August 5, 2025 • 14 mins
Zack Smith, from the Heritage Foundation, wrote a piece recently where he offered some thoughts about one part of the SBC worth paying attention to ... not all in the audience were happy with his observations. It should be noted, Zack is a member of the Southern Baptist Church.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
And here we go into the third and final hour
at least for today of the Morning Show with Preston,
Scott eas OAZIAHM. Preston. It is July thirty first, friends,
and we thank you as always for joining us, whether
you are listening on terrestrial radio or iHeartRadio ruminators, we
appreciate it and we are thrilled to have back with us.
(00:26):
One of our faves, Zack Smith, works with the Heritage
Foundation and he's written a piece entitled the Southern Baptist Conventions.
Theological commitments are worthless if they can't be in the
public sphere. And Zach, welcome to the show again. How
are you.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm doing well, Thanks for having me on this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
When I saw this as a former vocational pastor and
knowing the Southeast as the Bible belt that it is,
I was fascinated by this piece. Before we go back
into some of the digging that you did going one
hundred years or so back, let's go to what prompted this,
(01:05):
why the decision to write this piece.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, so I am a Southern Baptist, attend to Southern
Baptist Church and over in Pensacola, and I was able
to attend. I was blessed enough to attend the Southern
Baptist Convention in Dallas, Texas this year, and I was
able to see some of the debates that took place
on the floor, able to hear some of the disputes
that have been taking place, and you know, with my
work at the Heritage Foundation as well, I'm able to
see why it's happening both in Tallahassee and in Washington,
(01:32):
DC here and how Southern Baptists have engaged with some
of the very important issues that have been coming up
over the past several years. And so I thought now
was a good time to talk about what Southern Baptist
police are and how Southern Baptists have engaged with the
political world in particular.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
If I were to be overly broad, and of course
I am notorious for painting with a very big paint brush, Zach,
it would seem to me that the SBC has found
itself in some rough waters in the last couple of decades.
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I think it is a fair statement. Now, Look, I
don't want to be a doom and gloom too much,
and I think there is good news and maybe some
areas for improvement. Coming out of the convention in Dallas.
The good news, and I talk about this in my piece,
is that Southern Baptists seem by and large to be
on the same page about their core theological convictions. Obviously
(02:31):
sharing the gospel across the globe, helping to plant churches,
affirming God's good design of two genders, pushing back against
things like pornography, sports betting. Southern Baptists are overwhelmingly on
the same page about confronting those issues, saying they're bad.
Where things get a little more tricky, and I think
where you're seeing some disagreement is about how to translate
(02:55):
those theological convictions into the public sphere of what is
the best tactics, what are the best entities designed to
do that? That is where we've seen a lot of
disagreement over the past several years.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Let's for the we got a couple of minutes before
we take a quick break here. Let's where does the
Scopes monkey trial fit into this arc of research that
you did im penning this piece.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, so I looked back. You know, the Scopes monkey
trial took place one hundred years ago last week, and
obviously that was the trial that was purported to put
God against evolution. It was by William Jennings. Bryan and
Clarence Darrow were the attorneys, and I teed that up
as the intro to my pleat piece because shortly after
that trial started, Southern Baptists met in nineteen twenty five,
(03:45):
and just like this past year in Dallas, Texas, in
nineteen twenty five, Southern Baptists were confronted with one finalizing
and formalizing what their core theological convictions were going to
be as an entity, and then also how to translate
those theological convictions into the public square. And so you know,
many of the issues that were being confronted one hundred
(04:06):
years ago, Southern Baptists are still having to confront in
a new way today.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Well, it's interesting because we we we were on this topic.
I do a devotional to start the show every morning,
and one of the things we talked about is that
though technology changes and we think we are more enlightened today,
in reality, nothing much has changed since the Fall since
the garden. Sin is sin and its and and Jesus
(04:34):
called us to engage the culture without compromising our faith.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
That is absolutely right, and I think you know the
form that some of the issues we're confronted today is
a little bit different. I doubt the Southern Baptist in
nineteen twenty five could have foreseen the rise of technology,
things like iPhones I've had had, the Internet, and the
unfortunately the omnipresent scourge of pornography that's so prevalent in
(05:01):
society today. But you're absolutely right. Fundamentally, many of the
issues are the same.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Whether you are a Southern Baptist or not. This is
a very interesting and I think important topic because there
are so many that are and if you've listened to
this program at all, you know that my constant challenge
to you is to not make church attendance like you're
(05:31):
paying your fire insurance premium. Don't treat it like you're
checking a box. It's much greater than that, Zach. Is
this discussion maybe debate inside the SBC about how to
go about being relevant in culture? Is it about, you know,
(05:52):
whether you're going to be a street preacher or whether
you're going to be a lifestyle evangelist, or is it
far more nuanced than that.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Well, I think there is some of that debate happening.
And look, I'll echo what you said just a minute ago,
prestim the Southern Baptist Convention. We are the largest Protestant
denomination in the United States today. Historically, Southern Baptists have
been active in politics and have influenced the culture in
an outsized way. And so I think what happens in
(06:19):
the SBC, You're absolutely right, does affect certainly everyone who
cares about many of these same issues, regardless of whether
or not you're Southern Baptist yourself or not. But yes,
part of the debate we're seeing in particular stems around
how to engage with some of the political battles we're
seeing today. Obviously, I think we can all agree prayer,
having conversations with family, friends, and neighbors, those are vitally
(06:43):
important things to do. But one of the entities of
the SBC itself is called the Ethics and Religious Liberty
Commission the e ORLC, and that's been a very controversial
entity within the SBC because by and large it has
taken positions over the past several years do not align
with where a majority of Southern Baptists are on certain
(07:04):
political issues, or they haven't agreed with how Southern Baptists
think that we should translate certain of those theological commitments
into the public square. The leadership has been somewhat controversial.
Is formally headed by doctor Russell Moore, who has since
left the Southern Baptist Convention and has taken, from my view,
some theologically problematic positions in his new role. But so
(07:29):
these are the types of debates that we are having,
and I think you'll continue to see that, particularly unfortunately
some controversies surrounding the ERLC over the coming year in
the lead up to the next Southern Baptist Convention in Orlando, Florida.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Zach, is it look I I have long wrestled with
these issues, not just in in vocational ministry, and you
might well could guess that I was pretty direct in
the pulpit about stuff like this. I don't necessarily think
that we ought to be worried what a majority of
(08:05):
Southern Baptists, or a majority of Christians, or a majority
of a Church of God, or anybody thinks. What does
God's words say about this? Is the problem with the
Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission a matter of quote interpretation
of scripture? Or is it just kind of the watering
(08:28):
down of what God's word says well, I think.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
It may be with both. It may be a matter
of interpretation in some ways. And so one of the
flashpoints in recent years has been over immigration. What does
the Bible say about immigration? How should we deal with
many of the issues we're facing the day. And unfortunately,
just in recent weeks, the eROC has that come out
and publicly backed a bill that would essentially grant amnesty
(08:55):
to many individuals. Now, I think you can have disagreements
about whether that's good or bad. I personally think that
is a bad thing. I do not think we should
support amnesty. But to come out and say that in
some ways the Bible would compel certain positions, particularly on
these very controversial issues surround the immigration and other entities,
I think that is what's frustrated many Southern Baptists, because
(09:17):
I think you can make a case in the opposite
direction that in fact, we need to have secure borders,
we need to enforce our laws, and I don't think
there's anything unbiblical about taking that position. And so I
think that tension is what many in the Southern Baptist
Convention have found particularly troubling and particularly problematic.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Fact, with Zach Smith talking about a piece about the
Southern Baptist Church and the theological commitments and their relative expression,
if you will, in the public square. We talked earlier
this week in a sort of the start of the
week devotional about you know, hugging close to Jesus, because
if he's the light of the world and we're living
in a dark world, you can't really go wrong if
(10:02):
you hug right there to his hip, because he's going
to illuminate the path for us. And the Old Testament
had something to say about that, But Zach, it gets
muddy sometimes when politics and personal opinions start to take
maybe precedent over what God says simply in his word.
And I want to circle back to the ERLC, the
(10:24):
Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. There have been some concerns
there and a bit of a lightning rod is developing.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Right, Yeah, that's right. And look, I think we talked
about the immigration context specifically. One of the major controversies
around the ELC is they have partnered with groups that
have taken money from George Soros and other very left
leaning individuals who unfortunately are not followers of Christ and
who unfortunately have pushed policies that are in direct contravention
(10:51):
to what the Bible requires. And so I think many
Southern Baptists, once they understand that, asked, why has the
ERLC partnered with these other organizations? Now, certainly, in some areas,
you know, there may be opportunities to partner and work
with non believers to provide you know, good services or
support to communities, particularly during times of crisis. But on
(11:14):
many of these important public policy debates where you know
this ELC is trying to invoke Biblical authority in sometimes
questionable ways and then partnering with these other organizations. Again,
I think that's why so many Southern Baptists are asking
questions and are so concerned about the direction the LC
has taken in recent years.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
So did the last convention really settle much? And what's
left on the table for the next one on this issue?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So it's good news and bad news. As I mentioned
at the top of the show or the top of
the segment, the Southern Baptist did pass very good resolution.
To Andrew Walker, he's a professor at one of the seminaries,
Southern Baptist seminaries. He was in charge of the resolutions committee,
and he passed a number of excellent resolutions again on
things like affirming God's good design related to marriage, affirming
(12:07):
things like the two biological sexes, affirming scriptural and errancy.
Many great things happening. The bad news again is that
how to translate this into the public sphere. There is
debate on that. So I think in Orlando we're going
to see potentially conversations about the ELC against over forty percent,
(12:28):
almost forty two percent of Southern Baptist messengers actually voted
to abolish the EERLC at the convention in Dallas, Texas.
That's an astounding statistic, and so we'll have to see
if that conversation continues in Orlando. There's also conversations about
whether Biblity women can be pastors and how to respond
to churches that have ordained women pastors in their poolpits,
(12:52):
And so I think those types of conversations are still
going to have to be had when the next convention
happens in of next year in Orlando.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Are you going?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
A year is a long way away, and certainly, if
God is gracious enough to let me go, I'll plan
to be there.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
When you step away from it. Now you've written the
piece you said, the feedback to this has been generally positive.
Has the issue crystallized for you? The issues? Have they
crystallized for you at all?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Well? I think they have in some ways. I mean, look,
I think many of these issues, as we were talking
about earlier, the Bible is clear how to address them.
You know, it may sometimes be uncomfortable, it may sometimes
not be easy to follow through with the Bible's commands,
but I think that is what we are called to
do it. And look, I think it's important to understand
(13:50):
as well, Preston, keep in mind that there are many
battles we can agree on, things that we agree we
need to confront, you know, across the political spectrum. In
my hometown in Pensacola, Florida, for example, our city owned
local theater has decided to host a drad show mocking
Christ two days before Christmas last year, the Sancor Theater
(14:13):
in Pensacola, Florida. And so I think all Southern Baptists,
all Christians, and frankly, anyone who cares about just having
respect for others in the community should be willing to
come together and push back against those types of events.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Zach, Thanks for writing what you wrote. And I appreciate
you joining me to have the conversation this morning. I'm
sure it's one we'll revisit again down the road.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Be well, Thanks so much, Presdon take care.
And here we go into the third and final hour
at least for today of the Morning Show with Preston,
Scott eas OAZIAHM. Preston. It is July thirty first, friends,
and we thank you as always for joining us, whether
you are listening on terrestrial radio or iHeartRadio ruminators, we
appreciate it and we are thrilled to have back with us.
(00:26):
One of our faves, Zack Smith, works with the Heritage
Foundation and he's written a piece entitled the Southern Baptist Conventions.
Theological commitments are worthless if they can't be in the
public sphere. And Zach, welcome to the show again. How
are you.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm doing well, Thanks for having me on this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
When I saw this as a former vocational pastor and
knowing the Southeast as the Bible belt that it is,
I was fascinated by this piece. Before we go back
into some of the digging that you did going one
hundred years or so back, let's go to what prompted this,
(01:05):
why the decision to write this piece.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, so I am a Southern Baptist, attend to Southern
Baptist Church and over in Pensacola, and I was able
to attend. I was blessed enough to attend the Southern
Baptist Convention in Dallas, Texas this year, and I was
able to see some of the debates that took place
on the floor, able to hear some of the disputes
that have been taking place, and you know, with my
work at the Heritage Foundation as well, I'm able to
see why it's happening both in Tallahassee and in Washington,
(01:32):
DC here and how Southern Baptists have engaged with some
of the very important issues that have been coming up
over the past several years. And so I thought now
was a good time to talk about what Southern Baptist
police are and how Southern Baptists have engaged with the
political world in particular.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
If I were to be overly broad, and of course
I am notorious for painting with a very big paint brush, Zach,
it would seem to me that the SBC has found
itself in some rough waters in the last couple of decades.
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I think it is a fair statement. Now, Look, I
don't want to be a doom and gloom too much,
and I think there is good news and maybe some
areas for improvement. Coming out of the convention in Dallas.
The good news, and I talk about this in my piece,
is that Southern Baptists seem by and large to be
on the same page about their core theological convictions. Obviously
(02:31):
sharing the gospel across the globe, helping to plant churches,
affirming God's good design of two genders, pushing back against
things like pornography, sports betting. Southern Baptists are overwhelmingly on
the same page about confronting those issues, saying they're bad.
Where things get a little more tricky, and I think
where you're seeing some disagreement is about how to translate
(02:55):
those theological convictions into the public sphere of what is
the best tactics, what are the best entities designed to
do that? That is where we've seen a lot of
disagreement over the past several years.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Let's for the we got a couple of minutes before
we take a quick break here. Let's where does the
Scopes monkey trial fit into this arc of research that
you did im penning this piece.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, so I looked back. You know, the Scopes monkey
trial took place one hundred years ago last week, and
obviously that was the trial that was purported to put
God against evolution. It was by William Jennings. Bryan and
Clarence Darrow were the attorneys, and I teed that up
as the intro to my pleat piece because shortly after
that trial started, Southern Baptists met in nineteen twenty five,
(03:45):
and just like this past year in Dallas, Texas, in
nineteen twenty five, Southern Baptists were confronted with one finalizing
and formalizing what their core theological convictions were going to
be as an entity, and then also how to translate
those theological convictions into the public square. And so you know,
many of the issues that were being confronted one hundred
(04:06):
years ago, Southern Baptists are still having to confront in
a new way today.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Well, it's interesting because we we we were on this topic.
I do a devotional to start the show every morning,
and one of the things we talked about is that
though technology changes and we think we are more enlightened today,
in reality, nothing much has changed since the Fall since
the garden. Sin is sin and its and and Jesus
(04:34):
called us to engage the culture without compromising our faith.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
That is absolutely right, and I think you know the
form that some of the issues we're confronted today is
a little bit different. I doubt the Southern Baptist in
nineteen twenty five could have foreseen the rise of technology,
things like iPhones I've had had, the Internet, and the
unfortunately the omnipresent scourge of pornography that's so prevalent in
(05:01):
society today. But you're absolutely right. Fundamentally, many of the
issues are the same.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Whether you are a Southern Baptist or not. This is
a very interesting and I think important topic because there
are so many that are and if you've listened to
this program at all, you know that my constant challenge
to you is to not make church attendance like you're
(05:31):
paying your fire insurance premium. Don't treat it like you're
checking a box. It's much greater than that, Zach. Is
this discussion maybe debate inside the SBC about how to
go about being relevant in culture? Is it about, you know,
(05:52):
whether you're going to be a street preacher or whether
you're going to be a lifestyle evangelist, or is it
far more nuanced than that.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Well, I think there is some of that debate happening.
And look, I'll echo what you said just a minute ago,
prestim the Southern Baptist Convention. We are the largest Protestant
denomination in the United States today. Historically, Southern Baptists have
been active in politics and have influenced the culture in
an outsized way. And so I think what happens in
(06:19):
the SBC, You're absolutely right, does affect certainly everyone who
cares about many of these same issues, regardless of whether
or not you're Southern Baptist yourself or not. But yes,
part of the debate we're seeing in particular stems around
how to engage with some of the political battles we're
seeing today. Obviously, I think we can all agree prayer,
having conversations with family, friends, and neighbors, those are vitally
(06:43):
important things to do. But one of the entities of
the SBC itself is called the Ethics and Religious Liberty
Commission the e ORLC, and that's been a very controversial
entity within the SBC because by and large it has
taken positions over the past several years do not align
with where a majority of Southern Baptists are on certain
(07:04):
political issues, or they haven't agreed with how Southern Baptists
think that we should translate certain of those theological commitments
into the public square. The leadership has been somewhat controversial.
Is formally headed by doctor Russell Moore, who has since
left the Southern Baptist Convention and has taken, from my view,
some theologically problematic positions in his new role. But so
(07:29):
these are the types of debates that we are having,
and I think you'll continue to see that, particularly unfortunately
some controversies surrounding the ERLC over the coming year in
the lead up to the next Southern Baptist Convention in Orlando, Florida.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Zach, is it look I I have long wrestled with
these issues, not just in in vocational ministry, and you
might well could guess that I was pretty direct in
the pulpit about stuff like this. I don't necessarily think
that we ought to be worried what a majority of
(08:05):
Southern Baptists, or a majority of Christians, or a majority
of a Church of God, or anybody thinks. What does
God's words say about this? Is the problem with the
Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission a matter of quote interpretation
of scripture? Or is it just kind of the watering
(08:28):
down of what God's word says well, I think.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
It may be with both. It may be a matter
of interpretation in some ways. And so one of the
flashpoints in recent years has been over immigration. What does
the Bible say about immigration? How should we deal with
many of the issues we're facing the day. And unfortunately,
just in recent weeks, the eROC has that come out
and publicly backed a bill that would essentially grant amnesty
(08:55):
to many individuals. Now, I think you can have disagreements
about whether that's good or bad. I personally think that
is a bad thing. I do not think we should
support amnesty. But to come out and say that in
some ways the Bible would compel certain positions, particularly on
these very controversial issues surround the immigration and other entities,
I think that is what's frustrated many Southern Baptists, because
(09:17):
I think you can make a case in the opposite
direction that in fact, we need to have secure borders,
we need to enforce our laws, and I don't think
there's anything unbiblical about taking that position. And so I
think that tension is what many in the Southern Baptist
Convention have found particularly troubling and particularly problematic.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Fact, with Zach Smith talking about a piece about the
Southern Baptist Church and the theological commitments and their relative expression,
if you will, in the public square. We talked earlier
this week in a sort of the start of the
week devotional about you know, hugging close to Jesus, because
if he's the light of the world and we're living
in a dark world, you can't really go wrong if
(10:02):
you hug right there to his hip, because he's going
to illuminate the path for us. And the Old Testament
had something to say about that, But Zach, it gets
muddy sometimes when politics and personal opinions start to take
maybe precedent over what God says simply in his word.
And I want to circle back to the ERLC, the
(10:24):
Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. There have been some concerns
there and a bit of a lightning rod is developing.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Right, Yeah, that's right. And look, I think we talked
about the immigration context specifically. One of the major controversies
around the ELC is they have partnered with groups that
have taken money from George Soros and other very left
leaning individuals who unfortunately are not followers of Christ and
who unfortunately have pushed policies that are in direct contravention
(10:51):
to what the Bible requires. And so I think many
Southern Baptists, once they understand that, asked, why has the
ERLC partnered with these other organizations? Now, certainly, in some areas,
you know, there may be opportunities to partner and work
with non believers to provide you know, good services or
support to communities, particularly during times of crisis. But on
(11:14):
many of these important public policy debates where you know
this ELC is trying to invoke Biblical authority in sometimes
questionable ways and then partnering with these other organizations. Again,
I think that's why so many Southern Baptists are asking
questions and are so concerned about the direction the LC
has taken in recent years.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
So did the last convention really settle much? And what's
left on the table for the next one on this issue?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So it's good news and bad news. As I mentioned
at the top of the show or the top of
the segment, the Southern Baptist did pass very good resolution.
To Andrew Walker, he's a professor at one of the seminaries,
Southern Baptist seminaries. He was in charge of the resolutions committee,
and he passed a number of excellent resolutions again on
things like affirming God's good design related to marriage, affirming
(12:07):
things like the two biological sexes, affirming scriptural and errancy.
Many great things happening. The bad news again is that
how to translate this into the public sphere. There is
debate on that. So I think in Orlando we're going
to see potentially conversations about the ELC against over forty percent,
(12:28):
almost forty two percent of Southern Baptist messengers actually voted
to abolish the EERLC at the convention in Dallas, Texas.
That's an astounding statistic, and so we'll have to see
if that conversation continues in Orlando. There's also conversations about
whether Biblity women can be pastors and how to respond
to churches that have ordained women pastors in their poolpits,
(12:52):
And so I think those types of conversations are still
going to have to be had when the next convention
happens in of next year in Orlando.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Are you going?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
A year is a long way away, and certainly, if
God is gracious enough to let me go, I'll plan
to be there.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
When you step away from it. Now you've written the
piece you said, the feedback to this has been generally positive.
Has the issue crystallized for you? The issues? Have they
crystallized for you at all?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Well? I think they have in some ways. I mean, look,
I think many of these issues, as we were talking
about earlier, the Bible is clear how to address them.
You know, it may sometimes be uncomfortable, it may sometimes
not be easy to follow through with the Bible's commands,
but I think that is what we are called to
do it. And look, I think it's important to understand
(13:50):
as well, Preston, keep in mind that there are many
battles we can agree on, things that we agree we
need to confront, you know, across the political spectrum. In
my hometown in Pensacola, Florida, for example, our city owned
local theater has decided to host a drad show mocking
Christ two days before Christmas last year, the Sancor Theater
(14:13):
in Pensacola, Florida. And so I think all Southern Baptists,
all Christians, and frankly, anyone who cares about just having
respect for others in the community should be willing to
come together and push back against those types of events.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Zach, Thanks for writing what you wrote. And I appreciate
you joining me to have the conversation this morning. I'm
sure it's one we'll revisit again down the road.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Be well, Thanks so much, Presdon take care.
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