October 13, 2025 • 29 mins
American jazz singer, composer, producer, and arranger Nnenna Freelon joins BIN National News Anchor Andrea Coleman on the latest episode of Leading While Black to discuss her new memoir, Beneath the Skin of Sorrow: Improvisations on Loss. She explores grief, creativity, and how her artistic voice evolved through personal tragedy.
Listen now!
Listen now!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up next on Leading while Black.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
And I know that that woman is not the woman
I am at this moment. Grief has stretched me enjoyful
and very interesting ways.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Words of hope and inspiration. A conversation with jazz great
Nina Free Lawn about her transformative journey with grief and
how she's now helping other black women discover all it
has to offer from the private sector to public life.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
These are the people making a difference in the Black community.
They are Leading Wild Black.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
On the Black Information Network. Hello and welcome to this
month's Leading Wile Black, the Black Information Networks monthly program
spotlighting Black leaders in the fields of entertainment, business, health, sports, politics,
and more. I'm Andrea Coleman. This month, we slow it
down a bit to explore the latest works of seven
times Grammy nominee jazz artist Nina Free Lawn. Nina released
(00:55):
her latest album, Beneath the Skin in March, and later
this month she is set to release a companion book
titled Beneath the Skin of Sorrow and Provisations on Loss.
While being one of the world's greatest jazz singers of
our time. Our conversation today is on the topic of grief,
a topic she is helping many people, especially black women,
explore in a new and invigorating way. So you are
(01:21):
a seven time Grammy nominee who is still creating and
producing beautiful music. Tell us about these latest projects of yours.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Well, thank you for the chance to talk about them.
They are both The book Beneath the Skin of Sorrow
Improvisations on Loss and the album Beneath the Skin are
both born from the same creative breath. The album came
(01:50):
out in March. It is my first project of all
original music. You know, jazz singers often delve into the
The Americans Songbook and songs by Ellington and Billie straight
Horn and you know and others, but this is my
first album of all original music. I really felt it
(02:13):
was time for me, having been in this business for
thirty some odd years, to begin telling some stories of
my own. I've always written, and maybe there's been an
original tune here or there, but this entire project is
turning inward and in my mind it has a decidedly
feminine feel where I am exploring pages for my own book,
(02:38):
for my own metaphorical book of my life. And then
the book is a memoir.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
It is a deeply personal.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Look at at my life, not just my losses, but
also the ways in which joy and sorrow intersect. And
it's also about my life is a jazz musician, how
(03:14):
being a jazz musician has impacted my grief? I really
feel that improvisation, the things I learned, the skills I
learned on the bandstand have helped support and buoy me
in this very very difficult, challenging, joyful, and strange time
(03:36):
since my husband passed. My sister passed in twenty nineteen
and twenty twenty within six months of each other. So
that's sort of the nutshell view.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah. So, and the titles for both you're using references
are you're using the phrase beneath the skin? Where does
that come from? What is it there that you're wanting
us to uncover our discuss whereas you you take us
through both projects.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Wow, that's an awesome question. You know, skin is where
judgment can live. Skin is the surface of things. It's
also protection, it's our largest organ. It's also where we
make decisions on whether we think something is good or
(04:25):
not good. And I wanted to go underneath honestly, you
know that old saying beauty is only skin deep. Yeah yeah, yeah, that.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Old old too.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
The things that live on the skin can give us
a glimpse, but it isn't the whole story, is it.
It's a part of the story. It's the beginning of
the story, or maybe not.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
The story at all.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
The skin of things is like skating on the surface
of a frozen lake. When you go deeper, there's an
entire different universe. They're different layers, and so that's what
these projects explore in the book. I wanted to explore
some of the nuanced, layered aspects of grief. On the surface,
(05:17):
it's sorrow and it's tears and it's missing someone. But
what I have found as I've leaned into my grief
is that there are pockets of joy and humor and
just things that I didn't expect awareness. You know, I
feel like I'm more empathetic as a human inside my grief.
(05:42):
I can understand if someone just isn't feeling like themselves.
I have empathy for that, for the human condition that
we all experience.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, because
you know, grief is one of those things that touches
all our lives at some point in time, and sometimes
it's through the loss of a person. Sometimes it could
be through the loss of something else, you know, some
of us more in eras past or you know, shifts
in life that come unexpected. So I love how you're
(06:17):
leaning into it. How much courage does it take to
do that? I mean, and I say that because you're
doing not only have you done the album and you've
written a book, but you're also doing a podcast on
it that's found great success. So it apparently is a
topic that a lot of us have at least found
to be intriguing.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
You know.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I feel like people would love to have permission to,
you know, lean into their grief, but the culture doesn't
support it. You know, we're given a brief time at
the funeral and then we're sort of given these messages,
subtle and not so subtle. Get over it, you know,
(06:58):
live your life. Just all of these things that push
against really living well. So my podcast Great Grief is
about living greatly through grief. It's not about wallowing in
any particular moment. It's about incorporating grief into the way we.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Live.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
And if you need a moment, take a moment, If
you need to change your lifestyle or what you think
is expected of you, especially black women.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Oh my gosh, we're holding up.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
The whole sky and it's impacting our mental and physical health,
and we don't give ourselves a break to find some
softness and say, you know what, I'm dealing with a lot.
I'm just gonna take care of me here for a minute.
Because if we don't take care of ourselves, then all
(07:53):
of the people that are depending on us will have
to suffer the consequences. So I think it's very kind
and good for us to make ourselves a priority in
our grief, in our joy, and in taking the time
to live fully. So if we feel something, feel it,
(08:13):
and it doesn't matter how long we tell ourselves these
stories that it's been long enough or it's been too long.
And grief is not linear. It can be many, many,
many years since the change or the shift or the
event in time occurred. But grief does not wear a watch,
(08:39):
and she cares not for time pieces of any kind.
She will wait patiently until we turn in her direction.
And for me, it wasn't so much courage but the
fact that, well, first of all, all of this was
on the heels of COVID Phil died in July of
(09:01):
twenty nineteen. My sister died in January of twenty twenty,
and I had in the back of my mind because
we knew Phil had als. It's a progressive, difficult disease
that takes your ability to move away bit by bit.
And my sister had lung cancer. But in the back
(09:22):
of my mind, I thought, well, when my husband passes,
because there's no cure for this disease, she and I
my run and buddy, We're just going to lean on
each other and we're just gonna, you know, shoulder through it.
And then she passed away. So my birth family and
my family that I've had.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Phil and I were.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Married for forty years, disappeared in the space of six months.
So I was more profoundly alone than I ever have
been in my life.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
And then there's COVID. So my normal sort of go
to when I have a challenge.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Is to get busy, Like I just get busy. I
do too much, I run too fast. I just that
was not an option because the world shut down. So
I'm home with my dogs in the quiet, and the
book and the record were born from that quality of
(10:24):
time where I had absolutely no choice.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Which came first. Was it the album or was it
the book?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
They kind of tumbled out. I didn't set out to
write a book. I absolutely did not. I mean, I
did not set out to write a book. But in
the quiet, songs came, music came thoughts, imaginings, meditations, poems,
(10:53):
all of these things sometimes one on top of each other,
and I start I started speaking and singing into my
memos on my phone. But prior to that, in the
space where I was resisting grief, I just I was like,
I just can't.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
This cannot be my life. This Absolutely my husband was
a good man. I'm a good person.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I thought I was the kind of person God was
pleased with why in the world? And I was angry, Honestly,
I was angry and disappointed, and I did not want
to lean into my grief. So I was sitting in
a stubborn kind of resistant space. But guess what, the
(11:38):
attitude that I that I had cut me off from
my own voice, and so for a time I lost
the ability to sing. I found that in resisting this,
you know, I don't want to. I'm never going to
sing again. These are the thoughts.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
So we're going on.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I'm never going to sing again, because you know, my
voice is broken, and my life is broken, and my
voice isn't like it was, and everything has changed. And
I was looking at the losses and sort of stacking
them up, one on top of the other, and you know,
set my jaw tight, and my voice became unavailable. I
(12:21):
absolutely could not say it was not until I softened,
accepting that, giving myself a little grace. You know what,
if the voice is broken, is broken, and it'll just
have to be beautifully broken. I'll just have to accept
that I am not the same, but also accept that
(12:43):
if I am to sing again, if I am to
be given my gift back, anybody who listens to me
will have to accept that I am a broken vessel
because I cannot pretend and do a soft shoe around
my brokenness and still sing. So I was gonna have
(13:06):
to be authentic and honest. In that space is where
the book and the music emerged. Once I gave myself
permission to be authentic, and I was as surprised as anybody.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That's what it took.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Not strength, not courage, not faith, but acceptance.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Isn't that something?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Isn't that something?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah? Yeah, you're listening to Leading While Black, the Black
Information Networks monthly program dedicated to showcasing black leaders in
all fields and disciplines of industry and entertainment. The soothing,
melodic voice you've been hearing is that of jazz great
Nina Freelan, who released her latest album this past spring
and has a new book set to be released on
(13:57):
October twenty first. Nina's late husband, Phil died in twenty nineteen.
He was a lead architect on the Smithsonian's Museum of
African American History and Culture. Just one year later, her
beloved sister passed away. The losses have been transformative for Nina,
but in a life affirming way. She explains, how as
our conversation continues, so where did the joy come from?
(14:19):
You mentioned there are pockets of joy as well. Where
did you find the joy or where do you find
the joy in the midst of the grief?
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Well, for me, the natural world is a huge inspiration,
and there were moments of you'll find them in the book.
A hawk feather from a red tailed hawk in the
middle of the driveway, where I couldn't miss it, where
I could not miss it, A perfect feather which I
(14:52):
took as a message from the creator that flight was
still available for you child. Flight The symbol is you
know in butterflies and the trees, you know, the impossible
things that you would you'd think, what a coincidence that
(15:14):
this turtle is going to cross my path, This turtle
who's who's lumbering up my driveway in the heat that
I thought was a rock at first. And she's moving slowly,
but she's moving, and it's a good ninety degrees outside,
and I'm following her, thinking where in the world are
(15:36):
you going, sister? She keeps going on, and I'm thinking,
what a ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Urge is?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
It has to be something akin to I don't know, survival.
Because she was going to find a place to lay
her eggs. I was sure she wasn't just out for
a stroll. And not once did she look back from
where she came.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Not once.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
She was driven by some deep inner urge to continue
the species. And I just was like, I wish I
could be, you know, equal to the cards that I
was dealt. She was dealing with the cards she was dealt.
No complaints, no should have go to water. She was
(16:27):
doing her thing. So she had a profound message from
my heart. Climb up, sister, do the hard thing. You're
gonna be all right, You're gonna find rest, You'll be okay.
So these kinds of things that I never would have
taken the time to pay attention to, you know, ants, butterflies,
(16:48):
creepy Crawley's you know, beautiful leaves that fall, but you
know right in your face, like right the golden one
with streaks of red. That's it's impossible, impossibly beautiful that
falls right in front of you, not across the street,
not before you came out, and not after, but right
(17:13):
then as a gift. So those kinds of things brought
me great joy and a great sense that death is
not the end.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
That is so beautiful. I heard in one of your interviews,
I think it was with NPR where you said the
journey is the point. It's found on that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Well, I think we are trained in the West. I
don't know if it's the truth in every culture, but
we're trained to look at ends. Did you win, did
you get the medal? You know, how did you grab
that brass ring? And we ignore the process. We don't
(17:56):
pay attention to the road. And the road is where
the lessons are. I mean, it's lovely to be recognized
for having done something wonderful, but the process, the journey,
that's where you get all your good stuff. That's where
(18:16):
the learnings are. And the journey is also ever ever growing,
ever expanding. And so if we focus so much on
getting the thing at the end of the thing, we
miss the fact that the journey is the point. That's
where we grow, that's where we stretch, that's where we
(18:37):
become a new thing is on the road. Is when
we look back in the rear view mirror, we're not
looking at the same person when we have been through
some stuff. When I look at Nina Freelon pre twenty nineteen,
I have empathy for her. I have sympathy for her,
(18:58):
I have love for her, and I know that that
woman is not the woman I am at this moment.
Grief has stretched me enjoyful and very interesting ways. For
one thing, I am so much more patient. It's like, honey,
(19:20):
that isn't even anything for you.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
To worry about.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I'm also more bold because my head has already been
in the lion's mouth. So if all you have to
say to me is that you don't like me or
you don't want to book me or I'm not this
or that or somebody else's better. That is a somemall thing.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
That's a small thing in your album. You take us
on the emotion of what it seems you have experience
in the losses of your husband and your sister. Was
that the goal of the album when you started out,
or did it just kind of unfold like that? Naturally?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I feel like it unfolded, honestly, because you know, they
tell you when you write that you should start at
a place that you know, you should start with your truth,
especially if you're a novice. And I considered myself a novice.
When you say the word author and Nina Freelan, I
(20:18):
was like, no, I'm not an author. I'm a singer.
And a friend of mine pointed out, she said, you've
been writing.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
All your life.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
You just have been writing inside the form of a
thirty two bar song, but you've always been a writer.
And so I had this idea of writing prose is
being a different thing. And as these ideas for songs
(20:47):
and also ideas for the book began to emerge, they
emerged in a lyrical way because that's who I am.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
There'd be a poem one day.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
There'd be a short story another day, some memory from
you know. Turtles appear in the book in several places.
I had several turtle encounters, and when they emerged after
a while, I realized that they were gifts, gifts that
did not be long to me, that somehow, in sharing
(21:23):
the gifts, I might in some way open doors for
other people to engage in creative ways with their own grief.
Because we're not told that we're told hold on to
the gospel plow. We're told, you know, in time it
will get better. May your memories be a blessing. You know.
We're told these things, but we're not told how to
(21:45):
do these things. And women don't speak to each other
in some ways that they could about how to navigate
life if you end up being by yourself, even though
statistics say women outlive men, there's a lot of widow
women out there.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
The whole album is beautifully feminine. Really is a beautifully
to me anthem, a note of love and the journey
of life that it can take us on.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Thank you so much when you write something deeply personal,
you know, something from the core. I mean, because we
can all entertain and there's nothing wrong with that, but
that's not what this is. This is an interrogation, a
curiosity about what's underneath all that stuff. This was the
(22:38):
record that I had to to create in order to
see what else might exist, you know, after it. So
I'm just grateful that I was obedient enough to let
it flow through me, even though there were moments where
(22:58):
I was like, gee, this is kind I'm not personal.
Who sings about widows? Nobody who does that? Nina, who
does that? People are going to think.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I don't want to be sad.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I don't want to think about those moments in life
that really do happen but nobody sings about. And how
about when I performed it on stage, I've had many
women come and say, my beloved passed ten years ago.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
These are some of.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Them, like young women, like young women in their thirties
and forties who are widows, and some elders. I was
performing in Las Vegas and this elderly woman said I
didn't want to come tonight. That's the first thing she said,
I didn't want to come tonight.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
I said, well, I'm glad you did. She said, my
brother made me come.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
She said, I just want you to know. I've been
a widow for over thirty years, she said, and you
healed me tonight. I didn't even know that that place
was broken.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
And then she stro it off. She didn't buy a
record either, so.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I'm just saying right now, yes, she said, I got
what I came for. And this was so funny, she said,
nobody sings for the widow woman.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Nobody sings. So it was just a.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Validation that, yes, you're on the right you're on the
right path here, and whatever fears.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
I may have had in the back of my own mind,
we're just that fears that were unfounded.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I am changed in my passage.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I am changed.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Thanks for tuning in to this month's Leading While Black,
the Black Information Networks monthly program dedicated to showcasing black
leaders and influencers impacting change and advance meant for the
black community. We've been speaking with Nina Freelon, the seven
time Grammy nominee, who is finding new life in the
midst of grief after the passing of her husband and
then beloved sister a few years ago. It's been a
(25:01):
conversation seeped in inspiration and enlightenment sentiments in which we
close this month's program for the women out there who
may be feeling a little melancholic, or may have a
hurt that they can't quite identify that may be attached
to loss. A message of hope to them, I guess
through your journey that could encourage them and inspire them
(25:22):
to engage the grief in a healthy and meaningful way.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Wow, thank you for that question. I am not the therapist.
I am not the one who can tell you how
to do your grief. Your grief is individual, It belongs
to you, and it is in the complete shape of
the person that you love. But just realizing that it
(25:51):
is just consider because I don't want to tell anybody
what to do, but consider the perspective that grief is.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Form of love.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
If I felt nothing when my husband, the architect of
record of the Smithsonian Museum of African American History and Culture,
if I felt nothing, that would be the strangest thing.
I lost my lover, my friend, my confidant, the guy
(26:24):
who understood my jokes. The world lost a designed leader.
The world lost an African American architect of the highest
level who was built for his assignment. So there are
sort of these layered losses I've had people say to
(26:46):
me that although they recognize and they have great compassion
for me in losing my beloved mate, but they also
share the feeling of great loss in his death, and
that shared sensibility is really heartwarming. I think a lot
(27:08):
of times we feel like our grief is very you know,
sort of just our own grief. It's private, but reaching
out and touching someone's hand, not to say, not to compare,
not to say, oh, I know what you mean because
I lost blank blank blank, but just reaching across, because
we're all human and if we live long enough, we
will experience loss of all kinds.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
It's very good.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Well, a reminder that your album is out, Beneath the Skin.
It was released in March, and your upcoming book is
when is it scheduled to be released? Is it October
twenty first?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
It's October twenty first, Beneath the Skin of Sorrow Improvisations
on Loss. I am so just so thrilled.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
That you took the time to talk to me today.
It's just so great. Really, thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Oh you are so Wellcome listen. My husband and I
have also bought tickets to your show in Atlanta on
November seventeenth, and we understand who you are actually being
going to perform in several cities across the US. Is
I know you have several shows in California. How can
our listeners learn more about your schedule as well as
about you and your work in general?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Oh? Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
The best way, I imagine is on the website, which
is Nina dot com, not Ninafreelan dot com, but just
Nina And that's four ends, one E in one A
n E n n A dot com is where all
the shows are listed. And Great Grief is my podcast.
(28:41):
It's available wherever you get your podcasts. And sometimes people
hear Great Grief, but they say good grief.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
But we're going for great. We're not stopping it good
and all.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
The goodness that comes with it, right, absolutely all. Yeah,
we are most grateful to Nina for including us on
her book tour. You can learn more about her latest album,
Beneath the Skin, her upcoming performances, her podcast Great Grief,
and how to pre order her upcoming book, Beneath the
Skin of Sorrow, and provisations on loss all at Nina
(29:15):
dot com. That's Nina spelled n N E N n A.
We thank you for joining us for this edition of
Leading Wile Black. We hope this month's conversation provided a
moment of reprieve during this time of uncertainty and change
for many. Be sure to tune in next month to
learn of the endeavors of another black leader was impacting
change in a positive way. I'm Andrea Coleman. The Black
(29:36):
Information Network means Black News First.
Coming up next on Leading while Black.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
And I know that that woman is not the woman
I am at this moment. Grief has stretched me enjoyful
and very interesting ways.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Words of hope and inspiration. A conversation with jazz great
Nina Free Lawn about her transformative journey with grief and
how she's now helping other black women discover all it
has to offer from the private sector to public life.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
These are the people making a difference in the Black community.
They are Leading Wild Black.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
On the Black Information Network. Hello and welcome to this
month's Leading Wile Black, the Black Information Networks monthly program
spotlighting Black leaders in the fields of entertainment, business, health, sports, politics,
and more. I'm Andrea Coleman. This month, we slow it
down a bit to explore the latest works of seven
times Grammy nominee jazz artist Nina Free Lawn. Nina released
(00:55):
her latest album, Beneath the Skin in March, and later
this month she is set to release a companion book
titled Beneath the Skin of Sorrow and Provisations on Loss.
While being one of the world's greatest jazz singers of
our time. Our conversation today is on the topic of grief,
a topic she is helping many people, especially black women,
explore in a new and invigorating way. So you are
(01:21):
a seven time Grammy nominee who is still creating and
producing beautiful music. Tell us about these latest projects of yours.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Well, thank you for the chance to talk about them.
They are both The book Beneath the Skin of Sorrow
Improvisations on Loss and the album Beneath the Skin are
both born from the same creative breath. The album came
(01:50):
out in March. It is my first project of all
original music. You know, jazz singers often delve into the
The Americans Songbook and songs by Ellington and Billie straight
Horn and you know and others, but this is my
first album of all original music. I really felt it
(02:13):
was time for me, having been in this business for
thirty some odd years, to begin telling some stories of
my own. I've always written, and maybe there's been an
original tune here or there, but this entire project is
turning inward and in my mind it has a decidedly
feminine feel where I am exploring pages for my own book,
(02:38):
for my own metaphorical book of my life. And then
the book is a memoir.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
It is a deeply personal.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Look at at my life, not just my losses, but
also the ways in which joy and sorrow intersect. And
it's also about my life is a jazz musician, how
(03:14):
being a jazz musician has impacted my grief? I really
feel that improvisation, the things I learned, the skills I
learned on the bandstand have helped support and buoy me
in this very very difficult, challenging, joyful, and strange time
(03:36):
since my husband passed. My sister passed in twenty nineteen
and twenty twenty within six months of each other. So
that's sort of the nutshell view.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah. So, and the titles for both you're using references
are you're using the phrase beneath the skin? Where does
that come from? What is it there that you're wanting
us to uncover our discuss whereas you you take us
through both projects.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Wow, that's an awesome question. You know, skin is where
judgment can live. Skin is the surface of things. It's
also protection, it's our largest organ. It's also where we
make decisions on whether we think something is good or
(04:25):
not good. And I wanted to go underneath honestly, you
know that old saying beauty is only skin deep. Yeah yeah, yeah, that.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Old old too.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
The things that live on the skin can give us
a glimpse, but it isn't the whole story, is it.
It's a part of the story. It's the beginning of
the story, or maybe not.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
The story at all.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
The skin of things is like skating on the surface
of a frozen lake. When you go deeper, there's an
entire different universe. They're different layers, and so that's what
these projects explore in the book. I wanted to explore
some of the nuanced, layered aspects of grief. On the surface,
(05:17):
it's sorrow and it's tears and it's missing someone. But
what I have found as I've leaned into my grief
is that there are pockets of joy and humor and
just things that I didn't expect awareness. You know, I
feel like I'm more empathetic as a human inside my grief.
(05:42):
I can understand if someone just isn't feeling like themselves.
I have empathy for that, for the human condition that
we all experience.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, because
you know, grief is one of those things that touches
all our lives at some point in time, and sometimes
it's through the loss of a person. Sometimes it could
be through the loss of something else, you know, some
of us more in eras past or you know, shifts
in life that come unexpected. So I love how you're
(06:17):
leaning into it. How much courage does it take to
do that? I mean, and I say that because you're
doing not only have you done the album and you've
written a book, but you're also doing a podcast on
it that's found great success. So it apparently is a
topic that a lot of us have at least found
to be intriguing.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
You know.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I feel like people would love to have permission to,
you know, lean into their grief, but the culture doesn't
support it. You know, we're given a brief time at
the funeral and then we're sort of given these messages,
subtle and not so subtle. Get over it, you know,
(06:58):
live your life. Just all of these things that push
against really living well. So my podcast Great Grief is
about living greatly through grief. It's not about wallowing in
any particular moment. It's about incorporating grief into the way we.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Live.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
And if you need a moment, take a moment, If
you need to change your lifestyle or what you think
is expected of you, especially black women.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Oh my gosh, we're holding up.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
The whole sky and it's impacting our mental and physical health,
and we don't give ourselves a break to find some
softness and say, you know what, I'm dealing with a lot.
I'm just gonna take care of me here for a minute.
Because if we don't take care of ourselves, then all
(07:53):
of the people that are depending on us will have
to suffer the consequences. So I think it's very kind
and good for us to make ourselves a priority in
our grief, in our joy, and in taking the time
to live fully. So if we feel something, feel it,
(08:13):
and it doesn't matter how long we tell ourselves these
stories that it's been long enough or it's been too long.
And grief is not linear. It can be many, many,
many years since the change or the shift or the
event in time occurred. But grief does not wear a watch,
(08:39):
and she cares not for time pieces of any kind.
She will wait patiently until we turn in her direction.
And for me, it wasn't so much courage but the
fact that, well, first of all, all of this was
on the heels of COVID Phil died in July of
(09:01):
twenty nineteen. My sister died in January of twenty twenty,
and I had in the back of my mind because
we knew Phil had als. It's a progressive, difficult disease
that takes your ability to move away bit by bit.
And my sister had lung cancer. But in the back
(09:22):
of my mind, I thought, well, when my husband passes,
because there's no cure for this disease, she and I
my run and buddy, We're just going to lean on
each other and we're just gonna, you know, shoulder through it.
And then she passed away. So my birth family and
my family that I've had.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Phil and I were.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Married for forty years, disappeared in the space of six months.
So I was more profoundly alone than I ever have
been in my life.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
And then there's COVID. So my normal sort of go
to when I have a challenge.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Is to get busy, Like I just get busy. I
do too much, I run too fast. I just that
was not an option because the world shut down. So
I'm home with my dogs in the quiet, and the
book and the record were born from that quality of
(10:24):
time where I had absolutely no choice.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Which came first. Was it the album or was it
the book?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
They kind of tumbled out. I didn't set out to
write a book. I absolutely did not. I mean, I
did not set out to write a book. But in
the quiet, songs came, music came thoughts, imaginings, meditations, poems,
(10:53):
all of these things sometimes one on top of each other,
and I start I started speaking and singing into my
memos on my phone. But prior to that, in the
space where I was resisting grief, I just I was like,
I just can't.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
This cannot be my life. This Absolutely my husband was
a good man. I'm a good person.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I thought I was the kind of person God was
pleased with why in the world? And I was angry, Honestly,
I was angry and disappointed, and I did not want
to lean into my grief. So I was sitting in
a stubborn kind of resistant space. But guess what, the
(11:38):
attitude that I that I had cut me off from
my own voice, and so for a time I lost
the ability to sing. I found that in resisting this,
you know, I don't want to. I'm never going to
sing again. These are the thoughts.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
So we're going on.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I'm never going to sing again, because you know, my
voice is broken, and my life is broken, and my
voice isn't like it was, and everything has changed. And
I was looking at the losses and sort of stacking
them up, one on top of the other, and you know,
set my jaw tight, and my voice became unavailable. I
(12:21):
absolutely could not say it was not until I softened,
accepting that, giving myself a little grace. You know what,
if the voice is broken, is broken, and it'll just
have to be beautifully broken. I'll just have to accept
that I am not the same, but also accept that
(12:43):
if I am to sing again, if I am to
be given my gift back, anybody who listens to me
will have to accept that I am a broken vessel
because I cannot pretend and do a soft shoe around
my brokenness and still sing. So I was gonna have
(13:06):
to be authentic and honest. In that space is where
the book and the music emerged. Once I gave myself
permission to be authentic, and I was as surprised as anybody.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That's what it took.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Not strength, not courage, not faith, but acceptance.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Isn't that something?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Isn't that something?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah? Yeah, you're listening to Leading While Black, the Black
Information Networks monthly program dedicated to showcasing black leaders in
all fields and disciplines of industry and entertainment. The soothing,
melodic voice you've been hearing is that of jazz great
Nina Freelan, who released her latest album this past spring
and has a new book set to be released on
(13:57):
October twenty first. Nina's late husband, Phil died in twenty nineteen.
He was a lead architect on the Smithsonian's Museum of
African American History and Culture. Just one year later, her
beloved sister passed away. The losses have been transformative for Nina,
but in a life affirming way. She explains, how as
our conversation continues, so where did the joy come from?
(14:19):
You mentioned there are pockets of joy as well. Where
did you find the joy or where do you find
the joy in the midst of the grief?
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Well, for me, the natural world is a huge inspiration,
and there were moments of you'll find them in the book.
A hawk feather from a red tailed hawk in the
middle of the driveway, where I couldn't miss it, where
I could not miss it, A perfect feather which I
(14:52):
took as a message from the creator that flight was
still available for you child. Flight The symbol is you
know in butterflies and the trees, you know, the impossible
things that you would you'd think, what a coincidence that
(15:14):
this turtle is going to cross my path, This turtle
who's who's lumbering up my driveway in the heat that
I thought was a rock at first. And she's moving slowly,
but she's moving, and it's a good ninety degrees outside,
and I'm following her, thinking where in the world are
(15:36):
you going, sister? She keeps going on, and I'm thinking,
what a ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Urge is?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
It has to be something akin to I don't know, survival.
Because she was going to find a place to lay
her eggs. I was sure she wasn't just out for
a stroll. And not once did she look back from
where she came.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Not once.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
She was driven by some deep inner urge to continue
the species. And I just was like, I wish I
could be, you know, equal to the cards that I
was dealt. She was dealing with the cards she was dealt.
No complaints, no should have go to water. She was
(16:27):
doing her thing. So she had a profound message from
my heart. Climb up, sister, do the hard thing. You're
gonna be all right, You're gonna find rest, You'll be okay.
So these kinds of things that I never would have
taken the time to pay attention to, you know, ants, butterflies,
(16:48):
creepy Crawley's you know, beautiful leaves that fall, but you
know right in your face, like right the golden one
with streaks of red. That's it's impossible, impossibly beautiful that
falls right in front of you, not across the street,
not before you came out, and not after, but right
(17:13):
then as a gift. So those kinds of things brought
me great joy and a great sense that death is
not the end.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
That is so beautiful. I heard in one of your interviews,
I think it was with NPR where you said the
journey is the point. It's found on that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Well, I think we are trained in the West. I
don't know if it's the truth in every culture, but
we're trained to look at ends. Did you win, did
you get the medal? You know, how did you grab
that brass ring? And we ignore the process. We don't
(17:56):
pay attention to the road. And the road is where
the lessons are. I mean, it's lovely to be recognized
for having done something wonderful, but the process, the journey,
that's where you get all your good stuff. That's where
(18:16):
the learnings are. And the journey is also ever ever growing,
ever expanding. And so if we focus so much on
getting the thing at the end of the thing, we
miss the fact that the journey is the point. That's
where we grow, that's where we stretch, that's where we
(18:37):
become a new thing is on the road. Is when
we look back in the rear view mirror, we're not
looking at the same person when we have been through
some stuff. When I look at Nina Freelon pre twenty nineteen,
I have empathy for her. I have sympathy for her,
(18:58):
I have love for her, and I know that that
woman is not the woman I am at this moment.
Grief has stretched me enjoyful and very interesting ways. For
one thing, I am so much more patient. It's like, honey,
(19:20):
that isn't even anything for you.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
To worry about.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I'm also more bold because my head has already been
in the lion's mouth. So if all you have to
say to me is that you don't like me or
you don't want to book me or I'm not this
or that or somebody else's better. That is a somemall thing.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
That's a small thing in your album. You take us
on the emotion of what it seems you have experience
in the losses of your husband and your sister. Was
that the goal of the album when you started out,
or did it just kind of unfold like that? Naturally?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I feel like it unfolded, honestly, because you know, they
tell you when you write that you should start at
a place that you know, you should start with your truth,
especially if you're a novice. And I considered myself a novice.
When you say the word author and Nina Freelan, I
(20:18):
was like, no, I'm not an author. I'm a singer.
And a friend of mine pointed out, she said, you've
been writing.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
All your life.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
You just have been writing inside the form of a
thirty two bar song, but you've always been a writer.
And so I had this idea of writing prose is
being a different thing. And as these ideas for songs
(20:47):
and also ideas for the book began to emerge, they
emerged in a lyrical way because that's who I am.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
There'd be a poem one day.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
There'd be a short story another day, some memory from
you know. Turtles appear in the book in several places.
I had several turtle encounters, and when they emerged after
a while, I realized that they were gifts, gifts that
did not be long to me, that somehow, in sharing
(21:23):
the gifts, I might in some way open doors for
other people to engage in creative ways with their own grief.
Because we're not told that we're told hold on to
the gospel plow. We're told, you know, in time it
will get better. May your memories be a blessing. You know.
We're told these things, but we're not told how to
(21:45):
do these things. And women don't speak to each other
in some ways that they could about how to navigate
life if you end up being by yourself, even though
statistics say women outlive men, there's a lot of widow
women out there.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
The whole album is beautifully feminine. Really is a beautifully
to me anthem, a note of love and the journey
of life that it can take us on.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Thank you so much when you write something deeply personal,
you know, something from the core. I mean, because we
can all entertain and there's nothing wrong with that, but
that's not what this is. This is an interrogation, a
curiosity about what's underneath all that stuff. This was the
(22:38):
record that I had to to create in order to
see what else might exist, you know, after it. So
I'm just grateful that I was obedient enough to let
it flow through me, even though there were moments where
(22:58):
I was like, gee, this is kind I'm not personal.
Who sings about widows? Nobody who does that? Nina, who
does that? People are going to think.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I don't want to be sad.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I don't want to think about those moments in life
that really do happen but nobody sings about. And how
about when I performed it on stage, I've had many
women come and say, my beloved passed ten years ago.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
These are some of.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Them, like young women, like young women in their thirties
and forties who are widows, and some elders. I was
performing in Las Vegas and this elderly woman said I
didn't want to come tonight. That's the first thing she said,
I didn't want to come tonight.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
I said, well, I'm glad you did. She said, my
brother made me come.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
She said, I just want you to know. I've been
a widow for over thirty years, she said, and you
healed me tonight. I didn't even know that that place
was broken.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
And then she stro it off. She didn't buy a
record either, so.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I'm just saying right now, yes, she said, I got
what I came for. And this was so funny, she said,
nobody sings for the widow woman.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Nobody sings. So it was just a.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Validation that, yes, you're on the right you're on the
right path here, and whatever fears.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
I may have had in the back of my own mind,
we're just that fears that were unfounded.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I am changed in my passage.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I am changed.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Thanks for tuning in to this month's Leading While Black,
the Black Information Networks monthly program dedicated to showcasing black
leaders and influencers impacting change and advance meant for the
black community. We've been speaking with Nina Freelon, the seven
time Grammy nominee, who is finding new life in the
midst of grief after the passing of her husband and
then beloved sister a few years ago. It's been a
(25:01):
conversation seeped in inspiration and enlightenment sentiments in which we
close this month's program for the women out there who
may be feeling a little melancholic, or may have a
hurt that they can't quite identify that may be attached
to loss. A message of hope to them, I guess
through your journey that could encourage them and inspire them
(25:22):
to engage the grief in a healthy and meaningful way.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Wow, thank you for that question. I am not the therapist.
I am not the one who can tell you how
to do your grief. Your grief is individual, It belongs
to you, and it is in the complete shape of
the person that you love. But just realizing that it
(25:51):
is just consider because I don't want to tell anybody
what to do, but consider the perspective that grief is.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Form of love.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
If I felt nothing when my husband, the architect of
record of the Smithsonian Museum of African American History and Culture,
if I felt nothing, that would be the strangest thing.
I lost my lover, my friend, my confidant, the guy
(26:24):
who understood my jokes. The world lost a designed leader.
The world lost an African American architect of the highest
level who was built for his assignment. So there are
sort of these layered losses I've had people say to
(26:46):
me that although they recognize and they have great compassion
for me in losing my beloved mate, but they also
share the feeling of great loss in his death, and
that shared sensibility is really heartwarming. I think a lot
(27:08):
of times we feel like our grief is very you know,
sort of just our own grief. It's private, but reaching
out and touching someone's hand, not to say, not to compare,
not to say, oh, I know what you mean because
I lost blank blank blank, but just reaching across, because
we're all human and if we live long enough, we
will experience loss of all kinds.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
It's very good.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Well, a reminder that your album is out, Beneath the Skin.
It was released in March, and your upcoming book is
when is it scheduled to be released? Is it October
twenty first?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
It's October twenty first, Beneath the Skin of Sorrow Improvisations
on Loss. I am so just so thrilled.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
That you took the time to talk to me today.
It's just so great. Really, thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Oh you are so Wellcome listen. My husband and I
have also bought tickets to your show in Atlanta on
November seventeenth, and we understand who you are actually being
going to perform in several cities across the US. Is
I know you have several shows in California. How can
our listeners learn more about your schedule as well as
about you and your work in general?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Oh? Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
The best way, I imagine is on the website, which
is Nina dot com, not Ninafreelan dot com, but just
Nina And that's four ends, one E in one A
n E n n A dot com is where all
the shows are listed. And Great Grief is my podcast.
(28:41):
It's available wherever you get your podcasts. And sometimes people
hear Great Grief, but they say good grief.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
But we're going for great. We're not stopping it good
and all.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
The goodness that comes with it, right, absolutely all. Yeah,
we are most grateful to Nina for including us on
her book tour. You can learn more about her latest album,
Beneath the Skin, her upcoming performances, her podcast Great Grief,
and how to pre order her upcoming book, Beneath the
Skin of Sorrow, and provisations on loss all at Nina
(29:15):
dot com. That's Nina spelled n N E N n A.
We thank you for joining us for this edition of
Leading Wile Black. We hope this month's conversation provided a
moment of reprieve during this time of uncertainty and change
for many. Be sure to tune in next month to
learn of the endeavors of another black leader was impacting
change in a positive way. I'm Andrea Coleman. The Black
(29:36):
Information Network means Black News First.
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.