Life Is Too Short For Proper Spacing

Do you want more plants than you technically have room for? We're sharing where you can bend the rules a bit and ignore the plant tag. Featured shrub: Stonehenge yew.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Coming to you from Studio A here at proven Winns
Color Choice Shrubs. It's time for the Gardening Simplified Show
with Stacy Hervella, me, Rick weisst and our engineer and
producer Adrianna Robinson. Well, Stacy, let's tap on the brakes
a little. Somebody has to say it is life too
short for spacing plants? I mean plants at the greenhouse

(00:25):
or the garden center. When you start shopping this spring,
it's like going to the buffet in Las Vegas. Your
eyes tend to be bigger than your stomach. Or when
I take my grandson to the store and I say, wow,
you can have a little treat, it's impossible for him
to decide. There's so many choices. It's unreally usually ends

(00:47):
up with two or three trees.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Well, you know, this idea that life is too short
for proper spacing is something that I have said many
times myself to friends and gardening colleagues. And I have
softened that stance a bit, which we will get to,
but it really comes from so. I went to horticulture
school at the New York Botanical Garden School of Professional Horticulture,

(01:12):
and one of my first days on our rotations where
you work in all of the different areas of the gardens.
It was spring and the crew leader dropped me off
at this giant, massive, beautiful urn and a couple flats
of pansies and was like, okay, we'll be back to
pick you up in like forty five minutes. And I
was like, okay, cool. And so you know, I'm looking

(01:33):
at the pansies and they have a little tag in
them and it says like, you know, space eight to
ten inches apart or whatever. So I'm like okay. So,
you know, they drop me off with like three flats,
and I take this urn and I plant like eight
pansies in it, following this, you know, this instruction on
the tag. And when she came back to get me

(01:54):
after I had done this, she was like what is that?
And I'm like, following the spacing instructions and she goes, no, no, no,
no no, and she's like, this is how you do it,
and she starts taking the pansies out and she's squishing,
gently squishing the root balls and just packing them in there.
And you know, that's when I realized that spacing is

(02:15):
primarily a suggestion. There are certainly consequences to ignoring spacing
not so much from an annual perspective, and certainly not
from a pansy perspective. But overall, it is just a suggestion,
and there are plenty of times where you, as a gardener,
are free to completely disregard that in favor of a

(02:37):
better display.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Absolutely, and when it comes to annuals, throw the spacing
out the window.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Oh for sure. The spacing on those things is ridiculous.
You'd think that they would decrease it so people would
plant more and they'd sell more. But you know, especially
back in the days of the cell pause, Yeah, you know,
it was like twelve inches. And I remember, you know,
being a landscaper back then, and you know, the trowel
with the markers on it, and I'm like, this looks terrible,
But well, I followed the instruction, so it must be right.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
I never follow spacing instructions when it comes to annuals.
Thus my limerick for this week, Every plant's my favorite.
I'm embracing so many to choose from I'm pacing They're
so fabulous I can't pick. So I wrote this lima
rick to announce I'm giving up spacing. You know, plant
spacing if you think about it. There are calculators online

(03:28):
and all sorts of stuff on how to figure out
plant spacing. Generally, I've just done the math in my head.
For example, if you have a plant that at maturity
is four foot wide, putting it next to a plant
at maturity that's three foot wide, just add four plus three,
divide by two, which is three and a half, and

(03:51):
put the plants center to center three and a half
feet apart. That's how I've WoT.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
It's basically that simple, and I think that maybe the
key that's missing for a lot of people is the
I don't know or don't realize that the spacing recommendation
is based on the predicted width of the plant. Yes,
and that's another aspect of why it is so subjective.
Let me ask you this. Are you a do you

(04:16):
like your plants to touch or do you like your
plants not to touch?

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Well? I like I like them to touch. But I
am a person who will not bring a tape measure
out into the landscape. I like to plant in odd
numbers and I don't want it to look like I
measured it.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Sure right, right? A lot of people don't want their
plants to touch, which, honestly, more power to you. It
seems crazy to me because I like my garden to
look like a garden, like a jungle like with all
the plants, So I need my plants to touch, so
I always ignore spacing or go with smaller spacing. But
there's plenty of people out there who don't like the

(04:52):
look of a full garden and they prefer the space
and everything kind of you know, it's just a different approach.
It's perfectly valid for those of you are my plants
can't touch type out there, But that plays a big
role into how you decide you're going to space.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, or let me throw a monkey wrench into it.
Spacing in my mind, is more important in the shade
than it is in the sun. In the sun you
get plenty of sunlight, air movement, and so disease less
of a problem. In the shade, you want to have
proper spacing. Just the theory on my part, Yeah, for sure.
Of course, there's all other types of different issues too.

(05:30):
Some plants are allellopathic and I'm looking here, I had
written down here sunflowers, Nepetta, morning glories, lantana, And of
course you've got the notorious mob boss of the group
black walnut. But some plants are you know, they kind
of push others.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Out right, And you know, there's a lot of research
nowadays it says that a lot of the beliefs around
allellopathy are not wrong but over exaggerated. And you know,
what I've read in that case is that it's not
so much like but even with black walnut, except for
the very sensitive plants. So do not try to plant
tomato anywhere near in the vicinity of a black walnut.

(06:10):
But it's primarily the branches, leaves in fruit that fall
that cause the issue. It's not just some sort of
you know, force field coming out around the roots or
anything like that. So in that case, you know, my
neighbor across the street has a massive black walnut, So
if squirrels are coming over and depositing you know, walnuts
in my yard, then I can't space around that.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Well, I tell you what, Speaking of squirrels as it
relates to plant spacing, if you want to throw cashew
to the wind, what you do is you go vertical. Yes, absolutely,
just like they did in Top Gun. Right, and some
people refer to it as bio intensive planting. Using vines
going vertical. One of my favorite plants and tight spots

(06:55):
are clematis if you've got a good sunny spot. Others
you could use, of course, rise up Lilac days. I
was amazed at how well that did in my garden
this year, kind of elevating above the group flirty girl
false hydrangea in a shady area. And of course I've
always talked about exclamation points, so you take rows of

(07:17):
share in the pillar series or skybox Japanese holly or
fine line buckthorn, or I got to throw in a
grass stacy and annual grass like vertigo. You know, these
add excitement, They can stand alone if you wish to
kind of rise above the others and kind of give
you a permission to pack it in a little definitely.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
And you know, another aspect of that, I would say
is that you can get away with a lot less
space in between plants if you were willing to do
some work. And you know, this is a question that
we can all ask ourselves is how much work do
I want to do? What type of work do I
want to do? And one great example of that would
be Espelier. So Espelier is you know when you see

(08:01):
usually a shrubs. Some comes it's a small tree trained
up against a fence, and sometimes it can be very
meticulous where they've tried to create like a Belgian fence,
where branches are criss crossing and making a diamond pattern.
Or it's just a matter of pruning a shrub so
that all of its growth that would come outward or
backward is pruned off and it only goes left and right.

(08:21):
And so I have a winter honeysuckle nisra a fragrant tissima,
which is one of the first things to bloom. Smells amazing.
It smells like fruit loop cereal, and it's a huge plant.
I mean, these things get to be ten feet tall
and ten feet wide. But my husband loves to prune
and has taken it upon himself to espalier this winter

(08:42):
honeysuckle next to our fence, so it takes up just
a fraction of the space. He loves pruning it. So
if you are someone who loves to prune, you can,
you know, use these little tips and tricks and take
on that responsibility. If you're not someone who likes to prune,
then you're probably not going to do that.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
So when we say life is too short for spacing.
We to a degree say it tongue in cheek.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
To a degree.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yes, But you know, in spring, when I'm out there
in the vegetable garden and I've got a packet of
bean seeds or carrot seeds, I'm notorious for getting halfway
down the road and the row and the seeds are gone.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, I'm the same. You know, I've been roached vegetable
gardening for my entire adult life, and I still distrust
the spacing in spring. It's just impossible to believe, you know.
And so like this year, I planted way too many
tomatoes in my space. I had an amazing harvest, but
by the time they all grew it in, it was
like playing a game of twister to get out there

(09:37):
and try to harvest everything and find these one spots
where you could step that weren't covered by tomato plants.
But you know what, it's just enthusiasm. It's enthusiasm for
what we do well.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Enthusiasm. But also if you tighten up the spacing, I
think it makes watering easier. You always want to pack
in more plants, I know, Stacey, you're like me. If
you walk through a greenhouse or a garden center. You
can be inspired and like, h I'd like that plant,
and next thing you know, you're walking around in your

(10:10):
yard with the plant in one hand the shovel in
the other, looking for a place to put it.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah. I have definitely been there, yes, And then you
know you're like, oh, well this container could use another plant,
so you just wedge it on in there and then
you know. But it's a good way to learn. You
do learn a lot by pushing those boundaries. I will
definitely say that, oh hey, quick, before we take a break,
I have to tell everybody that next Friday, February twenty first,

(10:36):
here on our YouTube channel, we are going to be
doing our first ever YouTube live and we're going to
be telling everybody about all of the new shrubs for
twenty twenty five. So it is a public peak at
everything that's going to be new. It's going to be
super great. I'm going to be there. Natalie Christina Crimson
from our YouTube channel are also participating. So if you've

(10:56):
got spring fever, you're dying for a little break, some flour,
some greenery, please please join us here on YouTube Friday,
February twenty first at twelve Eastern at time. We hope
you'll see you there.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
Well, we'll see how Stacey ties it in plants on Trials.
Coming up next here on the Gardening Simplified.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Show, beautify your home and community with proven Winner's Color
Choice Shrubs with over three hundred and twenty five unique
varieties to choose from. There's a flowering shrub or evergreen
for every taste and every space. Just look for the
distinctive white container your local garden center or learn more

(11:35):
at proven Winner's Color Choice dot com. Greeting's gardening friends,
and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show, where the
order of the day is plant spacing, an issue in
gardening that has tripped up many people. I've certainly had
to hold a lot of hands as people have worked
through how to space things and what to do with

(11:56):
a range when you have a range of spacing, which
I'll talk about the next segment a bit. But I
did want to say, you know, I have softened, as
I said in segment one, my stance a little bit
on life is too short for proper spacing, and you know,
sometimes it isn't sometimes it is. But like last year,
right I bought some basil. We were in Chicago. We

(12:18):
wanted to have a picnic, and instead of just buying
you know, cut basil, I bought a basil plant and
I said, okay, I'll just you know, go home and
plant it, which I did, but all my containers are
already full at that point. So I had three massive containers,
like big, giant, twenty four inch containers that weren't full.
So I says, okay, I'll just plant the basil in here.

(12:39):
It's fine. I had the best darn basil harvest of
my entire life. Adrian is like exclaiming because she saw
it when she came to film at my house. I
mean they were shrubs. They were like three feet tall
and wide. That's fantastic because I did give that extra
space because normally I was like jamming it into these
pretty little decorative containers on my patio, which is fine,

(13:00):
but you know, that's when I really realized, if you
want your basil to produce, you got to give it
some room. But that's where the learning comes in.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Right, Like I call it basil instincts.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
Well, I have that instinct. Now I will definitely be
continuing to do that. And another place where of course,
you don't really want to go into messing with the
spacing too too much. Is trees and shrubs correct, And
that's for a couple of reasons. Number one is that
trees and shrubs tend to be a little bit more
expensive than annuals and even perennials, So you don't want

(13:32):
to make a mistake that you later have to correct
and risk the investment that you've made in not just
purchasing the plant, but in time and effort to plant it. Also, overall,
a lot of trees and shrubs aren't super amenable to
pruning for size, especially with so like in my garden,
I talk a lot about my silfium, which is self

(13:52):
sown abundantly, and sometimes I do leave those plants to go,
and if those selfium plants start getting a little bit
too wide, I just go out there and I straight
up ripoff entire stocks, you know, to kind of to
try to narrow it down and take up less space.
You don't really want to do that. Well, first, Philly,
you can't do that with a woody plant, and you
don't necessarily want to do it. Some woody plants are
not very amenable to that kind of pruning to control

(14:14):
their width, and so you don't have that option, you know,
like hostas or another plant that they're taking up too
much space, they have too much leaves. You just go
out there and take off some stems.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
Right, get shrubs, which yeah, I've done that. And with shrubs,
the problem is the plant will look like it got
a bad hair.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yes it will, and you no one wants that. No
one wants that. And then you know the other thing,
of course, is that shrubs and trees are plants that
we tend to plant for the future, for the long term.
So it really pays to think far off into the future.
Even though, like we were talking about in our Dwarf
Helperdos Spruce rant a couple episodes ago, it can be
very hard to believe that this, you know, cute little

(14:54):
shrub that you're holding in your hands is going to
reach some sort of epic proportion. But it will, and
you you need to trust those when you are investing
again time and money into these more permanent plants. Now,
that doesn't mean you can't fudget a bit here and there.
Like I was saying with the Espalier, it does to
some extent depend on how much work you are willing

(15:16):
to do. And I actually happen to really enjoy going
out there and ripping out some stems of my sylphium
and getting the garden a little bit refined. And my
husband happens to really enjoy espaluing it and doing that
pruning once a month or whatever that is. So again,
this is really a question of how much effort or
how much work are you willing to take on and
the type of work that it is, and if you

(15:38):
enjoy that. But you know, one of the issues I
think with spacing, the reason that so many of us
want to, you know, kind of minimize how much space
we give our plants is because we just want more
plants in the ground, you know. And I don't have
a huge yard. And yeah, as you said, my eyes
are bigger than my garden. My dreams or a bigger than

(16:00):
my garden as well, and so sometimes yeah, I do
fudge things to try to get more there. And also
because I just love that full, lush look.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
And that's why I say, you got to act like
Tom Cruise in Top Gun, and you gotta go vertical sometimes.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Right, And one way that you can do that is
by choosing fastigit plants, and you've probably heard us use
that word here and there. Basically, all it means, it's
a fancy word, it is a Latin word, but from
a horticultural perspective, all it means is that a plant
naturally grows with a narrow columnar habit, so instead of

(16:36):
being a big, wide, spreading tree, it's just a tidy,
little column. And that word fastigit comes from the Latin
for high or lofty these plants, a fastigit plant doesn't
necessarily have to be very tall, but it will be
very narrow. One of the best examples of this is
the fastigient English oak Quercus rober fastigiata. Beautiful plant, and

(17:00):
for some reason here in the US, by and large,
it is that fastigiit version. It's far far more popular
than the big, full, massive tree version. But there's lots
of choices among shrubs as well. So you might be
familiar with our pillar roses of sharon like purple pillar,
white pillar, red pillar, glowstick, and skybox Japanese holly, fine
line ramness. We have this new yard line viburnum, which

(17:23):
is an evergreen for milder climates, and today's plant on trial.
Stonehenge U is also a fastigit plant.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Didn't we introduce people to that plant in our winter
garden walk?

Speaker 2 (17:36):
We did, which might be one of the reasons why
it was on my mind, because as you can see,
we do have many others. Ooh, another one that I
forgot to mention. One that you love skinny fit gink o.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yes, love it.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
That's a very small, narrow ginko. Not too many on
the market yet, but so I'll tell you if you
see one, snatch it up. But there will be more
coming on the market in the coming seasons. So if
there's some kind of plant that you really really want
and you don't have space for it, like an oak
or gang goo, there very often are these fastigial alternatives

(18:06):
that just take up a fraction of the space. You know,
a fastigit you know, tree or shrub for example. Taking
this taxis stonehanji reaches two to four feet wide. That's
pretty darn narrow. That is not a lot. I mean,
you know, I think my summarific hibiscus take up more
space sure than that. But if you consider you or

(18:28):
taxes on the whole. Even though here in the US
we kind of think of them as very kind of
boring suburban plants that are just planted as like a
front yard hedge show.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, but I think your timing on this is perfect, Stacy.
I mean, everyone at this time of the year is
thinking about taxes, right.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
That's right. I was going to say this for April fifteenth,
but you.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
And I answer plant questions I wrote down here. An
accountant is someone who solves a problem you didn't know
you had in a way you don't understand.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
That's what accountants do.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
We problem and sometimes people don't understand that too. But yeah,
so in the like in England, you will see taxes
that you would not even recognize because they get to
be massive, massive trees, and yeah, we just don't. They
just don't do that here. We don't grow them that way.
And of course we don't have thousands of years of history,

(19:20):
but there you can find all over the UK and
Ireland use that are thousands of years old, literally known
to be two or three or four thousand years old.
One of the oldest, the fourteen gold U, has a
trunk circumference, or had at one point. It's now kind
of hollowed out fifty two feet wow. And uh use

(19:40):
are known to reach heights of sixty five feet or taller.
So you can really see how a plant like Stonehenge,
you at just two to four feet tall and wide,
give you an opportunity to kind of get some of
that look that history, but with using just a small,
small fraction of the space. And a great thing about

(20:00):
fastigit plants as well is that they don't need pruning,
you know, because they aren't growing wide, they're just growing
with a stove pipe kind of shape. You really don't
need to prune them. Now. You can height prune them
if you wish, it is usually best to let them go,
but if you start them when they're young and you're
not cutting into any really thick wood, you can easily

(20:21):
maintain a lower height as well on a fastigit plant.
But like Rick said, you can see Stonehenge in the
winter landscape in our most recent winter garden tour, and
I think that that where that plant is planted in
our gardens really kind of shows how this plant can
be used and how useful and beautiful it is.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
And at this time of the year, in the dead
of winter, we'll take any green we can.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Get, yes, even from a taxis even. I mean, I
have to say I have my own ideas about taxes
because I grew up with taxis outside my yard, growing
up like it was there, you know, it was a
newer development. And I think that so many contractors developers
are just like, hey, we need something to put in coverage.

(21:07):
We don't know if it's sun or shade. We're not
going to bother finding out because you do take full
sun to full shade. And that's pretty great characteristic.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
Tell me about it, Stacey. I come from the garden
center industry. We would unload semi loads of taxes balden
bur lap. Yeah, the soil around the roots usually were
solid clay. You lift those things all day long. You
start to think about death and taxes all that.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yes, aren't you glad that's not a thing anymore?

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Oh oh my.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
And they can take pretty much any soil as well.
So another thing that's great for contractors to, you know,
just throw in front of these developments. Poor soil, no problem.
As long as it's well drained. They don't mind sand.
One thing that's that taxes in general do mind though,
that you should be aware of if you're thinking about
planting Stonehenge Texas. They are not derresistant. And it's bizarre

(21:59):
because tax is one of the most toxic plants. And
you know, I don't like to freak people out talking
about toxic plants, but it's so wild to me that
so many people are so concerned and yet this completely
ubiquitous plan, at least through the Midwest everywhere, extremely toxic
to humans and pets. The deer will eat it like
there's no tomorrow, like it's candy. It's like a compulsion

(22:21):
with them. I don't know how that works, but anyway,
I would have to say, if you grew up like me,
with your mother constantly warning you not to touch the
red berries on the green shrubs in the front of
the house, then you know exactly what I'm talking about.
But again, Sonehenge, you is a great plant if you
live in USCA zones four through seven, not super heat tolerant,

(22:43):
have shade, and are looking for a space saving evergreen.
If that's not what you're looking for, I will list
the rest of the fastigit shrubs and trees that I
have discussed in our show notes at Gardeningsimplified on air
dot Com. We're gonna take a little break. When we
come back, we're opening up the garden. Mailed eggs of police.
Stay tuned at Proven Winner's Color Choice Shrubs. We know

(23:09):
that a better landscape starts with a better shrub. Our
team of experts tests and evaluates all of our flowering
shrubs in evergreens for eight to ten years to ensure
they outperform what's already on the market. For easycare, reliable,
beautiful shrubs. To accentuate your home and express your personal style,
look for Proven Winner's Shrubs in the distinctive white container

(23:29):
at your local garden center, or learn more at proven
Winner's Color Choice dot com. Greetings gardening friends, and welcome
back to the Gardening Simplified Show. It's our favorite time
of the show where we get to answer your gardening questions.
But before we do dive into what we've got this week,
I wanted to briefly talk a bit about the spacing

(23:49):
on the plant tag. And like I said earlier, the
spacing that's recommended at least speaking about Proven Menner's Color
Choice Shrubs is based on the width of the plant. So, however,
why the plant gets from one end to the other
is how we're going to recommend that you space them,
and very often both the width and the space, the
width and the spacing will always be the same. We

(24:10):
just had to separate about because some people didn't understand
that you can use the width to calculate the spacing.
But in almost all cases, what you're going to see
is a range of sizes. So we take sone hands you,
like we just talked about it. In plants on trial,
we have a range of width and spacing on that
two to four feet, and a lot of people find
that confusing. Do I space it two feet? Do I

(24:31):
space at four feet? Do I space it three feet?
And overall, here's the kind of guideline that you can use.
The colder your climate, the less wide that plant is
likely to get, because your colder and longer winters are
going to prevent it from growing quite as much. The
warmer your climate, the more likely you will want to
use the higher end of that range, because your plant

(24:53):
is going to have a longer growing season and thus
it is going to grow more. There's a lot of
other growing conditions that play into that. If it's like
ideal growing conditions and you're fertilizing it all the time.
Of course, it's going to get bigger than if it's
you know, struggling in you know, sandy dune soil and
not getting irrigated like in my garden in your.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
Right Stacey, as you would say, your mileage may vary, yeah,
very much. So if you're planting something in northern Minnesota
compared to someone in North Carolina, that with could be
possibly significantly.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Different, definitely, And it also is a personal choice. Like
I was saying, I know a lot of you don't
like your plants to touch. I love my plants to touch,
so I'm always reducing that spacing as almost as much
as I possibly can to make sure I get as
much in. So if you definitely don't want your plants
to touch, that's another case where you would use that
higher end of the range and space them at three

(25:44):
or four feet. Also useful in hedging. If you're going
with a hedge, especially in a cold climate, I would
always always use the smaller number because you're doing it
for coverage. You don't want to wait the rest of
your life for things to grow into with each other.
So it can be that's where the subjective aspect of
it comes in. But we're not trying to be deliberately

(26:05):
obtuse about how wide the plant gets. It's just that
it is a There are just so many factors, so
you know that's where sort of the art part of
gardening comes in.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
Sure, and personal preference absolutely definitely, you bet all right,
CJ writes to us this week High Team, I look
forward to your show every week. Question. I planted this
ginko princeton centry in my High Desert Zone six B
garden summer twenty twenty three. I noticed this funky growth

(26:37):
down at the base of the trunk, and I'm wondering
if I should be concerned. The vertical lines may be
from feral cats at the nursery. According to the nursery
gal who sold it to me, it seemed to do
okay last summer, a little bit of new growth and
some minor tip die off at the top, signing off
with a sassy wink.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
There you go, right, So this plant is being girdled
as we speak. So CJ did send some pictures and
you will see those in the YouTube version as well
as on our show notes at Gardenings Simplified on Air
dot com. And yeah, this is a bad case of
girdling and your tree will not be long for the
world unless you fix this.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
So it's choking.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
It's choking itself. Yeah, so you can see that the
roots are kind of that you can already see that
they're moving in a circular motion. You can also see
that they're kind of you know, twirling and twisting around
each other. And so, uh, first of the first thing
that I would do, and one thing that I noticed
from your photo CJ, is that you have your drip
emitters right up close to the base of the plant.

(27:42):
And I don't think that that's helping, because that's what
that's doing is keeping that area really really moist and
probably leading to a lot more hair root development there.
You really want those emitters to be out at the
canopy of the plant. Now, Princeton Princeton sentry is a
somewhat fastigic ginko, so that might not be very very
far off, But look at where the leaves are and

(28:04):
try to position your emitters to that so called dripline
or just outside of it where when it rains, the
water drips off the plant and makes that ring around
the planet. That will help a lot. I don't think
you're doing yourself any favors there, and then I think
you got two choices here. You can dig up the
plant and correct the girdling, which would probably be the
best thing to do. It's only two years not quite

(28:27):
two years old, so it's not going to be like
a lot of roots. I don't think it'd be super
hard to dig. And even though doing this will set
it back a little bit, I think that the investment
that you put into it to correct it will certainly
pay off in the long run because the other alternative,
and you do have to fix this, is to just
take an axe or a saw and take out some

(28:49):
of the worst defenders, and that's not really ideal.

Speaker 1 (28:53):
What would you do same thing. I really have nothing
to add, And I think your point, as far as
the water is concerned, or when people fertilized trees, always
work your way out to the drip line. Let's not
work around the trunk.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, it's easy to think that that's where you would
want to have it, but now you really want to
you know, the tree basically does kind of adapt to
the fact that that's where the water comes from when
it rains, so that is where you want to really
target your watering on any tree or shrub, or really
even a perennial, because bigger perennials will have a drip
line as well.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
We have some pictures to show folks who are watching
the YouTube version because Bethany writes to us, Hello, thanks
for the show. I enjoy listening to it every week.
I've learned a lot, and i'd like advice on what
to do with my laurels. Don't rest on your laurels, right,
that was easy. Last year, a few patches started wilting
and turning yellow brown, and now several of the shrubs

(29:46):
are affected. I tried pruning out the affected branches, spraying fungicide.
It's still spreading. Do I need to remove the affected
plants completely? Can I cut them back? I want to
try and protect the remaining healthy one.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Right, So do take a moment to look at Bethany's photos.
If you're not watching us on YouTube, go to Gardening
Simplified on air dot com and you'll see them. And
I wanted to answer Bethany's question today because it is
an issue that I think a lot of people are
likely to see happen in their yards this coming spring.
The laurel that she's talking about is a cherry laurel

(30:20):
Prunus Laura sirasus. So it's not like a bay laurel
or something like that. It is a brunly fevergreen does
want a sitic soil. But you know, a lot of
times when we see things starting to go wrong and
there's multiple of plants here in this planting, our first
thought is that it's a disease and it's spreading. But
I think when you look at Bethanese photos and if

(30:42):
this is happening to you, if you take a moment
to step back and really look at the area where
this is happening, you're going to start picking up on
a little bit more clues, more clues than you may
have just initially thought by looking at you know, from
one direction, and what I see here in Bethany's planting
is that all the plants on the right side are dying.

(31:03):
And what I notice is that there is a downspout
from the house right there, and very likely what is
happening is probably they're getting too much water. They're having
soil drainage issues or possibly like leeching issues from excess
water there that is either leading to drainage issues or

(31:24):
leading to a pH problem because cherry laurels do want
an acidic pH so it could be just like leeching
out all of the organic matter. But when you look
at this and you see that those damage plants are
so concentrated together and not just randomly through your hedge.
It's not like one down at one end and then
one in the middle. These are concentrated together. So something

(31:45):
is happening. It is almost certainly cultural, which is to
say it's related to water, you know, for soil fertility
something like that, and not a pest or disease, although
it could be rabbits. So what you're going to need
to do, Bethany is I would recommend clearing away your
mulch and trying to get down there and look what's
going on. You know, is the soil extremely wet and soggy.

(32:08):
I think that your plants that have turned brown are
not going to come back. But the ones that have
kind of that like sad, pale green color, which that
is definitely not a great color to see in your
garden potentially could be saved. But you're going to have
to remedy the situation. So you need to get down
there and see. It's so easy for people to think

(32:28):
when they see something going wrong with the tops of
their plants that it's a pest, a bug or something
like that. But I mean, honestly, nine point five times
out of ten, it's always an issue that originates at
the roots and the leaves are just manifesting whatever problem
that is.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
I agree, look down, not up, and with broad leaf
evergreens rhododendrons are another example. I phy top thro a
can be a problem, and I think you nailed it
on the head, Stacey, and I would look at that
soil because if you don't have good drainage, and we
don't know if this is a heavy soil or not,
but without good drainage, you're going to have those problems

(33:06):
and it will appear in the top of the plant
as though it's browning, turning, pale and moping. Yeah, and
that's exactly what I see in these patres.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
And you know, phi toop throa is a disease, but
phi toop through a root rot is a disease that's
caused by wet soil. So it's not really a situation
where like, oh gosh, it caught this horrible disease. It's
a it's a disease that kind of manifests based on
the cultural condition additions, and then it's the phytoproa that
might take it out. But the phytopthroa is only there
because of the poor drainage. And Bethany does look like

(33:38):
she is located in Tennessee, so almost certainly a pretty
heavy clay soil and rocky soil which can definitely, you know,
lead to drainage issues. So clear that multuay dig around
look for clues. After you have a heavy rain, go
out and check and see how much moisture that downspout
is funneling into that bed, and you know, possibly the

(33:59):
solution is a simple is redirecting that down spout out
into the lawn instead of into your bed. Great, so
there's always more clues there if you look. But anyway, Bethany,
I'm sorry to hear about your cherry laurels and hope
that you're able to save them. Anything that's still green,
I would at least give it a little bit more
time if you're able to remedy the soil issues. We're

(34:19):
going to take a little bit of a break, and
when we come back, we have gardenings simplified fan favorite
Birdman in the house to talk bird So stay tuned.
Thanks for listening to the Gardening Simplified Podcast, brought to
you by Proven Winners Color Choice Shrubs. Our award winning

(34:40):
flowering shrubs and evergreens are trialed and tested by experts
with your success in mind. Learn more at Proven winnerscolor
Choice dot com.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
Welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show. Today in Branching News,
I want to kick off branching News Stacey simply by
sharing that for our YouTube viewers or rad listeners or
podcast listeners. I'm going to be in the Chicago Land
area on March eighth, so that's Saturday, March eighth. I'm
going to be giving a couple presentations at Plathill Nursery.

(35:13):
Have you ever been there?

Speaker 2 (35:14):
I have not been there, but I know they are
one of the biggest and best nurseries in the Chicagoland area.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Fantastic nursery. I'm going to talk about plant scaping also
easy to grow plants. The presentations are based on the
work you and I do here on the Gardening Simplified Show.
So if you're in the Chicago Land area, love to
see on March eight, that's in Carpentersville, Illinois, plat Hill

(35:40):
Nursery Stacy coming up on February fourteen through seventeen this weekend, Yes,
is the Global Bird Count And this is exciting and
if you want to learn more about it, just go
to birdcount dot org. As a matter of fact, you
can follow live online as people submit their bird counts.

(36:05):
It's kind of that's neat, yeah, and to count birds.
And I thought, who better to talk to about this?
I mean, we just got off super Bowl weekend, right,
super Bowl super Bowl weekend, So let's move on to
Global bird Count and celebrate with a birdman himself, Bill Stovell. Bill,

(36:27):
how you doing this winter?

Speaker 3 (36:29):
Doing well this winter? How are you doing? There? Sounds
pretty good from here.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
I'm anxious for spring, Bill, can't wait. As a matter
of fact, you know, I was thinking this past week
watching the birds at my bird feeder, with the ground
still snow covered and everything icy and frozen. I start
to think about birds running out of berries and natural

(36:53):
food sources. It's probably a good time of the year
to be feeding them, right, Bills.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
One of the best. It probably is the best right now.
They're in more need. Now. All my berry trees except
my hawthorns are picked beer. They've been each each one
in the winter berries and then the all the you know,
all the different kinds of berries that we produce for them,
and now they're gone. They're supplemented with some flour seed

(37:20):
at the feeder and see.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
It exactly, you know, Stacey. We often talk on the
show about putting plants in the landscape that provide those berries,
and there are so many great choices, and it's at
this time of the year that it becomes pretty evident
part of the reason why we do it.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Definitely. The birds are very active at my suwet feeder,
and you know, that reminds me of a question, Bill,
It's been on my mind lately, and you are the
perfect person to ask. So I have a seuwet feeder,
and of course, you know, my garden is primarily geared
around attracting and making it hospitable for birds. So there's
plenty of shelter. I've got evergreen shelter just you know,

(37:59):
a few steps away. I've got a magnolia tree that
is very very close for them to fly into. And
you know what else, I've got Cooper's hawks and I
love you know, I love birds of prey, so I,
you know, I understand that that's a natural part of it.
But sometimes I do get to asking myself, am I
just like setting up a shooting fish in a barrel situation?

(38:20):
Am I making things worse for the birds when I'm
trying to make things better?

Speaker 3 (38:25):
Not so often. First of all, the hawks are there
once in a while, they don't stay there a long time,
and they're only good one out of seven, you know,
they save it seven chances before they get one bird. Oh,
I really get one that's a little a little weaker
than the others for some reason. Really, And yeah, And

(38:45):
one of the reasons that we have so many birds
and then the nests are so large, you know, the
flocks are so big, is that there's a there is
a predatory situation, you know, throughout the country, and that's
only one of them. There's diseases, and there's windows, and
there's other things. So it's just just part of their
life and you're not doing anything bad. You're probably doing

(39:07):
more a whole lot more good by feeding. And our
hawks need to need to survive too, because they take
care of the more crippled birds and the you know,
they call they call the herd or the flock, any
of the weaker one. So, and they're gorgeous birds.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Oh I'm crazy about them. I do love to see them.
But you know, I'm not gonna lie. I did see
a pair work to take out a woodpecker, and I'm like,
couldn't have just been a sparrow, a starling?

Speaker 3 (39:38):
Maybe?

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Did it have to be a woodpecker? That was a
little bit of heartbreaking.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yeah. Most most often I'll take a morning dove and
there's just a big puff of feathers. But we have
a lot of mourning. Does at the second most popular
popular bird there is a morning dove.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
So there's no shortage on my house, that's for sure.

Speaker 3 (39:55):
Just just another pigeon.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
I think what we ought to do is say up
an ad hoc committee to analyze the situation. Yeah, I
know that was well global bird count So Bill, what's
the use in counting birds? I think I have a
good idea. But you know, the website states that scientists

(40:20):
need hundreds of thousands of people worldwide to report what
they're seeing in their backyards, neighborhoods, wild places around the world.
They call it participatory science, community science. Because we're interested
in the health of birds. For our viewers on YouTube,

(40:41):
showing you some pictures of some tucans that I took
pictures of in Costa Rica a few months ago, just
amazing to watch. So we love, we love the the
enjoyment of watching birds. But Bill, the point here is
that we can make a difference too by helping track

(41:02):
and report birds in a bird count correct correct.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
This is just a fantastic possibility of a snapshot of
everything that's on the globe at the same moment, so
you can get an idea about how many and what
kind of birds we have, and if there's a real
problem with one species or two, then you can turn
a little at tension towards the conservation of that, making

(41:28):
their habitat better or their food sources better or something
like that. So it's a management skill and it's an
inventory of what we have. Our population changes all the time,
so we need to know.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
So it's useful to have it at the same time
every year, even though the actual date changes. Of course,
you know they need to have it on a weekend
so humans can actually participate. The birds have different schedules,
of course, but then you have that consistency from your
dear that it's always that second weekend in February or
third weekend in February or whatever it is.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
Well, then your birds are pretty much in the same
place as they were last year at your feeder or
the same places in your in your yard or your
woodland nearby, or the walking trails whatever out in the fields.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
And so with the backguard great bird count, is any
contribution valuable? Like even if you can only watch for
you know, five minutes and you do only see a
morning dove or you know something like that, is that
still useful?

Speaker 3 (42:27):
Well, I think that's one reason that they haven't spread
for such a long time, because you're not going to
be watching for that time. You can go and spend
fifteen minutes and take a note, and then next time
you're fixing the dinner or something that that you look
out to do another fifteen minutes and you come, you
pile it together, and all of a sudden you find
you the species that are coming in on a consistent basis,

(42:48):
and you've got your observation for your territory. Right.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
So, anyone who can even dedicate a few minutes and
whether or not you have a feeder. Right, This is
not dependent on whether you have a feeder. It's just
whatever birds are present in your backyard where you are well.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
You greatly increase your possibilities if you have a feeder
and uh water, Yeah, you know, heated bird baths one
of the two because that attracts the birds and sewet
which is a different group of birds too. Woodpeckers and
that are more into the suet where your seed feeders
are are different groups of birds. But uh, then you've

(43:27):
got the full full population available at that time, you know,
for the you know, whenever, whenever you had chance to
look at it. You don't have to spend a lot
of time doing it.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, I'm amazed at the great work done by many
organizations and many people that care about these beautiful birds
that we enjoy in our outdoor environments along with our plants.
Cornell University and the Autuban Society, and it goes on
and on. I remember in the past interviewing someone who

(44:00):
volunteered to pick up birds at the base of a
tall building year round and dead birds that had struck
the building, and I was, you know, during the interview,
I was saying, how do you do it. I would
be so depressed at the end of the day walking away.
But it's important work that they're doing.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Bill.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
When it comes to the environment, the health of birds
and wildlife in our landscapes are just a snapshot, like
you said, of how healthy our environment is.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
Well, they are in a canary in the mine for
the whole population. Yes, it's an indicator of health, and
birds are one of the primary indicators because they're more vulnerable.
You can see the population fluctuations first, and birds before
other things are apparent.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
Just to pause here.

Speaker 3 (45:06):
Yelling to launch and also amphibians.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
But I know, I think we're all just sitting here
going gosh, it's really sad.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
So Birdman. The other thought that runs through my mind.
I went outside this morning to clear snow from the driveway,
and it was quiet and very cold, but I listened
to the cardinals singing in the trees. But I wanted
to remind people of something you taught me a long
time ago, and that is it's at this time of

(45:37):
the year that, more than just about any time of
the year, water is important for birds.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
Right It is the most important right now because they
can't get it easily. They can't melt snow and have
it be effective with their body temperatures. They need to
have flowing their water that's unfrozen, whether it's along the curb,
or whether it's along a crook bank, or of all
a bird bath that has a heater in it so
they can just come anytime they need it. And they

(46:05):
need to take clean So they need to take baths
occasionally too to keep the picks and the other things off,
because they need their feathers to be efficient.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
I remember that polar vortex winter of twenty fifteen when
everything just froze solid, and the number of dead birds
that we saw out there. Like I said, why don't
we queue up old Yeller and watch the end here?
Now that we're depressed, let's move on to something more happy,
hummingbirds and robins and all of that good stuff that's

(46:34):
coming soon.

Speaker 3 (46:34):
Right yesterday I saw four robins and three male bluebirds
in a sunny spot, so they're they're looking around for
a few of the berries that are left. They're looking
at the sunny spots on the next of the building
where the ground is now clear because it's been reflexively heated,
so they're stretching in that along the bases of the

(46:55):
trees where there's still a little ground showing through, and
along the streams where there's some green to eat eat
things and fine bug. So they're struggling out, but they're
doing just fine.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Sorry, I think I'm still sad.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
I'm depressed. I'm going home.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
We're sick of winter, bill, Yeah, as I'm sure the
birds are.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
Yeah, I'm ready for spring. Well.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
And of course people on YouTube watch us all around
the world, or they're watching in the south, and they're
wondering what we're talking about here, right, that's true.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
Well, there's some benefits to this. There are no mosquitos
fighting me today, that's true.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
We got to be grateful for those things. So as
spring does come closer, what are some of the first
migrants that are going to come back that we should
have our eyes peeled for.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
When you see a plot of red winged blackbirds at
the edge of a field, and you know things are
coming on. When you look up in the sky and
you see angels flying over and calling, When you look
up in the sky and you see some ducks and
geese and trumpeter swan's going on over, you know things
are starting to move.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
And why the red wing blackbird. I'm curious about that.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
Do they migrate, Yeah, yeah, they move further south and
then they come back and flocks. They don't migrate very far.
I don't think they just go down to where there's
not so much snow. It isn't everybody goes to Florida.
They go to Tennessee or or you know, there's become
good things in Tennessee. They got horses and whiskey. They
got good things.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
And those red winged blackbirds they're just establishing their perch.
So come spring, when I'm out there running on the trail,
they've got their clear vantage point to peck me in
the heads.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
They set up a little exercise parlors around you, so
they're they're really in shape to do that.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
That's great, So hummingbirds. Everyone looks forward to to that
time of the year. I was looking online in social
media and saw just the most incredible picture of an
indigo bunting in a field of flowers. Talk about gorgeous color,

(49:20):
you know. And I'm a person who has always felt
in Major League Baseball, you've got the Orioles, you've got
the Blue Jays, you've got the Cardinals. I've always felt
there should be an Indigo bunting team. I love that
bird bill.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
They're great. They like little brambles and there is a
little spark and blue that's down inside the raspberry bushes
and there, and that's where they ens, and that's where
they live. But oh boy, are there's something when you
see them?

Speaker 2 (49:47):
They really are?

Speaker 1 (49:48):
They are so any remaining words of wisdom for us
here birdman, as we we anxiously await spring.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
Keep the bird feeders in a sewet is full, leave
your peter plugged in, and uh stay turned, put the
logs in a fireplace, and wait where it's on the
downhill slide. The days are getting longer, they are.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
We're talking to the birdman, Bill Stoville. Hey, Bill, any
idea when the loons are going to arrive on the
lake for you?

Speaker 3 (50:19):
I'll bet it's going to be March fifteenth to nineteenth.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
Oh really?

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Is there a line in Vegas on that?

Speaker 3 (50:27):
Yeah? Yeah, I take the nineteenth actually been the nineteenth
a pretty pretty often. It's there's not a lot of
gamblers for that. You gotta be loony to do that.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
Oh boy, so you are the loon ranger, aren't your Bill?

Speaker 3 (50:46):
Yes? I am the ranger southernmost late in Bury County
or in the United States, it has loons.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
Well, and that's only a month away, so that is
definitely something to look forward to.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
A month away, and the male will come in first,
and a couple of weeks later, the next week the
female will come in and they'll start paddling around and
diving and cooling and doing their pair bonding, and pretty simon,
I'll have nests and eggs and foots in the air.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
Well. I love it, you know.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
Alan Armitage has told us Bill that the reason we
garden gardeners never get old because they always have something
to look forward to. I guess the same could be
said for birders right.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
Absolutely, the life, the spring, the rejuvenation happiness that goes
along with it, the color and the song, the fresh
air from the leaves that are growing and creating oxygen
forest in the woods. It's just rebirth. It's a great thing,
it really is.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Thank you, Bill, I feel so much better.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
I'm glad we were able to end on a happy
note too.

Speaker 3 (51:49):
Yeah, instead of a silent pause.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
Yeah, it's always fun to talk to you bird man,
and thank you for your enthusiasm them for wildlife. And birds.
We really appreciate you.

Speaker 3 (52:04):
Well. It takes a group of us to make it happen,
and it's happening with us, So thank you very much
for letting me play well.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
Thanks Bill, take care take care of Bell youto. Well,
I don't know about you, but that made me even
more ready for spring than I already was. And I
was already pretty ready for spring.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
I have spring fever.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
I think you had spring fever since November. November, we
want to thank Birdman Bill Stovell for joining us. Thank you, Rick,
thank you, thank you Adriana, and of course thank you
so much to all of you for listening and watching.
We hope you can join us on Friday, February twenty
first for our new Plants live reveal on YouTube. We'll
see you then