Unfaithful

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Welcome to Healing Begins.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
My name is Pastor Gail Krock, and I'm so glad
you've chose to join me. I don't know what you're
doing this morning, whether you're driving your car down the road,
listening in your house, or maybe you're at work, or
maybe you're working out, or maybe you're catching this later
by podcast. But man, do I have something exciting for
you this morning? I got a special guest. Her name
is Ellie Mariah. She is a finalist in the Kingdom

(00:43):
Family Impact Award with her book called On Faithful and
by the way, on this crossed out.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
So say hi, Ellie, Hi, thank you so much for
having me.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Are you excited?

Speaker 3 (00:54):
Yes, I'm so glad to be here today.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
You're going down to a conference.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
Yeah, what an incredible opportunity. This conference just kind of
showed up out of the blue. And now, yeah, these
connections already like this are amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
It is amazing. So Ali, you wrote an exciting book.
I've read it.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
You have walked through some things that a lot of
wives are going to say, or even girlfriends are going
to say.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Man, I'm dealing with that.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
So why don't you share with my audience what I'm
faithful all about and know a little bit about who
you are.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah. So I currently am living in Texas. I work
for a nonprofit that fights human trafficking. And I got
into that space because roughly ten years ago, when I
was a senior in college, I met a man who
I decided to start dating, and he struggled with a
pornography addiction. And I grew up in a very healthy,

(01:50):
sheltered home. I knew nothing about porn or addiction in
any aspect, and so I began researching and just trying
to figure out, like, you know, I like this guy,
he likes me, but he struggles with this thing, and
I don't know what to do. I don't know if
that means that I did something wrong or you know,
I think a lot of us as women, we take

(02:12):
that on personally, like maybe I'm not good enough. And
so I started researching, and I learned that pornography has
so much to do with the brain and dopamine and
the different systems in the brain. And I later learned
that he had first discovered porn when he was a kid.
He went through some really hard, kind of traumatic things,

(02:33):
and the pornography for him was a coping mechanism, which
often is the case, and it's just something that was hidden,
and so he struggled his whole life, and so we
ended up getting married because again I didn't understand the
depth of his addiction or his situation, and I really
loved him. He was my best friend. And then over
the next few years we walked through this process of

(02:56):
him unfortunately deciding to stick with that addiction, you know,
And I realized over that time that I was fighting
harder for him than he was fighting for himself, and
so eventually we got into counseling, we got into I think,
healthy resources that we really should have had from the beginning.
And by then, again, unfortunately, he had kind of made

(03:19):
up his mind that he wanted both pornography and our marriage,
and his addictive behaviors had begun to get worse, and
so I really sought the Lord. I wanted to make
sure that I made the right decision. And I eventually
felt the Lord release me from that marriage, from his
infidelity and the trauma that it was causing me, and

(03:40):
so again seeking the Lord very much for that decision,
because divorce was not even an option for me at
the beginning. I decided to walk away, and I continued
to get healing, and then I felt the Lord asked
me to write this book for other women who are
going through the same thing, because unfortunately it's a very
very common occurrence now and reallyationships and in marriages. So

(04:01):
that's kind of the summary.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
That must have been very painful for you, Alie.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, it's definitely one of the worst things that I
have ever been through in my life.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yes, now, I imagine there's a lot of ladies listening
out there right now who can really.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Relate to you.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
And I imagine even there's some men listening right now
and saying they're probably saying, well, that's me.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
I'm stuck in this addiction.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
You know, I noticed when I read your book, one
of the things you talked about the pain of betrayal.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Can you talk about that a little bit?

Speaker 3 (04:34):
Yeah, So, as women, we are wired for safety, right,
So the primary need of a woman is typically safety,
and when we're in relationship, in a you know, dating
relationship or a marriage with a man, his role, his
God given role, is protection and care and provision. And
I believe that these are beautiful things. The Lord has

(04:56):
designed us this way right where men protect and provide
and and they do that for women. And so, as
a woman, because we're wired for safety, when we discover
there's often that moment of discovery, that betrayal of our
intimacy in that space of trust, it causes something called
betrayal trauma. And unfortunately, a close friend of mine actually

(05:18):
as of a few days ago, is going through this
exact thing. She's been married for years. He felt very
convicted by the Lord to finally admit what he was
struggling with. And so in that initial moment, yeah, you
have that moment of betrayal trauma. And so doctor Kevin
Skinner runs a group called Bloom for Women and it's

(05:38):
a phenomenal betrayal trauma recovery group, and he has a
video series in there and he talks about how that
moment of betrayal is kind of like a car crash.
It's your disoriented, you know, upside down. Everything just feels
out of whack. And as a woman, you often will
experience this rage or this anger and it doesn't seemed

(06:00):
to make sense. And I, you know, when you're going
through that moment, it's like, why am I so angry
with my husband? And I just I want to kill him,
you know, I want to hurt him for what he
did to me. And it's actually because that's a very
normal way that our brains are wired, that that raging
response is a normal physiological response to the fact that
my entire world, my idea of safety and security, was

(06:23):
just ripped from me. And it is such a big
deal because we're wired for that intimacy right where we
build trust in relationship, and now that trust is taken away.
And so yeah, that's the initial moment, and then there's
a lot that comes after that as far as next
steps and moving forward.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
One of the things they noticed as I read your book,
you talk about two things. You talked about the moment
you heard God's voice. Talk about that and how that
helped you.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, Oh, I love this topic. Learning how to hear
God's voice I think changed my entire life. So I
grew up up knowing the Lord and loving the Lord.
But I can be very left brained, and so the
idea that I could hear quote unquote God's voice was
very confusing to me because I thought it had to
be audible. And so over time I've learned there are

(07:13):
so many different ways that we hear him, and I'm
a big feeler, and so I hear God's voice through
feeling quite a bit. But there was a moment with
the Lord where I heard him audibly the first time
in my entire life. And it's happened once or twice
since then. But it was at the end of my
marriage and we were trying to figure out what to do.

(07:35):
We had just gone through a whole year of counseling,
and he just was not changing, unfortunately, and his behaviors
were actually getting worse, and I was distropped. And so
I was driving my car away from that coffee shop
meeting with him, and I pulled into a parking lot.
It was raining, there was no one else around, and
I was like, God, I need your help. I have
to have clarity because I do not want to leave

(07:57):
this marriage if it's not what you want me to do.
You know, there was no physical abuse, but it was
emotional abuse. It was infidelity. There were unhealthy things happening,
and so yeah, as I'm sitting there asking the Lord,
I heard what felt like an audible voice in my
ear say, Ellie, you can stay or you can go.
I'm proud of you either way. And that was such

(08:18):
a life changing moment for me. And I do want
to clarify that I know this can be a difficult topic,
and so I firmly believe biblically that God does not
condone divorce. Divorce breaks his heart. It's completely against the
design that He has for us, and he knows the
trauma that divorce can cause. That being said, he does

(08:41):
allow biblically divorce. When it comes to infidelity and abandonment.
There are, you know, some caveats to that. And if
you're in a situation where you're being physically abused, I
would highly recommend separation, get away, get to a safe place,
and then take the next steps from there. But in
that instance, the allowing me to make that decision and

(09:02):
allowing me to leave is really what I needed to
get that space and heel So.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Why don't you tell everybody how they can get your book?
We have at least ten more minutes or more left.
Why do you tell people how they can get your book?

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Well, yeah, I find it if you go to Elliemariah
dot com. You can get it there or on Amazon
if you search Unfaithful about Ellie Mariah. And I also
wanted to comment on the title, I have crossed out
or put in parentheses the un part of unfaithful because
when I wrote the book, you know, it was about
my ex husband being unfaithful, but the Lord said I

(09:35):
am faithful, you know, and it was such a redemptive moment.
So yeah, you can find that on Amazon or Elliemariah
dot com.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, I noticed that very thing when I looked at
your title. Your title just really jumped out of me
and really liked it. And then you.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Talked about aulso his presence healing, you remember that. Yeah,
talk about that a little bit.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
Yeah, that's a great question. So so I think when
we go through painful things in life, there's a lot
of questioning that happens a lot of the time. You know,
if God is good, why is this bad thing happening?
And there's a lot of directions we can go with that.
But I remember having a moment with the Lord where

(10:18):
I felt like he said, you can be angry. You
can you know, dive into all of these reasons why
your life is not going the way that you want
it to go. Or you can ask me the hard
questions and you can discover my character and who I
am as a good father, and so that's what I did.
I leaned in and I asked the really hard questions

(10:38):
to the Lord. He can handle it. And I'm so
grateful that I did that, because in that place is
where I encountered a different side of who God is.
I encountered a different facet of his personality, of his character.
And I have never felt such intimacy or closeness with
God like I did when I was going through that

(10:58):
painful season, painful season. Since again, I've met the Lord
in a way that I don't think I've ever encountered
him in the good times. And I don't remember who
said this, but there's a quote from maybe CS Lewis,
some theologian who said, you know, there's when we go
through pain on earth that is actually such a unique

(11:19):
and beautiful opportunity to encounter God in a way that
we never will in heaven when everything is good and
you know, and we're in his presence. And so I've
actually considered I would never choose to have gone through that,
but I consider it such a gift to connect with
God in a unique way.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
And that's what we do as spiritual care here.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
We do the healing of trauma by learning how to
forgive them that call the pain and understanding what that's about,
dealing with identity, and then inviting Jesus into that space,
because you know, spiritual trauma or a wound in the
soul is just as bad as breaking your arm. It

(11:58):
needs to be healed. So that's great. You know, I
noticed a lot when I read your book. You really
referred to identity a lot. You know your valuable, you
know your God's daughter. And I've always said, at the
very basic level, if you have bad behavior, you have
a bad identity, you have a false identity. You're living

(12:19):
out of them. Did you feel that way too, that
identity had a lot to do with it.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
Yeah, And in the context of the book, I really
talk about identity a lot with my ex husband because
I think when we don't know who we are, we
don't know how to make decisions in a healthy way.

Speaker 4 (12:36):
Right.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
And so the fact that I grew up with an
amazing father who always I think was a good picture
to me of who God is as a father, and
having that understanding that I am loved by God, that's
who I am. I think that in part is what
carried me through the pain, you know, and in that
space of those raw questions. But also with my ex husband,

(12:59):
it really came down to he couldn't love me because
he didn't love himself and he didn't know who he was.
And so I think the people that I've encountered in
life who have the most confidence and the most love
and the deepest relationship with God have a really solid
understanding of who they are as a person, but also

(13:20):
as a son or daughter of God.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, that's really critical if you're going to really become
all that God is dying you, all that God has
designed you to be. You know, we say here at
Spiritual Care, I see you in the future, and you
look much better than you do right now. So we
may be one way when they come into Spiritual Care
for healing, but when they realize who they are and

(13:44):
who they are when they leave, they're a different person
because they've encountered the presence of the Lord and they
begin to understand. And that's what I got when I
read your book was the impact of the presence of
the Lord, hearing God's voice and understanding you're identity. He
kind of like the trifecta they're going on in your
book as I began to read it, right, would you

(14:05):
say that's correct?

Speaker 3 (14:07):
Absolutely?

Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
You talk a lot.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
About hope, right, Can you speak to the ladies that
are listening or whoever listening about hope.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
Yeah. So, when you're in the middle of a situation
like this, especially the initial betrayal trauma, it feels like
the world is ending. And I walked, I mean probably
for a couple of years through that situation. I did
not know what the other side would look like. I
felt like it was a long, dark tunnel with no
light at the end. And so something the Lord really

(14:40):
spoke to me in that season when I asked him
those hard questions, He really showed me that there was
hope on the other side and that I needed to
have inasmuch as you can when you're going through a
traumatic experience, that I needed to have long term vision
with the Lord. And so that looks like meditating in scripture,
reminding myself of the truth of who God is and

(15:01):
who I am, and reminding myself that this is just
the season, this is one small part of my life,
and again recognizing there's a spiritual aspect to all of this. Right,
the enemy wants to take out believers right, He wants
to take out the children of God. And so if
I can recognize this is an attack from the enemy,
this is a spiritual season. But knowing that God is

(15:24):
good and there's so much hope on the other side,
I think that's what grounded me and that's what brought
me through. And I mean, I don't know how I
would get through something like this without hope, you know,
from the Lord, or hope that there's something better.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
When you talked about another thing, you talked about forgiveness,
about being able to forgive him and let go of that.
Can you talk a little bit about how you accomplished that,
How how did that happen for you? Because I think
that's very key.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
Absolutely, that has been one of the biggest elements of this.
I think I address in my book some lies that
we believe about forgiveness, and I think I think one
is that just that we're supposed to forgive and forget
and it doesn't work that way. And so over the
past few years I've really learned a lot about forgiveness
and what that looks like is really forgiveness is for me,

(16:12):
It is to protect my heart, and it does not
mean that the other person didn't do anything wrong, or
that they didn't hurt me. But again, when I believe
in the Lord, right, God talks a lot in his
word about how he's a God of justice. And so
I really studied stories like Joseph and the Bible, who
was dealt injustice after injustice, and yet because he leaned

(16:34):
on the Lord and trusted that God would bring justice,
he was able to forgive and then, you know, provide
for that entire nation. And so forgiveness to me does
not look like forgetting, but it does look like saying, hey,
you did something wrong, but I'm going to give that
to the Lord and trust that the Lord is taking
care of me so that I can heal my heart
and I can move forward in wholeness regardless of what

(16:57):
happens to the other person, knowing that God is is
going to take care of it. And so because of that, again,
with other painful things I've walked through, I've really been
able to walk in a lot of freedom and wholeness.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
We always say we have two hooks.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Forgiveness is taking them off my hook and putting them
on God's hook. Forgiveness is more about me than it
is the other person, And it's actually a gift I
give myself because when I forgive, like Jesus tells me to,
then that initiates God's mercy back to me.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
But it also allows God to work on that other person. Definitely,
I quit hanging on to them. It's easy to hang
on to somebody and you might have to put them on.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
God took more than once, because I bet you could
tell how several times you had his face come before
you and right away you had to deal with it.
And also I liked I talked about neural plasticity. We
talk about that changing your neural patholic. Can you like
talk about that a little bit? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (17:56):
I love Oh, I love the brain science part. And
I the way that I think about this is we
form habits through neuroplasticity and brain pathways. So it used
to be that scientists thought that our brains were fixed.
Now they realize they can change. And so when someone
is watching pornography, for instance, they're forming habits and it's

(18:17):
creating like a divot or a pathway in the brain.
But we can form new pathways, and so there is
so much hope to overcome pornography addiction because just in
the same way that we formed the pathway to begin with,
we can form new ones. And so I like to
think about it like walking through a path in the woods,
and you know, you trample down the foliage every day

(18:37):
you create the pathway. And then if you want to
create a new pathway, it takes some work. Initially you
have to cut down the trees and pull out the
roots and all those things. But eventually you're going to
create a new pathway, and then the old one things
will grow up, and eventually that pathway will disappear. And
so again, when it comes back to that hope question,
there's so much hope for recovery on both sides because

(18:59):
of those pathways.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Romans twelve tells us not to be conformed to the
pattern of this world any longer, but be transformed by
the renewing of your mind, so you can test and
prove what God's will is is good, pleasing and perfect will.
Romans Chapter twelve verse too, So that really talks about
the renewal of the mind. So we have about we
have about four minutes left as we wind towards the end.

(19:24):
Do you want to tell them again how they can
find your book?

Speaker 3 (19:27):
Yeah, absolutely. You can find Unfaithful on Amazon by searching
Unfaithful by Elie Mariah or go to Elliemuriah dot com.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
Perfect. That's great.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yes, I would encourage all my listeners well, grab a
copy of her book.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
I loved it. I know that you'll be really glad
that you did.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
It'll be a really good resource for a lot of
people that are struggling in this area. Ellie, would you
like to pray for those that are struggling from dealing
with pornography right now?

Speaker 3 (19:55):
Absolutely? Yeah? All right, Well, Lord, we love you. God,
You're welcome here. And I just Lord, I thank you
right now for every woman who is struggling with betrayal trauma. Lord,
every yeah, spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend who's discovered that. Lord, I
thank you that you meet them there, Father, that you
are their peace, you are their wholeness. I thank you

(20:16):
that you meet them in the pain. God, that you
can handle the hard questions and so Lord, I just
thank you for the freedom and the hope that can
come on the other side of that. In Jesus' name,
and Lord, I thank you for every person right now
who's addicted to pornography, who has been struggling in shame
and isolation and fear, and Father, I just thank you
for freedom.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
Lord.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
We just declare freedom over their lives. In Jesus' name.
We say shame go in Jesus' name, Holy Spirit. Come, Lord,
You're welcome here. God, we love you, and I just
thank you that you have so much freedom in mind. Lord,
you have so much freedom that you want to give
to your children. And Lord, we love you and we
thank you for that and Jesus.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Name, and Lord, I just pray for those that are
listening that are struggling here, that they would know they
are not alone. Father Elie talks a lot about that
in her book, Not Alone. You need to know that
there's been others that have been through this battle and
made it out the other side.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
It's the Lord.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Thank you that you're with us and that y're to
help us, and that you said you would never leave
us and forsake.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Us and Jesus' name, am Man, we got about two
minutes left. You talk about setting healthy boundaries.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
Ah, Can you say a little bit about boundaries because
I think that's really important.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yes. So, I think sometimes especially as a wife or
you know, someone in that type of relationship, when I
discovered that my ex husband was struggling with an addiction.
I really wanted to take care of him and I
wanted to help him, and so I learned over time
the importance of recognizing that I am his wife, which
means I'm the person he's supposed to take care of.

(21:54):
And by trying to take care of him in a
space where he's hurting me, it was really detrimental to me.
And so setting healthy boundaries looks like getting into really
good counseling. I would recommend Christian counseling where they're going
to invite Jesus into that, but getting into counseling and
getting him into a space with other healthy men who
he can talk to about those issues and the details

(22:17):
of things that I think sometimes are not healthy for
us as wives to hear. And then that can also
look like setting healthy boundaries with family members or other
people in that situation as you try to navigate what
that looks like for healing.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, and Henry Cloud's got a good book out on
boundaries too, if you've ever read that, I mean, it's
a really good resource. So well, Mariah, I want to
call you Mariah, but I know it's Ellie I'm so excited.
I'm excited to join you at the Book Awards. It'll
be great to be there. Thank you for taking the

(22:51):
time to go on the program to share your story.
I think it's so important that your story gets out there.
And for my listeners that are are listening right now.
We have a few more seconds left, but my email
is share at Healing Begins Radio dot com. Share at
Healing Begins Radio dot com. And I always like to

(23:13):
go off with a blessing is what I like to
end with. May the Lord bless you, made the Lord,
keep you made the Lord, cause his face to shine
upon you. May he be gracious to you, give you
a piece, and may his presence always surround you.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
And if you are dealing with pornography, may you.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Know you are the victor and not the victim.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
From Gail Aale, you have a good morning.

Speaker 3 (23:42):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
Are you struggling with emotional pain, anxiety, trauma, or feeling
stuck in life? At Spiritual Care Consultants, we believe that
healing is possible because we've seen it happen every day.
We offer one on one spiritual care for both adults
and children at no cost, right in our office or
through secure zoom sessions. Whether you're facing grief, stress, depression,

(24:24):
or simply need someone to talk to, our trained consultants
are here to walk with you toward healing and hope.
We combine biblical wisdom, compassionate listening, and proven spiritual care
tools that will help bring clarity, peace and restoration. To
learn more, visit.

Speaker 5 (24:42):
Www dot SCC healingbegins dot com and if you have
any questions orud like to reach out to us, email
us any time at share at Healingbegins Radio dot com.

Speaker 4 (24:56):
You're not alone. Healing Begins here