Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Your host Grant Smith filling in for Benjamin Albright as
(00:03):
he is covering the NFL Combine out in Indianapolis. Thanks
to Ryan Edwards for joining us earlier in the show
from the combine as well. Also, George Sedano covers the
NBA for ESPN.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
He joined us a little bit earlier as well.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
You can find those interviews up at KWA Colorado.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Here.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
In just a couple of minutes, right now, we're going
to head out to the KA Common Spirit Health Hotline.
Bring on our guy, Ryan Michael, time to go inside
the numbers.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Ryan, how are you today?
Speaker 4 (00:30):
Man? Doing well?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Graham, how are you doing well?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
You know last week we discussed your article ranking the
forty greatest quarterbacks of all time.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Still can find that up at Kacolorado dot com.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'd like to circle back a little bit because we
were giving you a hard time on some of your rankings,
but I'd like to pick your brain a little more
about the methodology kind of how you go into ranking
these quarterbacks. Can give us a little more background on
how the how the numbers play into everything and your
methodology on it.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Sure thing, sure of everything? Really? So I always say
the quick answer is my measure is totality of on
field performance in relation to context with playing situation. And
so it's not just statistic it's not just win glosses
and rings. It's not just regular season performance, playoff performance,
(01:19):
championship game performance, or voted on awards. It's really a
combination of all of those things. Because I don't believe
in it ultimate team sport, which football is, there's any
such thing as individual stats, awards, win and sports championships.
So it's always a tremendous challenge to separate individual performance
from team performance. So statistically speaking, we could rank quarterbacks
(01:43):
by take your measure completion percentage, touchdown passes, adjust the
tech guards per attempt. With analytics, we could rank quarterbacks
by tell a TVR Pro Football Focused Grade EPA DVOA,
you make the pick. And because there's no perfect, all
encompassing metric for visual play at the position, one has
to be able to process all of that information in
(02:05):
conjunction with all twenty two film study to arrive really
at a subjective conclusion. I'll never claim that my criteria
is perfect. I don't think there's any such thing as
perfect in this subjective space. But I'll argue that my
criteria is far more measurably consistent, and it's the end
product of more time and research than I suspect most
(02:25):
people put in annually. I log at least one hundred
hours when I'm updating my rankings, and they're doing it
for eight years now, conservatively, I would say I've put
one thousand hours more into this. And so I'll give
you an example of the difference between narrative and on
field performance. And I like to use Tom Brady as
an example oftentimes because people refer to him as the goat,
(02:48):
therefore he should be the measuring stick. As we discussed
last week, I put him at number three on my
top forty. When people make the argument for Tom Brady
is the greatest of all time, the first point they
usually make it's a fact that he won seven Super
Bowls and made ten Super Bowl appearances. So you look
at that seven and three record and you say to yourself,
it's not quite Jordan Ness, it's not quite four and
(03:11):
oh the way Joe Montana performed on that stage. But
it's a good number. And I'm going to give you
a handful of examples. Grant how you could change an
individual play in nine out of his ten Super Bowl runs.
It would change that seven and three record. You go
back to two thousand and one. Imagine, hypothetically Adam vin
Terry's game winning field goal is blocked in return for
(03:32):
a touchdown. That would make Brady Owen one on the
super Bowl stage. If the same thing happened in two
thousand and three, he would be own two in two
thousand and four. If Jonovan McNabb throws a ninety five
yard touchdown in the final seconds of that Super Bowl,
however unlikely, that would make Brady own three two thousand
and seven went the same way he be onn four.
Twenty eleven, went the same he'd be on and five
(03:53):
in twenty fourteen. If instead of a Malcolm Butler interception,
there was a game winning touchdown passed by Russell Wilson.
He would then be he owns six in two thousand
and six. If Matt Ryan wins the coin toss, shopping
to get possession and return the kickoff for a touchdown.
Brady's own seven twenty seventeen the Loston Nichols and the Eagles.
If that were the same, he'd ben eight. You go
to two thousand and eighteen if in the AFC Championship Game,
(04:17):
Brady loses the coin toss and the Chiefs return to
kick return for a touchdown, He's O and eight, which
brings you all the way to twenty twenty.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
That was the.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Dominant thirty one to nine win. He would have been
one to eighty Super Bowls without changing a single play.
And ask yourself, if Tom Brady was one in eight
in Super Bowls, how would we view his legacy?
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Well, Ryan, you know what, every quarterback that plays the
quarterback position, they are different and they come with a
different skill set. So when you're breaking down and using
your criteria, how do you apply that to some of
the new school quarterbacks like Mahomes. You think about Jalen Hurts,
Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, and of course I mean Grant Smith,
(05:00):
his guy on the Cincinnati Joe burrowber So how do
you make all of that make sense with these new
style quarterbacks we see?
Speaker 6 (05:08):
Now?
Speaker 4 (05:09):
It's a good question, Nick, and my criteria is consistent
whether we're talking ancient NFL history, past NFL history, are
modern active NFL history. And so I'll come at it
from two fronts. Since this is an inside the number segment.
I did it chart a few months ago where I
separated first team All Pro selections and Super Bowl winners
(05:30):
and I ranked them by adjusted net yards per attempt
regular season plus postseason combined. I updated that data to
include this year, and so what you might be surprised
to learn is that in twenty two out of the
twenty five seasons, the first team All Pro selections rated
higher than the Super Bowl winners. Seventeen of the twenty
five Super Bowl winners were outside of the top five,
(05:52):
in six of the twenty five Super Bowl winners were
outside of the top ten. So that means roughly twenty
five percent of the time the person win the Super
Bowls not even playing the position at the top ten level,
and the vast majority there was seventy percent of the
time the person winning the Super Bowls playing outside of
the top five. And so that was the case with
Jalen Hurts this year. To your point of how Grant's guide,
(06:15):
Joe Burrow right completed seventy point six percent of his
pass He led the NFL with four thousand, nine hundred
eighteen passing yards forty three touchdown passes. He obviously didn't
have the defensive support to his team didn't even make
the postseason. But I would argue, take your measure adjusted
net yards for a ten touchdown passes efficiency metrics. There's
a good argument to be made that Joe Burrow last year,
(06:36):
without even qualifying for the postseason, produced a better single
season then about ten of the last fourteen Super Bowl winners.
It was better than Jalen Hurts this year. He was
certainly better than Patrick Mahomes last year. And so whether
we're talking about mobile duel treight quarterbacks or whether we're
talking traditional pocket passers, my measure and my criteria remains
the same totality of on field performance in relation to
(06:59):
contact of planes.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Man, I love getting nerdy with Ryan Michael. I had
the Ryan Michael on Twitter. You can see all of
his breakdowns for all things football. But we're talking about
his forty greatest Quarterbacks of All Time list. You can
find that also at Kowacolorado dot com. So we all
agree in football, the mission of every team is winning.
Only one team per season, per season can bring home
(07:22):
that Lombardi Trophy. How do you reconcile the gap between
individual accomplishments and team accomplishments?
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Good question, and as I outlined when responding to Nick,
generally what we see is roughly a quarter of the
time the person at poicting Lombardi Trophy is not even
a top ten quarterback, and roughly three quarters of the
time they're usually somewhere outside of the top five. So
most quarterbacks are whin the Super Bowl are very good,
(07:49):
rarely are they a great. And from a historical perspective,
I think the advent of the Super Bowl and the
spectacle it's morphed into has changed the way that stands
and even reporters and analysts who would position if you
go all the way back to the nineteen forties, the
quarterback rivalry at that time was Sammy Baugh, who won
two championships versus Said Luckman, who won four. At the time,
(08:12):
Sammy Baugh was considered pretty much universally the greatest of
all time. He had the better numbers, he had the
better film, He was a better individual player. Luckman was
great in his own right that had superior team support.
Fast forward to the nineteen fifties, it wasn't quite the
rivalry that Manning and Brady had become, but people spoke
about John Unitas and Bart Starr Uniteds had won three championships,
(08:33):
and really the first two are the ones where he
was great. Nineteen seventy was kind of similar to twenty
fifteen Paid Manning, but bart Starr had five NFL championships,
two of them were the first two Super Bowls, and
there was very few people who had argued bart Starr
over John Unitis, who was regarded up to that point
as the greatest of all time. He had better films,
he had better numbers, he had more individual accolades. Things
(08:55):
changed in the nineteen eighties where you could clearly see
from almost the moment he set foot on the field,
Dan Marina was the most talented, dominant quarterback in the
National Football League. He goes against Joe Montana in his
second season and he gets blown away. Joe Montana clearly
great in his own right, but the forty nine ers
were significantly more talented than the Miami Dolphins, and at
(09:18):
that point you had Montana by the end of his career,
four Super Bowls to zero for Marino and at that
point Grant. The Super Bowl had evolved to having celebrities
that you started to have the beginning of those halftime shows,
John Candy in the stands, and so the narrative started
to change to super Bowl rings perhaps being that measure.
In the nineties, it kind of fell back to Hanfield performance.
(09:40):
Most people would say Brett farv John Lay Dan Marino
were better than Troy than who won three and for
the majority of the Manning Grady rivalry when both were active,
it was usually Manning who was regarded as the better
of the two. Maybe six out of ten people said that.
It certainly wasn't a universal conclusion, but it wasn't until
Peyton Manning retired, which is what was necessary for Tom
(10:02):
Brady to dominate the American Football Conference and later Drew
Brees to retire, to Tom to play a little bit
longer and break those records. So by the time Tom
retired with seven rings, that has been the measure, and
the Super Bowl is obviously morphed into a spectacle unlike
anything anyone could have expected. And I don't think it's
a good measure. The truth is, most quarterbacks when Super
Bowls are very good, but very rarely are they.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Right Ran, you know what, I'm glad we have you
on the show because I've been having this conversation and
this debate with so many people, and you tell me,
like in nineteen seventy eight, that's when the NFL went
from fourteen games to I believe like sixteen games. And
with that being said, that's more games, more opportunities. And
we've seen that the league has turned into a quarterback
(10:47):
driven league where teams are looking to throw more than
run the ball to have balanced because of the value
of the running back position.
Speaker 6 (10:54):
Do you think that the league now needs.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
To put an asterisks by some of these quarterbacks who
have play I mean all beyond I mean sixteen games,
seventeen games, and at some point the league is going
to get to eighteen nineteen games. So do we need
to statistically put asterisks by the numbers that they produce.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
That's a great question. And for me, I've never really
been jazz nick by raw numbers, even if you go
back and you read my work ten fifteen years ago.
I was always a strong advocate for adjusting statistics for eras.
So we're a quarterback ranked during on a season by
season basis and then in totality at the time that
they retired matters more to me than the raw numbers
(11:36):
now right, because you can look to Joe Montana, who
sure I believe, two hundred and seventy three touchdown pass
in his career, so he was top five at the
end of his career. At some point in the very
near future, Derek Carr is going to a clap that
it puts Joe Montana in terms of career touchdown passes,
so he won't come anywhere close to ranking top five
at the time of his retirement. So I don't know
(11:58):
if an asterisk is really something that's in order. I
think it's really just a matter of adjusting that data
for era, which you can do, and a very simple
way to do that is just look at where quarterback
ranked at the time that they retired. Don't really put
too much stock into the inflated modern day numbers. Tom
Brady led the NFL with twenty eight touchdown passes in
(12:19):
two thousand and two. He threw over forty touchdown passes
in twenty twenty, he did not lead the NFL, so
his two thousand and two number was actually more impressive
than the twenty twenty number, even though that wouldn't necessarily
be reflected in the raw data.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Well, one of those guys that was only playing twelve
games a lot of his career was Auto Graham before
all our time? How did you adjust the numbers for him?
And for those that didn't know how great he was,
explain why he's in the top ten on your forty
Greatest All time Quarterbacks?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Ano Graham was. I'm almost out of loss for words
because his resume really is overwhelming if winning is your measure.
He spent ten years playing professional football, so from nineteen
forty six to nineteen forty nine he played in the
American Football Conference, which produced the Cleveland Browns, the Baltimore
Colts to San Francisco forty nine ers. Those teams ended
(13:15):
up merging with the National Football League in nineteen fifty.
So from nineteen forty six to nineteen fifty five, he
led the Cleveland Browns to the championship game of whatever league.
He competed in every single season, and he won seven
out of ten championships. So people will talk about Brady
having the most Super Bowl rings, Otto Grimm also won
seven championships and he did it in only ten seasons
(13:36):
versus twenty one as a full time starter for Tom Brady.
So as far as winning, he's absolutely peerless, and he
was dominant in both leagues. From a statistical standpoint, at
the time of his retirement, he had a conser rating
of eighty six point six for a guy who played
from nineteen forty six to nineteen fifty five. He led
the NFL in passing in forty seven, forty eight to
(13:57):
forty nine, and you could say, okay, well, that would
be all American football. He had the NFL in passing
in nineteen fifty two and nineteen fifty three. He was
dominant anywhere that he played, and he was an integral
part of Paul Brown's offense. So I looked at Paul
Brown as being arguably the greatest offensive genius the game
has ever seen. If there's a way to be able
to adjust that for Era, he was the first person
(14:18):
to put a radio in a quarterback helmet. It was
an experiment that didn't last very long. The Auto Grand
Chicks bullboxes must a statistical standpoint and a team achievement standpoint.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Man, I feel like we could break down this list
for three hours, but we're out of time in this segment. Ryan,
we appreciate you as always and thanks for getting nerdy
with us on Broncos.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Country to Night anytime, guys, that's d Ryan Michael.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
You can find his work at d Ryan Michael on
Twitter and x and you can find his forty Greatest
Quarterbacks of All Time the article he posted up to
Koacolorado dot com. We'll react to that when we come
back and well have the NFL six pack on Broncos
Country Night. Right here on KOAA fifty am ninety four
to one FM.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I'm your guest host.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Grant Smith, filling in for Benjamin Albright while he's in
Indianapolis covering the Combine and filling in on KOA Sports
with Ryan Edwards, who's also out there and joined us
earlier in the show thanks to him, and also George
Sodano covers the NBA for ESPN and Ryan Michael in.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
The last segment. And if you missed any of.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
That, you can catch up on it later on the
free and totally awesome iHeartRadio app. And you can now
set KOA as a preset on our free and redesigned
iHeartRadio app like.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
You have in your car.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I've done so with KOA Kbco and my very own
podcast taking it for granted the podcast so that you
can check out anytime on that free iHeartRadio app as well.
Our iHeartRadio app users are loving the new industry first features,
So go ahead and do it. Nick set Kowa as
a preset today on your iHeartRadio app. As a man,
(15:55):
I knew it would be yes. You know, we were
talking to Ryan Michael before that break and I thought
it was enter.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I'd love to get your take on this.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
He was talking about how he kind of the methodology
behind his forty greatest Quarterbacks of All Time and you
can find that article up on our website, Kawa Colorado
dot com. But he was talking about individual individual accomplishments,
rush team accomplishments, and you know how everything in the
NFL should be about winning the Lombardi Trophy. And we
heard Cam Newton come out a couple of weeks ago,
(16:22):
who is not on the top forty quarterbacks of all
time lists from Ryan Michael, but we heard him say
that he would not trade one of his MVPs.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
For a Super Bowl trophy.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I'd love to get your thoughts on that, based on
you know, your time playing in the NFL. Would you
have rather been an All Pro player or would you
have rather won a.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Super Bowl with the Broncos All Pro?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Really it sounds selfish, and I didn't disagree with Cam
when he said it, because when you think about that,
there's a number of players that win Super Bowls, right,
and that's some That group is even smaller when you
think about the number of guys who won MVPs.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
Right now, let me, I'm just joshing, but.
Speaker 5 (17:09):
I'll take the Super Bowl if it was MVP, that'll
be different, right, But I know what Cam is talking about.
Speaker 6 (17:17):
MVP seems as though it's.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
A singular award, right, And Cam went out and he
had a heck of a season, so and so he
was kind of like that offensive guy.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
You had to stop him, Superman Cam.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
Well, when you win as a team.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
I know it sounds great that I'm going against a
whole team concept, but I look at it like this one.
Speaker 6 (17:40):
Cam being an MVP puts him in rare air.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
You can play in the league four years, five years,
teen years. Never get inside that room. And that's the
velvet room, not the red velvet right with the velvet road. No, no, no,
that's that purple velvet rope.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Right.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
There's only a handful of guys actually get a chance
us to see it.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
So I agree with Cam, and I know it.
Speaker 5 (18:03):
Once again, it sounds selfish, but Cam is saying it
because he played in the biggest of games. He was
in that position. Now, if he was never in that position,
maybe he would have changed his mind. But he played
in the Super Bowl right right, So that's why he
has a frame of mind that he has. I would
rather have that MVP because you are remembered as an MVP.
Speaker 6 (18:22):
Out of all the players that played that year in
the NFL.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
But he ain't a Super Bowl champion because of our
Denver Broncos. Hey you ready for a drink, Let's get it.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Time for the NFL six pack. It's time for the
NFL six path.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
I'm going to.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Insight information you can't find anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I know six the top six NFL headline.
Speaker 6 (18:47):
What Colts to GM.
Speaker 7 (18:51):
Chris Ballard made headlines earlier today when he said that
the Colts will have an open competition at quarterback between
Anthony Richardson and be determined veteran. Are the Colts being
too impatient with Richardson's development? And who do you think
the Colts should add to compete with Richardson?
Speaker 5 (19:10):
Well, I don't know who the Colts will add to
compete with.
Speaker 6 (19:13):
Richardson.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
But I think in my opinion that this is the
NFL and it's all about competition. You should not be
fearful of your job, and putting someone in the place
and not bringing competition makes them complacent. And we've seen
what complacency can do to a bunch of individuals. And also,
by the way, I mean, why should the Colts be
(19:34):
one percent all in on Anthony Richardson. Well, remember in
the game against the Texans, he was like, oh, I'm tired,
because he's tired, So now you question his level of dedication.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
He had moments to sit out that he came back
and he played.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Well, you need to make sure that fire is still there,
so you need adequate competition.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, and I like that Chris Paller came out and
said this so early into the offseason, you know, because
he's light that fire in Anthony Richardson, you hope and
if this doesn't light a fire in Anthony richards and
then you know you don't have the guy. And I
thought Benjamin Albright, who usually sits in this chair, made
a good point earlier on KOA Sports about maybe bringing
in Trey Lance. You know, we talked about him last
(20:15):
night in the six pack. Maybe give him a chance
to really compete for a starting job in the NFL.
Speaker 7 (20:20):
I love that idea, but I wonder, you know, is
it somewhat of an empty threat coming from Chris Ballard
here where you know Trey Lance is one of the
best options available out there, you know, Kirk Cousins, off
an Achilles, Aaron Rodgers and all the headache that comes
with him, or probably the others.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
It's a weaker class. I agree that's a good point.
Seekers who.
Speaker 7 (20:40):
Chiefs GM Brad Veach and thank you Grant. But Chiefs
GM Brett Veach made it clear today that the Chiefs
are expecting Travis Kelsey to return for next season. Is
Kelsey a player that should still scare the division rival
Broncos as well as the Chief's other rivals? Or has
he declined too much to be a real concern and
other wrong side of thirty guy?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I can feel that in the wording of that question
as well.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
No, man, there's no reason to fear Travis Kelsey. I mean,
once again, he can't outrun my six year old, right,
So the idea is that you get in his face,
you clap him down, you put hands on him, and
if he's gonna beat you, he's gonna beat you with
running in timing, and you hope that maybe your defense
can actually get home and you have.
Speaker 6 (21:24):
Ed Rush's who worked their assault.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
But no, man, I mean Travis Kelcey did a lot
earlier on in his career. He's where a lot of people,
a lot of players, and I can speak to this.
I've been there myself. You're not as good as you
were five years earlier.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
What's the Toby Keith song.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm
as good once as I ever was. I think Travis
Kelcey still has a little bit in the tank, but
you're right, he has declined in performance, and we saw
that with Andy Reid's game plans earlier in the season,
when Rashid Rice was still healthy. They were using him
in a lot of those places that they used to
use Travis kelce I do think I'm not scared of him,
but I do think you still have to be fearful
(22:03):
of the Chiefs as a whole until you knock him
off that pedestal of winning the AFC West every year.
Speaker 6 (22:08):
Fully agree.
Speaker 7 (22:09):
You know, at the Kelsey two years ago, he was
kind of budgeted throughout the regular season, turned it on
in the postseason.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
This year, felt like he couldn't even turn it on
in the postseason.
Speaker 8 (22:18):
Hoy Bengals GM Duke Tobin earlier today, when speaking to
the media, said that Cincinnati plans to extend Jamar, Chase
t Higgins and Trey Hendrickson.
Speaker 7 (22:31):
He also added, I want t Higgins on my team.
Our preference is a long term agreement. Will work hard
to get that done, and he also said he's optimistic
the deal gets done.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Just about a half.
Speaker 7 (22:43):
Hour ago, though, t Higgins tweeted out the cap emoji,
which is the koa's gen Z correspondent.
Speaker 6 (22:49):
I'll let people know is a way for the youth to.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Say, that's a lie.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (22:55):
So what do you guys make of Duke Tobin's comments?
Do you think they'll be able to bring back that
trio of costly veterans and who do you feel least
confident returns?
Speaker 5 (23:08):
Well, you try to make sure that you can bring
those guys back in with the cap going up, which
I looked at it as though maybe t Higgins is
talking about the salary cap. Not no dismissing things saying
cap but if the salary cap going up, this a
possibility that they can work this out. Joe Burrow is
already on record stating that he's willing to do whatever
(23:29):
it takes to make this happen, and that has.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
Even taken a little haircut off his salary.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
So if he's willing to do that, the team being
as cheap as they are, then I say t Higgins
still remains in the Bengals uniform.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, and you know, I'd love to see my guy,
Joe Burr, you know, go with the Tom Brady mindset
of we're going to take a little less money to
keep all our guys together, and I hope and the
gen Z lingo there's no cap In Duke Topin's comment before.
Speaker 7 (24:00):
Duke Tobin made some more headlines today when he said
we when asked about running backs going high in the draft,
he said, can.
Speaker 6 (24:07):
A running back go number one overall?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (24:09):
I guess if Walter Payton was in this draft, I might.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Think about taking him number one overall.
Speaker 7 (24:16):
What do the two of you make of Duke Tobin's
of these Duke toven comments and do you think we'll
ever see a running back get drafted number one?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Overall. Ever, again, for what it's worth, we.
Speaker 7 (24:25):
Haven't seen it happen since nineteen ninety five with Kajohna Carter,
and it's happened just twice over the last forty years.
Speaker 6 (24:32):
Well, yeah, there's a possibility that it can happen. It
all depends on the team selecting.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
How do they value that quarterback and that quarterback running
back and they see them flourishing.
Speaker 6 (24:41):
In their particular offense.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
And that would means though a team would have to
be established at.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
The quarterback position and.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Already established with a couple of offensive linemen the black
in front of him.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
So it is not too far.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
Gone to think that a team can't actually do it.
Speaker 6 (24:55):
But I think with all this talk about the quarterback
position that has changed reception. But I'll say this, look
at this past season.
Speaker 5 (25:03):
We've seen running backs come a lot, and the teams
that survived they moved on and advanced of the Super
Bowl and ultimately won it. Those teams did something very
well and that was run the ball.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Run the damn ball. Yeah, I think, I mean, I
don't know. I think this is a ridiculous statement from
Duke Tobin. I mean, knowing how Walter Payton played in
his career like you have the value of looking back
on time and being like, oh, I'm gonna get a
guy that's going to be a Hall of Fame running back,
and I still wouldn't take him at number one. But
to your point, quarterbacks, you know, are always the sexy
(25:36):
thing to pick at the top of the draft, but
you never know what a team's circumstances could be going forward.
Maybe they have their franchise guy in place, he gets
hurt at the beginning of the season, and you're like, hey,
we've got our franchise guy coming back next year, let's
give another weapon. And we've seen the resurgence of the
running game just like you said.
Speaker 7 (25:51):
Nick, Yeah, twenty nineteen we saw one go number two
overall with Saquon, So maybe not that far fetched. And
I think it's interesting this year saw the increased value
of the running back, but it was also kind of
the running back super valuable when you have all the other.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Pieces in place.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Five.
Speaker 7 (26:09):
Sean Payton said earlier today that bo Nicks was dealing
with turf toe during this season. It was also reported
about a month ago that bo Nix was dealing with
a fractured back and playing through that down the stretch
this season, do you find these reports of bo Nix
gritting it out through injury to be more impressive or
more concerning considering these injuries or maybe starting to pile up?
(26:30):
And do you think these injuries might be the reason
we didn't see more QB run game down the stretch?
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Man, this is the NFL. You can't put players in
boogle rat now. I know we watched the Pro Bowl
and let's turn into flag football for the games when
the regular season will never turn into that. Now when
you see he about all these injuries of Bowl, like
you're talking about the turf, So then it was a
fractured bet.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
To me, that says a lot about the player and
being able to show a lot.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Of grit and push through those tough situations, because that's.
Speaker 6 (26:57):
What the game is about.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
We know injuries, and we know the fact that guys
are hurt, they sound the same or they're a lot different.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, And I like to a point in the second
part of your question about if that took away from
the run game from the QB down the stretch, but
and maybe it did. I never even really thought about that.
But this is just like when the back fractures came out.
This makes me love Lo Knicks like this makes me know,
this is my dude, This is my quarterback for the
next ten to twelve, fifteen years hopefully, you know, even
(27:27):
though he is on the wrong side of twenty five now.
Like Zack Seeger has mentioned earlier, but this is stuff.
This is what you want to hear as a fan. Man,
This is what you want from your quarterback. You know,
you have Broncos lore of John Elway and the helicopter
play tough and injuries out and still going out and
winning games like this is what you want as a
Broncos fan. I love hearing these stories about bo Nicks.
Speaker 7 (27:49):
I well, we agree that in his comments, like you
mentioned earlier about you know, making the playoffs was nuts
and we've got.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Higher aspirations of that.
Speaker 7 (27:56):
Right, everything he says makes you think this kid's wired
the exact right way.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
Six a little more Broncos for you here.
Speaker 7 (28:05):
NFL Network listed the Denver Broncos as an ideal fit
for Chiefs free agent safety Justin Reid. Yesterday we talked
about how ESPN listed the Broncos and Chiefs linebackers soon
to be free agent Nick Bolten, as I deal fits together.
Should the Broncos try to proach these rival players in
this manner? And which edition between Bolton and Justin Reid
(28:28):
would you prefer to see in orange and blue?
Speaker 6 (28:30):
Woo, that's a tough from right there.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
Look, I'll say this, adding guys from within your division,
he never failed because you're getting a little piece of
the organization. In this case, you're geting a little piece
of the Chiefs that have been really difficult for the
Broncos to be And then when you look at what
the Broncos need help tight end, run it back, it's
not live marker safety. I mean, if you can't get
(28:54):
Nick Bolton, you can add Reid here because idea is
take away, give more possessions of bolt Knicks, either the
Russian you go.
Speaker 6 (29:01):
You can't be wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah, And I know we've been talking a lot about
Nick Bolton in the last couple of days, but I
still think this linebacking corps. Even though Zach seekers sinks
Alex Singleton is too old to be a good linebacker
in this league anymore, and he complains about mistackles even
though he has one hundred and fifty of him every
year When he's healthy, I think we need another safety.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I think if we can have Riley.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Moss on one side, the defensive player of the year
Pat Certean on the other, you've got Brandon Jones, who
played really well this year, and then you get Justin Reid.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Like that is a lockdown secondary.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
And with how pass happy this league is, you know,
you said that we're going back to the running game
a little bit more, but it's still not like the
old days.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
We're still throwing the ball round a lot.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
If you have that secondary, this defense is going to
be out of this world. And Justin Reid's so perfect too,
you know, Vance Joseph has very interchangeable asks of his
two Saints rights, and I think.
Speaker 7 (29:57):
Justin Reid and Brandon Jones would be a really nice
fit together where you they can both attack going forward,
they can both drop back and coverage and be effective players.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
There. Yeah, there you go. That's your NFL six pack.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
You know this reminds me of but with you saying that, Zach,
your safeties need to be interchangeable, sometimes guys get stuck
into this mold. Well, I'm just a strong safety. I'm
just a free safety. And when you have that in
your scheme, you allow the offense to attack you with
that principle. And that's why when I play here with
John Lynch, we will rotate so that way, one guy
(30:28):
you may think that you're attacking the free safety, but
no you're not. And you need to have the ability
to attack for multiple levels because if you were to
add a guy like Reed and with Brandon Jones, you
can cover in the back end. But but the biggest
part is you've got two guys who can blit sue
as well.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yeah, and like you said, you know, whenever you're proaching
players from your rival teams and your division and that
team has dominated your division over the past ten years,
I mean, that's just good. That's just good news for everybody. Right,
You're going to get some inside scoops onto how the
Chiefs do things, maybe a little inside scoop into how
they game playing on offense, and maybe you can slow
them down a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I mean, I think any.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Chiefs player you can get, heck, sign one to the
practice squad off their practice squad. Who cares get some
of that inside information, you know.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
Usually that's how it happens leading up to a week
before you play a team.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yeah, get that third string quarterback off the practice squad.
Speaker 6 (31:19):
What what didn't like to do inside the red zone? Big
us put all that information today, kill him hit the
curve like two weeks later.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
By the way, you mentioned Justin Reid in this last
six pack story. I hear he may be joining Ryan
Edwards and Benjamin Albright on KOA Sports tomorrow. So just
a pro little programming note there, Nick, this was a
lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Once again.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
We'll have Steve Atwater the Hall of Famer and studio tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I'll talk to you then, man, say you to countries.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
You've been listening to Broncos country to night on KOA
A fifty am ninety
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Four to one FM News Talk Sports.
Your host Grant Smith filling in for Benjamin Albright as
(00:03):
he is covering the NFL Combine out in Indianapolis. Thanks
to Ryan Edwards for joining us earlier in the show
from the combine as well. Also, George Sedano covers the
NBA for ESPN.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
He joined us a little bit earlier as well.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
You can find those interviews up at KWA Colorado.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Here.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
In just a couple of minutes, right now, we're going
to head out to the KA Common Spirit Health Hotline.
Bring on our guy, Ryan Michael, time to go inside
the numbers.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Ryan, how are you today?
Speaker 4 (00:30):
Man? Doing well?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Graham, how are you doing well?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
You know last week we discussed your article ranking the
forty greatest quarterbacks of all time.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Still can find that up at Kacolorado dot com.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'd like to circle back a little bit because we
were giving you a hard time on some of your rankings,
but I'd like to pick your brain a little more
about the methodology kind of how you go into ranking
these quarterbacks. Can give us a little more background on
how the how the numbers play into everything and your
methodology on it.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Sure thing, sure of everything? Really? So I always say
the quick answer is my measure is totality of on
field performance in relation to context with playing situation. And
so it's not just statistic it's not just win glosses
and rings. It's not just regular season performance, playoff performance,
(01:19):
championship game performance, or voted on awards. It's really a
combination of all of those things. Because I don't believe
in it ultimate team sport, which football is, there's any
such thing as individual stats, awards, win and sports championships.
So it's always a tremendous challenge to separate individual performance
from team performance. So statistically speaking, we could rank quarterbacks
(01:43):
by take your measure completion percentage, touchdown passes, adjust the
tech guards per attempt. With analytics, we could rank quarterbacks
by tell a TVR Pro Football Focused Grade EPA DVOA,
you make the pick. And because there's no perfect, all
encompassing metric for visual play at the position, one has
to be able to process all of that information in
(02:05):
conjunction with all twenty two film study to arrive really
at a subjective conclusion. I'll never claim that my criteria
is perfect. I don't think there's any such thing as
perfect in this subjective space. But I'll argue that my
criteria is far more measurably consistent, and it's the end
product of more time and research than I suspect most
(02:25):
people put in annually. I log at least one hundred
hours when I'm updating my rankings, and they're doing it
for eight years now, conservatively, I would say I've put
one thousand hours more into this. And so I'll give
you an example of the difference between narrative and on
field performance. And I like to use Tom Brady as
an example oftentimes because people refer to him as the goat,
(02:48):
therefore he should be the measuring stick. As we discussed
last week, I put him at number three on my
top forty. When people make the argument for Tom Brady
is the greatest of all time, the first point they
usually make it's a fact that he won seven Super
Bowls and made ten Super Bowl appearances. So you look
at that seven and three record and you say to yourself,
it's not quite Jordan Ness, it's not quite four and
(03:11):
oh the way Joe Montana performed on that stage. But
it's a good number. And I'm going to give you
a handful of examples. Grant how you could change an
individual play in nine out of his ten Super Bowl runs.
It would change that seven and three record. You go
back to two thousand and one. Imagine, hypothetically Adam vin
Terry's game winning field goal is blocked in return for
(03:32):
a touchdown. That would make Brady Owen one on the
super Bowl stage. If the same thing happened in two
thousand and three, he would be own two in two
thousand and four. If Jonovan McNabb throws a ninety five
yard touchdown in the final seconds of that Super Bowl,
however unlikely, that would make Brady own three two thousand
and seven went the same way he be onn four.
Twenty eleven, went the same he'd be on and five
(03:53):
in twenty fourteen. If instead of a Malcolm Butler interception,
there was a game winning touchdown passed by Russell Wilson.
He would then be he owns six in two thousand
and six. If Matt Ryan wins the coin toss, shopping
to get possession and return the kickoff for a touchdown.
Brady's own seven twenty seventeen the Loston Nichols and the Eagles.
If that were the same, he'd ben eight. You go
to two thousand and eighteen if in the AFC Championship Game,
(04:17):
Brady loses the coin toss and the Chiefs return to
kick return for a touchdown, He's O and eight, which
brings you all the way to twenty twenty.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
That was the.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Dominant thirty one to nine win. He would have been
one to eighty Super Bowls without changing a single play.
And ask yourself, if Tom Brady was one in eight
in Super Bowls, how would we view his legacy?
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Well, Ryan, you know what, every quarterback that plays the
quarterback position, they are different and they come with a
different skill set. So when you're breaking down and using
your criteria, how do you apply that to some of
the new school quarterbacks like Mahomes. You think about Jalen Hurts,
Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, and of course I mean Grant Smith,
(05:00):
his guy on the Cincinnati Joe burrowber So how do
you make all of that make sense with these new
style quarterbacks we see?
Speaker 6 (05:08):
Now?
Speaker 4 (05:09):
It's a good question, Nick, and my criteria is consistent
whether we're talking ancient NFL history, past NFL history, are
modern active NFL history. And so I'll come at it
from two fronts. Since this is an inside the number segment.
I did it chart a few months ago where I
separated first team All Pro selections and Super Bowl winners
(05:30):
and I ranked them by adjusted net yards per attempt
regular season plus postseason combined. I updated that data to
include this year, and so what you might be surprised
to learn is that in twenty two out of the
twenty five seasons, the first team All Pro selections rated
higher than the Super Bowl winners. Seventeen of the twenty
five Super Bowl winners were outside of the top five,
(05:52):
in six of the twenty five Super Bowl winners were
outside of the top ten. So that means roughly twenty
five percent of the time the person win the Super
Bowls not even playing the position at the top ten level,
and the vast majority there was seventy percent of the
time the person winning the Super Bowls playing outside of
the top five. And so that was the case with
Jalen Hurts this year. To your point of how Grant's guide,
(06:15):
Joe Burrow right completed seventy point six percent of his
pass He led the NFL with four thousand, nine hundred
eighteen passing yards forty three touchdown passes. He obviously didn't
have the defensive support to his team didn't even make
the postseason. But I would argue, take your measure adjusted
net yards for a ten touchdown passes efficiency metrics. There's
a good argument to be made that Joe Burrow last year,
(06:36):
without even qualifying for the postseason, produced a better single
season then about ten of the last fourteen Super Bowl winners.
It was better than Jalen Hurts this year. He was
certainly better than Patrick Mahomes last year. And so whether
we're talking about mobile duel treight quarterbacks or whether we're
talking traditional pocket passers, my measure and my criteria remains
the same totality of on field performance in relation to
(06:59):
contact of planes.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Man, I love getting nerdy with Ryan Michael. I had
the Ryan Michael on Twitter. You can see all of
his breakdowns for all things football. But we're talking about
his forty greatest Quarterbacks of All Time list. You can
find that also at Kowacolorado dot com. So we all
agree in football, the mission of every team is winning.
Only one team per season, per season can bring home
(07:22):
that Lombardi Trophy. How do you reconcile the gap between
individual accomplishments and team accomplishments?
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Good question, and as I outlined when responding to Nick,
generally what we see is roughly a quarter of the
time the person at poicting Lombardi Trophy is not even
a top ten quarterback, and roughly three quarters of the
time they're usually somewhere outside of the top five. So
most quarterbacks are whin the Super Bowl are very good,
(07:49):
rarely are they a great. And from a historical perspective,
I think the advent of the Super Bowl and the
spectacle it's morphed into has changed the way that stands
and even reporters and analysts who would position if you
go all the way back to the nineteen forties, the
quarterback rivalry at that time was Sammy Baugh, who won
two championships versus Said Luckman, who won four. At the time,
(08:12):
Sammy Baugh was considered pretty much universally the greatest of
all time. He had the better numbers, he had the
better film, He was a better individual player. Luckman was
great in his own right that had superior team support.
Fast forward to the nineteen fifties, it wasn't quite the
rivalry that Manning and Brady had become, but people spoke
about John Unitas and Bart Starr Uniteds had won three championships,
(08:33):
and really the first two are the ones where he
was great. Nineteen seventy was kind of similar to twenty
fifteen Paid Manning, but bart Starr had five NFL championships,
two of them were the first two Super Bowls, and
there was very few people who had argued bart Starr
over John Unitis, who was regarded up to that point
as the greatest of all time. He had better films,
he had better numbers, he had more individual accolades. Things
(08:55):
changed in the nineteen eighties where you could clearly see
from almost the moment he set foot on the field,
Dan Marina was the most talented, dominant quarterback in the
National Football League. He goes against Joe Montana in his
second season and he gets blown away. Joe Montana clearly
great in his own right, but the forty nine ers
were significantly more talented than the Miami Dolphins, and at
(09:18):
that point you had Montana by the end of his career,
four Super Bowls to zero for Marino and at that
point Grant. The Super Bowl had evolved to having celebrities
that you started to have the beginning of those halftime shows,
John Candy in the stands, and so the narrative started
to change to super Bowl rings perhaps being that measure.
In the nineties, it kind of fell back to Hanfield performance.
(09:40):
Most people would say Brett farv John Lay Dan Marino
were better than Troy than who won three and for
the majority of the Manning Grady rivalry when both were active,
it was usually Manning who was regarded as the better
of the two. Maybe six out of ten people said that.
It certainly wasn't a universal conclusion, but it wasn't until
Peyton Manning retired, which is what was necessary for Tom
(10:02):
Brady to dominate the American Football Conference and later Drew
Brees to retire, to Tom to play a little bit
longer and break those records. So by the time Tom
retired with seven rings, that has been the measure, and
the Super Bowl is obviously morphed into a spectacle unlike
anything anyone could have expected. And I don't think it's
a good measure. The truth is, most quarterbacks when Super
Bowls are very good, but very rarely are they.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Right Ran, you know what, I'm glad we have you
on the show because I've been having this conversation and
this debate with so many people, and you tell me,
like in nineteen seventy eight, that's when the NFL went
from fourteen games to I believe like sixteen games. And
with that being said, that's more games, more opportunities. And
we've seen that the league has turned into a quarterback
(10:47):
driven league where teams are looking to throw more than
run the ball to have balanced because of the value
of the running back position.
Speaker 6 (10:54):
Do you think that the league now needs.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
To put an asterisks by some of these quarterbacks who
have play I mean all beyond I mean sixteen games,
seventeen games, and at some point the league is going
to get to eighteen nineteen games. So do we need
to statistically put asterisks by the numbers that they produce.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
That's a great question. And for me, I've never really
been jazz nick by raw numbers, even if you go
back and you read my work ten fifteen years ago.
I was always a strong advocate for adjusting statistics for eras.
So we're a quarterback ranked during on a season by
season basis and then in totality at the time that
they retired matters more to me than the raw numbers
(11:36):
now right, because you can look to Joe Montana, who
sure I believe, two hundred and seventy three touchdown pass
in his career, so he was top five at the
end of his career. At some point in the very
near future, Derek Carr is going to a clap that
it puts Joe Montana in terms of career touchdown passes,
so he won't come anywhere close to ranking top five
at the time of his retirement. So I don't know
(11:58):
if an asterisk is really something that's in order. I
think it's really just a matter of adjusting that data
for era, which you can do, and a very simple
way to do that is just look at where quarterback
ranked at the time that they retired. Don't really put
too much stock into the inflated modern day numbers. Tom
Brady led the NFL with twenty eight touchdown passes in
(12:19):
two thousand and two. He threw over forty touchdown passes
in twenty twenty, he did not lead the NFL, so
his two thousand and two number was actually more impressive
than the twenty twenty number, even though that wouldn't necessarily
be reflected in the raw data.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Well, one of those guys that was only playing twelve
games a lot of his career was Auto Graham before
all our time? How did you adjust the numbers for him?
And for those that didn't know how great he was,
explain why he's in the top ten on your forty
Greatest All time Quarterbacks?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Ano Graham was. I'm almost out of loss for words
because his resume really is overwhelming if winning is your measure.
He spent ten years playing professional football, so from nineteen
forty six to nineteen forty nine he played in the
American Football Conference, which produced the Cleveland Browns, the Baltimore
Colts to San Francisco forty nine ers. Those teams ended
(13:15):
up merging with the National Football League in nineteen fifty.
So from nineteen forty six to nineteen fifty five, he
led the Cleveland Browns to the championship game of whatever league.
He competed in every single season, and he won seven
out of ten championships. So people will talk about Brady
having the most Super Bowl rings, Otto Grimm also won
seven championships and he did it in only ten seasons
(13:36):
versus twenty one as a full time starter for Tom Brady.
So as far as winning, he's absolutely peerless, and he
was dominant in both leagues. From a statistical standpoint, at
the time of his retirement, he had a conser rating
of eighty six point six for a guy who played
from nineteen forty six to nineteen fifty five. He led
the NFL in passing in forty seven, forty eight to
(13:57):
forty nine, and you could say, okay, well, that would
be all American football. He had the NFL in passing
in nineteen fifty two and nineteen fifty three. He was
dominant anywhere that he played, and he was an integral
part of Paul Brown's offense. So I looked at Paul
Brown as being arguably the greatest offensive genius the game
has ever seen. If there's a way to be able
to adjust that for Era, he was the first person
(14:18):
to put a radio in a quarterback helmet. It was
an experiment that didn't last very long. The Auto Grand
Chicks bullboxes must a statistical standpoint and a team achievement standpoint.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Man, I feel like we could break down this list
for three hours, but we're out of time in this segment. Ryan,
we appreciate you as always and thanks for getting nerdy
with us on Broncos.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Country to Night anytime, guys, that's d Ryan Michael.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
You can find his work at d Ryan Michael on
Twitter and x and you can find his forty Greatest
Quarterbacks of All Time the article he posted up to
Koacolorado dot com. We'll react to that when we come
back and well have the NFL six pack on Broncos
Country Night. Right here on KOAA fifty am ninety four
to one FM.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I'm your guest host.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Grant Smith, filling in for Benjamin Albright while he's in
Indianapolis covering the Combine and filling in on KOA Sports
with Ryan Edwards, who's also out there and joined us
earlier in the show thanks to him, and also George
Sodano covers the NBA for ESPN and Ryan Michael in.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
The last segment. And if you missed any of.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
That, you can catch up on it later on the
free and totally awesome iHeartRadio app. And you can now
set KOA as a preset on our free and redesigned
iHeartRadio app like.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
You have in your car.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I've done so with KOA Kbco and my very own
podcast taking it for granted the podcast so that you
can check out anytime on that free iHeartRadio app as well.
Our iHeartRadio app users are loving the new industry first features,
So go ahead and do it. Nick set Kowa as
a preset today on your iHeartRadio app. As a man,
(15:55):
I knew it would be yes. You know, we were
talking to Ryan Michael before that break and I thought
it was enter.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I'd love to get your take on this.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
He was talking about how he kind of the methodology
behind his forty greatest Quarterbacks of All Time and you
can find that article up on our website, Kawa Colorado
dot com. But he was talking about individual individual accomplishments,
rush team accomplishments, and you know how everything in the
NFL should be about winning the Lombardi Trophy. And we
heard Cam Newton come out a couple of weeks ago,
(16:22):
who is not on the top forty quarterbacks of all
time lists from Ryan Michael, but we heard him say
that he would not trade one of his MVPs.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
For a Super Bowl trophy.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I'd love to get your thoughts on that, based on
you know, your time playing in the NFL. Would you
have rather been an All Pro player or would you
have rather won a.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Super Bowl with the Broncos All Pro?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Really it sounds selfish, and I didn't disagree with Cam
when he said it, because when you think about that,
there's a number of players that win Super Bowls, right,
and that's some That group is even smaller when you
think about the number of guys who won MVPs.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
Right now, let me, I'm just joshing, but.
Speaker 5 (17:09):
I'll take the Super Bowl if it was MVP, that'll
be different, right, But I know what Cam is talking about.
Speaker 6 (17:17):
MVP seems as though it's.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
A singular award, right, And Cam went out and he
had a heck of a season, so and so he
was kind of like that offensive guy.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
You had to stop him, Superman Cam.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
Well, when you win as a team.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
I know it sounds great that I'm going against a
whole team concept, but I look at it like this one.
Speaker 6 (17:40):
Cam being an MVP puts him in rare air.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
You can play in the league four years, five years,
teen years. Never get inside that room. And that's the
velvet room, not the red velvet right with the velvet road. No, no, no,
that's that purple velvet rope.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Right.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
There's only a handful of guys actually get a chance
us to see it.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
So I agree with Cam, and I know it.
Speaker 5 (18:03):
Once again, it sounds selfish, but Cam is saying it
because he played in the biggest of games. He was
in that position. Now, if he was never in that position,
maybe he would have changed his mind. But he played
in the Super Bowl right right, So that's why he
has a frame of mind that he has. I would
rather have that MVP because you are remembered as an MVP.
Speaker 6 (18:22):
Out of all the players that played that year in
the NFL.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
But he ain't a Super Bowl champion because of our
Denver Broncos. Hey you ready for a drink, Let's get it.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Time for the NFL six pack. It's time for the
NFL six path.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
I'm going to.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Insight information you can't find anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I know six the top six NFL headline.
Speaker 6 (18:47):
What Colts to GM.
Speaker 7 (18:51):
Chris Ballard made headlines earlier today when he said that
the Colts will have an open competition at quarterback between
Anthony Richardson and be determined veteran. Are the Colts being
too impatient with Richardson's development? And who do you think
the Colts should add to compete with Richardson?
Speaker 5 (19:10):
Well, I don't know who the Colts will add to
compete with.
Speaker 6 (19:13):
Richardson.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
But I think in my opinion that this is the
NFL and it's all about competition. You should not be
fearful of your job, and putting someone in the place
and not bringing competition makes them complacent. And we've seen
what complacency can do to a bunch of individuals. And also,
by the way, I mean, why should the Colts be
(19:34):
one percent all in on Anthony Richardson. Well, remember in
the game against the Texans, he was like, oh, I'm tired,
because he's tired, So now you question his level of dedication.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
He had moments to sit out that he came back
and he played.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Well, you need to make sure that fire is still there,
so you need adequate competition.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, and I like that Chris Paller came out and
said this so early into the offseason, you know, because
he's light that fire in Anthony Richardson, you hope and
if this doesn't light a fire in Anthony richards and
then you know you don't have the guy. And I
thought Benjamin Albright, who usually sits in this chair, made
a good point earlier on KOA Sports about maybe bringing
in Trey Lance. You know, we talked about him last
(20:15):
night in the six pack. Maybe give him a chance
to really compete for a starting job in the NFL.
Speaker 7 (20:20):
I love that idea, but I wonder, you know, is
it somewhat of an empty threat coming from Chris Ballard
here where you know Trey Lance is one of the
best options available out there, you know, Kirk Cousins, off
an Achilles, Aaron Rodgers and all the headache that comes
with him, or probably the others.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
It's a weaker class. I agree that's a good point.
Seekers who.
Speaker 7 (20:40):
Chiefs GM Brad Veach and thank you Grant. But Chiefs
GM Brett Veach made it clear today that the Chiefs
are expecting Travis Kelsey to return for next season. Is
Kelsey a player that should still scare the division rival
Broncos as well as the Chief's other rivals? Or has
he declined too much to be a real concern and
other wrong side of thirty guy?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I can feel that in the wording of that question
as well.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
No, man, there's no reason to fear Travis Kelsey. I mean,
once again, he can't outrun my six year old, right,
So the idea is that you get in his face,
you clap him down, you put hands on him, and
if he's gonna beat you, he's gonna beat you with
running in timing, and you hope that maybe your defense
can actually get home and you have.
Speaker 6 (21:24):
Ed Rush's who worked their assault.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
But no, man, I mean Travis Kelcey did a lot
earlier on in his career. He's where a lot of people,
a lot of players, and I can speak to this.
I've been there myself. You're not as good as you
were five years earlier.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
What's the Toby Keith song.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm
as good once as I ever was. I think Travis
Kelcey still has a little bit in the tank, but
you're right, he has declined in performance, and we saw
that with Andy Reid's game plans earlier in the season,
when Rashid Rice was still healthy. They were using him
in a lot of those places that they used to
use Travis kelce I do think I'm not scared of him,
but I do think you still have to be fearful
(22:03):
of the Chiefs as a whole until you knock him
off that pedestal of winning the AFC West every year.
Speaker 6 (22:08):
Fully agree.
Speaker 7 (22:09):
You know, at the Kelsey two years ago, he was
kind of budgeted throughout the regular season, turned it on
in the postseason.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
This year, felt like he couldn't even turn it on
in the postseason.
Speaker 8 (22:18):
Hoy Bengals GM Duke Tobin earlier today, when speaking to
the media, said that Cincinnati plans to extend Jamar, Chase
t Higgins and Trey Hendrickson.
Speaker 7 (22:31):
He also added, I want t Higgins on my team.
Our preference is a long term agreement. Will work hard
to get that done, and he also said he's optimistic
the deal gets done.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Just about a half.
Speaker 7 (22:43):
Hour ago, though, t Higgins tweeted out the cap emoji,
which is the koa's gen Z correspondent.
Speaker 6 (22:49):
I'll let people know is a way for the youth to.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Say, that's a lie.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (22:55):
So what do you guys make of Duke Tobin's comments?
Do you think they'll be able to bring back that
trio of costly veterans and who do you feel least
confident returns?
Speaker 5 (23:08):
Well, you try to make sure that you can bring
those guys back in with the cap going up, which
I looked at it as though maybe t Higgins is
talking about the salary cap. Not no dismissing things saying
cap but if the salary cap going up, this a
possibility that they can work this out. Joe Burrow is
already on record stating that he's willing to do whatever
(23:29):
it takes to make this happen, and that has.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
Even taken a little haircut off his salary.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
So if he's willing to do that, the team being
as cheap as they are, then I say t Higgins
still remains in the Bengals uniform.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, and you know, I'd love to see my guy,
Joe Burr, you know, go with the Tom Brady mindset
of we're going to take a little less money to
keep all our guys together, and I hope and the
gen Z lingo there's no cap In Duke Topin's comment before.
Speaker 7 (24:00):
Duke Tobin made some more headlines today when he said
we when asked about running backs going high in the draft,
he said, can.
Speaker 6 (24:07):
A running back go number one overall?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (24:09):
I guess if Walter Payton was in this draft, I might.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Think about taking him number one overall.
Speaker 7 (24:16):
What do the two of you make of Duke Tobin's
of these Duke toven comments and do you think we'll
ever see a running back get drafted number one?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Overall. Ever, again, for what it's worth, we.
Speaker 7 (24:25):
Haven't seen it happen since nineteen ninety five with Kajohna Carter,
and it's happened just twice over the last forty years.
Speaker 6 (24:32):
Well, yeah, there's a possibility that it can happen. It
all depends on the team selecting.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
How do they value that quarterback and that quarterback running
back and they see them flourishing.
Speaker 6 (24:41):
In their particular offense.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
And that would means though a team would have to
be established at.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
The quarterback position and.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Already established with a couple of offensive linemen the black
in front of him.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
So it is not too far.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
Gone to think that a team can't actually do it.
Speaker 6 (24:55):
But I think with all this talk about the quarterback
position that has changed reception. But I'll say this, look
at this past season.
Speaker 5 (25:03):
We've seen running backs come a lot, and the teams
that survived they moved on and advanced of the Super
Bowl and ultimately won it. Those teams did something very
well and that was run the ball.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Run the damn ball. Yeah, I think, I mean, I
don't know. I think this is a ridiculous statement from
Duke Tobin. I mean, knowing how Walter Payton played in
his career like you have the value of looking back
on time and being like, oh, I'm gonna get a
guy that's going to be a Hall of Fame running back,
and I still wouldn't take him at number one. But
to your point, quarterbacks, you know, are always the sexy
(25:36):
thing to pick at the top of the draft, but
you never know what a team's circumstances could be going forward.
Maybe they have their franchise guy in place, he gets
hurt at the beginning of the season, and you're like, hey,
we've got our franchise guy coming back next year, let's
give another weapon. And we've seen the resurgence of the
running game just like you said.
Speaker 7 (25:51):
Nick, Yeah, twenty nineteen we saw one go number two
overall with Saquon, So maybe not that far fetched. And
I think it's interesting this year saw the increased value
of the running back, but it was also kind of
the running back super valuable when you have all the other.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Pieces in place.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Five.
Speaker 7 (26:09):
Sean Payton said earlier today that bo Nicks was dealing
with turf toe during this season. It was also reported
about a month ago that bo Nix was dealing with
a fractured back and playing through that down the stretch
this season, do you find these reports of bo Nix
gritting it out through injury to be more impressive or
more concerning considering these injuries or maybe starting to pile up?
(26:30):
And do you think these injuries might be the reason
we didn't see more QB run game down the stretch?
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Man, this is the NFL. You can't put players in
boogle rat now. I know we watched the Pro Bowl
and let's turn into flag football for the games when
the regular season will never turn into that. Now when
you see he about all these injuries of Bowl, like
you're talking about the turf, So then it was a
fractured bet.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
To me, that says a lot about the player and
being able to show a lot.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Of grit and push through those tough situations, because that's.
Speaker 6 (26:57):
What the game is about.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
We know injuries, and we know the fact that guys
are hurt, they sound the same or they're a lot different.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, And I like to a point in the second
part of your question about if that took away from
the run game from the QB down the stretch, but
and maybe it did. I never even really thought about that.
But this is just like when the back fractures came out.
This makes me love Lo Knicks like this makes me know,
this is my dude, This is my quarterback for the
next ten to twelve, fifteen years hopefully, you know, even
(27:27):
though he is on the wrong side of twenty five now.
Like Zack Seeger has mentioned earlier, but this is stuff.
This is what you want to hear as a fan. Man,
This is what you want from your quarterback. You know,
you have Broncos lore of John Elway and the helicopter
play tough and injuries out and still going out and
winning games like this is what you want as a
Broncos fan. I love hearing these stories about bo Nicks.
Speaker 7 (27:49):
I well, we agree that in his comments, like you
mentioned earlier about you know, making the playoffs was nuts
and we've got.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Higher aspirations of that.
Speaker 7 (27:56):
Right, everything he says makes you think this kid's wired
the exact right way.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
Six a little more Broncos for you here.
Speaker 7 (28:05):
NFL Network listed the Denver Broncos as an ideal fit
for Chiefs free agent safety Justin Reid. Yesterday we talked
about how ESPN listed the Broncos and Chiefs linebackers soon
to be free agent Nick Bolten, as I deal fits together.
Should the Broncos try to proach these rival players in
this manner? And which edition between Bolton and Justin Reid
(28:28):
would you prefer to see in orange and blue?
Speaker 6 (28:30):
Woo, that's a tough from right there.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
Look, I'll say this, adding guys from within your division,
he never failed because you're getting a little piece of
the organization. In this case, you're geting a little piece
of the Chiefs that have been really difficult for the
Broncos to be And then when you look at what
the Broncos need help tight end, run it back, it's
not live marker safety. I mean, if you can't get
(28:54):
Nick Bolton, you can add Reid here because idea is
take away, give more possessions of bolt Knicks, either the
Russian you go.
Speaker 6 (29:01):
You can't be wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah, And I know we've been talking a lot about
Nick Bolton in the last couple of days, but I
still think this linebacking corps. Even though Zach seekers sinks
Alex Singleton is too old to be a good linebacker
in this league anymore, and he complains about mistackles even
though he has one hundred and fifty of him every
year When he's healthy, I think we need another safety.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I think if we can have Riley.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Moss on one side, the defensive player of the year
Pat Certean on the other, you've got Brandon Jones, who
played really well this year, and then you get Justin Reid.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Like that is a lockdown secondary.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
And with how pass happy this league is, you know,
you said that we're going back to the running game
a little bit more, but it's still not like the
old days.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
We're still throwing the ball round a lot.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
If you have that secondary, this defense is going to
be out of this world. And Justin Reid's so perfect too,
you know, Vance Joseph has very interchangeable asks of his
two Saints rights, and I think.
Speaker 7 (29:57):
Justin Reid and Brandon Jones would be a really nice
fit together where you they can both attack going forward,
they can both drop back and coverage and be effective players.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
There. Yeah, there you go. That's your NFL six pack.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
You know this reminds me of but with you saying that, Zach,
your safeties need to be interchangeable, sometimes guys get stuck
into this mold. Well, I'm just a strong safety. I'm
just a free safety. And when you have that in
your scheme, you allow the offense to attack you with
that principle. And that's why when I play here with
John Lynch, we will rotate so that way, one guy
(30:28):
you may think that you're attacking the free safety, but
no you're not. And you need to have the ability
to attack for multiple levels because if you were to
add a guy like Reed and with Brandon Jones, you
can cover in the back end. But but the biggest
part is you've got two guys who can blit sue
as well.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yeah, and like you said, you know, whenever you're proaching
players from your rival teams and your division and that
team has dominated your division over the past ten years,
I mean, that's just good. That's just good news for everybody. Right,
You're going to get some inside scoops onto how the
Chiefs do things, maybe a little inside scoop into how
they game playing on offense, and maybe you can slow
them down a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I mean, I think any.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Chiefs player you can get, heck, sign one to the
practice squad off their practice squad. Who cares get some
of that inside information, you know.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
Usually that's how it happens leading up to a week
before you play a team.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yeah, get that third string quarterback off the practice squad.
Speaker 6 (31:19):
What what didn't like to do inside the red zone? Big
us put all that information today, kill him hit the
curve like two weeks later.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
By the way, you mentioned Justin Reid in this last
six pack story. I hear he may be joining Ryan
Edwards and Benjamin Albright on KOA Sports tomorrow. So just
a pro little programming note there, Nick, this was a
lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Once again.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
We'll have Steve Atwater the Hall of Famer and studio tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I'll talk to you then, man, say you to countries.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
You've been listening to Broncos country to night on KOA
A fifty am ninety
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Four to one FM News Talk Sports.
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