February 3, 2025 • 24 mins
Bonnie Carroll established the Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors (TAPS) in 1994, creating a vital support network for those mourning the loss of a military loved one. Motivated by the tragic death of her husband, Brigadier General Tom Carroll, in a 1992 Army plane crash, along with seven other soldiers, Bonnie transformed her personal loss into a purposeful mission. Today, TAPS stands as the leading national organization dedicated to offering compassionate care to those grieving the death of a hero who served their country selflessly.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
M and T Bank presents CEOs you Should.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Know, powered by iHeartMedia. Let's meet Bonnie Carroll. She is
the founder and president of the Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors,
also known as TAPS, a nonprofit organization that provides free
care and resources to people grieving the loss of military
or veteran loved one. Before we talk more about Bonnie's
extraordinary thirty year journey with TAPS and her team of
(00:26):
over one hundred and twenty plus not only working domestically
in the United States, but in many other countries. I
first asked Bonnie to talk a little bit about herself,
where she's from and her origin story.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Well, I grew up at Upstate New York, but my
family moved down to Virginia when I was in high school.
I wound up working in politics, worked my way up
and was really honored to have the opportunity to serve
in the White House under several administrations. Concurrent with that,
I joined the Air National Guard, and that was really
(00:56):
to honor my mother's service in the military. He was
a pilot in World War Two. Sadly, she passed away
from cancer when I was a teenager. But you know
those stories of her service, of her pride in the
defense of democracy, and what she was able to do
to participate in this national effort meant so much to
(01:18):
her that it really did inspire me. And I think
joining the Air Guard and then later the Air Force
Reserve was absolutely one of the greatest decisions of my life.
So while I was working for the President in the
West Wing, there was an incident that came along and
it gained a lot of national publicity. It was kind
of this crazy thing where there were three gray whales
(01:40):
stuck in the ice up in the Arctic Circle up
in Alaska, and the President stopped by my office on
his way back to the resident that evening and he said,
you know, he said, you're in the National Guard. He said,
there's something on TV that National Guard's involved. He goes
call someone, you know, see how we can help. And
that phone call that I made was how I met
(02:00):
my husband. So he and I met over this crazy
whale rescue. Universal actually did a movie about it called
Big Miracle about that whale rescue and Tom and I
getting together. But you know, that started this journey of
extraordinary love. My husband was a brilliant army leader. I
(02:21):
was honored to then go to Alaska of course with
him after we married and serve in the Alaska National Guard,
and life just couldn't get any better. We really were
living this amazing dream and all of that came crashing
down when in November of nineteen ninety two, Tom and
seven other soldiers were killed in an army plane crash
(02:43):
in the mountains of Alaska.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Well, listen, first of all, thank you for sharing your
origin story and also a very personal one too, about
how TAPS had started, which we're going to talk about
mission and all the amazing things We've got a lot
to cover because you've been doing TAPS for thirty years
and it really is extraordinary. I do want to ask you.
And also I'm glad you talked about your mom and
also meeting your husband, because every time I talk in
(03:06):
the stories, it never ceases it to amaze me that
it's either a parent, a teacher, or some kind of
mentor that started the building blocks of what we do today,
especially what your passions are. And you know, many times,
like I've had and you've had, you've had tragedy in
your life and it's always how you respond, and you
responded extraordinary with you and your staff and taps and
(03:28):
all that you've done there. So I want to thank
you for sharing all that I did. Want to ask
you if you could just indulge me just for a second,
because living in the DMV, I'm into politics, I'm into
the scene. What was it like to work in the
West Wing during the Reagan administration? It must have been incredible,
But what was it like?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
It was fantastic. It was absolutely wonderful. He was a
great leader. It was just an honor to serve with him.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Really.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
He taught me so much about what a leader should be.
He's always focused on what was best for the country,
best for our people, and that was was blessed. That
was part of my job as as executive Assistant's really
go out and find those ways to engage with the
citizenry to do what was right for America.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So I'm a sports guy and I've been working in
the business for thirty years, and when I go to
a certain stadium or a city, not often do I
get the wow factor Because I'm in the biz, right
so you kind of take it for granted where people
you know, if they go to Yankee Stadium, it's the
most incredible thing that's ever happened. So I've had a
couple of while things over my lifetime with somebody I've
met or a stadium I've been in. Would you went
(04:34):
to the West Wing and you were there? Was it
a wow factor?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Every day? Every day? There wasn't a day that I
didn't walk in the door.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
You have a Marines open the door for you, and
it just really, you know, loved every moment. Knew that
it was a spent you know that we had a
limited amount of time to do good work, to really
execute the legacy and the vision, and to make a difference,
to shore up the national defense, to care for the
citizenry and build a strong economy.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Okay, I fanboid Enough about the West Wing. I want
to talk about taps Down once again. As Bonnie mentioned,
Tragedy Assistant Program for Survivors. So this was founded by
you over thirty years ago. You've kind of hinted about
the start of this, but as you were putting together
the idea of doing this, it's really herculean body and
I'm not sure thirty years ago that you probably figured
(05:22):
out it would be what it is today. But when
you were starting it in the origin of it, how
did it all come together, and what did you want
to do at the very beginning when you put the
organization that's nonprofit together?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Oh, Dennis, at the time up in Alaska, you know,
I was in the National Guard as a traditional reservist,
but then was also working in the Alaska Department of
Law I'd gotten involved in some nonprofits in the community
related to that work. I was on the board of
a group that cared for victim's family members who had
lost a love on to homicide. Was working with an
(05:52):
organization Cops for those who had lost a love one
in law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
So at the time Tom was killed, I knew.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
That there were organizations like this out in the country,
and I just immediately assumed there had to be an
organization for the military. There had to be a place
for all of us grieving the loss and honoring a
life lived in service and defense of democracy, all of
us to come together to find resources, to get support,
to know that we are not alone. And Dennis, I
(06:22):
was stunned to find out it didn't exist, nor had
it ever existed in this country. You know, it took
years really talking to everybody I could find other nonprofits
benchmarking best practices in pure based emotional support and in
grief forcovery, connecting with all the survivors I could find,
(06:43):
And it was real shocking to find out after this
years of needs assessment, gap analysis, it didn't exist.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
But wow was it needed.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So wow, that's an extraordinary just to think. But I
will tell you once again, and I know this is
not going to surprise you, but in this series I
talked to so many people that either invented something or
they've come up with something new to disrupt and then
they change everything. But you know, at one time, folks,
you know, there wasn't Uber, and there wasn't an Apple phone,
(07:15):
and there wasn't help for military families that are grieving
over the lost one, and you would think that there
would be. So that you found that out in a
very shocking way, that's extraordinary in itself. But as you
found that out and you wanted to start the journey,
how did you take it from there? And where did
it go?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You know, it really was examining what exists in the
government and where does that where does that support stop?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And what was the need beyond that?
Speaker 3 (07:41):
General Martin Dempsey, who was the eighteenth Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs is on our board of directors, and he
says it so beautifully. He says, the military does a
magnificent job of rendering final honors, providing a final resting place,
and administering benefits to those who are eligible. But then
(08:02):
it really is incumbent upon the families themselves, upon TAPS
as an organization to open the aperture and provide support
to all those grieving a loss, to bring in resources
and support beyond what the government can provide to be
available twenty four to seven with emotional support. So there's
(08:23):
so much that we do that is a perfect compliment
to the military. And we've had the support of every
chair movement of the Doing Chiefs and all of the
Service causualty branches since that time because they recognize that
this is where families will find hope and healing.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
You know, Bonnie, what I find so extraordinary about you
starting this nonprofit thirty years ago, and for your personal
reasons and then for professional reasons to help all the
hundreds of thousand of the families, and I'm sure you've
helped over the last three decades, is that in life,
when we lose somebody whether they're military or not. Everybody
(08:59):
gathers around, there's a service, there's food, there's fellowship. But
what people don't realize that if you're the person the
loss of family member, that everybody goes back to their
regular life and you're there sitting in it and watching
life go around you. And I imagine that as you
work with these military families that have lost a loved one,
(09:20):
this is where you and your team come in. Which
is the extraordinary thing that life doesn't have to stop
by yourself correct.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Absolutely, and grief is so misunderstood, you know. We tend
to think there is this nice, neat trajectory from the
moment of the death to the funeral and then it's over,
your back to work, three days of areement leave and
you're the same person you were before.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
But it doesn't work like that. You are forever changed.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
You will never be the person you were before that
loss occurred. You have to redefine yourself, You have to
redefine your relationship with a person who died, because there's
still part of your life and they forever will be.
So it taps, you know. We lean in, of course
at the beginning with stabilization, with just grounding for the
(10:07):
families with resources and support whatever is needed in those
first days, weeks, and even months. But then the emotional
support really becomes necessary six months, a year, two years, five,
ten years later.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Well, let's do this. Let's back up just a little bit,
because I want to make sure that we give a
clear education to what TAPS is and what you do.
But before I ask you about that, what is the
mission of TAPS.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
It's to care for all those grieving the loss of
a military or veteran loved one in our community with resources, comfort, care,
and support. TAPS has four core services. We have a
twenty four to seven National Military Survivor Helpline at eight
hundred nine to five nine TAPS. We have casework assistance.
(10:56):
That's so critical for families because government benefits can only
do a very little bit. But we work with casualty
officers every day to meet the needs of families. I'll
give you an example. If a suicide occurs on base
housing and the family just can't emotionally go back into
that house. The government can't pay for a second home
(11:19):
for the families, but they'll quietly call us. We will
take care of that, make sure the family has a
safe place to be. That's just an example of the casework.
Last year, we resolved over six thousand issues related to benefits,
financial concerns, paperwork, all of those complex things that come
not only with federal government benefits, but also state and
(11:43):
private issues closing out a Facebook account or changing a
vehicle title or fixing a headstone inscription. We also have
community based care, connecting families with resources in their local hometown.
We have peer based emotional support connecting families. Last year
we did over thirteen hundred events all across America. Have
(12:07):
a peer Mentor program where we trained families to be there.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
One on one to let survivors know they're not alone
and they're going to make it.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So you mentioned some of the different things that you offer,
and if you go on the website, and we'll give
that several times during our conversation for all our very
brilliant listeners who are already Google taps and what it is,
but resources and programs, there really is a lot there
and no stone is unturned when it comes to the
different things that Bonnie and her team of over one
(12:37):
hundred and twenty people offer twenty four seven sevent days
a week, which is extraordinary in itself. But you know
it's day or night, weekends, holidays, you know it can
happen at any time. But I think a lot of
our listeners as we got everybody's attention, Bonnie about well,
I've got the website, but you know, how do I
connect myself, whatever my affiliation is, whether it's directly or
indirectly with TAPS. How does the whole process start if
(12:59):
they want to take adge of something.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Absolutely, you know we call our helpline. Go on the website.
It's really right up front. How you can sign up
or how you can refer a survivor someone that you
know get them connected. There's this amazing national family of
all of us honoring our heroes and grieving together. There's
so many ways to get involved, and whether that's as
(13:23):
a survivor taking advantage of everything that we can offer,
or as a volunteer, or as a donor. A lot
of people don't understand that the TAPS is a nonprofit
organization and we are made possible because Americans understand service
and sacrifice and they know the price that has been
(13:43):
paid for the defense of our nation.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
So, Bonnie, our listeners know that I'm a seventies kid,
so I grew up where there wasn't the conversation about
mental health and also death by suicide as well. Those
things were not talked about, nor did we really know
about them a lot. And now that I have a
twenty two year old daughter, I'm very educated on a
lot of different things, Like a lot of parents are
out there, and I know a lot of military families
(14:07):
were mental health or or died by suicide. These are
things that are now talked about, and I'm glad they
are because my daughter's peer group and also celebrities and
sports athletes that are in their twenties on social media
talking about all these things, which is normalizing things that
maybe you and I didn't talk about as young people.
And I imagine over the ebbs and flows of the
(14:27):
three decades when you started this organization to where you
are now that there's open dialogue about all these things,
which is so refreshing and healthy. It must be just
so exciting for you and your team. That stigma that
we can chat about this but we can also help
you with it is just extraordinary. Another part of what
TAPS do ues correct absolutely.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Dennis, thank you for raising that, you know, we began
to see this trend and very sadly and suicide loss.
Back twenty years ago in the military, I actually was
appointed to co chair the Department a Defense Task Force
on the Prevention of Suicide by Members of the Armed Forces,
and we held our first hearing with our TAPS surviving
(15:09):
families of suicide loss. They actually in telling the stories
of their loved ones, who they were, what the family
had learned on the insights gained on the look back
through their lives, and then their actionable recommendations. We identified
five risk factors that were present in almost every suicide
(15:29):
and those really created the foundation for how we built
prevention efforts for the Defense Department.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Bunnie, can you tell me about maybe some of the
current challenges that you and your team are facing today.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Well, we just talked about one of the biggest ones,
and that is suicide in the military. Back ten years ago,
TAPS had about three thousand newly bereeves surviving family members
coming to us for care. This past year, we've had
over ten thousand surviving family members, and one third of
those three thousand individuals we're grieving the loss of a
(16:03):
love one to suicide in the military. En veteran community,
and I don't think people understand that twenty years of
deployments of combat service have really come home now to
result in post traumatic stress and undiagnosed traumatic brain injury
that has resulted in a suicide loss to the illnesses
(16:25):
as a result of exposures to toxins well deployed and
succumbing to injuries that occurred on the battlefield. You know, Dennis,
we have advanced so much with medical technology in the
military that we can keep a person alive in the
most terrific environment and combat, after explosions, after blasts, after engagements,
(16:47):
we can get them into that evac helicopter and off
to a field hospital and under extraordinary circumstances save a life.
But then it could result in a family becoming caregivers
for the days, weeks, months, years following, and very sadly,
that could ultimately result in the death. And for the
(17:09):
family it's a very complicated loss. Blessed that they had
the additional time with their loved one, but so difficult
to have spent that time to watch their love on soffer.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Well, I know these are tough conversations, but I'm glad
we talked about it because I think it's one thing
to lose somebody when you're a military family and somebody
you might get killed in action or son accident, it
might have happened, but when it's died by suicide, that's
a whole other level. And I've talked to enough organizations
to know that there are so many things that happened afterwards,
(17:42):
about questioning yourself and also your partner that had happened
to and all the things and just the reverberations that
it has for the rest of your life and how
you'll have to talk about that and deal with it.
So I'm glad you and your team are there for that,
because that's just a whole other level about what we
have to experience when it comes to our military. I
did want to talk about also some great things, because
(18:02):
over the thirty years, I imagine you have hundreds of
thousands bonding of great stories of at least helping families
get to the next level and dealing with some of
the very tough things that can happen when it comes
to somebody being lost in the military. With that said,
maybe just maybe the last couple of years, is there
anything that has touched you and your team that you
(18:23):
are most proud of, because one of the things when
I get to talk to people like you is that
beside helping all these different families, whether it's good, bad,
or the ugly, and it all comes in one big
ball and I get all that. But also there's a
reason why you get up every morning. You and your
team do this because something special happens. Can you share
something with us?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Our staff ATTACKS is really primarily made up of survivors.
They have advanced degrees. We have several who even have
PhDs now, but many have masters and counseling or social work.
But they're bringing their personal life experience forward and they're
connecting with survivors to let them know they're not alone,
you know, to talk to someone in those early days
(19:03):
who may think they're the only person who has lost
a twin to suicide, and to talk to another twin
who lost their sibling to suicide. To ask those questions
in a safe space without judgment. To be able to
have those raw, authentic conversations is invaluable. Grief is not
(19:24):
a mental illness, right you know, It isn't a physical injury.
I wish you could take a pill or put a
bandage on it. But grief is the normal human response
to loss. Grief is a broken heart and the only
thing we can do is come together with others who
can understand that and give us the space to find
(19:45):
resolution within ourselves, to redefine our relationship with the person
we have lost, and to redefine who we are now
going forward.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So well said, thank you for that. So there are
are a lot of ways to support and also help
out TAPS. You can volunteer, there's a legacy and military mentorship,
there's Team TAPS, the Honor Guard. Also of course donations
your online store. Can you go over all the ways,
because I'm glad that you've covered so many different ways
(20:16):
that you can help out TAPS. But I just kind
of touched the tip of the iceberg. But let's let
our listeners know how they can be part of TAPS
and help out absolutely well.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
We would love to have folks volunteer to donate to support.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
We have our gala coming up. It'll be our.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Thirtieth gala and the TAPS dot org slash Gala is
where you can find out more information. But for your
listeners here in the DC area, this is an extraordinary event.
It's March twenty fifth. We bring in surviving families, senior
military leadership, all of our supporters. It's a wonderful evening
at the National Building Museum to honor American service and
(20:54):
sacrifice and support our mission outstanding.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Well, let's do this. We've talked about so much, and
I wanted to just kind of recap your thoughts, Bonnie
and dis go over a few more things and remind
people about the website, the phone number. But we'd like
to give the floor to you just one more time
and just go over everything we chat about. Thank you
so much. In the floor is yours?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Well, thank you, Dennis.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to honor our
families by sharing their story with your listeners. TAPS is
America's family of all those whose loved ones have paid
the ultimate price for the defense of this nation and
the freedoms that we all enjoy. We are an essential
partner of the United States Military, providing comfort, care and
(21:37):
resources to everyone who is grieving. And this extends far
beyond those eligible for government benefits. You know, people don't
realize that at TAPS we have hundreds of thousands of families.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Last year alone.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
There were over ten thousand new survivors who came to
us seeking the kind of comfort and care. But that
children going to the Good Grief Camp, families calling our
helpline in the middle of the night, or adults just
wanting to talk to someone else who gets it, who
can walk this journey with them. So thank you for
the chance to share this mission. Let you know that
(22:13):
for your surviving families in the audience, they are not alone.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Well, it is our pleasure. And remember, folks, the website,
which is easy to navigate, it's beautiful, bonding. Your team
has done a great job of making it beautiful, easy
to read. Lots on there with resources, programs, the supporting
that we talked about, all the events that you do,
all the different things for the gala coming up, there's
lots of stuff. Once again, let's give the website and
the phone number to everybody one more time.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Great it's TAPS dot org. Follow us on social media
at taps org and our phone number for the helpline
is eight hundred nine nine TAPS. That's eight hundred nine
eight two seven seven.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
All right, And before I go, and I'd be remiss
if I didn't say and without embarrassing you even further
about talking about the West Wing and all the cool
things that you've done before you started TAPS. Bonnie is
also a twenty fifteen Presidential Medal of Freedom. Obama gave
it to you. I imagine that was pretty extraordinary on
the top three list of maybe cool things, beside maybe
(23:12):
getting married and whatever else extraordinary things have happened in
your life. But what was that like?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
You know President Obama and actually he and his wife
became dear friends. They worked very closely with us because
he carried the weight of the losses in Iraq and Afghanistan,
and it was important to him that our organization was
there side by side with every family who got that
knock on the door. So this really was a recognition
of the support that TAPS, alongside the military, was able
(23:41):
to do to honor every sacrifice by caring for all
those graving the loss.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Bonnie. I know that we condensed your thirty years in
only twenty five minutes. This is fun for me. I
could talk to you for hours about all the incredible
things that you and your team do. I just want
to thank you so much for your valuable time in
this series. I get to talk to some extraordinary people.
You and your team are angels. You're doing great work
for our military and their families. I just want to
thank you so much for being a part of this
series and CEOs you should Know continue success and I
(24:09):
hope we get a chance to speak with you down
the road.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Great Dennis, thank you so much. This is wonderful.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
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Speaker 2 (00:03):
Know, powered by iHeartMedia. Let's meet Bonnie Carroll. She is
the founder and president of the Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors,
also known as TAPS, a nonprofit organization that provides free
care and resources to people grieving the loss of military
or veteran loved one. Before we talk more about Bonnie's
extraordinary thirty year journey with TAPS and her team of
(00:26):
over one hundred and twenty plus not only working domestically
in the United States, but in many other countries. I
first asked Bonnie to talk a little bit about herself,
where she's from and her origin story.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Well, I grew up at Upstate New York, but my
family moved down to Virginia when I was in high school.
I wound up working in politics, worked my way up
and was really honored to have the opportunity to serve
in the White House under several administrations. Concurrent with that,
I joined the Air National Guard, and that was really
(00:56):
to honor my mother's service in the military. He was
a pilot in World War Two. Sadly, she passed away
from cancer when I was a teenager. But you know
those stories of her service, of her pride in the
defense of democracy, and what she was able to do
to participate in this national effort meant so much to
(01:18):
her that it really did inspire me. And I think
joining the Air Guard and then later the Air Force
Reserve was absolutely one of the greatest decisions of my life.
So while I was working for the President in the
West Wing, there was an incident that came along and
it gained a lot of national publicity. It was kind
of this crazy thing where there were three gray whales
(01:40):
stuck in the ice up in the Arctic Circle up
in Alaska, and the President stopped by my office on
his way back to the resident that evening and he said,
you know, he said, you're in the National Guard. He said,
there's something on TV that National Guard's involved. He goes
call someone, you know, see how we can help. And
that phone call that I made was how I met
(02:00):
my husband. So he and I met over this crazy
whale rescue. Universal actually did a movie about it called
Big Miracle about that whale rescue and Tom and I
getting together. But you know, that started this journey of
extraordinary love. My husband was a brilliant army leader. I
(02:21):
was honored to then go to Alaska of course with
him after we married and serve in the Alaska National Guard,
and life just couldn't get any better. We really were
living this amazing dream and all of that came crashing
down when in November of nineteen ninety two, Tom and
seven other soldiers were killed in an army plane crash
(02:43):
in the mountains of Alaska.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Well, listen, first of all, thank you for sharing your
origin story and also a very personal one too, about
how TAPS had started, which we're going to talk about
mission and all the amazing things We've got a lot
to cover because you've been doing TAPS for thirty years
and it really is extraordinary. I do want to ask you.
And also I'm glad you talked about your mom and
also meeting your husband, because every time I talk in
(03:06):
the stories, it never ceases it to amaze me that
it's either a parent, a teacher, or some kind of
mentor that started the building blocks of what we do today,
especially what your passions are. And you know, many times,
like I've had and you've had, you've had tragedy in
your life and it's always how you respond, and you
responded extraordinary with you and your staff and taps and
(03:28):
all that you've done there. So I want to thank
you for sharing all that I did. Want to ask
you if you could just indulge me just for a second,
because living in the DMV, I'm into politics, I'm into
the scene. What was it like to work in the
West Wing during the Reagan administration? It must have been incredible,
But what was it like?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
It was fantastic. It was absolutely wonderful. He was a
great leader. It was just an honor to serve with him.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Really.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
He taught me so much about what a leader should be.
He's always focused on what was best for the country,
best for our people, and that was was blessed. That
was part of my job as as executive Assistant's really
go out and find those ways to engage with the
citizenry to do what was right for America.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So I'm a sports guy and I've been working in
the business for thirty years, and when I go to
a certain stadium or a city, not often do I
get the wow factor Because I'm in the biz, right
so you kind of take it for granted where people
you know, if they go to Yankee Stadium, it's the
most incredible thing that's ever happened. So I've had a
couple of while things over my lifetime with somebody I've
met or a stadium I've been in. Would you went
(04:34):
to the West Wing and you were there? Was it
a wow factor?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Every day? Every day? There wasn't a day that I
didn't walk in the door.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
You have a Marines open the door for you, and
it just really, you know, loved every moment. Knew that
it was a spent you know that we had a
limited amount of time to do good work, to really
execute the legacy and the vision, and to make a difference,
to shore up the national defense, to care for the
citizenry and build a strong economy.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Okay, I fanboid Enough about the West Wing. I want
to talk about taps Down once again. As Bonnie mentioned,
Tragedy Assistant Program for Survivors. So this was founded by
you over thirty years ago. You've kind of hinted about
the start of this, but as you were putting together
the idea of doing this, it's really herculean body and
I'm not sure thirty years ago that you probably figured
(05:22):
out it would be what it is today. But when
you were starting it in the origin of it, how
did it all come together, and what did you want
to do at the very beginning when you put the
organization that's nonprofit together?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Oh, Dennis, at the time up in Alaska, you know,
I was in the National Guard as a traditional reservist,
but then was also working in the Alaska Department of
Law I'd gotten involved in some nonprofits in the community
related to that work. I was on the board of
a group that cared for victim's family members who had
lost a love on to homicide. Was working with an
(05:52):
organization Cops for those who had lost a love one
in law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
So at the time Tom was killed, I knew.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
That there were organizations like this out in the country,
and I just immediately assumed there had to be an
organization for the military. There had to be a place
for all of us grieving the loss and honoring a
life lived in service and defense of democracy, all of
us to come together to find resources, to get support,
to know that we are not alone. And Dennis, I
(06:22):
was stunned to find out it didn't exist, nor had
it ever existed in this country. You know, it took
years really talking to everybody I could find other nonprofits
benchmarking best practices in pure based emotional support and in
grief forcovery, connecting with all the survivors I could find,
(06:43):
And it was real shocking to find out after this
years of needs assessment, gap analysis, it didn't exist.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
But wow was it needed.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So wow, that's an extraordinary just to think. But I
will tell you once again, and I know this is
not going to surprise you, but in this series I
talked to so many people that either invented something or
they've come up with something new to disrupt and then
they change everything. But you know, at one time, folks,
you know, there wasn't Uber, and there wasn't an Apple phone,
(07:15):
and there wasn't help for military families that are grieving
over the lost one, and you would think that there
would be. So that you found that out in a
very shocking way, that's extraordinary in itself. But as you
found that out and you wanted to start the journey,
how did you take it from there? And where did
it go?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You know, it really was examining what exists in the
government and where does that where does that support stop?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And what was the need beyond that?
Speaker 3 (07:41):
General Martin Dempsey, who was the eighteenth Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs is on our board of directors, and he
says it so beautifully. He says, the military does a
magnificent job of rendering final honors, providing a final resting place,
and administering benefits to those who are eligible. But then
(08:02):
it really is incumbent upon the families themselves, upon TAPS
as an organization to open the aperture and provide support
to all those grieving a loss, to bring in resources
and support beyond what the government can provide to be
available twenty four to seven with emotional support. So there's
(08:23):
so much that we do that is a perfect compliment
to the military. And we've had the support of every
chair movement of the Doing Chiefs and all of the
Service causualty branches since that time because they recognize that
this is where families will find hope and healing.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
You know, Bonnie, what I find so extraordinary about you
starting this nonprofit thirty years ago, and for your personal
reasons and then for professional reasons to help all the
hundreds of thousand of the families, and I'm sure you've
helped over the last three decades, is that in life,
when we lose somebody whether they're military or not. Everybody
(08:59):
gathers around, there's a service, there's food, there's fellowship. But
what people don't realize that if you're the person the
loss of family member, that everybody goes back to their
regular life and you're there sitting in it and watching
life go around you. And I imagine that as you
work with these military families that have lost a loved one,
(09:20):
this is where you and your team come in. Which
is the extraordinary thing that life doesn't have to stop
by yourself correct.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Absolutely, and grief is so misunderstood, you know. We tend
to think there is this nice, neat trajectory from the
moment of the death to the funeral and then it's over,
your back to work, three days of areement leave and
you're the same person you were before.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
But it doesn't work like that. You are forever changed.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
You will never be the person you were before that
loss occurred. You have to redefine yourself, You have to
redefine your relationship with a person who died, because there's
still part of your life and they forever will be.
So it taps, you know. We lean in, of course
at the beginning with stabilization, with just grounding for the
(10:07):
families with resources and support whatever is needed in those
first days, weeks, and even months. But then the emotional
support really becomes necessary six months, a year, two years, five,
ten years later.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Well, let's do this. Let's back up just a little bit,
because I want to make sure that we give a
clear education to what TAPS is and what you do.
But before I ask you about that, what is the
mission of TAPS.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
It's to care for all those grieving the loss of
a military or veteran loved one in our community with resources, comfort, care,
and support. TAPS has four core services. We have a
twenty four to seven National Military Survivor Helpline at eight
hundred nine to five nine TAPS. We have casework assistance.
(10:56):
That's so critical for families because government benefits can only
do a very little bit. But we work with casualty
officers every day to meet the needs of families. I'll
give you an example. If a suicide occurs on base
housing and the family just can't emotionally go back into
that house. The government can't pay for a second home
(11:19):
for the families, but they'll quietly call us. We will
take care of that, make sure the family has a
safe place to be. That's just an example of the casework.
Last year, we resolved over six thousand issues related to benefits,
financial concerns, paperwork, all of those complex things that come
not only with federal government benefits, but also state and
(11:43):
private issues closing out a Facebook account or changing a
vehicle title or fixing a headstone inscription. We also have
community based care, connecting families with resources in their local hometown.
We have peer based emotional support connecting families. Last year
we did over thirteen hundred events all across America. Have
(12:07):
a peer Mentor program where we trained families to be there.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
One on one to let survivors know they're not alone
and they're going to make it.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So you mentioned some of the different things that you offer,
and if you go on the website, and we'll give
that several times during our conversation for all our very
brilliant listeners who are already Google taps and what it is,
but resources and programs, there really is a lot there
and no stone is unturned when it comes to the
different things that Bonnie and her team of over one
(12:37):
hundred and twenty people offer twenty four seven sevent days
a week, which is extraordinary in itself. But you know
it's day or night, weekends, holidays, you know it can
happen at any time. But I think a lot of
our listeners as we got everybody's attention, Bonnie about well,
I've got the website, but you know, how do I
connect myself, whatever my affiliation is, whether it's directly or
indirectly with TAPS. How does the whole process start if
(12:59):
they want to take adge of something.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Absolutely, you know we call our helpline. Go on the website.
It's really right up front. How you can sign up
or how you can refer a survivor someone that you
know get them connected. There's this amazing national family of
all of us honoring our heroes and grieving together. There's
so many ways to get involved, and whether that's as
(13:23):
a survivor taking advantage of everything that we can offer,
or as a volunteer, or as a donor. A lot
of people don't understand that the TAPS is a nonprofit
organization and we are made possible because Americans understand service
and sacrifice and they know the price that has been
(13:43):
paid for the defense of our nation.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
So, Bonnie, our listeners know that I'm a seventies kid,
so I grew up where there wasn't the conversation about
mental health and also death by suicide as well. Those
things were not talked about, nor did we really know
about them a lot. And now that I have a
twenty two year old daughter, I'm very educated on a
lot of different things, Like a lot of parents are
out there, and I know a lot of military families
(14:07):
were mental health or or died by suicide. These are
things that are now talked about, and I'm glad they
are because my daughter's peer group and also celebrities and
sports athletes that are in their twenties on social media
talking about all these things, which is normalizing things that
maybe you and I didn't talk about as young people.
And I imagine over the ebbs and flows of the
(14:27):
three decades when you started this organization to where you
are now that there's open dialogue about all these things,
which is so refreshing and healthy. It must be just
so exciting for you and your team. That stigma that
we can chat about this but we can also help
you with it is just extraordinary. Another part of what
TAPS do ues correct absolutely.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Dennis, thank you for raising that, you know, we began
to see this trend and very sadly and suicide loss.
Back twenty years ago in the military, I actually was
appointed to co chair the Department a Defense Task Force
on the Prevention of Suicide by Members of the Armed Forces,
and we held our first hearing with our TAPS surviving
(15:09):
families of suicide loss. They actually in telling the stories
of their loved ones, who they were, what the family
had learned on the insights gained on the look back
through their lives, and then their actionable recommendations. We identified
five risk factors that were present in almost every suicide
(15:29):
and those really created the foundation for how we built
prevention efforts for the Defense Department.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Bunnie, can you tell me about maybe some of the
current challenges that you and your team are facing today.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Well, we just talked about one of the biggest ones,
and that is suicide in the military. Back ten years ago,
TAPS had about three thousand newly bereeves surviving family members
coming to us for care. This past year, we've had
over ten thousand surviving family members, and one third of
those three thousand individuals we're grieving the loss of a
(16:03):
love one to suicide in the military. En veteran community,
and I don't think people understand that twenty years of
deployments of combat service have really come home now to
result in post traumatic stress and undiagnosed traumatic brain injury
that has resulted in a suicide loss to the illnesses
(16:25):
as a result of exposures to toxins well deployed and
succumbing to injuries that occurred on the battlefield. You know, Dennis,
we have advanced so much with medical technology in the
military that we can keep a person alive in the
most terrific environment and combat, after explosions, after blasts, after engagements,
(16:47):
we can get them into that evac helicopter and off
to a field hospital and under extraordinary circumstances save a life.
But then it could result in a family becoming caregivers
for the days, weeks, months, years following, and very sadly,
that could ultimately result in the death. And for the
(17:09):
family it's a very complicated loss. Blessed that they had
the additional time with their loved one, but so difficult
to have spent that time to watch their love on soffer.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Well, I know these are tough conversations, but I'm glad
we talked about it because I think it's one thing
to lose somebody when you're a military family and somebody
you might get killed in action or son accident, it
might have happened, but when it's died by suicide, that's
a whole other level. And I've talked to enough organizations
to know that there are so many things that happened afterwards,
(17:42):
about questioning yourself and also your partner that had happened
to and all the things and just the reverberations that
it has for the rest of your life and how
you'll have to talk about that and deal with it.
So I'm glad you and your team are there for that,
because that's just a whole other level about what we
have to experience when it comes to our military. I
did want to talk about also some great things, because
(18:02):
over the thirty years, I imagine you have hundreds of
thousands bonding of great stories of at least helping families
get to the next level and dealing with some of
the very tough things that can happen when it comes
to somebody being lost in the military. With that said,
maybe just maybe the last couple of years, is there
anything that has touched you and your team that you
(18:23):
are most proud of, because one of the things when
I get to talk to people like you is that
beside helping all these different families, whether it's good, bad,
or the ugly, and it all comes in one big
ball and I get all that. But also there's a
reason why you get up every morning. You and your
team do this because something special happens. Can you share
something with us?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Our staff ATTACKS is really primarily made up of survivors.
They have advanced degrees. We have several who even have
PhDs now, but many have masters and counseling or social work.
But they're bringing their personal life experience forward and they're
connecting with survivors to let them know they're not alone,
you know, to talk to someone in those early days
(19:03):
who may think they're the only person who has lost
a twin to suicide, and to talk to another twin
who lost their sibling to suicide. To ask those questions
in a safe space without judgment. To be able to
have those raw, authentic conversations is invaluable. Grief is not
(19:24):
a mental illness, right you know, It isn't a physical injury.
I wish you could take a pill or put a
bandage on it. But grief is the normal human response
to loss. Grief is a broken heart and the only
thing we can do is come together with others who
can understand that and give us the space to find
(19:45):
resolution within ourselves, to redefine our relationship with the person
we have lost, and to redefine who we are now
going forward.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So well said, thank you for that. So there are
are a lot of ways to support and also help
out TAPS. You can volunteer, there's a legacy and military mentorship,
there's Team TAPS, the Honor Guard. Also of course donations
your online store. Can you go over all the ways,
because I'm glad that you've covered so many different ways
(20:16):
that you can help out TAPS. But I just kind
of touched the tip of the iceberg. But let's let
our listeners know how they can be part of TAPS
and help out absolutely well.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
We would love to have folks volunteer to donate to support.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
We have our gala coming up. It'll be our.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Thirtieth gala and the TAPS dot org slash Gala is
where you can find out more information. But for your
listeners here in the DC area, this is an extraordinary event.
It's March twenty fifth. We bring in surviving families, senior
military leadership, all of our supporters. It's a wonderful evening
at the National Building Museum to honor American service and
(20:54):
sacrifice and support our mission outstanding.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Well, let's do this. We've talked about so much, and
I wanted to just kind of recap your thoughts, Bonnie
and dis go over a few more things and remind
people about the website, the phone number. But we'd like
to give the floor to you just one more time
and just go over everything we chat about. Thank you
so much. In the floor is yours?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Well, thank you, Dennis.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to honor our
families by sharing their story with your listeners. TAPS is
America's family of all those whose loved ones have paid
the ultimate price for the defense of this nation and
the freedoms that we all enjoy. We are an essential
partner of the United States Military, providing comfort, care and
(21:37):
resources to everyone who is grieving. And this extends far
beyond those eligible for government benefits. You know, people don't
realize that at TAPS we have hundreds of thousands of families.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Last year alone.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
There were over ten thousand new survivors who came to
us seeking the kind of comfort and care. But that
children going to the Good Grief Camp, families calling our
helpline in the middle of the night, or adults just
wanting to talk to someone else who gets it, who
can walk this journey with them. So thank you for
the chance to share this mission. Let you know that
(22:13):
for your surviving families in the audience, they are not alone.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Well, it is our pleasure. And remember, folks, the website,
which is easy to navigate, it's beautiful, bonding. Your team
has done a great job of making it beautiful, easy
to read. Lots on there with resources, programs, the supporting
that we talked about, all the events that you do,
all the different things for the gala coming up, there's
lots of stuff. Once again, let's give the website and
the phone number to everybody one more time.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Great it's TAPS dot org. Follow us on social media
at taps org and our phone number for the helpline
is eight hundred nine nine TAPS. That's eight hundred nine
eight two seven seven.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
All right, And before I go, and I'd be remiss
if I didn't say and without embarrassing you even further
about talking about the West Wing and all the cool
things that you've done before you started TAPS. Bonnie is
also a twenty fifteen Presidential Medal of Freedom. Obama gave
it to you. I imagine that was pretty extraordinary on
the top three list of maybe cool things, beside maybe
(23:12):
getting married and whatever else extraordinary things have happened in
your life. But what was that like?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
You know President Obama and actually he and his wife
became dear friends. They worked very closely with us because
he carried the weight of the losses in Iraq and Afghanistan,
and it was important to him that our organization was
there side by side with every family who got that
knock on the door. So this really was a recognition
of the support that TAPS, alongside the military, was able
(23:41):
to do to honor every sacrifice by caring for all
those graving the loss.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Bonnie. I know that we condensed your thirty years in
only twenty five minutes. This is fun for me. I
could talk to you for hours about all the incredible
things that you and your team do. I just want
to thank you so much for your valuable time in
this series. I get to talk to some extraordinary people.
You and your team are angels. You're doing great work
for our military and their families. I just want to
thank you so much for being a part of this
series and CEOs you should Know continue success and I
(24:09):
hope we get a chance to speak with you down
the road.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Great Dennis, thank you so much. This is wonderful.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Our community partner, M and T Bank supports CEOs you
should Know as part of their ongoing commitment to building
strong communities, and that starts by backing the businesses within them.
As a Bank for communities, M and T believes in
dedicating time, talent, and resources to help local businesses thrive,
because when businesses succeed, our communities succeed.
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