October 10, 2024 • 30 mins
PART 3 - Welcome to Carly Zucker’s Podcast, where we dive into the deep, real, and raw conversations of life—relationships, mental health, trauma, and recovery—along with everything in between.
Each week, Carly explores these difficult topics, embracing vulnerability and the beauty in brokenness. Through candid conversations, she shares her own journey and provides resources to offer hope and raise awareness.
Each week, Carly explores these difficult topics, embracing vulnerability and the beauty in brokenness. Through candid conversations, she shares her own journey and provides resources to offer hope and raise awareness.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wama, Wama, down, Wama.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to part three of the conversation I'm having with
Chris Hockey. You make sure to check out part one
and two and then swing back for the final chapter,
number four. Here we go, So we're going to continue
the conversation deep conversation. As we said before, I'm Carlie Zucker,
(00:28):
joined by Chris Hockey, one of my greatest friends and
someone I.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Deeply connect to on these topics, and so.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
When I wanted to do this, there was nobody else
in the world I'd rather do this with. So I
want to continue the conversation. Where we left off was
me at the trauma.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Center in Colorado at All Points North.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And again, I think the education I learned there lacked
so much education of again coping skills and truly understanding
why I maybe behaved the way that I did, why
the addiction was there and All Points North gave me
(01:14):
that education. And so the forty six days that I
spent there, I learned and absorbed absolutely everything that I.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Could at what point and maybe it happened before you
got there, And I think there are people out there
who are listening to this who will understand exactly what
I'm saying because even going to Hoffman, for me, it
was sizeable amount of money, sizeable amount of time.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
It was going away completely.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
The entire time on the plane, on the way there,
on the bus to Calgary, I kept thinking, I'm not
worth all this. Why am I taking all this time?
And so you take that my ten days and you
magnify that by a factor of eight. At what point
(02:13):
did you release yourself from that and say I'm worth this.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I think there's almost two parts for that. I was
able to release that probably going to All Points North.
I felt I had done this work at Bautaire. It
was worth it, you know, I had seen how much
it was worth it right and the changes I was experiencing.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
So I was able to say this is worth it
for me.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I think the other piece of this is what a
privilege it is to be able to go to these
treatment centers, to these places, to the Hoffman process. Yeah,
it was an absolute privilege to be able to go.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
How many people can walk away.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
From their lives for chunks of time, and so I
want to really acknowledge that that. Yeah, I don't want
to make it seem easy that you can just walk
into treatment. I do believe that there comes a point
where it's either life or death, or it's you're you know,
(03:25):
it's losing so much of your life, Like do you
even have a job if you don't go? Do you
even because it's that serious? Do you even have a
family if you don't go. So I think the expense
of what you could lose of your life is worth it.
But it is a massive privilege to be able to
(03:47):
go to a treatment center, and I wish it was
all free for people, Like I think one of the
things that I would love to do with my future
is to be an advocate for people getting resourced because
it is at right now, it's a privilege.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It's not just accessible for everybody.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
And I had that massive privilege and ability to go
experience these eighty days, and not everybody does.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
And so I think that.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
That is a big piece of this too, that it
is not very accessible to people.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
There are places that you.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Know what, insurance, there's insurance, there's things like that, but
it just it's a resource that is available, but not
necessarily easily available for all people.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
That is such an absolutely fantastic point and I'm glad
you said it, and I would like to. I would
like to communicate to everybody out there, if you're looking
at it and saying that is insurmountable financially, time wise,
that is insurmountable. I completely get it. I do, and
(05:03):
I would encourage you to also look at the mountain
you're facing every morning when you wake up and ask
yourself if that's surmountable without it, because the expense to
go to Hoffman, I live a blessed life and I've
worked my ass off, you know, to have some money
in the banks that I could afford to spend what
(05:23):
I needed to spend to go do that. But I
would have blown that money on something stupid, and I
would have still been empty, and I still would have
felt worthless. I know, as you said, it's not accessible
to everybody. If you can find a way and you
need it, please find a way.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Please find a way.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You know, and there are people that want to help you.
You know, there's a support system around you that may
you may not even see or know. So don't be
afraid to at least ask for the help, ask for
people to help you make it work or.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
To navigate it.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Because again, I was lucky that Jeremy and Jason both
stepped in and stepped up the.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Way they did.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
But it was a village that made that work. My parents,
my sister, my brother, everybody stepped in. Jason's family was
so available for him to make it work. So I
think there you might be surprised by the village around
you that wants you to go get the help and
would help you make it work.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
And think of what the alternative is, right, think of
what the alternative is. You get one little life. You
get one little life.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Let's go back to the treatment center because something you
said really stuck with me. And again from my small
experience at Hoffmann, I had such a similar experience where
the things that we did outside of the room where
the hard things were going on seemed superfluous until I
left and realized how important they were. Tell me about
(06:54):
the process of dealing with your trauma inside that center.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, again, I think there's that sense of belonging within
those walls and understanding and compassion and no judgment.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
You're all there.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
You know, you've all made the decision to leave your lives,
so there's no judgment on you know, people that have
left behind kids, because that's a scary thing, you know,
that people have the judgment of you leaving your children,
you doing this stuff. It can look self whatever it
(07:31):
looks like to somebody, but it was it was the
conversations over cards at night where you connect with people
and you build these lifelong friendships and connections of people
who just deeply understand what it means when you talk
(07:53):
about suicidal ideation or when you talk about addiction, and
it's not as scary to you because they're difficult topics.
They're scary topics, and so not that it was talking
about in a flippant way, but it was it was
talked about in an understood you know, you could understand
(08:13):
each other. And so those moments were extremely important to
the work that we did in there, and I still
am connected to so many people from both facilities. It's
a scary number of success that comes out of those
of treatment centers and addictions. The numbers are between one
(08:38):
and three percent of success.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
That people stay sober?
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Really?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, so they're extremely low stay sober, I want to say,
for I believe it was a.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Year or more.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
And that is a terrifying number. You know, you see
people that you are close to in there come out
of there and begin to use again, lose things pass away.
And that's really and that's a terrifying thing. And so
(09:14):
again one of the things that I would love to
do in a dream world is to help improve those
numbers in some way, because that is a low number
of success.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Because and we'll get to this momentarily. When you walk
out of that door, you're.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
On your own, yeah life.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, I want to before we do that. Though it's
the second time you've mentioned it. I think it's an
important thing to acknowledge. And I know that you're not
necessarily an expert on this, but I think it's such
a problem with our youth right now. Suicide ideal ideation,
a suicidal ideation, the idea.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
That it's a possibility.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Yeah, some people I'm very very close with deal with that,
and it's it's such a strange thing for somebody who's
not afflicted. But the idea that you're worried that you
might decide to do it. How did how did how
did they help you with that? If you don't mind
(10:14):
me asking, I'm not trying to put you in the
position of an expert.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
I just want to know how they helped you, particularly.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
You know it's a very permanent solution to a very
temporary problem, right, And it's not a solution, it's a
it's just a temporary it feels like the temporary solution
or the permanent solution, sorry to a very temporary feeling.
And you want you feel in those moments that those
(10:40):
feelings will never leave you, that they're there forever, that
I will have to go through this forever, I'm going
to always feel this way, nothing will change, and believing
that you want to escape it, So how do I
escape it? And that that's a conversation I had a
(11:02):
lot of in there, and that's what they did was
I mean, it's coping skills, right. It sounds so simple,
toe it can seem so simple, and at.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
The core of it it is, but to actively use.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Them and to make them a part of your life
because you spend I spent thirty eight years developing negative
coping skills and negative patterns, and so.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
It takes time to then change.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
What your behaviors are, your reactions, your coping skills, your patterns,
and so they give you the knowledge of that that
it takes time and practice and that you really have
to do that. And I keep saying do the work.
And for me, that looks like it could be journaling,
it could be going outside on walks, being very connected
(12:00):
to nature, and again varies what seems like simple stuff,
but to be purposeful and mindful in what you're doing,
to have conversations with other people, because again I've isolate,
you know, so to get yourself out there, to find
something you enjoy, to have gratitude in the little things.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
If you like cookie, I.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Mean, it's it's all those That's what I mean by
doing the work. It's really seems so simple. But when
you're in states of depression, anxiety, or you know, the
deep darkness addiction, you're not doing any of that anymore,
at least not to the level of which you should be.
And then also for me, I do go to meetings
(12:44):
because I find AA meetings very helpful.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
People can find sponsors.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I mean, there's so much that could be listed under
this idea of work, and they help you create one.
At the treatment center, they help you create this list
of what will.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Work for you.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
What does work for you? Is it music, is it
playing piano? I mean, it can be anything that really
feeds into taking care of yourself. Right, But doing it consistently,
because like a spot a every month isn't what I'm
talking about.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
That's not gonna work.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
It is what do you do daily to make yourself
feel worthwhile of life?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
What a change it is to take off the comforting
blanket of pain.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Oh, how familiar, and it is so easy to stay
in the familiar and to go back to the familiar
of I'll be very honest, I was very good at
being a victim. I was very good at blaming, and
(13:48):
I knew inside how much I contributed, but I was
very good at being a victim and blaming. And when
you take that away, so that was familiar to me.
So I'll just fall back into that because that's familiar.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
It's completely alien to somebody, and thank god it is.
It's completely alien to a lot of people. But if
you've only known suffering, that becomes your blanket, and it's
hard to take that blanket off.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, it's easy to put back on. Yeah, and it
feels very cozy and comfortable. Wah.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And so.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
That's why I says it's work, because you have to
continue to do it to give yourself the years, the days,
the time. And I hate that. I hate I'm so
impatient that it's time. But when you do start these
processes to learn, grow and change, it just is a
(14:47):
lot of time.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
And a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
So the number you threw out of days that you
were in color, it's kind of arbitrary, at least it
seems like it was.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Yeah, I'm not sure. Doesn't seem like a number you
put on a calendars? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yeah, I wasn't a specific on forty six yea.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
So what leads to you saying I'm ready to go
home now?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So I A lot of it is, I mean discussions
with your therapists and counselors there, and have you felt
like you've worked through enough of what you have worked
through to go home.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I was.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I did outpatient for several weeks towards the end, so
I would go home on weekends, which was a great opportunity.
They love that because you integrate a little bit back
into your life, because if you just step right back out,
there's alcohol, there's drugs, there's stress, there's like what what.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Does that look like there to become with?
Speaker 1 (15:45):
And so it was a great way. So I would
go home on weekends.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
I would go back to Pittsburgh and spend the weekends
with Jason and the kids and I would, and then
you come back and you can process that. So it
gives you an opportunity to go through some things over
the weekend, then come back and process all of that
with your therapists and your counselors and your groups. And again,
it's just builds the coping, it builds the education. And
(16:11):
so I did that for a couple of weeks towards
the end and yeah, ed, you know, it was just
conversations with everybody that was helping lead my therapy and
my treatment there, and we decided, you know, I'm ready
to take this and build on it outside of here,
(16:33):
and there's an opportunity, and I took it to do outpatient,
and so we were doing. I did Zoom Education three
days a week for four hours a day, and that
was just continued classes with people from the all points North.
So it was something that kind of keeps you invested
(16:55):
and keeps you practicing everything that you had done.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And I did that for twelve weeks after I left.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
You put the work in. Yeah, you really did.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
How terrifying was it to walk up to your kids
and your family again for the first time.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Terrifying.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I mean, I had I still had so much guilt.
So seeing the kids was almost like felt a little
scary for the first time, because I felt like, are
they going to be upset in somewhere?
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Are they going to be what had I done to them?
You know, what had I done to them in this
time that I was away? And so I was.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I was very fortunate to do some therapy sessions with
Sophia during that time, and so I would if anybody
ever needs you know that that was hugely helpful for
us because she could understand a little bit more of
what was going on, and kids need information. I think
that that was something that I didn't understand till I
(18:06):
went through this too. I wanted to protect them completely,
like the little like the less they know.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
The better.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I don't want them to know a thing. But then
kids will adopt their own narrative and they will make up.
They could blame themselves, they could.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
So to actually give.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Your kids information, for me, I believe is one of
the best things you can do. Appropriate information, of course,
but I had a therapist to guide me through what
that looks like. And there's so many books I've read,
so many articles on how to talk to your kids
about these things. And I think that giving your kids
information is a beautiful and really helpful thing, because again,
(18:48):
if you don't, they will make their own assumptions, narrative
story around it, and they'll build their own army, and it.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Might not be very healthy for them.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
So but seeing them, I mean, but also it was
the most beautiful thing because I felt very different, you know,
I felt like the same person, but such a healthier
version of me that when I got to see them
(19:22):
again and embrace them, I was like, we have a
fresh you know, we have a fresh start and I
and you know, and and things have been different, and
I felt like genuinelyy would genuinely would.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Be different for the kids.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
And so when I got to see them again, it
was also really incredible because I felt like they're getting
this new mom that's the healthier version and the mom
they deserve, and somebody who can help guide them and
has now education, and so that was.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
It was a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
But also, yeah, there was a lot of guilt just
being gone and what had I done to them. I
will say our relationships are stronger than ever, and I
don't you know, They'll always have that in their mind.
You know, that will always have affected them that I
was gone. But I will say that our relationships are
(20:30):
stronger than ever and that I am a much healthier
mom than an emotionally stable mom, and that's what I
want for them.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yeah, what about your relationship with Jason?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
You know, when I decided to do this, I truly
believe Jason's story is his to tell. You know, I
don't think it's fair for me to come on here
and talk to me much about our relationship.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
I will say none of what you saw was fake.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
We loved each other dearly and we're so happy for
such a long time. Nobody deserves to be on the
receiving end of your unhealed trauma, and that's what he was.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
That's really hard to admit and say, but he was
on the receiving end of my unhealed trauma for a
long time and that's very exhausting, and he tried really hard,
and so I will say what you saw was not fake.
(21:51):
You know, we built a lot together in a very
loving way, and we're very happy. It had so much fun.
But there is a point where.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
You know, there's there can be a breaking point for
people there can be a point where you just can't
come back for that person, and that's okay. You have
to be okay that not everybody's going to be able
to go on the journey with you, and that not
everybody is going to forgive you or stay in your life.
(22:28):
And that was a really difficult thing I learned in
treatment because I'm thinking I'm going to get better and
everything's going to be fine, right, Yeah, And there are
people who will not be in your life anymore, and
there are people that can't go on.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
That journey with you, and that is so hard. But
you have to accept that and respect it.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And again, he unfortunately was on the receiving end of
a lot of my unhealed trauma and he did not
deserve that, and I take accountability for that, and I
think that that is something important to recognize.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Listen, I'm hoping he hears this, because you just gave
him the biggest gift.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
That's a big gift, and I genuinely love him.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
He is such a good father and a good person
and he needs to be happy. He deserves to be happy.
He also gets one life and so he deserves all
of that too. And I hope our co parenting relationship
is a very beautiful thing for those kids, and a
(23:51):
lot of time.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
It takes time, you know, to get to those places.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
But one thing I did want to address, because it's
something I've been asked a lot and I've seen a lot.
I can say without a doubt that we were faithful
to each other. I know in my heart in everything
that he was faithful to me and I was loyal
(24:17):
to him.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
We were loyal to each other and.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Our marriage, and so I don't want there to be
anything out there with a question mark of whether or
not he was faithful to me or I was.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
To him, because that's important to me.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And we remained loyal to each other even through the
really difficult stuff. But and you know, he supported when
I came back from treatment. We had these events ones
called Winefest for goodness sakes, and I hosted it, which
was great because I was distracted.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
But.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
It was for Masnic Children's Hospital, where you know, give
sixteen supports. So we went.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
There and without even saying anything to me, he stayed
sober the entire time we were already in the divorce.
There was nothing he owed me, and I think that
that speaks to who he is, and I think that's
a nice thing to share because it just is an
example of a way he supported through this. But he
(25:21):
just he didn't drink at any of the events in
front of me, or even didn't drink at all at
the events to show support for me.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
We've we've inflicted ourselves on people.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
You know you do.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yeah, but now here we are so aside from the
family stuff, which is enormous, you're back in the world again. Yeah,
and you're living this day to day and there's not
a there's not a switch that can be flipped to saying,
oh I'm better now.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
What is a How much of a battle is day
to day for you?
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I you know, when you come out of treatment, I
was on kind of that high of what I learned
in treatment and this exciting new life and all of that.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So almost right away it felt.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I don't want to say easy, but like easier because
I was really into, you know, like everything. But then
things kind of level off. And a person like me
who was living the way I was living in fight
or flight.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Is used to chaos. So I live better in chaos.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
If something, if just a normal day happens, What can
I do to create something because I need I need actually,
you know, like I need the drama and so I
but a normal day was difficult for me, and so
as things got more normal, and to be honest, like,
(27:00):
we don't need to get too much into this, but
I you know, we moved down to Scottsdale for because
Jason was playing the Coyotes, So me and the kids
moved on to Scottsdale, and I didn't have the same
support that I had back here. So that was a
difficult time for me, and I didn't realize how much
(27:20):
work I was still doing. You know, I was really
trying to med it was. I was doing all the
things that I had wanted to do, but I was
still feeling pretty terrible at that point, and I did
have what I call a mental relapse. Luckily I haven't
had any problems with alcohol again, but I had what
I consider a mental relapse where my anxiety and depression
(27:44):
got pretty crippling for me for a while. And I
was surrounded by family who helped me get through it.
So that's another thing, and such a great question. Such
an important thing to note is that you don't come
out of treatment fixed. You don't come there's not a
day that you wake up and you're like, everything's perfect.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
It's going to.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Ebb and flow probably the rest of my life. But
as long as I will say what's been a beautiful
thing for me? Has, I've not had that same feeling
of suicidal ideation. I continue to value my life. Ye,
I have self worth. I do love myself now. I matter,
(28:26):
and it doesn't It's not because of what I've done.
It's because of just me being a person, like we
all just deserve it as a as a human right.
And so.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
I've been able to maintain that even through the difficult times,
which feels like a win to me. Yeah, it feels
like a win.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
It's the ultimate win.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Long a huge heartfelt thank you for listening. I promise
I'm not going to take this much time. I'm at
the end of every episode, but I did want to
say a special thank you to my family and friends
who have picked me up. They've sat with me, walked
with me, kept me going. I am just forever grateful
(29:12):
for what you have invested in me, So thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It would be too long to name all of you,
but you know who you are.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
A huge thank you to Chris Hockey for being just
an incredible friend and confidante and guiding me through this
interview today. Dave Plente for filming, Zach Halverson and Brett
Blake Moore for producing. Thank you all so much for
putting this together. You know, please look for more information
on the next episodes we'll be releasing every Thursday, and
(29:42):
they'll be on various topics. We're going to talk about
support systems and what it looks like to be on
the other side and have emotional conversations with my sister
and my family about that, and then have professionals talk
about what that looks like. Child psychologists will do an
ask us anything situation, so we are gonna have a
(30:04):
lot to talk about. Please visit my website here wee
Go podcast dot com for more information as we build
this community together, and most importantly, if you are in crisis,
reach out for help at NAMI dot org or call
one eight hundred two seven three eight two five five.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Thanks for listening Here we Go guys.
Wama, Wama, down, Wama.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to part three of the conversation I'm having with
Chris Hockey. You make sure to check out part one
and two and then swing back for the final chapter,
number four. Here we go, So we're going to continue
the conversation deep conversation. As we said before, I'm Carlie Zucker,
(00:28):
joined by Chris Hockey, one of my greatest friends and
someone I.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Deeply connect to on these topics, and so.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
When I wanted to do this, there was nobody else
in the world I'd rather do this with. So I
want to continue the conversation. Where we left off was
me at the trauma.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Center in Colorado at All Points North.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And again, I think the education I learned there lacked
so much education of again coping skills and truly understanding
why I maybe behaved the way that I did, why
the addiction was there and All Points North gave me
(01:14):
that education. And so the forty six days that I
spent there, I learned and absorbed absolutely everything that I.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Could at what point and maybe it happened before you
got there, And I think there are people out there
who are listening to this who will understand exactly what
I'm saying because even going to Hoffman, for me, it
was sizeable amount of money, sizeable amount of time.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
It was going away completely.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
The entire time on the plane, on the way there,
on the bus to Calgary, I kept thinking, I'm not
worth all this. Why am I taking all this time?
And so you take that my ten days and you
magnify that by a factor of eight. At what point
(02:13):
did you release yourself from that and say I'm worth this.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I think there's almost two parts for that. I was
able to release that probably going to All Points North.
I felt I had done this work at Bautaire. It
was worth it, you know, I had seen how much
it was worth it right and the changes I was experiencing.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
So I was able to say this is worth it
for me.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I think the other piece of this is what a
privilege it is to be able to go to these
treatment centers, to these places, to the Hoffman process. Yeah,
it was an absolute privilege to be able to go.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
How many people can walk away.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
From their lives for chunks of time, and so I
want to really acknowledge that that. Yeah, I don't want
to make it seem easy that you can just walk
into treatment. I do believe that there comes a point
where it's either life or death, or it's you're you know,
(03:25):
it's losing so much of your life, Like do you
even have a job if you don't go? Do you
even because it's that serious? Do you even have a
family if you don't go. So I think the expense
of what you could lose of your life is worth it.
But it is a massive privilege to be able to
(03:47):
go to a treatment center, and I wish it was
all free for people, Like I think one of the
things that I would love to do with my future
is to be an advocate for people getting resourced because
it is at right now, it's a privilege.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It's not just accessible for everybody.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
And I had that massive privilege and ability to go
experience these eighty days, and not everybody does.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
And so I think that.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
That is a big piece of this too, that it
is not very accessible to people.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
There are places that you.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Know what, insurance, there's insurance, there's things like that, but
it just it's a resource that is available, but not
necessarily easily available for all people.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
That is such an absolutely fantastic point and I'm glad
you said it, and I would like to. I would
like to communicate to everybody out there, if you're looking
at it and saying that is insurmountable financially, time wise,
that is insurmountable. I completely get it. I do, and
(05:03):
I would encourage you to also look at the mountain
you're facing every morning when you wake up and ask
yourself if that's surmountable without it, because the expense to
go to Hoffman, I live a blessed life and I've
worked my ass off, you know, to have some money
in the banks that I could afford to spend what
(05:23):
I needed to spend to go do that. But I
would have blown that money on something stupid, and I
would have still been empty, and I still would have
felt worthless. I know, as you said, it's not accessible
to everybody. If you can find a way and you
need it, please find a way.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Please find a way.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You know, and there are people that want to help you.
You know, there's a support system around you that may
you may not even see or know. So don't be
afraid to at least ask for the help, ask for
people to help you make it work or.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
To navigate it.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Because again, I was lucky that Jeremy and Jason both
stepped in and stepped up the.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Way they did.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
But it was a village that made that work. My parents,
my sister, my brother, everybody stepped in. Jason's family was
so available for him to make it work. So I
think there you might be surprised by the village around
you that wants you to go get the help and
would help you make it work.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
And think of what the alternative is, right, think of
what the alternative is. You get one little life. You
get one little life.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Let's go back to the treatment center because something you
said really stuck with me. And again from my small
experience at Hoffmann, I had such a similar experience where
the things that we did outside of the room where
the hard things were going on seemed superfluous until I
left and realized how important they were. Tell me about
(06:54):
the process of dealing with your trauma inside that center.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, again, I think there's that sense of belonging within
those walls and understanding and compassion and no judgment.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
You're all there.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
You know, you've all made the decision to leave your lives,
so there's no judgment on you know, people that have
left behind kids, because that's a scary thing, you know,
that people have the judgment of you leaving your children,
you doing this stuff. It can look self whatever it
(07:31):
looks like to somebody, but it was it was the
conversations over cards at night where you connect with people
and you build these lifelong friendships and connections of people
who just deeply understand what it means when you talk
(07:53):
about suicidal ideation or when you talk about addiction, and
it's not as scary to you because they're difficult topics.
They're scary topics, and so not that it was talking
about in a flippant way, but it was it was
talked about in an understood you know, you could understand
(08:13):
each other. And so those moments were extremely important to
the work that we did in there, and I still
am connected to so many people from both facilities. It's
a scary number of success that comes out of those
of treatment centers and addictions. The numbers are between one
(08:38):
and three percent of success.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
That people stay sober?
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Really?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, so they're extremely low stay sober, I want to say,
for I believe it was a.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Year or more.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
And that is a terrifying number. You know, you see
people that you are close to in there come out
of there and begin to use again, lose things pass away.
And that's really and that's a terrifying thing. And so
(09:14):
again one of the things that I would love to
do in a dream world is to help improve those
numbers in some way, because that is a low number
of success.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Because and we'll get to this momentarily. When you walk
out of that door, you're.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
On your own, yeah life.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, I want to before we do that. Though it's
the second time you've mentioned it. I think it's an
important thing to acknowledge. And I know that you're not
necessarily an expert on this, but I think it's such
a problem with our youth right now. Suicide ideal ideation,
a suicidal ideation, the idea.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
That it's a possibility.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Yeah, some people I'm very very close with deal with that,
and it's it's such a strange thing for somebody who's
not afflicted. But the idea that you're worried that you
might decide to do it. How did how did how
did they help you with that? If you don't mind
(10:14):
me asking, I'm not trying to put you in the
position of an expert.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
I just want to know how they helped you, particularly.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
You know it's a very permanent solution to a very
temporary problem, right, And it's not a solution, it's a
it's just a temporary it feels like the temporary solution
or the permanent solution, sorry to a very temporary feeling.
And you want you feel in those moments that those
(10:40):
feelings will never leave you, that they're there forever, that
I will have to go through this forever, I'm going
to always feel this way, nothing will change, and believing
that you want to escape it, So how do I
escape it? And that that's a conversation I had a
(11:02):
lot of in there, and that's what they did was
I mean, it's coping skills, right. It sounds so simple,
toe it can seem so simple, and at.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
The core of it it is, but to actively use.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Them and to make them a part of your life
because you spend I spent thirty eight years developing negative
coping skills and negative patterns, and so.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
It takes time to then change.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
What your behaviors are, your reactions, your coping skills, your patterns,
and so they give you the knowledge of that that
it takes time and practice and that you really have
to do that. And I keep saying do the work.
And for me, that looks like it could be journaling,
it could be going outside on walks, being very connected
(12:00):
to nature, and again varies what seems like simple stuff,
but to be purposeful and mindful in what you're doing,
to have conversations with other people, because again I've isolate,
you know, so to get yourself out there, to find
something you enjoy, to have gratitude in the little things.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
If you like cookie, I.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Mean, it's it's all those That's what I mean by
doing the work. It's really seems so simple. But when
you're in states of depression, anxiety, or you know, the
deep darkness addiction, you're not doing any of that anymore,
at least not to the level of which you should be.
And then also for me, I do go to meetings
(12:44):
because I find AA meetings very helpful.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
People can find sponsors.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I mean, there's so much that could be listed under
this idea of work, and they help you create one.
At the treatment center, they help you create this list
of what will.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Work for you.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
What does work for you? Is it music, is it
playing piano? I mean, it can be anything that really
feeds into taking care of yourself. Right, But doing it consistently,
because like a spot a every month isn't what I'm
talking about.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
That's not gonna work.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
It is what do you do daily to make yourself
feel worthwhile of life?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
What a change it is to take off the comforting
blanket of pain.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Oh, how familiar, and it is so easy to stay
in the familiar and to go back to the familiar
of I'll be very honest, I was very good at
being a victim. I was very good at blaming, and
(13:48):
I knew inside how much I contributed, but I was
very good at being a victim and blaming. And when
you take that away, so that was familiar to me.
So I'll just fall back into that because that's familiar.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
It's completely alien to somebody, and thank god it is.
It's completely alien to a lot of people. But if
you've only known suffering, that becomes your blanket, and it's
hard to take that blanket off.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, it's easy to put back on. Yeah, and it
feels very cozy and comfortable. Wah.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And so.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
That's why I says it's work, because you have to
continue to do it to give yourself the years, the days,
the time. And I hate that. I hate I'm so
impatient that it's time. But when you do start these
processes to learn, grow and change, it just is a
(14:47):
lot of time.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
And a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
So the number you threw out of days that you
were in color, it's kind of arbitrary, at least it
seems like it was.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Yeah, I'm not sure. Doesn't seem like a number you
put on a calendars? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yeah, I wasn't a specific on forty six yea.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
So what leads to you saying I'm ready to go
home now?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So I A lot of it is, I mean discussions
with your therapists and counselors there, and have you felt
like you've worked through enough of what you have worked
through to go home.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I was.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I did outpatient for several weeks towards the end, so
I would go home on weekends, which was a great opportunity.
They love that because you integrate a little bit back
into your life, because if you just step right back out,
there's alcohol, there's drugs, there's stress, there's like what what.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Does that look like there to become with?
Speaker 1 (15:45):
And so it was a great way. So I would
go home on weekends.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
I would go back to Pittsburgh and spend the weekends
with Jason and the kids and I would, and then
you come back and you can process that. So it
gives you an opportunity to go through some things over
the weekend, then come back and process all of that
with your therapists and your counselors and your groups. And again,
it's just builds the coping, it builds the education. And
(16:11):
so I did that for a couple of weeks towards
the end and yeah, ed, you know, it was just
conversations with everybody that was helping lead my therapy and
my treatment there, and we decided, you know, I'm ready
to take this and build on it outside of here,
(16:33):
and there's an opportunity, and I took it to do outpatient,
and so we were doing. I did Zoom Education three
days a week for four hours a day, and that
was just continued classes with people from the all points North.
So it was something that kind of keeps you invested
(16:55):
and keeps you practicing everything that you had done.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And I did that for twelve weeks after I left.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
You put the work in. Yeah, you really did.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
How terrifying was it to walk up to your kids
and your family again for the first time.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Terrifying.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I mean, I had I still had so much guilt.
So seeing the kids was almost like felt a little
scary for the first time, because I felt like, are
they going to be upset in somewhere?
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Are they going to be what had I done to them?
You know, what had I done to them in this
time that I was away? And so I was.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I was very fortunate to do some therapy sessions with
Sophia during that time, and so I would if anybody
ever needs you know that that was hugely helpful for
us because she could understand a little bit more of
what was going on, and kids need information. I think
that that was something that I didn't understand till I
(18:06):
went through this too. I wanted to protect them completely,
like the little like the less they know.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
The better.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I don't want them to know a thing. But then
kids will adopt their own narrative and they will make up.
They could blame themselves, they could.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
So to actually give.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Your kids information, for me, I believe is one of
the best things you can do. Appropriate information, of course,
but I had a therapist to guide me through what
that looks like. And there's so many books I've read,
so many articles on how to talk to your kids
about these things. And I think that giving your kids
information is a beautiful and really helpful thing, because again,
(18:48):
if you don't, they will make their own assumptions, narrative
story around it, and they'll build their own army, and it.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Might not be very healthy for them.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
So but seeing them, I mean, but also it was
the most beautiful thing because I felt very different, you know,
I felt like the same person, but such a healthier
version of me that when I got to see them
(19:22):
again and embrace them, I was like, we have a
fresh you know, we have a fresh start and I
and you know, and and things have been different, and
I felt like genuinelyy would genuinely would.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Be different for the kids.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
And so when I got to see them again, it
was also really incredible because I felt like they're getting
this new mom that's the healthier version and the mom
they deserve, and somebody who can help guide them and
has now education, and so that was.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
It was a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
But also, yeah, there was a lot of guilt just
being gone and what had I done to them. I
will say our relationships are stronger than ever, and I
don't you know, They'll always have that in their mind.
You know, that will always have affected them that I
was gone. But I will say that our relationships are
(20:30):
stronger than ever and that I am a much healthier
mom than an emotionally stable mom, and that's what I
want for them.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yeah, what about your relationship with Jason?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
You know, when I decided to do this, I truly
believe Jason's story is his to tell. You know, I
don't think it's fair for me to come on here
and talk to me much about our relationship.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
I will say none of what you saw was fake.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
We loved each other dearly and we're so happy for
such a long time. Nobody deserves to be on the
receiving end of your unhealed trauma, and that's what he was.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
That's really hard to admit and say, but he was
on the receiving end of my unhealed trauma for a
long time and that's very exhausting, and he tried really hard,
and so I will say what you saw was not fake.
(21:51):
You know, we built a lot together in a very
loving way, and we're very happy. It had so much fun.
But there is a point where.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
You know, there's there can be a breaking point for
people there can be a point where you just can't
come back for that person, and that's okay. You have
to be okay that not everybody's going to be able
to go on the journey with you, and that not
everybody is going to forgive you or stay in your life.
(22:28):
And that was a really difficult thing I learned in
treatment because I'm thinking I'm going to get better and
everything's going to be fine, right, Yeah, And there are
people who will not be in your life anymore, and
there are people that can't go on.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
That journey with you, and that is so hard. But
you have to accept that and respect it.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And again, he unfortunately was on the receiving end of
a lot of my unhealed trauma and he did not
deserve that, and I take accountability for that, and I
think that that is something important to recognize.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Listen, I'm hoping he hears this, because you just gave
him the biggest gift.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
That's a big gift, and I genuinely love him.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
He is such a good father and a good person
and he needs to be happy. He deserves to be happy.
He also gets one life and so he deserves all
of that too. And I hope our co parenting relationship
is a very beautiful thing for those kids, and a
(23:51):
lot of time.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
It takes time, you know, to get to those places.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
But one thing I did want to address, because it's
something I've been asked a lot and I've seen a lot.
I can say without a doubt that we were faithful
to each other. I know in my heart in everything
that he was faithful to me and I was loyal
(24:17):
to him.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
We were loyal to each other and.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Our marriage, and so I don't want there to be
anything out there with a question mark of whether or
not he was faithful to me or I was.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
To him, because that's important to me.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And we remained loyal to each other even through the
really difficult stuff. But and you know, he supported when
I came back from treatment. We had these events ones
called Winefest for goodness sakes, and I hosted it, which
was great because I was distracted.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
But.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
It was for Masnic Children's Hospital, where you know, give
sixteen supports. So we went.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
There and without even saying anything to me, he stayed
sober the entire time we were already in the divorce.
There was nothing he owed me, and I think that
that speaks to who he is, and I think that's
a nice thing to share because it just is an
example of a way he supported through this. But he
(25:21):
just he didn't drink at any of the events in
front of me, or even didn't drink at all at
the events to show support for me.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
We've we've inflicted ourselves on people.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
You know you do.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yeah, but now here we are so aside from the
family stuff, which is enormous, you're back in the world again. Yeah,
and you're living this day to day and there's not
a there's not a switch that can be flipped to saying,
oh I'm better now.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
What is a How much of a battle is day
to day for you?
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I you know, when you come out of treatment, I
was on kind of that high of what I learned
in treatment and this exciting new life and all of that.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So almost right away it felt.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I don't want to say easy, but like easier because
I was really into, you know, like everything. But then
things kind of level off. And a person like me
who was living the way I was living in fight
or flight.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Is used to chaos. So I live better in chaos.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
If something, if just a normal day happens, What can
I do to create something because I need I need actually,
you know, like I need the drama and so I
but a normal day was difficult for me, and so
as things got more normal, and to be honest, like,
(27:00):
we don't need to get too much into this, but
I you know, we moved down to Scottsdale for because
Jason was playing the Coyotes, So me and the kids
moved on to Scottsdale, and I didn't have the same
support that I had back here. So that was a
difficult time for me, and I didn't realize how much
(27:20):
work I was still doing. You know, I was really
trying to med it was. I was doing all the
things that I had wanted to do, but I was
still feeling pretty terrible at that point, and I did
have what I call a mental relapse. Luckily I haven't
had any problems with alcohol again, but I had what
I consider a mental relapse where my anxiety and depression
(27:44):
got pretty crippling for me for a while. And I
was surrounded by family who helped me get through it.
So that's another thing, and such a great question. Such
an important thing to note is that you don't come
out of treatment fixed. You don't come there's not a
day that you wake up and you're like, everything's perfect.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
It's going to.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Ebb and flow probably the rest of my life. But
as long as I will say what's been a beautiful
thing for me? Has, I've not had that same feeling
of suicidal ideation. I continue to value my life. Ye,
I have self worth. I do love myself now. I matter,
(28:26):
and it doesn't It's not because of what I've done.
It's because of just me being a person, like we
all just deserve it as a as a human right.
And so.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
I've been able to maintain that even through the difficult times,
which feels like a win to me. Yeah, it feels
like a win.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
It's the ultimate win.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Long a huge heartfelt thank you for listening. I promise
I'm not going to take this much time. I'm at
the end of every episode, but I did want to
say a special thank you to my family and friends
who have picked me up. They've sat with me, walked
with me, kept me going. I am just forever grateful
(29:12):
for what you have invested in me, So thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It would be too long to name all of you,
but you know who you are.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
A huge thank you to Chris Hockey for being just
an incredible friend and confidante and guiding me through this
interview today. Dave Plente for filming, Zach Halverson and Brett
Blake Moore for producing. Thank you all so much for
putting this together. You know, please look for more information
on the next episodes we'll be releasing every Thursday, and
(29:42):
they'll be on various topics. We're going to talk about
support systems and what it looks like to be on
the other side and have emotional conversations with my sister
and my family about that, and then have professionals talk
about what that looks like. Child psychologists will do an
ask us anything situation, so we are gonna have a
(30:04):
lot to talk about. Please visit my website here wee
Go podcast dot com for more information as we build
this community together, and most importantly, if you are in crisis,
reach out for help at NAMI dot org or call
one eight hundred two seven three eight two five five.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Thanks for listening Here we Go guys.
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