Hour 2- December 4, Dick Cartmell

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Streaming live on the Ihearts Radio while this is Eye
on the Ball with Steve Rivera on Fox Sports fourteen fifteen.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, welcome back to Wind the Ball around Fox Sports.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
Fortune Cookie. I'm Steve Rivera. You're Jay John.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
I'm curious. You know again, let's sleeve football coach, you
know all of him again, you know, the football coach
from Kansas State. He just retired, fifty eight years old.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
No, do you climbing? Yeah, yeah, he just retired.

Speaker 4 (00:32):
Oh no, I know, I just know he was one
of the first guys to leave you know, North Dakota
State as a head coach.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
Right and then and then that program that.

Speaker 4 (00:42):
Was really and then moving, you know, moving then you know,
and then there was there was one guy that left
to go to Wyoming. One guy, yeah, to stay. But
then they just kept, yea, churning out their their situation.
So he's retiring. He's fifty eight years old.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
He doesn't want to deal with the stuff that's going
on today.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
And and I've talked to all of the guys.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
You know, Rubio is the Ken, the Andy Lopez is
and uh, you know, the guys who have been here
forever are glad they're not coaching because of all the nil,
the transport, portal ball, the bs you have to jump
through to get and be good. Right, I know you
loved coaching. I'm sure you're kind of glad you're out. Yeah,
are you glad you're not part of this?

Speaker 4 (01:18):
It's a hard thing to say because the people that
are leaving are the ones that can afford to leave,
are the ones that aren't or have already had retired.
And you look back and you know what the job
was to begin to begin with, because I got it,
I would have that.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
How would I handle adding the extra layer? Okay?

Speaker 4 (01:38):
But the bottom line is, you know, the bottom line
is is if you are young enough and this is
your livelihood, you don't have a choice, right right, Okay,
you know some of the people that there are certain
basketball there's certain people that made I think may transition
a little bit smoother, certainly. And Mike would have been
the same as you know, he's JC baseball coaches Central

(02:00):
Arizona before it came to you of a yah for
the softball. But you just start. If you're a junior
college coach and you moved your way up, you know
there's no difference.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
You know how to do it.

Speaker 4 (02:09):
Roster reconstruction, right, you know, Eric musselm was was G
League D League coach. You know, so roster reconstruction every year.
You're kind of already h you know, you cardady have
some things in place, right so or if you you know,
but still it would be exhausting beyond belief. You you know,

(02:30):
continue to see offensive coordinators. You'll continue to see top
assistance leave a smaller job, you know, or leave from
a head coaching job to one of those OC jobs
or top assistant basketball just to get Yeah, well, because
you're still top of the food chain. You want top
of the food chain job so that when when the

(02:52):
nil starts, Okay, everybody's okay, what are you going to
You're at the top of the food chain. How much
money you're going to pay? I'll listen to you first
and go downward.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
It's watching what's the name on ESPN the guy from
West Virginia Pat mcabee show, and he had the transfer
from the Texas.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
Tech Program today. Did you see it?

Speaker 5 (03:11):
You know?

Speaker 2 (03:12):
And he taught it was great stuff because they have
more money than god, you know, did this do They're
you know, built on an oil field, the nation's largest
or whatever have money or money. But he's saying that
schools are losing money hand to or fist. They're just
losing it because of the situation. And I'm not sure
he says how it's gonna happen or be feasible to
continue with the with the Olympic sports, the women's sports,

(03:34):
and those types of things, the minor sports, because it's
just every school's every school's losing money and not a
lot of the easy money. It's like twenty million dollars
a year. And how do you sustain it and how
do you keep those teams from being cut? Because you know,
I think it's your situation in cal you were ahead
of a number of those teams, right, you had to

(03:57):
you had to supervise.

Speaker 4 (03:59):
Well, the it is, it's been talked about odd nauseam
about the down tier sports from the standpoint that it
has been our Olympic development system.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
Okay, And when we had.

Speaker 4 (04:13):
Frank Bush on the United States of America, okay, you know,
and so you know, when you had Frank Bush on
Companice talk about with swimming. You know, international kids from
foreign countries are coming here. We're training them to go
win medals at their in their country. So that's something
that is there's a pride in the United States about

(04:35):
how we do in the Olympics right summer especially, and
so that's something that's always going to be talked about,
you know, in terms of when you talk about schools
losing money. I mean, Ohio State they talked about last
year they finished in the red you know, and it's like, Okay,
how do you win a national championship in football? Fill
your basketball arena to to a certain level, but you're

(04:58):
finishing in the red. So you know what the truth
is on these stories about you know, who's who's earning money,
who's not. I mean, the bottom line is it's it's
it's still you know, if your donors aren't going to
poney up, then you it's it's going.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
To be hard to sustain greatness.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
I kind of maagine, did you have to chase the
money along the way since not coaching, did you have
to chase in terms of trying to generate income?

Speaker 4 (05:24):
Well, yeah, that that window time when I first when
I first went in the administration, was to to raise
money for basketball.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
And that's my question. So how do you know firsthand
how difficult that is?

Speaker 4 (05:35):
Well, it's it's you know, I'll name one name and
then I won't name the other name.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (05:40):
But when I first went into that, as Montgomery retired
and we hired Contell Martin, you know, raising money for
contain Martin was easy, okay for me. You know, as
a college basketball coach, you have you had on the
average three four scholarships a year. I looked at raising money.
It's like I got unlimited scholarships. You know, I don't
have to stop at three or four. I just keep

(06:02):
going to people. But we had a product.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (06:06):
You know, the bottom line is is your development office
is only.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
As good as the teams.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
Okay, because you're selling You're selling quote unquote an adolescent.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Experience to a fifty year old man.

Speaker 4 (06:23):
Bring me back to college, okay, give me a reason
to come back to college for a day. See all
my buddies, See all my buddies. We'll go to a
football game. You know, we'll have a grand old time
and then just go back and then go back to
regular life. The thing with football is packaged in one day.
Right when period of time I first got to cal
Tedford's there and winning like crazy. Right, these guys from

(06:44):
LA we get on. We get a group of guys,
get on the PJ, fly up, fly up at at
you know, leave it eight there at nine, party all day,
game in the afternoon, and then be in bed by ten. Yeah,
and so that that happens all over all over the
country with football. And that's how I mean. It's packaged,
but you know it's going to be expensive.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, And it's the same people. I've said this when
Jay was on the show many times when he was
my partner. How many deep pockets do you have to
find because at some point there's no more pocket, there's
no more money in those pockets.

Speaker 4 (07:19):
Well that that's real true, I mean, and again it
depends on where you're at right and uh, it just
depends on what part of the country you're in.

Speaker 3 (07:27):
It depends on your your your donal level and success.
It breeds it, okay.

Speaker 4 (07:34):
And you know you talk about you know, the Texas
Tech example, it's not just Cody Campbell, there's one other
gentleman who's you know, but again they you know, they
had the ability.

Speaker 3 (07:46):
To change it. Yeah, and they're trying to.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
They're trying to and you know, and one of the
things I used to say to the to the to
the cow folks. It's like, you know, I'd ask him
about a game day experience for them. You know, when
you come to a basketball game, I mean, if you
wake up by lunchtime, you're like, okay, I got a
game tonight. Do you have a little bit of anticipation
in your heart or a game that you're going to see,
you know, in a fun game. And you know, if

(08:08):
guys say yes, I'm like, okay, that's a little bit
of the hook because you can pay for your fun
if you've got courtside seats and you're excited about the game,
and so your your anticipation. So if you watch the
game and we win, when you go home, you know,
I was used to call it the warm glow of victory,
and donors go through that, the warm glow of victory.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
It's just okay, And I'm close.

Speaker 4 (08:29):
To the team and I like the team, and I
feel like it's worthwhile. And if you can keep that going,
then people will just use some of their discretionary money.
Sure that experience. Sure, it's just it's just what that's what.
At least it happens over east, I mean east of
the Rockies.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, so let me say this because as you were speaking,
I was trying to come up with this answer. So
most of the people who bitch and complain are these
are not those people, not the deep pockets.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
The deep pockets are they have.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
Other worries to worry about, you know, their life, their
their money making, blah blah blah. And the ones that
don't support the team financially are the ones that are, well,
this team sucks and YadA, YadA, YadA, how did you
deal with that? And it's I guess you're just nodded
your head. You're right because you're saying I'm right. How
do you deal with that? And damn it sucks?

Speaker 4 (09:20):
Well, I mean, the the the everybody people. A lot
of people want to get to the bottom baseline of
an upper tier.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
Bracket, so to speak. So what do you want us
a cow?

Speaker 4 (09:34):
If you if you gave ten thousand dollars versus you,
you got you got to get on some of the
zooms calls, You got a little bit special more special treatment.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
So it just got you in the room. Yeah and
so and so you're like, okay, you.

Speaker 4 (09:52):
Have to still it's like anything else, right, I mean,
are you better than your problems? You know do I
do I want ten care to want to you know,
you know, pitch a snit fit and say you're not
worth that. No, So I'm just gonna take a deep
breath and you're going to get through the get through
the experience. And it's like because it's still you know,
it's still going to help the program, right, but you're
still not you know, you can't always ask to be

(10:14):
on the charter.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to know your time
and time and place.

Speaker 4 (10:18):
You know, we got these people want to be in
the charter, and there's so many there's only so many
suits we're gonna there's only so many seats and so
many games to play, right you know, so.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah that's reserved for twenty thousand, sir, thirty thousand sir.
But you can complain all you want. It's just you know,
when I see the complaints, it's like, how much are
you invested besides you emotionally?

Speaker 3 (10:39):
Well? I you know, again, we were talking about this earlier.
It said that's the thing you.

Speaker 4 (10:46):
Have to you have to evaluate and if I got
your question correctly, okay, you know, Arizona basketball is one
where people you know, it's it's an automatic you know,
you know, we have just had a wonderful football season.

Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah, and yet not that there wasn't not many people,
so he didn't get.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
To fifty thousand people. So I don't really know what
it is that's a trigger. But but the bottom line
is that what I do know is without without winning teams,
you know it is, it is a lot harder and
you're just able to just to build anything because it's
even as development people that reach out or the athletic director.

Speaker 3 (11:27):
You know, if if you know that.

Speaker 4 (11:29):
I'm teasing you because I'm because I'm just you know,
I'm goading you because we have a good team. It's
a great experience and we know that you can do
more and how can you help us?

Speaker 3 (11:37):
You know, those are the type of things that you know.

Speaker 4 (11:40):
So and unfortunately for the last forty years there so
in a basketball had that And that's a kind of.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
Sure cool thing.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Sure because of a man who decided not to go anywhere,
and he could have easily gone somewhere, and he just
continued to be here. Whether whether he lates it or not,
I'm sure he loved.

Speaker 4 (11:58):
You know, No, he did be Coacho liked his privacy too.
Now and he could, he could live in Tucson and
still be celebrity.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, you know, yeah, but not like in Iowa where
he was. He was pestered a lot. Mm hmm.

Speaker 4 (12:11):
Yeah, because people will in the middle of the day
at the University of Idaho, Iowa, they'll drop what they're
doing to go to a basketball lunch and to hear
the coach talk every week during the season. Yeah, okay,
and you know places like Tucson, now that may be
hard to do because people were working, right, you know,
they don't you know, the farms don't shut down in
this in the winter, so.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
Right, you know, that's a good point. That's a good point.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Okay, We're gonna come back with mister cartmell is on
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Speaker 1 (17:22):
Steve Rivera He's got his eye on the ball on
Tucson's sports station, Fox Sports fourteen fifty.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Hey, we'll come back to fly the ball here on
Fox Sports fourteen to country. I'm Steve Rivera in today's
needs j johns Now on the phone. We have Dick Cartmell,
one of the former PEC twelve Peck ten refs, and
we like you.

Speaker 12 (17:43):
How's that?

Speaker 3 (17:43):
How's that?

Speaker 12 (17:44):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (17:44):
How's that good? Okay? Likes me?

Speaker 10 (17:47):
Huh?

Speaker 12 (17:48):
How much has been my wife?

Speaker 3 (17:50):
I mean? Did the Micheale crowd like you?

Speaker 13 (17:53):
Dick?

Speaker 5 (17:54):
Well? Sometimes you know, when they won, they like me,
they like but like everywhere else, yeah, everywhere else. When
they lose, you know, you're not your best friend. But yeah,
overall a really good crowd.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
So the second question the crowd, Okay, what about Coach Olsen?

Speaker 5 (18:11):
Coach Holsten. I got along with Coach Holsen. He was terrific,
you know, but these coaches got to get used to you.
It's kind of funny story. Funny story about Coach Olsen.
You know, he was such an imposing person that the
officials we kind of nicknamed him God. He looks like
God on the sideline, you know, big tall, good looking

(18:33):
guy with this imposing presence. You know, it's like you
didn't want a fool with him, but.

Speaker 12 (18:38):
Him and I ended up becoming pretty good friends over
the over the years.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
Got in a nice blue blue suit.

Speaker 5 (18:45):
Yeah God time. Yeah yeah, yeah, he was a Hollywood star.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
Oh he was.

Speaker 4 (18:50):
All he had to do is just had to raise
his right hand up from the crowd, and the crowd
started getting Okay, coach is mad about something, so we
got to help him out.

Speaker 5 (18:58):
Well, he used to make me mad about Michael. This
is a long time ago. This would be funny. This
is back in coach Holson's days. But they used to
you know, you'd have a play and you'd miss a
call or be controversial whatever, and they showed on the screen, right,
and oh man, they showed on the screen and everybody
would either boo or whatever. And you know, coach Holson

(19:19):
would the coaches would you know, point up to the
boy that that fired me up. I went over there
and I said, knock it off, stop this nonsense, right,
And so it went back to the conference headquarters and
and they didn't used to do it before. And then
all of a sudden they started doing it and everywhere
started doing that, not just McHale. And they said, well
they can show the replay once and that's it. So

(19:39):
we you know, so everybody got to see it once.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Did the did the Three Blind Mice ever come out
for you guys?

Speaker 5 (19:47):
Oh? Yeah, that comes out everywhere, you know. You know,
you know the Big West has good bands everywhere, and
you know, smaller bands, right, smaller gyms, and they like
to play it.

Speaker 12 (19:57):
Yeah, that's just part.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
Of the deal.

Speaker 5 (20:00):
You know. Tell me, did you did.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
You ref mister J John here a time or two?

Speaker 5 (20:06):
I did? Yeah? Uh, he was at Oregon State when
I was in the in the pack eight or ten
or twelve whatever it was on the eighth chief.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
You know, you and I we were in high school
in the eight other we.

Speaker 12 (20:17):
Got either mine, Yeah, that can for sure.

Speaker 5 (20:21):
And yeah, so yeah I did jay and at a
number of different you know, it was an assistant in
a number of different places.

Speaker 11 (20:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:27):
No, it was one of those trying to try to
get a little bit of a little little slice retirement
about as many pack tent school as as possible.

Speaker 5 (20:34):
Yeah, a different bunch of different spots.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
So I got I got a questions for you.

Speaker 4 (20:38):
You know, it's you know, so many times there too
many times when you're talking about sport and it's you know,
a coach, and you look at a resume, and so
you're with your with respect to your you know, with
respect to your officiating resume. I believe I have this correctly.
At thirty four years is Division one official, right? And

(20:59):
and in your experience probably largely on the West Coast
at least for most of those years, twenty four n
C two attorneys, five final fours, three championship, three championship games.
So you know, I know as a coach, how my
one my one opportunity to get to a final four

(21:20):
while at the U of A, and and and and
play for a national championship game, and for a national
championship in a game.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
I know how that feeding was for me, So how
does that? How does the how does how does that work?

Speaker 4 (21:33):
And feel for an official along that journey in an
inn to a tournament and then certainly you know, do
championship game.

Speaker 5 (21:42):
Yeah, well it's it's quite it's quite a thrill, I'll
tell you. You know. I never I knew I was
either going to coach or ref when I got down playing,
and it just evolved into ref and fit better because
I also like the golf, and you know, some of
these coaches can't golf as much I like to go.
But it fit better, so, you know, as you work

(22:03):
your way up.

Speaker 12 (22:03):
I never, man, when I started out refereeing, my.

Speaker 5 (22:06):
Goal was to work in the state high school tournament.
And I remember working in my first triple A tournament,
which is the highest one in state, you know, and going, man,
I finally made it, you know, I finally made it.
Never my wildest dreams that I ever think I would
even be in college or advanced like I had it
in college. But I just worked out. You know, people

(22:26):
see you, they like you, and it's a lot different.
Now you have to go to officiating camps and you
got it. It's really hard to get through. I was
kind of lucky in those days. It's just more word
of mouth and they knew me as a player, and
so that helped me advance. And I didn't finally get there.
You know, I worked starting in ninety two and get
an NCTA tournament and I worked my first final four

(22:48):
in two thousand and two. So you advance. You know,
the first four years I worked one game. You're done,
you know, and you're and you hope you okay, I
get so fifth year, I got two games, so uh,
and then you know, the next year I got to
a regional and so you just kind of keep advancing
through that process as they trust you. Right, there's a
lot of there's a lot of money and pressure and

(23:09):
stuff involved. They want guys if they can trust in
those in those different events. And then I remember getting
that final call, that first call for the Final four,
and uh, they said, hey, you got the championship game.

Speaker 12 (23:21):
My first my first final four, I was WHOA.

Speaker 5 (23:23):
So it was quite the trail and uh.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Who was that? Who was that game? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (23:28):
That was Maryland, Indiana and Bobby Knight got fired. Yeah, right,
I had the championship game in O two, three and
O four my first three years, and then I uh
so three in a row, and then I six oh seven.
I had I had the semifinals, probably because U c

(23:50):
l A was in the final four that those years
and six oh seven, so I was the only West
Coast guy in the final four. And it's hard to
give the West Coast guy at the final because you
might have U c l A in the final. They
tried to keep your way from certain teams and your
conferences and stuff.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
Interesting in the old.

Speaker 5 (24:09):
Day, it's not so much anymore because these guys work
all over the country.

Speaker 3 (24:12):
They work everywhere.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
So your choice was a ref or a coach a coach?

Speaker 3 (24:17):
You said you did?

Speaker 14 (24:19):
You?

Speaker 3 (24:20):
Did you?

Speaker 2 (24:20):
This is a dumb question because pardon the way I
praised it. Did you have like a real job too?

Speaker 3 (24:25):
Not a real job? What did you do?

Speaker 5 (24:28):
No? I worked at for Blowing Computer Services and for
Lockey Martin out at the Half for Nuclear Reservation in
Richland Tri Cities, Richland, Washington Half for Nuclear Reservations where
they built five reactors along the Primie River and they
that's where they built the built their nuclear actors to
make the plutonium to build the bomb to win the war.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
REFI was nothing compared to that.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
What are you talking about?

Speaker 4 (24:53):
That?

Speaker 3 (24:54):
Refew was easy?

Speaker 5 (24:56):
There you go. Yeah, I was an account right, I
was business manager. I manage people. So it's a kind
of the same thing. That's all referenue is managing the players,
managing the coaches, managing the game. So if you're a
good manager of people, you can probably be a pretty
good referee if you have a feel and and then
and then you're join having some feel for the game

(25:18):
and understanding the game and understanding that, but just managing
the game and managing the people.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah, having a feel for the game.

Speaker 4 (25:25):
One of the things that's it's always uh cool about
athletics and people that that do play. You realize that
the speed of the speed of how things change, you know,
in a particular play and it's someone who played, you know,
you can you can kind of anticipate some things and
just kind of see maybe a play evolved.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
But the decision making.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
I always felt for the officials that really had a
feel for the game, the decision making was really important
because sometimes people anticipate plays and they.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
Don't really happen.

Speaker 4 (25:56):
Yes, you know, but they're just not they've already they watching,
And those are the things. Yeah, you had always had it.
You had a pretty good you had a pretty good
feel for you know, uh, knowing that Nope, that one's foul,
I got to call it, you know, versus like, yeah, nope.

Speaker 12 (26:12):
You galed one. Filled anticipate, anticipate the play.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
Not the call, right.

Speaker 5 (26:18):
So I kind of always knew where to look next
because when I played, like I told Jay earlier you
were talking, I was one of those ping in the
ask guys that when I played, I played, and I
rapped and I coached all at the same time. So
I was always telling everybody what to do, calling the
time outs for our team and doing all that stuff.
So I thought I had a pretty good feel for
what was going on out there. I just kind of

(26:40):
that evolved right over to my referee, and I just
kind of sometimes I'd coach the kids up, probably too much.
I coached the kids up a lot, and you can
talk them out of fouls, you can you know, hey,
you're over the line here, Hey twenty two too much? Yeah, okay,
better screen, twenty five, better screen, Yeah you're moving too much.
When you get you the next time you can save

(27:01):
yourself fouls. You can make the game better, you know,
and by not having so many whistles at certain times.

Speaker 4 (27:06):
Well as a player, I can tell you the kids
like that. They truly liked that conversation. It's it's quick
as to the point. It's like, okay, because I know
I'm trying to get away with something as a player anyway.

Speaker 3 (27:16):
Okay, but no, no, no, no, you know, ring your back?
Yeah yeah, So, how how long have you been retired?
How long have you been.

Speaker 5 (27:23):
Retired from refereeing? Yes, two thousand and four, retired from
my real job. Twenty fourteen. I refereed for another four years,
I referee from I retired from refereeing in twenty eighteen.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
So I've had rastadter On and Bob Schofield and those guys,
And I have two questions.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
So, how do you watch a game? Now?

Speaker 2 (27:42):
Do you watch the referee? You watch the game? One?

Speaker 3 (27:45):
And two?

Speaker 2 (27:46):
When you watch the game, even when you rafft, did
you kind of you know, have the whistle in hand
or in your mountainting?

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Wow, that was a great move by whomever.

Speaker 5 (27:53):
Oh oh yeah, yeah. I when I when I watch
the games now, I watch everything I watch the refs
in the game. I watch them all, and I did
when I was a little kid. I'm sure I remember
watching Mindy Rudolph when I was a little kid watching
NBA came eleven, twelve, thirteen, So I just have a

(28:13):
knack for that. But when I was out there watching
the game, I go great past twenty two. And that's
how you build relationships too, right, Yeah, you compliment them
on stuff that, oh that was terrific, you know, nice past,
nice look whatever, you know, as you're running down the court,
and you enjoy those really good moments.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
So I've got sure, I've got an open ended questions.
So you take it the way you want to, and
maybe I follow up. But you know, we spent some
time earlier today on the show talking about the challenges
with coaches and the way things are right now. Officials
have had their changes and challenges over time too, and
so you know, just just just speak to some of

(28:59):
the development evolution of an officiating thing one from you know,
or consider two man crew to three man crew. You know,
some of the things that changed with the shot clock
and you know, no shot clock forty five seconds, thirty
five thirty.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
And then maybe even just the speed of the game.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
And what about the reviews now because now you're being
judged in real time.

Speaker 4 (29:24):
Yeah, so just kind of how that's gone and just
evolved in that in that profession, the.

Speaker 5 (29:31):
Game has gotten so much quicker, you know, and as
you've helped quite a bit in just the last ten years,
I think Jay, in the fact that you know, it
was more plotting, you know, more half court stets, more
physical on the post, you know, but you never back
and the game got too physical, and it's been a

(29:53):
point of emphasis for twenty years. Take some of the
physicality and the resting out of the game, and I mean,
you we're back to the good ushow A teams. Right.
Bill Walton, who I think is the best tenner ever
played the game, I'm not sure you can even play
right now because he doesn't shoot the three, right, I mean,
the game has just evolved so much, especially at the
NBA level. If you can't shoot the three as a

(30:14):
six eleven seven footer, it's like, yeah, I'm not sure
you can play. So it's gone for me, ap plotting more.
You know, then it got real physical and so we
got we got you try to get the physicality out
of the game, and we still need to do that.
We need to allow them freedom of movement so they
actually play basketball. But now the game is really evolved

(30:36):
into a three point you know, the analytics and all
that stuff. Three point shooting, you know, and spacing. You know,
look at the NBA, everything's spaced way out. I don't
even like watching it, you know, it's just but the
college is like that, and it's it's a spacing game
where they and it's such a dribbled driving game. Now
remember the old the old flex offense. Everybody used to

(30:56):
run and pass the game in flex offense. Don't see
that stuff anymore. I'd like to see guys almost go
back to it to see if they can start running
it again. And people wouldn't even know how to play,
how to defend it, you know what I mean. But
so it's it's now it's a dribbled drive game, and
it's a path play drive on the path play and

(31:19):
you either go up and you continue to the hoop
or you kick it out to the three in the
corner for a guys standing there waiting for it. And
so these guys, it's it's changed. It's a free flowing
so you have to really allow the players to play
and move. There's got to be freedom of movement, and
if there's not, you're going to have issues. Everybody's so

(31:43):
quick and so every five years it seems to evolve
into a different thing that and official's got to stay
up with that and keep up with that.

Speaker 4 (31:50):
So I'm just I'm inferring something from what you said.
But would it be fair to say that reducing the
shot clock to you know, to less to less time,
did that help clean up post play?

Speaker 5 (32:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (32:10):
And the physical and the physical nature.

Speaker 12 (32:12):
Yeah, I think it did. I think you can reduce
the clock. What's the NBA twenty four seconds?

Speaker 5 (32:16):
Yeah, I think you could reduce the clock for twenty
four seconds. It's not going to have much of a difference.

Speaker 12 (32:22):
I got it.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
I hope I didn't do that for sure.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Well, is it was it easier This is a bad word,
but was it easier to officiate now than what it was?
And I can remember like Wisconsin in the final four
that in the regular you know, okay.

Speaker 12 (32:36):
Yeah, Wisconsin and Michigan State, right, and in.

Speaker 5 (32:39):
The final four, Yeah, that's when that's when they said
wait a second here, guys, Yes, that was the exact.

Speaker 12 (32:45):
Timeframe wait a second.

Speaker 5 (32:47):
Here these games are fifty five to fifty four, and
here's Owen Bennett and these guys, great defensive coaches, and
they said, it's just gotten too physical. We need we
need rough the rough post play, the physical of it,
the freedom of movement of it.

Speaker 12 (33:02):
I mean it was twenty years.

Speaker 5 (33:04):
Ago, which was about that time frame. We need to we.

Speaker 12 (33:06):
Need to let guys.

Speaker 5 (33:07):
Play the game. And the NBA went to the point
where they don't even touch the guards, right, that's why
little short guards didn't play because they can't get touched.
They don't even get touched.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
I remember that that game. It was a nineteen eighteen
halftime score. Yeah, with Wisconsin mistake because Wisconsin beat US
in uh.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
In a one eight matchup on the way the final four. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (33:29):
I'd already had some experience with Dick Bennett teams FM
when I was at Butler and he was at Green Bay,
and I remember that later on that spring coach Bennett retired. Yeah,
and he's like, you know, I thought the I thought
the idea was to play winning basketball, he says, But
now what I'm hearing from people is that winning isn't enough.
I have to play a certain way so maybe I

(33:50):
maybe the game has passed me up and its time
for me.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
And then his son took over the same type of situation,
you know.

Speaker 5 (33:56):
But yeah, well I know Dick and Tony when they
were they'd.

Speaker 12 (33:59):
Be a shoe.

Speaker 5 (33:59):
Yeah, they used to come down and play golf with
me down here. My son was their basketball manager for
four or five years up there w shoes at both
best people in the world curricic right, great, great, great coaches.
Here's my you know, Tony Dinnett, how would you like
how did you.

Speaker 12 (34:16):
Guys like to be?

Speaker 9 (34:17):
In?

Speaker 5 (34:21):
And Williams back there at North Atlanta and Duke, and
all of a sudden, this kid shows up. Tony shows
up from WHU he shows up out the acc I
thought he was the best young, best coach in America
for a number of years, totally. How would you like
to be? How would you like to be? And Williams
back there running the show, dominating, and all of a sudden,

(34:41):
this young kid shows up and he starts beating your
ass at Virginia, right, And he's exactly who they used
to be, and now they got to deal with him.

Speaker 3 (34:50):
In the style that he played.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
In the style that he played that said because he
was here for a while, right, you know, for a
minute up in Washington State and talking to him, I
thought one he won A fantastic human being, a very bright,
thoughtful guy. I remember talking him on the phone. Is
if you weren't coaching, what would you be doing. I'd
be a teacher, school teacher, you know, simple, simple dude,

(35:12):
but just very good at what he did well when you.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
Met many times.

Speaker 4 (35:16):
If you it doesn't happen often, Okay, if it did,
USC would never lose in football. Okay, you can match
the coach with the school and and and and everything
about it.

Speaker 3 (35:29):
You have a marriage that's phenomenal. Okay.

Speaker 4 (35:32):
And so you're still at North Carolina and Duke and
you're you're you're you're churning players, right, but people were
going to Virginia and they weren't leaving early. He's finding
guys that they're going to stick around, and they keep
you know, the tony.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Guys of the world.

Speaker 4 (35:46):
You know that that that the big ten guys didn't
want him. He's from Indianapolis, but he goes there and
he's a sharpshooter. And so now you've got these four
year guys in lo and behold. You know, yes, you
you win conference titles and you you win the national championship.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
It's not pretty, but you know it's hard to play.

Speaker 5 (36:06):
He has some terrific teams. They just sealed defensively so well.
And but you know e've all too. He started scoring,
you know, he started scoring. They they they realized that,
you know, we gotta, we gotta, we got to put
the ball in the whole too, because.

Speaker 3 (36:21):
That's I don't want to embarrass you.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
And this might be a tough question, but she retired
to what the hell? Who gave you the most grief
when you showed up and he said, oh god, I
gotta gob that game.

Speaker 5 (36:36):
You know, some guys, Mike Montgomery, your your buddy, who
is one of the best coaches around. He was a
tough guy because, you know what, he knew what was
going on out there. Some of these coaches don't really
know what's going on. They're just worried about the players.
They're gonna whine and you know, give your grief when

(36:59):
you have when when it didn't go their way. But
when Mike said something, he was usually right. Well, you
had to be on your game when you had Mike,
Well you did have.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
To be in your game and a Mike And it's
funny because I I, you know, I know, I haven't
worked for him for six years. You know that his
you know, he was somebody that he was never he'd
looked at the crew that was coming. He was he
was never happy with the crew, but there was just
some people. He was more unhappy that they were going
to be there, you know. And I think you and I,

(37:30):
you know, talked a couple of weeks ago, you know,
and he said, you know, and I told you what
Mike had said when we when I told, you know, uh,
try to get you guys connected. He says, you know,
I was like Carmel, you know, yeah, you know, he's
he's good. So that was the thing with Mike. You know,
he would he'd carry on, but once he got in
the locker room after the game, it was never. Never,
there was never an official that determined an outcome.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
He says, you know, we didn't know this, we didn't
do that.

Speaker 4 (37:55):
But he he was very acerbic and how he could
how he could say something to you because he wasn't demonstrative.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
No, well, those powers of him and Loot on the
same court in those big games I could tell you.

Speaker 5 (38:10):
Had he was. He was. You know, some guys you
walk in Arizona, you walk in with Luke, you want
to be on your game. You didn't want to give
these guys a chance, you know, And so really, I
mean sometimes you have to step up your game and
try to be perfect. It's hard, but you got to
try to do it because you.

Speaker 12 (38:27):
Don't want to deal with that nonsense, did you? And
some guys you can just.

Speaker 5 (38:31):
Float along with, Like one guy that's terrific to work for.
I always loved work for Ben Holland right, really good
coach Ben Hallan.

Speaker 12 (38:40):
He never, very very rarely.

Speaker 5 (38:44):
Said anything the officials. He's one of those guys. He
didn't waste any energy on officials. Excuse it all up
on his players. And that's why he's so good.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
He would scowl, that's all. He's on the show every
now and again too, doing the basketball season.

Speaker 3 (38:56):
I think the world will be Oh, he's terrific. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
So did me ask you this is a dumb question,
because you know Cartmal, did you have a son who played.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
In the league?

Speaker 2 (39:03):
No, No, I didn't, But there was apartment. Wasn't there
a cart Can you remember? Maybe it was just your
last name because I know the last name. Maybe Okay,
that's just me. That's just I don't.

Speaker 12 (39:13):
I don't remember it.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Miss Do you miss it? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (39:17):
I missed the competitiveness of it. I missed managing the games.
I missed the relationships with you know, with the players
and the coach. You know, I got TJ McConnell was
at one of my all time favorite players.

Speaker 12 (39:30):
YEA, their guy there in Arizona. Right, he has no
business doing what he's doing in the NBA, but he.

Speaker 5 (39:36):
Does it because he's so sharp, doesn't make any mistakes,
you know, he just he just has no bnses doing
what he's doing. He does it. I used to love
him because he was a coach on the floor, like, Okay,
we could get along, we could talk about stuff that
we knew what each other was talking about, and he
had that personality and that he could deal with the

(39:57):
referees and he you know, he.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
He was grown up.

Speaker 5 (40:00):
Yeah, and some kids you can't even talk to because
you know, they're just kids, right, And he was terrific.
He's on my off And I used to look at Sean.
TJ would do some stuff. I just kind of look
at Sean. He looked at me and he smile like yeah,
which is crazy, but he.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
Gets out here. No, he got it. In fact, I
got to go over time. But Luke in twenty thirteen fourteen,
when when he transferred over from dukaneh, I said, how's
the team looking? Because he was allowed to go see
the team with Sean and he says, well, the best
guy on the team isn't playing it this year.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
He says, who could that be?

Speaker 2 (40:31):
And he had some players Sean did, right, and he
says it's the guard, the guard from Ducane. I'm thinking
you really, he says, yeah, he knows how to play
the game.

Speaker 4 (40:41):
Just smart dude, Yeah right, Eric Aaron Gordon was a
pretty good player.

Speaker 5 (40:45):
Yeah, yeah, I know it. Yeah, I know it.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Well, thanks Dick, appreciated very much for joining us today.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Thank you.

Speaker 12 (40:53):
Okay, you bet right, take care of it.

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Speaker 1 (44:24):
Dot Com streaming live on the iHeartRadio app. This is
I on the Ball with Steve Ravera on Fox Sports
fourteen fifty eight.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
Hey, welcome back to my on the ball here on
Fox Sports fourteen fifty I'm Steve Rivera. Your Jay, John,
it was fun.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
That was fun.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
Do you think that he picked montgovere because that was
a safety safety name?

Speaker 3 (44:50):
But he's right, Oh, he's right.

Speaker 4 (44:52):
From the standpoint, I just think he was kind of
a familiarity piece, right because you know, there are a
number of games that he becomes his assistant there with
with with Mike.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
And Dick's got you know, Dick's got the game.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
And but he's spot on because if you messed up,
you knew that Mike knew the rule and and he
was you know, kind of stately.

Speaker 3 (45:10):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
He always says was the stately guy. He looked like
the senator. But if if he looked like that, so.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
You know, I don't know at that level.

Speaker 4 (45:19):
I mean I know, at that level of officiating, you
probably were a player, Okay, at some point in time.

Speaker 3 (45:26):
Sure you knew, you know, you have a field.

Speaker 4 (45:28):
One of the things I will say for both coach
Olson and Montgomery is the referees respected a coach whose
team played well, played the purpose and you know, you
could watch it and you knew basketball yourself.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
You're like, that's good stuff.

Speaker 4 (45:45):
Yeah, And so I do think that the officials felt
that way, and he kind of alluded to that officials
felt that way about refereeing those guys because it's like
that's good stuff.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
You know, it's good stuff. And yeah, they appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
What I just heard you say to me without saying
the word, there's a bias and we all have it, right,
Humans have bias, whether it's right or wrong. And you go,
you know, when you go see it was on a
place to afford. You know, you're gonna get a good game,
good athletes, good coaches, and they're gonna play their their
butts off and try to do it the right way.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
If that makes any sense, well it does.

Speaker 4 (46:19):
And even even as Dick said, as an official, when
you had a game like that, you you know, you
can't script it. Yeah, okay, it's it's gonna come down
to the wire or something strange. It's gonna happen.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
I've got it beyond my I got it beyond my
my mark.

Speaker 5 (46:36):
You know.

Speaker 4 (46:36):
And uh, that's one of the things that that you know,
he talked about talking to the players and stuff like that,
and some of the some of the officials can't do that.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
I was funny when he said that. I would think
I was taken a little aback by that, but go ahead.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
No, but some of the and.

Speaker 4 (46:52):
There are times when when officials will make calls and
you're like, you don't have to call that.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
Yeah, that's just there's a way to get out of that. Yeah, okay,
And you.

Speaker 4 (47:03):
Know you can you can think of times and I
can go, I'm gonna go through particular games where somebody
picks up an invert in third foul or a foul
and you're like, dude, you.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
Just changed the game.

Speaker 4 (47:15):
You just you just changed the game there, and that
was so far away from the from the play that
you could have just talked him out.

Speaker 3 (47:23):
Of it and let the game happen.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
So let me ask you this, because Loot's not around obviously,
and I don't think I've ever asked in this did
they ever give you guys an explanation on the Williams
over the back, oh, the Jason Gardner, because let's say
they Jason admitted he failed, it just wasn't called. Everyone
knows he was fouled. Was there an explanation?

Speaker 3 (47:46):
I don't know that I ever heard anybody said.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Anything, because that would have changed the game.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
Well, that conversation, because again, you can I've been in
this conversation so many times over twenty some years, and
I'll just say to somebody, did you ever see the game?
And you remember the game, and then just google Jason
Williams rides Jason Gardner and there's the picture.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
Jason Williams feet are off the ground.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
And so you know, the honest, the honest answer to
that is, we're down two at halftime, okay. And when
Jason was with Jiambi, when he was with Shambie on
TV and they did that thing from Michale and the
Batter game, it was classic.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
Yeah, okay, and Seanmi goes, this was not a foul.

Speaker 4 (48:24):
This was not called a foul, you know, and all
that and uh, but Jason Williams said it wrong there.
He said it would have been a fourth fould. No,
it would have been his third foul. But there was
eight minutes to go in the first house. And so, okay,
you'd like to think without him, now, Duke had a
good team, right, you know, so Duhan was a sub
and so you know, do they still guys? But you

(48:47):
like to think, okay, so maybe we go in at
halftime and we're up four, okay, and he's got third,
he's got a third, he's got three fouls when he
starts the second half, that's one. So all those things
change that your tended to the ability to play and
take a chance.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
And you know you don't know.

Speaker 4 (49:05):
I mean Gilbert still had a bruce messed up shoulder
from the Backgroundolf and Luke Walton was playing with broken thumb.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
And well, let me say this, I think you lost
the game in a game that you didn't even play.
When Maryland had them by double digits in the semis.
I'm thinking Arizona is going to win another title because
they could beat Maryland.

Speaker 4 (49:26):
It was twenty two, by the way, they had them
by twenty two. Now, I don't know how many final
fours you went to. I've been to nineteen, okay. So
I went from you know, nineteen eighty three all the
way to twenty twenty one. I stopped going. So the
final four crowd is typically a corporate crowd, yes, okay,

(49:48):
And so your prime seats are there for people that
want to be entertained. You know, you've got your bastions
of their fandom, sure, but by and large it's corporate.
It's corporate. It's not a part of and crowd in
that Maryland Duke game. The city, the people, the corporate
crowd in Minneapolis said we have had enough. So I've

(50:10):
never been to the Final four since numberfore in which
eight the predominant group was cheering from Maryland. And then
in our game on the championship people were cheering for Arizona.
People had had enough that call, and then in the
last eight minutes of the Maryland game, they just kept
found calling fouls on Maryland.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
And that's how that's how well, but that's how.

Speaker 4 (50:35):
It can change because now the Maryland kids are going
they still have a lead, but they go to the band,
they go to the halftime with everybody's in you know,
three fouls, two, everybody's got fouls.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
And so that was one of the things.

Speaker 4 (50:47):
You know, that that one was where referees shouldn't have
an impact on the thing, and they did.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
Ye I'm glad to remember that because that's what they'll
play Maryland. They can win this thing even despite the
Gilbert being hurt and Luke being with his thumb in
his hand. Uh And that was two handicaps that you
played with.

Speaker 4 (51:06):
Yeah, well, in the second half of that game, you
know Don Lavy, he went he went nuts. Right, But
we couldn't guard Boozer. Yeah, you know, we just couldn't
guard Boozer. And and and he's just stepped up, you know.
And you know it wasn't Baddie a you know, and
and they had his windows, but you know Boozer, you know.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
Yeah, he beat us.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
They were loaded, so were you and handicapped though with
Gilbert being what he was and Luke being what he was. Okay,
thanks again man as usual, talk to you next Thursday.
You bet we already have our guy for Thursday. I
just said to step up my guest list. Thanks again
Jake for coming. That was fun with mister Cartmell. And
thanks Lamont you know I love you. Come back, baby,

(51:47):
come back. Thanks all right