Mississippi, you're your culture to that lifestyle.
I'm born to raise in Chicago.I'm courtured to that lifestyle. I

(01:16:08):
ain't saying I'm not able to adaptto it. I'm not saying I'm not
able to improvise and overcome it.But like my mom told me, you
would, you know, improvise,adapt and overcome and become a young man.
And I became a young man ateighteen years old, you know,
straight out of Chicagoo. It broughtyou where you are today. Yes,
sir, I appreciate that, Yes, sir. So so your book people

(01:16:31):
can where can you find the bookon at Amazon Amazon Amazon, Yeah,
kinda h at the Kinder store,Amazon dot com kinda store, and they
can. People can follow you onsocial media where Yeah, they can follow
me a LinkedIn and Twitter. That'sit. I'm not you know, we
got to keep a low proff I'mnot on facebooks like that and not just

(01:16:53):
do LinkedIn professionally and Twitter. It'sentwined together. I mean, I don't
even know how long I'll be onTwitter, you know, we you know,
just going to flow man, Ilinked. Yeah, I'm learning all
that stuff as well too. Sobecause you got all that I had it,
somebody created a uh they tried tosee my identity for Facebook and all

(01:17:15):
that, so I burn account hadto go through all everything on there,
and so I just created a burningaccount and to get it out the way,
and so the behind police finally gotto take it down because Facebook would
not take it down. They putall my baseball cards, so everybody thought
it was me, and I'm like, na, that's not me, you

(01:17:36):
know, no, but you gotpeople liking it and all that, they're
thinking it's you. Yeah, andI don't. I don't like that way.
But so that's why the main reasonwhy I never did you know on
Facebook and Instagram. It's like forgettingyou know, once we almost I'm fifty
seven, we almost sixty years old. I ain't got time to deal with
that, man. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Man, Well, I

(01:17:58):
appreciate you jumping on to that.West. I mean, I have fun
listen to this. Let's see thestories. Like I said, we have
to revisit some of these other storiesas we get down the road and see.
But you know, best of luckwith everything and we'll stay in touch.
And I said, I'll share thiswith you once we get it all
done and everything else. So man, but I appreciate it, and uh,
you know, keep keep fighting agood fight, man, trying to
change it. So I appreciate thoughWest, I appreciate I had the ball.

(01:18:19):
Man, Yes, sir, absolutely, man, we could definitely do
this again. Okay, man,you have a Google that God bless you. Man,