August 4, 2025 • 35 mins
Kicking off season 2 with an eye-opening interview: Dr. Brenden Turvo-Clemmens is an Assistant Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at University of Minnesota sharing the latest clinical advances when treating mental health.
Fighting social stigma, tying mental health and substance use and more… we learn from Dr. Turvo-Clemmens who is an integral figure in the research and treatment at Masonic institute of the developing brain. Masonic is redefining brain health and the way we treat and understand mental health with a specialty in substance use disorders - specifically adolescents.
You’ll be wow’d at the information Dr. Turvo-Clemmens shares with us. Most importantly, he provides hope for people who may be struggling. Welcome back! Thanks for listening.
Fighting social stigma, tying mental health and substance use and more… we learn from Dr. Turvo-Clemmens who is an integral figure in the research and treatment at Masonic institute of the developing brain. Masonic is redefining brain health and the way we treat and understand mental health with a specialty in substance use disorders - specifically adolescents.
You’ll be wow’d at the information Dr. Turvo-Clemmens shares with us. Most importantly, he provides hope for people who may be struggling. Welcome back! Thanks for listening.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to season two of Here We Go. This is
Carly Zucker.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I could not believe the response that we got from
season one. Every episode I was receiving DMS emails from
people who felt like they learned something, who felt like
they could relate, who felt like their stories or they
(00:25):
were finally being heard. And I just I cherish that,
and it makes sharing some deeply personal things worthwhile absolutely,
And so we decided Meana Brett Blake Moore over there,
my producer, Hi are.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You he's back. I convinced him to do season two
with me.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
But yeah, we're just so grateful for everyone who's listened,
who shared it with other people, family, and please continue
to do so, because the more we get people to listen,
the bigger reach we have.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
And so we are kicking off.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
This season with a professional We're going we're gonna go
hardcore right from the beginning. But again, so glad to
have everybody back and we have with us today. Brendan
Turvo Clemens, right, am I saying that?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's a mouthful, but yeah, you're a PhD. So it's right,
Doctor Turvo Clement.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
My mom would be it would be important for her
that you called me doctor, but yes, my friends just
call me Brendan. We can stick with Brendan.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Can we just be like doctor TD. Do you have
a nickname?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Well, the kids that I see when I when I'm
doing clinical work, they often call me doctor Brendan because
my last name is hyphenated and it's kind of a mouthful.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, but I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
And you're the assistant Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences
and this is.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
At the University of Minnesota.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Absolutely so. My academic title is Assistant Professor in Psychiatry
and Behavioral Science. Is here at the University of Minnesota.
Go Golden grow first. I'm still relatively new, but I'm learning.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I'm more Huskies, but that's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
We won't let it interfere with this relationship.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yeah. Well, I moved in the East Coast. I'm still
new to these Big ten rivalries and sports rivalries. I'm
in general, but partly probably what was on your sheet
and kind of part of what I do is I
also work at the Masonic Institute for the Developing Brain,
which is a multidisciplinary, relatively new effort from the university
(02:37):
that pulls people from multiple different departments. So psychiatry like myself,
people that are focused on mental health, pediatrics, people that
are more focused generally in child development, as well as
a host of people from neuroscience and psychology. And the
goal is that we're all focused on what we define
as brain health, which is mental health and more generally
(02:58):
cognitive development and healthy development. So we all the university
kind of rounded us all up and put us into
one place to kind of solve these big pressing issues
for child and adolescent mental health. And my work is
particularly in the space of adolescence. So I'm interested in
the teenage years, the second decade of life, and in
(03:18):
particular sort of the emergence of psychiatric and substance use
disorders and in particular how those are intertwined often.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
That's really interesting. Okay, So I don't know if you
know anything about my background. I was going to give
you a tiny bit because some of that is going
to shape some of the questions that.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I ask you.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So, I grew up with some childhood trauma. Some in
my adolescent young adult years, I struggled with drinking right
out of the gate. I mean, by thirteen, I was
blackout drinking. So sorry to hear I'm sober two.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
And a half years, So there we go.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Also mental health diagnoses. You know, it's been I went
to a trauma therapy center and we have basically for
eighty days. It was very beneficial for me. So that's
going to shape some of the questions that I ask you.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Sure. One of them right out of the gate is
what are some of the things we are doing.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
What I'm so fascinated with is the work being done,
the research being done right here in Minnesota that is
shaping the way we handle mental health, the way we
approach mental health, the treatment. Are you involved in some
of that? Do you know what's going on?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
And it can be specifically for the younger years.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, I mean the pitch to me to move here,
I'm not from here.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, where are you from?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
So I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
I spent a lot of my professional time in Boston, Massachusetts.
And so the pitch for me to come here and
is that not only we're doing that work in here
in Minnesota, but there's many arguments, and I would make
them that we're leading the charge and how we think
about child and adolescent mental health. That's obviously a big
set of questions. In particular, what we really excel here
(05:12):
at the University of Minnesota is in this intersection of
normative brain development. So how does the brain change in
childhood and adolescents actually even starting in infancy. So I
have colleagues that look at brain changes in newborns as well,
and how does the normative brain change and how does
that intersect with things like developmental psychology and child and
(05:33):
adolescent psychiatry In terms of real major efforts that we're
focused on here at the University of Minnesota speak to
my own work in the work we do at the
Masonic Institute for the Developing Brain or MIDB is the
acronym you might hear me slip into. We're really focused
on this idea of personalized medicine or precision medicine, that is,
moving away from a one size fits all treatment approach
(05:56):
to understanding how a treatment approach would work not just
for any teenage, but for a specific teenager, not just
for any person, but you in particular, if you were
someone we were trying to treat. That tends to be
a very complicated space, and it has to do with
the sorts of clinical samples that we look at and
lots of clinical questions, lots of methods questions, meaning how
(06:16):
do we correctly model or mathematically discover these relationships. But
ultimately it's this idea of personalizing medicine that is really
the major focus for us, because we understand that, you know,
there's a lot of individual variability and how people respond
to treatment, how they end up in treatment. I'm also
a licensed psychologist, and so I treat young people in
(06:37):
our department, and no two patients are the same. And
so that's the real main focus for a lot of
our work is and the field generally is moving from
this idea of one size fits all, this treatment works
for everybody, to narrowing in on a single person.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
One of the things and you kind of talked about
how you make it personal. One of the things that
I found as I've been doing this podcast, as I
went to treatment, was there was a separation of mental
health and addictions. And I mean, it doesn't have to
be alcohol. It can be I mean, no, mean, yourself
(07:14):
for trying to use things to distract yourself that are
unhealthy is not uncommon. Whether it could be TV, I mean,
and shopping. There's lots of different things, but the time,
I am so pushing on this podcast the idea that
they go hand in hand, and do you feel.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
That absolutely well, it's an interesting historical kind of perspective
that they often don't go hand in hand and the
way we treat them right, which I would argue is
a major problem, and that has to do with complex
things that are above my pay grade, with health insurance
reimbursement and specialty care and outpatient versus inpatients. But we
know from basically any data that we look at, whether
(07:57):
that's epidemiological data that is surveys of millions of people,
if we look at neuroscience, which is how I spend
most of my time, if we look at psychology, you
can't separate mental health and substance use disorders, and those
two are intrinsically interlinked. And we know that's particularly true
when it comes to early and high risk use in
(08:17):
the teenage years and for young people. And that's a
real focus of my work.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
And what's mind blowing to me is that idea that
we could treat one without the other if we're dealing
with the addiction, and that for me, again would have
never I would have never had success. I don't believe
had it not been.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
What is causing this behavior? A question?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I have no idea if you have the answer to this,
or if there is an answer, But is it how
much of your of mental health issues?
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I don't know you that's okay? Are are just built?
Are you born? Are just built in?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Or like?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Or creating? Do you guys?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Do you know? We don't know. I can't give you
a good number. Just like many great questions, we know
that it's a little bit of both. Right, Most dominant
models and say or theories and their theories because we
don't have definitive answers, are kind of diathesis stress models,
meaning that there's an underlying risk that you're born with,
(09:29):
or there's a nature component, and there's also kind of
an environmental component, and that's not necessarily nurture and just
the way that you interact in your home, but also
things that happen to you along the way, stressors that
come up obviously, you know, changes with your job, changes
with your family, divorces, separations, all those sorts of illnesses.
(09:50):
But we think, and we have evidence from various types
of data, that most psychiatric presentations, including substance use disorders,
have combination of this biological component that is pre kind
of determining some of this risk. But ultimately the presentation
is an intersection between what you came with sort of
(10:10):
biologically and then what happened to you, and that's a
sort of stress diathesis.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Interesting yea, along with many other things. One of one
of the themes I'd like to touch on in this
season of the podcast is that idea of shame, and
I think that prevents us from wanting to.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Tell people speak about the worst of the worst.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
The four episodes I did on here were really opening
up and talking about things that were difficult and that
I didn't want to shed light on necessarily, but we're
part of the story. And also I believe in accountability,
and so with the shame. I have three kids, and
(11:00):
as a parent with mental health and addiction, I mean
I could cry every time because I worry so much
about what my.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Mental health has caused the kids.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
It's been really beautiful with my oldest daughter because we
talk about depression and anxiety and that it's not her
job to make me happy, and that I say that
to the little ones, and that also if I have
a day of depression or if I'm depressed this day.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Your needs are still.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Met, but it's not going to last forever, because I
think kids can feel scared in those moments like oh gosh,
his mom always going to be depressed. But I did
want to talk to you a little bit about the
relationship and maybe you've seen adolescents who've had parents that
(11:58):
do suffer from these things and the bad and the good,
you know, because I think that the way it can
impact them if we're not getting care can be really traumatic.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
And then hopefully if we.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Are not an active addiction and we're getting care, it
can be more productive.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
But I guess what have you seen from the adolescent.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
The children you've spoken to and the impacts it does
have on.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Them, Well, thank you so much for sharing. That takes
a lot of them. Really. I know we just met
and it's a really beautiful thing that you do. You
put out there and just it's you're not alone. You know,
these are conversations I have all the time, right and
and part of that is that we know that anytime
someone lives in a family system, and whether that's a
diad there's two, it's a couple, or if it's a
(12:52):
larger family and it's kids and parents. Part of how
mental health is at least expressed, right, comes out through
relationship and concerns about relationships and how we care for
one another. And if I can, I give you credit
that asking those questions is a really important step, right,
That that shows a lot of reflection, That shows that
(13:12):
you care. That shows to me that you're open to feedback.
And those are all the things that that are. You
can't teach being open to feedback. You can't teach curiosity
about it and a willingness to change. It takes a
long time to do. But you know, one of the
things that's challenging as a provider, particularly for a teenager,
is that teens want to be their own people, right.
(13:32):
I don't need to tell you it sounds like you
have teenagers, and so forcing them to kind of always
have a conversation with their parents and the complexity of
stigma and those sort of things can be challenging. So
what we do is we take a team approach. So
I'm often the therapist for the teenager, and we make
it very clear that you know, I am your therapist.
I'm not your mom's therapists. I don't work for the
(13:53):
school I'm not the police, but we also have sessions
that bring in the family and often in those cases,
I mean, we know there's a huge genetic component to
mental health, right, and so what that means is probabilistically
or across all my practice, all the patients I'll see
a lot of their parents are going to have mental
health ysfunction. This is just how we know that it works,
(14:14):
and so that's just part of what we're working with.
Just like you know, you take a family history for
other conditions medical conditions, taking a family history for mental
health is really important. One piece that maybe wasn't in
your question, but I think is really important to me
as well, is embedded in this is a little bit
of ending social stigma about in particular addiction. And to
(14:37):
go back to your point earlier, I think there's some
historical pieces on particularly the stigma related to addiction and
substance use that leads to some of this treating them separately,
and that's really important to me as an advocate in
this space and something that's really important to me in
therapeutic work. The work we do at the University of
Minnesota is to end that because of course it is
(15:01):
something that we can help with and it's not a
failing of moral character. There's underlying biology to it. It's
a brain based disease, and we have treatments that work.
And so when we're asking those questions like you are,
and when we're working to combat stigma, then we're leading
more people to come in and ask for help. And
the good news is we have a lot of things
that work. You know, not always, and they take time,
(15:22):
but they work.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, they take time.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
That is the one thing I've learned as I've been
diving into the mental health journey is that I can't
fix this overnight.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
It's there.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I remember somebody in treatment saying, one of my psychiatrists saying,
it took you thirty years to get here.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
M come, it might take time.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
To get out of it.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, and so patience is a big thing.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah, and it can be hard to come by.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
It's very yes, yes, especially for somebody.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Anyway, question do you in this You might not have
an answer you want to share, but is there a
reason you got into this field? Was there anything in
your life that impacted you to get into this field?
Speaker 3 (16:11):
It's a great question. I choose not to disclose my
own history because I'm a provider, and I feel like
that's important. But I will say that of course, right,
I mean, I mean, we know that addiction touches so
many lives, and you know, the statistics change, but about
half of all people will have some mental health experience
throughout their life. And so my family is not unique.
(16:31):
My friend group when I was growing up or not unique,
but there's been kind of a I don't know how
to describe it, but you know, some people find what
they they're good at and what they're drawn to do
and what they were meant to do. For you, it
sounds like it's radio and podcasting yours cross friend. Yeah,
that's right. Well both of us. I are pretty young still,
so maybe we've got it. We got to thank you,
(16:51):
We got a career pivot, and as I think, if
we're looking for it, Yeah, you know, I have a
little media training. I know, you know what to say
to be Yeah, but it's just something I was always
drawn to. So I worked, but it's taken many farms.
So I first started, I worked in special ed and
I thought I wanted to be a social worker. And
(17:12):
then someone was doing research in the school that I
was working in and I thought that was just the
coolest thing, and so one thing led to another and
fifteen years later, here I am. But it's always been
particularly about kids and mental health. My mom is also
a child psychologist, and so I think it's a little
bit of it's in the family. Yeah, the apple doesn't
fall too far from the tree. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
So, in all of those years and all of your years.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Of training and work, and now that you're at Masonic,
what do you think is the most shocking advancement that
you guys have made that people would be surprised to
hear because I sorry, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I just got to finish with the.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Medication resistant depression has been a big topic, yes, and
so I know being involved, I mean I'm involved with
the board there that that has been a big topic there.
But are there What do you think is like the
most exciting, most shocking.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Well, obviously my work is the most exciting everybody else obviously,
I think I got that's saying. I do think to
come back to what I said before and what we're
trying to do. I think without you know, science is
hard and it moves slow. There's a lot of patients
that we have to have for science too. Just like
in our own recovery or mental health. But I think
(18:34):
so to rather than just hone in on a specific
result or paper, but a broader theme. I do think
it's this switch from treatment for everybody to treatment for you.
And we're not there yet, but the science and the
research is getting us closer to understanding, for example, the
individual organization of your brain or my brain. And they're
(18:55):
probably different, right, just like we're different people in that require.
And why it's so exciting and why you need a
really big research university to do it is that that
requires influx and input from engineers and psychologists and psychiatrists
and neuroscientists and all working together. And so to me,
the most exciting or the biggest impact is how mental
(19:19):
health has been taken up by universities and by so
many different types of scientists and researchers across the university.
It's the reason I came here to tackle these big
important questions, and we're making really important progress in understanding
the end of one or the individual. And that is
true for both your psychology and the symptoms you present,
(19:40):
but also for your brain function. And that's kind of
a major focus of ours at the Masonic Institute for
the Developing Brain.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
And to follow up on that.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
One of the things I think people listening, I mean,
mental health is a wide range of different things, right,
So I mean you don't have to have a psychotic
break to need help or to want help, and wanting help,
I guess is even more important than needing it. And
so there's this wide range. There's also so many treatments.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
There are I mean tms which you.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Could probably speak more to. I experience that in treatment,
but there are medications of course, but such a variety
of treatments that people can use to tackle this. So
I would just say, like, don't get down or frustrated
if you've tried.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
One or two things.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Again, it's patients. Maybe it's more than just having a therapist.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
To talk to. But I guess like speak to that.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I mean you probably have seen people have to do
a variety of treatments.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Of course, in many of them you have to stick
with for a long time. So you know you alluded to.
We think of most mental health conditions, and particularly addiction,
which is my specialty, is relapsing and remitting conditions. They
come and go, just like many other illnesses that we face.
In our life. But yeah, you know, the treatment journey,
(21:06):
as I talk about it often with with teenagers that
I see in practice, is not a straight one. It's
not a linear path. It's not the shortest path between
two points. It's often winding, and it often depends on
where you're at, and you know where you're at ready
for treatment and where the treatments are at ready for you.
Right some might be coming down the pike and be
(21:27):
only available in Minneapolis, right, And that's talking about stigma.
That's another challenge that we have is that some of
the best treatments are localized to large urban areas, in particular,
large urban areas that have large medical institutions like the
University of Minnesota and our big ten rivals. I guess
for the Midwest listeners, but you know, I think the
(21:47):
biggest piece that I always say, and that's it friends
or family members or you know, people that I work
with that aren't yet hooked up in it with the
provider is just being open and being honest and getting
up with someone that's going to advocate for you. And
that starts often with your PCP. That's fine, your general
practitioner asking for help because a lot of this. I
(22:09):
mean I always joke that we need sometimes with our
insurance system too, which is a whole other issue we're
not talking about, but it's so kind. Yeah, but you
need sort of how to guide on how to navigate
these sorts of things and how to get into specialty care.
But the good news is our general practitioners can do that,
our family doctors can do that, pediatricians can help you
(22:31):
along the way. So it is a lot about patients,
and it's a lot about kind of finding sticking with things,
and but really critically having an advocate for you on
the inside.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
We are just meeting today. I'm just going to call
you doctor Brendan. Term Clemmens is the whole name, but
doctor Brendan to us. So I might be lobbing questions
at you that you that aren't for you, but for
any parents listening warning signs or things that they could
(23:00):
look for. You mentioned, you know, you specialize an addiction,
and so things that you could look for, because my
parents are amazing parents. They were incredible, they are incredible,
but they had no idea. I mean I was, I
was really good at hiding everything, and people with addictions
(23:22):
typically are. So I'm just wondering if there's anything you
can advise for parents when they may think their child
is changing, or they might think there might be addiction there.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Or how to get ahead of it.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Even yeah, well it's it's it's I'm not going to
sit here and say here are five tips that ye know,
thealistical version about us solve this.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
There is no I mean for every kid, right, they're.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Different crisis, I think, and you alluded to it in
kind of in multiple ways just to double down on
what I've said too, is is just talking about it.
There's there's an honesty in which if we invite a conversation,
it's more likely to happen. It doesn't mean it will happen, right,
And plenty of particularly teenagers, can keep to themselves. But
we know for sure it won't happen if we're not asking,
(24:11):
right and if we're not available. The other thing that
often happens clinically is reminding people to the best they
can and the best that the law, their own religious beliefs,
their own cultural beliefs will allow to approach it with
a non judgmental attitude and more about support and treatment
and help rather than judge, shame and blame. Those are
(24:32):
kind of the big things. I think. The other the
other piece in terms of you asked of kind of
how do we know that it's a problem or what's
the risk? Is going back to that piece of its
entwinement with mental health is there's use. We also know
that most teenagers will use it sometime in high school.
Right there. These are not rare occurrences. And I also
(24:55):
don't have a listical to give you on what differentiates
normal use versus you know, or sort of more.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I had plenty of friends who dreams have an addiction.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, I would we would be talking about me winning
a Nobel Prize if I had that answer.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I mean, maybe maybe something good happen.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Yeah, I did just get here to Minnesota, so I
got the guts some time. Yeah. But I think one
of the things that we see, or I think one
piece for your listeners, one of the things that we
see is when when use becomes intertwined in mental health.
So what does that mean? That means when we're using
to change our mood, when we're not using, when it's
(25:33):
with friends or once in a while, but we're using
because we're sad that day or we're mad that day,
and those are the first signs that use is taking
on a different function. It's not just about having funds
with friends, having fun with friends, or going against our
parents and their their wishes for us, which many of
us have done, but more so about it's being sort
(25:55):
of intertwined in how our psyche is functioning. And that
can be concerning. Now, plenty of people do that. You know,
the model and media of someone that's stressed out that
pours themselves scotch is about as old as time, or
you know, smoking. Thankfully, far a few people are smoking cigarettes.
There's still some of that. But but I think those
are the first warning signs that we typically see is
(26:17):
the mood.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah, you're doing it to change to cope, right, that's right.
Kind of in that same.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Vein what are the biggest concerns you're scene from adolescents
and children that are that you are you know, advising
or seeing Obviously.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Not specifically, you can't necessarily say that, but obviously phones
are more you know, the challenges.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Are different from when I was growing huh, And so
what are the biggest challenges you're seeing for kids related
to mental health?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
You know, in some ways it's it's such a overwhelming
problem that it's it's hard to pick the first thing
to start with. But I I will say that, you know,
even in the time that I've been doing this, which is,
you know, depending on how you count it, at least
over ten years, if not closer to fifteen, that I've
been working with young people. Certainly, the Internet and cell
(27:12):
phones and smartphones and their constant connection with people has
changed the way that we understand our mental health. There's
a big debate about whether it makes it worse, and
those sorts of things which we don't have enough data
to really weigh in on. But I do think that
the concerns that adolescents have there's some perennial repeat kind
of stall warts of across generations. There's social comparisons. How
(27:36):
do I compare to my friends? How do I figure
out dating? How do I figure out autonomy? From my parents?
Who am I compared to my siblings? Those are still there.
They haven't gone away. Psychologists have been talking about that,
those things for over one hundred years. They do, however,
take on new manifestations, often of well, this like or
(27:56):
this post and Instagram didn't get liked by my friend
or ticked didn't get retweeted, and that means that, but
I think there's also a lot of shared components. The
other thing I will say, and to give the younger
generations a shout out, is there's a lot more we see,
you know, working with young people, we see a lot
(28:17):
more positive sense of their own identity and that is
a really powerful perspective, and I think there's a lot
more tolerance and sort of understanding of who they are
in the world and however that manifests for them. I
think one of the challenges can be that that's not
always Our culture isn't set up to allow for that,
and neither or all the teenagers around, and so we
(28:40):
see many more issues with LGBTQ plus teenagers coming in
and the good news is that they're coming in for treatment.
The bad news is that some of the ways in
which our culture still orientces are not always as supportive
as they could be.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
When you said it made me think of my fifteen
year old. Her sense of identity.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
She knows her know, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Much more than I ever did at that age, and
it's wild and her confidence within it as well is
really really cool.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Yeah, it's it's inspiring, it's heartwarming, you know. I think
you can see the one of the great things of
working with young people is you can see the progression
of our society over time, right, And I like you,
I don't. I would never say I'm the type of
person who rank as a high schooler. But I hear
people say that all the time. Young people say that
all the time.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Now, yeah, she's always like, this is my style. I'm like,
I don't even know my style.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
What brings you the most joy from the work that
you do?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I think working with young people clinically, you know, the
research that we do is slow, and it takes years
and years and years to make the smallest progress. But well,
I guess two answers to that. One is clinically every
day working with young people I'm in my clinical practice.
I don't do a lot because they spend more time
(30:02):
doing research, but it fills up the cup, as they say,
and kind of the spirit way. The other is working
with young people on research, so students and trainees that
are just as eager to make an impact haven't been
as jaded and beat down by the scientific establishment and careerism.
(30:24):
But yeah, those two things and That's part of the
reason that I'm so excited to work at a university.
You know, there's plenty of different places you can do
science and clinical work, but universities are kind of unique
in their alignment to the teaching mission.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
As we wrap up, I was just going to mention
we talked a little bit off air about a place
called m Path, and I like to bring it up
as much as possible, even if it annoys people if
I'm bringing it up too much. Mpath was the first
place I went to in crisis. So, you know, people
(31:01):
a lot of times I get messages saying I don't
know what to do?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
What do I do to get help?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
And it's it can take time to get into a therapist,
into a psychology I mean, it takes time to get medication.
And so in a crisis situation, something that the university
is set up at Fairview Seuthdale's a place called MPATH
and it's different because emergency rooms are great, but they're
(31:27):
not necessarily equipped for mental health.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Crisis right up sitting for a very very long time, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And they and they're going to make sure that you're
okay enough to go.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Home safe, but not necessarily well right.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Right, And so what is great about EmPATH is you
can go there. You go through the emergency room at
Fairview south Dale and they will take you anytime twenty
four to seven. They will take you in and help
you kind of bridge the gap between that and maybe
you need to go somewhere, maybe you need outpatient. It
(32:04):
doesn't have to mean you're going to treatment. They're not
going to lock you in. But I always want to
stress that as an option because I think if you're
in a crisis again that we need options, like absolutely,
and they're just not out there.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Yeah, it's really hard and needed to go back to
what I was saying. I mean, imagine being one hundred
and fifty miles from a university city. You know, these
are the issues that we need to as a community
that wants to care about mental health, advocate for too,
and keeping hotlines open for young people. But yeah, that's
(32:42):
that's that's great. And I'm still new to the university.
So you're giving some more yeah, giving me some more information,
that's right, that's right. But certainly the other thing that's
important for any listener to know too is that if
you don't have this wonderful resource, you can just go
to an emergency room and you will be seen and
you will get help, and it can be long, but
it's important for us all to know and to hold
(33:04):
each other in various ways energetically to get care if
we need it, particularly when we're feeling like we can't
keep ourselves safe in those things.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
And I think our conversation said it perfectly, trying to
remove that stigma.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
We say that a lot, but genuinely doing it in
a way of sharing the good and bad.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
You know, it's not everything's good, not everything's bad, and
so being open to share and understanding that you don't
have to be perfect for your kids, for your partner,
for anybody. You just have to be yourself.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
And it could be really it could look really ugly,
and that's happened to me.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
I've been in those dark spaces, but I've been very
fortunate to be surrounded by people who have looked at
me and said, but I know who you are, and
we're going to get to the other side of it.
And so I just would encourage everybody listening.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
You said it beautifully. Let's just keep talking about it.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Talk to your kids, make it a conversation, and is
there anything else that we missed today that you wanted
to talk about.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
I think it would just just to add to that
one thing that comes to mind when we teach and
when I talk to people that work in my lab students.
I think of empathy and ending stigma as a language
that we speak, and we don't have it or not
have it. We work on it our whole lives, and
just like a new language, it'll change the way we think.
(34:36):
And so I love what you said that it's a
journey that we're all on and we have to stick
with it. So I think that's a wonderful last message.
So I'm gonna double down what.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
You give everyone some grace out there, Be kind to yourself,
be kind everyone around you.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
As everybody says, you're going everyone's going.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Through something that's right.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Well, doctor Brendan, I appreciate you taking the time to
be with us. Thank you to Brett Blake Moore for
producing the show. As always, it's our first episode back
of Here we Go season two, and we'll see you
next time.
Welcome to season two of Here We Go. This is
Carly Zucker.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I could not believe the response that we got from
season one. Every episode I was receiving DMS emails from
people who felt like they learned something, who felt like
they could relate, who felt like their stories or they
(00:25):
were finally being heard. And I just I cherish that,
and it makes sharing some deeply personal things worthwhile absolutely,
And so we decided Meana Brett Blake Moore over there,
my producer, Hi are.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You he's back. I convinced him to do season two
with me.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
But yeah, we're just so grateful for everyone who's listened,
who shared it with other people, family, and please continue
to do so, because the more we get people to listen,
the bigger reach we have.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
And so we are kicking off.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
This season with a professional We're going we're gonna go
hardcore right from the beginning. But again, so glad to
have everybody back and we have with us today. Brendan
Turvo Clemens, right, am I saying that?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's a mouthful, but yeah, you're a PhD. So it's right,
Doctor Turvo Clement.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
My mom would be it would be important for her
that you called me doctor, but yes, my friends just
call me Brendan. We can stick with Brendan.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Can we just be like doctor TD. Do you have
a nickname?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Well, the kids that I see when I when I'm
doing clinical work, they often call me doctor Brendan because
my last name is hyphenated and it's kind of a mouthful.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, but I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
And you're the assistant Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences
and this is.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
At the University of Minnesota.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Absolutely so. My academic title is Assistant Professor in Psychiatry
and Behavioral Science. Is here at the University of Minnesota.
Go Golden grow first. I'm still relatively new, but I'm learning.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I'm more Huskies, but that's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
We won't let it interfere with this relationship.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yeah. Well, I moved in the East Coast. I'm still
new to these Big ten rivalries and sports rivalries. I'm
in general, but partly probably what was on your sheet
and kind of part of what I do is I
also work at the Masonic Institute for the Developing Brain,
which is a multidisciplinary, relatively new effort from the university
(02:37):
that pulls people from multiple different departments. So psychiatry like myself,
people that are focused on mental health, pediatrics, people that
are more focused generally in child development, as well as
a host of people from neuroscience and psychology. And the
goal is that we're all focused on what we define
as brain health, which is mental health and more generally
(02:58):
cognitive development and healthy development. So we all the university
kind of rounded us all up and put us into
one place to kind of solve these big pressing issues
for child and adolescent mental health. And my work is
particularly in the space of adolescence. So I'm interested in
the teenage years, the second decade of life, and in
(03:18):
particular sort of the emergence of psychiatric and substance use
disorders and in particular how those are intertwined often.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
That's really interesting. Okay, So I don't know if you
know anything about my background. I was going to give
you a tiny bit because some of that is going
to shape some of the questions that.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I ask you.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So, I grew up with some childhood trauma. Some in
my adolescent young adult years, I struggled with drinking right
out of the gate. I mean, by thirteen, I was
blackout drinking. So sorry to hear I'm sober two.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
And a half years, So there we go.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Also mental health diagnoses. You know, it's been I went
to a trauma therapy center and we have basically for
eighty days. It was very beneficial for me. So that's
going to shape some of the questions that I ask you.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Sure. One of them right out of the gate is
what are some of the things we are doing.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
What I'm so fascinated with is the work being done,
the research being done right here in Minnesota that is
shaping the way we handle mental health, the way we
approach mental health, the treatment. Are you involved in some
of that? Do you know what's going on?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
And it can be specifically for the younger years.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, I mean the pitch to me to move here,
I'm not from here.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, where are you from?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
So I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
I spent a lot of my professional time in Boston, Massachusetts.
And so the pitch for me to come here and
is that not only we're doing that work in here
in Minnesota, but there's many arguments, and I would make
them that we're leading the charge and how we think
about child and adolescent mental health. That's obviously a big
set of questions. In particular, what we really excel here
(05:12):
at the University of Minnesota is in this intersection of
normative brain development. So how does the brain change in
childhood and adolescents actually even starting in infancy. So I
have colleagues that look at brain changes in newborns as well,
and how does the normative brain change and how does
that intersect with things like developmental psychology and child and
(05:33):
adolescent psychiatry In terms of real major efforts that we're
focused on here at the University of Minnesota speak to
my own work in the work we do at the
Masonic Institute for the Developing Brain or MIDB is the
acronym you might hear me slip into. We're really focused
on this idea of personalized medicine or precision medicine, that is,
moving away from a one size fits all treatment approach
(05:56):
to understanding how a treatment approach would work not just
for any teenage, but for a specific teenager, not just
for any person, but you in particular, if you were
someone we were trying to treat. That tends to be
a very complicated space, and it has to do with
the sorts of clinical samples that we look at and
lots of clinical questions, lots of methods questions, meaning how
(06:16):
do we correctly model or mathematically discover these relationships. But
ultimately it's this idea of personalizing medicine that is really
the major focus for us, because we understand that, you know,
there's a lot of individual variability and how people respond
to treatment, how they end up in treatment. I'm also
a licensed psychologist, and so I treat young people in
(06:37):
our department, and no two patients are the same. And
so that's the real main focus for a lot of
our work is and the field generally is moving from
this idea of one size fits all, this treatment works
for everybody, to narrowing in on a single person.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
One of the things and you kind of talked about
how you make it personal. One of the things that
I found as I've been doing this podcast, as I
went to treatment, was there was a separation of mental
health and addictions. And I mean, it doesn't have to
be alcohol. It can be I mean, no, mean, yourself
(07:14):
for trying to use things to distract yourself that are
unhealthy is not uncommon. Whether it could be TV, I mean,
and shopping. There's lots of different things, but the time,
I am so pushing on this podcast the idea that
they go hand in hand, and do you feel.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
That absolutely well, it's an interesting historical kind of perspective
that they often don't go hand in hand and the
way we treat them right, which I would argue is
a major problem, and that has to do with complex
things that are above my pay grade, with health insurance
reimbursement and specialty care and outpatient versus inpatients. But we
know from basically any data that we look at, whether
(07:57):
that's epidemiological data that is surveys of millions of people,
if we look at neuroscience, which is how I spend
most of my time, if we look at psychology, you
can't separate mental health and substance use disorders, and those
two are intrinsically interlinked. And we know that's particularly true
when it comes to early and high risk use in
(08:17):
the teenage years and for young people. And that's a
real focus of my work.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
And what's mind blowing to me is that idea that
we could treat one without the other if we're dealing
with the addiction, and that for me, again would have
never I would have never had success. I don't believe
had it not been.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
What is causing this behavior? A question?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I have no idea if you have the answer to this,
or if there is an answer, But is it how
much of your of mental health issues?
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I don't know you that's okay? Are are just built?
Are you born? Are just built in?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Or like?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Or creating? Do you guys?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Do you know? We don't know. I can't give you
a good number. Just like many great questions, we know
that it's a little bit of both. Right, Most dominant
models and say or theories and their theories because we
don't have definitive answers, are kind of diathesis stress models,
meaning that there's an underlying risk that you're born with,
(09:29):
or there's a nature component, and there's also kind of
an environmental component, and that's not necessarily nurture and just
the way that you interact in your home, but also
things that happen to you along the way, stressors that
come up obviously, you know, changes with your job, changes
with your family, divorces, separations, all those sorts of illnesses.
(09:50):
But we think, and we have evidence from various types
of data, that most psychiatric presentations, including substance use disorders,
have combination of this biological component that is pre kind
of determining some of this risk. But ultimately the presentation
is an intersection between what you came with sort of
(10:10):
biologically and then what happened to you, and that's a
sort of stress diathesis.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Interesting yea, along with many other things. One of one
of the themes I'd like to touch on in this
season of the podcast is that idea of shame, and
I think that prevents us from wanting to.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Tell people speak about the worst of the worst.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
The four episodes I did on here were really opening
up and talking about things that were difficult and that
I didn't want to shed light on necessarily, but we're
part of the story. And also I believe in accountability,
and so with the shame. I have three kids, and
(11:00):
as a parent with mental health and addiction, I mean
I could cry every time because I worry so much
about what my.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Mental health has caused the kids.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
It's been really beautiful with my oldest daughter because we
talk about depression and anxiety and that it's not her
job to make me happy, and that I say that
to the little ones, and that also if I have
a day of depression or if I'm depressed this day.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Your needs are still.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Met, but it's not going to last forever, because I
think kids can feel scared in those moments like oh gosh,
his mom always going to be depressed. But I did
want to talk to you a little bit about the
relationship and maybe you've seen adolescents who've had parents that
(11:58):
do suffer from these things and the bad and the good,
you know, because I think that the way it can
impact them if we're not getting care can be really traumatic.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
And then hopefully if we.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Are not an active addiction and we're getting care, it
can be more productive.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
But I guess what have you seen from the adolescent.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
The children you've spoken to and the impacts it does
have on.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Them, Well, thank you so much for sharing. That takes
a lot of them. Really. I know we just met
and it's a really beautiful thing that you do. You
put out there and just it's you're not alone. You know,
these are conversations I have all the time, right and
and part of that is that we know that anytime
someone lives in a family system, and whether that's a
diad there's two, it's a couple, or if it's a
(12:52):
larger family and it's kids and parents. Part of how
mental health is at least expressed, right, comes out through
relationship and concerns about relationships and how we care for
one another. And if I can, I give you credit
that asking those questions is a really important step, right,
That that shows a lot of reflection, That shows that
(13:12):
you care. That shows to me that you're open to feedback.
And those are all the things that that are. You
can't teach being open to feedback. You can't teach curiosity
about it and a willingness to change. It takes a
long time to do. But you know, one of the
things that's challenging as a provider, particularly for a teenager,
is that teens want to be their own people, right.
(13:32):
I don't need to tell you it sounds like you
have teenagers, and so forcing them to kind of always
have a conversation with their parents and the complexity of
stigma and those sort of things can be challenging. So
what we do is we take a team approach. So
I'm often the therapist for the teenager, and we make
it very clear that you know, I am your therapist.
I'm not your mom's therapists. I don't work for the
(13:53):
school I'm not the police, but we also have sessions
that bring in the family and often in those cases,
I mean, we know there's a huge genetic component to
mental health, right, and so what that means is probabilistically
or across all my practice, all the patients I'll see
a lot of their parents are going to have mental
health ysfunction. This is just how we know that it works,
(14:14):
and so that's just part of what we're working with.
Just like you know, you take a family history for
other conditions medical conditions, taking a family history for mental
health is really important. One piece that maybe wasn't in
your question, but I think is really important to me
as well, is embedded in this is a little bit
of ending social stigma about in particular addiction. And to
(14:37):
go back to your point earlier, I think there's some
historical pieces on particularly the stigma related to addiction and
substance use that leads to some of this treating them separately,
and that's really important to me as an advocate in
this space and something that's really important to me in
therapeutic work. The work we do at the University of
Minnesota is to end that because of course it is
(15:01):
something that we can help with and it's not a
failing of moral character. There's underlying biology to it. It's
a brain based disease, and we have treatments that work.
And so when we're asking those questions like you are,
and when we're working to combat stigma, then we're leading
more people to come in and ask for help. And
the good news is we have a lot of things
that work. You know, not always, and they take time,
(15:22):
but they work.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, they take time.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
That is the one thing I've learned as I've been
diving into the mental health journey is that I can't
fix this overnight.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
It's there.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I remember somebody in treatment saying, one of my psychiatrists saying,
it took you thirty years to get here.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
M come, it might take time.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
To get out of it.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, and so patience is a big thing.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah, and it can be hard to come by.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
It's very yes, yes, especially for somebody.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Anyway, question do you in this You might not have
an answer you want to share, but is there a
reason you got into this field? Was there anything in
your life that impacted you to get into this field?
Speaker 3 (16:11):
It's a great question. I choose not to disclose my
own history because I'm a provider, and I feel like
that's important. But I will say that of course, right,
I mean, I mean, we know that addiction touches so
many lives, and you know, the statistics change, but about
half of all people will have some mental health experience
throughout their life. And so my family is not unique.
(16:31):
My friend group when I was growing up or not unique,
but there's been kind of a I don't know how
to describe it, but you know, some people find what
they they're good at and what they're drawn to do
and what they were meant to do. For you, it
sounds like it's radio and podcasting yours cross friend. Yeah,
that's right. Well both of us. I are pretty young still,
so maybe we've got it. We got to thank you,
(16:51):
We got a career pivot, and as I think, if
we're looking for it, Yeah, you know, I have a
little media training. I know, you know what to say
to be Yeah, but it's just something I was always
drawn to. So I worked, but it's taken many farms.
So I first started, I worked in special ed and
I thought I wanted to be a social worker. And
(17:12):
then someone was doing research in the school that I
was working in and I thought that was just the
coolest thing, and so one thing led to another and
fifteen years later, here I am. But it's always been
particularly about kids and mental health. My mom is also
a child psychologist, and so I think it's a little
bit of it's in the family. Yeah, the apple doesn't
fall too far from the tree. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
So, in all of those years and all of your years.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Of training and work, and now that you're at Masonic,
what do you think is the most shocking advancement that
you guys have made that people would be surprised to
hear because I sorry, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I just got to finish with the.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Medication resistant depression has been a big topic, yes, and
so I know being involved, I mean I'm involved with
the board there that that has been a big topic there.
But are there What do you think is like the
most exciting, most shocking.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Well, obviously my work is the most exciting everybody else obviously,
I think I got that's saying. I do think to
come back to what I said before and what we're
trying to do. I think without you know, science is
hard and it moves slow. There's a lot of patients
that we have to have for science too. Just like
in our own recovery or mental health. But I think
(18:34):
so to rather than just hone in on a specific
result or paper, but a broader theme. I do think
it's this switch from treatment for everybody to treatment for you.
And we're not there yet, but the science and the
research is getting us closer to understanding, for example, the
individual organization of your brain or my brain. And they're
(18:55):
probably different, right, just like we're different people in that require.
And why it's so exciting and why you need a
really big research university to do it is that that
requires influx and input from engineers and psychologists and psychiatrists
and neuroscientists and all working together. And so to me,
the most exciting or the biggest impact is how mental
(19:19):
health has been taken up by universities and by so
many different types of scientists and researchers across the university.
It's the reason I came here to tackle these big
important questions, and we're making really important progress in understanding
the end of one or the individual. And that is
true for both your psychology and the symptoms you present,
(19:40):
but also for your brain function. And that's kind of
a major focus of ours at the Masonic Institute for
the Developing Brain.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
And to follow up on that.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
One of the things I think people listening, I mean,
mental health is a wide range of different things, right,
So I mean you don't have to have a psychotic
break to need help or to want help, and wanting help,
I guess is even more important than needing it. And
so there's this wide range. There's also so many treatments.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
There are I mean tms which you.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Could probably speak more to. I experience that in treatment,
but there are medications of course, but such a variety
of treatments that people can use to tackle this. So
I would just say, like, don't get down or frustrated
if you've tried.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
One or two things.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Again, it's patients. Maybe it's more than just having a therapist.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
To talk to. But I guess like speak to that.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I mean you probably have seen people have to do
a variety of treatments.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Of course, in many of them you have to stick
with for a long time. So you know you alluded to.
We think of most mental health conditions, and particularly addiction,
which is my specialty, is relapsing and remitting conditions. They
come and go, just like many other illnesses that we face.
In our life. But yeah, you know, the treatment journey,
(21:06):
as I talk about it often with with teenagers that
I see in practice, is not a straight one. It's
not a linear path. It's not the shortest path between
two points. It's often winding, and it often depends on
where you're at, and you know where you're at ready
for treatment and where the treatments are at ready for you.
Right some might be coming down the pike and be
(21:27):
only available in Minneapolis, right, And that's talking about stigma.
That's another challenge that we have is that some of
the best treatments are localized to large urban areas, in particular,
large urban areas that have large medical institutions like the
University of Minnesota and our big ten rivals. I guess
for the Midwest listeners, but you know, I think the
(21:47):
biggest piece that I always say, and that's it friends
or family members or you know, people that I work
with that aren't yet hooked up in it with the
provider is just being open and being honest and getting
up with someone that's going to advocate for you. And
that starts often with your PCP. That's fine, your general
practitioner asking for help because a lot of this. I
(22:09):
mean I always joke that we need sometimes with our
insurance system too, which is a whole other issue we're
not talking about, but it's so kind. Yeah, but you
need sort of how to guide on how to navigate
these sorts of things and how to get into specialty care.
But the good news is our general practitioners can do that,
our family doctors can do that, pediatricians can help you
(22:31):
along the way. So it is a lot about patients,
and it's a lot about kind of finding sticking with things,
and but really critically having an advocate for you on
the inside.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
We are just meeting today. I'm just going to call
you doctor Brendan. Term Clemmens is the whole name, but
doctor Brendan to us. So I might be lobbing questions
at you that you that aren't for you, but for
any parents listening warning signs or things that they could
(23:00):
look for. You mentioned, you know, you specialize an addiction,
and so things that you could look for, because my
parents are amazing parents. They were incredible, they are incredible,
but they had no idea. I mean I was, I
was really good at hiding everything, and people with addictions
(23:22):
typically are. So I'm just wondering if there's anything you
can advise for parents when they may think their child
is changing, or they might think there might be addiction there.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Or how to get ahead of it.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Even yeah, well it's it's it's I'm not going to
sit here and say here are five tips that ye know,
thealistical version about us solve this.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
There is no I mean for every kid, right, they're.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Different crisis, I think, and you alluded to it in
kind of in multiple ways just to double down on
what I've said too, is is just talking about it.
There's there's an honesty in which if we invite a conversation,
it's more likely to happen. It doesn't mean it will happen, right,
And plenty of particularly teenagers, can keep to themselves. But
we know for sure it won't happen if we're not asking,
(24:11):
right and if we're not available. The other thing that
often happens clinically is reminding people to the best they
can and the best that the law, their own religious beliefs,
their own cultural beliefs will allow to approach it with
a non judgmental attitude and more about support and treatment
and help rather than judge, shame and blame. Those are
(24:32):
kind of the big things. I think. The other the
other piece in terms of you asked of kind of
how do we know that it's a problem or what's
the risk? Is going back to that piece of its
entwinement with mental health is there's use. We also know
that most teenagers will use it sometime in high school.
Right there. These are not rare occurrences. And I also
(24:55):
don't have a listical to give you on what differentiates
normal use versus you know, or sort of more.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I had plenty of friends who dreams have an addiction.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, I would we would be talking about me winning
a Nobel Prize if I had that answer.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I mean, maybe maybe something good happen.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Yeah, I did just get here to Minnesota, so I
got the guts some time. Yeah. But I think one
of the things that we see, or I think one
piece for your listeners, one of the things that we
see is when when use becomes intertwined in mental health.
So what does that mean? That means when we're using
to change our mood, when we're not using, when it's
(25:33):
with friends or once in a while, but we're using
because we're sad that day or we're mad that day,
and those are the first signs that use is taking
on a different function. It's not just about having funds
with friends, having fun with friends, or going against our
parents and their their wishes for us, which many of
us have done, but more so about it's being sort
(25:55):
of intertwined in how our psyche is functioning. And that
can be concerning. Now, plenty of people do that. You know,
the model and media of someone that's stressed out that
pours themselves scotch is about as old as time, or
you know, smoking. Thankfully, far a few people are smoking cigarettes.
There's still some of that. But but I think those
are the first warning signs that we typically see is
(26:17):
the mood.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah, you're doing it to change to cope, right, that's right.
Kind of in that same.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Vein what are the biggest concerns you're scene from adolescents
and children that are that you are you know, advising
or seeing Obviously.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Not specifically, you can't necessarily say that, but obviously phones
are more you know, the challenges.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Are different from when I was growing huh, And so
what are the biggest challenges you're seeing for kids related
to mental health?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
You know, in some ways it's it's such a overwhelming
problem that it's it's hard to pick the first thing
to start with. But I I will say that, you know,
even in the time that I've been doing this, which is,
you know, depending on how you count it, at least
over ten years, if not closer to fifteen, that I've
been working with young people. Certainly, the Internet and cell
(27:12):
phones and smartphones and their constant connection with people has
changed the way that we understand our mental health. There's
a big debate about whether it makes it worse, and
those sorts of things which we don't have enough data
to really weigh in on. But I do think that
the concerns that adolescents have there's some perennial repeat kind
of stall warts of across generations. There's social comparisons. How
(27:36):
do I compare to my friends? How do I figure
out dating? How do I figure out autonomy? From my parents?
Who am I compared to my siblings? Those are still there.
They haven't gone away. Psychologists have been talking about that,
those things for over one hundred years. They do, however,
take on new manifestations, often of well, this like or
(27:56):
this post and Instagram didn't get liked by my friend
or ticked didn't get retweeted, and that means that, but
I think there's also a lot of shared components. The
other thing I will say, and to give the younger
generations a shout out, is there's a lot more we see,
you know, working with young people, we see a lot
(28:17):
more positive sense of their own identity and that is
a really powerful perspective, and I think there's a lot
more tolerance and sort of understanding of who they are
in the world and however that manifests for them. I
think one of the challenges can be that that's not
always Our culture isn't set up to allow for that,
and neither or all the teenagers around, and so we
(28:40):
see many more issues with LGBTQ plus teenagers coming in
and the good news is that they're coming in for treatment.
The bad news is that some of the ways in
which our culture still orientces are not always as supportive
as they could be.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
When you said it made me think of my fifteen
year old. Her sense of identity.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
She knows her know, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Much more than I ever did at that age, and
it's wild and her confidence within it as well is
really really cool.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Yeah, it's it's inspiring, it's heartwarming, you know. I think
you can see the one of the great things of
working with young people is you can see the progression
of our society over time, right, And I like you,
I don't. I would never say I'm the type of
person who rank as a high schooler. But I hear
people say that all the time. Young people say that
all the time.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Now, yeah, she's always like, this is my style. I'm like,
I don't even know my style.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
What brings you the most joy from the work that
you do?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I think working with young people clinically, you know, the
research that we do is slow, and it takes years
and years and years to make the smallest progress. But well,
I guess two answers to that. One is clinically every
day working with young people I'm in my clinical practice.
I don't do a lot because they spend more time
(30:02):
doing research, but it fills up the cup, as they say,
and kind of the spirit way. The other is working
with young people on research, so students and trainees that
are just as eager to make an impact haven't been
as jaded and beat down by the scientific establishment and careerism.
(30:24):
But yeah, those two things and That's part of the
reason that I'm so excited to work at a university.
You know, there's plenty of different places you can do
science and clinical work, but universities are kind of unique
in their alignment to the teaching mission.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
As we wrap up, I was just going to mention
we talked a little bit off air about a place
called m Path, and I like to bring it up
as much as possible, even if it annoys people if
I'm bringing it up too much. Mpath was the first
place I went to in crisis. So, you know, people
(31:01):
a lot of times I get messages saying I don't
know what to do?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
What do I do to get help?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
And it's it can take time to get into a therapist,
into a psychology I mean, it takes time to get medication.
And so in a crisis situation, something that the university
is set up at Fairview Seuthdale's a place called MPATH
and it's different because emergency rooms are great, but they're
(31:27):
not necessarily equipped for mental health.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Crisis right up sitting for a very very long time, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And they and they're going to make sure that you're
okay enough to go.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Home safe, but not necessarily well right.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Right, And so what is great about EmPATH is you
can go there. You go through the emergency room at
Fairview south Dale and they will take you anytime twenty
four to seven. They will take you in and help
you kind of bridge the gap between that and maybe
you need to go somewhere, maybe you need outpatient. It
(32:04):
doesn't have to mean you're going to treatment. They're not
going to lock you in. But I always want to
stress that as an option because I think if you're
in a crisis again that we need options, like absolutely,
and they're just not out there.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Yeah, it's really hard and needed to go back to
what I was saying. I mean, imagine being one hundred
and fifty miles from a university city. You know, these
are the issues that we need to as a community
that wants to care about mental health, advocate for too,
and keeping hotlines open for young people. But yeah, that's
(32:42):
that's that's great. And I'm still new to the university.
So you're giving some more yeah, giving me some more information,
that's right, that's right. But certainly the other thing that's
important for any listener to know too is that if
you don't have this wonderful resource, you can just go
to an emergency room and you will be seen and
you will get help, and it can be long, but
it's important for us all to know and to hold
(33:04):
each other in various ways energetically to get care if
we need it, particularly when we're feeling like we can't
keep ourselves safe in those things.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
And I think our conversation said it perfectly, trying to
remove that stigma.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
We say that a lot, but genuinely doing it in
a way of sharing the good and bad.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
You know, it's not everything's good, not everything's bad, and
so being open to share and understanding that you don't
have to be perfect for your kids, for your partner,
for anybody. You just have to be yourself.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
And it could be really it could look really ugly,
and that's happened to me.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
I've been in those dark spaces, but I've been very
fortunate to be surrounded by people who have looked at
me and said, but I know who you are, and
we're going to get to the other side of it.
And so I just would encourage everybody listening.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
You said it beautifully. Let's just keep talking about it.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Talk to your kids, make it a conversation, and is
there anything else that we missed today that you wanted
to talk about.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
I think it would just just to add to that
one thing that comes to mind when we teach and
when I talk to people that work in my lab students.
I think of empathy and ending stigma as a language
that we speak, and we don't have it or not
have it. We work on it our whole lives, and
just like a new language, it'll change the way we think.
(34:36):
And so I love what you said that it's a
journey that we're all on and we have to stick
with it. So I think that's a wonderful last message.
So I'm gonna double down what.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
You give everyone some grace out there, Be kind to yourself,
be kind everyone around you.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
As everybody says, you're going everyone's going.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Through something that's right.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Well, doctor Brendan, I appreciate you taking the time to
be with us. Thank you to Brett Blake Moore for
producing the show. As always, it's our first episode back
of Here we Go season two, and we'll see you
next time.
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