Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Post Chargers debacle as the Broncos call up an opportunity
to clinch a playoff berth in LA short week on
the road, Denver loses twenty seven to thirty four to
the LA Chargers in a game that featured a little
bit of history, some refereing irregularities, the Broncos playing more
(00:25):
zone than they played all year, a play sheet that
said run the ball at the top, and Sean Payton
continued to not do that. A great throw from Justin
Herbert Darius Davis for a touchdown. Can I start right
there for just a second, so much in this gayals,
so we can start there. That's for wherever you want
(00:46):
to start. I don't even know where to start with
this steaming bowl of loser chili here.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, since you brought that up, I wanted to start
there because that was a sensational throw from Herbert because
he's getting pressure to his right arm his passing on,
he's moving to his left and he has enough armstremp
to whip the ball down the field to Darius Davis,
(01:13):
and defensively, I look at it from this standpoint, PJ.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Lock was in great control of the route. He didn't
have to go to.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Davis, because Davis was running somewhat of a swing Pratt pattern,
or we may decide to call it the rail route,
whatever you want to refer to it as.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
But he was in great position.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Herbert in the shotgun pumps once he's in trouble, throws
the ball that is cop that is lost Angelus touchdown
the about plopped by Darius Davis in front of PJ
Lock nineteen yards on the touchdown pass, Herbert was forced
to his left and Darius Davis in his first touchdown
reception of the season, and the Chargers will go for
(01:56):
two here.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I had twenty five twenty four. I was in my car,
are pulling up the house at that point. Yeah, And
I did not need to hear Dave tell me it
was a touchdown. I could tell for the crowd there
was a touchdown, of course, of course.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
And I know the idea was that, well, the Chargers
play at home, and they are not as welcome as
maybe the Rams or other sports teams in the LA market.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
But I have to say, for a Thursday night.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Football game, despite what everyone was saying about the Chargers,
yes they came out. They definitely came out as I
thought they would come out.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
But I'm gonna go back to that playing for a
quick second.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Great arm talent, great throw, precise throw by Justin Herbert.
It was one of the reasons why John Elway fell
in love with Justin Herbert. But just unfortunately Herbert decided
that he's going to go back to college. I would
love to see him in the Broncos uniform. But PJ Lock.
From a defensive standpoint, he had the route dead to rights.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
He didn't have to go to him.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
The only the coaching points I would say is be
better with your eyes because that gets a lot of
defenders in trouble.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Fance Joseph talks about it all the time.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
But if you're going to attack a guy, attack his
near hip, so once he runs down the field, you
just will right inside on that near hip and you're
able to stay in phase with him to force.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
A tougher throw.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
But I'm sure the guys would go back and look
at this particular play and say, well, that was one.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Of the plays that we surrendered that we didn't really
have to. Yeah, and there were a few of those.
There were a couple of penalties that led to fourteen
points to this one. Well, we got to go back
to and we're gonna start with the history play here
because the free kick that was setting Twitter on fire
because apparently the youths don't know the rule on that.
I've been watching football my whole life. I had no
(03:44):
idea that was a rule. Yeah, okay, a lot of that.
There was a lot of that going on last night.
It was funny because when they were when the whole
thing was happening, and we're gonna go back a few
plays before that just set this thing off. Sean Payton
made an absolutely critical coaching error. What were you doing? Okay,
you want to try a play. You're eighty yards away
for forty seconds. You want to try and play. You
try it on first down, you lose three yards. Okay,
(04:06):
it didn't work. Let's kneel it out going a halftime
with a two score lead, right, but no, Jim Harbaugh
just let the clock run, and Sean pay was like,
let's try throwing it again. It's second and thirteen. You
have less at this point. Your dad a like twenty seconds.
What are you doing? You are now creating a potential
(04:26):
failure outcome that could allow your opponent to score. I
get the odds are low, but they aren't zero. If
you kneel the ball, they're zero. This is like the
people that you know you're up or you're you know
you're down two points, you're on a one yard line.
Instead of kneeling out kicking the field goal that they're
trying to punch it in and either apponent with eighteen
seconds to go take a shot down the field. You
(04:47):
create creating. That's why you're a coach. Your job is
to create situations for your players to execute and win games.
Your job is to take all the math out of
it for them and make it as easy as possible,
eliminate failure outcomes, and present successful opportunities. They wouldn't do this.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Listen, the only thing that I can say in that
particular point, and I'll try to play Sean Payton for
for this moment, and I might be totally wrong in
my assessment, but let me take a shot at it.
So the idea is that even though you could have
nailed on the ball and forced it to go into
(05:27):
to have time right.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
But the idea is that with a two score advantage,
with the two score events, no one as though the
Broncans were going to get the ball back at the
hat and the ball coming out with a two score advantage.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
So look at how the game was going at that
particular point. No, probably thinking, Okay, that's the gamblers.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I get it, I get it right, Gambles's fallacy.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Just just keep the gambler in mind, because ideas that
you know you're going to get the ball back, so
you may not get a touchdown, but let's get some
of those extra yards. This kind of had those stats,
if you will, right before the half, tell me how
the stats affect the scoreboard.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
They don't. That's that's the wrong attitude. If that's the
attitude that your coach has, you got a problem. I'm
not saying this is me. I'm just going I know
what I'm saying. I'm saying any any of any thought
process other than how are we best positioned to win
this game is the wrong thought process.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
But once again, listen, let's be totally honest about this situation. Ben,
Momentum is a real thing. You're on the role in
the key game. You got momentum, you got the goal lead,
and you get the ball at the half. Once again,
you're setting it up. You have a two score lead,
you get the ball back at the half of eighty
five yards and the in and you're saying that you
(06:42):
have nothing to lose.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
At that point, but you did have something to Look,
who knew that was gonna happen? Somebody, you're the head coach.
You have to know that. You have to know that
a failure outcome presents the other team with the opportunity
to kick a field goal or worse.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
But no one, Let's be totally honest, but no one
knew that was gonna happen. No one knows who knew
that a rule that took place in nineteen seventy.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Six was going That was the last successful one. It's
been tried since then. In fact, they was tried in
twenty nineteen. You know what else it was tried. It
was tried by Jim Harball when he was coaching the
Niners were Phil Dawson, so he knew exist rule. He
knew the rule, and man, he'd been hit his khaki pants.
He called the time. He coached this guy up to
(07:21):
take a fair catch and lean into the player, and
it worked. They got the extra fifteen. Well, okay, the.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Whole I did leaning into the player. The returner is
trying to fill.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
He had no intention to try to catch that ball.
He was trying to lean his knee into Treymon Smith
to get that penalty. I know the coaching points on this.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So if he was trying to intentionally lean his knee in,
let's just say that if somebody.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Gets close to you, take your off the ball, lean
your knee in and try to then fall back. Ok.
That was Tremon Smith to know.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Okay, listen, once I get to a certain depth or
certain distance betis term to that returner. I have to
make sure that I kind of get away with move
away from him.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I agree with you on that. Or and bear with me.
There's an or or or you kneel the ball and
you never have to worry about it to begin with.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Well, one could have nailed the ball, but like I said,
for the two touchdown lead, that's you don't the lead
though you're getting the ball coming on the half, you're
trying to kind of get those extra yard.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
No, by the math, that is the worst possible thing
you could do. And I'm not saying like I hate
the way the analytics nerds have taken over football in
some ways, but this is what there are some things
where you have to just do the math here, and
the math here says go into halftime with a two
score lead and get the ball back and making a
three score lead after the half.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Isn't that part of analytics yourself the math however you want.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
To whoever you want to design anything too. I'm just
saying this is basically you don't even need an advanced
agree in math or do the math on this one.
It is much much better to have a two score,
two possession lead than a one possession lead. And by
the way, that three points was the difference in the game.
You come down to that last drive and the Denver
Broncos needed two scorers that last drive. They don't get
that three points, they only need one score.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
See that's DIABOLICU. If you're looking at it from that perspective.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Of saying.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
That, Jim Harbaugh say, you know what, this is the
perfect opportunity to take advantage of the rule. Here's what
I want you to do if the ball gets this
amount of hang time, not knowing if it's going to
be a direction to kick to.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
The law contact trials, enjoying the coaching points in that room,
and I'll tell you because they interviewed a lot of
the special teamers after this and that's what they said.
And well, they didn't say that part of it because
that's it, right, but they alluded to it. And so
Ryan Ficken, the special teams coach, it coaches them up
on this scenario every week. They've literally looked at this,
(09:55):
okaycause the last person to do it was Carolina with
Joey Sli back in twenty nineteen, and Ficking said, every
Friday has the specialties to look at this. They go
over at once every week. They go over this, this
freak kick scenario once a week for something that hasn't
been done in five years. It hasn't successfully been done
in forty eight years. See I can see is that's
(10:15):
going over every percentage point to put your guys in
the best position to success.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I can understand going over every single detail, Ben, and
I'm gonna go I can understand practicing every single detail
in the kicking game, right. But my question is, if
Harbag concocted this idea, why did they not do it
all season long?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
You know, this is the only thing that this is
the first time they've had an opportunity to call a
fair catch with time expiring at the end of the half,
because that's what you have to do. You have to
do it with fair catch with time.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I mean, I mean, now we're talking about a perfect
storm here.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
It is talking about a perfect storm like okay, and
that's what you come It's just like Pat Sure coaching
to throw it out of bouncing, which, by the way,
the Chargers did. Tell remember when we laughed at people
practicing about the throwing it out of bounce. Well I
wasn't one of those people, but I'm saying you remember
what people laughed at it. Of course people who laughed
(11:11):
atually what they did. Yes, these are these endgame situations
that eliminate probability points. Jim Harbaugh could have punted that
last ball, but what did he did? He took the
point one percent probability and made it a zero. And
that's what coaching is, that's what that's what you're there
to do. You're there to take the probabilities that maximize
them for your guys and minimize them for other guys.
(11:31):
And in this situation, anything other than kneeling the football
to get out of that half with a two score
advantage was not doing that. And that's malpractice.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
So the last play of the half, Dicker from fifty
seven with the approach and the kick and it is good. Wow,
I'm fortunate to play there for the Broncos.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
A fair catch.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Interference call gives the Chargers of fifteen yard Penoley and
Cameron and Dicker, with no time left in the first half,
gets a fifty seven yard field goal that was a
free kick. The Broncos student not rush at at halftime
here at SOFI Stadium in Los Angeles. It's Denver twenty one,
Los Angeles thirteen.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
It's one thing to get out coached, it's another thing.
Is it worse to get out coached and outplayed by?
And maybe outplayed is a bit of a stretch because
I thought the Broncos played pretty well on offense for
the most part. But is it worse because it's justin Herbert,
a guy John Elway desperately wanted, who then went back
to school for one more year. And it's Jim Harball
guy that the Penners desperately wanted. He decided to go
(12:38):
back and win. Man. No, no, no, no. If we
wanted to.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Nick Pig, we could pull up so many storylines.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
But no, I'm not even going to put it there.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
And even though it was a play that most people
have never seen before and actually seen it orchestrate it.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I still am not of the mind that Harbard just.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Looked at situations in the football and said, well, we're
gonna pull the trigger on this right now. I find
it really hard to believe. Now after the fact, you
can have the best teams coach and the players.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Like yeah, yeah, we definitely playing that, and I'm still
scratching my head, like, man, I don't know about that. Man,
he told her to go out there and take a
fair catch. The coaching point on that, What is the
coaching point on that is, if you're taking the fair catch,
you tried to you know how, this is you know
how some of the things that were the unspoken it's like, hey,
we're trying to get a we're trying to draw a
penalty here. You know this. That's the coaching point for that.
(13:36):
That's the coaching point for that. If you're the return guy,
try waving. I have somebody's getting close to you. Just
reach that knee out little bit, tap him with your
knee and then fall backwards. And that's what Wait wait, wait, wait, wait,
you could want. He didn't.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
He didn't tap it with his knee. He extended his
leg out like he was catching and Tremond's left leg
ran into him.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
So watch that play again. What I've said, watch this
play again. You minds Okay, you're gonna have mind battle.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
So that means that that Harvard told told the return
to go out there and hits from one with a
steaky leg.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Just been uh trying to get one of those, like
every game.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
You've been trying to get one of those.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Uh the first one we've made.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Try.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
We tried one with the forty nine ers. Uh.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I think it was like a seventy yarder or seventy
one seventy one thanks Uh yeah, mister Dawson.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Uh, probably a little. I mean I wanted it so
bad that you know, I tried to seventy one yarder,
but it is it is my favorite role.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
And and that was uh and Cam Dicker stepped up
and nailed it, and uh and I thought that was
that was a huge good momentum.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Uh, you know, got the momentum back.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Uh, and going into halftime and then then coming out and.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
During one was great.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
In the locker room at halftime uh, yeah, both of
these guys.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And he did, and he The text line is like
I think Harball I had to hear from the special
teams coach on this, No, he didn't. Harbaugh tried it
before back, Yeah, seventy one yarder with Phil Dawson, back
when he was with the forty nine ers. This is
a rule. How many years ago was that? God, when
he was coaching with the Niners, about about ten years ago.
Give to give us twenty eleven or twenty twelve.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Okay, okay, So soon Simons passed and he's saying, okay, well,
he's been trying to do that, right, and if he
is as diabolical as you are, looting that he is,
he's ever been all you have to do on every
single punt and the spars.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
This only occurs when there's no time left and a half.
So this is a very specific scenario.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I still even with that point, because those are fine
minute details.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
I just still find it very interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
That, you know, we want to give coach Harbaugh that
type of credit to being able.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
To pull He's attempted it before, So I'm a lot
less skeptical than I wouldn't be in any other situation
that's said. At the end of the day, this comes
back to your play calling it forty seconds left. You
got the ball back. You know, if you wanted to
take a shot on first down. Cool, I'm okay with that.
Taking a shot of first down. They did, and what happened?
They lost three yards on it. And then your opponent
(16:14):
is not burning timeouts. He's happy to go to the
go to the just go in with the two score lead.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Okay, So this play is your smoking gun to say, well,
Selah Peyton got all coach?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Is that what you're saying. I'm not saying it's my
smoking gun. I'm saying it's one play and a chain.
This isn't This is the first time he's mismanaged a
half or an endgame scenario.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Okay, but once again, and we'll go back to something
you just said.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It is one play.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That play alone as history making, as it was.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
A difference in the game, It didn't change the game
for me. It was the difference in the game.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
That was a kick that took place before halftime, but
there was no quarter's been It took with no time
left on the place, so there was no other alternative outcome. Okay, Okay, Okay, fine,
the situation happened a way that he did. I mean, Harvard,
you know, manufactured it out of thin air.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Let's called him David playing. Well.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Once again, that was still halftime going into that. There
was still two more quarters.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
To be played, and there are plays to be made
and all that kind of stuff out there. But at
the end of the day, that play, which was solely
responsible for three points and had nothing chaining off of
it because it was an end of half play, was
the difference in the game. On that last drive for
the Broncos. They would have been down a touchdown going
in to win it. If I could have would have
should have huh. But I mean that's what this is.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Well, well, I mean, there was more time left for
that game, and you could say, if you wanted to
say that, maybe the Broncos should have made.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
More plays, they should have made more plays rexensively.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, but I'm not going to say that particular play
this side of the game, no more than I'm gonna.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Say I may say the side of the game. But
the score, it was the scoring difference in the game.
They yes, they kicked that field goal because they you know,
at the end there and then try for the on
site and that's why. Okay, you know what you do.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
In that case, you had two quarters score more touchdowns.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Fair a fair critique. But at the same time, you
wouldn't have had to score more touchdowns if you didn't
give them a free three point.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
This is the name of the game is scored as
many points as you can, yes, I mean against Cleveland
or they score like forty four.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Again, the name of the game has come out with
more points than your opponent. Not score as many points
as you can well, and you cannot give your opponent
a free three points, free three points. That's what he did.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
He gave them a free three points. That's okay, three points. Okay,
that's fine, But I still go back to that moment
did not define the game. There's other plays within the
two quarters, the third and fourth quarters that we can
lean off, but not that one.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Not absolutely define the game. I think there were other
there were other pivot moments we didn't succeed on, but
we get a chance to get into all those when
we come back. Broncos Country Night Away five six six
mans zeros of text line. I got quite a few
texts coming in here throughout this Shawn's ego got in
the way. Sean said he coached that thing too. Uh.
(19:13):
Nick is saying all these things that go exactly to
why you should be kneeling. People need to understand stats.
I have a degree in stats, so I hear some
of this logic and I just want to scream, Look,
I know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
People may agree with, I mean disagree with, and I
know you disagreeing with it. I'm not saying that it
is my my own theory and what I would have done.
I'm just trying to We're trying to get the other
side of the coin. I think, yeah, I'm just saying
you paid that.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
But I'm hot about it because, like in the moment,
because I'm watching that, We're sitting there at my post
here and I'm screaming about like what are you doing?
What are you running the ball or kneel the ball?
I'll get the op of.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
The Okay, listen, full transparency. Here's two things that we
must put out there. First about one busyman all bright.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Is that I was on my second dinner at this point.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Right, and why Ben feels this way like Ben is
a stickler for clock management. For one, oh, I am,
and he despised when individuals make mistakes.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yes, right, and it just kind of I'm the Adrian
Monk of clock management. Yes, yes, yes, yes, sell show monk.
You know what I'm talking about. You are a white
glove guy.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
You're coming through with your finger on every single part
of the game plan. If it's not done perfectly when
it comes to clock management.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
You have a problem with it. But the other thing
too as well.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
It's not just the fact that you deem what coach
Peyton did was poor clock management. I think you have
a little malice against coach Peyton.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Just generally. It's not it's not personal, it's not. This
is one of those things where I think did Sean
Payton is a good coach? I do. I don't think
he's a great coach, but I think he's a good coach.
I think he's a very good coach. I just don't
put him in the wholl of great right. I think
he's the John Fox of the past. He's a guy
that will have wait wait, wait, we hold on, man,
hold on. That's not denigrating anything. John Fox is a
(21:05):
very good coach too. John Fox turned programs around.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
You got talking about let's be toiling on has Ben.
You're not talking about John Fox and mission him and
some of the elite company with some of the top
coaches in the league.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Should John Fox went to more Super Bowlsan Sean Payton
has needed it with two different teams. He built up
the Carolina Panthers and then he took over the mess
that Josh McDaniels created, reinstalled the culture. Right, Sean Payton's
got a mirror situation. He took over the mess that
Nate Hacker created it but instilled a winning culture. But
you're still liking Sean Payton to John Fox, the top
(21:36):
five all time quarterback won Super Bowl. I'm sorry. I'm
not gonna just shovel praise on that.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I'm decrying to make sure that I understand your point.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Are you praising Sean.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Payton by putting him in the same category as John's Oh.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Both saying that he's a good coach. John Fox was
a very good coach. You were going on Greg, you
were going to be George carl and Basketball was a
very good coach. You're going to make the playoffs with
those You're probably not gonna win unless everything goes right.
But you're gonna be competitive every year. There's no there's
no Hall of great this Hall of Fame. Yeah, he's
(22:08):
not Hall great. Neither one of those guys blowing in
the Hall of Fame, neither one. Sean Payton wins the
Super Bowl in the Broncus. Who get the Hall because
you get two super Bowls and then you do you
do the first time you do that. You're the first
one who does it with two different teams. That'd be
the first time in NFL history. You you get the Hall,
but you don't. You know, Mike McCarthy deserve the Hall
of Fame because he's got the same resume Sean Payton does.
(22:34):
McCarthy don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
No, you win to super Bowl.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
That doesn't count. One super Bowl? You know, how do
you know how difficult it is to win one? Not
everyone could be like twenty or thirty on Madden. Every
kid that doesn't count, that doesn't count is very different.
You're not kidding, seriously not kidding, Like, yeah, I'll do
if I do the pistol and still do the option
in the end of the magic pays the count. I know,
(23:04):
I'm just a messing around the point here is just
that I think Sean Payon. There's a difference between I'm
not denigrating him and saying that he's a very good coach.
That's not dragging him down. I just don't think he
belongs up there with the greats, and I don't think
he's gonna get this team to a super Bowl. He
keeps making the decisions that he's making, You're costing your
team games. At this point, he can one not learn.
He hasn't, though it's continuing. This is not the first
(23:25):
time we've had an end of half or an end
of game brain meltdown on what you should do in
that moment. Quick play. I get that you're playing with
house money this year because nobody thought we were gonna
be this good. But don't piss the profit away.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Like I get your point, because even last year there
was some mistakes made you go back to say that
Patrios game, Yeah, in the timeouts, Yeah, it's not.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
This is not the first time I go back to,
there's four games. Last year, I go to, there's three games.
This year I can go to he almost coughed up
the Raiders game. Like there there's just there's so there's
there's your job as a head coach is to give
your team the widest margin possible. That's your job. That's
the job description. Okay, it could it be a thing
(24:13):
of it comes on being so smart that you overthink situations.
I don't think yourself. Chess people do it all the time, overthinking,
trying to you know, if you moves ahead. There there
is a there is a balance between taking the mathematical
viable thing in mid game situations and going with your gut.
And that's I think that's something that separates the instinct
(24:36):
of great coaches. And I think Sean Payton could be
could be in that part of it, but his end
game and end half management has repeatedly been the wrong answer.
If you create a situation that has a failure outcome
that gives your opponent an opportunity, you've done the wrong thing. Period.
There's no there's no gray area here. This is a
black and white decision making matrix. Moment. I have this choice,
(24:58):
and I have this choice, and it is binary. Do
I do this or do this? Does either one of
these creat a situation in which my opponent can accumulate points.
If it does, that answer is the wrong answer.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
But is that a part that comes along the negative
part that comes along with being so called labeled.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Right, I'm giving me the air quotes offensive genius genius.
See I went off on a tangent about this yesterday,
and I wonder if because when you run the ball,
if you even if you lead the league in rushing
for you don'tet labeled as an offensive genius for that.
And so I it was just me wondering because I
don't have any and anything other than anedult elevenis to
(25:36):
back that is that, you know, maybe he's throwing, because
that's you know, it's my very point have to correct
on that. But what I'm saying is your job is
to win games. Your job is to create the maximum
margins for your players and win games. Who cares about
the numbers. I don't care if you throw for one
yard if we win the game.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I think that once again, this conversation that we have
to me it is a bigger comversation. It goes back
to that whole idea that the league is.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
A passing league. I mean, it is a passing league,
although it's pivoting back to the run because defenses are
getting lighter when they're going nickel all the time and
that's why you've got teams like the Ravens Eagles who
are going heavier and now all of.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
A sudden, let's see, I don't subscribe to that concept
of just looking at the league as just being a
passing the league is this one is one aspect.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Two thirds up the game. But if your.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Emphasis is strictly on passing and passing at a high volume,
you're kind of forcing yourself to play with one hand
tie behind your back, something that we've seen the Broncos
actually have to endure.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Right, And what are we doing playing into the strength
of the Chargers at this point? You know them? You
know the number one defense in the league against condensed
sets is Chargers. Number one defense in the league lowest
epa per play against condense sets. See, I don't.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I am not a fan of the From the defensive standpoint,
I love them, Yeah, that's what I'm bating.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I love it and they do too.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
But from an offensive standpoint, I don't because you bring
everyone in the box and ideas that it makes it
tougher of your quarter. The idea is that when you
have everyone censored the way you want to manor zone,
you can block them in all of that right, But
once again, for me, I feel as though it sort
of limits what you can do because now you have
to expand to create space, right and alstead of starting
(27:23):
out with space.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
And then CANNETCHI or creating the b Yeah, I'm with
you on that. And from the offensive perspective, I'll tell
you I hated it. You know why makes it everything
more difficult to read? You got everybody bunch stuff in there.
It makes it easier to disguise you don't know who's coming,
you don't and so that it creates that kind of
stuff real quick. We got it because we got to
hit traffick here. There's a texture here. The six four
to six says, that's bs. The coach didn't cost us
the game. The penalty on the fair catch was stupid
on the player, not the coach. I'm not saying the
(27:44):
penalty wasn't, but they wouldn't have been in that situation
to begin with if they knelt the ball. I'm not
moving off that. I'm not to me, that's the coach.
And that's not even the only bad coaching point that
I'm at here. What about the punt on fourth and five?
You had a gas defense. Now the granted they've made
a stop in the previous series. Would you put the
ball but the owners back on the defense to make
(28:05):
a stop in a one score game like that, or
would you have gone fourth to four, keeping in mind
that you'd already gone forward on fourth to own in
that series.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, but that was a fourth and two, and that
was a quick plaid pass to the right side, screen
pass to Courtland. So that was the easier pickup than
a fourth and five because even though with outcome being
what it is, fans and media members will always say,
go for that fourth and five. Man, that's a stretch.
(28:34):
That's not like, it's not fourth and inches.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Well, fourth and five would have been my limit in
that scenari If you've got any longer than that fourth, incent,
I probably don't. The fourth and five is about my limit.
If you can't hit, if you can't a slap on
fourth and five, you can't. You can't get up there
and put slap flat out there and get it. Listen.
I get that.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
But at that time, you say, you're looking at your
offense and your offense hasn't really been as productive in.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
The second half. They really haven't, right, So it was
the first drive we got home, met them, we got
the midfield right right.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
So to do that, I know it sounds like ideal,
and for me, it's a desperation move at that point.
Punt the ball play to your defense, hope that they
can make a stop or Herbert makes another era or
something like that. But I don't have an issue with that, Okay,
I really don't. If you want to break it down
(29:23):
in more detail on.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Mine, that's what I'm willing to I'm willing to waver
on this one. That's why I save this point is
because this is what I can I'll debate. I won't
debate the other one. That was just that was the
wrong thing to do. There is no there is no
way right. It's the wrong thing to do. Is to
run plays when you can get away with it, When
you can end half with a two score lead and
get the ball back, you're guaranteeing your the next possession.
You have two score leading, you're guaranteeing you get the
next possession of the game. As far as this one goes,
(29:47):
I could be talked out of it. I would have
gone forward on fourth and five. There the outcome would have,
you know, the failure outcome there would have been the
same either way. Right, the failure outcome is they possessed
the football, they could score a touchdown, which they end
up doing. So the failure the maximum fail your outcome
there is a two score game, which it ended up
being either way. So for me, I'm weighing what is
the success percentage? What what play do I have in
(30:08):
here in my book? What play do I have in
here to burn that the success percentage is high because
the failure outcome on this is fifty to fifty.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
You look, man, I'm kicking the ball because I wanted
one to put the charges on the long field.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
I want to put them in, make them go as
they're going to score, right, make him go the whole way.
But here's here was my here's my counter argument to
that point. All right. The other reason that I go
for it, I'm on a short week. My guys just
played sixty snaps on Sunday. They played just about sixty
snaps tonight. They're gassed. The odds of the of putting
(30:45):
together a lengthy drive that's going to wind up in
a score is pretty high. See.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I feel different to that because you go for it
on fourth and five, you get two yards. You get
three yards, you want a two yards shy. Now you
put a defense there, you're talking about tired, exhausted.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Short week.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
You put them back on the field on a short field.
Might wait, chargers go down and score. Now the defense
from a confidence standpoint, they're now deflated.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I won't do that. I'm with you. I can't do that.
I understand that. Let me counterpoint one last little point here,
and I would say this, if I don't get it
on that fourth at midfield, they're probably going conservative give
it you punt it. They're probably gonna be a little
bit more aggressive, and they're play callge. They're backed up. They
need to get down the field, probably a little more aggressive.
I might be able to get away with just giving
up a field goal here, and I'm still one score
away from winning.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I don't see it that way, because you go four
and fourth down, Rocos don't get it. Chargers get the ball.
They have momentum. And you think playing at home, knowing
as though the Broncs are nine to five, right and
you were eight and six, and somehow you're just going
to take your footup off the gather.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
No you're not.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
You're going to smash the gas pedal, which how to
put it through the floor.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I just I wanted to run through all my lines
of thinking on this because I thought I can be
talked out of that one. There's no way anybody's ever
going to talk me out of that first half decision ever,
but that one I could be talked out of. There's
a couple other things I want to go over. We've
got Nick Cosmider coming up here next. After that, we'll
get into a little bit more recapping this thing and
what we got to look forward to. They got two
more chances to punch your ticket Broncos Country and I
continues after this
Post Chargers debacle as the Broncos call up an opportunity
to clinch a playoff berth in LA short week on
the road, Denver loses twenty seven to thirty four to
the LA Chargers in a game that featured a little
bit of history, some refereing irregularities, the Broncos playing more
(00:25):
zone than they played all year, a play sheet that
said run the ball at the top, and Sean Payton
continued to not do that. A great throw from Justin
Herbert Darius Davis for a touchdown. Can I start right
there for just a second, so much in this gayals,
so we can start there. That's for wherever you want
(00:46):
to start. I don't even know where to start with
this steaming bowl of loser chili here.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, since you brought that up, I wanted to start
there because that was a sensational throw from Herbert because
he's getting pressure to his right arm his passing on,
he's moving to his left and he has enough armstremp
to whip the ball down the field to Darius Davis,
(01:13):
and defensively, I look at it from this standpoint, PJ.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Lock was in great control of the route. He didn't
have to go to.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Davis, because Davis was running somewhat of a swing Pratt pattern,
or we may decide to call it the rail route,
whatever you want to refer to it as.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
But he was in great position.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Herbert in the shotgun pumps once he's in trouble, throws
the ball that is cop that is lost Angelus touchdown
the about plopped by Darius Davis in front of PJ
Lock nineteen yards on the touchdown pass, Herbert was forced
to his left and Darius Davis in his first touchdown
reception of the season, and the Chargers will go for
(01:56):
two here.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I had twenty five twenty four. I was in my car,
are pulling up the house at that point. Yeah, And
I did not need to hear Dave tell me it
was a touchdown. I could tell for the crowd there
was a touchdown, of course, of course.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
And I know the idea was that, well, the Chargers
play at home, and they are not as welcome as
maybe the Rams or other sports teams in the LA market.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
But I have to say, for a Thursday night.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Football game, despite what everyone was saying about the Chargers,
yes they came out. They definitely came out as I
thought they would come out.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
But I'm gonna go back to that playing for a
quick second.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Great arm talent, great throw, precise throw by Justin Herbert.
It was one of the reasons why John Elway fell
in love with Justin Herbert. But just unfortunately Herbert decided
that he's going to go back to college. I would
love to see him in the Broncos uniform. But PJ Lock.
From a defensive standpoint, he had the route dead to rights.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
He didn't have to go to him.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
The only the coaching points I would say is be
better with your eyes because that gets a lot of
defenders in trouble.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Fance Joseph talks about it all the time.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
But if you're going to attack a guy, attack his
near hip, so once he runs down the field, you
just will right inside on that near hip and you're
able to stay in phase with him to force.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
A tougher throw.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
But I'm sure the guys would go back and look
at this particular play and say, well, that was one.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Of the plays that we surrendered that we didn't really
have to. Yeah, and there were a few of those.
There were a couple of penalties that led to fourteen
points to this one. Well, we got to go back
to and we're gonna start with the history play here
because the free kick that was setting Twitter on fire
because apparently the youths don't know the rule on that.
I've been watching football my whole life. I had no
(03:44):
idea that was a rule. Yeah, okay, a lot of that.
There was a lot of that going on last night.
It was funny because when they were when the whole
thing was happening, and we're gonna go back a few
plays before that just set this thing off. Sean Payton
made an absolutely critical coaching error. What were you doing? Okay,
you want to try a play. You're eighty yards away
for forty seconds. You want to try and play. You
try it on first down, you lose three yards. Okay,
(04:06):
it didn't work. Let's kneel it out going a halftime
with a two score lead, right, but no, Jim Harbaugh
just let the clock run, and Sean pay was like,
let's try throwing it again. It's second and thirteen. You
have less at this point. Your dad a like twenty seconds.
What are you doing? You are now creating a potential
(04:26):
failure outcome that could allow your opponent to score. I
get the odds are low, but they aren't zero. If
you kneel the ball, they're zero. This is like the
people that you know you're up or you're you know
you're down two points, you're on a one yard line.
Instead of kneeling out kicking the field goal that they're
trying to punch it in and either apponent with eighteen
seconds to go take a shot down the field. You
(04:47):
create creating. That's why you're a coach. Your job is
to create situations for your players to execute and win games.
Your job is to take all the math out of
it for them and make it as easy as possible,
eliminate failure outcomes, and present successful opportunities. They wouldn't do this.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Listen, the only thing that I can say in that
particular point, and I'll try to play Sean Payton for
for this moment, and I might be totally wrong in
my assessment, but let me take a shot at it.
So the idea is that even though you could have
nailed on the ball and forced it to go into
(05:27):
to have time right.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
But the idea is that with a two score advantage,
with the two score events, no one as though the
Broncans were going to get the ball back at the
hat and the ball coming out with a two score advantage.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
So look at how the game was going at that
particular point. No, probably thinking, Okay, that's the gamblers.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I get it, I get it right, Gambles's fallacy.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Just just keep the gambler in mind, because ideas that
you know you're going to get the ball back, so
you may not get a touchdown, but let's get some
of those extra yards. This kind of had those stats,
if you will, right before the half, tell me how
the stats affect the scoreboard.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
They don't. That's that's the wrong attitude. If that's the
attitude that your coach has, you got a problem. I'm
not saying this is me. I'm just going I know
what I'm saying. I'm saying any any of any thought
process other than how are we best positioned to win
this game is the wrong thought process.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
But once again, listen, let's be totally honest about this situation. Ben,
Momentum is a real thing. You're on the role in
the key game. You got momentum, you got the goal lead,
and you get the ball at the half. Once again,
you're setting it up. You have a two score lead,
you get the ball back at the half of eighty
five yards and the in and you're saying that you
(06:42):
have nothing to lose.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
At that point, but you did have something to Look,
who knew that was gonna happen? Somebody, you're the head coach.
You have to know that. You have to know that
a failure outcome presents the other team with the opportunity
to kick a field goal or worse.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
But no one, Let's be totally honest, but no one
knew that was gonna happen. No one knows who knew
that a rule that took place in nineteen seventy.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Six was going That was the last successful one. It's
been tried since then. In fact, they was tried in
twenty nineteen. You know what else it was tried. It
was tried by Jim Harball when he was coaching the
Niners were Phil Dawson, so he knew exist rule. He
knew the rule, and man, he'd been hit his khaki pants.
He called the time. He coached this guy up to
(07:21):
take a fair catch and lean into the player, and
it worked. They got the extra fifteen. Well, okay, the.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Whole I did leaning into the player. The returner is
trying to fill.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
He had no intention to try to catch that ball.
He was trying to lean his knee into Treymon Smith
to get that penalty. I know the coaching points on this.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So if he was trying to intentionally lean his knee in,
let's just say that if somebody.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Gets close to you, take your off the ball, lean
your knee in and try to then fall back. Ok.
That was Tremon Smith to know.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Okay, listen, once I get to a certain depth or
certain distance betis term to that returner. I have to
make sure that I kind of get away with move
away from him.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I agree with you on that. Or and bear with me.
There's an or or or you kneel the ball and
you never have to worry about it to begin with.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Well, one could have nailed the ball, but like I said,
for the two touchdown lead, that's you don't the lead
though you're getting the ball coming on the half, you're
trying to kind of get those extra yard.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
No, by the math, that is the worst possible thing
you could do. And I'm not saying like I hate
the way the analytics nerds have taken over football in
some ways, but this is what there are some things
where you have to just do the math here, and
the math here says go into halftime with a two
score lead and get the ball back and making a
three score lead after the half.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Isn't that part of analytics yourself the math however you want.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
To whoever you want to design anything too. I'm just
saying this is basically you don't even need an advanced
agree in math or do the math on this one.
It is much much better to have a two score,
two possession lead than a one possession lead. And by
the way, that three points was the difference in the game.
You come down to that last drive and the Denver
Broncos needed two scorers that last drive. They don't get
that three points, they only need one score.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
See that's DIABOLICU. If you're looking at it from that perspective.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Of saying.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
That, Jim Harbaugh say, you know what, this is the
perfect opportunity to take advantage of the rule. Here's what
I want you to do if the ball gets this
amount of hang time, not knowing if it's going to
be a direction to kick to.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
The law contact trials, enjoying the coaching points in that room,
and I'll tell you because they interviewed a lot of
the special teamers after this and that's what they said.
And well, they didn't say that part of it because
that's it, right, but they alluded to it. And so
Ryan Ficken, the special teams coach, it coaches them up
on this scenario every week. They've literally looked at this,
(09:55):
okaycause the last person to do it was Carolina with
Joey Sli back in twenty nineteen, and Ficking said, every
Friday has the specialties to look at this. They go
over at once every week. They go over this, this
freak kick scenario once a week for something that hasn't
been done in five years. It hasn't successfully been done
in forty eight years. See I can see is that's
(10:15):
going over every percentage point to put your guys in
the best position to success.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I can understand going over every single detail, Ben, and
I'm gonna go I can understand practicing every single detail
in the kicking game, right. But my question is, if
Harbag concocted this idea, why did they not do it
all season long?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
You know, this is the only thing that this is
the first time they've had an opportunity to call a
fair catch with time expiring at the end of the half,
because that's what you have to do. You have to
do it with fair catch with time.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I mean, I mean, now we're talking about a perfect
storm here.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
It is talking about a perfect storm like okay, and
that's what you come It's just like Pat Sure coaching
to throw it out of bouncing, which, by the way,
the Chargers did. Tell remember when we laughed at people
practicing about the throwing it out of bounce. Well I
wasn't one of those people, but I'm saying you remember
what people laughed at it. Of course people who laughed
(11:11):
atually what they did. Yes, these are these endgame situations
that eliminate probability points. Jim Harbaugh could have punted that
last ball, but what did he did? He took the
point one percent probability and made it a zero. And
that's what coaching is, that's what that's what you're there
to do. You're there to take the probabilities that maximize
them for your guys and minimize them for other guys.
(11:31):
And in this situation, anything other than kneeling the football
to get out of that half with a two score
advantage was not doing that. And that's malpractice.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
So the last play of the half, Dicker from fifty
seven with the approach and the kick and it is good. Wow,
I'm fortunate to play there for the Broncos.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
A fair catch.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Interference call gives the Chargers of fifteen yard Penoley and
Cameron and Dicker, with no time left in the first half,
gets a fifty seven yard field goal that was a
free kick. The Broncos student not rush at at halftime
here at SOFI Stadium in Los Angeles. It's Denver twenty one,
Los Angeles thirteen.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
It's one thing to get out coached, it's another thing.
Is it worse to get out coached and outplayed by?
And maybe outplayed is a bit of a stretch because
I thought the Broncos played pretty well on offense for
the most part. But is it worse because it's justin Herbert,
a guy John Elway desperately wanted, who then went back
to school for one more year. And it's Jim Harball
guy that the Penners desperately wanted. He decided to go
(12:38):
back and win. Man. No, no, no, no. If we
wanted to.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Nick Pig, we could pull up so many storylines.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
But no, I'm not even going to put it there.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
And even though it was a play that most people
have never seen before and actually seen it orchestrate it.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I still am not of the mind that Harbard just.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Looked at situations in the football and said, well, we're
gonna pull the trigger on this right now. I find
it really hard to believe. Now after the fact, you
can have the best teams coach and the players.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Like yeah, yeah, we definitely playing that, and I'm still
scratching my head, like, man, I don't know about that. Man,
he told her to go out there and take a
fair catch. The coaching point on that, What is the
coaching point on that is, if you're taking the fair catch,
you tried to you know how, this is you know
how some of the things that were the unspoken it's like, hey,
we're trying to get a we're trying to draw a
penalty here. You know this. That's the coaching point for that.
(13:36):
That's the coaching point for that. If you're the return guy,
try waving. I have somebody's getting close to you. Just
reach that knee out little bit, tap him with your
knee and then fall backwards. And that's what Wait wait, wait, wait, wait,
you could want. He didn't.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
He didn't tap it with his knee. He extended his
leg out like he was catching and Tremond's left leg
ran into him.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
So watch that play again. What I've said, watch this
play again. You minds Okay, you're gonna have mind battle.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
So that means that that Harvard told told the return
to go out there and hits from one with a
steaky leg.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Just been uh trying to get one of those, like
every game.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
You've been trying to get one of those.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Uh the first one we've made.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Try.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
We tried one with the forty nine ers. Uh.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I think it was like a seventy yarder or seventy
one seventy one thanks Uh yeah, mister Dawson.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Uh, probably a little. I mean I wanted it so
bad that you know, I tried to seventy one yarder,
but it is it is my favorite role.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
And and that was uh and Cam Dicker stepped up
and nailed it, and uh and I thought that was
that was a huge good momentum.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Uh, you know, got the momentum back.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Uh, and going into halftime and then then coming out and.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
During one was great.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
In the locker room at halftime uh, yeah, both of
these guys.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And he did, and he The text line is like
I think Harball I had to hear from the special
teams coach on this, No, he didn't. Harbaugh tried it
before back, Yeah, seventy one yarder with Phil Dawson, back
when he was with the forty nine ers. This is
a rule. How many years ago was that? God, when
he was coaching with the Niners, about about ten years ago.
Give to give us twenty eleven or twenty twelve.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Okay, okay, So soon Simons passed and he's saying, okay, well,
he's been trying to do that, right, and if he
is as diabolical as you are, looting that he is,
he's ever been all you have to do on every
single punt and the spars.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
This only occurs when there's no time left and a half.
So this is a very specific scenario.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I still even with that point, because those are fine
minute details.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
I just still find it very interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
That, you know, we want to give coach Harbaugh that
type of credit to being able.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
To pull He's attempted it before, So I'm a lot
less skeptical than I wouldn't be in any other situation
that's said. At the end of the day, this comes
back to your play calling it forty seconds left. You
got the ball back. You know, if you wanted to
take a shot on first down. Cool, I'm okay with that.
Taking a shot of first down. They did, and what happened?
They lost three yards on it. And then your opponent
(16:14):
is not burning timeouts. He's happy to go to the
go to the just go in with the two score lead.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Okay, So this play is your smoking gun to say, well,
Selah Peyton got all coach?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Is that what you're saying. I'm not saying it's my
smoking gun. I'm saying it's one play and a chain.
This isn't This is the first time he's mismanaged a
half or an endgame scenario.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Okay, but once again, and we'll go back to something
you just said.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It is one play.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That play alone as history making, as it was.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
A difference in the game, It didn't change the game
for me. It was the difference in the game.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
That was a kick that took place before halftime, but
there was no quarter's been It took with no time
left on the place, so there was no other alternative outcome. Okay, Okay, Okay, fine,
the situation happened a way that he did. I mean, Harvard,
you know, manufactured it out of thin air.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Let's called him David playing. Well.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Once again, that was still halftime going into that. There
was still two more quarters.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
To be played, and there are plays to be made
and all that kind of stuff out there. But at
the end of the day, that play, which was solely
responsible for three points and had nothing chaining off of
it because it was an end of half play, was
the difference in the game. On that last drive for
the Broncos. They would have been down a touchdown going
in to win it. If I could have would have
should have huh. But I mean that's what this is.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Well, well, I mean, there was more time left for
that game, and you could say, if you wanted to
say that, maybe the Broncos should have made.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
More plays, they should have made more plays rexensively.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, but I'm not going to say that particular play
this side of the game, no more than I'm gonna.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Say I may say the side of the game. But
the score, it was the scoring difference in the game.
They yes, they kicked that field goal because they you know,
at the end there and then try for the on
site and that's why. Okay, you know what you do.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
In that case, you had two quarters score more touchdowns.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Fair a fair critique. But at the same time, you
wouldn't have had to score more touchdowns if you didn't
give them a free three point.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
This is the name of the game is scored as
many points as you can, yes, I mean against Cleveland
or they score like forty four.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Again, the name of the game has come out with
more points than your opponent. Not score as many points
as you can well, and you cannot give your opponent
a free three points, free three points. That's what he did.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
He gave them a free three points. That's okay, three points. Okay,
that's fine, But I still go back to that moment
did not define the game. There's other plays within the
two quarters, the third and fourth quarters that we can
lean off, but not that one.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Not absolutely define the game. I think there were other
there were other pivot moments we didn't succeed on, but
we get a chance to get into all those when
we come back. Broncos Country Night Away five six six
mans zeros of text line. I got quite a few
texts coming in here throughout this Shawn's ego got in
the way. Sean said he coached that thing too. Uh.
(19:13):
Nick is saying all these things that go exactly to
why you should be kneeling. People need to understand stats.
I have a degree in stats, so I hear some
of this logic and I just want to scream, Look,
I know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
People may agree with, I mean disagree with, and I
know you disagreeing with it. I'm not saying that it
is my my own theory and what I would have done.
I'm just trying to We're trying to get the other
side of the coin. I think, yeah, I'm just saying
you paid that.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
But I'm hot about it because, like in the moment,
because I'm watching that, We're sitting there at my post
here and I'm screaming about like what are you doing?
What are you running the ball or kneel the ball?
I'll get the op of.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
The Okay, listen, full transparency. Here's two things that we
must put out there. First about one busyman all bright.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Is that I was on my second dinner at this point.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Right, and why Ben feels this way like Ben is
a stickler for clock management. For one, oh, I am,
and he despised when individuals make mistakes.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yes, right, and it just kind of I'm the Adrian
Monk of clock management. Yes, yes, yes, yes, sell show monk.
You know what I'm talking about. You are a white
glove guy.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
You're coming through with your finger on every single part
of the game plan. If it's not done perfectly when
it comes to clock management.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
You have a problem with it. But the other thing
too as well.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
It's not just the fact that you deem what coach
Peyton did was poor clock management. I think you have
a little malice against coach Peyton.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Just generally. It's not it's not personal, it's not. This
is one of those things where I think did Sean
Payton is a good coach? I do. I don't think
he's a great coach, but I think he's a good coach.
I think he's a very good coach. I just don't
put him in the wholl of great right. I think
he's the John Fox of the past. He's a guy
that will have wait wait, wait, we hold on, man,
hold on. That's not denigrating anything. John Fox is a
(21:05):
very good coach too. John Fox turned programs around.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
You got talking about let's be toiling on has Ben.
You're not talking about John Fox and mission him and
some of the elite company with some of the top
coaches in the league.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Should John Fox went to more Super Bowlsan Sean Payton
has needed it with two different teams. He built up
the Carolina Panthers and then he took over the mess
that Josh McDaniels created, reinstalled the culture. Right, Sean Payton's
got a mirror situation. He took over the mess that
Nate Hacker created it but instilled a winning culture. But
you're still liking Sean Payton to John Fox, the top
(21:36):
five all time quarterback won Super Bowl. I'm sorry. I'm
not gonna just shovel praise on that.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I'm decrying to make sure that I understand your point.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Are you praising Sean.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Payton by putting him in the same category as John's Oh.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Both saying that he's a good coach. John Fox was
a very good coach. You were going on Greg, you
were going to be George carl and Basketball was a
very good coach. You're going to make the playoffs with
those You're probably not gonna win unless everything goes right.
But you're gonna be competitive every year. There's no there's
no Hall of great this Hall of Fame. Yeah, he's
(22:08):
not Hall great. Neither one of those guys blowing in
the Hall of Fame, neither one. Sean Payton wins the
Super Bowl in the Broncus. Who get the Hall because
you get two super Bowls and then you do you
do the first time you do that. You're the first
one who does it with two different teams. That'd be
the first time in NFL history. You you get the Hall,
but you don't. You know, Mike McCarthy deserve the Hall
of Fame because he's got the same resume Sean Payton does.
(22:34):
McCarthy don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
No, you win to super Bowl.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
That doesn't count. One super Bowl? You know, how do
you know how difficult it is to win one? Not
everyone could be like twenty or thirty on Madden. Every
kid that doesn't count, that doesn't count is very different.
You're not kidding, seriously not kidding, Like, yeah, I'll do
if I do the pistol and still do the option
in the end of the magic pays the count. I know,
(23:04):
I'm just a messing around the point here is just
that I think Sean Payon. There's a difference between I'm
not denigrating him and saying that he's a very good coach.
That's not dragging him down. I just don't think he
belongs up there with the greats, and I don't think
he's gonna get this team to a super Bowl. He
keeps making the decisions that he's making, You're costing your
team games. At this point, he can one not learn.
He hasn't, though it's continuing. This is not the first
(23:25):
time we've had an end of half or an end
of game brain meltdown on what you should do in
that moment. Quick play. I get that you're playing with
house money this year because nobody thought we were gonna
be this good. But don't piss the profit away.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Like I get your point, because even last year there
was some mistakes made you go back to say that
Patrios game, Yeah, in the timeouts, Yeah, it's not.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
This is not the first time I go back to,
there's four games. Last year, I go to, there's three games.
This year I can go to he almost coughed up
the Raiders game. Like there there's just there's so there's
there's your job as a head coach is to give
your team the widest margin possible. That's your job. That's
the job description. Okay, it could it be a thing
(24:13):
of it comes on being so smart that you overthink situations.
I don't think yourself. Chess people do it all the time, overthinking,
trying to you know, if you moves ahead. There there
is a there is a balance between taking the mathematical
viable thing in mid game situations and going with your gut.
And that's I think that's something that separates the instinct
(24:36):
of great coaches. And I think Sean Payton could be
could be in that part of it, but his end
game and end half management has repeatedly been the wrong answer.
If you create a situation that has a failure outcome
that gives your opponent an opportunity, you've done the wrong thing. Period.
There's no there's no gray area here. This is a
black and white decision making matrix. Moment. I have this choice,
(24:58):
and I have this choice, and it is binary. Do
I do this or do this? Does either one of
these creat a situation in which my opponent can accumulate points.
If it does, that answer is the wrong answer.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
But is that a part that comes along the negative
part that comes along with being so called labeled.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Right, I'm giving me the air quotes offensive genius genius.
See I went off on a tangent about this yesterday,
and I wonder if because when you run the ball,
if you even if you lead the league in rushing
for you don'tet labeled as an offensive genius for that.
And so I it was just me wondering because I
don't have any and anything other than anedult elevenis to
(25:36):
back that is that, you know, maybe he's throwing, because
that's you know, it's my very point have to correct
on that. But what I'm saying is your job is
to win games. Your job is to create the maximum
margins for your players and win games. Who cares about
the numbers. I don't care if you throw for one
yard if we win the game.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I think that once again, this conversation that we have
to me it is a bigger comversation. It goes back
to that whole idea that the league is.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
A passing league. I mean, it is a passing league,
although it's pivoting back to the run because defenses are
getting lighter when they're going nickel all the time and
that's why you've got teams like the Ravens Eagles who
are going heavier and now all of.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
A sudden, let's see, I don't subscribe to that concept
of just looking at the league as just being a
passing the league is this one is one aspect.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Two thirds up the game. But if your.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Emphasis is strictly on passing and passing at a high volume,
you're kind of forcing yourself to play with one hand
tie behind your back, something that we've seen the Broncos
actually have to endure.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Right, And what are we doing playing into the strength
of the Chargers at this point? You know them? You
know the number one defense in the league against condensed
sets is Chargers. Number one defense in the league lowest
epa per play against condense sets. See, I don't.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I am not a fan of the From the defensive standpoint,
I love them, Yeah, that's what I'm bating.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I love it and they do too.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
But from an offensive standpoint, I don't because you bring
everyone in the box and ideas that it makes it
tougher of your quarter. The idea is that when you
have everyone censored the way you want to manor zone,
you can block them in all of that right, But
once again, for me, I feel as though it sort
of limits what you can do because now you have
to expand to create space, right and alstead of starting
(27:23):
out with space.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
And then CANNETCHI or creating the b Yeah, I'm with
you on that. And from the offensive perspective, I'll tell
you I hated it. You know why makes it everything
more difficult to read? You got everybody bunch stuff in there.
It makes it easier to disguise you don't know who's coming,
you don't and so that it creates that kind of
stuff real quick. We got it because we got to
hit traffick here. There's a texture here. The six four
to six says, that's bs. The coach didn't cost us
the game. The penalty on the fair catch was stupid
on the player, not the coach. I'm not saying the
(27:44):
penalty wasn't, but they wouldn't have been in that situation
to begin with if they knelt the ball. I'm not
moving off that. I'm not to me, that's the coach.
And that's not even the only bad coaching point that
I'm at here. What about the punt on fourth and five?
You had a gas defense. Now the granted they've made
a stop in the previous series. Would you put the
ball but the owners back on the defense to make
(28:05):
a stop in a one score game like that, or
would you have gone fourth to four, keeping in mind
that you'd already gone forward on fourth to own in
that series.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, but that was a fourth and two, and that
was a quick plaid pass to the right side, screen
pass to Courtland. So that was the easier pickup than
a fourth and five because even though with outcome being
what it is, fans and media members will always say,
go for that fourth and five. Man, that's a stretch.
(28:34):
That's not like, it's not fourth and inches.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Well, fourth and five would have been my limit in
that scenari If you've got any longer than that fourth, incent,
I probably don't. The fourth and five is about my limit.
If you can't hit, if you can't a slap on
fourth and five, you can't. You can't get up there
and put slap flat out there and get it. Listen.
I get that.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
But at that time, you say, you're looking at your
offense and your offense hasn't really been as productive in.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
The second half. They really haven't, right, So it was
the first drive we got home, met them, we got
the midfield right right.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
So to do that, I know it sounds like ideal,
and for me, it's a desperation move at that point.
Punt the ball play to your defense, hope that they
can make a stop or Herbert makes another era or
something like that. But I don't have an issue with that, Okay,
I really don't. If you want to break it down
(29:23):
in more detail on.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Mine, that's what I'm willing to I'm willing to waver
on this one. That's why I save this point is
because this is what I can I'll debate. I won't
debate the other one. That was just that was the
wrong thing to do. There is no there is no
way right. It's the wrong thing to do. Is to
run plays when you can get away with it, When
you can end half with a two score lead and
get the ball back, you're guaranteeing your the next possession.
You have two score leading, you're guaranteeing you get the
next possession of the game. As far as this one goes,
(29:47):
I could be talked out of it. I would have
gone forward on fourth and five. There the outcome would have,
you know, the failure outcome there would have been the
same either way. Right, the failure outcome is they possessed
the football, they could score a touchdown, which they end
up doing. So the failure the maximum fail your outcome
there is a two score game, which it ended up
being either way. So for me, I'm weighing what is
the success percentage? What what play do I have in
(30:08):
here in my book? What play do I have in
here to burn that the success percentage is high because
the failure outcome on this is fifty to fifty.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
You look, man, I'm kicking the ball because I wanted
one to put the charges on the long field.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
I want to put them in, make them go as
they're going to score, right, make him go the whole way.
But here's here was my here's my counter argument to
that point. All right. The other reason that I go
for it, I'm on a short week. My guys just
played sixty snaps on Sunday. They played just about sixty
snaps tonight. They're gassed. The odds of the of putting
(30:45):
together a lengthy drive that's going to wind up in
a score is pretty high. See.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I feel different to that because you go for it
on fourth and five, you get two yards. You get
three yards, you want a two yards shy. Now you
put a defense there, you're talking about tired, exhausted.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Short week.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
You put them back on the field on a short field.
Might wait, chargers go down and score. Now the defense
from a confidence standpoint, they're now deflated.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I won't do that. I'm with you. I can't do that.
I understand that. Let me counterpoint one last little point here,
and I would say this, if I don't get it
on that fourth at midfield, they're probably going conservative give
it you punt it. They're probably gonna be a little
bit more aggressive, and they're play callge. They're backed up. They
need to get down the field, probably a little more aggressive.
I might be able to get away with just giving
up a field goal here, and I'm still one score
away from winning.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I don't see it that way, because you go four
and fourth down, Rocos don't get it. Chargers get the ball.
They have momentum. And you think playing at home, knowing
as though the Broncs are nine to five, right and
you were eight and six, and somehow you're just going
to take your footup off the gather.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
No you're not.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
You're going to smash the gas pedal, which how to
put it through the floor.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I just I wanted to run through all my lines
of thinking on this because I thought I can be
talked out of that one. There's no way anybody's ever
going to talk me out of that first half decision ever,
but that one I could be talked out of. There's
a couple other things I want to go over. We've
got Nick Cosmider coming up here next. After that, we'll
get into a little bit more recapping this thing and
what we got to look forward to. They got two
more chances to punch your ticket Broncos Country and I
continues after this
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