Love Means Zero

TC and his wife Megan discuss the documentary about Nick Bollettieri, Andre Agassi's coach.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Every time see you and you stepsnot good the dirt Bag Culture Hour.
Thank you so much for listening.I'm TC Fleming. Jordan Richardson recently texted
me a health update. Let's seeif I can read it directly. When

(00:21):
I so much, I'm thinking you'resaying so much as he says, when
I so much take a solo bathroomtrip, it hurts. And then he
laughing emoji, so he's like it'sgoing good. Yeah, he's he's not
here. He uh, you can'tmake it to the bathroom, certainly can't
make it to the studio. Inhis place, We've got Megan Fleming.

(00:41):
Yes, I'm covering the kidney Stonebirth news like Chronica Corny Stone you uh
you lost your gallblodger? I did? That was that was a weird one.
I thought, you know, Ijust need really need to burp,
I think and no, I justnever went away and had six of those
bad boys block my bile duct.That was a five AM. I think

(01:03):
I need to go to the hospital. But you were very polite about it.
You were like, you don't haveto worry about I can just go,
Like I'll drive myself if you don'twant to get up you don't have
to. But I think I'm Ithink I'm a head on out. It
was a Sunday, I didn't haveanything else to do. I can I
can drive. I don't feel anypain at all, So I kind of

(01:26):
feel like it puts me in abetter situation. Yeah. So we watched
the documentary, just you know,trying to put together the best Saturday program
we can. Yeah, and itwould have been nice to talk about one
of these new fresh movies. ButI feel like we've already discussed everything on
the show. You know, we'dalready talked about all the big ones on
the show. We could have gonefor the Meg two. Were you you

(01:48):
weren't with you were with me forseeing Meg one? Right? No,
Oh, that was your dad.I think that would be a tight thing
to see my dad. Yeah,I don't think I didn't really spark my
interest. JJ. My dad addsbig signature line in action movies is whenever
someone in the movie gets hurt,he says, that's gonna leave a mark.
So any movie you can see withhim where he's gonna gonna turn to

(02:09):
him and he gives his catchphrase.He even lets out a little old and
so now our four year old.Oh looked her, She goes, that's
gonna be a mark. It's verymuch Michelle Tanner. Just that's something.
Is Stephanie Tanner? How rude?But got some catchphrases from old Tom Flemming.
Yeah, No, he's a goodguy to watch an action movie with.

(02:29):
Sure, So I hope I sawthe first Meg with him. I
don't really remember. Yeah, Megtwo out this weekend. No, I
think I'm gonna pass Jake Paul NateDiaz fighting in Dallas later today. Don't
don't forget, guys, He's goingin the hole, isn't DeMarcus Ware as
well? DeMarcus Ware as well.And then the big topic that everyone's been

(02:51):
talking about, conference realignment. Iguess that's just in your circle. Mine's
not really talking about any of that. Yeah, I mean, I feel
like the expectations we've set up withthis show, and certainly I don't feel
like I have the ideally suited cohost for a conference realignment talk. But
I'm not thinking about anything else.I just I love college football so much.

(03:13):
It's my favorite thing in the entireworld, as far as like a
collection of hobbies goes, you know, like, yeah, this is here
my family, but not like dunDungeon Dragons, comic books, NFL.
We aren't your top three. No, you're not a Joe's guy, Joe
mad Lean. No, I'm aboutcollege football, and now that it's gotten

(03:35):
to a point where like, likethere's been a lot of realignment, but
there's never been the full on disintegrationof one of the great conferences in this
in this country. And can't saythat I'm happy to see it. Can't
say that I'm happy to see it. Yeah, we we're trying to get
a good show prepared, so wethought we would, uh yeah, try
and create some content by by takingin some art that we could then react

(03:58):
to. And I had had thisat the top of my documentaries to watch
list for quite some time, andI kind of thought it was a little
different. I I sort of soldit to you as like, it's a
story about Andre Agassi, Yeah lifeand in his growing up. Whoever had
pitched it to me made me thinkthat his coach was his dad and having

(04:20):
like a kind of intense parenting situationseemed like something where you could offer some
unique perspective. Yeah, it's lovemeans zero on what showtime? Yeah,
but but then it turned out thatit wasn't his dad, so kind of
just ended up being a real crappick. Yeah, but you know,

(04:40):
you can't know that until you watchit. And as someone who's like not
particularly interested in tennis, like Igot into it a little bit more watching
it that way. Yeah, Idon't like tennis, uh, and I
and I said it was a crappick, but like I thought it was
a great documentary. I liked thedocumentary. Yeah, no, I agree,
Yeah, yeah, I think it'syou know, it's just it's grounded
in very huge them in things whereI don't think that you need to be

(05:01):
a tennis fan, because I'm certainlynot to uh to understand it. I
don't know. I ended up seeingsome pretty strong parallels with my life of
you know, it's it's a bunchof kids torn away from their families at
age fourteen to go and you know, with someone who's going to give them
some special instruction. That's essentially whathappened to me. It's not that I

(05:24):
was good at tennis, it wasthat I was bad at going to school
and just the you know, stayingquiet, and so yeah, I get
special instruction on how to behave butlook at you now here we are talking
about this. Yeah, yeah,yeah, I know. It was an
Excel classmate that told me it wasa good documentary. There we go.
Yeah, so I'm looking Oh yeah, he got it. But yeah,

(05:47):
it's about Nick Bolletary, who appearsto be a bit of a trailblazer in
the field of semi abuse of coaches. Yeah, and without having any real
chops like like like if he hadtried to do that now with the internet,
everyone would look him up and belike, he's never played a game,
like not interested. This guy wasjust like I'm gonna yell at your

(06:09):
kids because you won't and they're gonnabe good. And half of them weren't
good. They were like just acouple, and those couple of them made
you know, somewhat remarkable history towhere people were like, Okay, we'll
send him to this guy. Hesounds good enough. Yeah, and it's
interesting to hear. I think itwas more of the people around him back
then. We're talking about it inpretty frank terms, where like Nick told

(06:31):
us, if we just get enoughkids in here and put enough pressure on
him, one of them will begood, and the second that one that's
actually good wins one of the majortournaments, the money spigott will just turn
on. So we just got torun through as many kids and yell at
them as much as possible, andjust by the sheer math of it,
one of these lottery tickets will hitand like lottery. Yeah. And I

(06:56):
think just in his approach to thewhole thing of like, I didn't really
know anything, so I had tobe aggressive. It's like it is the
loudest voice in the room usually knowsthe least. You know, the person
who's yelling and barking out orders isnot someone like if you really looked at
him on pen and paper, wouldbe fit to have the job. And
I didn't really feel like he wasa great influence. I felt like it

(07:16):
was probably a lot of kids thathad the natural talent that I guess going
through like, I think that theyprobably they had a little bit more of
an empathetic leader, maybe some moreparent involvement, they could have been just
as successful. But he sees,you know, he sees the one Andre
Agassy that he yelled at and youknow, beat him into submission. He's
like, I didn't do anything wrong, created a class act. Yeah.

(07:40):
No, the major kind of thinghanging over the documentary is the fact that
andre Agassi is not in it,refused to be in it because he hates
Nick Poltary and I would too,Yeah, and uh, you know,
and that was so it was sointeresting to see how he talked about that
relationship because you know, Nick avery confident guy. He's you could just

(08:03):
see it a lot of points.He's built this these defenses around himself so
that he never has to ask,is what I'm doing right? Am I
hurting people? Is it worth itthe hurt that I'm inflicting in order to
make them as good at tennis asI hope that they can be? Like,
he just doesn't ask himself these questions. You see them like kind of

(08:24):
ask these kind of questions of himin the documentary and you just watch over
and over. Is he's just likejust a bunch of haters, Man,
I don't listen to it. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I
don't know why I did that.Do I regret it? I don't know.
I couldn't tell you why I didthat. And I think half of
it. What I was thinking ofis like I think you and I talked
about this a lot about just whydo people, Like, why are people

(08:45):
the way they are? What Iwas seeing from this guy who was yelling
so much and like being I don'tcare, I don't care. He obviously
cares. He's never been allowed tocare, Like he was never brought up
that like being vulnerable was good.I think he would have been, like
I said, endeared himself to alot of his students and probably created more
healthy relationships with them and like afather figure that they're probably looking for,

(09:07):
but he probably didn't have those toolsgiven to him. So he then is
put in a situation where now andreAgassi is supposed to think that this is
how a father treats his son,and so therefore kind of like it just
goes down the line of like howthese people have relationships with adults, and
if it starts with one adult who'slike not fully an adult, because you

(09:28):
know, they don't have this thisway in their mind of like being able
to see things through a child's eyes, Like I think that's super beneficial whenever
you have someone like that around children. And he just did not possess any
of those qualities. I think,yeah, yeah, it doesn't get in
too much to his family life inearly childhood or anything like that. But

(09:50):
it's quite notable how often he andthe people around him talk about these students
as his children. And like hethe tennis camps, you would be away
from your family, and then therewas a dormitory on the on the grounds
of the tennis academy, but thekids who are really good lived with him

(10:11):
in his house, which is weird. Also how my high school is set
up, Yeah that if you behavedwell enough, then you lived with the
people running it. You had topour your own milk, yeah, which
is you know, it's a nutsset up for anyone to have ever,
but that to me, like andhe just he seems so quick to talk
about like or to say like,you know, these are like my children,

(10:35):
and it just he seemed to melike a guy who had a big
gaping hole in his life and wastrying to like fill it this way.
Yeah. I think he's married eighttimes. Yeah, like just never finding
whatever happiness and even says he's like, I don't care about being loved.
I care if I help someone,And it's like he's not even allowing himself

(10:56):
to like say that he cares somuch as that he loves these kids it's
just if he helps them, whichI think the background message there is like
you have to love someone in orderto help them, you know, you
have to care about them. Buthe's just not willing to go there throughout
this entire documentary. And he evenlike so much is so bullies the director
of like why are you asking methese questions? Like I don't know what

(11:18):
to tell you? And he prefersto himself as Nick. Nick doesn't.
Yeah, yeah, he's very Healso has like a very Polywalnut's vibe of
like just to you know, herefers, you know, he says he's
Italian. He's going big on theyou know, we don't care York,
Yeah, we don't care. Andhe loves sunglasses with a little one of
those little holders the yeah, justthe thing that Yeah, I guess maybe

(11:43):
the sunglasses are more what he waslike keeping on to look like those Fisherman
glasses. Yeah, my dad hada couple pair of those. Yeah.
I wrote down the quote you weretalking about sometimes a person may not love
you, but if you made animpact on their life, that's success too.
Uh, that's a dangerous thought thathave, like I can see to
some extent, you know, likemaybe sometimes what he's saying could be true,

(12:07):
but if you're saying that to yourselftoo often, you're just trying to
get away with your justified behavior.That's trying to push them away and make
them not love you. That's whatI read out of it is that it's
like at the end of the day, he's he's given his life quote unquote,
given his life to these kids asfar as like spending time with them
day in and day out, andlike they eventually realize that, like it's

(12:28):
a form of like psychological abuse insome in some cases, and when they
want to do away with him,he's like, well, they may not
love me, but I did mypart. I help them, Like that's
me showing the love. And it'sjust it's kind of like he just makes
it their problem that they didn't receiveit that way. Yeah, it's all
methods of escaping accountability. This guyis terrified of accountability. Yeah, Like

(12:50):
you know, he just all theonly things he wants to talk about are
you know, like reasons why hehad like what you're saying in the beginning,
where you know, it's like hesaid something about, well, you
know, I was loud because Ihad to be. Yeah, Like there's
so many times where I was blankbecause I had to be. And like

(13:11):
that's just such a convincing yourself thatyou have to do this. It's such
a necessary ingredient of doing the kindsof behaviors that he did, because it
just doesn't like you wouldn't if ifyou if there was another way to do
it, then it would be areflection on you that you did not choose
that more compassionate way, and thenyou'd have to face some questions about you

(13:33):
know, your actions worked. Ihad to do it, and it worked,
but we don't know if it wouldhave worked another way. So like
that's because that's in any of theseyou know, like Bob Night, Bill
Parcels, like any of the coacheswho are known for playing like psychological games
and like have players walking around thatare like I hate that m effort and

(13:54):
all I would attack him if Icould, because like, uh. In
the Bill Belichick documentary, The Educationor Not The Documentary, it's a book
Education of a Coach by David Halberstram, It's one of the best books I've
ever read, and it details howmuch Bill Belichick hates Bill Parcels because of
the way that Bill Parcels treated himand everyone else around him. And it's

(14:16):
so interesting, and you know,Bill Parcels won two Super Bowls, you
know, so like you look atthat like it these people who quite clearly
are constantly demanding the most out ofthe people around them. Whenever they then
deliver, like doing in service anddoing the thing that we've set out to
do, it creates a certain amountof justification. But I think that that

(14:39):
strain of thinking has certainly receded,if not entirely gone away. And it's
if it hasn't gone away yet,it's easy to imagine a future pretty soon
whatever it will, because you thenhave to wonder if there's someone else who
can do this without those consequences,And isn't that so much more of an
achievement? Like I think, youknow, who knows how any of these

(15:01):
people actually are. But I alwaysthink of Pete Carroll, who I do
hate on a personal level because he'sthe found his greatest success at USC and
I'm a Notre Dame fan. Yeah, you know, like my grandmother went
to a grave desperately hating Pete Carroll, and I would never be inclined guy
somehow, and I was like,Barbe's probably probably pretty pleased right now.

(15:22):
Yeah, yeah, but you knowit seems to be a guy that try
like he's comically positive all the timeand but gets the same results. You
know, like the people don't walkaway being like and I mean whatever.
It seems like Russell Wilson's mad athim. So he's not perfect, but
like, uh, you know,he's not trying to make them. He's

(15:46):
not yelling at them the way thatNick Military's yelling at people. And even
more so than the yelling, theone incident they were detailing where there was
a very young Kathleen Horvath who becamenumber one, like as if she played
the US Open when she was fourteen. She's still the youngest person ever to
have played in the US Open,and seemed to be having an amazing career.

(16:10):
And then there was another girl whocame along, Carling. I don't
remember her last name. I'm notthat big of an eighties tennis fan.
And she came along and started todo just as well, and Horvath had
a bit of a tough time withit, and so he kicked her out
of the camp. And this hadbeen someone who this was definitely a person

(16:32):
who was in the circle where he'stalking about her like, this is my
daughter. And if you're gonna cutsomeone out of your life, like forced
them out, just be like allright, we'll see you later. When
you're calling them a daughter, Likeyou shouldn't do that to someone that you're
if they're actually your daughter. It'sjust for a kid to take that kind
of rejection that's going to live withyou for the rest of your life.
Well, and then they asked himabout it, He's like, I don't

(16:53):
remember that, yeah, And I'mlike, if I would, I would
get not remembering Joe Schmo, who'slike you not that great, but the
person who was living in your housewith you. You don't remember how how
that happened. And I think that'sjust him blocking it out because he like
I think he just blocks out whateverare actual, like mistakes that are tangible

(17:14):
mistakes. I don't remember that,Like he doesn't remember the whole thing with
Andre in some cases. Yeah,Like it's really hard to try to get
the truth out of him because thetruth is admitting failure. Yeah, And
I was. I was just Iwas contrasting the way he talked about Horvath
with the way he talked about Andre, because Andre is the only time in
the documentary he was like, youknow what, I wish I would have

(17:34):
done a couple of things different.So I think that he understands that he
could have just wrote off into thesunset as the man who made Andre Agassi
versus what it is now where Augusyyou know, certainly immediately after the breakup
was saying all sorts of things about, you know, I'm good at tennis,
because I'm good at tennis. Nickdidn't do crap. Yeah, and
that's not what Nick's legacy would beif he had treated Andre better. Yeah,

(17:57):
And so I think he understands thatit's the only time where like the
guilt is so or not guilt,but like regret. Regret is what I
mean, The regret is so overwhelmingthat he's like, I guess I would
have done something differently versus this Kathleensituation where we probably caused a lot more
psychological harm to Kathleen. Not thatit's competition, but like that whatever faced

(18:18):
with this, he's like, Idon't really remember that way. I don't
really care either. Uh, yeah, it's just messed up, it is.
Yeah, we're just saying one ofthem. Sorry I didn't catch it.
One. We got one minute leftin the show. Is that accurate
or should we just break now?Okay, yeah, no worries. The

(18:41):
just the communication between the booth inhere. It's it's imperfect though it did
not work. Yeah, I don'tknow. I appreciate you taking your time
to come on the show. Doyou feel like it's a positive experience?
Absolutely. Hope Jordan doesn't give birthto his little stone and I can come
back. I hope that he getsa stone out as quickly as possible.
All Right, you can come back, but he can. Maybe it's out,

(19:03):
but he's like recovering. Still.You like talking to him too.
It'd be great teams here. Maybewe don't invite you and it'll just be
me and him. Take a break, Bud, You'll, you'll, you'll.
You'll all see what it's like withoutme one day they'll all see.
Yeah. Anyways, thanks for listening, guys. We'll be back next week
at two. It's ninety seven one. The Freak