August 18, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of Demystifying Money, Misty Lynch sits down with therapist and certified money coach Dasha Chernakovska to discuss how financial advisors can build stronger, more trusting relationships—especially with women and couples. Learn actionable strategies to enhance communication and foster loyalty in your financial practice.
Website: emotiondrivenfinance.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/emotion-driven-finance
Where to find Misty
Websites:
- Why many women feel underserved by traditional financial advisors and what leads them to leave.
- The power of relational intelligence and practical ways to better connect with clients.
- How to recognize and validate clients’ emotional undercurrents like shame and anxiety.
- Methods to involve both partners in financial planning and empower women in the decision-making process.
- Tips for advisors on addressing disproportionate reactions, values-based spending, and what language subconsciously alienates female clients.
Website: emotiondrivenfinance.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/emotion-driven-finance
Where to find Misty
Websites:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Demus Defying Money podcast, where each week
you will hear unforgettable conversations with expert guests about success, money, business,
and small steps you can take to elevate your life
and wealth. Now here's your host.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Misty Lynch.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Hi, everyone, thank you so much for joining us for
this episode of Demas Defying Money. I'm joined today by
Dasha Chernakovska. She's a therapist, a certified money coach, and
a psychology of financial planning specialist who helps financial advisors
develop relational intelligence needed to build lasting, trusting client relationships,
particularly with women and couples. So by under by, you know,
(00:42):
talking about those emotional undercurrents that kind of go unspoken,
like fear, shame, relational dynamics. She teaches advisors how to
better retain female clients, foster loyalty throughout market volatility, and
inspire follow through and referrals. Now, I know I am
a female financial advisor, but I know that most of
the advisors out there in this country are male, and
(01:04):
I do think that there are a lot of women
that feel underserved by their current financial advisor. A lot
of women when they if they are divorced, widow, tend
to leave their current financial advisor, and I think there's
a reason for that. So I think it's important what
DASH is doing to help improve the whole, you know,
financial advisory space, because it is really important and it
(01:24):
is well overdue that women become an important part of
this conversation. So, Dasha, thank you so much for joining
me today.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here, Misty.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
This episode of Demystifying Money with Misty Lynch is proudly
sponsored by Soundview Financial Advisors. Visit www dot Soundview financial
Advisors dot com to ar.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
A little bit about your background and kind of what
led you to specialize in the psychology of financial planning.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yes, absolutely, and like many sol preneurs and small business owners,
I built this business on personal pain and my personal
healing journey. And so I've been a therapist for a
long time, and therapist a therapists are notoriously terrible at
talking about money, and so I really struggled in romantic
(02:16):
relationships with friends and when I started my private practice
in therapy, I also had a hard time talking about
money and all these things that sort of all the
natural consequences that come out of it. And so I
decided to heal my relationship to money. It was ten
years ago, and at that time, this field of money
(02:38):
my mindset work wasn't really as developed as it is now.
So I realized I wanted to be a financial therapist
for couples and individuals so that they could help them
heal their relationship to money. And then as I started
to see more high networth single women clients in individual therapy,
(03:01):
I realized how scared they were to talk to the
male financial advisors. They felt schooled that even though they
had enough money to do the things that they valued,
such as taking care of the home, their kids, travel,
they cancel the appointments with the financial advisors last minute
because of all these fears of being schooled and being shamed,
(03:23):
and whether the financial advisors meant to do that on
art They assumed they didn't, But it's the impact that mattered.
So I realized the more I talked to financial advisors,
the more I realized how difficult it is sometimes for
male advisors to connect with female Clientsah, And so I
just decided to do what as you described, relational intelligence,
(03:45):
teach male clients to talk to women in the more
it tuned in a more emotional way.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
I think it's I think it's great that you noticed that.
I do feel like that is something that I hear sometimes,
you know, from women who start to work with me,
or meant, some couples, some people who start to work
with me because they feel like they're being scolded, or
they cancel the appointment they don't look forward to it,
which I feel like is a shift from how I
want my clients to feel when it's time for us
(04:13):
to meet and talk, like this is a whole, like
this time is for them. I want to hear their concerns.
They can tell me all the things that they might
not be able to share with their best friend or
somebody on the stream, and all their money, and so
I want them to feel like like it's helpful, like
it's a valuable time, not it's time for me to say, Okay,
let's look at your spending and tell you you know
how bad you're doing. But I have noticed that a
(04:34):
lot of people feel that way, and a lot of
advisors might feel like that is their job. And if
you're not in there being like oh, then the people
aren't going to change. Things aren't going to work out
and then it's going to be doom and gloom. And
so it is kind of the way that we've been
like classically trained in financial services is to find the
pain and like dig in there. And also when I
(04:59):
see like and I've been to a lot of industry
conferences and I've seen people giving this great advice about
working with women, and basically it comes down to, like, hey,
you want to include the woman, make sure you look
at her occasionally, occasionally ask her a question. And I
find it it makes me sick because it's so dismissive
(05:19):
about the real value that talking to both partners can add.
It's almost like that's how you got to do it.
Then they'll give her a smile. What are you seeing
as far as you know, when you talk to people
that you're helping in this space, like why why is
it that there's so much trouble connecting and how do
you how do you kind of help people get over
(05:41):
that so they could really be effective.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I'm glad you shared this piece of advice that I
think is a little misguided, meaning occasionally take a look
at the woman, make sure that you're including her. And
that's actually good advice, right, And that's not enough and
it's not enough, and I think it's a good foundation.
And at the same time, it's also involving the woman
(06:07):
in a conversation and maybe even asking the couple before
you start, how do the two of you make decisions
as a couple, right, Or I'm also interested in your perspective,
or I'm wondering what it will be like when you
leave my office and the what will the conversation be
like between the two of you, So all of those
things could be helpful to involve the woman in a discussion.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
And now, I mean, I think that a lot of
the advisors that I know they've learned from other financial
advisors who are just like the you know, but maybe
they're older, and maybe the woman wasn't in the room
when their mentors were working with the investments like that
just maybe flat out wasn't the case in the seventies.
So I don't fall you know, these guys for really
(06:54):
maybe not having the best idea about how to you know,
how to get through to people, how to talk to people.
But that really comes down to communications. So you talk
about the importance of like relational intelligence and things like
that in your work, what does that mean in the
context of financial advising, or if someone else is listening
(07:16):
to the podcast, that's maybe in another field where they
feel like they need to communicate better without looking like
but they also want to feel like they're an authority
person or someone that should be trusted and listened to.
So what is the importance of that relational intelligence and
what does that mean to you?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Relational intelligence to me means the capacity to be attuned
to your client's reactions and to what's happening in the room,
whether it's your zoom room or your actual office. And
what that means is paying attention to the body language
and noticing things. And just when they talk about learning
(07:55):
the importance of body language, I'm not saying if she's
touching her it means she's dealing this, right, That's not
what it means. It's noticing that and asking questions. I
see you knowing, I'm wondering if that means agreement or
are you thinking about us it's just or I see
you you seem a little disconnected. I'm wondering if I'm
(08:18):
using too my jargon. It could be any of those things.
And your rate. It's not just about financial advisories. This
relational intelligence work applies to any male any professions basically,
but we're talking about men now, any male service providers
who would like to either get repeat business from women
(08:38):
or a referrals right. And as we know, women's striving communities,
and they go for advice within the female networks as
opposed to doing a yell preview right or any other
kind of Internet search. It's all about connections. And if
you can make a woman feel seen and understood and
(08:59):
that you care about out her concerns, she's going to
raise to her friends about you. No.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
I think that body language, that piece is so important,
and it's really it can be occasionally easy to miss.
I was in a meeting with clients where the woman
I was talking to, her husband was talking and she
was coughing a lot. It was I stopped to see
what was wrong, and he said, oh, when she gets anxious,
this is what happened. So just talking about money in
(09:25):
general raised her anxiety level. So it's like, what do
you do at that point? Do you barrel through?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Do you stop?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Do you get some coffee? Do you get some tea
water like something like to just kind of make sure
that you know I wanted to make sure she was okay,
but I could see how that could have been missed
as like allergies.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Ever.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Absolutely absolutely, I'll kind of respond differently. And like you said,
some people fidget, some people just do normally. But you
can tell occasionally if it might be time to say, like, hey,
is this are we like on the same page before
getting through your agenda or your checkmaster all those things.
It can be so important and sometimes this work. And
(10:05):
I mean there's a lot of other professions too, healthcare,
other things where you're talking about things that can make
people very uncomfortable, very nervous, and so those are such
good tips to make sure that you're paying attention to
that behavior. What are some other emotional like undercurrents that
you see in client advisor relationships and how can advisors
start to recognize them?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
That's a real good question, and it's I think I
think paying attention to shame and anxiety is really important,
and you a really mentioned that, and I would love
to expand on it a little bit because it's noticing
that it is really important. And if I may simplify
our brain, if you think of the brain as the rational,
(10:49):
logical brain and the emotional brain, when we are having
strong emotional reactions in our emotional brain, when we feel
in shame or anxiety or worry. Really you know, emotional brain.
And what male advisors often do because they were, just
like you said, they were trained to solve problems and
men are socialized to solve problems. It comes from a
(11:11):
good place. But what they often do they start doubling
down on the logical part. So they're basically talking from
the rational brain to their client's emotional brain and there
is a major disconnect. And if your listeners take anything
away from this conversation, I would love them for them
to remember that they should connect emotional brain to emotional
(11:33):
brain first, and then when she feels validated and seen,
then you can say, would it be okay if I
offer the solution? Would it be okay? Would it be
helpful if I offered a different perspective? And so to
do that, to go from the emotional brain to the
rational brain, you want to calm the anxiety down a
(11:54):
little bit, and it's relatively simple. It's through validation and
even saying it sounds like your body might be telling
us something as your coughing right, or I'm wondering if
this is bringing up some emotions, and it sounds stressful,
it sounds hard. I think what I'm hearing is a
(12:15):
B and C, you know, and so it's just validating,
using those phrases to validate for the woman to be seen.
And then you can say, would this be a good
time for us to talk about the actual numbers and
see what are you ready for that?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yeah? I think that's you know, it's definitely something that
I've heard people say, you know, I wasn't they didn't
listen to me, or they didn't ask me questions. And
I don't think that that's necessarily intentional, but you're right.
I think sometimes it might be a matter of taking
a temperature check. And this could be with men and women,
and sometimes you might be talking to somebody one of
the clients, you know, maybe the male thinking rational logic, logic,
(12:51):
and she's paying attention to that. He's not interested in that.
And I feel like there's always that dynamic too that
sometimes I feel like a lot of men just assume
without really finding out more. The same way when I've
been in situations with my husband where people will kind
of talk straight to him when I might be you know,
the one who's also working together on this realista anything,
(13:12):
you know, And it's kind of interesting because you'll be like, Okay, yeah,
over here, you know, like she's buying the car, look
at her, you know, and so what is what are
some ways that like, you know, not just even acknowledging
and getting that, but how to like develop those like
real situations, because sometimes there can be some major life transitions,
there can be some real trauma, grief pain that maybe
(13:36):
financial advisors haven't felt like they've been really equipped to
deal with as well as they have been with the numbers.
I know, I got a life coaching certification to ask
better questions to my clients. I feel like I can
understand why they're doing certain things, even though we all
know you're supposed to spend less than you make. So
with the advisors that might be struggling with that relationship
(14:00):
softer side of the business, what are some advice What
are some pieces of advice you have for people, especially
if they're talking to somebody who's going through a life
transition like a divorce or work changes or death in
the family.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
No, it's a really good question, and it comes back
to validation, validating the emotions they tell me a little
bit more what's going on with you? Right or I
can imagine this is a hard transition for you. Would
you mind sharing a little bit more about how you're
coping and so bringing out some of those emotions. And
(14:33):
it's not therapy. You're not supposed to do therapy. You're
not supposed to make them feel better. But this is
about helping your clients feeling to feel seen and understood,
and then you can again take them out of that
emotional brain and talk about everything that you're trained so
well to do. And grief is important, and even just
(14:56):
you're not supposed to make them feel better again, and
just saying a super I'm sorry for your loss is
not enough. But just asking you a little more about
how they're coping, if they if they need the plumber,
you know, if a woman is for the first time
living on corown, if they need they need support, and
you're not supposed to fix all of those problems, but
(15:19):
just being a helpful, kind person and a partner in
this process is helpful.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah, No, those are good points. I do think that
there is that maybe that pressure to feel like you
have to fix everything that you talk about, which is
not true. And I have talked to some clients and
I've asked them if they are talking to a therapist,
are there any times where you feel like, as somebody
who's who is a therapist, that people who maybe it
is out of their debt should and what's a good
(15:46):
way to maybe suggest that if they're talking to somebody
and those maybe some of the issues are some of
the things that are coming up are much deeper than
maybe they're equipped to handle. How are some what are
some ways that people could could talk about that topic.
I know it's coming less taboo than it has been
in the past to really help their clients, maybe if
that is where some of their budgets should be directed
(16:06):
into mental health or therapy or something to help them
if they feel like they are struggling with certain things
and maybe they're just blaming money or coming back to
money because it feels like the problem, but there might
be more they need to work on there.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
The word I always use is disproportionate, meaning that if
you experience someone's reaction is disproportionate to what's happening, always
think there's something else going on, right, And what that
looks like is if you're talking about someone having enough
(16:42):
money to get their roof fixed. Right. And for example,
I have a client who was recently widowed and her
husband took good care of herrors throughout the life and
for the rest of horror life. However, alone she has left,
and so she needed to get her roof fixed and
she could any of money, and the financial advisors were
trying to reassure her that she did, but she was panicking.
(17:06):
She was in a complete state of fear and despair,
and so it was clearly disproportionate reaction to what was happening.
And so that's an example of when it would be
appropriate to say it sounds like this is bringing up
a lot of anxiety or maybe some scarcity issues of
fearist right, I'm wondering if it would be helpful to
(17:28):
talk to a therapist or a financial therapist about that.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yeah, I think it's important, and I think it's a
place where we might be exposed to, you know, be
I feel like I have you know, it's a unique
relationship that I have with people. But sometimes I have
noticed that I feel like some some more work there.
And occasionally I'll just say, like, how much of your
you know, how much of the budget are we using
(17:51):
for yourself, whether it's physical health or mental health. And
a lot of times it's very very light when it
comes to what people look at with their fine answers
as far as everything else that's going on. And so
I do think it's important as advisors that we kind
of can recognize certain things that might be maybe they're important,
maybe they're not something that's you know, financially, you know,
(18:13):
part of the retirement plan or anything that we'd be
able to build on or anything like that, but this
is maybe where the money should go. So I think
it's super important. And I think that's a great point
about recognizing the disproportionate reactions because a casion late there
will be something you'll be like whoa whoat talking about? Yeah,
like a roof or something like that, and it's much
(18:33):
more and there's so much more going.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
On, right, and may just point something out. Have you
used your rational brain to solve a problem? Right? You
wanted to go for allocating a portion of the budget
to mental health, right, which is a solution. And maybe
they're not ready for therapy, right, and maybe they don't
(18:56):
think they have a problem. So it's so important to
talk about emotional emotional.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I don't want to say I think you need help.
I do feel like it is like there's acceptable ways
to use my and not And I think sometimes this
is a this is something that could be sometimes gendered.
And I spoke with somebody on their podcast recently and
she was saying about like girl math and how women's
(19:24):
spending is looked at as more frivolous, where men, if
they buy tech or tools or vacations or big toys,
it's looked at as like just like a justified purchase.
And so I do feel like that is something where
when we look at the entire picture and the spending,
you know, health, all those things kind of come up,
(19:45):
which you know, it can be new for financial advisors
to talk about that instead of just looking at it
and being like too expensive, good investment. But I like,
I like health as that part. But I guess you're
right it is a bit rational to go to like
let's let's put some effort and energy or thought here,
(20:05):
and money always does come into play with certain things.
But I'm curious from her perspective, like, do you feel
like some of them, the advisors that you've worked with,
have looked at some spending differently through a lens of
you know, maybe based on who's doing it and what's
you know, where that shame and judgment kind of comes
(20:27):
down from when women maybe spend differently than the men
in the family.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I wonder if it comes from not thinking about values first.
Because if I have a client who likes to travel
and she's a single woman and she only has one child,
the child is taken care of financially for the rest
of their life, and so she travel is what she
(20:54):
lives for, and she feels scolded by her financial advisor
and male financial advice are for taking a few luxury
trips a year, and I wonder if they just didn't
talk about values first.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
And so I think it's it comes from a good place,
meaning trying to protect women. Maybe some of with this patriarchy, right,
that's trying to protect you know, kind of you're okay,
little lady, I will take care of you, right, And
that's very patronizing. And that's what a lot of women
struggle with in financial advisory relationships. They feel condescended to patronized, dismissed, ignored,
(21:34):
And I think that's what needs to change.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Yeah, what are something opportunities you see advisors have when
it comes to working with couples that maybe they're not
taking advantage of or looking at when you know there's.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
In terms of engaging both parties, it's I think it's
really important to make sure that both parties make decisions,
and because you don't if they have an unequal power
dynamic at home, I would encourage advisors to explore that,
and meaning just by asking how they make decisions at
(22:10):
home and maybe trying to create a different dynamic in
the room so that they can empower the woman, and
even sometimes maybe even asking what's they financial one financial
dis or what's one financial decision that you're both proud
of or as a couple, or or if male advisors
see individual female clients, just even asking that empowering question too.
(22:34):
This is not just about all the shame. By the way,
shame is really important to be paid attention to because
it shows up as non disclosures or partial disclosures, and
it's going to make any job really difficult, right, any
advisor's job really difficult. So it's important to address that.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
I like that empowering question because I do think that
that's not something that most people fact, but when you
do talk about things that you've done that we're a
good decision that you were proud of, it doesn't necessarily
mean like you got the biggest coupon on something. It
can you know, there's so many things, but also sometimes
that is you know, there are ways that you can
(23:15):
talk about money where it doesn't feel bad, where it
feels good and it feels, you know, like something that
you have been able to handle. Because I do hear
from people I'm terrible with money. I don't know what
I'm doing with money, but I bet if we tried,
we could find a good decision or two that we
can start to celebrate, right.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
And this reminds me of another technique that I think
would be helpful. And when somebody says I'm terrible with
money or I'm terrible at mouth, even saying many of
my female clients think that, but when we actually look
at their money decisions, it's not true. And I think
many people or many clients is a good validation technique
(23:53):
for something positive or negative in terms of if somebody
feels shamed that they should have started process orly or
they're in too much saying many people experience this during
the s period of life was just validating and normalizing.
It's a really helpful technique again, emotional brain to emotional
(24:16):
brain connecting, validating so that they can feel seen and
they're ready to engage the logical brain.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, and a lot of times when people are actually
in the room with us or they're going to see
a financial advisor talking, they are so far ahead of
people who don't even care exactly, don't even think about it,
don't pay any attention to it. So it's funny because
I'm like, actually, like there there's usually so much evidence
in front of me as far as like work that's
(24:43):
been done, money that's been saved, even you know, sometimes
even if there's a lot of that, usually it's there's
a purpose or something behind it, where there's a lot
of people that aren't even thinking at all about this stuff.
So I do think that there is a lot of
people who just don't simply don't give themselves enough credit.
It's exactly important and also not something to then be like,
(25:05):
you're right, you're bad with money. Let me do everything,
because I don't know if that relationship really works anymore.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
You know, women don't look for experts, they don't they
no longer look for a dynamic that represents a competent
expert and an incompetent client. They need partnerships, and so
when the male advisor can create a collaboration, and that
also means changing his language, and that's real important. It's
(25:35):
not saying did they just explain this clearly? But it's
it's not saying did you understand? But it's actually saying
was they able to articulate this clearly? It's not saying
do you have any questions? But maybe it's shifting it
to out of everything that we talked about, what resonated
(25:56):
with you the most? What is it that we haven't
addressed right? As opposed to I'm expert, you know did
you understand? Did you get? Why are you smart enough
to understand what I just told you? Or even owning
I used to my jargon, and so thank you for
your questions because it helps me change, It helps me
with the context, and so I should use less jargon.
(26:17):
It's owning the potential misunderstandings as opposed to putting it
on the woman you're not smart enough in a way
without meaning to do it.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
No, I love that. That's such a great point in
a way to reframe things because I I know, like
my father was an engineer. If he could get a
yes or no answer, that was all he wanted sometimes,
which is very frustrating occasionally when you'd want to talk
about things, but it would be like for his brain
it was like no, it's yes you were able to
(26:47):
get it, or no, you're not able to understand what
I said. And so I feel like putting it on
us as somebody who's working on this relationship, who is
you know who you know? It's our job to make
sure that this is everything is on the table, that
we're understanding things, being like did I articulate as well
what resonated with you? Because that doesn't lead to a
(27:07):
yes or no answer, that leads to a conversation, right.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
And it's also not about her or not understanding and
not being smart enough. It's I want to own if
I didn't articulate it well enough, it's my issue. It's
I want to take ownership of that. And that's what
makes women feel like they're in a partnership as opposed
to his the expert and looking down on her.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Right, because it's like if I didn't explain as well,
then I need to try it.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Again exactly, it's exactly that, right, and then she doesn't
need to feel shame, because most, not most, that's not accurate.
A lot of women go to financial advisor is not
feeling competent enough, and so they already have a sense
of shame about it. And so if they if they
experience and more shame or most coding because she didn't
(27:56):
understand some simple concepts. It also, I hope male advisors
are not going to say, let me simplify this for you,
because this is a very implicit, you know, almost like
an explicit but implicit way of saying, I know you're
not smart enough to understand this. And unfortunately it's so subtle.
(28:16):
Sometimes the shifts are so subtle, and what men say
is so subtle that they don't even mean it. But
the impact is still there, right, and the impact is
no referrals, no loyalty. And maybe the woman walks out
the door, and I do presentations for financial advisors teaching
them these relational intelligence skills, and some men have said, oh,
(28:38):
now I understand why she walked out the door, and
I could have done something about it, and they didn't
have the skills or now this will help me in
my marriage, which is also a big plus that's important.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I think there's a lot of times and I've seen this,
and I've seen this in the forums that I've been
in and stuff where some advisor will say, I had
this great conversation, we covered it up, and then I
got ghosted and they never called me back. They didn't
like And I think that it can't just be getting
through all the points that we want scouting as smart
as possible if that relationship, you know, if something was
(29:13):
missed there, and you're right, Sometimes it can be subtle
saying can I simplify this for you or let me
dumb it down?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Is not exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
However, I started to even because I know that this
some of the concepts and some of the discussions, some
of the things people are seeing on the news are
so like some of them are complicated, some aren't. But
like I'll talk to my kids who are eleven and
twelve and they're like sixth grades and like be like,
does that make sense? And they might be like no,
I'll be like, read this. They're like reading some like
(29:42):
young investing books and stuff, and I'm like, what makes
sense you They're like Oh, I thought it was really
cool that not all dead is bad. I thought it
was this. And it's kind of like not always necessarily
trying to impress other advisors or sound smart, but it's like,
what are some of these things that like maybe seem
easy to us after years of studying it, so that
really aren't talk at a young age, or that could
(30:05):
be kind of cool for somebody to catch on and
really get excited about their money their finances seeming investing
because a lot of times we're working with smart people
who have degrees and they're working in other fields or
they're making care of a lot of different things in
their lives. They're very you know, they're capable of learning
this stuff and getting involved in it. It's just trying
(30:25):
to make it interesting or trying to make it like
at least you don't have to do it yourself, but
I need you to know what's going on here exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
And most women are not looking for just financial advice
and expertise. They're looking for empowerment and confidence and being
in that financial partnership, yeah, is what gives them confidence
and empowerment.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
It's fun when it gets like exciting. I love when
people come up to me and say like I have
this idea, or like, what do you think of this? Doctor?
I saw this like they it's it's so different than
you know, trying to be like Nope, don't you touch that,
let me handle that. You can't do it. It's like,
oh my god, let's talk about this. What do you
like about it? What's so interesting and so? And some
(31:08):
people might be assuming that women have a very low
risk tolerance. They might be wrong. So I feel like
those those are definitely certain things that we need to
maybe be a little bit more open mind about with
our with our clients. I'm curious for you now. You
mentioned doing workshops and teaching, you know, other advisors like
things they can look at. And one thing that's definitely
(31:29):
come up with a lot of the people I've talked
to recently has been market volatility and stress, financial stress,
job market stress, all sorts of things like that. How
how do you think that advisors can better support their
clients emotionally with things like like, you know, the unknown
and the uncertainty that can feel like, well, let's just
get back to the portfolio that we could talk about
(31:51):
that's right here exactly, and.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
It's not just markets volatility, but it's also recently it's
also value based investments. And I'm sure a lot of
portfolio advisors, a lot of financial advisors, we're getting calls
about certain companies that women don't want to own based
on their liberal views, and so just saying, but it
(32:17):
has made you a lot of money, let's look at
your portfolio is missing the mark. And so it's a
really great question mistakes. It's about again, if I could
remind people to just remember emotional brain to emotional brain first,
and so it's validating. Of course, it's hard. Of course
this is stressful, and especially maybe given what you've told
(32:38):
me in the past about your parents bankruptcy, right or
especially given how you grew up, and writing down those
stories during conversations or intakes that you can bring up
later is really important. It creates more trust and more
lusting relationship. And so it's talking about that acknowledging their fears,
(33:01):
acknowledging that this is uncertain instead of saying we got you.
You don't need to worry about any of it.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Yeah, no, that's so true. And you're right about the
values based investing. And I think there's a lot of
people that feel like, yes, you know, maybe they want
they're wanting their money to you know, grow, but they
also wanted to support things that they feel good about
they want to have impacted. So I think that that's
such an important thing to not dismiss and not skew
over and to really dig into, like what are some
(33:29):
of these companies, you know, what are these funds hold
what are these underlying things? Because people do understand that
they have, you know, companies that they interact with every
single day, whether it's going to a store or buying
something or picking up their phone, and so so important
to kind of listen to that and really incorporate it.
I think in the plan, however, you can do so
(33:52):
without just kind of shying away from it. What do
you have going on now lately? For you know, for
when you're working with clients, somebody's listening and they're thinking,
you know, yeah, this makes sense. This is something that
I feel I could do better. You know how what
are some of the things that you offer clients. Is
it one on one type of coaching or is this
something that people could maybe their whole.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Forum could benefit from they could do one on one
And my personal preference would be to have a group discussion,
to have a presentation for the whole forum, so that
they could see what skills they could learn, what they
could do differently, and what they may have been doing
wrong or not necessarily wrong, but that's not sort of
(34:35):
in their female clients. And so some of them, some
of my presentations are an hour alone. It could be
a lunch and louren for the whole forum, so that
they can connect over this and talk about what they
could do differently with female clients, how they could approach
couples differently, or even learn some skills to mitigate conflict
(34:56):
or they escalate conflict in the room with couples. I
also think it's important for financial advisors to learn about
their own money story, their own relationship to money, so
that when it comes up, they know that it's their
stuff and they can own it as opposed to imposing
their values on the client. And it's it's not like
(35:18):
financial advisors go to school and then their money stuff disappears, right.
It shows up. It's just it shows up in an
invisible way and it gets in the way. And it's
really important to make sure that you're aware of your
money stuff and you can manage it more appropriately.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Those are such important points. I think that is we
all have our own you know, money story, no matter
what we do for work or whether we're you know,
I still you know, I sep and I've you know,
helped you know, hundreds of people. But if like my
husband or my kids, sad, I want to like buy
them a little treat, I do, and I'm like, oh,
(35:58):
versus come from? And it's exactly like, well, my my mom,
like you know, even we had, like you know, whenever
money was even tight, it would just be like, all right,
well we're just gonna get this little thing, and it's
just like, oh my god. We always kind of go
back to certain things. So it is important to kind
of notice that what maybe triggers us, what makes us
feel like immediately like oh you know, no.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
That's not that's not that's not right right exactly, and
then glad money on.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
It's such an important thing to notice.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
I'm glad you brought this up because then you're you're
entitled to buy your kids a little treat.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
I know what I'm doing, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
And exactly exactly. But if that means that when a
client is telling you about something opposite to that and
you start judging them. That's the problem, right, So it's
really important if you grow up with a lot of
frugality and someone else has the money to travel and
that's a big value for them, and you start judging
(36:56):
them for it and start restricting them, that's how it
shows up. That's what's so important to know what's yours?
Were you? And and with that other person begins.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Oh, you're right because some people, and I've noticed this
with travel, like some people will go as cheap as
possible to get there and have a good experience. Some
people the trip starts the minute they get in the
car to the airport, and I, like, as somebody who's
never like flown, you know for a scot like I
had to like get the no, their trip starts here
(37:27):
and the whole part of it is part of that
trip where that's like me, I used to fly all
the time for work. I could care less about like
I just want to get there. So it's funny because
you kind of look at it and you're like, okay, yeah, no,
that's my thought that that might not all right the
way that this is viewed. So it's so important to
kind of realize, like that's not the wrong way to
do it, that's just the way they do it.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
So and I'm like, well, this example, all right, I'm
listening like maybe maybe that's a better way to travel.
I don't know, But how can people find you, Yasha
if they want to learn more or they think that.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
This is definitely I feel like for all everybody, you know,
all financial advisors, it is so important to put some
investment into your own training. And if you feel like
there's certain you know, times where you're just not getting through,
you feel like something's off, and you you want to
you know, maybe you're like, oh, I need to change
(38:21):
my client dynam maybe I need to work with this
type of person. Maybe it's not that, Maybe it's some
work that you could do on your own communication style.
So how can people find you if they're looking to
learn more?
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Sure my website is Emotion Drivenfinance dot com and I'll
put it in the show notes. Yes, I also thank you,
and I also am active. My business page is active
on LinkedIn and it I assume that you know, yeah,
everything as well as and so I post a lot
(38:55):
of advice, a lot of articles, a lot of education
on these issues that we just discussed in a lot
more detail. And I also have a little cheat hit
about with some certain script and if anybody would like
to email me and it can add my email as well,
and I'm happy to share. And it just has some
(39:17):
specific script for example, at the end of the session,
you know, how did that land on you? As opposed
to did you get it? You know, did you understand?
So there are small shifts that will make a huge
difference with female clients.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Thank you so much for offering that. I'll make sure
that all of that is in the show notes and
that anybody listening, you know, follow. I feel like there's
no shortage of great information that's put out there, so
follow on LinkedIn. You know, sometimes a certain phrase or
one tip could really change the way you've maybe been
saying things, and so I really think that that's such
(39:49):
an important thing to kind of build into your practice.
I love it. Thank you so much for coming on
the show and sharing your tips. And if you're looking
to maybe work with a female financial planner, how do
to miss Lynch dot com. I would love to talk
with you about your personal finances. Also, you can catch
up with other episodes of the podcast and find a
copy of my book over at Missdulynch dot com. Thank
(40:11):
you so much for joining and I hope you join
us next week. Thank you for joining us on another
insightful episode of DEMONSTI Buying Money. If you enjoyed this episode,
please subscribe, rate, and leave a review. Stay tuned for
more engaging conversations on our next episode, and remember knowledge
is the key to financial empowerment.
Welcome to the Demus Defying Money podcast, where each week
you will hear unforgettable conversations with expert guests about success, money, business,
and small steps you can take to elevate your life
and wealth. Now here's your host.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Misty Lynch.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Hi, everyone, thank you so much for joining us for
this episode of Demas Defying Money. I'm joined today by
Dasha Chernakovska. She's a therapist, a certified money coach, and
a psychology of financial planning specialist who helps financial advisors
develop relational intelligence needed to build lasting, trusting client relationships,
particularly with women and couples. So by under by, you know,
(00:42):
talking about those emotional undercurrents that kind of go unspoken,
like fear, shame, relational dynamics. She teaches advisors how to
better retain female clients, foster loyalty throughout market volatility, and
inspire follow through and referrals. Now, I know I am
a female financial advisor, but I know that most of
the advisors out there in this country are male, and
(01:04):
I do think that there are a lot of women
that feel underserved by their current financial advisor. A lot
of women when they if they are divorced, widow, tend
to leave their current financial advisor, and I think there's
a reason for that. So I think it's important what
DASH is doing to help improve the whole, you know,
financial advisory space, because it is really important and it
(01:24):
is well overdue that women become an important part of
this conversation. So, Dasha, thank you so much for joining
me today.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here, Misty.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
This episode of Demystifying Money with Misty Lynch is proudly
sponsored by Soundview Financial Advisors. Visit www dot Soundview financial
Advisors dot com to ar.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
A little bit about your background and kind of what
led you to specialize in the psychology of financial planning.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yes, absolutely, and like many sol preneurs and small business owners,
I built this business on personal pain and my personal
healing journey. And so I've been a therapist for a
long time, and therapist a therapists are notoriously terrible at
talking about money, and so I really struggled in romantic
(02:16):
relationships with friends and when I started my private practice
in therapy, I also had a hard time talking about
money and all these things that sort of all the
natural consequences that come out of it. And so I
decided to heal my relationship to money. It was ten
years ago, and at that time, this field of money
(02:38):
my mindset work wasn't really as developed as it is now.
So I realized I wanted to be a financial therapist
for couples and individuals so that they could help them
heal their relationship to money. And then as I started
to see more high networth single women clients in individual therapy,
(03:01):
I realized how scared they were to talk to the
male financial advisors. They felt schooled that even though they
had enough money to do the things that they valued,
such as taking care of the home, their kids, travel,
they cancel the appointments with the financial advisors last minute
because of all these fears of being schooled and being shamed,
(03:23):
and whether the financial advisors meant to do that on
art They assumed they didn't, But it's the impact that mattered.
So I realized the more I talked to financial advisors,
the more I realized how difficult it is sometimes for
male advisors to connect with female Clientsah, And so I
just decided to do what as you described, relational intelligence,
(03:45):
teach male clients to talk to women in the more
it tuned in a more emotional way.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
I think it's I think it's great that you noticed that.
I do feel like that is something that I hear sometimes,
you know, from women who start to work with me,
or meant, some couples, some people who start to work
with me because they feel like they're being scolded, or
they cancel the appointment they don't look forward to it,
which I feel like is a shift from how I
want my clients to feel when it's time for us
(04:13):
to meet and talk, like this is a whole, like
this time is for them. I want to hear their concerns.
They can tell me all the things that they might
not be able to share with their best friend or
somebody on the stream, and all their money, and so
I want them to feel like like it's helpful, like
it's a valuable time, not it's time for me to say, Okay,
let's look at your spending and tell you you know
how bad you're doing. But I have noticed that a
(04:34):
lot of people feel that way, and a lot of
advisors might feel like that is their job. And if
you're not in there being like oh, then the people
aren't going to change. Things aren't going to work out
and then it's going to be doom and gloom. And
so it is kind of the way that we've been
like classically trained in financial services is to find the
pain and like dig in there. And also when I
(04:59):
see like and I've been to a lot of industry
conferences and I've seen people giving this great advice about
working with women, and basically it comes down to, like, hey,
you want to include the woman, make sure you look
at her occasionally, occasionally ask her a question. And I
find it it makes me sick because it's so dismissive
(05:19):
about the real value that talking to both partners can add.
It's almost like that's how you got to do it.
Then they'll give her a smile. What are you seeing
as far as you know, when you talk to people
that you're helping in this space, like why why is
it that there's so much trouble connecting and how do
you how do you kind of help people get over
(05:41):
that so they could really be effective.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I'm glad you shared this piece of advice that I
think is a little misguided, meaning occasionally take a look
at the woman, make sure that you're including her. And
that's actually good advice, right, And that's not enough and
it's not enough, and I think it's a good foundation.
And at the same time, it's also involving the woman
(06:07):
in a conversation and maybe even asking the couple before
you start, how do the two of you make decisions
as a couple, right, Or I'm also interested in your perspective,
or I'm wondering what it will be like when you
leave my office and the what will the conversation be
like between the two of you, So all of those
things could be helpful to involve the woman in a discussion.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
And now, I mean, I think that a lot of
the advisors that I know they've learned from other financial
advisors who are just like the you know, but maybe
they're older, and maybe the woman wasn't in the room
when their mentors were working with the investments like that
just maybe flat out wasn't the case in the seventies.
So I don't fall you know, these guys for really
(06:54):
maybe not having the best idea about how to you know,
how to get through to people, how to talk to people.
But that really comes down to communications. So you talk
about the importance of like relational intelligence and things like
that in your work, what does that mean in the
context of financial advising, or if someone else is listening
(07:16):
to the podcast, that's maybe in another field where they
feel like they need to communicate better without looking like
but they also want to feel like they're an authority
person or someone that should be trusted and listened to.
So what is the importance of that relational intelligence and
what does that mean to you?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Relational intelligence to me means the capacity to be attuned
to your client's reactions and to what's happening in the room,
whether it's your zoom room or your actual office. And
what that means is paying attention to the body language
and noticing things. And just when they talk about learning
(07:55):
the importance of body language, I'm not saying if she's
touching her it means she's dealing this, right, That's not
what it means. It's noticing that and asking questions. I
see you knowing, I'm wondering if that means agreement or
are you thinking about us it's just or I see
you you seem a little disconnected. I'm wondering if I'm
(08:18):
using too my jargon. It could be any of those things.
And your rate. It's not just about financial advisories. This
relational intelligence work applies to any male any professions basically,
but we're talking about men now, any male service providers
who would like to either get repeat business from women
(08:38):
or a referrals right. And as we know, women's striving communities,
and they go for advice within the female networks as
opposed to doing a yell preview right or any other
kind of Internet search. It's all about connections. And if
you can make a woman feel seen and understood and
(08:59):
that you care about out her concerns, she's going to
raise to her friends about you. No.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
I think that body language, that piece is so important,
and it's really it can be occasionally easy to miss.
I was in a meeting with clients where the woman
I was talking to, her husband was talking and she
was coughing a lot. It was I stopped to see
what was wrong, and he said, oh, when she gets anxious,
this is what happened. So just talking about money in
(09:25):
general raised her anxiety level. So it's like, what do
you do at that point? Do you barrel through?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Do you stop?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Do you get some coffee? Do you get some tea
water like something like to just kind of make sure
that you know I wanted to make sure she was okay,
but I could see how that could have been missed
as like allergies.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Ever.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Absolutely absolutely, I'll kind of respond differently. And like you said,
some people fidget, some people just do normally. But you
can tell occasionally if it might be time to say, like, hey,
is this are we like on the same page before
getting through your agenda or your checkmaster all those things.
It can be so important and sometimes this work. And
(10:05):
I mean there's a lot of other professions too, healthcare,
other things where you're talking about things that can make
people very uncomfortable, very nervous, and so those are such
good tips to make sure that you're paying attention to
that behavior. What are some other emotional like undercurrents that
you see in client advisor relationships and how can advisors
start to recognize them?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
That's a real good question, and it's I think I
think paying attention to shame and anxiety is really important,
and you a really mentioned that, and I would love
to expand on it a little bit because it's noticing
that it is really important. And if I may simplify
our brain, if you think of the brain as the rational,
(10:49):
logical brain and the emotional brain, when we are having
strong emotional reactions in our emotional brain, when we feel
in shame or anxiety or worry. Really you know, emotional brain.
And what male advisors often do because they were, just
like you said, they were trained to solve problems and
men are socialized to solve problems. It comes from a
(11:11):
good place. But what they often do they start doubling
down on the logical part. So they're basically talking from
the rational brain to their client's emotional brain and there
is a major disconnect. And if your listeners take anything
away from this conversation, I would love them for them
to remember that they should connect emotional brain to emotional
(11:33):
brain first, and then when she feels validated and seen,
then you can say, would it be okay if I
offer the solution? Would it be okay? Would it be
helpful if I offered a different perspective? And so to
do that, to go from the emotional brain to the
rational brain, you want to calm the anxiety down a
(11:54):
little bit, and it's relatively simple. It's through validation and
even saying it sounds like your body might be telling
us something as your coughing right, or I'm wondering if
this is bringing up some emotions, and it sounds stressful,
it sounds hard. I think what I'm hearing is a
(12:15):
B and C, you know, and so it's just validating,
using those phrases to validate for the woman to be seen.
And then you can say, would this be a good
time for us to talk about the actual numbers and
see what are you ready for that?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yeah? I think that's you know, it's definitely something that
I've heard people say, you know, I wasn't they didn't
listen to me, or they didn't ask me questions. And
I don't think that that's necessarily intentional, but you're right.
I think sometimes it might be a matter of taking
a temperature check. And this could be with men and women,
and sometimes you might be talking to somebody one of
the clients, you know, maybe the male thinking rational logic, logic,
(12:51):
and she's paying attention to that. He's not interested in that.
And I feel like there's always that dynamic too that
sometimes I feel like a lot of men just assume
without really finding out more. The same way when I've
been in situations with my husband where people will kind
of talk straight to him when I might be you know,
the one who's also working together on this realista anything,
(13:12):
you know, And it's kind of interesting because you'll be like, Okay, yeah,
over here, you know, like she's buying the car, look
at her, you know, and so what is what are
some ways that like, you know, not just even acknowledging
and getting that, but how to like develop those like
real situations, because sometimes there can be some major life transitions,
there can be some real trauma, grief pain that maybe
(13:36):
financial advisors haven't felt like they've been really equipped to
deal with as well as they have been with the numbers.
I know, I got a life coaching certification to ask
better questions to my clients. I feel like I can
understand why they're doing certain things, even though we all
know you're supposed to spend less than you make. So
with the advisors that might be struggling with that relationship
(14:00):
softer side of the business, what are some advice What
are some pieces of advice you have for people, especially
if they're talking to somebody who's going through a life
transition like a divorce or work changes or death in
the family.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
No, it's a really good question, and it comes back
to validation, validating the emotions they tell me a little
bit more what's going on with you? Right or I
can imagine this is a hard transition for you. Would
you mind sharing a little bit more about how you're
coping and so bringing out some of those emotions. And
(14:33):
it's not therapy. You're not supposed to do therapy. You're
not supposed to make them feel better. But this is
about helping your clients feeling to feel seen and understood,
and then you can again take them out of that
emotional brain and talk about everything that you're trained so
well to do. And grief is important, and even just
(14:56):
you're not supposed to make them feel better again, and
just saying a super I'm sorry for your loss is
not enough. But just asking you a little more about
how they're coping, if they if they need the plumber,
you know, if a woman is for the first time
living on corown, if they need they need support, and
you're not supposed to fix all of those problems, but
(15:19):
just being a helpful, kind person and a partner in
this process is helpful.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah, No, those are good points. I do think that
there is that maybe that pressure to feel like you
have to fix everything that you talk about, which is
not true. And I have talked to some clients and
I've asked them if they are talking to a therapist,
are there any times where you feel like, as somebody
who's who is a therapist, that people who maybe it
is out of their debt should and what's a good
(15:46):
way to maybe suggest that if they're talking to somebody
and those maybe some of the issues are some of
the things that are coming up are much deeper than
maybe they're equipped to handle. How are some what are
some ways that people could could talk about that topic.
I know it's coming less taboo than it has been
in the past to really help their clients, maybe if
that is where some of their budgets should be directed
(16:06):
into mental health or therapy or something to help them
if they feel like they are struggling with certain things
and maybe they're just blaming money or coming back to
money because it feels like the problem, but there might
be more they need to work on there.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
The word I always use is disproportionate, meaning that if
you experience someone's reaction is disproportionate to what's happening, always
think there's something else going on, right, And what that
looks like is if you're talking about someone having enough
(16:42):
money to get their roof fixed. Right. And for example,
I have a client who was recently widowed and her
husband took good care of herrors throughout the life and
for the rest of horror life. However, alone she has left,
and so she needed to get her roof fixed and
she could any of money, and the financial advisors were
trying to reassure her that she did, but she was panicking.
(17:06):
She was in a complete state of fear and despair,
and so it was clearly disproportionate reaction to what was happening.
And so that's an example of when it would be
appropriate to say it sounds like this is bringing up
a lot of anxiety or maybe some scarcity issues of
fearist right, I'm wondering if it would be helpful to
(17:28):
talk to a therapist or a financial therapist about that.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yeah, I think it's important, and I think it's a
place where we might be exposed to, you know, be
I feel like I have you know, it's a unique
relationship that I have with people. But sometimes I have
noticed that I feel like some some more work there.
And occasionally I'll just say, like, how much of your
you know, how much of the budget are we using
(17:51):
for yourself, whether it's physical health or mental health. And
a lot of times it's very very light when it
comes to what people look at with their fine answers
as far as everything else that's going on. And so
I do think it's important as advisors that we kind
of can recognize certain things that might be maybe they're important,
maybe they're not something that's you know, financially, you know,
(18:13):
part of the retirement plan or anything that we'd be
able to build on or anything like that, but this
is maybe where the money should go. So I think
it's super important. And I think that's a great point
about recognizing the disproportionate reactions because a casion late there
will be something you'll be like whoa whoat talking about? Yeah,
like a roof or something like that, and it's much
(18:33):
more and there's so much more going.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
On, right, and may just point something out. Have you
used your rational brain to solve a problem? Right? You
wanted to go for allocating a portion of the budget
to mental health, right, which is a solution. And maybe
they're not ready for therapy, right, and maybe they don't
(18:56):
think they have a problem. So it's so important to
talk about emotional emotional.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I don't want to say I think you need help.
I do feel like it is like there's acceptable ways
to use my and not And I think sometimes this
is a this is something that could be sometimes gendered.
And I spoke with somebody on their podcast recently and
she was saying about like girl math and how women's
(19:24):
spending is looked at as more frivolous, where men, if
they buy tech or tools or vacations or big toys,
it's looked at as like just like a justified purchase.
And so I do feel like that is something where
when we look at the entire picture and the spending,
you know, health, all those things kind of come up,
(19:45):
which you know, it can be new for financial advisors
to talk about that instead of just looking at it
and being like too expensive, good investment. But I like,
I like health as that part. But I guess you're
right it is a bit rational to go to like
let's let's put some effort and energy or thought here,
(20:05):
and money always does come into play with certain things.
But I'm curious from her perspective, like, do you feel
like some of them, the advisors that you've worked with,
have looked at some spending differently through a lens of
you know, maybe based on who's doing it and what's
you know, where that shame and judgment kind of comes
(20:27):
down from when women maybe spend differently than the men
in the family.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I wonder if it comes from not thinking about values first.
Because if I have a client who likes to travel
and she's a single woman and she only has one child,
the child is taken care of financially for the rest
of their life, and so she travel is what she
(20:54):
lives for, and she feels scolded by her financial advisor
and male financial advice are for taking a few luxury
trips a year, and I wonder if they just didn't
talk about values first.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
And so I think it's it comes from a good place,
meaning trying to protect women. Maybe some of with this patriarchy, right,
that's trying to protect you know, kind of you're okay,
little lady, I will take care of you, right, And
that's very patronizing. And that's what a lot of women
struggle with in financial advisory relationships. They feel condescended to patronized, dismissed, ignored,
(21:34):
And I think that's what needs to change.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Yeah, what are something opportunities you see advisors have when
it comes to working with couples that maybe they're not
taking advantage of or looking at when you know there's.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
In terms of engaging both parties, it's I think it's
really important to make sure that both parties make decisions,
and because you don't if they have an unequal power
dynamic at home, I would encourage advisors to explore that,
and meaning just by asking how they make decisions at
(22:10):
home and maybe trying to create a different dynamic in
the room so that they can empower the woman, and
even sometimes maybe even asking what's they financial one financial
dis or what's one financial decision that you're both proud
of or as a couple, or or if male advisors
see individual female clients, just even asking that empowering question too.
(22:34):
This is not just about all the shame. By the way,
shame is really important to be paid attention to because
it shows up as non disclosures or partial disclosures, and
it's going to make any job really difficult, right, any
advisor's job really difficult. So it's important to address that.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
I like that empowering question because I do think that
that's not something that most people fact, but when you
do talk about things that you've done that we're a
good decision that you were proud of, it doesn't necessarily
mean like you got the biggest coupon on something. It
can you know, there's so many things, but also sometimes
that is you know, there are ways that you can
(23:15):
talk about money where it doesn't feel bad, where it
feels good and it feels, you know, like something that
you have been able to handle. Because I do hear
from people I'm terrible with money. I don't know what
I'm doing with money, but I bet if we tried,
we could find a good decision or two that we
can start to celebrate, right.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
And this reminds me of another technique that I think
would be helpful. And when somebody says I'm terrible with
money or I'm terrible at mouth, even saying many of
my female clients think that, but when we actually look
at their money decisions, it's not true. And I think
many people or many clients is a good validation technique
(23:53):
for something positive or negative in terms of if somebody
feels shamed that they should have started process orly or
they're in too much saying many people experience this during
the s period of life was just validating and normalizing.
It's a really helpful technique again, emotional brain to emotional
(24:16):
brain connecting, validating so that they can feel seen and
they're ready to engage the logical brain.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, and a lot of times when people are actually
in the room with us or they're going to see
a financial advisor talking, they are so far ahead of
people who don't even care exactly, don't even think about it,
don't pay any attention to it. So it's funny because
I'm like, actually, like there there's usually so much evidence
in front of me as far as like work that's
(24:43):
been done, money that's been saved, even you know, sometimes
even if there's a lot of that, usually it's there's
a purpose or something behind it, where there's a lot
of people that aren't even thinking at all about this stuff.
So I do think that there is a lot of
people who just don't simply don't give themselves enough credit.
It's exactly important and also not something to then be like,
(25:05):
you're right, you're bad with money. Let me do everything,
because I don't know if that relationship really works anymore.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
You know, women don't look for experts, they don't they
no longer look for a dynamic that represents a competent
expert and an incompetent client. They need partnerships, and so
when the male advisor can create a collaboration, and that
also means changing his language, and that's real important. It's
(25:35):
not saying did they just explain this clearly? But it's
it's not saying did you understand? But it's actually saying
was they able to articulate this clearly? It's not saying
do you have any questions? But maybe it's shifting it
to out of everything that we talked about, what resonated
(25:56):
with you the most? What is it that we haven't
addressed right? As opposed to I'm expert, you know did
you understand? Did you get? Why are you smart enough
to understand what I just told you? Or even owning
I used to my jargon, and so thank you for
your questions because it helps me change, It helps me
with the context, and so I should use less jargon.
(26:17):
It's owning the potential misunderstandings as opposed to putting it
on the woman you're not smart enough in a way
without meaning to do it.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
No, I love that. That's such a great point in
a way to reframe things because I I know, like
my father was an engineer. If he could get a
yes or no answer, that was all he wanted sometimes,
which is very frustrating occasionally when you'd want to talk
about things, but it would be like for his brain
it was like no, it's yes you were able to
(26:47):
get it, or no, you're not able to understand what
I said. And so I feel like putting it on
us as somebody who's working on this relationship, who is
you know who you know? It's our job to make
sure that this is everything is on the table, that
we're understanding things, being like did I articulate as well
what resonated with you? Because that doesn't lead to a
(27:07):
yes or no answer, that leads to a conversation, right.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
And it's also not about her or not understanding and
not being smart enough. It's I want to own if
I didn't articulate it well enough, it's my issue. It's
I want to take ownership of that. And that's what
makes women feel like they're in a partnership as opposed
to his the expert and looking down on her.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Right, because it's like if I didn't explain as well,
then I need to try it.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Again exactly, it's exactly that, right, and then she doesn't
need to feel shame, because most, not most, that's not accurate.
A lot of women go to financial advisor is not
feeling competent enough, and so they already have a sense
of shame about it. And so if they if they
experience and more shame or most coding because she didn't
(27:56):
understand some simple concepts. It also, I hope male advisors
are not going to say, let me simplify this for you,
because this is a very implicit, you know, almost like
an explicit but implicit way of saying, I know you're
not smart enough to understand this. And unfortunately it's so subtle.
(28:16):
Sometimes the shifts are so subtle, and what men say
is so subtle that they don't even mean it. But
the impact is still there, right, and the impact is
no referrals, no loyalty. And maybe the woman walks out
the door, and I do presentations for financial advisors teaching
them these relational intelligence skills, and some men have said, oh,
(28:38):
now I understand why she walked out the door, and
I could have done something about it, and they didn't
have the skills or now this will help me in
my marriage, which is also a big plus that's important.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I think there's a lot of times and I've seen this,
and I've seen this in the forums that I've been
in and stuff where some advisor will say, I had
this great conversation, we covered it up, and then I
got ghosted and they never called me back. They didn't
like And I think that it can't just be getting
through all the points that we want scouting as smart
as possible if that relationship, you know, if something was
(29:13):
missed there, and you're right, Sometimes it can be subtle
saying can I simplify this for you or let me
dumb it down?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Is not exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
However, I started to even because I know that this
some of the concepts and some of the discussions, some
of the things people are seeing on the news are
so like some of them are complicated, some aren't. But
like I'll talk to my kids who are eleven and
twelve and they're like sixth grades and like be like,
does that make sense? And they might be like no,
I'll be like, read this. They're like reading some like
(29:42):
young investing books and stuff, and I'm like, what makes
sense you They're like Oh, I thought it was really
cool that not all dead is bad. I thought it
was this. And it's kind of like not always necessarily
trying to impress other advisors or sound smart, but it's like,
what are some of these things that like maybe seem
easy to us after years of studying it, so that
really aren't talk at a young age, or that could
(30:05):
be kind of cool for somebody to catch on and
really get excited about their money their finances seeming investing
because a lot of times we're working with smart people
who have degrees and they're working in other fields or
they're making care of a lot of different things in
their lives. They're very you know, they're capable of learning
this stuff and getting involved in it. It's just trying
(30:25):
to make it interesting or trying to make it like
at least you don't have to do it yourself, but
I need you to know what's going on here exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
And most women are not looking for just financial advice
and expertise. They're looking for empowerment and confidence and being
in that financial partnership, yeah, is what gives them confidence
and empowerment.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
It's fun when it gets like exciting. I love when
people come up to me and say like I have
this idea, or like, what do you think of this? Doctor?
I saw this like they it's it's so different than
you know, trying to be like Nope, don't you touch that,
let me handle that. You can't do it. It's like,
oh my god, let's talk about this. What do you
like about it? What's so interesting and so? And some
(31:08):
people might be assuming that women have a very low
risk tolerance. They might be wrong. So I feel like
those those are definitely certain things that we need to
maybe be a little bit more open mind about with
our with our clients. I'm curious for you now. You
mentioned doing workshops and teaching, you know, other advisors like
things they can look at. And one thing that's definitely
(31:29):
come up with a lot of the people I've talked
to recently has been market volatility and stress, financial stress,
job market stress, all sorts of things like that. How
how do you think that advisors can better support their
clients emotionally with things like like, you know, the unknown
and the uncertainty that can feel like, well, let's just
get back to the portfolio that we could talk about
(31:51):
that's right here exactly, and.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
It's not just markets volatility, but it's also recently it's
also value based investments. And I'm sure a lot of
portfolio advisors, a lot of financial advisors, we're getting calls
about certain companies that women don't want to own based
on their liberal views, and so just saying, but it
(32:17):
has made you a lot of money, let's look at
your portfolio is missing the mark. And so it's a
really great question mistakes. It's about again, if I could
remind people to just remember emotional brain to emotional brain first,
and so it's validating. Of course, it's hard. Of course
this is stressful, and especially maybe given what you've told
(32:38):
me in the past about your parents bankruptcy, right or
especially given how you grew up, and writing down those
stories during conversations or intakes that you can bring up
later is really important. It creates more trust and more
lusting relationship. And so it's talking about that acknowledging their fears,
(33:01):
acknowledging that this is uncertain instead of saying we got you.
You don't need to worry about any of it.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Yeah, no, that's so true. And you're right about the
values based investing. And I think there's a lot of
people that feel like, yes, you know, maybe they want
they're wanting their money to you know, grow, but they
also wanted to support things that they feel good about
they want to have impacted. So I think that that's
such an important thing to not dismiss and not skew
over and to really dig into, like what are some
(33:29):
of these companies, you know, what are these funds hold
what are these underlying things? Because people do understand that
they have, you know, companies that they interact with every
single day, whether it's going to a store or buying
something or picking up their phone, and so so important
to kind of listen to that and really incorporate it.
I think in the plan, however, you can do so
(33:52):
without just kind of shying away from it. What do
you have going on now lately? For you know, for
when you're working with clients, somebody's listening and they're thinking,
you know, yeah, this makes sense. This is something that
I feel I could do better. You know how what
are some of the things that you offer clients. Is
it one on one type of coaching or is this
something that people could maybe their whole.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Forum could benefit from they could do one on one
And my personal preference would be to have a group discussion,
to have a presentation for the whole forum, so that
they could see what skills they could learn, what they
could do differently, and what they may have been doing
wrong or not necessarily wrong, but that's not sort of
(34:35):
in their female clients. And so some of them, some
of my presentations are an hour alone. It could be
a lunch and louren for the whole forum, so that
they can connect over this and talk about what they
could do differently with female clients, how they could approach
couples differently, or even learn some skills to mitigate conflict
(34:56):
or they escalate conflict in the room with couples. I
also think it's important for financial advisors to learn about
their own money story, their own relationship to money, so
that when it comes up, they know that it's their
stuff and they can own it as opposed to imposing
their values on the client. And it's it's not like
(35:18):
financial advisors go to school and then their money stuff disappears, right.
It shows up. It's just it shows up in an
invisible way and it gets in the way. And it's
really important to make sure that you're aware of your
money stuff and you can manage it more appropriately.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Those are such important points. I think that is we
all have our own you know, money story, no matter
what we do for work or whether we're you know,
I still you know, I sep and I've you know,
helped you know, hundreds of people. But if like my
husband or my kids, sad, I want to like buy
them a little treat, I do, and I'm like, oh,
(35:58):
versus come from? And it's exactly like, well, my my mom,
like you know, even we had, like you know, whenever
money was even tight, it would just be like, all right,
well we're just gonna get this little thing, and it's
just like, oh my god. We always kind of go
back to certain things. So it is important to kind
of notice that what maybe triggers us, what makes us
feel like immediately like oh you know, no.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
That's not that's not that's not right right exactly, and
then glad money on.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
It's such an important thing to notice.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
I'm glad you brought this up because then you're you're
entitled to buy your kids a little treat.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
I know what I'm doing, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
And exactly exactly. But if that means that when a
client is telling you about something opposite to that and
you start judging them. That's the problem, right, So it's
really important if you grow up with a lot of
frugality and someone else has the money to travel and
that's a big value for them, and you start judging
(36:56):
them for it and start restricting them, that's how it
shows up. That's what's so important to know what's yours?
Were you? And and with that other person begins.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Oh, you're right because some people, and I've noticed this
with travel, like some people will go as cheap as
possible to get there and have a good experience. Some
people the trip starts the minute they get in the
car to the airport, and I, like, as somebody who's
never like flown, you know for a scot like I
had to like get the no, their trip starts here
(37:27):
and the whole part of it is part of that
trip where that's like me, I used to fly all
the time for work. I could care less about like
I just want to get there. So it's funny because
you kind of look at it and you're like, okay, yeah, no,
that's my thought that that might not all right the
way that this is viewed. So it's so important to
kind of realize, like that's not the wrong way to
do it, that's just the way they do it.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
So and I'm like, well, this example, all right, I'm
listening like maybe maybe that's a better way to travel.
I don't know, But how can people find you, Yasha
if they want to learn more or they think that.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
This is definitely I feel like for all everybody, you know,
all financial advisors, it is so important to put some
investment into your own training. And if you feel like
there's certain you know, times where you're just not getting through,
you feel like something's off, and you you want to
you know, maybe you're like, oh, I need to change
(38:21):
my client dynam maybe I need to work with this
type of person. Maybe it's not that, Maybe it's some
work that you could do on your own communication style.
So how can people find you if they're looking to
learn more?
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Sure my website is Emotion Drivenfinance dot com and I'll
put it in the show notes. Yes, I also thank you,
and I also am active. My business page is active
on LinkedIn and it I assume that you know, yeah,
everything as well as and so I post a lot
(38:55):
of advice, a lot of articles, a lot of education
on these issues that we just discussed in a lot
more detail. And I also have a little cheat hit
about with some certain script and if anybody would like
to email me and it can add my email as well,
and I'm happy to share. And it just has some
(39:17):
specific script for example, at the end of the session,
you know, how did that land on you? As opposed
to did you get it? You know, did you understand?
So there are small shifts that will make a huge
difference with female clients.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Thank you so much for offering that. I'll make sure
that all of that is in the show notes and
that anybody listening, you know, follow. I feel like there's
no shortage of great information that's put out there, so
follow on LinkedIn. You know, sometimes a certain phrase or
one tip could really change the way you've maybe been
saying things, and so I really think that that's such
(39:49):
an important thing to kind of build into your practice.
I love it. Thank you so much for coming on
the show and sharing your tips. And if you're looking
to maybe work with a female financial planner, how do
to miss Lynch dot com. I would love to talk
with you about your personal finances. Also, you can catch
up with other episodes of the podcast and find a
copy of my book over at Missdulynch dot com. Thank
(40:11):
you so much for joining and I hope you join
us next week. Thank you for joining us on another
insightful episode of DEMONSTI Buying Money. If you enjoyed this episode,
please subscribe, rate, and leave a review. Stay tuned for
more engaging conversations on our next episode, and remember knowledge
is the key to financial empowerment.
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