Our State of Cancel Culture w/ Amy Schumer & Aja Romano

Ali’s on a mission to understand what’s up with this “cancel culture” thing and she has lots of questions: what the hell is it, where did it come from, is this a bigger social problem than we realize and perhaps most importantly, Is Cancel Culture Killing Comedy? Internet culture reporter Aja Romano tackles the social piece and then award-winning kickass comedienne Amy Schumer shares her point of view about cancel culture in the comedy world. They cover the growing pains of learning to be an ally, past mistakes, the best of what comedy offers people and why Amy is not afraid of being canceled when she gets on that stage.

If you have questions or guest suggestions, Ali would love to hear from you. Call or text her at [phone]. Or email go-ask-ali-podcast-at-gmail.com. (No dashes) //

Links of Interest:

Cancel culture, explained: https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/12/30/20879720/what-is-cancel-culture-explained-history-debate

What is cancel culture? How the concept has evolved: https://www.vox.com/22384308/cancel-culture-free-speech-accountability-debate 

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Go Ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. I don't think
that there's some one soul mate. It's not like there's one.
Although bon Jovi is my soul mate, there's always exceptions.
Are you saying that gossiping is the same as if
I'm picking lice out of your scalp and eating it. Well,
you've done both. So what do you think I want

(00:24):
to give her too much? I don't like her to
come in with an inflated head, so we won't mentioned
the Golden Globe. After all we've been through. We deserve
an orgasm. Cis I deserve? Welcome to Go Ask Allie.
I'm Alli Wentworth. This season, I'm digging into everything I
can get my hands on, peeling back the layers and

(00:46):
getting dirty. On this episode, we'll be talking about cancel culture.
What is it and what does it mean for our social, political,
or professional world. People can't seem to say anything without
the risk of being quote unquote canceled, which could mean
being shunned, shamed, or fired. The thing is, I find
it to be very divisive and I'm really scared about

(01:08):
it because I think it hurts us culturally and politically
and spiritually. So today on this episode, I want to
understand it. I am a student of cancel culture. I'd
like to be able to sit at my dining room
table without my daughter's telling me I can't say that.
I can't do that, Mom, You're gonna be canceled, particularly
because I'm somebody that is very vocal on my podcast

(01:32):
and on talk shows. So I have two guests with
me today to dig into the mine field of cancel culture.
Internet culture journalist Asia Romano, who has written deep dive
articles for Vox about the origins and evolution of cancel culture.
Then we dig into the effects of cancel culture on
comedy and the bigger question is comedy dead. Actress and

(01:52):
comedian Amy Schumer tells me your thoughts. First up, Asia Romano.
They are a culture a reporter for Vox. They're focused
on Internet culture and communities, as well as criticism and
commentary on movies, TV, theater, and other media. Asia's written
too in depth articles for Vox explaining the history of

(02:12):
cancel culture and how it's evolving. So come with me
while we dig into this whole notion of cancel culture
and when I say dig in, I mean very gingerly.
Asia Romano, I'm just so thrilled you're you're coming on
to talk to me about this, So welcome to go.
Ask Ali Hi, thank you for having me. So, Asia,

(02:34):
let me ask you a question. Are you millennial? You
gen z gen x? I'm right on the border between
gen X and millennial. Okay, So I'm there's no generation
for what I am. I'm so old. Social media like
didn't exist when I was younger, and so I still
feel like a student not only of social media, but
of so many things, and one of them I'm particularly

(02:57):
fascinated by because I don't truly understand it is cancel culture.
You're you're not alone. Okay, good, So walk me through
your understanding or how you view cancel culture. Let's start there. Well,
I think you have to understand when you talk about
cancel culture, you're really talking about essentially two different things.

(03:18):
You're talking about the original idea of canceling, which was
sort of a community idea that became kind of as
an in joke around the end of among black communities
on social media. So you have that initial idea canceling
is the idea of like an individual or a collective
boycott of somebody who's rubbed you the wrong way. And

(03:39):
then you have canceled culture, as it's become this ongoing
cultural phenomenon where people react to something they don't like,
harassing them, calling their managers, trying to get them held
accountable and or fired and or prohibited from future work, etcetera, etcetera,
and essentially trying to enact a community we caught through

(04:01):
the means of social media. Um, that's become this kind
of political weapon. And I think that's what people are
describing as cancel culture. But I think it's existed for
a while. This, I mean, it maybe wasn't called cancel culture,
but you know, there were figures in even the past
century that people would do their version of cancelation, like

(04:23):
Lenny Bruce absolutely and and other people. Except now it
seems like it seems divisive asia, it seems mean and scary.
Well yeah, that's also why I tried to differentiate between
the actual canceling, which I think was again sort of
individualized and and meant as like a community form of
protests and talking truth to power, right, and a lot

(04:46):
of that has been compared to say, the civil rights
movement boycotts, you know, when you'd have people exerting their
power as a community because they didn't have individual power.
So you'd have the boycotts of you know, businesses in
the South that were segregated to draw attention to the
inequality there. And in that sense, cancelation is sort of
an updated version of a boycott, right, and it's doing

(05:09):
sort of similar things because it's trying to draw attention
to like power, like a power different shield, right. You know,
there's some people that think cancel culture doesn't exist. Other
people say it's free speech. Is it free speech? Is
it protecting free speech? I think it's complicated because I
think we're definitely seeing people freaking out about cancel culture.

(05:30):
We're seeing you know, members of of right wing legislatures
pass ordinances against cancel culture, and they're trying to say
band critical race theory from being discussed in classrooms, right, like,
So there's an actual effort to both cracked down on
a cancel culture and then also cancel people they think
are doing the canceling. Right. It gets into this vicious cycle,

(05:52):
right yep. So we're seeing real world effects of this
thing that may or may not exist. So let me
ask you. This Time's Up is a movement that was
created to help all women in sort of every faction
deal with workplace inequity, whether it's sexual harassment or or
inequal pay. And so here's a movement that has been

(06:16):
worked on by some incredibly smart activist women, and somebody
comes along, okay and attacks Governor Cuomo with you know,
perfect grounding to do so. And what happens in our
culture is people don't go through the narratives and the

(06:36):
storylines from both sides. They hear something and they go, Okay,
you're canceled. And my biggest issue is that there's so
much misinformation and so much quickness to punish. And the
next thing that happens is, let's say, with times Up,
they're canceled, and then there's like there's no advocates left

(06:59):
on the playing field. Old So the thousands of women
maybe that were being helped and there was scaffolding around
them to help them in the workplace, it's just immediately gone.
There are repercussions, and I think that there's no due
process anymore, right, And one reason for this, I think
this is fueling a lot of the outrage against cancel culture,

(07:20):
and it's the way that social media operates to kind of,
as you said, really collapse and condense arguments that are
much more complex, right, and much more nuanced, because like,
if you're on Twitter all the time and you only
have two characters, right, you can't really have a lot
of nuance. In addition to that, I think is something
the academic Alice Morowick has She's termed it as morally

(07:42):
motivated networked harassment. And what that means is that instead
of say like a good faith engagement where you have
you know, and kind of both sides getting airtime and
both sides getting the chance to talk through a debate
or a conversation, right, instead, you have as a situation
where on social media you'll have people who are in

(08:04):
essentially social media networks who are motivated to kind of
spread outreach. And this happens at every point along say
the political spectrum, and often it has nothing to do
with politics. It could be like if you're in a
religious community and you're motivated by a specific tenet of
your religion, or if you're in a fandom and you're
motivated by a specific belief that your fandom has, like

(08:25):
it frequently happens that fans will just sort of attack
each other. It can be very kind of complicated to follow.
But the sort of underlying core activity that Marvik identified
is that once people latch onto this idea, whatever it is,
that they can get mad, that they can get mad about,
and then they can spread it to their followers and

(08:46):
be kind of a part of this chain of of reaction, right,
and that validates people. And once you have that kind
of thing happening, you don't really have due process, Like
you said, you have this sort of moral outraged by
all that keeps growing and growing because people are motivated
to share their anger and that sort of gets them
clout on social media in a way that you know,

(09:08):
having a conversation is not. But I think cancel culture
equally as often impacts people who are, you know, not
involved in politics at all, people who are just trying
to live their lives and then all of a sudden,
because of something they said or did, they are hit
with these waves of harassment. And I think that that's
partly because people who are doing the harassing feel so justified.

(09:30):
This is the key to like the moral motivation behind
it all, right, They feel so justified and what they're
doing that they don't care that they're hurting other people.
They don't care that the person on the other side
of their harassment is being severely impacted. Is you know,
is of somewhere sobbing or crying and and in the
most extreme cases, actually doing themselves harm. And it sort

(09:50):
of becomes a question of going back to what you
said about the lack of d process and and actually
sorting through a situation and working through it rationally and
having a discussion about it the DOE process in yourself,
like how you can make yourself stop reacting and anger
and sort of a knee jerk outrage, and how you
can calm down and prioritize what matters to you in
a way that doesn't involve hurting other people. And I

(10:13):
think this is something too that we increasingly lose sight of.
So here here I come with my big sweeping statement,
which is social media is kind of the dictator of
all this stuff. No, absolutely, I think you're right. Part
of the outrage against cancel culture, I believe, is outrage
against social media and the way it is dividing us

(10:33):
and sort of increasingly siloing us off into these camps
that just sort of yelled at each other, right, because
there's never I mean, there's an immense amount of people
he can go online and call out others for their
behavior and get groups to kind of join this public fray.
But also I think it's worth pointing out that, like,
when you make the public fray the target, instead of

(10:56):
looking at the points people are raising and why people
are angry, you're turning this this thing that was originally
used as a tool to call for accountability and a
way to sort of level a very imbalanced playing field,
You're turning that into a cudgel to use against the
people who didn't have power to begin with. So I
think it's really complicated, right, Like you're weaponizing this idea

(11:18):
of cancel culture, and especially the right wing. I want
to say the right wing because they usually are the
people who are legislating it in terms of trying to
literally pass bills around it. But you know, you see
it again on all at every point in along the
political spectrum, people using this idea of cancel culture to
sort of browbeat their political enemies or their their community enemies.

(11:38):
Because once you say that some of these cancel culture,
then you can just sort of dismiss whatever the opposition
is saying to you, right, So I think it's a
really double edged sword. Also. I mean, you know, you
look at Trump, and Trump should have been canceled a
thousand times over. There was so much carnage, certainly during
his presidency of people that were getting canceled, But yet

(11:58):
he was impervious to cancelation. And so then my next
question is asia, is it just the patriarchy that is
immune to cancel culture. Well, it would kind of seem
that way, right. The whole irony of canceling is that
it rarely works. You know, there are these extreme cases
where people will have you know, lost their jobs or etcetera.
But in most of those cases, people lost their jobs

(12:21):
because they were held accountable for things they actually did.
For example, the Central Park bird lady who called the
cops on on the man in Central Park Like, she
didn't lose her job because she was canceled. She lost
her job because she was racist and made all of
her coworkers probably afraid of her. Right, So there are
levels of discourse or just even basic facts about what

(12:43):
happened in cases that get lost, like the doctor SEUs
thing that so many conservatives were outraged about. Like the
narrative around that was that Dr SEUs was getting canceled, right,
But in fact, none of Doctor Seus's major titles, none
of the books that you actually have read, we're getting
taken off the shelves. The ones that we're getting taken
off the shelves were these heinously racist books that hadn't

(13:05):
been published in years. And it wasn't like anyone was
was actually saying we will no longer publish Doctor suits.
No one was saying that at all. They're just saying
this sort of minor set of his works that have
very offensive contents, well, we'll just lose those for a while, right,
Like that's it, And I think that's a much different conversation.
But that conversation was not the conversation that was being

(13:25):
had because people wanted to use that news as an
excuse to be mad about cancel culture, right because ultimately
didn't Dr seuss book didn't didn't go in the best
seller list during that whole controversy, right right, Right, And
the same thing with j. K. Rowling, Like after she
was quote unquote canceled for being a transpob, her sales
of her books actually increased in the UK. So when

(13:47):
you talk about you know, is the patriarchy and pervious,
I think there's two things that are happening. It's that
the patriarchy has the power and the ability to shape
and control the narrative around cancel culture in a way
that the people who are trying to do the canceling
do not write. And then also because of that power,
they have further power, which is to resist the actual

(14:07):
effects of people trying to hold them accountable. Right, and
it's time for a short break. Okay, let's get back
to it. In a cancel culture, there's no learning curve.

(14:29):
And what I mean by that is you cannot make
a mistake. And I think as human beings, making mistakes
is how we learn. And I it's funny because I
was just talking to the dean of my daughter's college
and he was saying that even days before the students
were coming to school, they rescinded a lot of of

(14:50):
acceptances because and this was not because of social media
or parents or it was other students turning other students
in meaning calling up and saying, oh, just so you know,
this student did this, that and the other, and they
got the student canceled, And these are teenagers whose frontal
lobe haven't developed yet. And so if you go to

(15:11):
any kind of great scripture, you learn by your mistake.
But if you can't make mistakes because you'll be canceled,
you can't move forward. Then you're like in this incredible
guinea pig cyclical. It's tricky because yes, like on the
one hand, you want there to be grace, you want
there to be a mercy, and you want there to
be lenients. Yeah, obviously I have no idea what kinds

(15:33):
of things are they're getting reported for, right, But like
if it's something that's extremely hainously offensive, you know, if
they've been reported and the school had still let them in,
you know, would that have sent the message that they
need to learn and repent and actually understand what changes
to make their behavior, or would they have been sent
the message that it doesn't matter what they do because
they have the privilege and the power to just skate

(15:56):
by and get on into college anyway. So I think
you have the conversation about consequences and accountability that tends
to get lost in sort of this rush to judgment. Actually,
and one thing I think it's important to emphasize is
that while we're having all these conversations about consequences and accountability,
you have so many people, mostly marginalized people. There's a

(16:19):
whole level of I guess, victimization that gets lost when
we're having this conversation and we're trying to say, oh,
there's no second chances for anybody, But in fact, a
kid who only who quote unquote only has his college
application admission rescinded, is still you know, they have a
chance to reapply when they do have all of the

(16:40):
the second chances that society tends to afford, you know,
upper class, privileged white people essentially, you know, I'm a
privileged white woman sitting here talking about it. But when
you start to look through the lens of race and
gender and you know, socio economic income, like, it's, yeah,
it's a completely different thing, which doesn't make it universal,

(17:02):
which enrages me even more. One thing that makes this
so difficult is that once you start talking about concepts
like mercy and justice, you run into this situation where
no one ever has the moral authority to be able
to say, hey, this is where we should draw the
line and give someone a second chance. Because as soon
as you say, let's give this person a second chance. Then,

(17:22):
because of all the you know, the morally motivated network
to harassment that I mentioned earlier, like that whole trend
and that whole tendency, you have people than attacking you
and saying, oh, you're part of the problem, right, Like,
will anybody ever be moral enough to ask and to
earn forgiveness in this context? I think that's a legitimate
question to ask. But the thing is, once you ask it,

(17:44):
then you look like you're part of the enemy, right.
I mean, I think about what Barack Obama said about
this kind of the quote unquote will politics and people
being so judgmental about each other and saying that's not activism.
But for me sometimes it's very hard to separate that
what is activism and what is basically social media pitchfork grade,

(18:09):
you know, right, right, It's really tricky because on their
winter hand, you want there to be a space where
you can have those conversations and you can have those
sort of like meeting of the minds, right, But at
the same time, nobody should be pressured to say, interact
with somebody who's made them feel unsafe or or harmed, etcetera.
Like this whole, you know, mute block sort of functionality

(18:31):
that we've gotten, like social media, develop those types of
tools in order to make people safe from harassment. Right.
I think many people feel increasingly that that's the only
way they can really shut toxicity out of their lives,
you know, just once, when somebody comes at you with
an opinion that you don't like, you just block them
and move on. And that's important to have. But I
also wonder if it maybe protects us from having to

(18:54):
share space with ideas that we aren't comfortable with, you know,
and wrestle with our own opinions, and learn how to
digest concepts that we don't want to think about, and
then maybe grow as human beings. Listen. There was a
survey in and they found that in seven hundred interactions,
deep listening meaning kind of respectful, non judgmental conversations, were

(19:16):
a thousand times more effective, you know, in kind of
bringing people together to understand each other as opposed to
just spitting out some venom against somebody and then blocking
their response. You know, it's very easy to just hear
what you want to hear. And then the bigger thing
asia is cancel culture, you know, has his finger in

(19:36):
the pie a little bit when it comes to what
an angry country we are. It's interesting because I don't
want to put all of this blame at the feet
of quote unquote cancel culture per se, because before cancel
culture was called cancel culture, it was called political correctness, right, Like,
There's always been this tendency to just sort of weaponize
language and to weaponize this idea of free speech and

(20:00):
use it against people who are marginalized and maybe have
not had voices. And one of the reasons that we're
seeing all of this anger coalist right now is because
social media has made people who previously did not have
a voice in the collective public space, has made those
people more visible, has given them a way to be
heard and to be part of the cultural conversation. More

(20:22):
throughout history, you would have heard from a bunch of
white men with no direct experience involved in the conversation
that they were having right. So, so now that all
of this change has happened, you have a lot of
people feeling really threatened. But part of the reason they're
threatened is because more people are getting to have steaks
in the conversation. And I think that's important where I
do think cancel culture. I do think that there's this

(20:45):
aspect of modernity that has really really made people lose
their faith and good faith engagement because I think people
want to be in their small contained communities and they
only try those people to be able to interact with
them respectfully. And when you're in those small contained communities

(21:05):
and you sort of trust everybody that you're talking to,
but once you go outside of your safe space, as
it were, and you interact with anybody else online, there's
an innate level of distrust. They're right, and I think
the way social media algorithms work is to sort of
further and fuel that division, and that's siloing off of

(21:25):
people so that they don't trust anybody else who's outside
their specific community, which of course just makes all of
the network harassment worse, which makes all of the walking
and moving on worse. So it really does feel like
something that's spiraling and and getting worse because nobody is
really sure how to fix it, but everybody hates it.
Do you think there's a time when cancel culture is
positive in the sense of protecting oneself from toxic people

(21:47):
or misinformation or inflammatory trolls. I mean, where where is
the line I tend to view the Internet is inherently
good because it has given rise to so many opportunities
for diverse voices to make themselves heard. So I think
that's important. But I also think that it's difficult to

(22:08):
find examples where someone was canceled, someone with silence forever, right,
and the Internet went well done and we all moved on,
Like because even in the worst cases, like with someone
like r. Kelly or Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, like
they've been canceled, but their their cultural impact is still there,
Like you still have the question of what to do

(22:28):
with their works, what to do with the legacy and
the impact that they left, and and that's that's harder
to untangle, right. I guess for me, the best case
scenario would be, you know, like somebody gets their admissions presented,
for example, and they learn, like it really and truly
learn not to be a Nazi for example, Like that
to me would be like a positive, But I also

(22:50):
think that they're probably more effective ways to teach that,
because I think what that tends to do is that
would probably make the person bitter, right, and instead of
making them humble and making them go, oh, my god,
everyone was right. I'm so sorry. I've learned my lesson.
But then what happens is they get like if they
if they didn't know what they were doing right, and
they were like, I was innocent, I'm just a kid,

(23:12):
leave me alone. Then they get embraced, you know, by
all of these people would say bad intentions. We maybe
our actual nazis right, and we were like, oh, you've
been victimized. Come hang with us. We won't victimize you. Yeah,
sorry you didn't get into college. But now you're a
proud boy, right, exactly right. That that happens, and we
see that happen all the time, and I think it's
at heart maybe everybody just wants to be accepted and

(23:34):
to fit in. So could you say that cancel culture
is kind of a new way, a new in our
sort of modern way of creating a moral structure, but
we're still trying to figure it out. Meaning if I
looked at it in a positive way, is it sort
of a newly formatted place or way of saying this

(23:54):
is okay and this is not okay. But we just
really haven't gotten there yet. I think you're onto something
there because I think in many ways you can look to,
for example, the decline in spirituality. Right, Like, if you
think about the function that religious organizations and so forth
have held for people throughout centuries, like the lack of

(24:17):
of like a moral authority to tell people what's right
and wrong has sort of left us kind of in limbo.
And so I think to some degree, we've collectively been
trying to rebuild a moral foundation non social media, using
each other as our as our loadstones, right, and using
influencers I guess as our guide posts. And this is

(24:39):
how you get you know, somebody like like Kirsty Tagott,
perfect example, somebody like who is sort of perceived is
like this easy going moral authority until they do something
wrong and then they themselves are canceled. Right. So it's
like we're sort of in this position where we're really
looking for moral leaders essentially, and I think where we

(25:00):
can both have a sense of the collective community and
an agreed upon moral foundation, but we also get sort
of the the emotional catharsis that we used to get
from going to church and going to revival. I completely agree.
I also think that there's a loss of community in
our country, and our community, which was the church was

(25:24):
I don't know, p t A. Whatever that thing was
that brought us all together in micro and macro communities
has now been shifted online. So that's what I mean
by all of a sudden with the Internet, we've got
to create a whole new moral structure, which I think
cancel culture has plays a big handed And also you

(25:44):
have to think about like how harmful many of our
public institutions have been when they've had power to, you know,
go on witch hunts and persecute queer people for example.
Like throughout history are like public institutions have not been infallible,
and so we're trying to to I think to some
extent people are trying to build new versions of those

(26:05):
systems without replicating all the flaws. But they're getting into
whole new problems, you know, because I think more people
are aware of, say, you know, how not to be
a homophobe, for example, but they're less conscious of, you know,
how to treat each other respectfully, how to just sort
of sit still with your anger and process what you're
feeling and and really work through an argument to figure

(26:27):
out how to to most effectively react to it, right,
And I think all of those things are being fueled
by you know, just the nature of social media and
the nature of having information flying at you and you
latching onto like the thing that ignites your emotions the most,
which is usually the thing that makes you the maddest.
It's a very very new, sort of brave, new world

(26:48):
that we're talking about right now, yeh, which is why
you know, I'm so grateful for this conversation, because just
the more I've been talking to you about it, the
more I go, Okay. So it's we've just sort of
built the foundation and we're we're all trying to figure
it out, and we're all trying to build something that
we can sort of both agree on. And I think
to a lot of this could be solved if we

(27:08):
had more regulation of the Internet as a service because
right now, the way that social media operates, you have
a company like Facebook that's really not helping um that
that's sort of building these algorithms that just funnel people
into angrier and angrier silos of information. There's no higher

(27:29):
accountability at the top for that, you know, like you
had Facebook having to undergo congressional hearings for like the
Cambridge analytical scandal, right but but nothing really happened, like no,
no major change came from that, and I realized that
this is a process. And I don't want to just
fully blame Facebook, but I'm saying Facebook is very representative
and huge and crucial example of the absolute lack of

(27:52):
people at the top who are being forced to think
about these changes because nobody is forcing them to. So
this is a machine that just keeps on barreling through society, right.
I will say one thing that academics have found helpful
is like when they're looking at terrorist recruitment online, they
found that when people are really censored and boycotted, essentially,

(28:13):
when people are actually canceled and effectively pushed out of
mainstream social media spaces, their ability to be influential drastically decreases.
And I think that that's interesting because that implies that
canceling someone by actually denying them a voice in the mainstream,
is super effective when it comes to fighting extremism. And

(28:34):
there are academics and tech researchers thinking about this problem
and working on it all day long. But we obviously
have a long way to go. We do have a
long way to go. But Asia, you've helped me so
much today you really have. Like I said, I think
we all need to think about it, process it, and
figure out the best way to use the internet for good.
And and by the way, if I've said anything that's
going to get me canceled, I hope you'll support me

(28:55):
on this podcast. So Asia, this see end up. Go
ask Alli. I'm actually asking my guests and listeners to
ask me questions because I feel like I do a
lot of asking other people. So do you have a
question you would like to go ask? Alli? I do so, Ali.
I have been watching a street dance show lately where

(29:16):
people compete to do various street dance and hip hop styles,
and I'm just wondering if you have ever done street
dancing or if you have any opinions on street dance.
Oh You're so sweet to think that I would have
ever street dance. Um, Asia, I failed dance at n
y U Drama School. But I do live in New
York City and I see street dancing all the time

(29:38):
and I'm mesmerized by it. And I have seen the
most talented people in the world do it. I mean,
if you walk, you know, in Central Park in the springtime,
you see some of these women and men doing triple
flips and bouncing off the wall and it's unbelievable. So
I am such a fan of it. I mean, it's
a true art form. I agree. I agree. They have

(30:01):
battle competitions where they just compete like they have to freestyle,
and it's just the whole world. And I'm fascinated by it.
I am. I actually am really fascinated by too, and
I would love to see a competition me too. We
should go. Yeah, take me absolutely, Asia, Thank you so much.
I really appreciate you coming on. That's my pleasure. Thanks
for having me. Next up, Amy Schumer joins me to

(30:23):
give us the lowdown on comedy in a world of
cancel culture, and also schools me on what jokes I
can and cannot say. And now, my friend and one
of the funniest people ever in the comedy world, Amy Schumer.

(30:48):
Amy Schumer is an Emmy winning and Golden Globe nominated
stand up comedian, actress, writer, producer, and director. Like so
many comedians, she has often toward theaters in arenas all
over the world, but in twenty sixteen, Schumer became the
only female comic to headline Madison Square Garden. Last year,
she released her three part docuseries Expecting Amy about her

(31:10):
incredibly difficult pregnancy, while also creating a comedy special and
currently Amy can be seen in Stephen Carram's film adaptation
of his Tony winning play The Humans. Oh Amy Schumer
High Hi Hi Hi Hi Ali, Oh God, I love
you and I heard your son just in the background,

(31:30):
So I want to make sure that you have time
to make his mac and cheese. So this episode is
something that I've been really fascinated with. It's about cancel
culture and comedy because I truly even this morning I
did um a talk show, and I afterwards was spinning
because I was like, am I allowed to say that?

(31:52):
Can I make that joke? Oh? My god? The hate
is going to come pouring in. So tell me. This
is a very very broad paint stroke of a question,
but censorship problematic tweets me to Comics are being scrutinized
like never before. So is there a panic in the
industry and is comedy dead? Yeah, a little question, that

(32:15):
is a simple question. Yes, I think yes, comedy is dead.
We're all dead. No. I think it's a great question
and like really worth talking about. I feel like, as
someone who you know we all want to like do
our best, and aside from just getting canceled, it's like,
how can I be helpful, you know, you know, and

(32:36):
as somebody who's like trying to be a good ally
and advocate and whatever, I just I know I'm gonna
sunk up. So I'm just like, just tell me when
I sunk up. I'm gonna do my best and try
and be authentic, but you know, just just tell me
when I if I say something wrong, and people do.
I've learned, you know, from different times, I've gotten backlash

(33:00):
and it's just worth listening to. And I don't think anyone,
you know, it's like the people who are actually being
like fully canceled. Um. As far as comedians, well no
one's really been canceled, like even like louis doing shows again.
But I think that it's more helpful to say I
don't want to buy a ticket to your show than

(33:21):
saying like, come on back and let's normalize and forgive.
I don't know, I I sort of feel like comedy
now where we are right now in our culture is
kind of can be a vehicle for radical thought. And
what I mean by that is there are plenty of
ways of talking about communities in a funny, funny way

(33:42):
that don't necessarily have to be derogatory. I also think,
like what you just said, as a comedian, if you
can listen to your people, you know, your crowds and
and your fans when they say, hey, by the way,
you know this is uncool. That's also part of I guess,
our learning curve as people in a comedic world. I mean,

(34:05):
I I know that on social media, you know, there's
lots of hate. That's just the norm. So I just
you know, comb through the hate and go, I know,
I know, I'm God, George could have done better. I
get it. I get it. But occasionally somebody will say
something that I go, yeah, you're absolutely right, I shouldn't
have used that pronoun or that joke is actually you know, inflammatory.

(34:28):
I get it. Thank you. Yeah. I'm trying to educate
myself to be helpful in that way, and I understand
the defensive reaction to want to be like, no, that's
not what I meant, or here's why I'm not racist,
or why you know, But I have like learned my
lesson enough times and it's like, actually, usually better to

(34:51):
just listen because there's probably something in what you know,
I used to do roasts, you know, I did this
comedy Central Roads. There's so mean, you like, go for
the absolutely jugular, And I wouldn't do those now because
I just as a younger comic, like I just didn't
really think about that people actually had their feelings hurt.
You know, I don't want to hurt people's feelings like

(35:13):
that's not I don't think that's heroic. I've just learned
that about myself. It doesn't feel good, it's not worth it.
So when people you know they have specials or you know,
their act where it's like it's just not helpful. It's like,
what are you fighting for? Like any comic who's like
I missed the days we could you could slap a
woman in public, you know, it's like, are you for?

(35:35):
Is this we want to support? I'm not even kidding.
It's like that insane. So, you know, and as far
as cancel culture goes, I think that the people who
are the most afraid and complaining about cancel culture are
the ones who are in danger of being canceled, and
they need to take a look at themselves. Agree with you,
you know, I'm not worried about it when I'm on stage,
I'm not worried I'm going to say something that's gonna

(35:58):
because I know my intentions and I know that I'm
like open to evolving. Yeah, I also think that. I
mean as a stand up comedian, of which I am not.
I tried it. You're hilarious and I've been your fan forever.
Hey you sorry, bitch, I'll take it. Bit. I did
want to try stand up, but they all yelled stripped,
and that's when I stopped. But you know, they say

(36:21):
that if you're too intimidated to try to be deep
or provocative, you shouldn't do stand up comedy, because that
is kind of your role as a comedian to you know,
shed the light on so many things that maybe we
would be too afraid to talk about or joke about.
So that I mean, to me, that's that slippery slope.
I think the most provocative thing you can do as

(36:42):
a comic. It is exciting to have people go in
thinking one way and to say some things that you
feel like maybe change their mind or evoked some thought
or emotion. But I think it's an opportunity to educate,
like some of you are. Once said that my show
was like sneaking shaved carrots and the brownies. And I
love that because I really, you know, you have to

(37:05):
like sneak. You're trying to be funny, but you also
want to you know, so like something that I'm doing
right now, which is so fun You're the first person
and he's gonna see this. But maybe I won't even
give for a podcast. But you know, I had hyper
amesis just like you did. Was so sick and found
out that in New York. I'm sure you know this,
black women are twelve times more likely to die unnecessarily

(37:27):
during childbirth in New York. It's it's like three times
around the whole country, three times. It's already a lot
of times. Twelve times. Were like, she's so anyway, it's like, okay,
how do you drop that statistic on an audience. But
what I just did was I ordered this mask of
an old white man. So I think if you wear
this into the hospital, you could get like a great
c section and no one will be mad at you.

(37:49):
You know, you just are like, just treat me like
I'm this old white politician. That is so funny. It's
pretty good, right, And for our listeners, she just put
on a white man, old man looks like a bird
Nie Sanders very much, so like a Bernie math My god,
I love that. I look pretty good, right, I just
got it today. But that's exactly right. You're taking risk,

(38:09):
You're you're making a statement. But we're all laughing, you know,
learning through laughter. Yeah, And it's just like being an
ally and all this stuff is so imperfect, Like it's
a constant negotiation. So it's like you can't win and
people are going to be annoyed. But that shouldn't keep
you from trying to be part of the conversation because
that's what people want. And that just keeps the white

(38:29):
supremacist patriarchal system in place, is because they just assume
people are gonna wanna just repeat the status quo and
not make too much noise, especially women, so as not
to annoy anybody. Right. But it's funny because it's really
the women that are shaking it up, like you. Like, um,
I was watching Michelle Wolfe's stand up show the other day,

(38:49):
and you know, she she goes right in for abortion
and so many other things, and yet and yet you're laughing.
It does not feel preachy. It feels invigorate ding and
you know, I can only imagine the pushback she got,
but she didn't get canceled, you know. And even back on,
you know, when David Chappelle was talking about child molestation

(39:10):
and Luis c k was insulting the Parkland shooting survivors
Kevin Hart about his son being gay, they weren't canceled
for those things. No, they weren't canceled. Um. If anything,
it probably got them like another Netflix specially, any publicity
is good. Yeah, they're like, Okay, we want to sign
you up for the next deal right now. Um yeah.

(39:32):
Like and that stuff is just not helpful. Like I
don't think it's brave to take a stand against the
Parkland students. It's you know, you're just going the wrong way,
Like why would you want to oppress any group of people?
And I think, you know, Chappelle dropped a new special
and it's like it's like a lot of it is.

(39:52):
It's like, you know, it's hard to speak out and
speak up for people as a white woman of privilege
because that's what you're gonna be, you know, and nobody
was here you apologize, like our white guilt is not
helping anybody. But I still want to try you know,
and and so and your stand up, Like, I just
want people to be funny and like, I think it's

(40:14):
strange how focus people get on their own haters. You know.
It's like I would rather see a special where somebody
is not focusing on the sort of press they got
about something or answering back for something. It's like, I
I do want to hear just about things that we
can all relate to and that kind of stuff. Like,
you know, there's so many different comedians and everybody should

(40:35):
you know, do whatever they want. But I just think
it's more interesting. I totally agree. I actually just read
the other day, um Jay Leno said that he was
reworking all his routines now because of cancel culture, which
I thought his were pretty I don't know what to
say to that. I mean, I don't know his stand up.
Actually I heard he was a great stand up. I've

(40:56):
never seen it. It's pretty tame, you know what I mean. Like,
and I mean, I think somebody like Jerry Simall doesn't
really need to worry about that because he doesn't say
anything that's like canceled. He's not the king of edginess, right, No, no, no,
I I mean, I have jokes that I am so
not proud of and that I've learned so much, like,

(41:17):
you know, jokes that just made me cringe so hard
because but also it's just like that the way that
we were raised, Like I was raised around people that
thought racist jokes were funny and and uh, you know
I I you know, somebody would make a joke like
our our black friends, like we would make jokes about
how they couldn't swim, you know, and like we thought
that was hilarious and they would laugh and it was

(41:37):
like totally normalized. And then as you know, I'm getting
older and like learning like, well, why is that? And
it's like, oh, because of segregation, because black people weren't
allowed in pools and they were humiliated and some people
were killed for putting their foot in what was considered
the white section of a pool. And that you know,
I don't think, Um, you know, it's a process, but

(41:59):
you weren't conscious of that. Now you're conscious of this
kind of thing, you know what I mean? And yeah,
I want to do better and I want to help. Yeah,
have you heard of a behavioral agreement form? No? But
I'm interested. So they're my husband to get one of those.
It's called a prenup. No, it's a it's a it's

(42:20):
a new form that I read about and for comedian,
for stand up comedians. It says, by signing this contract,
you are agreeing to our no tolerance policy with regards
to racism, sexism, classism, agism, able is um, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, xenophobia, islamophobia,
or anti religion or anti atheism. How about that? Well wait,

(42:42):
and that's for the comedian to sign before they go up. Yeah. Wow.
Some new comedy clubs are having behavioral agreement forms, which
is quite interesting. It's interesting that is wildophobias, a rapnophobia.
It gets like really specific, it gets afraid of your
own vagina. I don't know what that's called. Yeah, I

(43:03):
mean it's like you haven't signed that though I have
not signed it. But like one time I went to
Dubai to do stand up and I think I did
have to sign something saying that I wouldn't talk about
religion or you know whatever, and it felt so bad,
like you just you don't want those rules on you.
And I mean, what is that the clubs? Is that
the clubs like ensuring themselves if the audience gets I

(43:26):
don't know what that is. That's that seems weird to me,
or maybe they can say we were not going to
pay you because of this, because you said that. I mean,
who knows. I just thought it was a little that
is wild, really was wild. But also like I don't know,
I've been doing these shows at the Comedy Seller, just
like getting my sea legs back, you know, doing stand

(43:47):
up after the pandemic, and are you doing COVID jokes
a little bit? You know, I don't really have a ton,
but yeah, the audience, it's it's advertised as like a
secret girl show, and so the audience knows it's going
to just be women on the show, and I think
that is like a nice feeling and the audience. There
have been some men in the audience, but it's been
largely just female crowds, and it's it's felt very safe

(44:08):
and sweet. You know. That's Can anybody go? Yeah? Can
I go? I'm a girl. I mean, if you've got
seventeen dollars, I do think it's seventeen molls, but you're
We're worth it. Thank you. That's really sweet. I was
thinking about after nine eleven, everybody said, oh, God, you
can't be funny. Comedy is dead. You know, you can't,

(44:29):
but you can't, you can't. But there was definitely a
momentary pause in black humor, irony, cuticism, all that kind
of stuff. But then after a few weeks it came
back and people started to you know, so, And I
hate to use this line about you know, uh whatever
it is circumstances plus time equals comedy or whatever the

(44:50):
hell that is, but um, you know, but in some ways,
I think it is true that right now we're so
seeped in this cancel culture that maybe two years from now,
I mean, they have it though they have it. It's
like they've got Rogan, they've got birth, they have access
to that right now. So I don't think it's so
much that like, you know a lot of comedians are

(45:12):
going to go back to that. It's uh, because it's
it's there if you want it. They have their people
are Yeah, there are people hanging on to um whatever
those views are. And how exactly I personally get all
my medical advice from Joe Rogan. Um, I do too,
and and always have. I've lost ten pounds on the
do Warmer Horse stuff, which is fabulous nobody told me

(45:34):
that no activated charcoal and de warmer, and I'm actually
never felt better. I get my period every with him,
without a uterus, I get my periods same. I don't
have ovary take at my periods. It's incredible perfect um.
So I'm also hearing a lot of stand up comedians
don't want to do college campus stores because they say
that the college students are way too politically correct and

(45:57):
quote unquote woke, and they get really upset about I mean,
have you heard that that is I would say that
that I've never felt fed as an artist by a
college show. But I mean, they pay great money. So
I don't know who's saying no to those shows. But
I'll go and I'll just I'll read the Declaration of Independence,
play it's safe. Do they really pay? They pay big books, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(46:19):
colleges pay really well. So anyone who's like, I mean,
that's not the show you're going to work on and
be like, god, I learned so much about myself as
an artist. They are really really sensitive and woke and
all of that, and that's okay, you know, that's that's
how they're feeling. You can't tell them that they're feeling incorrectly.
So yeah, if you're going to do a college show,

(46:40):
just like I would just say, like don't take those
big risks and the big swings, like it's not worth it.
Just take the check. Yeah, it's just get that check,
get in and out of ann arbor wherever the fuck
and going to a show at a nightclub if you
want to express yourself. It's so funny. How much political
human or do you do? Do you do a lot

(47:01):
of politics? No? I don't. I mean it's so depressing.
It's not because I'm trying to stay away from it.
Like I have a joke right now where I'm like,
let's try and think of it instead of the abortion
man in Texas, Like let's see it as an opportunity
for a destination abortion. And you know, like trying to
spind it like bring your girlfriends to Camcoon you've always
wanted to go, But it's like it's so dark, it's

(47:21):
so unfunny and and what's you know, But it's just
such a bummer, And I know I want, I do
want jokes about it, but I lost, Like I think
half my audience going out for Hillary, did you really? Yeah?
I was doing Arenas and I was. I was in Tampa,
and I was, you know, like this is a big deal,
like basketball teams play here, and I just asked the question.

(47:45):
I was like, can somebody just explain why you don't
like Hillary? Like I just I don't understand, Like I've
just never heard what the reasoning is, you know, like
just anybody in the audience. And somebody came up and
they were like her emails, and I was like, what
does that mean? You know, and there was no nobody
had any information, and so like two people left the

(48:05):
show and they wrote about it like mass exited. I'm like, well,
what about the twelve thousand people that stayed, Like can
we focus on that? That's pretty good exactly. It's like
I think I love that the people who come to
see me on purpose, I know they're on my side.
I know they're not you know, like, yeah, I love
looking out at the crowd and knowing like these people
are on the right side of history. Yeah. I mean

(48:27):
I would imagine that it would be like if you
were like bon Jovi or somebody and you come out
and it's just the Mormon Tabernacle choir watching you, you know, like,
who who wants that? Anyway, you know what I mean. No,
I'd rather not. You know, I have friends who don't
speak out about anything because they're afraid to hurt their career,
and I think that seems like a really stifling way
to live. I could not do that. I could not

(48:49):
keep my mouth shut and be able to sleep at night.
But also the fact that you don't keep your mouth
shut is what's so great about you. Well, thank you,
and will you tell that's my husband? Yes, obviously I
need to do a podcast with your husband. Um. But
also I think people now are like, you know, politics
are so full of lies. You know, I'm basically getting

(49:09):
my truths from stand up comedians, you know what I mean? Yeah,
me too. I get a lot of I learned so
much from Samby or John Oliver and yeah, like there
have been moments in my life where I'm watching like
you know, wall to Wall Madow and like just I'm
glued to that stuff. But now it's like I want
to be informed, but I do feel like I just

(49:30):
need a break. Yeah, it's just all so depressing. Yeah,
it's a lot. Listen during lockdown, I was locked down
with the news anchor and all he did was just
he was just like a running feed of bad news.
So um, I know, so I looked like I want
to see other people. I was. I went an open marriage,

(49:51):
but I was like seeking comedy out to save me
from it all. It was too much. And whether that
was comedians making fun of what is going on, or
it was comedians who were just you know, like Jerry
talking about marriage or something else, it was my escape, literally,
my mental escape, because I needed it so badly. Yeah,

(50:12):
I know. I really just feel like people want to
like laugh and be silly, and and that's what I
want to Yes, oh my god, laughter is everything. And
and the other thing is that I wanted to ask
you about is and and I'll probably get canceled for this,
but I have very strong feelings about like being offended

(50:33):
by the material or being offended because it wasn't funny.
And I remember a million years ago, and I'm going
to say this wrong, Tosh Point. Oh yes that is
his name, that's his legal name. Okay. He was doing
some stand up and he made a rape joke and
a woman stood up and walked out, and he yelled
after her and said something like, you know, I hope

(50:55):
you get gang raped on the way home and everybody was,
you know, there was this big debate about it, and
I said, at the time, I had a show on
Yahoo and I said, you know, first of all, there's
something funny about rape. There's no joke there. But his
joke wasn't even funny, right, Yeah, it's wishing gang rape

(51:18):
on someone. Is not ever like the gold standard of hilarity,
I don't know. But it's also not a joke. It's
not a joke. There's nothing funny about it. I know.
That's a problem I've been having to I really don't
care for comedians acts where there's no joke. They're actually
just expressing actual hate for women. Yes, and and that's
where people go, yeah, but but it's funny and you're like,

(51:39):
there was no punchline, Like these people just actually feel
very threatened by women. It was completely misogynistic. And so
I spoke out about it. What did you say? You
said on Yahoo? You didn't. I said on Yahoo two things.
I said. One, rape is never an area that you
know makes me guffa. And but also I wasn't even laughing, like,

(52:01):
oh my god, I can't believe I'm laughing. It was
just a lazy horrible, mean spirited women hating thing to say.
And of course I got hundreds of tweets from you know,
fourteen year old boys going like, I hope you get
getg raped. And I was like, okay, thank you, thank

(52:22):
you for your feedback. Yes, it's it's so um. Yeah.
But I mean that was clearly a case where you're
not funny, and you're not funny. No it's not. It's
just like not brave, it's not funny. But but in
the past you have made jokes, let's say, about being
overweight or heavy. I remember your your dove so commercial jokes,

(52:45):
and I mean, first of all, I'm peeing in my
pants laughing, but also it had a point. It was
really uplifting and inspiring at the same time. And that,
to me is the genius in the craft of being
a comedian. You know, if you can actually actually lift
up and make us laugh. Yeah, you should fucking get

(53:06):
the Nobel Peace Prize especially right. No, yes, that is
the thank you. Because I've been applying for this, they
keep giving it to people like Malala or you know,
I know, and I'm like, what about me, the real hero?
I actually said recently, George said, oh, the scientists won
the Nobel Peace Prize, and I said, fucking not Amy
Schumer again, it's such bullshit. They're not responding to my letters.

(53:28):
I'm really well, well, well, I'm going to get a
group together. I'm going to start to the people. I'm
going to talk to the people. Thank you people on
the phone. Okay, So I wanted to ask you. I
wanted to go ask Ali, what was it like to
have COVID so early on? Good question? How did it
make you feel emotionally? So when I had it, it

(53:48):
was really early March. It was in scary times like wintry,
and everybody was freaking out, and everybody like bunker down
or flew from the city. And I got it. I
was not scared. I did not think I was going
to die, because I never think that I'm going to
die in a kind of big dramatic way, which is

(54:08):
why I know, like if I was on a plane
with my husband and it went down, it would be like,
you know, George Stephanopolis plus one die, Yes, you would
be listed in the Death the Wife, the wife. You
are worthy of a big dad thank you. But um,
it scared everybody else because it was so early on
and when it started to get into pneumonia. That's when

(54:31):
you know, it was like, all right, George, gotta go
get those big horse antibiotics. And you know, it freaked
my mother out. But also George took a picture of
me for Good Morning America because we wanted to alleviate
some fear, like I have it, but I'm I'm okay,
I'm not on a ventilator, you know, So we kind
of wanted to not freak people out because a lot

(54:53):
of times you would, after me, you would see somebody
in the news and it would say like they have COVID,
but you didn't know what that meant. So we sort
of chronicled a little bit. And then me, you know,
coming downstairs and having not seen my husband and children
for three weeks was a way to say I got
through it. It's okay, um, But you know it was
it was being the part of the early days was

(55:16):
you know, it was a little scary, I'll say that.
But Jerry and Jessica did throw toilet paper and fabric
softener over the wall, which was incredibly kind. Yeah, that's
true friendship. Anyway, I got through it. I got through it, okay, um,
Amy Schumer go be with your baby boy. Okay, Well,

(55:38):
I love you. I love you too. Thank you for
doing this. You're amazing. Thanks for having me. If you
ever want to talk about our vaginas, um, I would
like to talk about our vaginas under any circumstances. Well,
I mean, and this is no joke. I feel like
we have some stuff to say. I think like a
vaginas have a lot to say. I think we should
let them speak. We'll stay out of it and they'll

(55:59):
just talk. Yes, all right, thank you so much, Bye bye.
I can never get enough of Amy Schumer. I love her.
I love her. She's funny, she's empowered, she's smart. And
Asia is so insightful. My god. I had these two
powerhouses on my podcast talking about cancel culture, and I

(56:21):
think cancel culture is here, guys. It's here for a while.
And I don't even think I can say guys anymore.
I think you get canceled for that, um people. So
thank you, thank you, Asia, thank you Amy, thank you

(56:43):
for listening to go ask Ali. Be sure to subscribe,
rate and review the podcast, and follow me on social
media on Twitter at Ali e Wentworth, It on Instagram
at the Real Ali Wentworth and If you have questions
or guest suggestions, I'd love to hear from you, call it,
text me at three to three four six three five six,
or email Go Ask Gali podcast at gmail dot com.

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