May 31, 2023 • 51 mins
Ever heard of arguably the best group of collegiate basketball players in NCAA history? The Fab 5 were a force to be reckoned with and one of 5, Jimmy King, joins Harp to take a walk down memory lane and share some stories about unknown.
A special thanks to our sponsor Herman Marshall Whiskey. Built from the grain up. Just like good whiskey should be.
www.hmwhiskey.com
A special thanks to our sponsor Herman Marshall Whiskey. Built from the grain up. Just like good whiskey should be.
www.hmwhiskey.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello, y'all, Welcome to Harp'sCourt. I'm your host, Derek Harper,
and man, you're not gonna believethe guy that I have as my
guest this afternoon. I am honored, excited all of the above because this
guy was a member of the fivefive, I mean ninety one, probably
one of the greatest and I'm notexaggerating when I see say, greatest classes
(00:27):
of college hosts of all time.Jimmy King, Man, how are you
they originated as far as Kings areconcerned. How are you doing, brother?
Thanks for joining me, my man, d Hart, how are you
doing. Thanks for having me mybrother, Yes, sir, it's been
a long time. I appreciate youhaving me, Yes, sir, man.
And it's amazing that I'm sitting herein plain Though I don't know where
(00:50):
you are, I know you're fromthis area. But everything for you,
man, Okay, everything for you. Jimmy started right here, right at
plain O East High School. Sinceif you on high school, you had
a great career in high school.But from there, man, you ventured
off to the Midwest and you wentto the University of Michigan and ninety one,
(01:14):
I think it was ninety one,if I'm not. If my memory
serves me right, you ventured offto the Big Ten to play at the
University of Michigan with some fabulous guys. Man, I just want you to
share with me the viewers, whatin the hell what kind of experience was
that, man, Because you guysare it's incredible. You guys are super
(01:38):
human guys when it comes to collegebasketball. Well, thank you for that,
for that love. And but youknow, for us, it was
just it was really having sent Wedidn't we didn't really plan it. It
was something that kind of formulated,just came together. But when it came
(01:59):
together, Juwan Howard, who's youknow, the head coach of the University
of Michigan currently, was really thespearhead of recruiting. So it was really
a precursor to what he does now. He recruited us because he was the
first to sign, and he wasrelentless, like he I remember coming home
(02:22):
from playing OUIs coming home from practiceand he would be on the phone,
um you know as he finished practice, uh walking home through the cold of
Chicago. So um, you know, he was very relentless. Some days
I would skip, uh, youknow, his phone call because I was
like, man, I want totalk to him to day. I'm just
(02:43):
trying to get home. It stillsomething and and but he was that guy,
so U Juwan was really the catalyst. I signed second. Ray Jackson,
who's out of Austin, Texas,signed third. UM Jalen and Chris
Jalen Road and Chris Webber signed fourthand fifth, both out of Detroit.
(03:05):
Right. And that's the reason whyUm, Chris wore number five or number
four and Jalen wore number five becauseChris side four. And it's great,
that's great information, great insight.Carry on, this is your show,
brother, I want to hear morewhen when it comes to all of all
(03:27):
of that King. But well,so you know a lot of people think
that the names, the names carrya class like that. I mean,
you guys are famous for so much, man, the baggy shorts, the
black socks, the black shoes,I mean, all of that played it.
You hated Duke, you know,and I know hate it strong.
I don't meet it in a viciousway, but there was there was there
(03:50):
was something about Duke that you guysdidn't didn't care for. But I think
a lot of people think Chris Webberwhen they think Michigan and the Fat five.
They think Juan Howard, of course, because he did the WAP.
Remember the day, Yeah, yeah, the cabbage patch beg your pardon the
cabbage patch. That's exactly right.The WAP would have been cooler though,
(04:12):
But yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. But at any event, people think
that when when you say fab five, Ray Jackson, I know what Ray
is. He's a coach now,so of course he loves the game.
Um, Juwan, you talked aboutyourself. I think people automatically just kind
(04:32):
of cater to Chris Webber and JuwanHoward, the best two of the five
guys. What do you think manbrought you guys together other than the recruiting
from Juwan Howard, Because to bea powerhouse in college basketball for as long
as you guys were there, ithad to be some little nuggets that really
(04:55):
allowed you guys to flourish as ateam. It was really the desire that
we all had. We wanted tobe the best. We wanted to win
the championship. We wanted to representour families and our abilities. We knew
(05:15):
that we were good individually. That'show we got to the University of Michigan.
That's how we qualified for the Universityof Michigan because as you can see
now you got people that's in atransfer reportal right now that jumped to Michigan
but have to jump back out becausethey don't qualify. And see that's another
side of that's another side of youknow, of the student athlete. We
(05:39):
were more than athletes. We werestudents too, So that I think was
it was overlooked because we were studentsof the game. So that when we
got together, we wanted to makesure that we could we were able to
fit our pieces together there to makeone hole. You know, we weren't
(06:01):
five individuals, and that's why wewe we thought, you know, especially
you know how the game was playedback then hard you know it was inside
out, yes, and you know, you know we it was. It
was. It was a lot ofintimidation, It was a lot of physicalness,
It was a lot of banging.So of course you look to Chris
and you looked at juwan Um asanchors in the middle, and they could
(06:25):
play off each other and raid Uhand Jalen and myself can just kind of
float around a perimeter, slashing cuts, get it get in where we fit
in. And so Uh you know, we were kind of playing position list
basketball as it is today back then, and I think that was our advantage.
(06:47):
If you could compare five guys nowin the past, in the NBA
or in college basketball, is thereanything or anybody that you would pair the
Fab five two? Um, Iknow we wanted to be well. I
(07:08):
say it was a mix of afew teams. One five Slammer Jamma for
Houston, just the Houston eighty threeKimola Juana, you know he has no
uh yeah, I remember that team. The great Gray Guy was a coach
(07:28):
there, right, that's right,Yeah, Gray Lewis was a Gray guy.
It was Ray Guy. It wasguy yeah yeah, and and um
and then um uh the uh Georgetownteams, the John Thompson lad teams with
Patrick Ewing um uh and and uhMichael Jackson and and and and Reggie and
(07:50):
those guys so uh and then itwas and then it was the U N
L V Y Johnson Great and Denyand Augment uh Scurry the side start so
so and and and so those werethe kind of the influences that we had
(08:13):
in college basketball. Um. Itwasn't necessarily pro, although we did have
pro guys that we liked like IsaiahMagic, you know bird you um,
you know a guire, you knowwhat I'm saying, Like y'all y'all were
my our guys, so um,you know, you know, we wanted
(08:39):
to build off of the things thatwe watched you guys do and and and
we wanted to you know, kindof build a steppingstone and keep the trajectory
going in that in that way thatwe felt was the right way to play
the game. Man, what whatyou know when when when you're different,
and clearly the Fat five was different, right, I mean, you change
(09:01):
the culture. Like I talked aboutthe black socks, the black shoes,
the baggy the baggy gear, uniformsand things of that nature. Of course
that put you on under a lotof scrutiny if you would from the national
base. And I remember it likeit was yesterday. I mean I remember
when Chris called the time out andyou didn't have a timeout and all of
(09:24):
those different things. If you wouldjust a little king elaborate man on some
of the things away from basketball thatyou were forced to deal with us,
That's a great one, hard Likeyou know, there were so many other
things, just for example, um, in the documentary. The documentary we
(09:46):
ESPN thirty for thirty we discussed Isaw it wad like we got Okay.
So they were alumni from the Universityof Michigan, and you know, back
then it was a techn knowledgy.We didn't have you know, you couldn't
Yeah, we couldn't do this.So everything was handwritten. You know,
(10:07):
everything was you know, was wasdigital, uh analog. So uh it
was professors, uh, business CEO's, business owners, UM CEOs, prominent
people, UM politicians, all typesof people, all different types of people
(10:28):
who are supposed to be uh pillarsin the community, sending nasty letters talking
about they didn't want to see fiveniggas on the court. They're from the
University of Michigan, probably signing alarmtheir year and everything. So those are
(10:48):
the things that I think we're madeto my heart. Yeah, and I
mean, you know we're kids too, you know, we're kids. So
you know, we we internalized thatand used to forge a relationship with all
the other players too, not justthe black players, but even the white
(11:09):
players, like we're part of thistogether and we're gonna if we're gonna,
you know, do this, thenwe need you guys. On board and
if you got our backs, wegot your back, um. And and
that's why I really applaud Steve Fisherbecause Steve endured a lot of those things
that I don't think if we wereanywhere else, it wouldn't have been.
(11:33):
We wouldn't have done back. Wewouldn't we wouldn't have been able to do
what he did. Talk about Fisher, I mean he had a tough job
in himself. I mean you justtalked about what you talked about, and
he was the head. He wasthe head of the Snake. He was
a guy that you guys depended onfor for for for leadership and for direction
(11:56):
and guidance as a head coach.I'm sure your relationship today is as strong
as it was when you decided toleave play on West or play on East.
I'm sorry that might start trouble,but I'm sure the decision you made
had a lot to do with him. Talk about him as a man and
a guy that that led that Fabfive team. Absolutely, And this is
(12:20):
this is I could summon up foryou just like this. Hart. You
know you've been through it, youknow the game, you know how it
is when you're being recruited, yourtop guard in the country, you know
what it is. So everywhere I'min, everywhere I've been, you know,
there there there may or may nothave been a bag when Michigan came.
(12:41):
When Michigan came, they didn't promiseme anything. They promised me a
good education, and they promised methat I would become you know, someone
that uh, that would be viablewithin in the community. And that was
what separated Steve Fisher's approach versus everyoneelse off. Top Number one was integrity
(13:05):
because as far as you know,like we know, in this game of
life, if you if you can'tshake someone's integrity or if your integrity precedes
you, then you know, that'sthat's that's that's that's that's more than an
enough th uh the most have whenthey before they you know, you are
(13:28):
able to walk into a room oror have a conversation. So that stuck
out to me more than anything.And what also stuck out to me is
the way that he approached He neverhe always approached me as a young man,
(13:50):
not a boy, not a child, you know, not a kid.
He treated me, He treated melike a man, and and and
and every time he addressed me,he addressed me by my name or by
uh uh, or he called mea man. You know, he addressed
(14:15):
me as It sounds like nothing,Jimmy King, it sounds like nothing other
than respect, definitely. And andand on top of that was the way
that they taught us the game.They taught us the game. Um,
the way they held us accountable forgoing to class. Um, there was
no you know, nobody taking yournotes. There was no skipping school.
(14:41):
You know, it was it wasit was to be accountable. It was
you had to be accountable. Youhad to do your work and uh and
if you didn't, there were repercustionslike there were there was no favoritisms.
Yeah. So so that to meis what set the tone. And uh
we learned from that and we wereable to internalize that as well and grow
(15:03):
and use that as our you know, kind of foundations. Yeah. I
think automatically people think King that yourbest player is the leader of your team.
Out of that five guys, Iknow Ray a little bit. I
know he was hard knows. Iknow he defended a bunch of positions.
(15:28):
I know he had that dog mentalityas a player, just like you,
just like the whole fat five familyhad. But if you had to pick
one guy, one pacific guy,right, who would you consider the leader
on that five the fat five squadin ninety one when you guys were freshmans
at the University of Michigan. IfI had depict one guy because you have
(15:56):
leadership probosophical, it's tough. Becausewe were all leaders in our own right.
Like I was a quiet leader onthe court, but in the huddle,
I was the one doing the talking. So like if you ever see
us huddle in the hotel, Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's different kind
(16:18):
of leaders man, They're different kindof correct. But Jalen was probably the
most outspoken, the most demonstrative,Chris was the most physical. Juwan was
the most probably stepped out because ofhis work ethic and hard nosed toughness,
Me because my athletic ability, andand Ray because of his defensive hustle uh
(16:44):
utility type mentality and skill. Sowe although we were all of those things,
the things that we needed each otherto do and we decided to do
when we were in those back roomsin those hotels discussing how we're gonna this
work, we decided, that's yourrole, this is what I need from
you every night. I need thatI didn't get this from you. And
(17:07):
if you if for whatever reason wedon't get it, we can supplement.
But this is what we have tohave. And and that's how I'm starting,
you know, um, knowing thatall of us can play all the
roles. That was the uniqueness ofit. We could reap it, all
play the points. We can allbring up the ball. We can all
(17:30):
you know, stand in the cornerand be the spot up shooter. We
can all post up on the block, we can all slash through the lane.
So you know, I think alot of times we actually limited ourselves
just because we were so far ahead. It was just like, we can't
(17:51):
do all these things even though wecould it, you know, even though
we could, but it was justthe way the game was. And uh
but but I do know, Ido. I do feel like if if
we came through this era, it'dbe it would be something else, like
because the way that we talk aboutthe way that we talk about it now,
(18:14):
UM, I think that yeah,m hm, so you you you
you just feel like you came upshort. I mean, let let let's
face that, too, weren't ableto get over the hump, as they
say, and when when that nationalchampionship, what's the one thing when you
(18:37):
look back at that journey together asfive guys, Because of course people lives.
When you're in college, your ambitionis clearly to be an NBA basketball
player. I've heard Chris Webber saythat before. I've heard Jalen echo the
same sentiments as well as yourself.Everybody. Everybody's goal is to get back
or get to the NBA, getto that next level and and and last
(19:02):
for a long time. What's theone thing you think that kept you from
being crowned champions in college basketball?Should have gave me the ball? I
wanted to hear you you see mewant to y'all raised me, y'all raise
(19:23):
me, I said with yall sinceI was that's what I wanted to,
you know, you know hard theyshould have gave me the ball. That's
what I wanted to hear. It'sincredible, man, I just followed that
that error, man, it was. It gave me those bumps. Man.
(19:45):
I'm telling you, when you didwhen you feel short, I really
felt some type of way, youknow what I mean. I was really
rooting for the uniqueness of the riverreason I would. So I'm telling about
myself because you know, there's alot of hate relationship to the big tents,
right, That's right, Yeah,that's right. No, but on
(20:06):
the real man, I honestly Icommend you guys man on changing the culture
of basketball from just black and whiteto being yourself, being authentic and and
going for it, you know whatI mean. And I mean how you
guys that young you talked about beingbeing kids at the time, How you
(20:30):
guys handle that. I think youguys will hold on too for the rest
of your life. So I'm gonnaI'm gonna move on from that. You
can, you can comment on that, but it had to be difficult.
All I can say really is comingup short. All I had to say
is that you know, the onething is is this, you know,
we we we all also came fromstrong black families with mothers and fathers.
(20:57):
Yeah, and and if mothers andfathers were home, we had grandmothers,
we had aunt's uncles, we hadpeople in the neighborhood, we had the
community support. And so that iskind of the mentality that we had coming
in, is that we have tocarry that type of commitment and support and
(21:18):
unity on. So that that's reallywhat our mantra or you know what really
hurt us as far as not reallygetting to the pinnacle because we wanted to
show everybody you could do this yourwife and beyond apologetic about it. Love
me or hate me, um,you know, you still can't stop me.
(21:41):
So that's that's that was, Thatwas the deal. That was our
deal. Let me Jaalen obviously avery so. I mean, I think
a lot of times Jayalen is thebest in the business when it comes to
h commentary as an NBA commentary workingwith ESPN, Chris Webber beg your pardon,
(22:04):
worked with TNT for a long time, equally as good. Juwan Howard
went on to be successful as agreat player all Star teams, went on
to be successful as a head coach. Does any of that surprise you when
you think about their personalities when theywere sixteen, seventeen years old and you
(22:26):
hit it right on the head.They're doing exactly what we joked about.
Jalen talked so much right, hehas a perfect job for him. He
loved to talk about yeahs all hedid. He would get newspapers, he
would read football, basketball, baseball, hockey. He did it all,
soccer, everything. Jalen was thatguy. Yeah, Juwan we used to
(22:52):
in our freshman year, before weeven barely got on campus, we used
to joke about how discipline Juwan was. This is Juan was my roommate.
We would get up at six thirtyin the morning. He would iron his
pants crease down the middle every day. Now you know how it is hard
(23:17):
through were walking through four piece snowice, sliding on ice. The hawk
is out creases in his pants everysingle day. That's that's and and so
we would always call him, youknow, the mature one out the bunch,
and uh yeah. So he hadthe characteristics of that. And Chris
(23:40):
as well. Chris is very ChrisMattie, Chris is so talented. Um,
Chris can sing, Chris can rap. Chris had albums that I don't
know people remember that, and theywere very good. They had some very
good albums. He got some cameoswere corrupted dog pounding on him. He's
he's he's highly intelligent. J isvery talented. So I'm not absolutely all
(24:03):
of you guys, though, Iwould say all of you guys are highly
intelligent. And as far as Chrisis concerned. He's in the Hall of
Fame. He's the only one outof that five that's in the Hall of
Fame right now. And if youdon't believe how intelligent this guy is,
just go and google his retirement speech. I don't know if you've heard it
(24:26):
or you've watched it or not.Yeah, it was absolutely amazing. You
know, like when things give yougoose bumps, right, you're feeling it,
and I felt his retirement speech man, the Hall of Fame speech begging
pardon to my core. All ofus at the DUB Network would like to
thank the crew at Herman Marshall Whiskeyfor sponsoring another episode of Harp's Court.
(24:52):
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It's a great place to pop onin, enjoy one of their specialty drinks
or two, or for hosting specialoccasions like birthday parties, mixers, weddings
or receptions. Thank you so much, Herman Marshall. I'm so happy you
came on. I want to commendyou once again. I want to move
man shift gears a little bit andtalk about the stage of the NBA right
(25:41):
now. Surely the talent, there'sno question about it. There's a lot
of talent in this league. Whatkind of hands do you think the league
is in as we come towards theNBA finals for two thousand and three.
So as far as where uh Isee the NBA is. You know,
(26:03):
you got older players for instance inLebron and Steph Curry who may be transitioning
out. Um, you know,I still think we have formidable players.
You know, Jannis is still youknow young. Uh you look at you
know the Jason Tatum and um JalenBrown. Uh, you know, still
(26:26):
young players who I think will berepresenting the league. And as a host,
you know, you gotta look atFox's Sacramento. Uh, look at
the you know it's a host ofyoung, talented uh uh players across the
league that you know, me beinga fan, it's it's good to you
(26:48):
know, step away from the game. When you're playing the game, you're
not necessarily a fan because you're involvedwith the new shaw of it. But
when you retire, you step away, you become a fan again. And
so for me, I enjoy uhthe attrition. I enjoy the drama and
all of that behind it, thestorylines, uh, you know, the
(27:15):
culture where everybody comes from, becauselike you talked before, Hart, you
know, we come from multiple multiculturalbackgrounds. We know multicultural people absolutely,
um absolutely in the NBA and theworkplace. I love seeing that and I
love seeing the representation of the sportthat we love across the country. So
(27:37):
I think it's in a great place. I think it's it's time for We're
coming to a time where it's goingto be a transition in uh the and
some new stars, some up andcoming stars. So I'm excited to see
who, absolutely who who that's goingto be. You know, you make
(27:57):
interesting points. I completely concur withyou that the league is definitely in a
good place, will always be.And I you know, the late David
Stern I think deserves a lot ofcredit because he implemented the foreigners and the
overseas part of everything right now.And if you look around, you have
(28:22):
so many different players that didn't growup in the United States that came from
you know, France and Nigeria andall of these different places, Slovenia,
you name it. But look atLuca, you know, right here in
Dallas, Luca exactly. And Ithink that is what has I wouldn't say
(28:45):
saved the NBA. And you cantell me how you feel, but that's
what's really put the NBA in aposition to be successful I think for years
and years to come. I thinkAdam Silver is a player's commissioner and does
a fantastic job of hearing the voicesof the players. And I'm with you
(29:10):
on it. Man. Let's talkabout Job real quick and his situation.
I mean, people are beating it, you know, beating it down of
course, and we were all youngones. What if you could give Job
a paragraph, what would the paragraphbe? Paragraph would be real sweet and
simple, Jah joh. You're inthe position to change generations, your family's
(29:38):
trajectory for generations. I would takea step back, forget remember all the
hard work of sacrifice you took foryou to get to that point, and
understand that something as insignificant or asminor as waving a gun even though it's
(30:07):
not illegal, can cost you yourlivelihood. And so although it may not
be fair, you have to understandthat you are in different microscope and with
great powers, and the things thatyou are are the platforms that you're allowed
(30:34):
to, uh to, to beup on. Is is something that you
you know, you should cherish,you should you should be able to.
You know, for instance, JimBrown, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Muhammad Ali,
Jim in peace, rest in peace. And that's why I'm bringing them
(30:57):
up because because to me, Idon't see I don't see those guys doing
those things. And if he's theguy that I believe him to be,
that I see his you know.For obviously I think he is to get
(31:17):
to this point, um, Ithink that he just needs to just to
just to take a step back,um and and and check his surroundings and
check the things that he's doing.It's it's it's like you said, we
were young and dumb, like wedid something. I looked back at the
(31:37):
means that I did where I thoughtI wasn't doing anything. Amen, Amen,
you know I was just telling itmy boys. The other day,
we did some things we shouldn't behere today. Amen. So, um
so, I don't want to comehard down hard on him, but you
know, I just hope that hegets this message, which I believe he
(32:00):
will. And and just take astep back. Stay off social media,
number one, That's what I woulddo. I would stay off social media.
Yeah, And I don't believe init other than doing my podcast.
Well you know, it's it's theworld we're in, so we have to
do, you know. But umyeah, I would take a step back
and and and just kind of organicallystart to get back to the things that
(32:24):
surround what I'm known for, whichis basketball and all that other stuff.
Yo. Put that go underground ifyou absolutely have to do it, and
make sure that you know there areno cameras, right. I mean,
(32:45):
you said it really well, becausethere are. You talked about Jim Brown,
you talked about Muhammad Ali kareem updo with your ball, and I
think those guys, they they pavedthe way, I mean, really paved
the way for us to be freeto make the salaries that some of these
guys have. I mean, somebodyhad to stand in the gap to make
(33:07):
what's going on salary wise possible.And it was Jim Brown, and it
was Bill Russell, and it wasMuhammad Ali and it was Kareem And I
want to commend those guys, Imean, right here, right now,
what they did. And I thinkthe least that this generation of players who
(33:28):
are fantastic players. I mean,well, you can't argue the talent level
in the NBA right NBA right now, because I think we have some of
the greatest basketball. You want tosee, um the playoffs, we got
on their way. We got anAC in Miami and you know everybody,
(33:52):
yes, yes, and Milwaukee andlook where they're at right did that?
So with that being said, youplayed right into where I want to go.
Who do you expect? Do youexpect Boston to make history or do
you expect Miami to make some noise? Part This was hard for me because
(34:19):
my heart it's with Miami because JuwanYeah, yeah, you know, yes,
supposed Riley Leys yea. I haveand I have and I have.
I have a regret and I don'tever you know what, this is the
first time I'm gonna share this.I've never shared this before. Heard that's
what we need. Regret not signingwith Miami when I was down there,
(34:46):
and they know what I'm talking about. In ninety eight, I was down
in there. They came into thelocker room and gave me a contract and
I was like, I'm gonna wait, I'm gonna hold I'll see what the
offers. I get it, andI got out of the offers. But
then the lockout happened, and ityes, I remember everything. Yea.
(35:07):
Now I should have took that contrack. And that's that's that I have.
And and and you know why Ithink you should have because you are a
pat Riley type guy. You arehard working human being. Yeah, that
(35:28):
was the perfect place for me.It was set up perfectly for me.
And that's and I say that nowbecause I watched Jimmy Butler and that crew
and I was like, oh mygod, that's it right there. But
um yeah, that um yeah,My my heart is with my Ami.
(35:49):
And I really do hate to saythis, and not because I don't believe
it, but I think it's apossibility that Boston might be the first in
history to pull this off. Iknow, I hate it, I really
hate it. I do. Doyou realize, Jimmy, you're talking about
Hills. I'm getting chills right nowsaying that because I don't want I actually
(36:14):
don't want them to, but Idon't know. It's tough. And I'm
listening to Spo and I'm listening toJimmy and I'm like, I understand,
But we will see, We'll see, you know, we'll definitely obviously,
you know, they play better athome, and I think, you know,
Miami's gonna shoot better, and Ithink they will play better defense.
(36:37):
But overall, I think Boston isjust they have more talent. You know.
Well, I'm gonna be real withyou, man. I love New
York. Played two and a halfthree years in New York. But here's
the ticker. Here's the deal.When I was in New York, I
played for Pat Rowley, who waspresident of operations, who's running the Miami
(36:57):
Heat. And when I tell you, as hard as it was to be
in New York playing under a guylike Rales who doesn't cut any corners whatsoever.
Okay, you you you're either inor you out. It's you.
It's us against the world. Iwould never root against a guy like Pat
Rowley because I know how much heputs in twos right, being successful,
(37:22):
sleepless and you. You are right, heart, you are you can absolutely
right, you are a thousand percentright. Thank you for getting my ryan
right. I'm going to Miami.Yeah, I'm going. I'm going all
the way I grew up in WestDo you right? You are right?
Yeah? I up again. Yeah, I'm not going against Pat Raley.
(37:45):
I'm not going against both um Boston. I'm sorry. But you guys that
won enough championships, you want tosee them as an AC get it,
get there. You don't want tosee and I want to see them match
up against Denver like I want tosee how because again it's the same situation.
(38:06):
You know, they don't really matchup well with them, but I
want to see that. I wantto see how they scheme that. Yeah,
I'm gonna get you out of onthis one. So obviously we know
that Denver is coming out of theWestern Conference, and just what are you
(38:27):
what's your thoughts Jimmy unload management becausethat's a new thing. It's a hot
topic in the NBA as far asuh guys not playing every single night.
What are your thoughts on that?Okay, Now, I was just talking
to my pops about this the otherday. It's hard for me to imagine
(38:50):
wanting to sit out. Well,I want to play all the time.
I you know, how well evenif we're hurt, we want to play
that you gotta you gotta make becausenot right, That's what I'm saying.
I played her. I watched youhard. I know you played her.
I know I know and and andso to me, it's just a lot
(39:12):
of guys did right. And itwas cultural too and also like today,
and that's why I like today.I feel it makes me feel like the
guys don't really love the game asmuch like they could either be like,
oh, I'm good, Like I'lljust sit on the side and you know,
cheer and and and and and andyou know, and wear my fashion
gear and that's that's that's that's Butas far as getting out there and laying
(39:39):
it out for your brother and beingthere, you know, thicking thin nah,
that that's it's just different to me, is it? And to me
that also has a different mentality ofwhat I'm playing, Like like I'm you
know, if I'm going out likeI'm about to dive through this backpost,
(40:00):
you channeling on the wing and youain't really you know, giving it like
it's gonna it's some problems. It'sgonna be some problems along the bottom line.
Bottom line for me, man,if you can play, you play,
and I'll give you a quick storyon why. And this was late
in my career that I would neverif I was able to play, not
(40:23):
play. So I'm in Orlando.Trump Daily is a coach. Who's there?
Penny Hardaway is there? Ronnie Psyche, Gerald wilkins Um just that that
year. This was to a nineteenninety nine moving towards two thousand, ninety
(40:43):
eight ninety nine, when I playedin Orlando, I was in the starting
lineup. I was a starter.Mark Price was my backup at the time
under coach Daily. And I gothurt. I got a knee. I
got a knee in my in mymeeting or in my quad, and you
know that injury. That's a verydifficult injury to come come back from.
(41:06):
And it took me a long time. Well, while I was hurt,
Mark Price stepped in for me,and we were both at the latter part
of our careers. I know Iwas. I can't speak for Mark,
who is one of my favorite guysthat I played against. Mark took over
the duties as point guard, onthat team. Right, we won eight
(41:29):
straight games while I was out,and you know the rest of the story.
I never got my job back becauseI don't care how good you are,
how successful you've been, especially whenyou're dealing with a veteran coach and
the late great Chuck Daily Detroit twotime champion. When you're dealing with those
(41:49):
kind of coaches, they're gonna gowith what's working now. You know,
the league doesn't wait on you whenyou're out. You know, guys sit
out. Jay Crowder for example,Love Jay, that's my guy. But
I think he did himself for thisservice when he didn't play for Phoenix Phoenix
the last couple of years for theSuns, right, he wanted out of
(42:09):
there. And I would advise anyyoung player in this league, man play
because it's a short business. Butif you can play, don't don't play.
Make up your mind one day outof you and it's only man.
That's four fifty, four hundred andfifty players league, and I want to
(42:31):
touch every year. That's just yourcompetitiveness and just like the goal of actually
just being there. You know.You know, my career was short lived,
and every day when I was outthere, I was like, Yo,
this is a dream. Like thereI w a ball like they they
(42:52):
listen and if you know, likeespecially when I was in Toronto, I
was like, yo, practice ismy game. I'm game. I mean,
especially being young, because I rememberbeing the same way when I was
a rookie. I used practice asmy game. And whoever, Brad Davis
(43:13):
is one of my that's my guy. I love Brad, but he was
gonna get it. I was comingforward when I was when I was a
rookie because I wanted to be onthe floor. I was eleven picking the
draft and I thought I should havebeen on the foot, you know what
I mean. So I was layingit out and our first team in eighty
three eighty four for the Dallas Mavericks. Let me get this out out the
(43:35):
way. Our second team beat ourfirst team all the time. And I
hope Marca Guard sees this. AndI know I'm here from him because he
totally disagree. He row both.We do a segment though Jimmy fact or
fiction on harps coorting question is factor fiction the old school the eighties,
(44:00):
in the nineties, better better leaguenow or in the eighties of the nights,
What what's your take, Wait,better league as far as games,
talent, all of it fiction nota fact. You think the guys now
(44:22):
are better? No, no,no, the guys the guys back then
are better. All facts. Yeah, fact, that's that's a fact.
What what what made the league betterthan in your opinion? Well, I
believe in my opinion what made theleague better was I think it was more
(44:45):
detail into the intricacy of of likethe game, UM, the breakdown of
the game and how the game hasplayed, UM, the nuances of the
game. UM. The style wasdefinitely different, and I think the players
(45:07):
talked about that. Yeah. AndI think the players were different. Because
we want to say that the playerstoday are athletic. I think they're I
think they may be slightly more athletic. It may be bigger because of the
regiment, they eat better, theystart younger. You know, it was
a little different. Error. Butas far as skill level, I don't
(45:30):
think it compares. I think theplayers in the eighties nineties skill level is
much higher, for instance, andbasketball IQ for instance, I watched these
guys today and I watched them dribblearound and get to the basket to kick
it for three. That drives meinsane hard. I'm like, yo,
(45:52):
unless you need that three for theend of the quarter, tie to go
up whatever, take the lay up. That shot would be there later.
You could just kill them with layups. Yeah, and and so and
so, Like there are certain otherparts of the game that I'm like,
(46:15):
you know, in the eighties andnineties, it just wouldn't fly. You'd
be sitting on the bench, youknow, coming down just you know,
shooting threes everybody's possessions. Where there'sfive straight threes, nobody's really trying to
force the issue to get to thebasket. That's the difference in the game.
The game was like you had toexecute and every even though there was
(46:37):
no uh sexy offenses, everybody ranthe same place. You know what I'm
saying. It's not sexy now either, right now you try to make it
roll now, right, but no, it's picking roll now. It's correct.
So yeah, but but threes overtwo lem skill, that's that's the
(47:00):
difference to me. Yeah, soyou are magic over Lebron for sure.
I'm a magic over the Okay,I'm sorry, Michael Jordan, magic too.
I'm a magic too. Magic.Yeah, I don't and I appreciate
Lebron. I appreciate everything Lebron does, especially off the court. But if
(47:23):
I was starting my team Lebron andI got Sam picks, Lebron is not
even in my top ten. Who'syour top five? I got Magic Jordan
uh wilt Um. Yeah, Igot one hundred and fifty rebounds in the
(47:45):
game. Come on, man,we'll have fifty thirty twenty twenty and ten.
Like we're living in an era.We live in an era now though
of numbers, And like I saidearlier, I'm not totally against numbers that
danger. It makes sense and alot of situation, it really does,
(48:07):
and it can be changer, yeah, and it can be dangerous, no,
no, no doubt about it there, because you gotta have a problem
about with with the with the issuethey're trying to have, like Lebron leap
frog and like when did he becomebetter than Kobe? Right? And and
and then and then okay, that'sanother podcast, right and then and then
(48:30):
Okay, if m J is thegoal and Kareem still had the scoring title,
how does Lebron become the goal justfrom getting the scoring title? Right?
So that's what that's it. AndI don't want to disrespect Lebron And
that's why I don't know and Iknow you're not, because Lebron is the
(48:52):
best or one of the best inthis error by far him um Uh Janice
and Uh and staff to me orin a class and Kauhi when Kawuhi is
is healthy, healthy and playing.Yeah, you know they're they're class might
(49:15):
be in there if you win,you know, but whatever, Like yeah,
you you you're you're a lot youngerthan I am. And you didn't
play against Michael Jordan like I playedagainst Michael Jordan. Oh, I know
you did, but I'm saying Iplayed, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, we had a lot.I mean I was in New York,
I was in Dallas. And whenI tell you there's no way in hell
(49:37):
that Michael Jordan is not I'm noteven talking about Lebron j I'm talking about
Michael Jordan. And when I tellyou that when you got ready to with
if with Mike, right, youhad to tie your damn shoes up tight
as hell, right because Mike,Mike, Mike didn't play. You know,
(50:00):
everybody's around here about this and aboutthat. We can stop that nonsense,
because Michael Jordan is the freaking goatif there's a goat, you know,
I don't believe in all of thatthat that goat shit. I mean
every day people, he doesn't evencall himself to go Yeah you don't say
that, that's part, but that'sbut that's your game speaks for you know
(50:21):
how it is hard You ain't saynobody gotta ever say y'all. You don't
ever to tell nobody about your gameright right when you don't know your games
shit, Man, Michael Jordan wouldwould pull your heart out of your chest,
you understand, And just the wayhe went about his business man,
(50:43):
Michael is second to none. Heis not second when it comes to being
the goat. Man. I'm notgonna keep you any more longer. You'll
never know. You'll never about thisall day, all day long. We'll
do it again. Sometimes we'll geton. Hopefully bring your guys, man,
if you can get Jalen and Chrisand all those guys to join the
(51:07):
hardcore weeks ago when yeah they comedown, Yeah sure, yeah, catch
you out for sure. I haveJalen and I can share a few laughs.
When he first got in the league, I had to put him in
check. A little bit as aplayer, but much loved man. Continued
success to you and thank you forthe memories. Man, I greatly appreciate
you' I'll be in touch very soonanytime. Appreciate harp scored y'all check it out.
Hello, y'all, Welcome to Harp'sCourt. I'm your host, Derek Harper,
and man, you're not gonna believethe guy that I have as my
guest this afternoon. I am honored, excited all of the above because this
guy was a member of the fivefive, I mean ninety one, probably
one of the greatest and I'm notexaggerating when I see say, greatest classes
(00:27):
of college hosts of all time.Jimmy King, Man, how are you
they originated as far as Kings areconcerned. How are you doing, brother?
Thanks for joining me, my man, d Hart, how are you
doing. Thanks for having me mybrother, Yes, sir, it's been
a long time. I appreciate youhaving me, Yes, sir, man.
And it's amazing that I'm sitting herein plain Though I don't know where
(00:50):
you are, I know you're fromthis area. But everything for you,
man, Okay, everything for you. Jimmy started right here, right at
plain O East High School. Sinceif you on high school, you had
a great career in high school.But from there, man, you ventured
off to the Midwest and you wentto the University of Michigan and ninety one,
(01:14):
I think it was ninety one,if I'm not. If my memory
serves me right, you ventured offto the Big Ten to play at the
University of Michigan with some fabulous guys. Man, I just want you to
share with me the viewers, whatin the hell what kind of experience was
that, man, Because you guysare it's incredible. You guys are super
(01:38):
human guys when it comes to collegebasketball. Well, thank you for that,
for that love. And but youknow, for us, it was
just it was really having sent Wedidn't we didn't really plan it. It
was something that kind of formulated,just came together. But when it came
(01:59):
together, Juwan Howard, who's youknow, the head coach of the University
of Michigan currently, was really thespearhead of recruiting. So it was really
a precursor to what he does now. He recruited us because he was the
first to sign, and he wasrelentless, like he I remember coming home
(02:22):
from playing OUIs coming home from practiceand he would be on the phone,
um you know as he finished practice, uh walking home through the cold of
Chicago. So um, you know, he was very relentless. Some days
I would skip, uh, youknow, his phone call because I was
like, man, I want totalk to him to day. I'm just
(02:43):
trying to get home. It stillsomething and and but he was that guy,
so U Juwan was really the catalyst. I signed second. Ray Jackson,
who's out of Austin, Texas,signed third. UM Jalen and Chris
Jalen Road and Chris Webber signed fourthand fifth, both out of Detroit.
(03:05):
Right. And that's the reason whyUm, Chris wore number five or number
four and Jalen wore number five becauseChris side four. And it's great,
that's great information, great insight.Carry on, this is your show,
brother, I want to hear morewhen when it comes to all of all
(03:27):
of that King. But well,so you know a lot of people think
that the names, the names carrya class like that. I mean,
you guys are famous for so much, man, the baggy shorts, the
black socks, the black shoes,I mean, all of that played it.
You hated Duke, you know,and I know hate it strong.
I don't meet it in a viciousway, but there was there was there
(03:50):
was something about Duke that you guysdidn't didn't care for. But I think
a lot of people think Chris Webberwhen they think Michigan and the Fat five.
They think Juan Howard, of course, because he did the WAP.
Remember the day, Yeah, yeah, the cabbage patch beg your pardon the
cabbage patch. That's exactly right.The WAP would have been cooler though,
(04:12):
But yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. But at any event, people think
that when when you say fab five, Ray Jackson, I know what Ray
is. He's a coach now,so of course he loves the game.
Um, Juwan, you talked aboutyourself. I think people automatically just kind
(04:32):
of cater to Chris Webber and JuwanHoward, the best two of the five
guys. What do you think manbrought you guys together other than the recruiting
from Juwan Howard, Because to bea powerhouse in college basketball for as long
as you guys were there, ithad to be some little nuggets that really
(04:55):
allowed you guys to flourish as ateam. It was really the desire that
we all had. We wanted tobe the best. We wanted to win
the championship. We wanted to representour families and our abilities. We knew
(05:15):
that we were good individually. That'show we got to the University of Michigan.
That's how we qualified for the Universityof Michigan because as you can see
now you got people that's in atransfer reportal right now that jumped to Michigan
but have to jump back out becausethey don't qualify. And see that's another
side of that's another side of youknow, of the student athlete. We
(05:39):
were more than athletes. We werestudents too, So that I think was
it was overlooked because we were studentsof the game. So that when we
got together, we wanted to makesure that we could we were able to
fit our pieces together there to makeone hole. You know, we weren't
(06:01):
five individuals, and that's why wewe we thought, you know, especially
you know how the game was playedback then hard you know it was inside
out, yes, and you know, you know we it was. It
was. It was a lot ofintimidation, It was a lot of physicalness,
It was a lot of banging.So of course you look to Chris
and you looked at juwan Um asanchors in the middle, and they could
(06:25):
play off each other and raid Uhand Jalen and myself can just kind of
float around a perimeter, slashing cuts, get it get in where we fit
in. And so Uh you know, we were kind of playing position list
basketball as it is today back then, and I think that was our advantage.
(06:47):
If you could compare five guys nowin the past, in the NBA
or in college basketball, is thereanything or anybody that you would pair the
Fab five two? Um, Iknow we wanted to be well. I
(07:08):
say it was a mix of afew teams. One five Slammer Jamma for
Houston, just the Houston eighty threeKimola Juana, you know he has no
uh yeah, I remember that team. The great Gray Guy was a coach
(07:28):
there, right, that's right,Yeah, Gray Lewis was a Gray guy.
It was Ray Guy. It wasguy yeah yeah, and and um
and then um uh the uh Georgetownteams, the John Thompson lad teams with
Patrick Ewing um uh and and uhMichael Jackson and and and and Reggie and
(07:50):
those guys so uh and then itwas and then it was the U N
L V Y Johnson Great and Denyand Augment uh Scurry the side start so
so and and and so those werethe kind of the influences that we had
(08:13):
in college basketball. Um. Itwasn't necessarily pro, although we did have
pro guys that we liked like IsaiahMagic, you know bird you um,
you know a guire, you knowwhat I'm saying, Like y'all y'all were
my our guys, so um,you know, you know, we wanted
(08:39):
to build off of the things thatwe watched you guys do and and and
we wanted to you know, kindof build a steppingstone and keep the trajectory
going in that in that way thatwe felt was the right way to play
the game. Man, what whatyou know when when when you're different,
and clearly the Fat five was different, right, I mean, you change
(09:01):
the culture. Like I talked aboutthe black socks, the black shoes,
the baggy the baggy gear, uniformsand things of that nature. Of course
that put you on under a lotof scrutiny if you would from the national
base. And I remember it likeit was yesterday. I mean I remember
when Chris called the time out andyou didn't have a timeout and all of
(09:24):
those different things. If you wouldjust a little king elaborate man on some
of the things away from basketball thatyou were forced to deal with us,
That's a great one, hard Likeyou know, there were so many other
things, just for example, um, in the documentary. The documentary we
(09:46):
ESPN thirty for thirty we discussed Isaw it wad like we got Okay.
So they were alumni from the Universityof Michigan, and you know, back
then it was a techn knowledgy.We didn't have you know, you couldn't
Yeah, we couldn't do this.So everything was handwritten. You know,
(10:07):
everything was you know, was wasdigital, uh analog. So uh it
was professors, uh, business CEO's, business owners, UM CEOs, prominent
people, UM politicians, all typesof people, all different types of people
(10:28):
who are supposed to be uh pillarsin the community, sending nasty letters talking
about they didn't want to see fiveniggas on the court. They're from the
University of Michigan, probably signing alarmtheir year and everything. So those are
(10:48):
the things that I think we're madeto my heart. Yeah, and I
mean, you know we're kids too, you know, we're kids. So
you know, we we internalized thatand used to forge a relationship with all
the other players too, not justthe black players, but even the white
(11:09):
players, like we're part of thistogether and we're gonna if we're gonna,
you know, do this, thenwe need you guys. On board and
if you got our backs, wegot your back, um. And and
that's why I really applaud Steve Fisherbecause Steve endured a lot of those things
that I don't think if we wereanywhere else, it wouldn't have been.
(11:33):
We wouldn't have done back. Wewouldn't we wouldn't have been able to do
what he did. Talk about Fisher, I mean he had a tough job
in himself. I mean you justtalked about what you talked about, and
he was the head. He wasthe head of the Snake. He was
a guy that you guys depended onfor for for for leadership and for direction
(11:56):
and guidance as a head coach.I'm sure your relationship today is as strong
as it was when you decided toleave play on West or play on East.
I'm sorry that might start trouble,but I'm sure the decision you made
had a lot to do with him. Talk about him as a man and
a guy that that led that Fabfive team. Absolutely, And this is
(12:20):
this is I could summon up foryou just like this. Hart. You
know you've been through it, youknow the game, you know how it
is when you're being recruited, yourtop guard in the country, you know
what it is. So everywhere I'min, everywhere I've been, you know,
there there there may or may nothave been a bag when Michigan came.
(12:41):
When Michigan came, they didn't promiseme anything. They promised me a
good education, and they promised methat I would become you know, someone
that uh, that would be viablewithin in the community. And that was
what separated Steve Fisher's approach versus everyoneelse off. Top Number one was integrity
(13:05):
because as far as you know,like we know, in this game of
life, if you if you can'tshake someone's integrity or if your integrity precedes
you, then you know, that'sthat's that's that's that's that's more than an
enough th uh the most have whenthey before they you know, you are
(13:28):
able to walk into a room oror have a conversation. So that stuck
out to me more than anything.And what also stuck out to me is
the way that he approached He neverhe always approached me as a young man,
(13:50):
not a boy, not a child, you know, not a kid.
He treated me, He treated melike a man, and and and
and every time he addressed me,he addressed me by my name or by
uh uh, or he called mea man. You know, he addressed
(14:15):
me as It sounds like nothing,Jimmy King, it sounds like nothing other
than respect, definitely. And andand on top of that was the way
that they taught us the game.They taught us the game. Um,
the way they held us accountable forgoing to class. Um, there was
no you know, nobody taking yournotes. There was no skipping school.
(14:41):
You know, it was it wasit was to be accountable. It was
you had to be accountable. Youhad to do your work and uh and
if you didn't, there were repercustionslike there were there was no favoritisms.
Yeah. So so that to meis what set the tone. And uh
we learned from that and we wereable to internalize that as well and grow
(15:03):
and use that as our you know, kind of foundations. Yeah. I
think automatically people think King that yourbest player is the leader of your team.
Out of that five guys, Iknow Ray a little bit. I
know he was hard knows. Iknow he defended a bunch of positions.
(15:28):
I know he had that dog mentalityas a player, just like you,
just like the whole fat five familyhad. But if you had to pick
one guy, one pacific guy,right, who would you consider the leader
on that five the fat five squadin ninety one when you guys were freshmans
at the University of Michigan. IfI had depict one guy because you have
(15:56):
leadership probosophical, it's tough. Becausewe were all leaders in our own right.
Like I was a quiet leader onthe court, but in the huddle,
I was the one doing the talking. So like if you ever see
us huddle in the hotel, Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's different kind
(16:18):
of leaders man, They're different kindof correct. But Jalen was probably the
most outspoken, the most demonstrative,Chris was the most physical. Juwan was
the most probably stepped out because ofhis work ethic and hard nosed toughness,
Me because my athletic ability, andand Ray because of his defensive hustle uh
(16:44):
utility type mentality and skill. Sowe although we were all of those things,
the things that we needed each otherto do and we decided to do
when we were in those back roomsin those hotels discussing how we're gonna this
work, we decided, that's yourrole, this is what I need from
you every night. I need thatI didn't get this from you. And
(17:07):
if you if for whatever reason wedon't get it, we can supplement.
But this is what we have tohave. And and that's how I'm starting,
you know, um, knowing thatall of us can play all the
roles. That was the uniqueness ofit. We could reap it, all
play the points. We can allbring up the ball. We can all
(17:30):
you know, stand in the cornerand be the spot up shooter. We
can all post up on the block, we can all slash through the lane.
So you know, I think alot of times we actually limited ourselves
just because we were so far ahead. It was just like, we can't
(17:51):
do all these things even though wecould it, you know, even though
we could, but it was justthe way the game was. And uh
but but I do know, Ido. I do feel like if if
we came through this era, it'dbe it would be something else, like
because the way that we talk aboutthe way that we talk about it now,
(18:14):
UM, I think that yeah,m hm, so you you you
you just feel like you came upshort. I mean, let let let's
face that, too, weren't ableto get over the hump, as they
say, and when when that nationalchampionship, what's the one thing when you
(18:37):
look back at that journey together asfive guys, Because of course people lives.
When you're in college, your ambitionis clearly to be an NBA basketball
player. I've heard Chris Webber saythat before. I've heard Jalen echo the
same sentiments as well as yourself.Everybody. Everybody's goal is to get back
or get to the NBA, getto that next level and and and last
(19:02):
for a long time. What's theone thing you think that kept you from
being crowned champions in college basketball?Should have gave me the ball? I
wanted to hear you you see mewant to y'all raised me, y'all raise
(19:23):
me, I said with yall sinceI was that's what I wanted to,
you know, you know hard theyshould have gave me the ball. That's
what I wanted to hear. It'sincredible, man, I just followed that
that error, man, it was. It gave me those bumps. Man.
(19:45):
I'm telling you, when you didwhen you feel short, I really
felt some type of way, youknow what I mean. I was really
rooting for the uniqueness of the riverreason I would. So I'm telling about
myself because you know, there's alot of hate relationship to the big tents,
right, That's right, Yeah,that's right. No, but on
(20:06):
the real man, I honestly Icommend you guys man on changing the culture
of basketball from just black and whiteto being yourself, being authentic and and
going for it, you know whatI mean. And I mean how you
guys that young you talked about beingbeing kids at the time, How you
(20:30):
guys handle that. I think youguys will hold on too for the rest
of your life. So I'm gonnaI'm gonna move on from that. You
can, you can comment on that, but it had to be difficult.
All I can say really is comingup short. All I had to say
is that you know, the onething is is this, you know,
we we we all also came fromstrong black families with mothers and fathers.
(20:57):
Yeah, and and if mothers andfathers were home, we had grandmothers,
we had aunt's uncles, we hadpeople in the neighborhood, we had the
community support. And so that iskind of the mentality that we had coming
in, is that we have tocarry that type of commitment and support and
(21:18):
unity on. So that that's reallywhat our mantra or you know what really
hurt us as far as not reallygetting to the pinnacle because we wanted to
show everybody you could do this yourwife and beyond apologetic about it. Love
me or hate me, um,you know, you still can't stop me.
(21:41):
So that's that's that was, Thatwas the deal. That was our
deal. Let me Jaalen obviously avery so. I mean, I think
a lot of times Jayalen is thebest in the business when it comes to
h commentary as an NBA commentary workingwith ESPN, Chris Webber beg your pardon,
(22:04):
worked with TNT for a long time, equally as good. Juwan Howard
went on to be successful as agreat player all Star teams, went on
to be successful as a head coach. Does any of that surprise you when
you think about their personalities when theywere sixteen, seventeen years old and you
(22:26):
hit it right on the head.They're doing exactly what we joked about.
Jalen talked so much right, hehas a perfect job for him. He
loved to talk about yeahs all hedid. He would get newspapers, he
would read football, basketball, baseball, hockey. He did it all,
soccer, everything. Jalen was thatguy. Yeah, Juwan we used to
(22:52):
in our freshman year, before weeven barely got on campus, we used
to joke about how discipline Juwan was. This is Juan was my roommate.
We would get up at six thirtyin the morning. He would iron his
pants crease down the middle every day. Now you know how it is hard
(23:17):
through were walking through four piece snowice, sliding on ice. The hawk
is out creases in his pants everysingle day. That's that's and and so
we would always call him, youknow, the mature one out the bunch,
and uh yeah. So he hadthe characteristics of that. And Chris
(23:40):
as well. Chris is very ChrisMattie, Chris is so talented. Um,
Chris can sing, Chris can rap. Chris had albums that I don't
know people remember that, and theywere very good. They had some very
good albums. He got some cameoswere corrupted dog pounding on him. He's
he's he's highly intelligent. J isvery talented. So I'm not absolutely all
(24:03):
of you guys, though, Iwould say all of you guys are highly
intelligent. And as far as Chrisis concerned. He's in the Hall of
Fame. He's the only one outof that five that's in the Hall of
Fame right now. And if youdon't believe how intelligent this guy is,
just go and google his retirement speech. I don't know if you've heard it
(24:26):
or you've watched it or not.Yeah, it was absolutely amazing. You
know, like when things give yougoose bumps, right, you're feeling it,
and I felt his retirement speech man, the Hall of Fame speech begging
pardon to my core. All ofus at the DUB Network would like to
thank the crew at Herman Marshall Whiskeyfor sponsoring another episode of Harp's Court.
(24:52):
Herman Marshall small Batch whiskey is handcraftedand award winning and whether it be There
Texas, Bourbon Texas, Right Texas, Single Mark, or they're blended bourbon
whiskey, all are built from thegrain up, just like good whiskey should
be. And make sure you checkout their amazing tasting room in Whiley,
Texas if you get a chance,I promise you you won't be disappointed.
(25:17):
It's a great place to pop onin, enjoy one of their specialty drinks
or two, or for hosting specialoccasions like birthday parties, mixers, weddings
or receptions. Thank you so much, Herman Marshall. I'm so happy you
came on. I want to commendyou once again. I want to move
man shift gears a little bit andtalk about the stage of the NBA right
(25:41):
now. Surely the talent, there'sno question about it. There's a lot
of talent in this league. Whatkind of hands do you think the league
is in as we come towards theNBA finals for two thousand and three.
So as far as where uh Isee the NBA is. You know,
(26:03):
you got older players for instance inLebron and Steph Curry who may be transitioning
out. Um, you know,I still think we have formidable players.
You know, Jannis is still youknow young. Uh you look at you
know the Jason Tatum and um JalenBrown. Uh, you know, still
(26:26):
young players who I think will berepresenting the league. And as a host,
you know, you gotta look atFox's Sacramento. Uh, look at
the you know it's a host ofyoung, talented uh uh players across the
league that you know, me beinga fan, it's it's good to you
(26:48):
know, step away from the game. When you're playing the game, you're
not necessarily a fan because you're involvedwith the new shaw of it. But
when you retire, you step away, you become a fan again. And
so for me, I enjoy uhthe attrition. I enjoy the drama and
all of that behind it, thestorylines, uh, you know, the
(27:15):
culture where everybody comes from, becauselike you talked before, Hart, you
know, we come from multiple multiculturalbackgrounds. We know multicultural people absolutely,
um absolutely in the NBA and theworkplace. I love seeing that and I
love seeing the representation of the sportthat we love across the country. So
(27:37):
I think it's in a great place. I think it's it's time for We're
coming to a time where it's goingto be a transition in uh the and
some new stars, some up andcoming stars. So I'm excited to see
who, absolutely who who that's goingto be. You know, you make
(27:57):
interesting points. I completely concur withyou that the league is definitely in a
good place, will always be.And I you know, the late David
Stern I think deserves a lot ofcredit because he implemented the foreigners and the
overseas part of everything right now.And if you look around, you have
(28:22):
so many different players that didn't growup in the United States that came from
you know, France and Nigeria andall of these different places, Slovenia,
you name it. But look atLuca, you know, right here in
Dallas, Luca exactly. And Ithink that is what has I wouldn't say
(28:45):
saved the NBA. And you cantell me how you feel, but that's
what's really put the NBA in aposition to be successful I think for years
and years to come. I thinkAdam Silver is a player's commissioner and does
a fantastic job of hearing the voicesof the players. And I'm with you
(29:10):
on it. Man. Let's talkabout Job real quick and his situation.
I mean, people are beating it, you know, beating it down of
course, and we were all youngones. What if you could give Job
a paragraph, what would the paragraphbe? Paragraph would be real sweet and
simple, Jah joh. You're inthe position to change generations, your family's
(29:38):
trajectory for generations. I would takea step back, forget remember all the
hard work of sacrifice you took foryou to get to that point, and
understand that something as insignificant or asminor as waving a gun even though it's
(30:07):
not illegal, can cost you yourlivelihood. And so although it may not
be fair, you have to understandthat you are in different microscope and with
great powers, and the things thatyou are are the platforms that you're allowed
(30:34):
to, uh to, to beup on. Is is something that you
you know, you should cherish,you should you should be able to.
You know, for instance, JimBrown, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Muhammad Ali,
Jim in peace, rest in peace. And that's why I'm bringing them
(30:57):
up because because to me, Idon't see I don't see those guys doing
those things. And if he's theguy that I believe him to be,
that I see his you know.For obviously I think he is to get
(31:17):
to this point, um, Ithink that he just needs to just to
just to take a step back,um and and and check his surroundings and
check the things that he's doing.It's it's it's like you said, we
were young and dumb, like wedid something. I looked back at the
(31:37):
means that I did where I thoughtI wasn't doing anything. Amen, Amen,
you know I was just telling itmy boys. The other day,
we did some things we shouldn't behere today. Amen. So, um
so, I don't want to comehard down hard on him, but you
know, I just hope that hegets this message, which I believe he
(32:00):
will. And and just take astep back. Stay off social media,
number one, That's what I woulddo. I would stay off social media.
Yeah, And I don't believe init other than doing my podcast.
Well you know, it's it's theworld we're in, so we have to
do, you know. But umyeah, I would take a step back
and and and just kind of organicallystart to get back to the things that
(32:24):
surround what I'm known for, whichis basketball and all that other stuff.
Yo. Put that go underground ifyou absolutely have to do it, and
make sure that you know there areno cameras, right. I mean,
(32:45):
you said it really well, becausethere are. You talked about Jim Brown,
you talked about Muhammad Ali kareem updo with your ball, and I
think those guys, they they pavedthe way, I mean, really paved
the way for us to be freeto make the salaries that some of these
guys have. I mean, somebodyhad to stand in the gap to make
(33:07):
what's going on salary wise possible.And it was Jim Brown, and it
was Bill Russell, and it wasMuhammad Ali and it was Kareem And I
want to commend those guys, Imean, right here, right now,
what they did. And I thinkthe least that this generation of players who
(33:28):
are fantastic players. I mean,well, you can't argue the talent level
in the NBA right NBA right now, because I think we have some of
the greatest basketball. You want tosee, um the playoffs, we got
on their way. We got anAC in Miami and you know everybody,
(33:52):
yes, yes, and Milwaukee andlook where they're at right did that?
So with that being said, youplayed right into where I want to go.
Who do you expect? Do youexpect Boston to make history or do
you expect Miami to make some noise? Part This was hard for me because
(34:19):
my heart it's with Miami because JuwanYeah, yeah, you know, yes,
supposed Riley Leys yea. I haveand I have and I have.
I have a regret and I don'tever you know what, this is the
first time I'm gonna share this.I've never shared this before. Heard that's
what we need. Regret not signingwith Miami when I was down there,
(34:46):
and they know what I'm talking about. In ninety eight, I was down
in there. They came into thelocker room and gave me a contract and
I was like, I'm gonna wait, I'm gonna hold I'll see what the
offers. I get it, andI got out of the offers. But
then the lockout happened, and ityes, I remember everything. Yea.
(35:07):
Now I should have took that contrack. And that's that's that I have.
And and and you know why Ithink you should have because you are a
pat Riley type guy. You arehard working human being. Yeah, that
(35:28):
was the perfect place for me.It was set up perfectly for me.
And that's and I say that nowbecause I watched Jimmy Butler and that crew
and I was like, oh mygod, that's it right there. But
um yeah, that um yeah,My my heart is with my Ami.
(35:49):
And I really do hate to saythis, and not because I don't believe
it, but I think it's apossibility that Boston might be the first in
history to pull this off. Iknow, I hate it, I really
hate it. I do. Doyou realize, Jimmy, you're talking about
Hills. I'm getting chills right nowsaying that because I don't want I actually
(36:14):
don't want them to, but Idon't know. It's tough. And I'm
listening to Spo and I'm listening toJimmy and I'm like, I understand,
But we will see, We'll see, you know, we'll definitely obviously,
you know, they play better athome, and I think, you know,
Miami's gonna shoot better, and Ithink they will play better defense.
(36:37):
But overall, I think Boston isjust they have more talent. You know.
Well, I'm gonna be real withyou, man. I love New
York. Played two and a halfthree years in New York. But here's
the ticker. Here's the deal.When I was in New York, I
played for Pat Rowley, who waspresident of operations, who's running the Miami
(36:57):
Heat. And when I tell you, as hard as it was to be
in New York playing under a guylike Rales who doesn't cut any corners whatsoever.
Okay, you you you're either inor you out. It's you.
It's us against the world. Iwould never root against a guy like Pat
Rowley because I know how much heputs in twos right, being successful,
(37:22):
sleepless and you. You are right, heart, you are you can absolutely
right, you are a thousand percentright. Thank you for getting my ryan
right. I'm going to Miami.Yeah, I'm going. I'm going all
the way I grew up in WestDo you right? You are right?
Yeah? I up again. Yeah, I'm not going against Pat Raley.
(37:45):
I'm not going against both um Boston. I'm sorry. But you guys that
won enough championships, you want tosee them as an AC get it,
get there. You don't want tosee and I want to see them match
up against Denver like I want tosee how because again it's the same situation.
(38:06):
You know, they don't really matchup well with them, but I
want to see that. I wantto see how they scheme that. Yeah,
I'm gonna get you out of onthis one. So obviously we know
that Denver is coming out of theWestern Conference, and just what are you
(38:27):
what's your thoughts Jimmy unload management becausethat's a new thing. It's a hot
topic in the NBA as far asuh guys not playing every single night.
What are your thoughts on that?Okay, Now, I was just talking
to my pops about this the otherday. It's hard for me to imagine
(38:50):
wanting to sit out. Well,I want to play all the time.
I you know, how well evenif we're hurt, we want to play
that you gotta you gotta make becausenot right, That's what I'm saying.
I played her. I watched youhard. I know you played her.
I know I know and and andso to me, it's just a lot
(39:12):
of guys did right. And itwas cultural too and also like today,
and that's why I like today.I feel it makes me feel like the
guys don't really love the game asmuch like they could either be like,
oh, I'm good, Like I'lljust sit on the side and you know,
cheer and and and and and andyou know, and wear my fashion
gear and that's that's that's that's Butas far as getting out there and laying
(39:39):
it out for your brother and beingthere, you know, thicking thin nah,
that that's it's just different to me, is it? And to me
that also has a different mentality ofwhat I'm playing, Like like I'm you
know, if I'm going out likeI'm about to dive through this backpost,
(40:00):
you channeling on the wing and youain't really you know, giving it like
it's gonna it's some problems. It'sgonna be some problems along the bottom line.
Bottom line for me, man,if you can play, you play,
and I'll give you a quick storyon why. And this was late
in my career that I would neverif I was able to play, not
(40:23):
play. So I'm in Orlando.Trump Daily is a coach. Who's there?
Penny Hardaway is there? Ronnie Psyche, Gerald wilkins Um just that that
year. This was to a nineteenninety nine moving towards two thousand, ninety
(40:43):
eight ninety nine, when I playedin Orlando, I was in the starting
lineup. I was a starter.Mark Price was my backup at the time
under coach Daily. And I gothurt. I got a knee. I
got a knee in my in mymeeting or in my quad, and you
know that injury. That's a verydifficult injury to come come back from.
(41:06):
And it took me a long time. Well, while I was hurt,
Mark Price stepped in for me,and we were both at the latter part
of our careers. I know Iwas. I can't speak for Mark,
who is one of my favorite guysthat I played against. Mark took over
the duties as point guard, onthat team. Right, we won eight
(41:29):
straight games while I was out,and you know the rest of the story.
I never got my job back becauseI don't care how good you are,
how successful you've been, especially whenyou're dealing with a veteran coach and
the late great Chuck Daily Detroit twotime champion. When you're dealing with those
(41:49):
kind of coaches, they're gonna gowith what's working now. You know,
the league doesn't wait on you whenyou're out. You know, guys sit
out. Jay Crowder for example,Love Jay, that's my guy. But
I think he did himself for thisservice when he didn't play for Phoenix Phoenix
the last couple of years for theSuns, right, he wanted out of
(42:09):
there. And I would advise anyyoung player in this league, man play
because it's a short business. Butif you can play, don't don't play.
Make up your mind one day outof you and it's only man.
That's four fifty, four hundred andfifty players league, and I want to
(42:31):
touch every year. That's just yourcompetitiveness and just like the goal of actually
just being there. You know.You know, my career was short lived,
and every day when I was outthere, I was like, Yo,
this is a dream. Like thereI w a ball like they they
(42:52):
listen and if you know, likeespecially when I was in Toronto, I
was like, yo, practice ismy game. I'm game. I mean,
especially being young, because I rememberbeing the same way when I was
a rookie. I used practice asmy game. And whoever, Brad Davis
(43:13):
is one of my that's my guy. I love Brad, but he was
gonna get it. I was comingforward when I was when I was a
rookie because I wanted to be onthe floor. I was eleven picking the
draft and I thought I should havebeen on the foot, you know what
I mean. So I was layingit out and our first team in eighty
three eighty four for the Dallas Mavericks. Let me get this out out the
(43:35):
way. Our second team beat ourfirst team all the time. And I
hope Marca Guard sees this. AndI know I'm here from him because he
totally disagree. He row both.We do a segment though Jimmy fact or
fiction on harps coorting question is factor fiction the old school the eighties,
(44:00):
in the nineties, better better leaguenow or in the eighties of the nights,
What what's your take, Wait,better league as far as games,
talent, all of it fiction nota fact. You think the guys now
(44:22):
are better? No, no,no, the guys the guys back then
are better. All facts. Yeah, fact, that's that's a fact.
What what what made the league betterthan in your opinion? Well, I
believe in my opinion what made theleague better was I think it was more
(44:45):
detail into the intricacy of of likethe game, UM, the breakdown of
the game and how the game hasplayed, UM, the nuances of the
game. UM. The style wasdefinitely different, and I think the players
(45:07):
talked about that. Yeah. AndI think the players were different. Because
we want to say that the playerstoday are athletic. I think they're I
think they may be slightly more athletic. It may be bigger because of the
regiment, they eat better, theystart younger. You know, it was
a little different. Error. Butas far as skill level, I don't
(45:30):
think it compares. I think theplayers in the eighties nineties skill level is
much higher, for instance, andbasketball IQ for instance, I watched these
guys today and I watched them dribblearound and get to the basket to kick
it for three. That drives meinsane hard. I'm like, yo,
(45:52):
unless you need that three for theend of the quarter, tie to go
up whatever, take the lay up. That shot would be there later.
You could just kill them with layups. Yeah, and and so and
so, Like there are certain otherparts of the game that I'm like,
(46:15):
you know, in the eighties andnineties, it just wouldn't fly. You'd
be sitting on the bench, youknow, coming down just you know,
shooting threes everybody's possessions. Where there'sfive straight threes, nobody's really trying to
force the issue to get to thebasket. That's the difference in the game.
The game was like you had toexecute and every even though there was
(46:37):
no uh sexy offenses, everybody ranthe same place. You know what I'm
saying. It's not sexy now either, right now you try to make it
roll now, right, but no, it's picking roll now. It's correct.
So yeah, but but threes overtwo lem skill, that's that's the
(47:00):
difference to me. Yeah, soyou are magic over Lebron for sure.
I'm a magic over the Okay,I'm sorry, Michael Jordan, magic too.
I'm a magic too. Magic.Yeah, I don't and I appreciate
Lebron. I appreciate everything Lebron does, especially off the court. But if
(47:23):
I was starting my team Lebron andI got Sam picks, Lebron is not
even in my top ten. Who'syour top five? I got Magic Jordan
uh wilt Um. Yeah, Igot one hundred and fifty rebounds in the
(47:45):
game. Come on, man,we'll have fifty thirty twenty twenty and ten.
Like we're living in an era.We live in an era now though
of numbers, And like I saidearlier, I'm not totally against numbers that
danger. It makes sense and alot of situation, it really does,
(48:07):
and it can be changer, yeah, and it can be dangerous, no,
no, no doubt about it there, because you gotta have a problem
about with with the with the issuethey're trying to have, like Lebron leap
frog and like when did he becomebetter than Kobe? Right? And and
and then and then okay, that'sanother podcast, right and then and then
(48:30):
Okay, if m J is thegoal and Kareem still had the scoring title,
how does Lebron become the goal justfrom getting the scoring title? Right?
So that's what that's it. AndI don't want to disrespect Lebron And
that's why I don't know and Iknow you're not, because Lebron is the
(48:52):
best or one of the best inthis error by far him um Uh Janice
and Uh and staff to me orin a class and Kauhi when Kawuhi is
is healthy, healthy and playing.Yeah, you know they're they're class might
(49:15):
be in there if you win,you know, but whatever, Like yeah,
you you you're you're a lot youngerthan I am. And you didn't
play against Michael Jordan like I playedagainst Michael Jordan. Oh, I know
you did, but I'm saying Iplayed, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, we had a lot.I mean I was in New York,
I was in Dallas. And whenI tell you there's no way in hell
(49:37):
that Michael Jordan is not I'm noteven talking about Lebron j I'm talking about
Michael Jordan. And when I tellyou that when you got ready to with
if with Mike, right, youhad to tie your damn shoes up tight
as hell, right because Mike,Mike, Mike didn't play. You know,
(50:00):
everybody's around here about this and aboutthat. We can stop that nonsense,
because Michael Jordan is the freaking goatif there's a goat, you know,
I don't believe in all of thatthat that goat shit. I mean
every day people, he doesn't evencall himself to go Yeah you don't say
that, that's part, but that'sbut that's your game speaks for you know
(50:21):
how it is hard You ain't saynobody gotta ever say y'all. You don't
ever to tell nobody about your gameright right when you don't know your games
shit, Man, Michael Jordan wouldwould pull your heart out of your chest,
you understand, And just the wayhe went about his business man,
(50:43):
Michael is second to none. Heis not second when it comes to being
the goat. Man. I'm notgonna keep you any more longer. You'll
never know. You'll never about thisall day, all day long. We'll
do it again. Sometimes we'll geton. Hopefully bring your guys, man,
if you can get Jalen and Chrisand all those guys to join the
(51:07):
hardcore weeks ago when yeah they comedown, Yeah sure, yeah, catch
you out for sure. I haveJalen and I can share a few laughs.
When he first got in the league, I had to put him in
check. A little bit as aplayer, but much loved man. Continued
success to you and thank you forthe memories. Man, I greatly appreciate
you' I'll be in touch very soonanytime. Appreciate harp scored y'all check it out.
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