Episode Transcript
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Must be high done a love stormwith Alan, I was worsted done and
sign. Here's the host of Faithand Goal, the voice of the Minnesota
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Vikings, Paul Allen. Faith andGoal thirty eight is in the air.
And it once was said birds ofa feather flock together, and so will
pigs and swine. That that's anold English saying that is self explanatory.
In fact, somebody else told medecades ago it's impossible to soar with eagles
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when flying with turkeys. The thecompany we keep is so important, and
that includes sometimes eliminating things you haveknown and with which have become overly comfortable.
Like if you mix with those whoconstantly fall back on say sexual innuindow,
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eliminate it, ignore it, prayto God's will. He puts people
in your lives that are inspiring,yet also not afraid to admonish. Guided
by the Holy Spirit, the apostlePaul wrote to the Church of Colisse in
Colossians Chapter three, verse fifteen,Let the peace of Christ rule in your
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hearts, since as members of onebody you were called to peace and be
thankful. Let the message of Christdwell among you richly as you teach and
admonish one another with all wisdom throughpsalms, hymns and songs from the spirits,
singing to God, with gratitude inyour heart. And whatever you do,
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whether in word or deed, doit all in the name of the
Lord Jesus, giving thanks to Godthe Father through him. That's Colossians three,
beginning with verse fifteen. As youteach and admonish one another, believers
conversing, learning, questioning, andstrengthening one another. Now that's a squad.
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Now that's my squad. So who'son your squad? Who's on my
squad? People who dwell in negativityand anxiety, potentially draining inspiration and happiness
and flying in the face of howyou believe God wants you to live.
And through all of that, thereare options. What are the options?
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I mean, there are many options, But I feel that's the low key
admonish part of that passage that wejust shared. I pray to God's will
to guide my heart and decisions insituations I don't prefer. Sometimes he has
us speak up, sometimes he hasus move on. So there are a
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couple options right there. And asthe passage teaches, whatever you do,
whether in word, or deed.Do it all in the name of the
Lord, giving thanks to God theFather. Through him, He'll guide you
through prayer, even if it's viaroots. You cannot see, hear,
touch, or smell. Right outof the gate, birds of a feather
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flock together, and so will pigsand swine. The Bible also shares in
First Corinthians, Chapter fifteen, versethirty three, do not be deceived.
Bad company ruins good morals. Psalmone nineteen, verse sixty three. I
am a companion of all who fearyou, of those who keep your precepts.
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That means people who are similar incharacter, background, or interest tend
to associate with each other. Anew bird with whom I fly is Aaron
Pierce with Steiger International. It isSteiger dot org if you'd like to learn
more about this powerful, locally basedministry with a worldly reach. Aaron,
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his brother Ben, and father Davidstarted this ministry forty years ago and it's
a ministry that is both powerful andimpactful. They mobilize believers to reach young
people who would not walk into achurch, and they're so much more.
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Faith and Goal thirty eight starts now. Faith and Goal Steiger dot org wonderful,
vast, multifaceted webs site with manyoptions for believers in God, Christ
and the Holy Spirit and for thoseon the fence. So, Aaron,
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what are the messages conveyed for thosewho just check out the website Steiger dot
org. Well, Steiger is actuallya worldwide mission organization. We're in one
hundred and twenty cities around the world, and it's all about how can we
mobilize followers of Jesus to reach particularlyyoung people that wouldn't walk into a church.
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Got a lot of people all overthe world today, young people in
particular, they have pretty negative viewsof God and what it means to follow
him and what the church is allabout. And so a lot of people
they just want nothing to do withit, and a lot of it's based
on misconceptions and maybe things that hurtthey've experienced in the past. So our
heart is how can we bring Jesusand who he really is to people that
wouldn't walk into a church today.So when you say like negative views,
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I mean that they're to teach theirown whether they want to craft God to
the best of what their lives are, or you know, they're on the
fence. With things. What wouldsome of them be, Like, how
can an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God have anything to do
with anything evil on the earth.Yeah, I mean that's one of the
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reasons. You know, in ourcountry, a lot of people have experienced
something to do with the church.They've grown up with it often and and
then often they walk away, theydeconstruct, and there's a lot of reasons
they do, and and one ofthem is that reason. It's that that's
the problem of evil, the problemof suffering. How could a good,
all powerful God allow suffering? Andand that's a that's a good question,
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and it's a tough one, especiallyif you've gone through something really personal.
So a lot of the reasons thatpeople have for walking away from the church
or having a negative view, they'rethey're understandable reasons. There's good answers to
those questions. And we could diveinto that if you want to get into
it. But the reality is thatpeople have a lot of reasons why they've
walked away, and a lot ofthose they're they're the reasons that are understandable,
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and it takes passion and creating asense of really understanding people in order
to process those things. Well,but our whole thing is how can we
equip people to have those conversations withpeople that have walked away or people that
are non religious and they don't thinkit's relevant to their lives. How can
we have those conversations in a loving, productive way, not an argument?
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Okay, so so like in termsof suffering or how can it all loving,
all knowing, all powerful God permitsuffering? Did did? Don't you
feel like it legitimately goes back tothe Garden of Eden. It's like,
okay, well why did? Whywas sin permitted to come into the world
through Adam and Eve? With theanswer being well, Jesus became the new
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atom or or the cross. Thecrucifixion is the ultimate suffering experienced by any
man in the history of the world. However, on the other side of
it, like there are so many, so many things in life, in
faith or whatever, there's the ultimatesuffering. And that's also something off which
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you can work when you're suffering torecognize what went into that suffering and just
how tantamount and bad it was.But then there was the resurrection, which
was the beautiful side of the suffering. Yeah, well, I think you
think about pain and evil and suffering, and would why would God allow that?
And I think one of the thingsto understand is like God, he
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designed us to be in relationship withhim. That that is like what you
find is we can't We are notsatisfied with material things, with accomplishments.
There's never enough. And the reasonis that we were created to have a
relationship with God. That is wherewe find our ultimate satisfaction. But a
relationship necessitates love, and love necessitatesfree will. I have to if I
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have to, if I'm forced tolove you like a robot, is that
love? No, I have tohave the choice, and so I have
to choose to pursue you or towalk away, to obey, or to
deny. And so God created usto be in relationship with him, which
means he also created for us tochoose to love him or not. And
the consequences of walking away from Him, which is sin, is the brokeness
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we experience in the world today.So recognizing that suffering is a result of
our choices, but that God didn'tjust leave us like that, right like
he didn't just say, well,you're screwed. He actually entered into our
suffering. He has compassionate for oursomething to the point where he entered into
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our suffering in Jesus to pay theprice or something to offer us hope,
to offer us healing and reconciliation.So yeah, that whole challenge of suffering
is real, but it has todo with the whole idea of God of
love who creates an opportunity to choosehim or to walk away from him.
Amen. That was absolutely spectacular andbeautiful and just like seeing your dad on
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the sideline before the Vikings Chargers gameholding your eleven year old son and your
father, David, you know,came up and said hello, and I
was chatting with some people and wedidn't get a chance to chat for a
long time. But in knowing thestory of how this ministry began four decades
ago in Amsterdam, it's a beautifulstory. Please share. Yeah. So
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my parents were in Amsterdam and theyhad heart for people of Amsterdam, young
people particularly that wouldn't walk into achurch, which in a city like Amsterdam
that's pretty much everyone. And theysee these big, beautiful cathedrals and they're
just like they're essentially dead. They'remuseums and no one shows up on Sunday,
and so that's people's view of Godin a city like Amsterdam. And
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so my dad was like, weneed these people need to know who the
real Jesus is. And so hewould go into the bars and night clubs
late at night with a small groupof people and they would share Jesus people
and befriend them, develop relationships,and then they would write the names of
everyone they met, and they'd goout in the forest and they'd pray all
night for these people. What happenedis God gave him a broken heart for
people. He really began to lovepeople. And then in that time of
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really getting to know these people,he said, God, would you show
us a way that we can communicateyour love and your truth in a way
that people would actually understand. Andthis was in the eighties. Yeah,
this was the height of the punkrock movement that was like the social movement
of the time. So my dadfelt like God said start a punk band,
especially in Europe. Yeah, Amsterdamwas like the epicenter of the punk
rock movement. And so he startsa punk band and uses the stage to
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share Jesus. He followed Paul's example. Paul said in first Corinthians two one
through five, that he preached Christand him crucified so that people will not
be convinced by human wisdom but byGod's power. Amen. And that's what
we need. We need God's powerand the powers and the message of the
Cross. So they shared the crossfrom stage in these clubs and bars,
and all of a sudden people startedto respond and people started to say,
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Yeah, I want to know thisJesus you're talking about. And so they
started a Bible study on a bigred boat behind the central train station in
Amsterdam. And it was reaching thesepeople who would normally want nothing to do
with the church, and they werefinding Jesus, they were growing in their
walk with him, and it becamethis dynamic ministry reaching people from Amsterdam.
And the address of that boat wasSteiger, okay, And so that's where
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the name of the organization came fromand eventually grew all over the world in
like the center of Amsterdam. Rightliterally behind the central train station in Amsterdam,
there's a river and that's where thiswas and it became this dynamic cup
and it's that's the environment I grewup in. Like my dad would take
me and my brother on tour withhim with the band. Once that started
to go other places and we'd belike in some nightclub in I don't know,
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Poland or something, and he wouldbring us on stage and he would
say, these are my sons.I love them. There's nothing that I
wouldn't do for them. Everything thatI have is theirs, and if someone
tried to hurt them, I wouldprotect them with my life. And then
he would say, and that ishow God feels about you. And he
would equate a father's love for hischildren with God's love for them. And
I saw people in those environments withtears and their eyes praying to receive Jesus,
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and it totally ruined me because Isaw that God was real, that
he wasn't just this nice religious thingwe did on Sunday, but that He
was real. Yeah. And andand music it can be so stimulating,
impactful and defective to the senses,whether it's in the body and the heart
or in the mind. And italso is a big part of the Bible.
I mean the book of Psalms,uh with with with King David singing
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Psalms a majority of it. Uh. Then you you you something I read
earlier from the Book of Colossians,chapter three. Part of that passage was
you will sing hymns, you willsing psalms, and so therefore and and
the the song of I'm right afterpsalms and proverbs. Uh, the the
song of psalms or songs of songwas a song of Solomon. Yeah,
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I mean that that's a big partof it too. So I love how
God put that natural tie in there, which also leads to a relationship you
guys have with Steiger Andsteiger dot Orgwith Brian head Welch, who is a
guitarist and a founding member of theband Coorn. Now, if people hear
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the band Corn and they think whateverform of speed metal or whatever metal that
is, you know, they theyget given in a judgment casting world,
they'll be like, well, thatdoesn't work now, you can't possibly do
that, and look at these lyricsand all that. So Brian head Welch,
how did that happen? And andand and and and what what what
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do you guys do with Steiger withhead Welch. Well, so, so
Brian's story is amazing. So youknow, like you said, he founded
he was part of the founding membersof Corn and they went from you know,
playing in nothing to you know,arenas around the world, and and
of course he went he was dealingwith drugs and all sorts of brokenness,
and through that he had someone sharedJesus with him. He had an encounter
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with Jesus, left the band totallywalked away from it and started to walk
with Jesus and it transformed his life. But then he felt like God said,
I brought you up, so youcan go back in and bring hope.
And so through a series of events, he actually rejoined the band,
and at that time we met himand we began to build a friendship and
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we end up coming together to shareJesus with his fans. And so what
we do is they'll do these bigshows and then after the show, we
invite people that want to come hereBrian's story and people want to hear his
story, right because he's the guitaristthe court, and so a bunch of
people come and he in a reallyloving natural way, shares what God did
in his life and how that Jesuswas the answer that he was looking for.
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And then afterwards we just talk andpray with people, and we'll do
this after his shows. I've donethis in shows like in Japan and Tokyo.
I've done this in crazy festivals withhim in Germany, and I've done
it here in the Twin Cities aswell, and actually this weekend we're doing
it with him in Sacramento. Soit's just such a cool way where God
takes something that was broken and redeemsit to bring hope, and he his
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life is so transformed by Jesus thathe wants other people to know it as
well. When when, hopefully sometime, can Brian head Welch join this podcast,
Faith and Gol. Well, I'msure we can make that happen.
Let's find out when they're playing inthe in the Cities and we can go
to a show and then we'll recordthe podcast. Okay, Now, now,
Aaron, you said something during duringthe course of describing, uh,
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what what could be an effectual callingor some form of calling for Brian head
Welch, the lead guitarist for Korn, And you said, encounter with Jesus.
Now in people to whom I ministeror with whom I chat that that's
a common thread when people are like, well, well I've never you know,
how do I know I had anencounter. Sure, well, how
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do you know you didn't? Youknow? It's I've never had this encounter.
It's it's obviously not you know,having like the Old Testament the Angel
of the Lord appeared. It's notlike that. I'm mean, it's how
would you describe it? Well?I think that the challenge, especially in
a country like ours where people arefamiliar to some extent with Christianity. What
Christianity is not a philosophy. Christianityis not like a lifestyle behavior lifestyle.
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Christianity is a person. It's Jesus. And so what what it's about is
being in relationship with the person ofJesus and that that it's in that restored
relationship with Jesus that we find life. And so what we're talking about is
not do you believe the Jesus principlesor do you align your lifestyle in a
particular way. All those things aredownstream. What it is is you meet
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Jesus and when you see the beautyof who he is and and and the
amazing thing that he did for youby dying on the cross for you,
that transforms your life. So it'snot about accepting a certain theological beliefs,
it's about meeting the person of Jesus, and he is he is right there.
He's right there. And it's aboutopening your heart and seeking him in.
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He will find him. And soit's a paradigm shift sometimes, right,
it's not about philosophy or behavioral life. So it's about the person of
Jesus. Yeah, and and andyou know whether whether you know, well,
I believe in Christ or I believein God the Holy Spirit. I'm
I'm Catholic, I'm Lutheran, I'mMuslim, I'm a Jew, I'm a
Christian, I'm a I'm a Baptist, you know, a fundamental Baptist.
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It's it's getting to heaven has nothingto do with tradition, and belief in
Jesus and love in Jesus a hasnothing to do with tradition. It has
nothing to do with experience. Itcomes down to what the Gospels of Jesus
Christ will teach you. And theBook of John would be a great place
to start. And there's so muchto unpack off what you said. So
the next time, because there willbe a next time. The way I
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have you in here, you know, I'd like to go down that road
of talking about Okay, well,you know, I slash. We are
not here to give you an answer, but here is, here's the evidence
and the eye witnesses on top ofeyewitnesses on top of eyewitnesses with corroborating reports
than epistles, and then tying themto the prophecy of the Old Testament.
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And it's no, we don't havethe answer. Only God has the answer,
but we have the hope, andand it's based on evidence and eyewitnesses.
Now it's Steiger dot org, partof part of just a fascinating,
wonderful, wonderful, deeply rooted website. I do encourage believers and non believers
to go to stiger dot org andjust see everything they offer, including hope
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for global youth culture. And youknow, it's it's it's beautiful that forty
years ago God had your family beginthis in Amsterdam, because that's in the
East, and we're in the Westerncivilization. And I would imagine when you
get to the East, when youget to Europe and different parts of that
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of that of the world, it'smarkedly more difficult to convey things than it
is in the West. Is thatfair? Yeah? I mean the post
Christian culture that Europe is it canbe tough, right. It's actually interesting
because Europe is one of these placesthat's further along than the US. And
so a lot of people, alot of young people in Europe, they
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didn't reject Christianity. They actually knownothing about it because it was their grandparents
that rejected it. And so here'sthe reality that most people are drawn to
something spiritual. They want something transcendent. The most of us don't believe that
this world is nothing more than thematerial things. You can see that all
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of life is about is pursue pleasure, avoid playing, and eventually you're gonna
be dead and there's nothing else toit. Most of us say, no,
there's gotta be something more. Mostof us are drawn to something spiritual,
and so what you find is inthe absence of that, people will
seek it out. And so alot of young Europeans are open to spirituality,
and actually a lot of young Americanstoo. And so the problem is
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that a lot of it has gottenuh. The baggage of some institutional religion
has played into it, and it'screated baggage that people reject. But there's
a hunger for something transcendent, andI think it's that's the place to connect
with people. Well, and andand really the the significant doubting and second
guessing really didn't begin until the sixteenhundreds with with Descartes, and then then
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then GALILEI and and and excuse me, Galileo, and and then Isaac Newton
and and then it just continued tomorph. And people, I've learned or
I believe what, would either morphGod into the God that was convenient for
them, which is wrong, orthey would they would start to second guess
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and doubt because of the way theworld was going in the first place,
but the way some philosophies were beingpresented to a group that just would not
take time to do the further researchto direct Okay, well, there is
all this evidence and and there wereall these eyewitnesses, and you know,
and then we have the Cross andthe resurrection and and and so on,
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and and you know it. Thecrafting God to the convenience of oneself is
so in vogue in this day andage. Yeah. Again, it's because
I think we want something transcendent,but we want it in our own image,
right Like I want ultimately, Iwant my spiritual you know, reality,
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but I don't want to be conformedor constrained by that. And and
so, yeah, there is thereis a lot of that. You know,
it's interesting because you're kind of speakingof, like, you know,
where things went when when these thescientific revolution and all of that. It's
interesting because science and faith are notopposed to each other. In fact,
a lot of the the those thatthat pioneered scientific discoveries were were influenced by
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their belief in God. They believethat the world is orderly, that it
could be understood, and it wasthat that caused them to really explore nature
to underst stand it. And sothere's this false idea out there that science
and God are that they don't gotogether, and they do. And then
and then in order to believe youhave to in God, you have to
throw your brain out and and justkind of ignore all the facts. That's
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simply not true. And in fact, a careful study of the facts,
not just you know, biblical facts, but like how this world is ordered,
how fine tuned it is, thefact that science shows that there was
an origin to the universe, allthese facts, to me, the most
logical explanation for this world as weexperience it is God. And so I
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it's actually my brain, my rationalthinking that can lead me to that belief.
Now, can I conclusively prove thatGod exists, No, But neither
can I conclusively prove that he doesnot. So faith is required in either
either direction. If I if I'man atheist, that's a faith statement as
well. So we've got to lookat the evidence and then of course,
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you know, experience the reality ofGod's presence of my life. But yeah,
I think that's one of the challengesthat we face today is that people
believe that if I'm going to bein a person of faith, then I
turn my brain off. It's simplynot well well. And also you bring
up the word atheist, and youknow, if there happens to be a
conversation with an atheist, and I'vehad several, it's you know, when
I ask have you read the Bible? I mean, have you, like,
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what part of the Gospels, orwhat part of Adam and Eve through
Genesis and Noah and Enoch and everyI mean, what part is pulling you
from this? And to a man, the majority of them have barely read
any of it. And they'll layon, oh, yeah, sure,
so Lazarus was dead and then hecame back to life. Oh, sure,
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there was water, and then allof a sudden there was wine.
Sure, So they'll get hung upon the supernatural, which I absolutely believe.
And by the way, God issupernatural and the spirit of God is
supernatural. So again, do Ior we have the answer? But do
we have hope with evidence and tonsof eyewitnesses, yes, yeah, exactly,
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way, yeah, of course.And and you know, one of
the one of the reasons some peoplehave a problem with the with things they
see in the Bibles because they don'thave a category for the supernatural, and
so everything has to play be explainedin a naturalistic way. But even that
breaks down, right because like,how did how did nothing come? How
did something come from nothing? Howdid the the all of these these things
form into this fine tune life realitythat we experienced that is supernatural onto itself.
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And so yeah again, but II don't debates and arguments doesn't change
people's hearts, you know, andGod does right exactly, And so I
don't like to approach people that seethe world differently than I do in an
antagonistic way. I think what Ihave, what I believe about Jesus,
I want them to know, becauseI think it's for their good and I
want them to thrive and I wantthem to have all that God has for
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them. But I don't want toapproach them as the enemy because I don't
see them as the enemy. Well, oh great, And it's from an
antagonizing or confrontational standpoint, I'm inlockstep with you on that. I'm just
saying, if you don't have moreexamples than water can't turn to wine.
The conversation's done. I mean,it's where is it going to go from
there? Yeah? I'm going tobe the last to be like, oh
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you're an atheist, Okay, I'llpray for you and then just walk away.
So, I mean, I Icrave those conversations, if only to
learn and and and see what's what'sin that playbook? And I've just yet
to really find something deeply rooted,at least in my life now. At
Steiger dot org. Uh, there'sa part called Jesus in Secular World series.
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What uh? What is that?And and obviously secular world would be
the world in which we live now. But is there anything that you can
share about that? Yeah? Imean that's just a resource for those that
are like man I want to beequipped to know how to live in this
world, to share Jesus in aworld that is secular, that have that
don't believe. The basic idea isthat institutional religion is not relevant to my
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life. That faith is private andyou can believe whatever you want, so
long as you don't share that withother people. And everyone's kind of bought
into a relativistic morality, like whateveryou want to believe is cool. It's
like ice cream plate flavors. Youhave your favorite, I have mine,
but you can't really say one isbetter than the other. And so that's
the world that we're in. That'sthe kind of the air we breathe.
And so how do you live forJesus? How do you share Jesus in
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that context? This is a videoseries in a book that you can pick
up and it'll help you go throughthat process. Steiger dot org if you
would like to learn more about that. Also Hope for Global Youth Culture wonderful,
wonderful section on that. And Aaronalso has a book that recently came
out and it's called Not Beyond Reach. What's the book about? Yeah,
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the subtitles called how to Share Jesuswith the young, the deconstructed, and
the non religious. So how dowe reach people who are far from God,
especially those in our lives that youknow, have walked away and have
you know, things that stand inthe way of them encountering Jesus. And
so it's a guide how to guideto share Jesus with people in your life
that you would think wouldn't want anythingto do with it. And yeah,
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it goes back to some of theconversations we're already having how to a lot
of times, we think. Sohere's a couple of the challenges. Right,
people are searching for connection relationships likewe are hardwired for that and we
and yet we live in a culturetoday there's lonelier than ever before. Loneliness
is like the issue of our day. And so one of the great opportunities
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for us as followers of Jesus isto intentionally pursue people for a relationship.
And so, do you mean lonelyas in like by yourself or the loneliness
that is, Okay, I'm makinggood cash jobs, are cool family kids,
but I just feel like I lackpurpose. Oh yeah, yes,
and yes, so I think lonelinessis a big issue in our culture.
Actually, the US General a surgeonback in May said that the one of
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the greatest health crisises of our dayis loneliness. And a lot of that
has to do with technology, whichis, you know, we're all just
digitally superficially connected, but we're not. And you know, digital communication tends
to be superficial, it tends tobe filtered reality, and so I'm not
connecting in a meaningful way. That'spart of it. We're so busy,
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so distracted. That's a big partof But the other part of it is
our worldview. We have bought intoa secular, humanistic worldview that says I
am at the center and that myidentity, my purpose, and morality is
self defined. And so that naturallyleads to loneliness. It naturally leads to
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anxiety because if if there is noanchor for you to hold onto in the
storm other than yourself, you're gonnabe anxious. If there's no where to
turn for truth, then you're gonnabe confused. And if it's only and
always about me, you're gonna endup lonely. So loneliness is the outworking
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our well what we believe today,and that's the biggest issue. Okay,
now, now a couple more herewith Aaron peer. Stigger dot org is
the website again Bible study for thenon religious, which segues beautifully off what
you just said about that book.The book is called Not Beyond Reach,
written by Aaron Pearce Conversing with ThoseFar from God. I mean it's I
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come across that a fair amount,not only thinking about it myself, praying
about it myself with God's will toguide me to proper roots to handling certain
things. But that's a question thatI've either heard or gotten a fair amount.
Is is like organically sharing the Gospelwith believers or those who are far
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from God, and you know,not being opportunistic with it, but organically
sharing a what the Bible teaches youto do and be doing it properly so
you're not beat the Bible over thehead Christian guy, which nobody wants to
deal with. Yeah. I thinkone of the things that we need today
is to know how to engage ineffective spiritual conversations as a bridge to the
(31:04):
Gospel. And like we said,people are open to spirituality, and if
you think about it, everything wedeal with in life has spiritual implications,
and you're able to have assuming it'sbased on a genuine love for people,
and it's a relationship, you're ableto draw out the spiritual implications of everyday
life. Think about it like this. We all desire relationships, right,
(31:26):
And if I ask you what's themost important thing in your life, You're
not going to say your career.You're not going to say some material thing
your own. You're going to talkabout relationships. You're going to talk about
your family, right, your daughter, your son, You're going to talk
about those relationships. It's because wewere designed for relationship. But then I
also know, because you're a human, that, like me, you have
broken relationships. There's conflict, there'sdisappointment, there's strife, there's drama and
(31:51):
so and I can share my ownexperience with that might even the healthiest families
can't escape drama. And I canask you, why is it? Why
is it though we all desire deeprelationship, why is it none of us
can get away from the brokenness?What is it? Fundamentally that is the
problem. And it leads me tothe fundamental spiritual truth that our relationships are
(32:12):
broken because of sin, and thatwe all need forgiveness, healing, reconciliation.
That is a core need that wehave and that no human can do
that for us. We need somethingelse, We need something perfect, and
that is what Jesus did for us. And so I'm now taking this beautiful
spiritual conversation about relationships and my familyand the brokenness in my own family and
(32:37):
showing how Jesus meets that greatest feltneed of reconciliation, of healing, of
restoration. That's what it's like tohave a spiritual conversation. Rather than me
just pounding a gospel script, Ican use something like relationships to share Jesus
in a relevant way. Man,Not only are you loquacious, but you're
very eloquent with your speech and witha direct approach, just very solt with
(33:00):
the answers, which which I absolutelylove. Now in closing, there's another
section at stagger dot org that Ithat I did not get into because I
wanted to hear you explain it.It's called sexuality in the secular age.
What is that? Well, it'sprobably the thing that creates the most tension
(33:21):
today in terms of people their viewof Christianity and how we view sexual ethics.
And I think The challenge here isthat a lot of people have a
false idea about the Christian view ofsexuality, and they can it can get
pretty tense. And I think thechallenge here is that we need to reframe
this. When I have conversation withpeople about sexuality and my views on it,
(33:43):
I often ask them, you know, if you really want to understand
my view on sexuality, you reallyneed to understand it in context. And
then I and if and I askedthem for permission to share that, And
what I say, is this thecontext is this? You ask them for
permission to share that? Yeah?Love that, Because here's the thing.
We we live in a world thisyou know, hyper polarized, angry political
world, and everyone's mad at eachother and and we can't have real honest
(34:07):
conversations, right, And so partof it is like by just breaking down
the walls and saying like, canI just share my perspective? Can I
just give you context of why Ibelieve tends to kind of like okay,
yeah, let me hear what youhave to say. Yeah, And so
that that's one thing, But thenI say, you know, here's here's
my context. Well, because theperson with whom you're chatting. Sorry to
cut you off. I mean alot, a lot of what I have
(34:30):
I've never had those, rarely havethose conversations. But it's from what I've
seen, read and or learned,is the person on the other side,
for whatever the the gender identity orwhatever approach they're taking it generally is okay,
I'm this, let me guess I'mgoing to hell. Yeah. Yeah,
So you're working from that, right, and and then there's all sorts
(34:51):
of false ideas they have a lotof people have a legalistic view of Christianity,
which means they believe to come toJesus, I have to change the
way I live first, or Ihave to come in a certain way,
and that's not how it is right. Jesus accepts you as you are,
and then he will transform you asyou walk with him. But you don't
have to change to come to him. And that's one lie we have to
believe. The other lie we haveto believe is that if for me to
(35:14):
love you, I have to affirmeverything about you, or if I don't
affirm everything about you, I hateyou, which is a lie, right,
And so one of the ways tochallenge is that is to show this
is I believe that every person,regardless of how they lived their life,
has infinite value. And I believethat because they were created by God and
that he created them unique, thathe loves them, he knows them,
(35:36):
and that that is why anyone hasinfinite value and should be treated with love
and dignity and respect. And youknow what, the secular worldview can't say
that they don't have that basis forhuman dignity and respect. It doesn't actually
make sense. Actually, in thesecular worldview, the strong should dominate the
weak if you're living it out practically. But if the Christian worldview says no,
(35:57):
every person, even the weak oneand the one that doesn't have power,
should be treated with dignity respect becausethey were created by God. And
so that's the first basis of thefoundation. The second is and that I
believe God created me on purpose andthat He designed me to live a way,
to operate my body, my relationshipsin a certain way. This is
the law and the ways He's designedme, not to control me, not
(36:21):
to limit my fund, but sothat I thrive. So God's laws,
God's ways are not to harm me, but they're so I can thrive.
So like when I eat a healthydiet, I exercise because it's good for
me. It's the same idea aboutGod's sexual ethic is for my goods so
that I will thrive. And Isubmit myself to God's ways because I know
(36:43):
he knows me better than I knowmyself, that he is good, and
that when I do it his wayit's for my good couldn't love you anymore
than I do right now in Ialready love you a lot. Thank you
very much. By the way,Brian head Welch. Next week, the
week after that, we'll figure itout. Ladies and gentlemen, Target Center,
Excel Energy Center. First step,Here comes corn. Maybe I can
(37:05):
I can introduce someone Dad, doit all right? Thank you Aaron Stagger
International and Stigger Dot Organ. I'mPaul Allen. We thank you Eric Nordquist
for producing Faith and Goal and Faithand Goal thirty eight. Keep your palms
to the sky, and thank youvery much for listening.
Must be high done a love stormwith Alan, I was worsted done and
sign. Here's the host of Faithand Goal, the voice of the Minnesota
(00:33):
Vikings, Paul Allen. Faith andGoal thirty eight is in the air.
And it once was said birds ofa feather flock together, and so will
pigs and swine. That that's anold English saying that is self explanatory.
In fact, somebody else told medecades ago it's impossible to soar with eagles
(00:57):
when flying with turkeys. The thecompany we keep is so important, and
that includes sometimes eliminating things you haveknown and with which have become overly comfortable.
Like if you mix with those whoconstantly fall back on say sexual innuindow,
(01:18):
eliminate it, ignore it, prayto God's will. He puts people
in your lives that are inspiring,yet also not afraid to admonish. Guided
by the Holy Spirit, the apostlePaul wrote to the Church of Colisse in
Colossians Chapter three, verse fifteen,Let the peace of Christ rule in your
(01:40):
hearts, since as members of onebody you were called to peace and be
thankful. Let the message of Christdwell among you richly as you teach and
admonish one another with all wisdom throughpsalms, hymns and songs from the spirits,
singing to God, with gratitude inyour heart. And whatever you do,
(02:00):
whether in word or deed, doit all in the name of the
Lord Jesus, giving thanks to Godthe Father through him. That's Colossians three,
beginning with verse fifteen. As youteach and admonish one another, believers
conversing, learning, questioning, andstrengthening one another. Now that's a squad.
(02:24):
Now that's my squad. So who'son your squad? Who's on my
squad? People who dwell in negativityand anxiety, potentially draining inspiration and happiness
and flying in the face of howyou believe God wants you to live.
And through all of that, thereare options. What are the options?
(02:50):
I mean, there are many options, But I feel that's the low key
admonish part of that passage that wejust shared. I pray to God's will
to guide my heart and decisions insituations I don't prefer. Sometimes he has
us speak up, sometimes he hasus move on. So there are a
(03:12):
couple options right there. And asthe passage teaches, whatever you do,
whether in word, or deed.Do it all in the name of the
Lord, giving thanks to God theFather. Through him, He'll guide you
through prayer, even if it's viaroots. You cannot see, hear,
touch, or smell. Right outof the gate, birds of a feather
(03:37):
flock together, and so will pigsand swine. The Bible also shares in
First Corinthians, Chapter fifteen, versethirty three, do not be deceived.
Bad company ruins good morals. Psalmone nineteen, verse sixty three. I
am a companion of all who fearyou, of those who keep your precepts.
(04:00):
That means people who are similar incharacter, background, or interest tend
to associate with each other. Anew bird with whom I fly is Aaron
Pierce with Steiger International. It isSteiger dot org if you'd like to learn
more about this powerful, locally basedministry with a worldly reach. Aaron,
(04:26):
his brother Ben, and father Davidstarted this ministry forty years ago and it's
a ministry that is both powerful andimpactful. They mobilize believers to reach young
people who would not walk into achurch, and they're so much more.
(04:46):
Faith and Goal thirty eight starts now. Faith and Goal Steiger dot org wonderful,
vast, multifaceted webs site with manyoptions for believers in God, Christ
and the Holy Spirit and for thoseon the fence. So, Aaron,
(05:09):
what are the messages conveyed for thosewho just check out the website Steiger dot
org. Well, Steiger is actuallya worldwide mission organization. We're in one
hundred and twenty cities around the world, and it's all about how can we
mobilize followers of Jesus to reach particularlyyoung people that wouldn't walk into a church.
(05:29):
Got a lot of people all overthe world today, young people in
particular, they have pretty negative viewsof God and what it means to follow
him and what the church is allabout. And so a lot of people
they just want nothing to do withit, and a lot of it's based
on misconceptions and maybe things that hurtthey've experienced in the past. So our
heart is how can we bring Jesusand who he really is to people that
wouldn't walk into a church today.So when you say like negative views,
(05:53):
I mean that they're to teach theirown whether they want to craft God to
the best of what their lives are, or you know, they're on the
fence. With things. What wouldsome of them be, Like, how
can an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God have anything to do
with anything evil on the earth.Yeah, I mean that's one of the
(06:14):
reasons. You know, in ourcountry, a lot of people have experienced
something to do with the church.They've grown up with it often and and
then often they walk away, theydeconstruct, and there's a lot of reasons
they do, and and one ofthem is that reason. It's that that's
the problem of evil, the problemof suffering. How could a good,
all powerful God allow suffering? Andand that's a that's a good question,
(06:35):
and it's a tough one, especiallyif you've gone through something really personal.
So a lot of the reasons thatpeople have for walking away from the church
or having a negative view, they'rethey're understandable reasons. There's good answers to
those questions. And we could diveinto that if you want to get into
it. But the reality is thatpeople have a lot of reasons why they've
walked away, and a lot ofthose they're they're the reasons that are understandable,
(06:59):
and it takes passion and creating asense of really understanding people in order
to process those things. Well,but our whole thing is how can we
equip people to have those conversations withpeople that have walked away or people that
are non religious and they don't thinkit's relevant to their lives. How can
we have those conversations in a loving, productive way, not an argument?
(07:21):
Okay, so so like in termsof suffering or how can it all loving,
all knowing, all powerful God permitsuffering? Did did? Don't you
feel like it legitimately goes back tothe Garden of Eden. It's like,
okay, well why did? Whywas sin permitted to come into the world
through Adam and Eve? With theanswer being well, Jesus became the new
(07:44):
atom or or the cross. Thecrucifixion is the ultimate suffering experienced by any
man in the history of the world. However, on the other side of
it, like there are so many, so many things in life, in
faith or whatever, there's the ultimatesuffering. And that's also something off which
(08:05):
you can work when you're suffering torecognize what went into that suffering and just
how tantamount and bad it was.But then there was the resurrection, which
was the beautiful side of the suffering. Yeah, well, I think you
think about pain and evil and suffering, and would why would God allow that?
And I think one of the thingsto understand is like God, he
(08:28):
designed us to be in relationship withhim. That that is like what you
find is we can't We are notsatisfied with material things, with accomplishments.
There's never enough. And the reasonis that we were created to have a
relationship with God. That is wherewe find our ultimate satisfaction. But a
relationship necessitates love, and love necessitatesfree will. I have to if I
(08:54):
have to, if I'm forced tolove you like a robot, is that
love? No, I have tohave the choice, and so I have
to choose to pursue you or towalk away, to obey, or to
deny. And so God created usto be in relationship with him, which
means he also created for us tochoose to love him or not. And
the consequences of walking away from Him, which is sin, is the brokeness
(09:18):
we experience in the world today.So recognizing that suffering is a result of
our choices, but that God didn'tjust leave us like that, right like
he didn't just say, well,you're screwed. He actually entered into our
suffering. He has compassionate for oursomething to the point where he entered into
(09:39):
our suffering in Jesus to pay theprice or something to offer us hope,
to offer us healing and reconciliation.So yeah, that whole challenge of suffering
is real, but it has todo with the whole idea of God of
love who creates an opportunity to choosehim or to walk away from him.
Amen. That was absolutely spectacular andbeautiful and just like seeing your dad on
(10:00):
the sideline before the Vikings Chargers gameholding your eleven year old son and your
father, David, you know,came up and said hello, and I
was chatting with some people and wedidn't get a chance to chat for a
long time. But in knowing thestory of how this ministry began four decades
ago in Amsterdam, it's a beautifulstory. Please share. Yeah. So
(10:22):
my parents were in Amsterdam and theyhad heart for people of Amsterdam, young
people particularly that wouldn't walk into achurch, which in a city like Amsterdam
that's pretty much everyone. And theysee these big, beautiful cathedrals and they're
just like they're essentially dead. They'remuseums and no one shows up on Sunday,
and so that's people's view of Godin a city like Amsterdam. And
(10:43):
so my dad was like, weneed these people need to know who the
real Jesus is. And so hewould go into the bars and night clubs
late at night with a small groupof people and they would share Jesus people
and befriend them, develop relationships,and then they would write the names of
everyone they met, and they'd goout in the forest and they'd pray all
night for these people. What happenedis God gave him a broken heart for
people. He really began to lovepeople. And then in that time of
(11:05):
really getting to know these people,he said, God, would you show
us a way that we can communicateyour love and your truth in a way
that people would actually understand. Andthis was in the eighties. Yeah,
this was the height of the punkrock movement that was like the social movement
of the time. So my dadfelt like God said start a punk band,
especially in Europe. Yeah, Amsterdamwas like the epicenter of the punk
rock movement. And so he startsa punk band and uses the stage to
(11:30):
share Jesus. He followed Paul's example. Paul said in first Corinthians two one
through five, that he preached Christand him crucified so that people will not
be convinced by human wisdom but byGod's power. Amen. And that's what
we need. We need God's powerand the powers and the message of the
Cross. So they shared the crossfrom stage in these clubs and bars,
and all of a sudden people startedto respond and people started to say,
(11:50):
Yeah, I want to know thisJesus you're talking about. And so they
started a Bible study on a bigred boat behind the central train station in
Amsterdam. And it was reaching thesepeople who would normally want nothing to do
with the church, and they werefinding Jesus, they were growing in their
walk with him, and it becamethis dynamic ministry reaching people from Amsterdam.
And the address of that boat wasSteiger, okay, And so that's where
(12:13):
the name of the organization came fromand eventually grew all over the world in
like the center of Amsterdam. Rightliterally behind the central train station in Amsterdam,
there's a river and that's where thiswas and it became this dynamic cup
and it's that's the environment I grewup in. Like my dad would take
me and my brother on tour withhim with the band. Once that started
to go other places and we'd belike in some nightclub in I don't know,
(12:35):
Poland or something, and he wouldbring us on stage and he would
say, these are my sons.I love them. There's nothing that I
wouldn't do for them. Everything thatI have is theirs, and if someone
tried to hurt them, I wouldprotect them with my life. And then
he would say, and that ishow God feels about you. And he
would equate a father's love for hischildren with God's love for them. And
I saw people in those environments withtears and their eyes praying to receive Jesus,
(13:00):
and it totally ruined me because Isaw that God was real, that
he wasn't just this nice religious thingwe did on Sunday, but that He
was real. Yeah. And andand music it can be so stimulating,
impactful and defective to the senses,whether it's in the body and the heart
or in the mind. And italso is a big part of the Bible.
I mean the book of Psalms,uh with with with King David singing
(13:24):
Psalms a majority of it. Uh. Then you you you something I read
earlier from the Book of Colossians,chapter three. Part of that passage was
you will sing hymns, you willsing psalms, and so therefore and and
the the song of I'm right afterpsalms and proverbs. Uh, the the
song of psalms or songs of songwas a song of Solomon. Yeah,
(13:46):
I mean that that's a big partof it too. So I love how
God put that natural tie in there, which also leads to a relationship you
guys have with Steiger Andsteiger dot Orgwith Brian head Welch, who is a
guitarist and a founding member of theband Coorn. Now, if people hear
(14:09):
the band Corn and they think whateverform of speed metal or whatever metal that
is, you know, they theyget given in a judgment casting world,
they'll be like, well, thatdoesn't work now, you can't possibly do
that, and look at these lyricsand all that. So Brian head Welch,
how did that happen? And andand and and and what what what
(14:30):
do you guys do with Steiger withhead Welch. Well, so, so
Brian's story is amazing. So youknow, like you said, he founded
he was part of the founding membersof Corn and they went from you know,
playing in nothing to you know,arenas around the world, and and
of course he went he was dealingwith drugs and all sorts of brokenness,
and through that he had someone sharedJesus with him. He had an encounter
(14:52):
with Jesus, left the band totallywalked away from it and started to walk
with Jesus and it transformed his life. But then he felt like God said,
I brought you up, so youcan go back in and bring hope.
And so through a series of events, he actually rejoined the band,
and at that time we met himand we began to build a friendship and
(15:15):
we end up coming together to shareJesus with his fans. And so what
we do is they'll do these bigshows and then after the show, we
invite people that want to come hereBrian's story and people want to hear his
story, right because he's the guitaristthe court, and so a bunch of
people come and he in a reallyloving natural way, shares what God did
in his life and how that Jesuswas the answer that he was looking for.
(15:41):
And then afterwards we just talk andpray with people, and we'll do
this after his shows. I've donethis in shows like in Japan and Tokyo.
I've done this in crazy festivals withhim in Germany, and I've done
it here in the Twin Cities aswell, and actually this weekend we're doing
it with him in Sacramento. Soit's just such a cool way where God
takes something that was broken and redeemsit to bring hope, and he his
(16:02):
life is so transformed by Jesus thathe wants other people to know it as
well. When when, hopefully sometime, can Brian head Welch join this podcast,
Faith and Gol. Well, I'msure we can make that happen.
Let's find out when they're playing inthe in the Cities and we can go
to a show and then we'll recordthe podcast. Okay, Now, now,
Aaron, you said something during duringthe course of describing, uh,
(16:26):
what what could be an effectual callingor some form of calling for Brian head
Welch, the lead guitarist for Korn, And you said, encounter with Jesus.
Now in people to whom I ministeror with whom I chat that that's
a common thread when people are like, well, well I've never you know,
how do I know I had anencounter. Sure, well, how
(16:48):
do you know you didn't? Youknow? It's I've never had this encounter.
It's it's obviously not you know,having like the Old Testament the Angel
of the Lord appeared. It's notlike that. I'm mean, it's how
would you describe it? Well?I think that the challenge, especially in
a country like ours where people arefamiliar to some extent with Christianity. What
Christianity is not a philosophy. Christianityis not like a lifestyle behavior lifestyle.
(17:14):
Christianity is a person. It's Jesus. And so what what it's about is
being in relationship with the person ofJesus and that that it's in that restored
relationship with Jesus that we find life. And so what we're talking about is
not do you believe the Jesus principlesor do you align your lifestyle in a
particular way. All those things aredownstream. What it is is you meet
(17:37):
Jesus and when you see the beautyof who he is and and and the
amazing thing that he did for youby dying on the cross for you,
that transforms your life. So it'snot about accepting a certain theological beliefs,
it's about meeting the person of Jesus, and he is he is right there.
He's right there. And it's aboutopening your heart and seeking him in.
(18:00):
He will find him. And soit's a paradigm shift sometimes, right,
it's not about philosophy or behavioral life. So it's about the person of
Jesus. Yeah, and and andyou know whether whether you know, well,
I believe in Christ or I believein God the Holy Spirit. I'm
I'm Catholic, I'm Lutheran, I'mMuslim, I'm a Jew, I'm a
Christian, I'm a I'm a Baptist, you know, a fundamental Baptist.
(18:22):
It's it's getting to heaven has nothingto do with tradition, and belief in
Jesus and love in Jesus a hasnothing to do with tradition. It has
nothing to do with experience. Itcomes down to what the Gospels of Jesus
Christ will teach you. And theBook of John would be a great place
to start. And there's so muchto unpack off what you said. So
the next time, because there willbe a next time. The way I
(18:45):
have you in here, you know, I'd like to go down that road
of talking about Okay, well,you know, I slash. We are
not here to give you an answer, but here is, here's the evidence
and the eye witnesses on top ofeyewitnesses on top of eyewitnesses with corroborating reports
than epistles, and then tying themto the prophecy of the Old Testament.
(19:10):
And it's no, we don't havethe answer. Only God has the answer,
but we have the hope, andand it's based on evidence and eyewitnesses.
Now it's Steiger dot org, partof part of just a fascinating,
wonderful, wonderful, deeply rooted website. I do encourage believers and non believers
to go to stiger dot org andjust see everything they offer, including hope
(19:34):
for global youth culture. And youknow, it's it's it's beautiful that forty
years ago God had your family beginthis in Amsterdam, because that's in the
East, and we're in the Westerncivilization. And I would imagine when you
get to the East, when youget to Europe and different parts of that
(19:55):
of that of the world, it'smarkedly more difficult to convey things than it
is in the West. Is thatfair? Yeah? I mean the post
Christian culture that Europe is it canbe tough, right. It's actually interesting
because Europe is one of these placesthat's further along than the US. And
so a lot of people, alot of young people in Europe, they
(20:15):
didn't reject Christianity. They actually knownothing about it because it was their grandparents
that rejected it. And so here'sthe reality that most people are drawn to
something spiritual. They want something transcendent. The most of us don't believe that
this world is nothing more than thematerial things. You can see that all
(20:37):
of life is about is pursue pleasure, avoid playing, and eventually you're gonna
be dead and there's nothing else toit. Most of us say, no,
there's gotta be something more. Mostof us are drawn to something spiritual,
and so what you find is inthe absence of that, people will
seek it out. And so alot of young Europeans are open to spirituality,
and actually a lot of young Americanstoo. And so the problem is
(20:59):
that a lot of it has gottenuh. The baggage of some institutional religion
has played into it, and it'screated baggage that people reject. But there's
a hunger for something transcendent, andI think it's that's the place to connect
with people. Well, and andand really the the significant doubting and second
guessing really didn't begin until the sixteenhundreds with with Descartes, and then then
(21:23):
then GALILEI and and and excuse me, Galileo, and and then Isaac Newton
and and then it just continued tomorph. And people, I've learned or
I believe what, would either morphGod into the God that was convenient for
them, which is wrong, orthey would they would start to second guess
(21:45):
and doubt because of the way theworld was going in the first place,
but the way some philosophies were beingpresented to a group that just would not
take time to do the further researchto direct Okay, well, there is
all this evidence and and there wereall these eyewitnesses, and you know,
and then we have the Cross andthe resurrection and and and so on,
(22:08):
and and you know it. Thecrafting God to the convenience of oneself is
so in vogue in this day andage. Yeah. Again, it's because
I think we want something transcendent,but we want it in our own image,
right Like I want ultimately, Iwant my spiritual you know, reality,
(22:30):
but I don't want to be conformedor constrained by that. And and
so, yeah, there is thereis a lot of that. You know,
it's interesting because you're kind of speakingof, like, you know,
where things went when when these thescientific revolution and all of that. It's
interesting because science and faith are notopposed to each other. In fact,
a lot of the the those thatthat pioneered scientific discoveries were were influenced by
(22:52):
their belief in God. They believethat the world is orderly, that it
could be understood, and it wasthat that caused them to really explore nature
to underst stand it. And sothere's this false idea out there that science
and God are that they don't gotogether, and they do. And then
and then in order to believe youhave to in God, you have to
throw your brain out and and justkind of ignore all the facts. That's
(23:15):
simply not true. And in fact, a careful study of the facts,
not just you know, biblical facts, but like how this world is ordered,
how fine tuned it is, thefact that science shows that there was
an origin to the universe, allthese facts, to me, the most
logical explanation for this world as weexperience it is God. And so I
(23:36):
it's actually my brain, my rationalthinking that can lead me to that belief.
Now, can I conclusively prove thatGod exists, No, But neither
can I conclusively prove that he doesnot. So faith is required in either
either direction. If I if I'man atheist, that's a faith statement as
well. So we've got to lookat the evidence and then of course,
(23:59):
you know, experience the reality ofGod's presence of my life. But yeah,
I think that's one of the challengesthat we face today is that people
believe that if I'm going to bein a person of faith, then I
turn my brain off. It's simplynot well well. And also you bring
up the word atheist, and youknow, if there happens to be a
conversation with an atheist, and I'vehad several, it's you know, when
I ask have you read the Bible? I mean, have you, like,
(24:23):
what part of the Gospels, orwhat part of Adam and Eve through
Genesis and Noah and Enoch and everyI mean, what part is pulling you
from this? And to a man, the majority of them have barely read
any of it. And they'll layon, oh, yeah, sure,
so Lazarus was dead and then hecame back to life. Oh, sure,
(24:45):
there was water, and then allof a sudden there was wine.
Sure, So they'll get hung upon the supernatural, which I absolutely believe.
And by the way, God issupernatural and the spirit of God is
supernatural. So again, do Ior we have the answer? But do
we have hope with evidence and tonsof eyewitnesses, yes, yeah, exactly,
(25:06):
way, yeah, of course.And and you know, one of
the one of the reasons some peoplehave a problem with the with things they
see in the Bibles because they don'thave a category for the supernatural, and
so everything has to play be explainedin a naturalistic way. But even that
breaks down, right because like,how did how did nothing come? How
did something come from nothing? Howdid the the all of these these things
form into this fine tune life realitythat we experienced that is supernatural onto itself.
(25:32):
And so yeah again, but II don't debates and arguments doesn't change
people's hearts, you know, andGod does right exactly, And so I
don't like to approach people that seethe world differently than I do in an
antagonistic way. I think what Ihave, what I believe about Jesus,
I want them to know, becauseI think it's for their good and I
want them to thrive and I wantthem to have all that God has for
(25:52):
them. But I don't want toapproach them as the enemy because I don't
see them as the enemy. Well, oh great, And it's from an
antagonizing or confrontational standpoint, I'm inlockstep with you on that. I'm just
saying, if you don't have moreexamples than water can't turn to wine.
The conversation's done. I mean,it's where is it going to go from
there? Yeah? I'm going tobe the last to be like, oh
(26:15):
you're an atheist, Okay, I'llpray for you and then just walk away.
So, I mean, I Icrave those conversations, if only to
learn and and and see what's what'sin that playbook? And I've just yet
to really find something deeply rooted,at least in my life now. At
Steiger dot org. Uh, there'sa part called Jesus in Secular World series.
(26:41):
What uh? What is that?And and obviously secular world would be
the world in which we live now. But is there anything that you can
share about that? Yeah? Imean that's just a resource for those that
are like man I want to beequipped to know how to live in this
world, to share Jesus in aworld that is secular, that have that
don't believe. The basic idea isthat institutional religion is not relevant to my
(27:03):
life. That faith is private andyou can believe whatever you want, so
long as you don't share that withother people. And everyone's kind of bought
into a relativistic morality, like whateveryou want to believe is cool. It's
like ice cream plate flavors. Youhave your favorite, I have mine,
but you can't really say one isbetter than the other. And so that's
the world that we're in. That'sthe kind of the air we breathe.
And so how do you live forJesus? How do you share Jesus in
(27:26):
that context? This is a videoseries in a book that you can pick
up and it'll help you go throughthat process. Steiger dot org if you
would like to learn more about that. Also Hope for Global Youth Culture wonderful,
wonderful section on that. And Aaronalso has a book that recently came
out and it's called Not Beyond Reach. What's the book about? Yeah,
(27:48):
the subtitles called how to Share Jesuswith the young, the deconstructed, and
the non religious. So how dowe reach people who are far from God,
especially those in our lives that youknow, have walked away and have
you know, things that stand inthe way of them encountering Jesus. And
so it's a guide how to guideto share Jesus with people in your life
that you would think wouldn't want anythingto do with it. And yeah,
(28:10):
it goes back to some of theconversations we're already having how to a lot
of times, we think. Sohere's a couple of the challenges. Right,
people are searching for connection relationships likewe are hardwired for that and we
and yet we live in a culturetoday there's lonelier than ever before. Loneliness
is like the issue of our day. And so one of the great opportunities
(28:32):
for us as followers of Jesus isto intentionally pursue people for a relationship.
And so, do you mean lonelyas in like by yourself or the loneliness
that is, Okay, I'm makinggood cash jobs, are cool family kids,
but I just feel like I lackpurpose. Oh yeah, yes,
and yes, so I think lonelinessis a big issue in our culture.
Actually, the US General a surgeonback in May said that the one of
(28:57):
the greatest health crisises of our dayis loneliness. And a lot of that
has to do with technology, whichis, you know, we're all just
digitally superficially connected, but we're not. And you know, digital communication tends
to be superficial, it tends tobe filtered reality, and so I'm not
connecting in a meaningful way. That'spart of it. We're so busy,
(29:19):
so distracted. That's a big partof But the other part of it is
our worldview. We have bought intoa secular, humanistic worldview that says I
am at the center and that myidentity, my purpose, and morality is
self defined. And so that naturallyleads to loneliness. It naturally leads to
(29:40):
anxiety because if if there is noanchor for you to hold onto in the
storm other than yourself, you're gonnabe anxious. If there's no where to
turn for truth, then you're gonnabe confused. And if it's only and
always about me, you're gonna endup lonely. So loneliness is the outworking
(30:00):
our well what we believe today,and that's the biggest issue. Okay,
now, now a couple more herewith Aaron peer. Stigger dot org is
the website again Bible study for thenon religious, which segues beautifully off what
you just said about that book.The book is called Not Beyond Reach,
written by Aaron Pearce Conversing with ThoseFar from God. I mean it's I
(30:22):
come across that a fair amount,not only thinking about it myself, praying
about it myself with God's will toguide me to proper roots to handling certain
things. But that's a question thatI've either heard or gotten a fair amount.
Is is like organically sharing the Gospelwith believers or those who are far
(30:42):
from God, and you know,not being opportunistic with it, but organically
sharing a what the Bible teaches youto do and be doing it properly so
you're not beat the Bible over thehead Christian guy, which nobody wants to
deal with. Yeah. I thinkone of the things that we need today
is to know how to engage ineffective spiritual conversations as a bridge to the
(31:04):
Gospel. And like we said,people are open to spirituality, and if
you think about it, everything wedeal with in life has spiritual implications,
and you're able to have assuming it'sbased on a genuine love for people,
and it's a relationship, you're ableto draw out the spiritual implications of everyday
life. Think about it like this. We all desire relationships, right,
(31:26):
And if I ask you what's themost important thing in your life, You're
not going to say your career.You're not going to say some material thing
your own. You're going to talkabout relationships. You're going to talk about
your family, right, your daughter, your son, You're going to talk
about those relationships. It's because wewere designed for relationship. But then I
also know, because you're a human, that, like me, you have
broken relationships. There's conflict, there'sdisappointment, there's strife, there's drama and
(31:51):
so and I can share my ownexperience with that might even the healthiest families
can't escape drama. And I canask you, why is it? Why
is it though we all desire deeprelationship, why is it none of us
can get away from the brokenness?What is it? Fundamentally that is the
problem. And it leads me tothe fundamental spiritual truth that our relationships are
(32:12):
broken because of sin, and thatwe all need forgiveness, healing, reconciliation.
That is a core need that wehave and that no human can do
that for us. We need somethingelse, We need something perfect, and
that is what Jesus did for us. And so I'm now taking this beautiful
spiritual conversation about relationships and my familyand the brokenness in my own family and
(32:37):
showing how Jesus meets that greatest feltneed of reconciliation, of healing, of
restoration. That's what it's like tohave a spiritual conversation. Rather than me
just pounding a gospel script, Ican use something like relationships to share Jesus
in a relevant way. Man,Not only are you loquacious, but you're
very eloquent with your speech and witha direct approach, just very solt with
(33:00):
the answers, which which I absolutelylove. Now in closing, there's another
section at stagger dot org that Ithat I did not get into because I
wanted to hear you explain it.It's called sexuality in the secular age.
What is that? Well, it'sprobably the thing that creates the most tension
(33:21):
today in terms of people their viewof Christianity and how we view sexual ethics.
And I think The challenge here isthat a lot of people have a
false idea about the Christian view ofsexuality, and they can it can get
pretty tense. And I think thechallenge here is that we need to reframe
this. When I have conversation withpeople about sexuality and my views on it,
(33:43):
I often ask them, you know, if you really want to understand
my view on sexuality, you reallyneed to understand it in context. And
then I and if and I askedthem for permission to share that, And
what I say, is this thecontext is this? You ask them for
permission to share that? Yeah?Love that, Because here's the thing.
We we live in a world thisyou know, hyper polarized, angry political
world, and everyone's mad at eachother and and we can't have real honest
(34:07):
conversations, right, And so partof it is like by just breaking down
the walls and saying like, canI just share my perspective? Can I
just give you context of why Ibelieve tends to kind of like okay,
yeah, let me hear what youhave to say. Yeah, And so
that that's one thing, But thenI say, you know, here's here's
my context. Well, because theperson with whom you're chatting. Sorry to
cut you off. I mean alot, a lot of what I have
(34:30):
I've never had those, rarely havethose conversations. But it's from what I've
seen, read and or learned,is the person on the other side,
for whatever the the gender identity orwhatever approach they're taking it generally is okay,
I'm this, let me guess I'mgoing to hell. Yeah. Yeah,
So you're working from that, right, and and then there's all sorts
(34:51):
of false ideas they have a lotof people have a legalistic view of Christianity,
which means they believe to come toJesus, I have to change the
way I live first, or Ihave to come in a certain way,
and that's not how it is right. Jesus accepts you as you are,
and then he will transform you asyou walk with him. But you don't
have to change to come to him. And that's one lie we have to
believe. The other lie we haveto believe is that if for me to
(35:14):
love you, I have to affirmeverything about you, or if I don't
affirm everything about you, I hateyou, which is a lie, right,
And so one of the ways tochallenge is that is to show this
is I believe that every person,regardless of how they lived their life,
has infinite value. And I believethat because they were created by God and
that he created them unique, thathe loves them, he knows them,
(35:36):
and that that is why anyone hasinfinite value and should be treated with love
and dignity and respect. And youknow what, the secular worldview can't say
that they don't have that basis forhuman dignity and respect. It doesn't actually
make sense. Actually, in thesecular worldview, the strong should dominate the
weak if you're living it out practically. But if the Christian worldview says no,
(35:57):
every person, even the weak oneand the one that doesn't have power,
should be treated with dignity respect becausethey were created by God. And
so that's the first basis of thefoundation. The second is and that I
believe God created me on purpose andthat He designed me to live a way,
to operate my body, my relationshipsin a certain way. This is
the law and the ways He's designedme, not to control me, not
(36:21):
to limit my fund, but sothat I thrive. So God's laws,
God's ways are not to harm me, but they're so I can thrive.
So like when I eat a healthydiet, I exercise because it's good for
me. It's the same idea aboutGod's sexual ethic is for my goods so
that I will thrive. And Isubmit myself to God's ways because I know
(36:43):
he knows me better than I knowmyself, that he is good, and
that when I do it his wayit's for my good couldn't love you anymore
than I do right now in Ialready love you a lot. Thank you
very much. By the way,Brian head Welch. Next week, the
week after that, we'll figure itout. Ladies and gentlemen, Target Center,
Excel Energy Center. First step,Here comes corn. Maybe I can
(37:05):
I can introduce someone Dad, doit all right? Thank you Aaron Stagger
International and Stigger Dot Organ. I'mPaul Allen. We thank you Eric Nordquist
for producing Faith and Goal and Faithand Goal thirty eight. Keep your palms
to the sky, and thank youvery much for listening.
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