October 17, 2024 • 38 mins
A real open conversation about being the support person to someone with mental health and/or substance issues and what YOU can do to take care of yourself and help those you love!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wama wama wama.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
First off, a huge thank you to everyone who has
listened to the first four episodes of Here We Go
podcast with Carlie Zucker. I'm Carlie Zucker and it has
been heavy topics and you know we will continue to
talk about a lot of things that are emotional and
stressful for all of us going through so much at
this time. Joining me on Here we Go today is
(00:28):
my sister Katie's Harah.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
I was gonna say it the same last.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Name, which is not true, Kate had it for so
long and Katie Heronsky also known as Katie Applin, and
so we are the closest of the close. If you
see our social media, we are always together and she
has been my greatest support system through the depression, the anxiety,
(00:51):
the substance use, going to treatment, with the kids, everything,
And I can't stress enough how much supports this are
important during these times because you can't do it alone.
You just can't. And I needed the professional help of treatment,
which I talk about in the first four episodes. But
then when you get home, what does that look like
(01:12):
or when you don't go to treatment, what does that
look like? And who is your support and so wanted
to talk today with my sister because we think a
lot about the people going through it, you know, the
people with the addiction, of the people with the mental
health issues.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And you know, we feel for them.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
But when you are the other person in the story,
when you're the support person, that is also unbelievably difficult,
and what does that look like for them? So maybe
if you can't relate to me, maybe you can relate
to my sister. So I wanted to have Katie to
come in and talk about what things that she's gone
through with me, what's gone through her head, what she's done,
(01:50):
what has worked for her, and the health of herself
and making sure she takes care of herself. So, hey, hey, hey,
I first want to talk about we'll get into like
the details details, but overall the feelings of being a
support person to somebody with mental health, addiction, any of it,
(02:11):
all of it. What has been like it for you,
especially in the last two years where it's been really difficult.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Well, first, thank you so much for having me. I
guess sitting here and really watching you tell your story
through the first four episodes is incredibly inspiring and has
been for lack of a better term fun for me
to see you do because I feel like you're taking
control over your story and it's it's just really been amazing.
(02:44):
And so I couldn't be more proud of you to
like watch you share this because I'm.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Already getting tears.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
I'm not crying, but just watching you share this, I
truly can't. You're going to reach so many people, and
I'm so incredibly proud of you for that. So I
just wanted to quickly share that. But as far as
kind of what it feels like is really overwhelming to
(03:12):
be honest, like you, I don't ever know, you know
if you're doing the right thing, if you're saying the
right thing. Plus for me personally, I'm such a fixer.
Like if somebody comes to me and is like, Okay,
I have this problem, I'm like, Okay, well what are
we going to do to fix it? Like I have
(03:33):
a really hard time stepping back and trying to even
understand where they're coming from first. And so that was
like a huge learning piece for me.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Realizing you can't fix this. I can't fix it.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
I can't fix it, I can't change it, And so
it can be overwhelming just to like what if you
say the wrong thing, what if you're doing the wrong thing.
It can be frustrating at times, which I know we'll
talk a little about, you know, but overall, I think
it was just like I just kept telling myself. And
it's kind of funny because you know, how things happened
(04:08):
at right times for different reasons. I had met a
friend of mine a few years back and she was
going through a hard time and I don't know, you know,
all the details of it, but she was.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Like, just lead with love back then.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
And so I was like, Okay, I just kept trying
to tell myself, just like, lead with love, lead with patience,
and let the professionals do what they can do.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And that was one of the biggest things I tell
people with my support system, whether it's you, mom, dad,
my brother, you know, the closest people to me, my friends,
is how patient everybody was with me. Nobody forced me
to get over things quickly, you know, if they're like
with the divorce or with things I was struggling with.
It wasn't like, well, just get over it, and everybody
(04:55):
sat with me in it and let me feel it
and go through it.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
It's a long process.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
It can be you want it to be overnight, but
it can also be a really long, ongoing process when
you go through anything traumatic or anything difficult. And so
I would say the best thing that my support system
did was give me the patience and the grace to
go through it. And sometimes it's just sitting next to
that person, because when I would be going through anxiety attacks,
(05:23):
my sister would just sit there and hold my hand
and that was enough in those moments because you feel
so scared and so alone. And so but again, I
wanted to do this because I think the support people
get forgotten about in a lot of ways during this
and what are some of the sacrifices that they make
(05:44):
when they become a support person? And so what did
life change for you when this got really bad? Did
what things changed in your life?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Okay, first of all, I feel guilty even like saying this.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
We were gonna be honest, No, you said we were
going to be but I'm like, oh my god, I
just feel like I'm like, you're the one that's going
through it, right, But I.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Home was tough.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Work is tough, you know, it's the.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Almost and I don't want to use this term lightly
by any means, but almost like a PTSD kind of feeling,
like every time I get a text, every time I
get a phone call, every time, you know, I don't
necessarily know what's on the other side.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So it's of how my what am I going to
be feeling? What we're going to be going through?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Yeah, like what is you know, am I getting? It's
really like happy Carly, or am I getting?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
You know, I get out of bed.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I can't get out of bed and I have to
be there in ten minutes.
Speaker 5 (06:46):
You know.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
It's being in a work meeting and you know, having
my phone out and making sure that it's on, it's
on so that I don't miss a message, you know.
And I think, brutally honest, I think it's the weight
of feeling like I if I don't get that, what's
(07:10):
going to be.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
The result of that is that life for death?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Is that life for death? Because again trigger I always
want to mention trigger warnings here, But with my suicidal ideation,
I was very honest and open with my family about it,
and I had to be because the more that I
kept it in, the worse it was feeling. And so
I know, for you that was an extremely heavy thing
because the idea of losing me, oh my gosh, I
(07:34):
can't even like, yeah, you are my soulmates. We always
say that we're soulmates. We were meant to be together
someday right.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
When we're we're.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Together, yeah exactly, But you know it's with that, it's like,
I can't imagine my life without you in so many ways,
selfishly for me, but also like I know you, I
know what you can do, I know the mom you are.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I have seen you. I'm like, i've seen you since
you were born.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
So dramatic, you know, but I've seen you like be
so amazing with so many things, and be this great
friend and be the president of student counselor in high
school and be motivated, be motivated and be such a leader.
And it mostly breaks my heart to see you not
(08:31):
being able to use that right now, you know. And
I say right now specifically because I know that you
will get back there and you will do whatever you
want to, you know, And maybe it looks different than
it did before, and it doesn't have to be.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Life isn't perfect all the time, right, you know, And
that just is what it is.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Like. Nobody goes through life feeling like they've accomplished it
all or that they're always doing the right thing.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
You know, have everything they want. And that's why and
talking to you and the reason why had my sister
to do this with me because I have had a
ton of support from friends and other family and everything.
But I kid you not.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
My sister has.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Become a life coach. And I I mean, I'm not
a life coach kind of gal, but she is the
most if you've met her, she is the most confident, happy,
positive human being on the planet, no matter what is
going on. And she would text me things in the
morning to motivate me for the day. She would text
(09:32):
me at night she'd say, this is what we're doing today.
When I was going through the worst of the worst,
she would just help me plan how to keep going.
And so I continue to tell her she's got to
do this as a business because she could. She walked
me through the biggest challenge of my life and it's
no small feet and you did it in such a positive,
(09:55):
wonderful way, and so it's extremely impressive. Let's talk about
the day you because you really ended up taking charge
of my treatment situations too, because at the time Jason
was in Pittsburgh with the kids, and you were the
one that was helping me get into where I needed to.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Be to be safe.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
And so let's talk about the day you dropped me
off at MPATH, which was the short term stay for
immediate mental health crisis. You dropped me off that day,
do you remember what you felt?
Speaker 5 (10:27):
I do.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
I will never forget it. And just kind of to
back up for a second, because I know you talked
a little bit about this on your the last four
episodes that you did, but I think calling Hennipin County, Yeah,
that day was that was the smartest thing we've ever done.
Was because we were sitting there and I'm like, what
(10:48):
do we do? I had no idea what to do.
It was like, you know, knew we needed to do something,
but we didn't know what steps to take. No, And
I cannot imagine while we went through it, but like
who do you call? What do you do? What's the
right way to do it? Like you know, when you're
sitting at rock bottom, like who do you call? And
calling Hennepin County was life changing because they led us
(11:11):
to m path. They were like this is where you go,
and what they said was set up a time and
give yourself a deadline, give yourself a deadline.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
So you dropped me off.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
We did.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
We went to m Path and it was terrifying. It
was terrifying. I'll never forget it.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
It was like.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I wanted to go with you.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
I was like, let's just do this together.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
But then I was like, I can't. This has to
be your journey. I knew that you could, and I
knew that you wanted.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
To, and so that gave me comfort.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
I sat in the parking lot or like that little
parking ramp four hours, like literally hours, because at the
time Mom and Dad happened to be out of town
and they were like rushing to get back.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
But I was like, I can't.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
I can't leave, Like I don't know, like what if
something happens. And I think it was more of like
even a comfort thing for me, but I was like close, right,
and so like dropped you off, and then we're like
what can you bring?
Speaker 1 (12:18):
What you can't?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Can't you bring?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
So then I think we went home and I went
back to your apartment and packed up some stuff and
brought it back, dropped it off to the nurse, and
then I literally sat in the parking lot for hours. Yeah,
and I was just like, well, what if what if somebody?
What if somebody calls? What if somebody whatever? And then
I'm finally like, well, I guess I should go home.
I can't stay here forever at the entire time, right,
(12:42):
or I'm going to be checked in also, But like
I was, like it was, it was terrifying.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
But I knew that you were in the right place.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Yeah, finally it felt like I was safe.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
It felt like it was time.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
We were so unsure and I was. We were all
feeling anythink on pins and needles about my mental health
and about me. Yeah, and so finally it felt like
you maybe could breathe, especially when I went to the
long term treatment, that I was in a place that
felt safe.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Well, and here's the brutally honest side too, that I
feel guilty about. But a part of me felt a
little relief. Oh of course, like, oh my gosh, somebody
like somebody else is going to be able to give
her direction.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, it's not just me. The weight of it was
not all on you anymore, right. And so I hate
to say that because I feel guilty about it, because I.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Don't you know, But at the same time, it's like
I I can be there for you, but the problem
was bigger than me, you know, like what you were
going through was bigger than me, was bigger than our family,
was bigger than anything that we could do.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
It was not this.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
You know, you see these all over Instagram right about,
like the little like motivational posts and stuff like that,
and it's people, it's like change your circumstance.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
It's not.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
You can't just flip a switch and be like, Okay,
this is a you know, I'm changing my mindset. A
lot of it is, you know, doing the right things and.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Those making the right choices.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
But if something traumatic has happened, or you're dealing with
mental illness anything like that, it takes a long time
to make the changes, and it patients and the.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
People in your life have to just take care of
themselves too.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Yeah, And that was and I think I'm you know,
and this is not to pat myself in the back
or anything, but like I'm kind of always like looking,
I want to make sure everybody else in the room
is comfortable, and I am happy standing in the back
like if everybody else is. And so it was like
I just wanted to make sure that like you were okay,
you know, and I was like, I will sleep in
(14:43):
this car in the parking lot. I will like, we
will do whatever we have to do, like and Katie.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Stayed overnight with me a lot of times and she
has her own life, and so that was one of
the reasons I really wanted to do this episode is
because there are many many people out there that listen
to the first four episodes that's that say I'm not
dealing with the mental health or I don't have the substance,
or I've never felt that trauma, whatever, but I am
married to someone who is or my sister or my
(15:11):
brother or whoever it is, and that they know that
they're not alone, that there's people like you that are
people like them. You know that we all can relate
in some way to each other and to being the
support and making sure that I acknowledged on this podcast
how recognized.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
You are as a support people, how loved you are,
and how it is.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Not anything you're doing is not too little, nothing. And
I would just say my biggest thing is just don't
give up on someone like I am a big isolator.
When things start to get bad for me, I tend
to isolate. That's my biggest red flag. And I have
friends and family who just don't give up on me.
They don't stop reaching out, they don't let me miss
(15:56):
things all the time. They just they show up for me.
And So if you have someone in your life like
this and they're either not ready to take the steps
or you're frustrated, I can.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I get it.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
And you have to take care of yourself first. I
always said to Katie if she couldn't do something, she
had to take care of herself first. So it is
in no way to say if you're the support person
you have to just take it on the chin all
the time. It's just to say that this is life.
And if you want to be the support person and
ken and they're respecting you and loving you back the
(16:28):
person going through it, then have patience and show up
for them and give them just a lot of unconditional
love because it is not easy for anybody in these situations.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Well, especially if you don't have a support system at home,
you know, like if you don't have like a partner
or somebody at home that can help you help you
through it, where do you go?
Speaker 5 (16:48):
You know?
Speaker 4 (16:48):
And then you feel that much more isolated, you know,
And so I think that that was one thing that
got me excited about talking about this today too, was like,
you know, you got to find a support system somewhere,
and if you don't have it at home physically in
your house, who can that be, you know?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
And how do you build it?
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Right? You know, like we were lucky to be born
into a support system like you know, with with you know,
you and I being sisters and our brother and you
know parents and you know my husband is and then
oh my god, I can't even say enough things about Mark.
That's it. There's the way our whole episode and that
has shown up for me and my kids, right, and
(17:33):
knowing that, like no matter what what I kept telling myself,
I will not let you fail.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I will not let this be the end of your
story like I was going. I remember watching you sleep
one time. Oh my god, how creepy you are?
Speaker 4 (17:49):
So creepy?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Are you the creepiest caretaker?
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I remember watching you sleep one time and being like
like thinking, oh my god, she finally fell asleep. Thank goodness,
you can get some and being like I will give
you my energy, like I am channeling my energy to you,
which is clearly impossible to do, but like I was, like,
I will channel my energy into you if you can't.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
You know, quote unquote live.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
For this for yourself right now, like you use this
to just keep breathing, and we will will this to happen.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
And God is a plan.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And it is I try to keep your mind in
myself that you get this one life, like Chris Hockey
says all the time, and it's just what do you
want to do with it?
Speaker 5 (18:36):
You know?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
And I'm still trying to figure it out, but I'm
so thankful that I have you. Is there anything else
you wanted to say? When my sister hops off, We're
going to have a professional come on to talk about
real serious ways in which you can help each other too,
because I think the emotional side of this is extremely
important and talking with Katie and the depth of how
it feels. But also we want to give you guys
(18:59):
some real information on what to do to help the
people in your lives. And so is there any other
things that you wanted to talk about during the process
of doing this with me? I know there's probably a
million but that you wanted to talk about.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
I think the biggest thing, at least for me, is
I can be sometimes a tough love person where like
all right, come on, let's go, like, what's what's your
howth frustrating?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, but tough love does not work.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
And I just tried to take the lead from you
and from your professionals, like what I without, you know,
getting into your and trying to respect your privacy. I
asked a lot of questions like what are you learning?
What are the tools that you're learning from the professional and.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
You would you would you would connect directly with the
therapist I was working with at the treatment centers too, Yes,
and so they could That was helpful. So again, if
anything ever like that, this ever happens in your world,
remember that the people at those places are there to
help your entire family. Yeah, and so stay in contact
with them.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Stay in contact with them, and understand the tools that
they are learning, you know, like Carly, like you were
learning when you were in treatment and when you were
getting help and your support, because then when you are
at your lowest, I try to go to you and
be like what do you need from me? And then
I can, you know, trying to help you work through
(20:28):
this for a while, I kind of know what I'm
looking for maybe like what I could see your triggers
being and saying, okay, well what did you learn when
you were there? Then it's not me telling you what
to do, Like who am I to tell you what
to do? I don't know what you're feeling, But what
did you learn when you.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Were in there? What worked for you before?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I've seen it work for you.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
So when you are at a low point again, you
know you're not hitting rock bottom, like I can remind you,
grab that ice cube to trigger your system, take a shower,
you know, do your meditation, do the work you you know,
and just really leaning on what you've learned and asking
questions versus telling I used to when we started this,
(21:12):
I was telling you.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I was like do this, do this, do this, do this,
and you came to me and was like, no, yeah,
it's it's such It's like you said, it's such a
fine line with the tough love, I think and the
support because there is so much of the person watching
this happen going, oh my gosh, just be positive, change
your mindset, get up, do this. You'd be so much
(21:34):
happier if you just did X, Y and Z. But
to the person going through it, it feels like this
enormous mountain sometimes to even just get out of bed.
And so it's it, but it's so it's a tough
thing because it's like, well, you don't want that person.
You don't just let that person sit in bed all
day because that's not good for them either. So it's
this amazing balancing act of trying to motivate your the
(21:58):
people you love and be there for them and also
let them feel what they need to feel. And I
don't think we've ever we will ever perfect it, any
of us, but we're just not here to say, you know,
build your support system and find those people professionals and
not and family and friends, because that's the one that's
what you need for this and.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
When you don't have somebody or if you feel alone
in the moment. I mean, I know, Carly, you've said
your stuff is open, but so is mine, yes, you know,
and like I want to take your lead on that,
and like all we all I want to do.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Is just do you want to give people your Instagram handle? Yeah,
it's just it's at Katie Applin And so you send
me a DM you guys, like I'm especially if you're
not the me in the situation and you want to
hear it talk be frustrated with someone who's in it,
like she understands and she gets it to such a
high level, and so don't be afraid. I know she
wants to be a resource as well.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
I'm just happy to help literally anybody, because I know
the feeling of not knowing where to go and not
knowing if you're doing the right things and just sitting
there and you know, being scared about that, and that
every single move that you make could be could make
the difference of a life or death of somebody else,
you know, and that.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Shouldn't be on you. Though that's not on you necessarily,
it feels that.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
It feels like it is even though it's not, and
it definitely, very clearly is not, you know. And I
don't have the power to make or break that with
somebody else.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
But you just want to do the right thing.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Well, I love you. I love you so much. I'm
so cruel so.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Proud of you.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Okay, we're gonna take a little bit break and then
moving back to talk about some logistics and some real
life ways that you can help those that you love
and that are ben your hostelf.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
If you're the support person.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
I don't know what to be.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Questions. So we just said goodbye to my sister Katie Applin.
You can reach out to her on Instagram if you
want to talk to her about being a support person
in these worlds of mental health and addiction. And joining
me is Pam Landhart. She I've actually met through another
friend in the recovery community, and she has a much
(24:17):
more professional outlook on what families and systems can do
to support. So first, Pam, will you just tell us
what your title is and what you do.
Speaker 5 (24:25):
Yeah. I founded a nonprofit in twenty sixteen called Thrive
Family Recovery Resources, So all day, every day, I assist
families that are impacted by their love and substance use.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
So I've Thrive is actually very popular. I've heard of
it before.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
But so, if let's just say someone's at home and
they know their person is struggling, sister, brother, spouse, doesn't matter, right,
they know their person is struggling, whether it's mental health, addiction,
or both. Do you have any advice for that person
who's watching it unfold? Because you really can't force someone
(25:05):
to get help, right, So what is your advice for
people in those situations.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Yeah, So first I would validate their experience because it
is so hard to live with someone that is suffering.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
In any way and in with any disease.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
And when we work with families, we really kind of
have a three point process that we help them with,
and the first one is education. So when you understand
addiction as a disease, as a brain disorder, you can
start to take the blame and shame out of it.
When someone is loving somebody that is struggling and their
(25:45):
behaviors might be difficult and problematic, it feels personal.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, And oftentimes we take.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
The behaviors personally. How could they do that to me?
How could they let this happen? And why can't they
just stop? So the first step we take with families
is really educating them. There's tons of videos out in
the cyber world. There's a lot of videos that are
put out by Sam's, by Addiction Policy Forum, by private
(26:19):
entities or private companies that really explain the neuroscience of
addiction and what's happening with that person. I like to
say we have to think about not what's wrong with
them and believe that these people are not bad people.
They're unwell people, so helping them understand that this is
(26:42):
really about a solution for the pain that their loved
one is feeling.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
And it also doesn't take away or make okay what
they're doing right. And I'm sure you talk a lot
of bit about that because for me, accountability with my
mental health.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
And addiction is a big piece of this because it.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Doesn't mean that anything that I do or anything that
I say or my actions should be like, well, she
can't help it, she has this going on. There's accountability
with all of this too. That is incredibly important. And
I want people that may be struggling like I am
to feel because you do need the support, you need
the education to help the love, but you also need
some accountability for what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
We call that loving well in our work, which is
love without boundaries is self harm and boundaries without love
is dehumanization.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
And so you have to have the balance of both.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I can.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
Hold my boundaries, and it's really important. I can't heal
as a family member if my home isn't safe. That's
number one. Like healing happens in safe places. So if
a person's behaviors are impacting your sense of well being,
then there's a need for those boundaries. But when I
set boundaries, then I can stay in a place of kindness, empathy,
(28:10):
and compassion. Brene Brown talks about this in her Boundaries
video that if I have really strong boundaries, I can
tread water all day. So for families, it's that balance
of I need to be safe and so many families
work so hard to try to save their love one. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, So when that person wants to take that step,
how do you find the right fit for them? How
do they know where to go what to do? Because
I remember when I was trying to figure out where
to go, when I was struggling my lowest, I didn't
even know what to do, where to go. And so
if somebody's listening and they're like, I just don't even
know my.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
First step, what would you suggest as the first step?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
So one of the beautiful things about healthy family relationships
and when we do respond with understanding, generally the family
member is the one that gets that called. It says
mom or Dad, I need help, or CCI need some help.
As an organization, we actually provide that for free to families.
(29:18):
We can take a phone call from them navigating the
systems of care is a full time job, and so
we actually really encourage family members to look at that
ahead of time. As a family member, I can at
least do a little bit of research and try to
understand what kind of insurance does my loved one have,
(29:40):
what is their situation, do they have co occurring disorders,
so if they're really struggling with mental health, which most
people are, finding a treatment center that offers that additional
help for mental health treatment and diagnosis, and then also
(30:01):
having a few options and just understanding the different levels
of care so that if their loved one does come
to them, they can say, I understand, I think this
is a brave step, and here are a few choices
for you, so that we want to make sure that
we do not take choice away from the people that
(30:23):
we love.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, and what you just said, I want to stress
to a lot to anybody listening is finding the right place.
Because there are facilities that specialize in a twelve step program,
there are facilities that specialize in substance tied with mental health.
There's some that are just mental health that don't have
there's so there are so many places out there. I
(30:46):
went to a trauma center as I've said before in
Colorado because I needed to help with dealing with some trauma.
So it's I was fortunate enough to find all that,
like boutire was mental health and addiction, which is where
I started. I knew this wasn't just about drinking for me.
I knew it was me numbing everything I wanted, you know,
I didn't want to feel anymore. So it's a lot
(31:06):
about finding the right facility, too right, and.
Speaker 5 (31:09):
That's why we really like to work with those families
to find out what's a good fit. And I'll add
to that that in our culture right now, where fentanyl
is prevalent, there's also at times and in many instances,
a need for life saving medications such as a box
zone or vivatrol. And so for some people they're so
(31:32):
afraid to go into treatment because they don't want to
go through those horrific, painful withdrawals, and finding a medical
provider that would support medications for withdrawal or for ongoing
success in recovery can be a game changer for people
that are using opioids or fentanyl. And so we take
(31:55):
a very no one size fits all approach. Our organization
doesn't We're not aligned with any treatment centers or any modalities.
So some people find their success in the twelve steps,
some people find their success with a faith based recovery.
Some people find their success with modalities like cognitive behavioral
(32:18):
therapy and dialectical behavioral therapy and medications, and so listening
to your family member and thinking about what do they
need in order to really feel like they can be
successful in recovery. And this is really important if they've
been through multiple treatments.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yes, yeah, and that's not uncommon for people to have
been to many treatment facilities before, and so it is
it's finding out what can be the most successful for
that person and the whole family, the entire family, friends,
whatever that looks like, for your support, but it's for
everybody around you too, because you know, we only get
this one.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Life, ye, and we want to try to make.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
The most of it. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:59):
I think it's really important when you and we when
we vet treatment programs. So I've probably walked through three
hundred or more treatment programs throughout the country and have
developed this really ethical network. But I always look for
programs that also have a robust family program so that
you know, one of the things they talk about is
(33:20):
how addiction impacts the family system, and as family members,
we can start to heal the family system even before
the loved one gets into treatment. So we have to
sometimes there's sort of these narratives of there's nothing you
can do, or you know, they're not gonna get help
until they're ready. But we can create an environment that
(33:44):
will support change versus that will shut down change.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (33:51):
And so we really work with families to get them
out of the blaming, the shaming, the you know others
like dehumanizing their loved ones and creating this recovery orient
in an environment. And we think that recovery is for
both the family member and the loved one, and again
for the family that doesn't it could mean going.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
To an Alana meeting.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
We have our own support groups that we offer, but
it also could mean holistically, I'm going to incorporate things
into my life that will give me a greater sense
of well being so that all of my eggs aren't
in the basket of getting my loved one well.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Absolutely, and taking care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I think what you just I want to end in
just a moment here about what you said just completely
was like an aha moment for me when because you
do spend so much time going well, you can't force
someone to get help, you can't make them do this.
But when you just said, but you can create environments
where people want to heal or begin that healing. That
is something brand new to me and something I haven't
(34:57):
heard and I love. And so I hope that struck
a chord with you guys listening as well, because I
hope that gives you some hope. And that's what we
want to give to people, is hope. And So if
you wanted to talk to Pam Landhart or any of
the people she works with, if they wanted to get
in touch with you, they wanted to, you know, start
making those healing steps, and they're in their household, what
(35:19):
would you where would you say to contact?
Speaker 5 (35:21):
Yeah, so our website is Thrive th h R I
V E f R R dot org. We have a
warm line that they can call.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Tell us about a warm line because I also just
heard about these.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Yeah, so we have a uh, it's kind of a
helpline for a family member. If they're really in a
bad spot and they need some immediate assistance and guidance,
they can just color numbers, somebody's going to answer the phone,
and we can help with just some immediate like first
of all, like let's get the family member regulated because
(35:56):
they're usually pretty activated and in crisis.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
And then what do you need?
Speaker 5 (36:01):
How can we support you and help them sort of
sort through their next steps. And then in Minnesota, we
also have free what we call one on one family
coaching services or family.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Peer services, so they can call us and we have staff.
Speaker 5 (36:21):
That will help guide them individually, sort of like in
recovery there's a sober coach or a recovery coach.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
We're that entity for family members.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Wow, that's amazing. Well what you do is so needed,
And thank you so much, Pam for the work that
you do, because coming from someone who is in it,
I know that my family values it so much and
that I do as well. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
Yeah, Carly, thank you for inviting me, And congratulations on
your recovery too tonight. I just love that you're speaking
out about this to a broader audience because.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
We you know, we have to talk about these things.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, I think that the more we talk about it,
I'm realizing when I shared my story and I got
some feedback, you realize how many people are going through
it on varying levels. Right, nobody's one story is the same.
But my hope with this podcast with here we Go
is that we create a community that's there for each other,
that can lean on each other and support each other,
(37:21):
provide these resources and start building something to make our
lives a little bit better. So, yes, thank you so
much for the work you do, and everyone, thank you
so much for listening to Here we Go. Please go
to here we Go podcast dot com for more information
and we will have information on there for you and
any loved ones that might need it and all the
latest of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Thanks for listening. I'm krly Zucker and Here we Go.
Speaker 5 (37:50):
Down.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
Don't wanna be don't wanna be lost, don't wanna be down,
don't wanna.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Be loudly in the crowd, don't want to darkness to
come back find me.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
I don't want to be happy me
Wama wama wama.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
First off, a huge thank you to everyone who has
listened to the first four episodes of Here We Go
podcast with Carlie Zucker. I'm Carlie Zucker and it has
been heavy topics and you know we will continue to
talk about a lot of things that are emotional and
stressful for all of us going through so much at
this time. Joining me on Here we Go today is
(00:28):
my sister Katie's Harah.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
I was gonna say it the same last.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Name, which is not true, Kate had it for so
long and Katie Heronsky also known as Katie Applin, and
so we are the closest of the close. If you
see our social media, we are always together and she
has been my greatest support system through the depression, the anxiety,
(00:51):
the substance use, going to treatment, with the kids, everything,
And I can't stress enough how much supports this are
important during these times because you can't do it alone.
You just can't. And I needed the professional help of treatment,
which I talk about in the first four episodes. But
then when you get home, what does that look like
(01:12):
or when you don't go to treatment, what does that
look like? And who is your support and so wanted
to talk today with my sister because we think a
lot about the people going through it, you know, the
people with the addiction, of the people with the mental
health issues.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And you know, we feel for them.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
But when you are the other person in the story,
when you're the support person, that is also unbelievably difficult,
and what does that look like for them? So maybe
if you can't relate to me, maybe you can relate
to my sister. So I wanted to have Katie to
come in and talk about what things that she's gone
through with me, what's gone through her head, what she's done,
(01:50):
what has worked for her, and the health of herself
and making sure she takes care of herself. So, hey, hey, hey,
I first want to talk about we'll get into like
the details details, but overall the feelings of being a
support person to somebody with mental health, addiction, any of it,
(02:11):
all of it. What has been like it for you,
especially in the last two years where it's been really difficult.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Well, first, thank you so much for having me. I
guess sitting here and really watching you tell your story
through the first four episodes is incredibly inspiring and has
been for lack of a better term fun for me
to see you do because I feel like you're taking
control over your story and it's it's just really been amazing.
(02:44):
And so I couldn't be more proud of you to
like watch you share this because I'm.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Already getting tears.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
I'm not crying, but just watching you share this, I
truly can't. You're going to reach so many people, and
I'm so incredibly proud of you for that. So I
just wanted to quickly share that. But as far as
kind of what it feels like is really overwhelming to
(03:12):
be honest, like you, I don't ever know, you know
if you're doing the right thing, if you're saying the
right thing. Plus for me personally, I'm such a fixer.
Like if somebody comes to me and is like, Okay,
I have this problem, I'm like, Okay, well what are
we going to do to fix it? Like I have
(03:33):
a really hard time stepping back and trying to even
understand where they're coming from first. And so that was
like a huge learning piece for me.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Realizing you can't fix this. I can't fix it.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
I can't fix it, I can't change it, And so
it can be overwhelming just to like what if you
say the wrong thing, what if you're doing the wrong thing.
It can be frustrating at times, which I know we'll
talk a little about, you know, but overall, I think
it was just like I just kept telling myself. And
it's kind of funny because you know, how things happened
(04:08):
at right times for different reasons. I had met a
friend of mine a few years back and she was
going through a hard time and I don't know, you know,
all the details of it, but she was.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Like, just lead with love back then.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
And so I was like, Okay, I just kept trying
to tell myself, just like, lead with love, lead with patience,
and let the professionals do what they can do.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And that was one of the biggest things I tell
people with my support system, whether it's you, mom, dad,
my brother, you know, the closest people to me, my friends,
is how patient everybody was with me. Nobody forced me
to get over things quickly, you know, if they're like
with the divorce or with things I was struggling with.
It wasn't like, well, just get over it, and everybody
(04:55):
sat with me in it and let me feel it
and go through it.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
It's a long process.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
It can be you want it to be overnight, but
it can also be a really long, ongoing process when
you go through anything traumatic or anything difficult. And so
I would say the best thing that my support system
did was give me the patience and the grace to
go through it. And sometimes it's just sitting next to
that person, because when I would be going through anxiety attacks,
(05:23):
my sister would just sit there and hold my hand
and that was enough in those moments because you feel
so scared and so alone. And so but again, I
wanted to do this because I think the support people
get forgotten about in a lot of ways during this
and what are some of the sacrifices that they make
(05:44):
when they become a support person? And so what did
life change for you when this got really bad? Did
what things changed in your life?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Okay, first of all, I feel guilty even like saying this.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
We were gonna be honest, No, you said we were
going to be but I'm like, oh my god, I
just feel like I'm like, you're the one that's going
through it, right, But I.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Home was tough.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Work is tough, you know, it's the.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Almost and I don't want to use this term lightly
by any means, but almost like a PTSD kind of feeling,
like every time I get a text, every time I
get a phone call, every time, you know, I don't
necessarily know what's on the other side.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So it's of how my what am I going to
be feeling? What we're going to be going through?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Yeah, like what is you know, am I getting? It's
really like happy Carly, or am I getting?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
You know, I get out of bed.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I can't get out of bed and I have to
be there in ten minutes.
Speaker 5 (06:46):
You know.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
It's being in a work meeting and you know, having
my phone out and making sure that it's on, it's
on so that I don't miss a message, you know.
And I think, brutally honest, I think it's the weight
of feeling like I if I don't get that, what's
(07:10):
going to be.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
The result of that is that life for death?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Is that life for death? Because again trigger I always
want to mention trigger warnings here, But with my suicidal ideation,
I was very honest and open with my family about it,
and I had to be because the more that I
kept it in, the worse it was feeling. And so
I know, for you that was an extremely heavy thing
because the idea of losing me, oh my gosh, I
(07:34):
can't even like, yeah, you are my soulmates. We always
say that we're soulmates. We were meant to be together
someday right.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
When we're we're.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Together, yeah exactly, But you know it's with that, it's like,
I can't imagine my life without you in so many ways,
selfishly for me, but also like I know you, I
know what you can do, I know the mom you are.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I have seen you. I'm like, i've seen you since
you were born.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
So dramatic, you know, but I've seen you like be
so amazing with so many things, and be this great
friend and be the president of student counselor in high
school and be motivated, be motivated and be such a leader.
And it mostly breaks my heart to see you not
(08:31):
being able to use that right now, you know. And
I say right now specifically because I know that you
will get back there and you will do whatever you
want to, you know, And maybe it looks different than
it did before, and it doesn't have to be.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Life isn't perfect all the time, right, you know, And
that just is what it is.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Like. Nobody goes through life feeling like they've accomplished it
all or that they're always doing the right thing.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
You know, have everything they want. And that's why and
talking to you and the reason why had my sister
to do this with me because I have had a
ton of support from friends and other family and everything.
But I kid you not.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
My sister has.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Become a life coach. And I I mean, I'm not
a life coach kind of gal, but she is the
most if you've met her, she is the most confident, happy,
positive human being on the planet, no matter what is
going on. And she would text me things in the
morning to motivate me for the day. She would text
(09:32):
me at night she'd say, this is what we're doing today.
When I was going through the worst of the worst,
she would just help me plan how to keep going.
And so I continue to tell her she's got to
do this as a business because she could. She walked
me through the biggest challenge of my life and it's
no small feet and you did it in such a positive,
(09:55):
wonderful way, and so it's extremely impressive. Let's talk about
the day you because you really ended up taking charge
of my treatment situations too, because at the time Jason
was in Pittsburgh with the kids, and you were the
one that was helping me get into where I needed to.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Be to be safe.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
And so let's talk about the day you dropped me
off at MPATH, which was the short term stay for
immediate mental health crisis. You dropped me off that day,
do you remember what you felt?
Speaker 5 (10:27):
I do.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
I will never forget it. And just kind of to
back up for a second, because I know you talked
a little bit about this on your the last four
episodes that you did, but I think calling Hennipin County, Yeah,
that day was that was the smartest thing we've ever done.
Was because we were sitting there and I'm like, what
(10:48):
do we do? I had no idea what to do.
It was like, you know, knew we needed to do something,
but we didn't know what steps to take. No, And
I cannot imagine while we went through it, but like
who do you call? What do you do? What's the
right way to do it? Like you know, when you're
sitting at rock bottom, like who do you call? And
calling Hennepin County was life changing because they led us
(11:11):
to m path. They were like this is where you go,
and what they said was set up a time and
give yourself a deadline, give yourself a deadline.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
So you dropped me off.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
We did.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
We went to m Path and it was terrifying. It
was terrifying. I'll never forget it.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
It was like.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I wanted to go with you.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
I was like, let's just do this together.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
But then I was like, I can't. This has to
be your journey. I knew that you could, and I
knew that you wanted.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
To, and so that gave me comfort.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
I sat in the parking lot or like that little
parking ramp four hours, like literally hours, because at the
time Mom and Dad happened to be out of town
and they were like rushing to get back.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
But I was like, I can't.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
I can't leave, Like I don't know, like what if
something happens. And I think it was more of like
even a comfort thing for me, but I was like close, right,
and so like dropped you off, and then we're like
what can you bring?
Speaker 1 (12:18):
What you can't?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Can't you bring?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
So then I think we went home and I went
back to your apartment and packed up some stuff and
brought it back, dropped it off to the nurse, and
then I literally sat in the parking lot for hours. Yeah,
and I was just like, well, what if what if somebody?
What if somebody calls? What if somebody whatever? And then
I'm finally like, well, I guess I should go home.
I can't stay here forever at the entire time, right,
(12:42):
or I'm going to be checked in also, But like
I was, like it was, it was terrifying.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
But I knew that you were in the right place.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Yeah, finally it felt like I was safe.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
It felt like it was time.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
We were so unsure and I was. We were all
feeling anythink on pins and needles about my mental health
and about me. Yeah, and so finally it felt like
you maybe could breathe, especially when I went to the
long term treatment, that I was in a place that
felt safe.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Well, and here's the brutally honest side too, that I
feel guilty about. But a part of me felt a
little relief. Oh of course, like, oh my gosh, somebody
like somebody else is going to be able to give
her direction.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, it's not just me. The weight of it was
not all on you anymore, right. And so I hate
to say that because I feel guilty about it, because I.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Don't you know, But at the same time, it's like
I I can be there for you, but the problem
was bigger than me, you know, like what you were
going through was bigger than me, was bigger than our family,
was bigger than anything that we could do.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
It was not this.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
You know, you see these all over Instagram right about,
like the little like motivational posts and stuff like that,
and it's people, it's like change your circumstance.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
It's not.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
You can't just flip a switch and be like, Okay,
this is a you know, I'm changing my mindset. A
lot of it is, you know, doing the right things and.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Those making the right choices.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
But if something traumatic has happened, or you're dealing with
mental illness anything like that, it takes a long time
to make the changes, and it patients and the.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
People in your life have to just take care of
themselves too.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Yeah, And that was and I think I'm you know,
and this is not to pat myself in the back
or anything, but like I'm kind of always like looking,
I want to make sure everybody else in the room
is comfortable, and I am happy standing in the back
like if everybody else is. And so it was like
I just wanted to make sure that like you were okay,
you know, and I was like, I will sleep in
(14:43):
this car in the parking lot. I will like, we
will do whatever we have to do, like and Katie.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Stayed overnight with me a lot of times and she
has her own life, and so that was one of
the reasons I really wanted to do this episode is
because there are many many people out there that listen
to the first four episodes that's that say I'm not
dealing with the mental health or I don't have the substance,
or I've never felt that trauma, whatever, but I am
married to someone who is or my sister or my
(15:11):
brother or whoever it is, and that they know that
they're not alone, that there's people like you that are
people like them. You know that we all can relate
in some way to each other and to being the
support and making sure that I acknowledged on this podcast
how recognized.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
You are as a support people, how loved you are,
and how it is.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Not anything you're doing is not too little, nothing. And
I would just say my biggest thing is just don't
give up on someone like I am a big isolator.
When things start to get bad for me, I tend
to isolate. That's my biggest red flag. And I have
friends and family who just don't give up on me.
They don't stop reaching out, they don't let me miss
(15:56):
things all the time. They just they show up for me.
And So if you have someone in your life like
this and they're either not ready to take the steps
or you're frustrated, I can.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I get it.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
And you have to take care of yourself first. I
always said to Katie if she couldn't do something, she
had to take care of herself first. So it is
in no way to say if you're the support person
you have to just take it on the chin all
the time. It's just to say that this is life.
And if you want to be the support person and
ken and they're respecting you and loving you back the
(16:28):
person going through it, then have patience and show up
for them and give them just a lot of unconditional
love because it is not easy for anybody in these situations.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Well, especially if you don't have a support system at home,
you know, like if you don't have like a partner
or somebody at home that can help you help you
through it, where do you go?
Speaker 5 (16:48):
You know?
Speaker 4 (16:48):
And then you feel that much more isolated, you know,
And so I think that that was one thing that
got me excited about talking about this today too, was like,
you know, you got to find a support system somewhere,
and if you don't have it at home physically in
your house, who can that be, you know?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
And how do you build it?
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Right? You know, like we were lucky to be born
into a support system like you know, with with you know,
you and I being sisters and our brother and you
know parents and you know my husband is and then
oh my god, I can't even say enough things about Mark.
That's it. There's the way our whole episode and that
has shown up for me and my kids, right, and
(17:33):
knowing that, like no matter what what I kept telling myself,
I will not let you fail.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I will not let this be the end of your
story like I was going. I remember watching you sleep
one time. Oh my god, how creepy you are?
Speaker 4 (17:49):
So creepy?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Are you the creepiest caretaker?
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I remember watching you sleep one time and being like
like thinking, oh my god, she finally fell asleep. Thank goodness,
you can get some and being like I will give
you my energy, like I am channeling my energy to you,
which is clearly impossible to do, but like I was, like,
I will channel my energy into you if you can't.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
You know, quote unquote live.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
For this for yourself right now, like you use this
to just keep breathing, and we will will this to happen.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
And God is a plan.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And it is I try to keep your mind in
myself that you get this one life, like Chris Hockey
says all the time, and it's just what do you
want to do with it?
Speaker 5 (18:36):
You know?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
And I'm still trying to figure it out, but I'm
so thankful that I have you. Is there anything else
you wanted to say? When my sister hops off, We're
going to have a professional come on to talk about
real serious ways in which you can help each other too,
because I think the emotional side of this is extremely
important and talking with Katie and the depth of how
it feels. But also we want to give you guys
(18:59):
some real information on what to do to help the
people in your lives. And so is there any other
things that you wanted to talk about during the process
of doing this with me? I know there's probably a
million but that you wanted to talk about.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
I think the biggest thing, at least for me, is
I can be sometimes a tough love person where like
all right, come on, let's go, like, what's what's your
howth frustrating?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, but tough love does not work.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
And I just tried to take the lead from you
and from your professionals, like what I without, you know,
getting into your and trying to respect your privacy. I
asked a lot of questions like what are you learning?
What are the tools that you're learning from the professional and.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
You would you would you would connect directly with the
therapist I was working with at the treatment centers too, Yes,
and so they could That was helpful. So again, if
anything ever like that, this ever happens in your world,
remember that the people at those places are there to
help your entire family. Yeah, and so stay in contact
with them.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Stay in contact with them, and understand the tools that
they are learning, you know, like Carly, like you were
learning when you were in treatment and when you were
getting help and your support, because then when you are
at your lowest, I try to go to you and
be like what do you need from me? And then
I can, you know, trying to help you work through
(20:28):
this for a while, I kind of know what I'm
looking for maybe like what I could see your triggers
being and saying, okay, well what did you learn when
you were there? Then it's not me telling you what
to do, Like who am I to tell you what
to do? I don't know what you're feeling, But what
did you learn when you.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Were in there? What worked for you before?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I've seen it work for you.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
So when you are at a low point again, you
know you're not hitting rock bottom, like I can remind you,
grab that ice cube to trigger your system, take a shower,
you know, do your meditation, do the work you you know,
and just really leaning on what you've learned and asking
questions versus telling I used to when we started this,
(21:12):
I was telling you.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I was like do this, do this, do this, do this,
and you came to me and was like, no, yeah,
it's it's such It's like you said, it's such a
fine line with the tough love, I think and the
support because there is so much of the person watching
this happen going, oh my gosh, just be positive, change
your mindset, get up, do this. You'd be so much
(21:34):
happier if you just did X, Y and Z. But
to the person going through it, it feels like this
enormous mountain sometimes to even just get out of bed.
And so it's it, but it's so it's a tough
thing because it's like, well, you don't want that person.
You don't just let that person sit in bed all
day because that's not good for them either. So it's
this amazing balancing act of trying to motivate your the
(21:58):
people you love and be there for them and also
let them feel what they need to feel. And I
don't think we've ever we will ever perfect it, any
of us, but we're just not here to say, you know,
build your support system and find those people professionals and
not and family and friends, because that's the one that's
what you need for this and.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
When you don't have somebody or if you feel alone
in the moment. I mean, I know, Carly, you've said
your stuff is open, but so is mine, yes, you know,
and like I want to take your lead on that,
and like all we all I want to do.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Is just do you want to give people your Instagram handle? Yeah,
it's just it's at Katie Applin And so you send
me a DM you guys, like I'm especially if you're
not the me in the situation and you want to
hear it talk be frustrated with someone who's in it,
like she understands and she gets it to such a
high level, and so don't be afraid. I know she
wants to be a resource as well.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
I'm just happy to help literally anybody, because I know
the feeling of not knowing where to go and not
knowing if you're doing the right things and just sitting
there and you know, being scared about that, and that
every single move that you make could be could make
the difference of a life or death of somebody else,
you know, and that.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Shouldn't be on you. Though that's not on you necessarily,
it feels that.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
It feels like it is even though it's not, and
it definitely, very clearly is not, you know. And I
don't have the power to make or break that with
somebody else.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
But you just want to do the right thing.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Well, I love you. I love you so much. I'm
so cruel so.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Proud of you.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Okay, we're gonna take a little bit break and then
moving back to talk about some logistics and some real
life ways that you can help those that you love
and that are ben your hostelf.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
If you're the support person.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
I don't know what to be.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Questions. So we just said goodbye to my sister Katie Applin.
You can reach out to her on Instagram if you
want to talk to her about being a support person
in these worlds of mental health and addiction. And joining
me is Pam Landhart. She I've actually met through another
friend in the recovery community, and she has a much
(24:17):
more professional outlook on what families and systems can do
to support. So first, Pam, will you just tell us
what your title is and what you do.
Speaker 5 (24:25):
Yeah. I founded a nonprofit in twenty sixteen called Thrive
Family Recovery Resources, So all day, every day, I assist
families that are impacted by their love and substance use.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
So I've Thrive is actually very popular. I've heard of
it before.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
But so, if let's just say someone's at home and
they know their person is struggling, sister, brother, spouse, doesn't matter, right,
they know their person is struggling, whether it's mental health, addiction,
or both. Do you have any advice for that person
who's watching it unfold? Because you really can't force someone
(25:05):
to get help, right, So what is your advice for
people in those situations.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Yeah, So first I would validate their experience because it
is so hard to live with someone that is suffering.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
In any way and in with any disease.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
And when we work with families, we really kind of
have a three point process that we help them with,
and the first one is education. So when you understand
addiction as a disease, as a brain disorder, you can
start to take the blame and shame out of it.
When someone is loving somebody that is struggling and their
(25:45):
behaviors might be difficult and problematic, it feels personal.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, And oftentimes we take.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
The behaviors personally. How could they do that to me?
How could they let this happen? And why can't they
just stop? So the first step we take with families
is really educating them. There's tons of videos out in
the cyber world. There's a lot of videos that are
put out by Sam's, by Addiction Policy Forum, by private
(26:19):
entities or private companies that really explain the neuroscience of
addiction and what's happening with that person. I like to
say we have to think about not what's wrong with
them and believe that these people are not bad people.
They're unwell people, so helping them understand that this is
(26:42):
really about a solution for the pain that their loved
one is feeling.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
And it also doesn't take away or make okay what
they're doing right. And I'm sure you talk a lot
of bit about that because for me, accountability with my
mental health.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
And addiction is a big piece of this because it.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Doesn't mean that anything that I do or anything that
I say or my actions should be like, well, she
can't help it, she has this going on. There's accountability
with all of this too. That is incredibly important. And
I want people that may be struggling like I am
to feel because you do need the support, you need
the education to help the love, but you also need
some accountability for what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
We call that loving well in our work, which is
love without boundaries is self harm and boundaries without love
is dehumanization.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
And so you have to have the balance of both.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I can.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
Hold my boundaries, and it's really important. I can't heal
as a family member if my home isn't safe. That's
number one. Like healing happens in safe places. So if
a person's behaviors are impacting your sense of well being,
then there's a need for those boundaries. But when I
set boundaries, then I can stay in a place of kindness, empathy,
(28:10):
and compassion. Brene Brown talks about this in her Boundaries
video that if I have really strong boundaries, I can
tread water all day. So for families, it's that balance
of I need to be safe and so many families
work so hard to try to save their love one. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, So when that person wants to take that step,
how do you find the right fit for them? How
do they know where to go what to do? Because
I remember when I was trying to figure out where
to go, when I was struggling my lowest, I didn't
even know what to do, where to go. And so
if somebody's listening and they're like, I just don't even
know my.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
First step, what would you suggest as the first step?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
So one of the beautiful things about healthy family relationships
and when we do respond with understanding, generally the family
member is the one that gets that called. It says
mom or Dad, I need help, or CCI need some help.
As an organization, we actually provide that for free to families.
(29:18):
We can take a phone call from them navigating the
systems of care is a full time job, and so
we actually really encourage family members to look at that
ahead of time. As a family member, I can at
least do a little bit of research and try to
understand what kind of insurance does my loved one have,
(29:40):
what is their situation, do they have co occurring disorders,
so if they're really struggling with mental health, which most
people are, finding a treatment center that offers that additional
help for mental health treatment and diagnosis, and then also
(30:01):
having a few options and just understanding the different levels
of care so that if their loved one does come
to them, they can say, I understand, I think this
is a brave step, and here are a few choices
for you, so that we want to make sure that
we do not take choice away from the people that
(30:23):
we love.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, and what you just said, I want to stress
to a lot to anybody listening is finding the right place.
Because there are facilities that specialize in a twelve step program,
there are facilities that specialize in substance tied with mental health.
There's some that are just mental health that don't have
there's so there are so many places out there. I
(30:46):
went to a trauma center as I've said before in
Colorado because I needed to help with dealing with some trauma.
So it's I was fortunate enough to find all that,
like boutire was mental health and addiction, which is where
I started. I knew this wasn't just about drinking for me.
I knew it was me numbing everything I wanted, you know,
I didn't want to feel anymore. So it's a lot
(31:06):
about finding the right facility, too right, and.
Speaker 5 (31:09):
That's why we really like to work with those families
to find out what's a good fit. And I'll add
to that that in our culture right now, where fentanyl
is prevalent, there's also at times and in many instances,
a need for life saving medications such as a box
zone or vivatrol. And so for some people they're so
(31:32):
afraid to go into treatment because they don't want to
go through those horrific, painful withdrawals, and finding a medical
provider that would support medications for withdrawal or for ongoing
success in recovery can be a game changer for people
that are using opioids or fentanyl. And so we take
(31:55):
a very no one size fits all approach. Our organization
doesn't We're not aligned with any treatment centers or any modalities.
So some people find their success in the twelve steps,
some people find their success with a faith based recovery.
Some people find their success with modalities like cognitive behavioral
(32:18):
therapy and dialectical behavioral therapy and medications, and so listening
to your family member and thinking about what do they
need in order to really feel like they can be
successful in recovery. And this is really important if they've
been through multiple treatments.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yes, yeah, and that's not uncommon for people to have
been to many treatment facilities before, and so it is
it's finding out what can be the most successful for
that person and the whole family, the entire family, friends,
whatever that looks like, for your support, but it's for
everybody around you too, because you know, we only get
this one.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Life, ye, and we want to try to make.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
The most of it. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:59):
I think it's really important when you and we when
we vet treatment programs. So I've probably walked through three
hundred or more treatment programs throughout the country and have
developed this really ethical network. But I always look for
programs that also have a robust family program so that
you know, one of the things they talk about is
(33:20):
how addiction impacts the family system, and as family members,
we can start to heal the family system even before
the loved one gets into treatment. So we have to
sometimes there's sort of these narratives of there's nothing you
can do, or you know, they're not gonna get help
until they're ready. But we can create an environment that
(33:44):
will support change versus that will shut down change.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (33:51):
And so we really work with families to get them
out of the blaming, the shaming, the you know others
like dehumanizing their loved ones and creating this recovery orient
in an environment. And we think that recovery is for
both the family member and the loved one, and again
for the family that doesn't it could mean going.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
To an Alana meeting.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
We have our own support groups that we offer, but
it also could mean holistically, I'm going to incorporate things
into my life that will give me a greater sense
of well being so that all of my eggs aren't
in the basket of getting my loved one well.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Absolutely, and taking care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I think what you just I want to end in
just a moment here about what you said just completely
was like an aha moment for me when because you
do spend so much time going well, you can't force
someone to get help, you can't make them do this.
But when you just said, but you can create environments
where people want to heal or begin that healing. That
is something brand new to me and something I haven't
(34:57):
heard and I love. And so I hope that struck
a chord with you guys listening as well, because I
hope that gives you some hope. And that's what we
want to give to people, is hope. And So if
you wanted to talk to Pam Landhart or any of
the people she works with, if they wanted to get
in touch with you, they wanted to, you know, start
making those healing steps, and they're in their household, what
(35:19):
would you where would you say to contact?
Speaker 5 (35:21):
Yeah, so our website is Thrive th h R I
V E f R R dot org. We have a
warm line that they can call.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Tell us about a warm line because I also just
heard about these.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Yeah, so we have a uh, it's kind of a
helpline for a family member. If they're really in a
bad spot and they need some immediate assistance and guidance,
they can just color numbers, somebody's going to answer the phone,
and we can help with just some immediate like first
of all, like let's get the family member regulated because
(35:56):
they're usually pretty activated and in crisis.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
And then what do you need?
Speaker 5 (36:01):
How can we support you and help them sort of
sort through their next steps. And then in Minnesota, we
also have free what we call one on one family
coaching services or family.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Peer services, so they can call us and we have staff.
Speaker 5 (36:21):
That will help guide them individually, sort of like in
recovery there's a sober coach or a recovery coach.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
We're that entity for family members.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Wow, that's amazing. Well what you do is so needed,
And thank you so much, Pam for the work that
you do, because coming from someone who is in it,
I know that my family values it so much and
that I do as well. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
Yeah, Carly, thank you for inviting me, And congratulations on
your recovery too tonight. I just love that you're speaking
out about this to a broader audience because.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
We you know, we have to talk about these things.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, I think that the more we talk about it,
I'm realizing when I shared my story and I got
some feedback, you realize how many people are going through
it on varying levels. Right, nobody's one story is the same.
But my hope with this podcast with here we Go
is that we create a community that's there for each other,
that can lean on each other and support each other,
(37:21):
provide these resources and start building something to make our
lives a little bit better. So, yes, thank you so
much for the work you do, and everyone, thank you
so much for listening to Here we Go. Please go
to here we Go podcast dot com for more information
and we will have information on there for you and
any loved ones that might need it and all the
latest of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Thanks for listening. I'm krly Zucker and Here we Go.
Speaker 5 (37:50):
Down.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
Don't wanna be don't wanna be lost, don't wanna be down,
don't wanna.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Be loudly in the crowd, don't want to darkness to
come back find me.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
I don't want to be happy me
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