June 13, 2025 • 23 mins
Dr. Taibat Eribo, an OB-GYN at Healing Hands Ministries in Dallas, is on the front lines of the fight to save Black mothers. In this powerful interview, she explains why addressing the Black maternal mortality crisis requires systemic change, starting with how we train future doctors.
Listen now as Dr. Eribo shares her insights, experience, and unwavering commitment to protecting Black maternal health.
Listen now as Dr. Eribo shares her insights, experience, and unwavering commitment to protecting Black maternal health.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Your reputation precedes you. I've just heard nothing but outstanding
things about you and especially your care for maternal health
in general, in particular Black maternal health. So if you
will tell us a little bit about how long you've
been serving in that industry and in that capacity.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I have been an obigen since twenty nineteen, and then
I've been an HHM since twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Right, and what is an HHM.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
HHM is Healing Hands Ministry. It is a federally qualified
health center right here in Dallas. We have in addition
to women's health, we have pediatrics and family medicine, but
specifically within the women's health, we take care of everyone
with insurance, without insurance, under insured, a refugee population, we
(00:48):
take care of everyone.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
That's beautiful. Let's talk about black maternal health if we
can for a moment, this crisis that we're seeing where
Black women are dying at three times the rate of
white women, and that is like fifty for every one
hundred thousand live debts. And then you have compared to
white women, which I think is around ten or fourteen
(01:10):
per one hundred thousand live debts, which is quite a difference.
What's happening there. Why are we seeing such a disparity.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
That's a great question. I mean, like you rightly pointed out,
the average maternal mortality in the United States is eighteen
per one hundred thousand debts according to the twenty twenty
three data that we have. And so while it looks
like the United States is doing great, because if you
look at over the past ten years, the trajectory has
sort of come down in terms of maternal mortality. When
(01:42):
you start to break that down by ethnicity, you find
out that there's significant racial disparities there where the black
woman sort of takes on the burden of that statistic.
So you're like, what is happening. It's multifactorial. There's not
as singular thing or singular cause that we can point
(02:04):
to and see. The reason is this right? The reason
is disparity like deep rooted, like racial disparities against African
Americans in general. The reason is the social determinants of health, transportation,
in security, food, insecurity, house and insecurity. It is the
unconscious biases that providers bring to the care of these women.
(02:29):
It is access to care. It is access to care.
If you look in South Dallas, that's a medical desert.
So thankfully ah Term Health has a clinic out there,
but South Dallas. Just to point out an error that
is very densely populated by the African American population is
the desert. And so when you start to think about
(02:50):
what is the cause of this disparity that we're seeing
in these numbers, it is multi factorial. And so when
a woman comes to care for her pregnancy and you
fail to neglect other things that affects their care and
you just only focus in the clinical you missed the
whole picture. You missed the whole picture. She's having you
(03:11):
ride the bus to clinic and she misses her bus,
or she doesn't know where her next meal is coming from,
or houses in jeropardy, then you can't properly care for
her onto your address, all those extanuous circumstances surrounds her.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Who owns that? Where does responsibility lie for changing these
social determinants and helping that woman get into a state
of stability and health.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I think it is all of us. I think the
policies right, like what is the legislature doing, Like what
kind of medical infrastructure do we have in the United States?
Does the account for those things right, So like policies,
and then clinics as well. Right, clinics also have a
role to play in this, and that you can connect
(03:55):
and partner with organizations that have those resources. Right, make
sure that you're not just an isolated clinic that only
focuses on just the clinical You have to partner with organizations,
because your organizations in Dallas that do that. At Age HM,
we currently partner with Center for Survivors of Torture who
(04:16):
helps us address the social determinants of health for our patients,
things like partnering with Hope Cottage that does the parenting classes,
and even Dallas County just recently started a Martina Health program,
whether you're also helping to address those issues. So if
you are in a space like I am in a
community health center where you understand that you're funding is
(04:40):
kind of limited and you know that you can't address
all these issues, the best thing you can do for
your patients is partner find partners who will help you
address the other non clinical aspects that contribute to the
statistics that we're talking about.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So that's pre delivery. Take us to post delivery, where
these women are in the hospital receiving medical care, sometimes
complaining of complications, as we heard through the story of
Nicole Berryman's daughter Tierra, not being either heard, but being
dismissed and discharged, only to come back days later and
(05:16):
in her case, actually dying once she arrived there taken
to intensive care. What happens in those situations and this
is not an isolated incident. We've heard of others and
they continue to happen repeatedly. What's going on that this
is happening under the watch of medical professionals?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Absolutely, I mean, there's absolutely no excuse for that. When
a patient is under your care, you have a responsibility
to take every single complaint seriously and oftentime, Like the
scenario you just described is not an isolated event. It's
not an isolated incident. This is like a repetitive pattern
that usually happens among the African Americans. It's like when
(05:57):
you have a complaint's like, well, maybe it's just gas,
it's just sleep deprivation, maybe it's just this. Well, we
need to start changing the rhetoric here, We need to
start changing our mindset and our approach to care that
common illnesses do not present the same way across ethnic backgrounds,
right and when we go to medical school, the things
(06:19):
we're taught is in the context of not an African American,
It's in a context of like a white person. And
so when you then start treating a black person, do
you have the frame of reference? Do you know how
it presents in this population? Right? Like, it's not uncommon
for you to open a textbook and you show your rash. Well,
(06:39):
the rash is on a white skin, but then when
it's on my skin, what does it look like? So
when you see the same rash on someone that looks
like me, can you identify it? So again, it's not
just about the care that is happening at that moment
in the hospital. We need to take it back to
policies and how we're teaching and how we're training, and
(07:00):
how we're kind of like addressing those unconscious biases that
we don't even know we bring to the care. Because
we truly want to believe that a physician doesn't spend
over a decade of their life training to the intentionally
be biased against one group. I would like to believe
in humanity that like when we take the hypocritic, oh,
(07:23):
it means something that we're not intentionally doing this but
the reality the statistics is we are and so what
do we do about it? Like when a patient is
in a hospital, especially an African American patient who is
a new mom who's still in the peripartum period, has
a complain of a chest pain, it's not good. It
(07:44):
might be, but you have to assume, like, what is
the thing that would kill this woman. Let's make sure
that we've ruled that out, and then we can say, Okay,
it's just good.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
That's interesting because these depths too, are cutting across socio
economic lines, right, So sometimes you want to say, well,
is it a matter of you know, just being limited
by the amount of tests that their insurance will allow
and so forth. But we're looking at women from across
all socioeconomic levels that are being subjected and actually dying.
So how do you get before these educators in these
(08:20):
institutions to allow and encourage change in the way that
these lessons are taught so that they can become more sensitive.
I mean, how do you sensitize a professional to these
issues that could save the lives of black moms.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Because the sensitization doesn't start at a level of professional like,
we have to address it before you become a physician,
we have to address it in the policies that we
make in how we do our medical education. We have
to address it in our plants rooms well before you
are in the world practicing as an independent practitioner. And
(08:57):
so that is going to be again, it's going to
take all of us. It's going to take me, it's
going to take you. It's going to take policy. It's
going to take our current practitioners, is going to take
our policy makers, is going to take our school administrators.
It's going to take black moms and black people speaking
up and like hey, like where am I in your textbook?
Like where are where are we in like the education
(09:20):
that you're providing to your students, to your learners.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, you know you say that, And I'm automatically reminded
of the era in which we are in socially, where
we are now seeing this pushback against any kind of
education that distinguishes any kind of racial difference and so forth.
How likely are these changes then, considering this current political
and social climate, how likely are these changes to take place?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I want to be optimistic to say that the disparity
that we see in the African American or the black
maternal mortality rate is not coincidence. It's not a reflection
of politics. This is real life. This are real people,
(10:09):
and we know the black mom is an anchor. She
is more than just a woman in her society. She
is the maha in chief of her community. And so
a decision to become pregnant should not be marred with
the possibility of mourning. This is real life. This is
real life. This is real life. And when a woman,
(10:30):
when a black woman is missing from her household, you
change the entire trajectory of her family or her community.
The fabric is not the same. And so when you
pull up the statistics and you know that the average
maternal mortality rate in America is eighteen per one hundred thousand,
but the black woman is fifty per one hundred thousand,
(10:51):
you can't argue with that. This is not talking about diversity, equiting, inclusion.
This is real life. This is not trying to pick
out This is real life. And so I would hope
that you know in our current political climate that everyone
is invested in reducing the maternal mortality rate. And you
cannot reduce the maternal mortality without reducing the black maternal
(11:16):
mortality rate, because that is the huge piece that is
skewing it to be in a high number. I mean,
when you think about the amount of money that we
as a country spend in healthcare and then you think
about our outcomes, I mean everyone should be invested in
that because the amount of money doesn't equate the result
we're getting. Among industrialized countries and high income countries, the
(11:40):
United States is at the bottom and yet to spend
the most. So if we're if we're in an error
where we're talking about efficiency and reducing you know, waste
and abuse and trying to be more efficient, what is
a more efficient way than targeting the high priority areas.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
That's very good. Let's lean on your expertise as a
healthcare maternal healthcare professional for a moment. What is the
perfect team for a woman who is pregnant looking to
make it through her maternal journey? What checklist can you
provide for her to at least prepare for best outcome.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
So that is a great question because that's a topic
that I talk about very very often with my team.
It's like, what should the team compose of? What should
the composition of a team that ensures a good outcome
for a mom look like and again it is multidisciplinary.
Right well, before pregnancy, we need to make sure that
(12:42):
all of our medical comorbidities are sort of optimized. So
your journey to a healthy pregnancy and postpartum period starts
with your community. It starts at the community. It starts
with the kind of food you're eating, the quality of
air that you're breathing, right, like, all these things that
has nothing to do with the pregnancy. That's why it starts.
(13:04):
And then you need access to care or your good
primary care to make sure that your hypertension and your
diabetes is well controlled, well before we even talk about pregnancy.
And then we need to make sure that if there's
any other comorbidities that's in the picture, is there any
psychiatric component, like any mental health that we need to address,
(13:24):
all of that, making sure that your children have access
to care while you're coming to your visits, So all
of that starts before pregnancy, because not often do you
see women in pregnancy Like I'm sorry, I know you're
saying that you recommend me going to the hospital, but
I have two other children and I don't have help,
And like when I come to my medical appointments, I
(13:46):
don't know where to keep the kids. And then we
also talk about clinic policies, like when I started, if
my clinic children weren't allowed, and I'm like, pregnancy is
a family affair, Like how can you expect her to
come to her clinic appointments and we don't provide childcare,
and then we say children are not allowed. We mix
that very quickly, and then moms are happy that, like
(14:07):
they don't have to worry about where to pull their
children while they're caring for themselves. So what does a
team look like? The team looks like providing all of
those au sureties and securities for or to pregnancy, and
then when it coming to pregnancy, meeting them where they
are ensuring that at that first visit that you're not
just focused on the clinical but you're focused on the
woman as a whole. Make sure you're doing some sort
(14:28):
of social determinants of health assessment. And that's where your
community health workers, your clinic navigators coming to place. Now
the clinician is not even another picture yet, this is
like another part of the team ensuring that all of
that's happening. And then when the clinician comes into the room,
making sure that you have like a good certified provider
(14:49):
that's qualified to take care of that woman, whether that's
a physician in opgyn, whether that's a midwife or ANOS practitioner, right,
and then that's part of the care team as well,
probably named like four teams members now, and then as
we go into the hospital, then you have another set
of providers there that's taking care of you in the
postpartum period. You need to make sure that your mental
(15:09):
health providers are part of that. Whether a woman has
overt depression or not, the immediate postpartum period is a
lot of emotions and anxiety, and so just making sure
that you have a team that checks it, even not
for anything to say, Mom, how are you doing mentally? Right?
I'm not saying that she needs to be hospitalized, it
needs to be in medication, but it needs to be
(15:30):
a component of mental health in the postpartum care.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
You mentioned a lot and you mentioned a lot of
people serving on teams at different stages of this journey,
which sounds wonderful, but it's quite adylic for a lot
of people who are just trying to make ends meet
and make it through the day. How do we in
the community support and shore up or show up for
(15:57):
the people. I mean, we're talking about fouls of women, yeah,
that are engaging in this every year. That's quite a
task for each one, yes, But.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
When you have partnerships and when you have real relationship
with different organizations, the process is smooth. We do this
every single day at each term health and we're freederally
qualified health center. Like when a woman comes in to
my clinic and she's pregnant, we have all of these
access and when she comes to the clinic, she has
(16:33):
access to pediatricians and a clinic for her children. Right,
she has access to behavioral health for mental health services,
she has access to pharmacy, she has access to lab
so she's not going here for lab, draw going here
for pharmacy, going here for it's only one stop shop.
And then when she has transportation issues, my nurse is
able to connect with her to make sure that she
can come too. And we're community health center. But the
(16:55):
reason why I'm invested in this because I know the population.
I serve a more women often at the margin of access,
and I know that if I only focus on the
political I will miss the picture and she will be
a part of that statistics.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Can we multiply you, Can we clone you and just
put you in every city and community in the world,
and we make certain your heart is available to every
woman who needs that kind of care, because it seems
like that's part of the answer, is making certain two
healthcare providers are paying attention and that the right kind
of care is available for every mom who is expecting
(17:31):
and wanting to experience that journey safely.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I know that when it comes to care, they're not
treated like sopari, They're not treated like they're a charity case,
and that the quality of care they get is no
different than my counterpart in private practice. Very important, Like
I say it all the time, I'm in Obgi and
clinting that just happens to be a federally qualified health center.
(17:56):
So when you walk into my lobby, it's not the
roof is not caven in and the smells horrendous and
the chair is broken. It's it's a standard clinic that
just happens to serve this population.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
What should an expecting mom or even a conceiving mom
look for in a health care provider?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Oh, you need to look for a partner. Your health
care provider must be willing to be a partner in
this journey. I refuse to come into this relationship as
a dictator or as a parent child dynamic. Refuse because
I understand that life is happening as you're seeing me, right,
(18:36):
And so when a patient comes, I'm like, okay, so
anything bothering you today? You want to talk about? Like anything,
you know, I'm like from the very first of them,
I'm like, okay, so we're gonna be this is gonna
be a ten month relationship. Okay, it's gonna be long.
So we when you come in this room, this is
a safe space, and I want to know what's bothering you?
Like it can be like baby's fine, but like when
(18:59):
I still at the door this morning, there was a
crazy drive on the road that like almost around my hood.
I had nothing to do with it. So we always
have time for like what's bothering you today? So now
my moms who comes to me every time, they're like, okay,
doctor abe, so what is bothering me today is? And
then we talk, we have a many like therapy session
and it's fine. So and they appreciate that, right, Like
(19:21):
you need to have a partner that understands that your
pregnancy journey is ten months long, right, and like in
that ten months, we need to build aenf relationship that
you can tell me things that you think has nothing
to do with this, because the moment I hear that, oh,
you're walking to clinic and it's just like, oh, like,
what was bothering me today? Was like when I try
(19:41):
to catch the bus, I missed the boss, And so
I'm like, I'm like, okay, right, you think we're just chatting,
but now the next thing we're going to talk about
is how we're going to make sure that that doesn't
happen again. And then when you have any questions, knowing
that like there's no question too silly, no question too
big that we can't talk about.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
If you could talk to anyone in the whole circle
of people involved a network involved with maternal health, in
particular black maternal health, who would you speak to most
and what message would you give to them?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I would speak to the physicians more, the providers more,
because I think that often times, and it's not our fault,
it's the way we're trained in school. You're trained to
be so clinically based and clinically focused that we don't
spend enough time talking about the person as a whole.
(20:37):
It's like, Okay, you have hypertension, and this is the
medicine done right. There's no room for like understanding the
circumstance around that. And often times that's what pushes patients away,
is that it comes to you and like sometimes you
know they're looking at the patient. You look at their vitals,
like your blood picture is really high today, you need
to go to the hospital. This is a medicine and.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Done, but you didn't start to think about that it
have the kids. You need' st have to think about
what's going to happen when you're in the hospital for
two days. And when the woman says, I can't go
to the hospital because of my other kids, what are
you documenting in your chart? Are you putting the word
non compliant in the chart? Because then the next doctor
who sees her in.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
The hospital is going to read your note and walk
into that room with that attitude that she's not compliant,
and just there you have likely made sure that she's
part of the statistics. So the people who I'm not
saying that my counterparts are bad, they're not like they're
truly committed excellent physicians who we just don't get enough
training in. The Other part of caring for a patient
(21:40):
is that if I wanted to see something and then
he's like, I need you to give more grace. There
needs to be room. There needs to be room for
life in the middle of your care. And like when
you're documenting, be kind. I know you're first trated because
every time she comes her blood pressure is high. But
her blood pressure might be high because she's catching the
(22:02):
bus and she's trying to hustle in and when she
comes in, the anime's trying to get their job done.
So the moment she sits down, ignoring that she needs
maybe five minutes to just catch your breath, takes her
blood pressure. Blood pressure is high. Then you come in
and you're like, oh, high blood pressure to the hospital.
Then she tells you she can't go. Then you document this.
It's like, take a moment and let there be enough grace.
(22:23):
Let there be enough grace to go around. I'm trying
to see the patients from from where they're coming and
what they have to offer apart from just the clinical
So I would speak to my counterparts more because I
think that we oftentimes have the power to change the
narrative around patients. How you document matters because the next
doctor who reads that note is going to then forge
(22:44):
that opinion about that patient before they ever meet them.
And so when they call me the room, they're like befold,
the patient's like, oh, I'm sorry, I come to like, okay,
now w'ere sign out against medical advice, right, And so
then that just gets perpetrated over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I wish we really could clone you. It's been right
to talk with you today.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Thank you so much, and.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Thank you for your work, but more so your heart.
It really has been encouraging and inspiring to talk with
you today, So hopefully we'll hear more from you as
we continue to delve into this issue as well.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Absolutely, absolutely, thank you so much again for the time
and the effort you put to plan this and for
taking the time to talk to me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, very good. Thank you for all you do.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Thank you
Your reputation precedes you. I've just heard nothing but outstanding
things about you and especially your care for maternal health
in general, in particular Black maternal health. So if you
will tell us a little bit about how long you've
been serving in that industry and in that capacity.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I have been an obigen since twenty nineteen, and then
I've been an HHM since twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Right, and what is an HHM.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
HHM is Healing Hands Ministry. It is a federally qualified
health center right here in Dallas. We have in addition
to women's health, we have pediatrics and family medicine, but
specifically within the women's health, we take care of everyone
with insurance, without insurance, under insured, a refugee population, we
(00:48):
take care of everyone.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
That's beautiful. Let's talk about black maternal health if we
can for a moment, this crisis that we're seeing where
Black women are dying at three times the rate of
white women, and that is like fifty for every one
hundred thousand live debts. And then you have compared to
white women, which I think is around ten or fourteen
(01:10):
per one hundred thousand live debts, which is quite a difference.
What's happening there. Why are we seeing such a disparity.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
That's a great question. I mean, like you rightly pointed out,
the average maternal mortality in the United States is eighteen
per one hundred thousand debts according to the twenty twenty
three data that we have. And so while it looks
like the United States is doing great, because if you
look at over the past ten years, the trajectory has
sort of come down in terms of maternal mortality. When
(01:42):
you start to break that down by ethnicity, you find
out that there's significant racial disparities there where the black
woman sort of takes on the burden of that statistic.
So you're like, what is happening. It's multifactorial. There's not
as singular thing or singular cause that we can point
(02:04):
to and see. The reason is this right? The reason
is disparity like deep rooted, like racial disparities against African
Americans in general. The reason is the social determinants of health, transportation,
in security, food, insecurity, house and insecurity. It is the
unconscious biases that providers bring to the care of these women.
(02:29):
It is access to care. It is access to care.
If you look in South Dallas, that's a medical desert.
So thankfully ah Term Health has a clinic out there,
but South Dallas. Just to point out an error that
is very densely populated by the African American population is
the desert. And so when you start to think about
(02:50):
what is the cause of this disparity that we're seeing
in these numbers, it is multi factorial. And so when
a woman comes to care for her pregnancy and you
fail to neglect other things that affects their care and
you just only focus in the clinical you missed the
whole picture. You missed the whole picture. She's having you
(03:11):
ride the bus to clinic and she misses her bus,
or she doesn't know where her next meal is coming from,
or houses in jeropardy, then you can't properly care for
her onto your address, all those extanuous circumstances surrounds her.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Who owns that? Where does responsibility lie for changing these
social determinants and helping that woman get into a state
of stability and health.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I think it is all of us. I think the
policies right, like what is the legislature doing, Like what
kind of medical infrastructure do we have in the United States?
Does the account for those things right, So like policies,
and then clinics as well. Right, clinics also have a
role to play in this, and that you can connect
(03:55):
and partner with organizations that have those resources. Right, make
sure that you're not just an isolated clinic that only
focuses on just the clinical You have to partner with organizations,
because your organizations in Dallas that do that. At Age HM,
we currently partner with Center for Survivors of Torture who
(04:16):
helps us address the social determinants of health for our patients,
things like partnering with Hope Cottage that does the parenting classes,
and even Dallas County just recently started a Martina Health program,
whether you're also helping to address those issues. So if
you are in a space like I am in a
community health center where you understand that you're funding is
(04:40):
kind of limited and you know that you can't address
all these issues, the best thing you can do for
your patients is partner find partners who will help you
address the other non clinical aspects that contribute to the
statistics that we're talking about.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So that's pre delivery. Take us to post delivery, where
these women are in the hospital receiving medical care, sometimes
complaining of complications, as we heard through the story of
Nicole Berryman's daughter Tierra, not being either heard, but being
dismissed and discharged, only to come back days later and
(05:16):
in her case, actually dying once she arrived there taken
to intensive care. What happens in those situations and this
is not an isolated incident. We've heard of others and
they continue to happen repeatedly. What's going on that this
is happening under the watch of medical professionals?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Absolutely, I mean, there's absolutely no excuse for that. When
a patient is under your care, you have a responsibility
to take every single complaint seriously and oftentime, Like the
scenario you just described is not an isolated event. It's
not an isolated incident. This is like a repetitive pattern
that usually happens among the African Americans. It's like when
(05:57):
you have a complaint's like, well, maybe it's just gas,
it's just sleep deprivation, maybe it's just this. Well, we
need to start changing the rhetoric here, We need to
start changing our mindset and our approach to care that
common illnesses do not present the same way across ethnic backgrounds,
right and when we go to medical school, the things
(06:19):
we're taught is in the context of not an African American,
It's in a context of like a white person. And
so when you then start treating a black person, do
you have the frame of reference? Do you know how
it presents in this population? Right? Like, it's not uncommon
for you to open a textbook and you show your rash. Well,
(06:39):
the rash is on a white skin, but then when
it's on my skin, what does it look like? So
when you see the same rash on someone that looks
like me, can you identify it? So again, it's not
just about the care that is happening at that moment
in the hospital. We need to take it back to
policies and how we're teaching and how we're training, and
(07:00):
how we're kind of like addressing those unconscious biases that
we don't even know we bring to the care. Because
we truly want to believe that a physician doesn't spend
over a decade of their life training to the intentionally
be biased against one group. I would like to believe
in humanity that like when we take the hypocritic, oh,
(07:23):
it means something that we're not intentionally doing this but
the reality the statistics is we are and so what
do we do about it? Like when a patient is
in a hospital, especially an African American patient who is
a new mom who's still in the peripartum period, has
a complain of a chest pain, it's not good. It
(07:44):
might be, but you have to assume, like, what is
the thing that would kill this woman. Let's make sure
that we've ruled that out, and then we can say, Okay,
it's just good.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
That's interesting because these depths too, are cutting across socio
economic lines, right, So sometimes you want to say, well,
is it a matter of you know, just being limited
by the amount of tests that their insurance will allow
and so forth. But we're looking at women from across
all socioeconomic levels that are being subjected and actually dying.
So how do you get before these educators in these
(08:20):
institutions to allow and encourage change in the way that
these lessons are taught so that they can become more sensitive.
I mean, how do you sensitize a professional to these
issues that could save the lives of black moms.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Because the sensitization doesn't start at a level of professional like,
we have to address it before you become a physician,
we have to address it in the policies that we
make in how we do our medical education. We have
to address it in our plants rooms well before you
are in the world practicing as an independent practitioner. And
(08:57):
so that is going to be again, it's going to
take all of us. It's going to take me, it's
going to take you. It's going to take policy. It's
going to take our current practitioners, is going to take
our policy makers, is going to take our school administrators.
It's going to take black moms and black people speaking
up and like hey, like where am I in your textbook?
Like where are where are we in like the education
(09:20):
that you're providing to your students, to your learners.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, you know you say that, And I'm automatically reminded
of the era in which we are in socially, where
we are now seeing this pushback against any kind of
education that distinguishes any kind of racial difference and so forth.
How likely are these changes then, considering this current political
and social climate, how likely are these changes to take place?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I want to be optimistic to say that the disparity
that we see in the African American or the black
maternal mortality rate is not coincidence. It's not a reflection
of politics. This is real life. This are real people,
(10:09):
and we know the black mom is an anchor. She
is more than just a woman in her society. She
is the maha in chief of her community. And so
a decision to become pregnant should not be marred with
the possibility of mourning. This is real life. This is
real life. This is real life. And when a woman,
(10:30):
when a black woman is missing from her household, you
change the entire trajectory of her family or her community.
The fabric is not the same. And so when you
pull up the statistics and you know that the average
maternal mortality rate in America is eighteen per one hundred thousand,
but the black woman is fifty per one hundred thousand,
(10:51):
you can't argue with that. This is not talking about diversity, equiting, inclusion.
This is real life. This is not trying to pick
out This is real life. And so I would hope
that you know in our current political climate that everyone
is invested in reducing the maternal mortality rate. And you
cannot reduce the maternal mortality without reducing the black maternal
(11:16):
mortality rate, because that is the huge piece that is
skewing it to be in a high number. I mean,
when you think about the amount of money that we
as a country spend in healthcare and then you think
about our outcomes, I mean everyone should be invested in
that because the amount of money doesn't equate the result
we're getting. Among industrialized countries and high income countries, the
(11:40):
United States is at the bottom and yet to spend
the most. So if we're if we're in an error
where we're talking about efficiency and reducing you know, waste
and abuse and trying to be more efficient, what is
a more efficient way than targeting the high priority areas.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
That's very good. Let's lean on your expertise as a
healthcare maternal healthcare professional for a moment. What is the
perfect team for a woman who is pregnant looking to
make it through her maternal journey? What checklist can you
provide for her to at least prepare for best outcome.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
So that is a great question because that's a topic
that I talk about very very often with my team.
It's like, what should the team compose of? What should
the composition of a team that ensures a good outcome
for a mom look like and again it is multidisciplinary.
Right well, before pregnancy, we need to make sure that
(12:42):
all of our medical comorbidities are sort of optimized. So
your journey to a healthy pregnancy and postpartum period starts
with your community. It starts at the community. It starts
with the kind of food you're eating, the quality of
air that you're breathing, right, like, all these things that
has nothing to do with the pregnancy. That's why it starts.
(13:04):
And then you need access to care or your good
primary care to make sure that your hypertension and your
diabetes is well controlled, well before we even talk about pregnancy.
And then we need to make sure that if there's
any other comorbidities that's in the picture, is there any
psychiatric component, like any mental health that we need to address,
(13:24):
all of that, making sure that your children have access
to care while you're coming to your visits, So all
of that starts before pregnancy, because not often do you
see women in pregnancy Like I'm sorry, I know you're
saying that you recommend me going to the hospital, but
I have two other children and I don't have help,
And like when I come to my medical appointments, I
(13:46):
don't know where to keep the kids. And then we
also talk about clinic policies, like when I started, if
my clinic children weren't allowed, and I'm like, pregnancy is
a family affair, Like how can you expect her to
come to her clinic appointments and we don't provide childcare,
and then we say children are not allowed. We mix
that very quickly, and then moms are happy that, like
(14:07):
they don't have to worry about where to pull their
children while they're caring for themselves. So what does a
team look like? The team looks like providing all of
those au sureties and securities for or to pregnancy, and
then when it coming to pregnancy, meeting them where they
are ensuring that at that first visit that you're not
just focused on the clinical but you're focused on the
woman as a whole. Make sure you're doing some sort
(14:28):
of social determinants of health assessment. And that's where your
community health workers, your clinic navigators coming to place. Now
the clinician is not even another picture yet, this is
like another part of the team ensuring that all of
that's happening. And then when the clinician comes into the room,
making sure that you have like a good certified provider
(14:49):
that's qualified to take care of that woman, whether that's
a physician in opgyn, whether that's a midwife or ANOS practitioner, right,
and then that's part of the care team as well,
probably named like four teams members now, and then as
we go into the hospital, then you have another set
of providers there that's taking care of you in the
postpartum period. You need to make sure that your mental
(15:09):
health providers are part of that. Whether a woman has
overt depression or not, the immediate postpartum period is a
lot of emotions and anxiety, and so just making sure
that you have a team that checks it, even not
for anything to say, Mom, how are you doing mentally? Right?
I'm not saying that she needs to be hospitalized, it
needs to be in medication, but it needs to be
(15:30):
a component of mental health in the postpartum care.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
You mentioned a lot and you mentioned a lot of
people serving on teams at different stages of this journey,
which sounds wonderful, but it's quite adylic for a lot
of people who are just trying to make ends meet
and make it through the day. How do we in
the community support and shore up or show up for
(15:57):
the people. I mean, we're talking about fouls of women, yeah,
that are engaging in this every year. That's quite a
task for each one, yes, But.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
When you have partnerships and when you have real relationship
with different organizations, the process is smooth. We do this
every single day at each term health and we're freederally
qualified health center. Like when a woman comes in to
my clinic and she's pregnant, we have all of these
access and when she comes to the clinic, she has
(16:33):
access to pediatricians and a clinic for her children. Right,
she has access to behavioral health for mental health services,
she has access to pharmacy, she has access to lab
so she's not going here for lab, draw going here
for pharmacy, going here for it's only one stop shop.
And then when she has transportation issues, my nurse is
able to connect with her to make sure that she
can come too. And we're community health center. But the
(16:55):
reason why I'm invested in this because I know the population.
I serve a more women often at the margin of access,
and I know that if I only focus on the
political I will miss the picture and she will be
a part of that statistics.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Can we multiply you, Can we clone you and just
put you in every city and community in the world,
and we make certain your heart is available to every
woman who needs that kind of care, because it seems
like that's part of the answer, is making certain two
healthcare providers are paying attention and that the right kind
of care is available for every mom who is expecting
(17:31):
and wanting to experience that journey safely.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I know that when it comes to care, they're not
treated like sopari, They're not treated like they're a charity case,
and that the quality of care they get is no
different than my counterpart in private practice. Very important, Like
I say it all the time, I'm in Obgi and
clinting that just happens to be a federally qualified health center.
(17:56):
So when you walk into my lobby, it's not the
roof is not caven in and the smells horrendous and
the chair is broken. It's it's a standard clinic that
just happens to serve this population.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
What should an expecting mom or even a conceiving mom
look for in a health care provider?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Oh, you need to look for a partner. Your health
care provider must be willing to be a partner in
this journey. I refuse to come into this relationship as
a dictator or as a parent child dynamic. Refuse because
I understand that life is happening as you're seeing me, right,
(18:36):
And so when a patient comes, I'm like, okay, so
anything bothering you today? You want to talk about? Like anything,
you know, I'm like from the very first of them,
I'm like, okay, so we're gonna be this is gonna
be a ten month relationship. Okay, it's gonna be long.
So we when you come in this room, this is
a safe space, and I want to know what's bothering you?
Like it can be like baby's fine, but like when
(18:59):
I still at the door this morning, there was a
crazy drive on the road that like almost around my hood.
I had nothing to do with it. So we always
have time for like what's bothering you today? So now
my moms who comes to me every time, they're like, okay,
doctor abe, so what is bothering me today is? And
then we talk, we have a many like therapy session
and it's fine. So and they appreciate that, right, Like
(19:21):
you need to have a partner that understands that your
pregnancy journey is ten months long, right, and like in
that ten months, we need to build aenf relationship that
you can tell me things that you think has nothing
to do with this, because the moment I hear that, oh,
you're walking to clinic and it's just like, oh, like,
what was bothering me today? Was like when I try
(19:41):
to catch the bus, I missed the boss, And so
I'm like, I'm like, okay, right, you think we're just chatting,
but now the next thing we're going to talk about
is how we're going to make sure that that doesn't
happen again. And then when you have any questions, knowing
that like there's no question too silly, no question too
big that we can't talk about.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
If you could talk to anyone in the whole circle
of people involved a network involved with maternal health, in
particular black maternal health, who would you speak to most
and what message would you give to them?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I would speak to the physicians more, the providers more,
because I think that often times, and it's not our fault,
it's the way we're trained in school. You're trained to
be so clinically based and clinically focused that we don't
spend enough time talking about the person as a whole.
(20:37):
It's like, Okay, you have hypertension, and this is the
medicine done right. There's no room for like understanding the
circumstance around that. And often times that's what pushes patients away,
is that it comes to you and like sometimes you
know they're looking at the patient. You look at their vitals,
like your blood picture is really high today, you need
to go to the hospital. This is a medicine and.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Done, but you didn't start to think about that it
have the kids. You need' st have to think about
what's going to happen when you're in the hospital for
two days. And when the woman says, I can't go
to the hospital because of my other kids, what are
you documenting in your chart? Are you putting the word
non compliant in the chart? Because then the next doctor
who sees her in.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
The hospital is going to read your note and walk
into that room with that attitude that she's not compliant,
and just there you have likely made sure that she's
part of the statistics. So the people who I'm not
saying that my counterparts are bad, they're not like they're
truly committed excellent physicians who we just don't get enough
training in. The Other part of caring for a patient
(21:40):
is that if I wanted to see something and then
he's like, I need you to give more grace. There
needs to be room. There needs to be room for
life in the middle of your care. And like when
you're documenting, be kind. I know you're first trated because
every time she comes her blood pressure is high. But
her blood pressure might be high because she's catching the
(22:02):
bus and she's trying to hustle in and when she
comes in, the anime's trying to get their job done.
So the moment she sits down, ignoring that she needs
maybe five minutes to just catch your breath, takes her
blood pressure. Blood pressure is high. Then you come in
and you're like, oh, high blood pressure to the hospital.
Then she tells you she can't go. Then you document this.
It's like, take a moment and let there be enough grace.
(22:23):
Let there be enough grace to go around. I'm trying
to see the patients from from where they're coming and
what they have to offer apart from just the clinical
So I would speak to my counterparts more because I
think that we oftentimes have the power to change the
narrative around patients. How you document matters because the next
doctor who reads that note is going to then forge
(22:44):
that opinion about that patient before they ever meet them.
And so when they call me the room, they're like befold,
the patient's like, oh, I'm sorry, I come to like, okay,
now w'ere sign out against medical advice, right, And so
then that just gets perpetrated over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I wish we really could clone you. It's been right
to talk with you today.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Thank you so much, and.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Thank you for your work, but more so your heart.
It really has been encouraging and inspiring to talk with
you today, So hopefully we'll hear more from you as
we continue to delve into this issue as well.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Absolutely, absolutely, thank you so much again for the time
and the effort you put to plan this and for
taking the time to talk to me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, very good. Thank you for all you do.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Thank you
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