August 13, 2025 • 39 mins
Carly is joined by Pam Lanhart - the creator of Thrive. Losing a child is unimaginable for many of us and what we do after that loss what do we do? Pam created Thrive! - a Family Recovery Resource that takes a family-first approach to addiction and recovery with evidence-based solutions. If you’re looking for support (in many ways) this is the episode for you.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of Here We Go with Carly Zucker.
I apologize for the voice. I am battling some sort
of cold. I feel pretty fine, but my voice does
not sound pretty fine.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
So I apologize to.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Everybody out there who already had a tough time listening
to my voice. But it's worse now. So you're going
to have to bear with me for this episode. This
is going to be a great episode, though. I'm bringing
back a guest who has changed the lives of many
(00:41):
of the listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Her name is Pam Landhardt.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
She started Thrive, which is the organization in which helps
connect people to the right facility or treatment or person
if they are struck or if.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
They need help.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
And when I say need help, it could be on
many many levels. Doesn't mean you're checking yourself into rehab.
It doesn't mean that you only need thirty days of rehab.
Pam is a great resource to around the United States, right,
I mean, what's out there?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And so first I.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Want you to remind everybody what Thrive is and what
Thrive does, and then I'm going to.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Talk a little bit about why we brought you back.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Okay, well, thanks for having me again, Carly, because in
between episodes. We've just really developed a beautiful relationship and
I disrespect and admire you so much. And anytime we
can talk about stigma and we can change the narratives
around mental health and substance use, I think we need
(01:56):
to take that opportunity, and especially when we're on the
other side right and doing well. So Thrive Family Recovery
Resources is based out of Egan, Minnesota, and we do
operate nationally and even have a community that spans through
the entire continent world. Actually, so this is global. It
(02:20):
is and it amaz which sounds really big, you know,
it sounds big. But we do have people that attend
our virtual groups that are from all over the world
South Africa, Australia, Poland, Ukraine, but are the majority of
our people are from the United States and a small
percentage from Canada. So what we do really is we
(02:42):
support family members that are impacted by loved ones substance
use mental health issues. Usually they're co occurring, so it's
both most of the time, and we do a lot
of different things. So we help equip them with tools
and skills to learn how to show up differently in
(03:04):
the relationship that they have with their loved one. It's
very values driven. And then we help families navigate resources.
As you mentioned, I travel all over the country and
have partnerships with you know, really an amazing high level
professional network. So I work privately a lot with people
(03:24):
that you know, do have the financial resources to go
out and you know, get high level help. But I
also work with people that are on Medicaid and can't
afford to go to a bougie treatment center that us
you know, one hundred thousand dollars a month. And then
we also do educational workshops, which we'll have some coming up.
(03:46):
We just with a separate team outside to Thrive, created
an amazing documentary that we can put a little ps
in the notes for the show. Absolutely, yeah, and then
we just really do we do one on one So
I have a team of staff that will work with
any individual that calls in if they just if they
(04:08):
need help.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So tell me quickly about this documentary.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, and then we'll.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Touch base, like we'll circle back and do it at
the end as well.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yeah. So the documentary is called Together Family Recovery, and
I have a team of there it's women. You know.
It's interesting because I was thinking about the recovery community,
and almost all the recovery organizations in Minnesota were started
by women, I think because we just had.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
All we rule our rock.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yeah, although the producer, Jess he He is not a woman,
but it was. There's a couple of women, Shelley and
Kathy from the East Coast that I met years ago
who just were aligned ideology wise with what work I
was doing. And we started to years ago with an
(05:01):
idea for this documentary that is uplifting and inspiring and beautiful.
And it's all about three families that recovered together. So
recovery isn't just for the individual, whether you're talking about
mental health or substance us. The whole entire family system
(05:22):
is impacted, and sometimes the narrative is detached. Let go
stay in your own lane, don't ask them about their recovery.
But the outcomes actually are significantly better if you stop
keeping secrets and you do start working together, which is
(05:43):
really hard for someone who has been using substances and
they're very much filled with shame. They don't want to share,
they don't want to be honest. And you know, Carlia,
that's one of the things I love the most about you.
Is that you're so honest about your struggles and your recovery.
(06:05):
And when we start to get authentic about the crap
that we're going through, guess what happens. We inspire other
people to hold being wellness, and we inspire other people
to talk about these things that are typically really rooted
in shame. And so these three stories are stories of
families that work together and recovered together. They overcame incredibly
(06:30):
difficult barriers and obstacles, and they're all in recovery. And
I'm a family member. I grew up with parents that
had addiction. I have siblings that had addiction, I had
a son that had addiction, and I consider myself in
recovery because I had to do the work to get well.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
That is such I think a poignant thing that people
need to know is that it's not just about the
person using or who was using. I think we can't
stress that enough that it does impact the entire family
(07:12):
system or the system around that person.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And so I think.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
To provide resources for them is tremendous. I'm glad you're
doing it. I remember hearing something in treatment that secrets
make you sick, and I tried to bring that into
the podcast when you commended me for that, it was
(07:40):
It's truly this idea that if I'm not deeply honest
about the good the bad, you know, I could sugarcoat
some of this, and I don't want to because I
want to be honest. But I also want people out
there listening to know that this is a safe place
(08:02):
to speak your truth whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
That is one thing I forgot.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
So during our first interview, absolute amateur hour from me,
I did not even ask you the inspiration as to
why you created Thrive.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
And it is deeply.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Personal and so if you wouldn't mind, I'd love for
you to share a little bit about the inspiration behind
getting into this world of recovery.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for asking that question. My story really
starts with my parents, who both struggled, and I grew
up in a very unsafe home. I think I can
look back now and say, yeah, it was not healthy,
it was not safe. My go to behaviors were over achievement,
high functioning, you know, winning awards, doing right doing, because
(09:02):
it was so painful to just be. And I think
in my recovery, learning to just be has been the
greatest gift that it's not really about needing those kind
of worldly accolades. And then as I as I grew up,
I met my husband. We've been married. We just hit
(09:22):
forty four years the other day, which I think is
remarkable based on everything that we've been through. Forty four
four years years.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Congratulations first, And you know, I don't know how that
happens because the math doesn't add up. Yeah, the math
is a mask scene when I look at you by
the way, he's kidding.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
So then I have three siblings and recovery as well.
We knew that, and you know, there's sort of this
phrase addiction runs in families, but I don't know that
it's necessarily addiction. I think it's trauma. Every person starts
struggling based on pain, and we all deal with that
(10:03):
pain in different ways. So we have what I call
make it stop behaviors. Every person in recovery will say
I just wanted to feel better, And for a family member,
that make it stop behavior might be control or manipulation,
or external praise or eating disorders. You know, we all
have our stuff that we go to to make ourselves
(10:24):
feel better.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Right, Also in families, I just wanted to interject that,
like siblings or kids in the same household may not
have the same experience, right, And so if you're looking
at your brother or sister or whoever it is, and
(10:47):
your family going, well, they're okay, Why am I not? Okay?
You don't all have the same experience even if you
grow up in the same house.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, I mean I Gabor Mattas says that, he says,
no two kids are ever parented the same. So as
a parent, sometimes you can look and go, well, why
is one of my children an overachiever and the other
one struggling with mental health or substance use. And even
twins are never raised the same. And so you're right,
like your experiences and what happens to you when you're young,
(11:22):
the environment you grow up, there's so many different components.
And well, there is a biological component to mental health
and addiction. It's it's ten percent of the big picture.
So ninety percent is your trauma, the environment you grow
up in. Sometimes the things that happen to you while
(11:44):
you're growing up which aren't even rooted in your family system.
But then of course, if we don't heal the trauma,
we just pass it on. So the hurt people hurt people, right,
but healed people. Heal people, so the persecuted become the
persecutors if we don't heal. So that being said, I
(12:05):
knew there was this propensity in my family for substance use,
and unfortunately, my son started using substances at a very
early age. He was probably eleven or twelve. He said
the first time he smoked marijuana in the bathroom of
the public school, and he felt instantly like he fit in.
(12:25):
He felt better, you know, at that age, I don't
know that he could really express that, but uh, it
worked for him. It worked for him. It made him
feel better. It was his make it stop behavior, which
his you know, it made the pain stop, It made
(12:46):
the feelings of worthlessness stop. And you know, as a
parent who really tried very hard to make sure that
my kids grew up in an environment where they knew they
were loved and cared for and treasured and valued, he
didn't feel that way. And I often look back and wonder,
you know, was that something that we did or was
(13:08):
it just something that he was born with where he
just didn't feel good enough or didn't feel you know, right.
So his substance use progressed, and he was fifteen when
he went into treatment for the first time.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Wow, yeah, Oh, go ahead please.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Oh. I was going to just say, you know, we
knew enough to know because my mom had been in
treatment when I was seventeen, so like we knew the signs.
We wanted to get him help. He was willing to go,
but he was definitely the youngest person in the room
at the time.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, do you mind if I ask a few what
I would consider pretty personal and tough questions and you
can absolutely say no to answering them.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
I'm gonna open book.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
I am too, I'm a Yeah. Do you look back
and feel did you.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
I guess when he passed? How old was he when
he passed away? Yeah, So there's we went. We went
from him going to treatment the first time to him
passing away, and that actually was nine years in between.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
He was twenty four. So unfortunately, you know, our story
doesn't have what the world would consider a happy ending,
and yet the story in between is so powerful because
we started as a family doing important work. Now, why
(14:46):
did why did I start thriving? Because I couldn't find
high level, evidence based resources to help me parent my
kiddo better. And some people go to like twelve step
support groups, and with a son that was fifteen. I
didn't want to label him. I didn't want to call
(15:07):
him an attict. I didn't want to walk through this
speaking things over him that might have been self fulfilling prophecies,
you know, like, oh, if you don't get help, you're
going to die. Like I didn't want, I just I was.
I wanted. My narrative around this was so different that
Thrive started to disrupt that narrative. That is the passion
(15:32):
behind my work and hopefully my legacy, is that people
with substance use are not addicts, They're not junkies, they're
not losers, they're not making choices. This is a disease
that is so powerful that it grips people in spite
(15:53):
of their resistance, and like cancer, like other diseases, people
can die from it. So my work is always about
knowing that Jake could die, because we knew that early on.
That's what they told us when he was in treatment.
How do I want to live? How do I want
(16:15):
to show up in this? Because I did not want
to interact with him in a way that would be regretful,
that would contribute in any way to him wanting to
escape from our family, and I wouldn't want to be
able to look back and say, you know, or our
(16:36):
relationship was good, it was restored. I treated him with
human dignity, even though at times there was so much
pain in the journey.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Do you remember what your final moments were before he passed?
Obviously maybe not right up to but your experience with him.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah. What I remember very profoundly is in the I
don't know, it was about four years down the road,
so he would have been maybe seventeen. Uh, having a
couple of moments, and one was when someone who we
went to for counseling looked at us and said, are
you going to be right for the sake of justice
(17:21):
or are you going to love for the sake of relationship?
Because when we're in.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
A wow and will you say that again, that's wow.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Are you going to be right for the sake of justice?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Or are you going to love for the sake of relationship?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Wow? Okay? That's powerful.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
There's a book I read at the time called The
Anatomy and Peace, and it's really all about Emberne Brown's
book Braving the Wilderness as the same thing, like we
create power differentials in our life. We do it intentionally,
but unintentionally, you know what I mean, Like humanly, we
want to be right. We want to create these you know,
(17:59):
power differentials where I'm right, you're wrong. It's black and white,
and we make addiction and mental illness black and white,
and we sit on our you know, little judgment seat
and dehumanize the other person just so that I can
feel better about myself and all this. Or I can
take on the victim role, you know, poor me I am.
(18:22):
You know, I'm suffering, and you know it has to
be both, Like we do suffer, but we also have
to have personal responsibility in our own suffering. And there's
so many things I learned to do during Jake's addiction
to mitigate the suffering. Right. And then the second kind
of like pivotal thought that came into my mind was
(18:45):
if Jake got well, would I would he want to
have a relationship with me because I had gotten well?
Or would would you know how it is sometimes Carly
and relationships where you're like, you start to get well
and then you're like, I can't be around that person
because they're totally toxic. Yeah, I didn't want to be toxic.
(19:06):
I didn't want to be that person. I wanted to
be healthy for him because it was so important that
our relationship would be based on emotional well being, based
on healthy behaviors, and so like, if he got sober,
would he want to have a relationship with me? And
if he passed away, would I would we have regrets?
(19:28):
And this was long before he died, and so he
was in recovery. He had been in recovery for quite
a long time. We had done a lot of deep,
intense work. I had done trauma intensives and trauma therapy.
He had done trauma therapy. And of course there's the
rest of the family because he's got three siblings and
my husband. But I feel like we made a ton
(19:57):
of progress and he had an enough recovery time in
about a four year span from twenty seventeen till twenty
twenty when did he die twenty twenty one, where you know,
we did. We did a ton of work and was
it perfect now, because no relationship is. We're humans, right, right,
(20:19):
but so you know we we when he went back out,
he went back out, and within thirty six hours he
had passed away.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
That is one thing that we hear in.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Rehab is how fast it can happen when you relapse,
how hard, how fast, how aggressive That it's not.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I mean it can be, of.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Course a slow process, but for a lot of people
it hits hard.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I do want to ask you.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
We're going to talk mostly positive, but do you have
any regrets?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
You know, I think that the only one I have
is the night that he died. He was with a friend,
he had naloxo in and he saved his friend's life.
And there's a number that is a national number called
never use alone, and it's an eight hundred number. I'll
send it to you so you can put it in
the show notes. But you know, I think that's the
(21:19):
only thing. Looking back, I wish I would have said
to him, which seems very counterintuitive to say, if you're
going to use, don't use alone, Like as a parent,
you don't even want to believe that they could be
at risk for death. But looking back, you know, I
have all the text messages, I have his phone. I had.
The last thing I sent to him was I was
(21:42):
at a concert, a Lauren Diego concert, and there was
a song called Rescue and the words were like I
will send out an army to find you in.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
The middle of the darkest side. It's true, so good.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
And I sent him a clip that was a last
thing I sent him was a clip from that concert,
and I said, I love you, buddy, and so I
just I know we're not perfect. I know the meaning
of self compassion. I know the meaning of giving yourself grace.
I've had to reframe some narratives and do some trauma
(22:18):
work around that, because it's naturally you're gonna think what
if should I have done this? What if I would
have done this differently? But overall the answer is no.
Like I feel like the whole way that we interacted
with him in that last forty eight hours, we gave
him the dignity of choice, we gave him agency, We
(22:41):
communicated as a family. So I was in contact with
his girlfriend, who we are still absolutely obsessed with her
and we have a relationship with her. But I just
don't know that there, you know, I was just like, Jake,
we love you, there's no secrets. We can help you.
Just reach out. And you know how it is, Carly,
(23:02):
you said it yourself, like sometimes when you go back out,
and every time you go back out, it gets it's
quicker and deeper, and everything happens so fast that we
just like, we really didn't even have time. But the
instinctual decisions that we made were born out of the
(23:26):
recovery work that we did, and I do not have
any regrets about those.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That makes me happy to hear. I want to know
a little bit about Jake. What was he like? I
even want to know what was he like as a baby?
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Like?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
What was he like as a little kid.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Well, you know you talk about when you talk to
other parents that have kids that are struggling with substance us,
there's so many commonalities. Right. He was a little stinker.
He was a risk taker. He wouldn't climb, you know,
he wouldn't play down the slide or play on the swing.
He'd climb up and over the top of a place
(24:07):
that he wouldn't find the lowest branch on the tree,
he'd find the highest one. He didn't play basketball. He
climbed the basketball hoop up to the top and hung
upside down from it. I mean, he was just He
was actually a climber, and he ended up climbing mountains
in his recovery and got us all climbing mountains. So
(24:28):
from the beginning, he was just one of those kids
that you felt alive when you were in the room
with him. There was no mistaking when you were around Jake,
Like he was definitely not invisible.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Was it like a smile, his eyes, I mean, the
whole package.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Totally adorable, like he okay, we'll show the picture later.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
But yeah, I'll put a picture up with you know,
kind of blondish hair, blue eyes, all of my American smile.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
He looked like, you know, the all American kid next door.
He was an athlete. He played soccer when he was younger,
and then football, and then he played rugby, and he
was a excellent rugby player, like a selects rugby player.
And he was tiny. He was probably at the time
one thirty maybe and playing against guys that worth three
(25:21):
hundred pounds, and he was just you couldn't catch him.
He was so fast. So and he just he had
this exuberance about him. And so that I think, you know,
sometimes made the struggle even harder because it wasn't a
story where I could say, you know, he just struggled
(25:42):
with depression all of his life, or you know, he
definitely was kind of an ADHD kid, but he was
he had favor everywhere he went and when he'd go
to treatment, the treatment therapists would be like, oh my gosh,
this kid is so awesome, and they would just do
(26:03):
whatever they could to help him. And that was the
way people responded to him because he was just all
you would have to do is smile.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
How has his death influenced you now? And what happened after?
So we started Thrive obviously Thrive Yeah I didn't know,
but that actually we started that before he died.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Yeah, yeah, So we started Thrive in twenty sixteen, and
again it was really like to try to bring a
layer of support to parents that we didn't think they
were getting. And I won't go into too many details
about that. You can look us up on my website.
We have everything we do is free for families. But
(26:47):
one of the most significant things that has happened, and
I think that when you there's a book called The
Second Mountain that we were older parents when we had
him and when he died or you know, when he
went through his addiction. We were in our forties and
you really reevaluate your life, like why am I here?
(27:07):
What is my sense of purpose? And so for both
my husband and I, you know, we have these nonprofits
minus Thrive. He actually has a nonprofit called Wildheart's Adventures,
and we take teams out and get them out in
the wilderness, out camping, backpack camping, climbing mountains and doing
(27:31):
these hard things. And we really like to bring people
in recovery help because people think recovery is boring, that
there's nothing to do. And I'm like, oh yeah, why
don't you come and climb a mountain with us? So
our mission now is a little bit different. I love
(27:53):
working with the families that we work with, but I
also in our personal life. Our mission is to climb mountains.
We climb for Jake. There were fifty eight mountains in
Colorado over fourteen thousand foot in elevation, and when Jake died,
he had a board with all fifty eight peaks and
he had done eighteen unique ones, and so we're he
(28:15):
wanted to climb all fifty eight and so we're finishing
that mission for him. We use the hashtag fifty eight
for Jake. And now we've just I just summited all
the thirty eighth total summit, so we're twenty away from
reaching that goal of climbing all fifty eight fourteen ers
(28:35):
for Jake.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
So if someone is a climber they want to be involved,
could they get involved with this or is this closed
door policy at this point? Well?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
No, many people, you know what.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
So first of all, we do have public trips, so
you can go on Paul's website, Wildheart's Adventures.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
But public what.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Oh his public trips for those that tramps. No, I
was like, that's a totally different thing, Pam. Yeah, public
tramps is not what we're advertising.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
No, we're not talking about cramp.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Public trips it so he.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Takes teams out to like canoe down the the Saint
Crai River or you know, to go to the Boundary
Waters or hike on the Superior Hiking Trail. And then
for our Colorado trips, I have to tell you one
thing that just happened. Yeah, please, it was so cool.
I hope we don't because you just got.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
You're totally fine. We've got all the time in the world.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Pam just got back from from one of these trips
in Colorado.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
So we bring ashes up every time we go to
the top so he can sum it with us. And
then we do a little ceremony, and there was a
double summit, So I climbed the first mountain with a girlfriend,
and there was a second mountain that was really really
differ cult we were tired, so there was a group
(30:04):
that had kind of gathered to hear and be a
part of what we were doing. And they actually there
was about six climbers that went to the second mountain
with Jake's ashes and the sign and summited for him
and did that for him because I didn't think we
were going to be able to do it, and some
of these mountains are really hard. So we did bring
(30:26):
the climbing community in. And I mean, if anybody really
ever wanted to meet us out there or go on
a trip with us, or do a climb with us,
of course we would never say no to that. And
then the goal is the last climb we'll do is
Pike's Peak, and we'll invite the climbing community and anybody
(30:46):
who wants to climb with us that last summer or
celebrate with us on the top. And in the meantime,
we've my husband, my daughter was diagnosed with brain cancer,
and my husband was diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer, and
so when we talk about our recovery as family, we
talk about emotional wellbeing and resilience and determination. And through
(31:13):
the experience that we went through with Jake, it's equipped
us to manage and handle some really incredibly difficult circumstances
that have occurred since his death. And so how do
we do that? Right, Carly, how do you get through
the challenges of parenting in your recovery or being in
(31:36):
a relationship and having to deal with tough stuff? You
do it because you learned the practices in your personal
recovery to be able to stay the course even when
the world around you is falling apart.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
That's beautiful, well said. With all of that, you just said,
how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Yeah, I mean I think again the practices that I
have to stay regulated. I think I you know, recovery,
my family's addiction, my parents, there's with every situation, there's
(32:24):
good and bad, and you can become a victim or
you can learn what you need to do to kind
of overcome. And so for me personally, I have practices
like I get outside and walk every day. I read
probably four books a month, but I listen to them
(32:45):
on audible. I journal every day. I am intentional about
how I spend my time, so I actually read like
a recover. She recovers. I love Don Nichols and her
book I read something from that. I write down five
things every day I'm grateful for. And my daughter, our
(33:08):
twenty five year old, is leaving our host It'll be
the first time in forty one years we don't have
kids in our home. And so I said, I'm going
to be sending you my five things every single day,
you know, so that I can be accountable to that.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Right I Journaling is underrated, I think, and doing the
gratitude all things that again may seem small to someone.
I mean, it's not a massive undertaking each day, but
it is a big deal to do and it does
(33:41):
make a big change. Is there anything you would like
to say to parents who maybe on the other side,
you know, might not have the addiction, but might be
on the other side.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Is there anything that you.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Would say to them as they're going through or listening
to this and feeling maybe some despair or they're feeling frustration.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
What would you say to them?
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Well, first of all, it's totally normal, Like your feelings
are so valid and normal, and it is painful you
don't ever think, oh, when my kid grows up, they're
going to struggle with addiction or mental illness or whatever
the struggles are that they have. One of the things
that I have learned, there's two things I want to share.
(34:29):
One is we can walk through this with despair, or
we can walk through it with hope. People recover every
single day. There's forty million people in our country in recovery.
And so I'm looking back, even though we lost it,
I will be forever grateful that I never gave up hope.
(34:51):
I always believe that he would get into recovery and
sustain recovery forever. I pictured the two of us having
these kind of conversations on podcasts, right. So I'd rather
walk through life with hope than despair. That's number one.
Number two, and we've heard this from people in recovery.
(35:11):
The best thing their parents did for them was live
their life, get healthy, and do the things that they
loved in spite of what was happening in their family.
When you sacrifice your own health and well being, it
actually puts guilt on the person with the substance use
or mental illness. So they will say this when we
(35:35):
have speakers and share. Like the what Thrive taught my
mom was how to show up and live her life
in a meaningful way even when I was in active use.
And that modeling gave me the strength to move into recovery.
And so like we have power, we are not powerless.
(35:55):
Our superpower is the ability to make these choices to
be well. You know, people are like, oh, my kids
an active You should I go on vacation, one hundred
percent go on that vacation. Like, take care of yourself
because you're going on vacation isn't going to cause lay
(36:17):
for death with your loved one. Like, you don't have
that much power, But the power you do have is
to get well and show up healthy in your own
life and set that example for your loved one.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Well, you're just dropping beautiful bonds on us left and right.
Pam Landhart, one more time, just tell everybody a little
bit about Thrive in case they're interested in getting help
through Thrive.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Yeah, so the Thrive Family Recovery Resources. We do have
an open house coming up on a honest twentieth okay
this twentieth. We have a new location where we can
do drop in family. You can walk in and help.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yes, okay, that's amazing because my big one of the
biggest questions I get, one of the most frequent questions
I get from people on social.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Media is where do I go for help? What do
I do now for help?
Speaker 1 (37:18):
And so okay, So Thrive is offering an opportunity to
drop in.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Yeah, right, so our Egan location, which the address will
be in the notes also for the podcast. It's the
hours are like nine to five daily. We have naloxon,
teutinal test reps, ilusine test rips. We can help navigate
first steps towards help, and of course we can engage
(37:48):
with if you're a family member and you have a
loved one and you're like, what do I do? Where
do I go? Like, we can be that very first
entry point for you to support you so that you
can and support your love one. So open house from
five to eight. We're doing an o lock zone training
from seven to eight at the location in Egan.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
And is that training just for anybody who might not know.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
No.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Lock Zone is the reversal medication for opioid overdoses, and
so it's to administer different ways and you know, we
I just had a mom who was walking down the
street and someone was overdosing and she didn't have no
lock zone on her and she walked in and she's like,
I think I need this. So if you have a
(38:37):
parent or a grandparent that's taking any kind of opioid medications,
we just always recommend people just carry it. You can
just carry it in your purse. It's perfectly legal. If
you save somebody's life, you have immunity. So anyway, it's
we'll tell you more about that at that training and
perfect a sign up on event right. So, and then
(38:58):
we have this documentary and the week of the twenty
second through the twenty ninth, we're going to be having
an opportunity for people to kind of pre screen it virtually.
And so the best thing to do is to sign
up for our newsletter which is on our website which
is Thrive thh R ive E f r R dot org.
(39:20):
Sign up for that newsletter. We're keep in touch with
us because we again and we're going to have a
ton of stuff going on in the fall.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Pam, thank you so much for coming back on here.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
We go to talk a little bit more to tell
us about Jake keep his memory alive.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
So thank you again so much.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Thanks for having me Carly.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yeah, that's another episode of Here we Go, giving you
all the information you need to know mental health, addiction,
and so much more. Thanks for joining us. Join us
next time for Here we Go
Welcome to another episode of Here We Go with Carly Zucker.
I apologize for the voice. I am battling some sort
of cold. I feel pretty fine, but my voice does
not sound pretty fine.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
So I apologize to.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Everybody out there who already had a tough time listening
to my voice. But it's worse now. So you're going
to have to bear with me for this episode. This
is going to be a great episode, though. I'm bringing
back a guest who has changed the lives of many
(00:41):
of the listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Her name is Pam Landhardt.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
She started Thrive, which is the organization in which helps
connect people to the right facility or treatment or person
if they are struck or if.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
They need help.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
And when I say need help, it could be on
many many levels. Doesn't mean you're checking yourself into rehab.
It doesn't mean that you only need thirty days of rehab.
Pam is a great resource to around the United States, right,
I mean, what's out there?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And so first I.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Want you to remind everybody what Thrive is and what
Thrive does, and then I'm going to.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Talk a little bit about why we brought you back.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Okay, well, thanks for having me again, Carly, because in
between episodes. We've just really developed a beautiful relationship and
I disrespect and admire you so much. And anytime we
can talk about stigma and we can change the narratives
around mental health and substance use, I think we need
(01:56):
to take that opportunity, and especially when we're on the
other side right and doing well. So Thrive Family Recovery
Resources is based out of Egan, Minnesota, and we do
operate nationally and even have a community that spans through
the entire continent world. Actually, so this is global. It
(02:20):
is and it amaz which sounds really big, you know,
it sounds big. But we do have people that attend
our virtual groups that are from all over the world
South Africa, Australia, Poland, Ukraine, but are the majority of
our people are from the United States and a small
percentage from Canada. So what we do really is we
(02:42):
support family members that are impacted by loved ones substance
use mental health issues. Usually they're co occurring, so it's
both most of the time, and we do a lot
of different things. So we help equip them with tools
and skills to learn how to show up differently in
(03:04):
the relationship that they have with their loved one. It's
very values driven. And then we help families navigate resources.
As you mentioned, I travel all over the country and
have partnerships with you know, really an amazing high level
professional network. So I work privately a lot with people
(03:24):
that you know, do have the financial resources to go
out and you know, get high level help. But I
also work with people that are on Medicaid and can't
afford to go to a bougie treatment center that us
you know, one hundred thousand dollars a month. And then
we also do educational workshops, which we'll have some coming up.
(03:46):
We just with a separate team outside to Thrive, created
an amazing documentary that we can put a little ps
in the notes for the show. Absolutely, yeah, and then
we just really do we do one on one So
I have a team of staff that will work with
any individual that calls in if they just if they
(04:08):
need help.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So tell me quickly about this documentary.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, and then we'll.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Touch base, like we'll circle back and do it at
the end as well.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yeah. So the documentary is called Together Family Recovery, and
I have a team of there it's women. You know.
It's interesting because I was thinking about the recovery community,
and almost all the recovery organizations in Minnesota were started
by women, I think because we just had.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
All we rule our rock.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yeah, although the producer, Jess he He is not a woman,
but it was. There's a couple of women, Shelley and
Kathy from the East Coast that I met years ago
who just were aligned ideology wise with what work I
was doing. And we started to years ago with an
(05:01):
idea for this documentary that is uplifting and inspiring and beautiful.
And it's all about three families that recovered together. So
recovery isn't just for the individual, whether you're talking about
mental health or substance us. The whole entire family system
(05:22):
is impacted, and sometimes the narrative is detached. Let go
stay in your own lane, don't ask them about their recovery.
But the outcomes actually are significantly better if you stop
keeping secrets and you do start working together, which is
(05:43):
really hard for someone who has been using substances and
they're very much filled with shame. They don't want to share,
they don't want to be honest. And you know, Carlia,
that's one of the things I love the most about you.
Is that you're so honest about your struggles and your recovery.
(06:05):
And when we start to get authentic about the crap
that we're going through, guess what happens. We inspire other
people to hold being wellness, and we inspire other people
to talk about these things that are typically really rooted
in shame. And so these three stories are stories of
families that work together and recovered together. They overcame incredibly
(06:30):
difficult barriers and obstacles, and they're all in recovery. And
I'm a family member. I grew up with parents that
had addiction. I have siblings that had addiction, I had
a son that had addiction, and I consider myself in
recovery because I had to do the work to get well.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
That is such I think a poignant thing that people
need to know is that it's not just about the
person using or who was using. I think we can't
stress that enough that it does impact the entire family
(07:12):
system or the system around that person.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And so I think.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
To provide resources for them is tremendous. I'm glad you're
doing it. I remember hearing something in treatment that secrets
make you sick, and I tried to bring that into
the podcast when you commended me for that, it was
(07:40):
It's truly this idea that if I'm not deeply honest
about the good the bad, you know, I could sugarcoat
some of this, and I don't want to because I
want to be honest. But I also want people out
there listening to know that this is a safe place
(08:02):
to speak your truth whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
That is one thing I forgot.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
So during our first interview, absolute amateur hour from me,
I did not even ask you the inspiration as to
why you created Thrive.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
And it is deeply.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Personal and so if you wouldn't mind, I'd love for
you to share a little bit about the inspiration behind
getting into this world of recovery.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for asking that question. My story really
starts with my parents, who both struggled, and I grew
up in a very unsafe home. I think I can
look back now and say, yeah, it was not healthy,
it was not safe. My go to behaviors were over achievement,
high functioning, you know, winning awards, doing right doing, because
(09:02):
it was so painful to just be. And I think
in my recovery, learning to just be has been the
greatest gift that it's not really about needing those kind
of worldly accolades. And then as I as I grew up,
I met my husband. We've been married. We just hit
(09:22):
forty four years the other day, which I think is
remarkable based on everything that we've been through. Forty four
four years years.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Congratulations first, And you know, I don't know how that
happens because the math doesn't add up. Yeah, the math
is a mask scene when I look at you by
the way, he's kidding.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
So then I have three siblings and recovery as well.
We knew that, and you know, there's sort of this
phrase addiction runs in families, but I don't know that
it's necessarily addiction. I think it's trauma. Every person starts
struggling based on pain, and we all deal with that
(10:03):
pain in different ways. So we have what I call
make it stop behaviors. Every person in recovery will say
I just wanted to feel better, And for a family member,
that make it stop behavior might be control or manipulation,
or external praise or eating disorders. You know, we all
have our stuff that we go to to make ourselves
(10:24):
feel better.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Right, Also in families, I just wanted to interject that,
like siblings or kids in the same household may not
have the same experience, right, And so if you're looking
at your brother or sister or whoever it is, and
(10:47):
your family going, well, they're okay, Why am I not? Okay?
You don't all have the same experience even if you
grow up in the same house.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, I mean I Gabor Mattas says that, he says,
no two kids are ever parented the same. So as
a parent, sometimes you can look and go, well, why
is one of my children an overachiever and the other
one struggling with mental health or substance use. And even
twins are never raised the same. And so you're right,
like your experiences and what happens to you when you're young,
(11:22):
the environment you grow up, there's so many different components.
And well, there is a biological component to mental health
and addiction. It's it's ten percent of the big picture.
So ninety percent is your trauma, the environment you grow
up in. Sometimes the things that happen to you while
(11:44):
you're growing up which aren't even rooted in your family system.
But then of course, if we don't heal the trauma,
we just pass it on. So the hurt people hurt people, right,
but healed people. Heal people, so the persecuted become the
persecutors if we don't heal. So that being said, I
(12:05):
knew there was this propensity in my family for substance use,
and unfortunately, my son started using substances at a very
early age. He was probably eleven or twelve. He said
the first time he smoked marijuana in the bathroom of
the public school, and he felt instantly like he fit in.
(12:25):
He felt better, you know, at that age, I don't
know that he could really express that, but uh, it
worked for him. It worked for him. It made him
feel better. It was his make it stop behavior, which
his you know, it made the pain stop, It made
(12:46):
the feelings of worthlessness stop. And you know, as a
parent who really tried very hard to make sure that
my kids grew up in an environment where they knew they
were loved and cared for and treasured and valued, he
didn't feel that way. And I often look back and wonder,
you know, was that something that we did or was
(13:08):
it just something that he was born with where he
just didn't feel good enough or didn't feel you know, right.
So his substance use progressed, and he was fifteen when
he went into treatment for the first time.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Wow, yeah, Oh, go ahead please.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Oh. I was going to just say, you know, we
knew enough to know because my mom had been in
treatment when I was seventeen, so like we knew the signs.
We wanted to get him help. He was willing to go,
but he was definitely the youngest person in the room
at the time.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, do you mind if I ask a few what
I would consider pretty personal and tough questions and you
can absolutely say no to answering them.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
I'm gonna open book.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
I am too, I'm a Yeah. Do you look back
and feel did you.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
I guess when he passed? How old was he when
he passed away? Yeah, So there's we went. We went
from him going to treatment the first time to him
passing away, and that actually was nine years in between.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
He was twenty four. So unfortunately, you know, our story
doesn't have what the world would consider a happy ending,
and yet the story in between is so powerful because
we started as a family doing important work. Now, why
(14:46):
did why did I start thriving? Because I couldn't find
high level, evidence based resources to help me parent my
kiddo better. And some people go to like twelve step
support groups, and with a son that was fifteen. I
didn't want to label him. I didn't want to call
(15:07):
him an attict. I didn't want to walk through this
speaking things over him that might have been self fulfilling prophecies,
you know, like, oh, if you don't get help, you're
going to die. Like I didn't want, I just I was.
I wanted. My narrative around this was so different that
Thrive started to disrupt that narrative. That is the passion
(15:32):
behind my work and hopefully my legacy, is that people
with substance use are not addicts, They're not junkies, they're
not losers, they're not making choices. This is a disease
that is so powerful that it grips people in spite
(15:53):
of their resistance, and like cancer, like other diseases, people
can die from it. So my work is always about
knowing that Jake could die, because we knew that early on.
That's what they told us when he was in treatment.
How do I want to live? How do I want
(16:15):
to show up in this? Because I did not want
to interact with him in a way that would be regretful,
that would contribute in any way to him wanting to
escape from our family, and I wouldn't want to be
able to look back and say, you know, or our
(16:36):
relationship was good, it was restored. I treated him with
human dignity, even though at times there was so much
pain in the journey.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Do you remember what your final moments were before he passed?
Obviously maybe not right up to but your experience with him.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah. What I remember very profoundly is in the I
don't know, it was about four years down the road,
so he would have been maybe seventeen. Uh, having a
couple of moments, and one was when someone who we
went to for counseling looked at us and said, are
you going to be right for the sake of justice
(17:21):
or are you going to love for the sake of relationship?
Because when we're in.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
A wow and will you say that again, that's wow.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Are you going to be right for the sake of justice?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Or are you going to love for the sake of relationship?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Wow? Okay? That's powerful.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
There's a book I read at the time called The
Anatomy and Peace, and it's really all about Emberne Brown's
book Braving the Wilderness as the same thing, like we
create power differentials in our life. We do it intentionally,
but unintentionally, you know what I mean, Like humanly, we
want to be right. We want to create these you know,
(17:59):
power differentials where I'm right, you're wrong. It's black and white,
and we make addiction and mental illness black and white,
and we sit on our you know, little judgment seat
and dehumanize the other person just so that I can
feel better about myself and all this. Or I can
take on the victim role, you know, poor me I am.
(18:22):
You know, I'm suffering, and you know it has to
be both, Like we do suffer, but we also have
to have personal responsibility in our own suffering. And there's
so many things I learned to do during Jake's addiction
to mitigate the suffering. Right. And then the second kind
of like pivotal thought that came into my mind was
(18:45):
if Jake got well, would I would he want to
have a relationship with me because I had gotten well?
Or would would you know how it is sometimes Carly
and relationships where you're like, you start to get well
and then you're like, I can't be around that person
because they're totally toxic. Yeah, I didn't want to be toxic.
(19:06):
I didn't want to be that person. I wanted to
be healthy for him because it was so important that
our relationship would be based on emotional well being, based
on healthy behaviors, and so like, if he got sober,
would he want to have a relationship with me? And
if he passed away, would I would we have regrets?
(19:28):
And this was long before he died, and so he
was in recovery. He had been in recovery for quite
a long time. We had done a lot of deep,
intense work. I had done trauma intensives and trauma therapy.
He had done trauma therapy. And of course there's the
rest of the family because he's got three siblings and
my husband. But I feel like we made a ton
(19:57):
of progress and he had an enough recovery time in
about a four year span from twenty seventeen till twenty
twenty when did he die twenty twenty one, where you know,
we did. We did a ton of work and was
it perfect now, because no relationship is. We're humans, right, right,
(20:19):
but so you know we we when he went back out,
he went back out, and within thirty six hours he
had passed away.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
That is one thing that we hear in.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Rehab is how fast it can happen when you relapse,
how hard, how fast, how aggressive That it's not.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I mean it can be, of.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Course a slow process, but for a lot of people
it hits hard.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I do want to ask you.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
We're going to talk mostly positive, but do you have
any regrets?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
You know, I think that the only one I have
is the night that he died. He was with a friend,
he had naloxo in and he saved his friend's life.
And there's a number that is a national number called
never use alone, and it's an eight hundred number. I'll
send it to you so you can put it in
the show notes. But you know, I think that's the
(21:19):
only thing. Looking back, I wish I would have said
to him, which seems very counterintuitive to say, if you're
going to use, don't use alone, Like as a parent,
you don't even want to believe that they could be
at risk for death. But looking back, you know, I
have all the text messages, I have his phone. I had.
The last thing I sent to him was I was
(21:42):
at a concert, a Lauren Diego concert, and there was
a song called Rescue and the words were like I
will send out an army to find you in.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
The middle of the darkest side. It's true, so good.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
And I sent him a clip that was a last
thing I sent him was a clip from that concert,
and I said, I love you, buddy, and so I
just I know we're not perfect. I know the meaning
of self compassion. I know the meaning of giving yourself grace.
I've had to reframe some narratives and do some trauma
(22:18):
work around that, because it's naturally you're gonna think what
if should I have done this? What if I would
have done this differently? But overall the answer is no.
Like I feel like the whole way that we interacted
with him in that last forty eight hours, we gave
him the dignity of choice, we gave him agency, We
(22:41):
communicated as a family. So I was in contact with
his girlfriend, who we are still absolutely obsessed with her
and we have a relationship with her. But I just
don't know that there, you know, I was just like, Jake,
we love you, there's no secrets. We can help you.
Just reach out. And you know how it is, Carly,
(23:02):
you said it yourself, like sometimes when you go back out,
and every time you go back out, it gets it's
quicker and deeper, and everything happens so fast that we
just like, we really didn't even have time. But the
instinctual decisions that we made were born out of the
(23:26):
recovery work that we did, and I do not have
any regrets about those.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That makes me happy to hear. I want to know
a little bit about Jake. What was he like? I
even want to know what was he like as a baby?
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Like?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
What was he like as a little kid.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Well, you know you talk about when you talk to
other parents that have kids that are struggling with substance us,
there's so many commonalities. Right. He was a little stinker.
He was a risk taker. He wouldn't climb, you know,
he wouldn't play down the slide or play on the swing.
He'd climb up and over the top of a place
(24:07):
that he wouldn't find the lowest branch on the tree,
he'd find the highest one. He didn't play basketball. He
climbed the basketball hoop up to the top and hung
upside down from it. I mean, he was just He
was actually a climber, and he ended up climbing mountains
in his recovery and got us all climbing mountains. So
(24:28):
from the beginning, he was just one of those kids
that you felt alive when you were in the room
with him. There was no mistaking when you were around Jake,
Like he was definitely not invisible.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Was it like a smile, his eyes, I mean, the
whole package.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Totally adorable, like he okay, we'll show the picture later.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
But yeah, I'll put a picture up with you know,
kind of blondish hair, blue eyes, all of my American smile.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
He looked like, you know, the all American kid next door.
He was an athlete. He played soccer when he was younger,
and then football, and then he played rugby, and he
was a excellent rugby player, like a selects rugby player.
And he was tiny. He was probably at the time
one thirty maybe and playing against guys that worth three
(25:21):
hundred pounds, and he was just you couldn't catch him.
He was so fast. So and he just he had
this exuberance about him. And so that I think, you know,
sometimes made the struggle even harder because it wasn't a
story where I could say, you know, he just struggled
(25:42):
with depression all of his life, or you know, he
definitely was kind of an ADHD kid, but he was
he had favor everywhere he went and when he'd go
to treatment, the treatment therapists would be like, oh my gosh,
this kid is so awesome, and they would just do
(26:03):
whatever they could to help him. And that was the
way people responded to him because he was just all
you would have to do is smile.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
How has his death influenced you now? And what happened after?
So we started Thrive obviously Thrive Yeah I didn't know,
but that actually we started that before he died.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Yeah, yeah, So we started Thrive in twenty sixteen, and
again it was really like to try to bring a
layer of support to parents that we didn't think they
were getting. And I won't go into too many details
about that. You can look us up on my website.
We have everything we do is free for families. But
(26:47):
one of the most significant things that has happened, and
I think that when you there's a book called The
Second Mountain that we were older parents when we had
him and when he died or you know, when he
went through his addiction. We were in our forties and
you really reevaluate your life, like why am I here?
(27:07):
What is my sense of purpose? And so for both
my husband and I, you know, we have these nonprofits
minus Thrive. He actually has a nonprofit called Wildheart's Adventures,
and we take teams out and get them out in
the wilderness, out camping, backpack camping, climbing mountains and doing
(27:31):
these hard things. And we really like to bring people
in recovery help because people think recovery is boring, that
there's nothing to do. And I'm like, oh yeah, why
don't you come and climb a mountain with us? So
our mission now is a little bit different. I love
(27:53):
working with the families that we work with, but I
also in our personal life. Our mission is to climb mountains.
We climb for Jake. There were fifty eight mountains in
Colorado over fourteen thousand foot in elevation, and when Jake died,
he had a board with all fifty eight peaks and
he had done eighteen unique ones, and so we're he
(28:15):
wanted to climb all fifty eight and so we're finishing
that mission for him. We use the hashtag fifty eight
for Jake. And now we've just I just summited all
the thirty eighth total summit, so we're twenty away from
reaching that goal of climbing all fifty eight fourteen ers
(28:35):
for Jake.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
So if someone is a climber they want to be involved,
could they get involved with this or is this closed
door policy at this point? Well?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
No, many people, you know what.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
So first of all, we do have public trips, so
you can go on Paul's website, Wildheart's Adventures.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
But public what.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Oh his public trips for those that tramps. No, I
was like, that's a totally different thing, Pam. Yeah, public
tramps is not what we're advertising.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
No, we're not talking about cramp.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Public trips it so he.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Takes teams out to like canoe down the the Saint
Crai River or you know, to go to the Boundary
Waters or hike on the Superior Hiking Trail. And then
for our Colorado trips, I have to tell you one
thing that just happened. Yeah, please, it was so cool.
I hope we don't because you just got.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
You're totally fine. We've got all the time in the world.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Pam just got back from from one of these trips
in Colorado.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
So we bring ashes up every time we go to
the top so he can sum it with us. And
then we do a little ceremony, and there was a
double summit, So I climbed the first mountain with a girlfriend,
and there was a second mountain that was really really
differ cult we were tired, so there was a group
(30:04):
that had kind of gathered to hear and be a
part of what we were doing. And they actually there
was about six climbers that went to the second mountain
with Jake's ashes and the sign and summited for him
and did that for him because I didn't think we
were going to be able to do it, and some
of these mountains are really hard. So we did bring
(30:26):
the climbing community in. And I mean, if anybody really
ever wanted to meet us out there or go on
a trip with us, or do a climb with us,
of course we would never say no to that. And
then the goal is the last climb we'll do is
Pike's Peak, and we'll invite the climbing community and anybody
(30:46):
who wants to climb with us that last summer or
celebrate with us on the top. And in the meantime,
we've my husband, my daughter was diagnosed with brain cancer,
and my husband was diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer, and
so when we talk about our recovery as family, we
talk about emotional wellbeing and resilience and determination. And through
(31:13):
the experience that we went through with Jake, it's equipped
us to manage and handle some really incredibly difficult circumstances
that have occurred since his death. And so how do
we do that? Right, Carly, how do you get through
the challenges of parenting in your recovery or being in
(31:36):
a relationship and having to deal with tough stuff? You
do it because you learned the practices in your personal
recovery to be able to stay the course even when
the world around you is falling apart.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
That's beautiful, well said. With all of that, you just said,
how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Yeah, I mean I think again the practices that I
have to stay regulated. I think I you know, recovery,
my family's addiction, my parents, there's with every situation, there's
(32:24):
good and bad, and you can become a victim or
you can learn what you need to do to kind
of overcome. And so for me personally, I have practices
like I get outside and walk every day. I read
probably four books a month, but I listen to them
(32:45):
on audible. I journal every day. I am intentional about
how I spend my time, so I actually read like
a recover. She recovers. I love Don Nichols and her
book I read something from that. I write down five
things every day I'm grateful for. And my daughter, our
(33:08):
twenty five year old, is leaving our host It'll be
the first time in forty one years we don't have
kids in our home. And so I said, I'm going
to be sending you my five things every single day,
you know, so that I can be accountable to that.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Right I Journaling is underrated, I think, and doing the
gratitude all things that again may seem small to someone.
I mean, it's not a massive undertaking each day, but
it is a big deal to do and it does
(33:41):
make a big change. Is there anything you would like
to say to parents who maybe on the other side,
you know, might not have the addiction, but might be
on the other side.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Is there anything that you.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Would say to them as they're going through or listening
to this and feeling maybe some despair or they're feeling frustration.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
What would you say to them?
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Well, first of all, it's totally normal, Like your feelings
are so valid and normal, and it is painful you
don't ever think, oh, when my kid grows up, they're
going to struggle with addiction or mental illness or whatever
the struggles are that they have. One of the things
that I have learned, there's two things I want to share.
(34:29):
One is we can walk through this with despair, or
we can walk through it with hope. People recover every
single day. There's forty million people in our country in recovery.
And so I'm looking back, even though we lost it,
I will be forever grateful that I never gave up hope.
(34:51):
I always believe that he would get into recovery and
sustain recovery forever. I pictured the two of us having
these kind of conversations on podcasts, right. So I'd rather
walk through life with hope than despair. That's number one.
Number two, and we've heard this from people in recovery.
(35:11):
The best thing their parents did for them was live
their life, get healthy, and do the things that they
loved in spite of what was happening in their family.
When you sacrifice your own health and well being, it
actually puts guilt on the person with the substance use
or mental illness. So they will say this when we
(35:35):
have speakers and share. Like the what Thrive taught my
mom was how to show up and live her life
in a meaningful way even when I was in active use.
And that modeling gave me the strength to move into recovery.
And so like we have power, we are not powerless.
(35:55):
Our superpower is the ability to make these choices to
be well. You know, people are like, oh, my kids
an active You should I go on vacation, one hundred
percent go on that vacation. Like, take care of yourself
because you're going on vacation isn't going to cause lay
(36:17):
for death with your loved one. Like, you don't have
that much power, But the power you do have is
to get well and show up healthy in your own
life and set that example for your loved one.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Well, you're just dropping beautiful bonds on us left and right.
Pam Landhart, one more time, just tell everybody a little
bit about Thrive in case they're interested in getting help
through Thrive.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Yeah, so the Thrive Family Recovery Resources. We do have
an open house coming up on a honest twentieth okay
this twentieth. We have a new location where we can
do drop in family. You can walk in and help.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yes, okay, that's amazing because my big one of the
biggest questions I get, one of the most frequent questions
I get from people on social.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Media is where do I go for help? What do
I do now for help?
Speaker 1 (37:18):
And so okay, So Thrive is offering an opportunity to
drop in.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Yeah, right, so our Egan location, which the address will
be in the notes also for the podcast. It's the
hours are like nine to five daily. We have naloxon,
teutinal test reps, ilusine test rips. We can help navigate
first steps towards help, and of course we can engage
(37:48):
with if you're a family member and you have a
loved one and you're like, what do I do? Where
do I go? Like, we can be that very first
entry point for you to support you so that you
can and support your love one. So open house from
five to eight. We're doing an o lock zone training
from seven to eight at the location in Egan.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
And is that training just for anybody who might not know.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
No.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Lock Zone is the reversal medication for opioid overdoses, and
so it's to administer different ways and you know, we
I just had a mom who was walking down the
street and someone was overdosing and she didn't have no
lock zone on her and she walked in and she's like,
I think I need this. So if you have a
(38:37):
parent or a grandparent that's taking any kind of opioid medications,
we just always recommend people just carry it. You can
just carry it in your purse. It's perfectly legal. If
you save somebody's life, you have immunity. So anyway, it's
we'll tell you more about that at that training and
perfect a sign up on event right. So, and then
(38:58):
we have this documentary and the week of the twenty
second through the twenty ninth, we're going to be having
an opportunity for people to kind of pre screen it virtually.
And so the best thing to do is to sign
up for our newsletter which is on our website which
is Thrive thh R ive E f r R dot org.
(39:20):
Sign up for that newsletter. We're keep in touch with
us because we again and we're going to have a
ton of stuff going on in the fall.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Pam, thank you so much for coming back on here.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
We go to talk a little bit more to tell
us about Jake keep his memory alive.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
So thank you again so much.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Thanks for having me Carly.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yeah, that's another episode of Here we Go, giving you
all the information you need to know mental health, addiction,
and so much more. Thanks for joining us. Join us
next time for Here we Go
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