December 5, 2024 • 25 mins
Dr. Jennifer Exo joins Carly for this week’s episode. Dr. Exo is the Associate Medical Director Hazelden Betty Ford Center for Teens, Young Adults and Families. One of the top questions Carly receives is: How do I talk to my kids about mental health and/or addiction? This episode provides the answers!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Carly Zucker, and welcome to another episode of Here
We Go. We're talking everything from mental health, to addiction,
to relationships and so much more. As always, I want
to thank you guys for taking the time to listen
to the podcast, because there are a gazillion podcasts out there,
and for you to take the time to listen to
(00:20):
this one and hopefully gain something from it and connection
and know you're not alone in the struggles that we
have and they vary so much.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Those struggles.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Man, it doesn't have to be, you know, something traumatic
as a death.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It could be anything that happens in your life.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
And if it affects you, then you're in the right
place to find connection and support and so.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
We are here for you.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
We have a really great episode today because this is
a question I've received over and over. When I did
the Ask Me Anythings, I went and spoke at Bautaire
Brett Blakemore, who's producing as always. I went and spoke
at bill Taire, which was the first treatment center I
went to, and one of the number one questions I
received from people.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Were was.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I have kids, how do I tell them where mom
is or dad is, or how do I explain to
them my addiction and what I'm going through without it
being scary.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
How do we, you know, make this something that and
not like normal.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I don't know if normalize it is the right word,
but you know what I mean, like, make this a
topic in our household so that we're taking away that stigma.
And so that was the number one question I was
getting all over the place, and.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So we found an expert in the field.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Doctor Jennifer XO is the associate medical director at Hazelden
betty Ford Center for Teens, Young Young Adults and Families,
and she is joining us in studio today.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Hi Jennifer, Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Should I do I call you doctor XO? Oh gosh no,
I feel like that's a what's Marv? Like a Marvel character?
Like you sound like a superhero doctor XO.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, doesn't it? Brett? Yes, Yeah, yeah, straight out of
a comic Straight out of a comic book. It sounds
so cool.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
So I'm like, if you walked in the door, You're like,
I'm doctor XO and I'm gonna heal you.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Like that's what that's in my mind. What happens? Yeah,
And just an fy for everybody out there.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I am, I've got the Minnesota cold that everybody has
going around. So we just got to deal with it.
We just power through, We just keep going. But Jennifer, so, yeah,
so we're going with Jennifer. Okay, you're you're specializing in
this world of teens, young adults, of families. This is
(02:43):
when we found you. I was like, this is the
person I need to talk to. So I want to
start out. We're going to get to all the questions.
But how did you get into the field and what
drew you to this work? Because this is emotional work.
It's it's heavy work, but I bet it's very We're
I don't want to speak for you, so maybe just
walk us through what drew you to it, what you
(03:04):
do love about it?
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah. So I'm originally trained as a pediatrician. Oh okay,
so completed a residency in pediatrics and then actually I
did training in critical care, pediatric critical care. So I
was taking care of incredibly ill children in the ICU,
seeing a lot of death and disease and broken hearts,
broken families, and it wasn't I wasn't too afraid to
(03:30):
talk about it then, but I got burned out essentially,
and I thought back to what did I love the
most about medicine, and I realized it was really a
population of patients, and it was really like the adolescents
and emerging adults, which is not a typical pediatric focus.
A lot of times were much more focused on like
the little babies, yeah, right, and a few kids getting
(03:52):
vaccines and stuff. But I really admire how hard they
have to to make that transition from childhood to adulthood,
especially now with all the challenges that they're facing. So
I went and worked in Kansas City in a sexual
and reproductive health clinic for teens and saw a lot
(04:15):
of need in terms of mental health and substance use treatment,
not just the kids themselves, but also living in a
household where family members were struggling with addiction. And then
had an amazing opportunity to translate my love of caring
for this population to kids who were specifically struggling themselves
(04:38):
with substance use disorder. So I talked with doctor Joe Lee,
who is actually now our CEO. He's a Child Allison
psychiatrist who specializes in addiction, and he recruited me up
here to Minnesota, and I've been working at the Plymouth location,
which is our youth and Emerging Adult facility, for the
last five years, and it really fills my heart more,
(05:00):
I think than any other job I've had. I think
because it is all about connection, right.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
And we are missing that so much in this world.
Deep connection. Yeah, I'm because what I hear a lot
from people I talked to in treatment centers or friends
is that that loneliness that we're I just I'm lonely.
I'm that loneliness and even if you're surrounded by people,
sometimes you just feel that heavy loneliness. Are you seeing
(05:29):
that in our young people right now?
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Absolutely? When I talk to kids about what are triggers
for your use, I would say boredom and loneliness are
the two most common things that I hear. And it
was especially bad during the pandemic, understandably because kids were
stuck at home and a lot of times they were
alone because you know, parents still needed to work, right,
(05:53):
so they had kind of unsupervised time where no one
was checking in with them, and then the world was
just so horribly stressed again understandably that I feel like
this generation kind of got lost, right, and they didn't
learn how to have normal face to face interactions. I
even see that in my own kid, right, who's she's
going to be ten in February, Where we just didn't
(06:14):
learn how to interact with other people in a way
that was healthy, right, because we didn't practice, We didn't
have kindergarten normal way, we didn't have first grade the
normal way. And so also with social media on top
of it, and the ability to sort of feel connected
but not really.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
It's not it's not the connection you need, no, but
it fills almost this It feels like it feels a
temporary whole, yes, but it's not the real connection. Yeah,
because that was a big one for me too, Like
just I would isolate with my addiction and that was
that was a really big.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
One for me.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
And the loneliness is a lot of times what would
cripple me and then lead me to you know, the.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Next wrong move.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So when people, so you also deal with families as
a whole. And again going back to my question of
if you're a parent with addiction and you are trying
to make you know, there's a couple pieces of this, right,
So one of the big questions I have is and
this can be like, I want you to be very
(07:22):
honest in how what.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
It can do to kids active addiction in a household?
What can that do to kids?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
And then also the other side of this is if
you are in recovery and maintain recovery, what does that
look like for kids? So those are two very different
things with very different effects on our children. So maybe
if you wouldn't mind starting and I know there's probably
endless things that you could list and talk about, but
maybe just in your experience some of the things that
(07:54):
highlight you could highlight when there's active addiction in a
house And I know it varies from you know, anger
and abuse like there to neglect. I understand that, but
maybe affects on children, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
If that makes sense, yes, absolutely, And I think you
bring up a good point, which is that there's a spectrum,
but ultimately the point is that it affects the children, yep.
And we need to accept that and figure out how
to kind of mitigate some of that, right, And we'll
talk about that when we talk about talking about addiction
with children. But certainly, you know, on the far end
(08:29):
of the spectrum, like the horrible end of the spectrum,
would be you know, they're at much higher risk of
witnessing domestic violence, being a victim of domestic violence, of
being emotionally abused, of being you know, physically abused, whether
it's by the parent with the addiction or you know,
a toxic person they bring into the house. They are
(08:52):
higher risk for developing mental health issues, right, so depression, anxiety.
There are eight times is likely to develop their own
self since use disorder, which is crazy how high that
number is. They often struggle in school. They have difficulty
developing healthy relationships because they didn't have that modeled for them.
(09:13):
They have difficulty communicating effectively and setting boundaries and stating
their needs because again none of that was modeled for them.
And it's really hard to learn to trust, oh man,
because it is a house of cards, right, It's all
about secrecy and lying and recovering it up. And it's
(09:37):
not just the kids maybe doing that on behalf of
the parents. It's often the whole family pretending that nothing's wrong,
and kids, being incredible observers of human kind, pick that
up and they're like, well, that doesn't make sense, and
they recognize there's a lot of shame and fear and
guilt around that and they internalize that. And for a
lot of kids, the only way they can explain it
(09:58):
because nobody's talking about it is to think it must
have something to do with me.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, right, and they will what I have understood through
my education, and you can correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
But that kids will create their own narrative.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
They will create their own story if you don't provide
them the education and the information.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
And I've said that.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
I think on every single podcast, like I'm just kind of,
you know, hitting it hard with everybody because that is
one thing now that I am in recovery, and you know,
I go day by day, but the idea that I
need to give my kids education and what does that
look like, especially when you're talking about different ages, because
(10:42):
my conversations with my fourteen year old are very different
than my conversations with my six year old. And I
found that, you know, my fourteen year old has been
around places there's drinking.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
She's called me and said, pick me up. They just
started drinking.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
But I do believe.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
It's because of conversation we've had, and that feels like
such a blessing right now, you know, I'm not saying
that that's going to be forever, but I'm loving that
we have that relationship right now and she feels very
safe to call me and talk about it. But our
conversations look different. So going into that question, how do
(11:21):
you approach these topics with your kids, especially when you're
they're in your household, so that there's not fear around it,
so that they can trust you, so that you are
taking kind of that stigma, and you're like, this is
part of our world, but it doesn't have to mean
that it's a bad world or you know, this horrible place,
(11:42):
And so how do you suggest talking to kids?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I think it's a great question. And even before I
answer that question, I think the fact that people in
recovery are asking that question themselves is so incredibly healthy
and optimistic because the pretending is over right, Like they
see the impact that their substance use disorder has had
on themselves and on their families, and they're like, I've
(12:08):
learned that not talking about it gets me go in
the wrong direction, and talking about it is the most important.
But again, like you're mentioning like fourteen versus sixteen year old,
there's obviously maybe more details you would give to a
fourteen year old versus a six year old, And I
think you know, you obviously want to approach it in
a developmentally appropriate way, like maybe you wouldn't necessarily talk
(12:30):
about like going to parties and getting wasted right with
six year old? Right, right, but you know, saying unless
that six year old's super cool an aarity party, just kid,
totally Katie.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
We joke a lot on here, We're Katie ky.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, there's a big difference in what
you discuss. So when you're approaching let's say, I don't
know if you break it into ages in your line
of work.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
But that younger age, how do you suggest approaching it?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
So I think there's really kind of four elements I
think that are important parts of the conversation. And actually
the National Association for Children of Addiction has amazing resources
that can help parents begin to have these conversations, whether
they themselves have substance use disorder, their partner, or someone
else in the family. But starting it off, and you
(13:20):
can do this even at a young age, is to say,
you know, addiction is a disease, right, It does not
make mom or dad or whoever a bad person. They're ill, right,
and so that is part of why maybe some of
their behavior seems strange or scary, and it's incredibly complex.
(13:41):
But this has nothing to do with them not loving you.
And you didn't cause this, yeah right, so kind of
that would be the first thing I would say, and
then hammering home repeatedly, you know this is you didn't
cause this. You can curate, you can't control it, like
(14:03):
all those things that we learned, like as family members
of people with substance use disorders. The most important thing
is that you take care of yourself, and part of
taking care of yourself is talking about it. So the
third thing would be it's okay to talk about it,
yeah right, Like it's important to talk about it, and
to give that child whatever space, Like a lot of
times preteens and teens are understandably resentful and angry, so
(14:27):
giving them the space to have that, you know, saying
to a younger kid, I wonder if it feels really scary,
you know when you see mom acting like that, or
she disappeared for ninety days.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, you know, like what was that like for you? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
That was my biggest fear coming out of treatment, of course,
was what have I done to my kids? Was kept
what I kept thinking, you know mom. And the other
tough thing was I left pretty quickly because it became
a crisis situation where I went to mpath at if.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
You know that.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yes, I'm such a champion for all these like crisis
and the hazeled in and bower. I'm like, use them
if you need them. But mine was pretty crisis. So
I don't want to I hate to say the word disappeared,
but Mom disappeared pretty quickly. And so the guilt and
the shame of that, And that's why I hang on
(15:23):
to my recovery so hard and I protect it so
hard is because I know what I know my accountability
in this, and I want to maintain.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
This healthy person because I've.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Done the damage and all I can do now is
move forward, and so I protect this recovery.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
It's number one, you know it is.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
But I also want to talk about the flip side
of this, that when you're in recovery, how that can
change families too, because a lot of times we hear
it is generational. There's generational trauma, there's addiction in families.
You know a lot of times there's history of it
in families, So if you're in recovery, you can open
(16:14):
these conversations. I think it for me at least, it's
turned into something really beautiful also and strengthened relationships, changed relationships.
So on the flip side, I guess, how could it
be kind of a beautiful thing in the home.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I think I think you bring up such a good
point because I think it is such an enormous gift
as a parent in recovery to share that with your kids,
because a lot of recovery is about learning or relearning
skills you're going to need for the rest of your life, right,
So like honesty, radical accountability, you know, setting boundaries, coping
(16:56):
in distress tolerance, like these are things that our kids
need and are going to need as adults. And having
a parent who can model them and say, hey, you
know what my distress tolerance I'm about out of my
window right now and feeling really frustrated. Helping children have
language around that I think is so incredibly important in
(17:18):
such a beautiful gift, and hearing a parent talk about
this is where I was when I was your age,
and this is kind of how things went in a
direction that I didn't want them to go, and it
was scary and it was hard, and I don't ever
want to go back there. But there's a message of
hope at the end, right, which is that you can
(17:40):
I'm where I'm at now.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I love that you just said that, because I with
my fourteen year old have a lot of honest conversation
about I drink. I was drinking when I was fourteen
to blackout points already, and I actually find that that's
a very similar age to a lot of people in
in recovery. I don't know if you hear that like
that very young age, yep. But so I tell her
(18:07):
this is when I started, and it was it led
me down a very unhealthy path, you know, and these
are the reasons why, and these are the ways it
negatively affected me. So I always say, the longer you
can wait, maybe you will choose not to. I have
a great person in my life right now who's never
drink in forty three years. I know that never picked
(18:31):
up a drink in forty three years. Wow, I'm like,
you're the coolest person I've ever met. But you know,
kind of but not seeing you can never drink or
don't not making it like if you you're gonna, you.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Know, be grounded for three months.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
If I find it's more of this trying to provide
support and education.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yes, yeah, yes, And I think you play the tape
ForWord for them, yeah right, like you say, okay, well
you could make the decision, but if you play the
tape forward, this is sort of where you're gonna go
and setting boundaries for your kids. Like, I'm still the parent,
right and I'm still my expectation is that you're not
drinking at fourteene yep, because we know kids growing up
in families where those expectations are set are less likely
(19:11):
to do those kind of things. Yep. Right, So just
even having the conversation and saying I love you, but
this this is not okay.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
There are rules for a reason. There's loss for a reason, absolutely,
and they are in our household when it comes to
the older kids and involving them a little bit more
in those conversations. Do you have boundaries and guidelines for what.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Is too much to share?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
That's a great question. I think a lot of times
it depends on what your relationship with your older kid is. Like, certainly,
don't you wouldn't want to overwhelm them, and you don't
want to make the conversation more about you than it
is about them, because you're approaching the conversation with I
am wanting to share this with you because I want
(19:57):
to help you. I want to help you understand. I
want to help you grow, as opposed to I'm making
you my therapist. And so I'm gonna, you know, share
all this stuff that maybe isn't helpful for you and
is actually more distressing.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
That I'm That is a key piece of information.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I'm glad you just shared.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Is not making them your therapist and making it about them.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Oh that's a great that's a great piece. I mean
if we just had that first time, I'd be pomped.
So that is amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Oh this is such an important conversation and I'm so
thankful we're having it. I want to transition into maybe
parents are seeing this in their children. You know, maybe
it's not the parent with the addiction or the mental health,
but if you're seeing signs in your children, what can
(20:49):
we do to help them?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
So that's it. It's an amazing question and an important question.
I think the fact that you say, what are we
going to do about it? First? Of all is the
most important thing, because ignoring it is absolutely not going
to be helpful, you know, And so having a conversation
with your kids, So giving them a safe place to
kind of talk is I would say, one of the
most important things that you could do. And so you
(21:13):
want it to be you know, in a place at
a time where they're you know, if they're feeling stressed
or just regulated, they can do that in a way
that's not going to necessarily interfere with the rest of
their day. And then offering them like what would be
helpful for you? There are groups like alateine, there are
family programs for kids who are maybe at risk or
(21:37):
around like family members that are struggling with addiction. Would
meeting with a therapist be a helpful thing? Is there
someone we should talk to about medication? But I think
initially having the conversation and saying what do you think
would be helpful right now is one of the more
important things, because no kid, when you're like, okay, I
(21:58):
got your smoking for the fifth time, we're going to
the doctor. Yeah, right, like that, probably that's the right outcome,
is to seek help for your child, But maybe not,
you know, it doesn't feel like you've partnered with them.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yes, have that they need to know they have love
and support. Yes, First and foremost, I think that I
am here to help you through this and guide you
through this, and we're going to become healthy together and
you and instead of feeling like we're enemies.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Are we're separate in this? Yes? Is what I would
think without being an expert on it.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
No, absolutely, And I think you know, even just parents,
especially if they don't have their own experiences with substance,
use learning more themselves about what is a substance used
to sort of look like you know, So this very
antiquated idea of like this is about willpower, will just stop? Right?
That is completely unhelpful for everybody and frankly harmful, and
(22:54):
I would say in particular for your kid. Right. So
having a basic understanding of addiction and then how you
can help your kid through it, I think is also
incredibly important because ideally you would use this as a
way to both grow into better people. Ye. Right.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I have loved this conversation.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I think we've touched on so much of the what
to do and also the what can be harmful, which
I think is really important to share Lastly, I just
want to ask you, are there any resources you did
mention the one if I don't know, if there's books,
if there's any other places that you want to direct
people if they're looking for more information.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
Yeah, so I think there are a couple of things,
and a few of them are even like developmental specific.
But there was a therapist named Jerry Moo who was
the director of our children's program. He's an emeritis director
now and he is part of the National Association for
Children of Addiction. Okay, that website has tons of resources,
(23:56):
so like webinars, even just like written things that families
can use, there's numbers to call to find like local support.
They paired actually with Sesame Street to create a storyline
where a young character has a mom who's struggling the
substance use disorder. And so even using that as a
(24:18):
way to begin the conversation or to model the conversation
for yourself, how do I have this conversation with my
six year old? Right? And then you know, certainly I
think Minnesota is special in that there are a lot
of people who are focused on this issue and creating
a supportive community. So going to something like the Hazel
(24:42):
and Betty Ford Foundation website and looking at what they
have to offer for families and what they have to
offer for your child in terms of help assessing for
and then treating a substance use disorder. But even if
you just google, like how do I talk to my
child about addition? Right, the CDC has some great resources.
(25:05):
So I think there's a lot of really good information
out there.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, and hope and and hopefully you're listening and this
will be also a resource for you. Well, Doctor Jennifer
XO our superhero, truly you are. You are one of
our superheroes, helping families that need it, helping teens, helping kids,
and I just I can't thank you enough for the
work you do because I've lived it and it has
(25:29):
is such a big piece of who I am now,
and so I thank you so much for.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
The work you know.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Thank you, and we will hopefully have you back on
to talk more. But I hope you enjoyed your time
on the podcast I did. That's it for Here we
go this week's episode again, they drop every Thursday. Thank
you to Brett Blake Moore for producing, and.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
We will talk soon. Here we go, guys,
I'm Carly Zucker, and welcome to another episode of Here
We Go. We're talking everything from mental health, to addiction,
to relationships and so much more. As always, I want
to thank you guys for taking the time to listen
to the podcast, because there are a gazillion podcasts out there,
and for you to take the time to listen to
(00:20):
this one and hopefully gain something from it and connection
and know you're not alone in the struggles that we
have and they vary so much.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Those struggles.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Man, it doesn't have to be, you know, something traumatic
as a death.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It could be anything that happens in your life.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
And if it affects you, then you're in the right
place to find connection and support and so.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
We are here for you.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
We have a really great episode today because this is
a question I've received over and over. When I did
the Ask Me Anythings, I went and spoke at Bautaire
Brett Blakemore, who's producing as always. I went and spoke
at bill Taire, which was the first treatment center I
went to, and one of the number one questions I
received from people.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Were was.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I have kids, how do I tell them where mom
is or dad is, or how do I explain to
them my addiction and what I'm going through without it
being scary.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
How do we, you know, make this something that and
not like normal.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I don't know if normalize it is the right word,
but you know what I mean, like, make this a
topic in our household so that we're taking away that stigma.
And so that was the number one question I was
getting all over the place, and.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So we found an expert in the field.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Doctor Jennifer XO is the associate medical director at Hazelden
betty Ford Center for Teens, Young Young Adults and Families,
and she is joining us in studio today.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Hi Jennifer, Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Should I do I call you doctor XO? Oh gosh no,
I feel like that's a what's Marv? Like a Marvel character?
Like you sound like a superhero doctor XO.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, doesn't it? Brett? Yes, Yeah, yeah, straight out of
a comic Straight out of a comic book. It sounds
so cool.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
So I'm like, if you walked in the door, You're like,
I'm doctor XO and I'm gonna heal you.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Like that's what that's in my mind. What happens? Yeah,
And just an fy for everybody out there.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I am, I've got the Minnesota cold that everybody has
going around. So we just got to deal with it.
We just power through, We just keep going. But Jennifer, so, yeah,
so we're going with Jennifer. Okay, you're you're specializing in
this world of teens, young adults, of families. This is
(02:43):
when we found you. I was like, this is the
person I need to talk to. So I want to
start out. We're going to get to all the questions.
But how did you get into the field and what
drew you to this work? Because this is emotional work.
It's it's heavy work, but I bet it's very We're
I don't want to speak for you, so maybe just
walk us through what drew you to it, what you
(03:04):
do love about it?
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah. So I'm originally trained as a pediatrician. Oh okay,
so completed a residency in pediatrics and then actually I
did training in critical care, pediatric critical care. So I
was taking care of incredibly ill children in the ICU,
seeing a lot of death and disease and broken hearts,
broken families, and it wasn't I wasn't too afraid to
(03:30):
talk about it then, but I got burned out essentially,
and I thought back to what did I love the
most about medicine, and I realized it was really a
population of patients, and it was really like the adolescents
and emerging adults, which is not a typical pediatric focus.
A lot of times were much more focused on like
the little babies, yeah, right, and a few kids getting
(03:52):
vaccines and stuff. But I really admire how hard they
have to to make that transition from childhood to adulthood,
especially now with all the challenges that they're facing. So
I went and worked in Kansas City in a sexual
and reproductive health clinic for teens and saw a lot
(04:15):
of need in terms of mental health and substance use treatment,
not just the kids themselves, but also living in a
household where family members were struggling with addiction. And then
had an amazing opportunity to translate my love of caring
for this population to kids who were specifically struggling themselves
(04:38):
with substance use disorder. So I talked with doctor Joe Lee,
who is actually now our CEO. He's a Child Allison
psychiatrist who specializes in addiction, and he recruited me up
here to Minnesota, and I've been working at the Plymouth location,
which is our youth and Emerging Adult facility, for the
last five years, and it really fills my heart more,
(05:00):
I think than any other job I've had. I think
because it is all about connection, right.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
And we are missing that so much in this world.
Deep connection. Yeah, I'm because what I hear a lot
from people I talked to in treatment centers or friends
is that that loneliness that we're I just I'm lonely.
I'm that loneliness and even if you're surrounded by people,
sometimes you just feel that heavy loneliness. Are you seeing
(05:29):
that in our young people right now?
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Absolutely? When I talk to kids about what are triggers
for your use, I would say boredom and loneliness are
the two most common things that I hear. And it
was especially bad during the pandemic, understandably because kids were
stuck at home and a lot of times they were
alone because you know, parents still needed to work, right,
(05:53):
so they had kind of unsupervised time where no one
was checking in with them, and then the world was
just so horribly stressed again understandably that I feel like
this generation kind of got lost, right, and they didn't
learn how to have normal face to face interactions. I
even see that in my own kid, right, who's she's
going to be ten in February, Where we just didn't
(06:14):
learn how to interact with other people in a way
that was healthy, right, because we didn't practice, We didn't
have kindergarten normal way, we didn't have first grade the
normal way. And so also with social media on top
of it, and the ability to sort of feel connected
but not really.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
It's not it's not the connection you need, no, but
it fills almost this It feels like it feels a
temporary whole, yes, but it's not the real connection. Yeah,
because that was a big one for me too, Like
just I would isolate with my addiction and that was
that was a really big.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
One for me.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
And the loneliness is a lot of times what would
cripple me and then lead me to you know, the.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Next wrong move.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So when people, so you also deal with families as
a whole. And again going back to my question of
if you're a parent with addiction and you are trying
to make you know, there's a couple pieces of this, right,
So one of the big questions I have is and
this can be like, I want you to be very
(07:22):
honest in how what.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
It can do to kids active addiction in a household?
What can that do to kids?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
And then also the other side of this is if
you are in recovery and maintain recovery, what does that
look like for kids? So those are two very different
things with very different effects on our children. So maybe
if you wouldn't mind starting and I know there's probably
endless things that you could list and talk about, but
maybe just in your experience some of the things that
(07:54):
highlight you could highlight when there's active addiction in a
house And I know it varies from you know, anger
and abuse like there to neglect. I understand that, but
maybe affects on children, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
If that makes sense, yes, absolutely, And I think you
bring up a good point, which is that there's a spectrum,
but ultimately the point is that it affects the children, yep.
And we need to accept that and figure out how
to kind of mitigate some of that, right, And we'll
talk about that when we talk about talking about addiction
with children. But certainly, you know, on the far end
(08:29):
of the spectrum, like the horrible end of the spectrum,
would be you know, they're at much higher risk of
witnessing domestic violence, being a victim of domestic violence, of
being emotionally abused, of being you know, physically abused, whether
it's by the parent with the addiction or you know,
a toxic person they bring into the house. They are
(08:52):
higher risk for developing mental health issues, right, so depression, anxiety.
There are eight times is likely to develop their own
self since use disorder, which is crazy how high that
number is. They often struggle in school. They have difficulty
developing healthy relationships because they didn't have that modeled for them.
(09:13):
They have difficulty communicating effectively and setting boundaries and stating
their needs because again none of that was modeled for them.
And it's really hard to learn to trust, oh man,
because it is a house of cards, right, It's all
about secrecy and lying and recovering it up. And it's
(09:37):
not just the kids maybe doing that on behalf of
the parents. It's often the whole family pretending that nothing's wrong,
and kids, being incredible observers of human kind, pick that
up and they're like, well, that doesn't make sense, and
they recognize there's a lot of shame and fear and
guilt around that and they internalize that. And for a
lot of kids, the only way they can explain it
(09:58):
because nobody's talking about it is to think it must
have something to do with me.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, right, and they will what I have understood through
my education, and you can correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
But that kids will create their own narrative.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
They will create their own story if you don't provide
them the education and the information.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
And I've said that.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
I think on every single podcast, like I'm just kind of,
you know, hitting it hard with everybody because that is
one thing now that I am in recovery, and you know,
I go day by day, but the idea that I
need to give my kids education and what does that
look like, especially when you're talking about different ages, because
(10:42):
my conversations with my fourteen year old are very different
than my conversations with my six year old. And I
found that, you know, my fourteen year old has been
around places there's drinking.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
She's called me and said, pick me up. They just
started drinking.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
But I do believe.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
It's because of conversation we've had, and that feels like
such a blessing right now, you know, I'm not saying
that that's going to be forever, but I'm loving that
we have that relationship right now and she feels very
safe to call me and talk about it. But our
conversations look different. So going into that question, how do
(11:21):
you approach these topics with your kids, especially when you're
they're in your household, so that there's not fear around it,
so that they can trust you, so that you are
taking kind of that stigma, and you're like, this is
part of our world, but it doesn't have to mean
that it's a bad world or you know, this horrible place,
(11:42):
And so how do you suggest talking to kids?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I think it's a great question. And even before I
answer that question, I think the fact that people in
recovery are asking that question themselves is so incredibly healthy
and optimistic because the pretending is over right, Like they
see the impact that their substance use disorder has had
on themselves and on their families, and they're like, I've
(12:08):
learned that not talking about it gets me go in
the wrong direction, and talking about it is the most important.
But again, like you're mentioning like fourteen versus sixteen year old,
there's obviously maybe more details you would give to a
fourteen year old versus a six year old, And I
think you know, you obviously want to approach it in
a developmentally appropriate way, like maybe you wouldn't necessarily talk
(12:30):
about like going to parties and getting wasted right with
six year old? Right, right, but you know, saying unless
that six year old's super cool an aarity party, just kid,
totally Katie.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
We joke a lot on here, We're Katie ky.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, there's a big difference in what
you discuss. So when you're approaching let's say, I don't
know if you break it into ages in your line
of work.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
But that younger age, how do you suggest approaching it?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
So I think there's really kind of four elements I
think that are important parts of the conversation. And actually
the National Association for Children of Addiction has amazing resources
that can help parents begin to have these conversations, whether
they themselves have substance use disorder, their partner, or someone
else in the family. But starting it off, and you
(13:20):
can do this even at a young age, is to say,
you know, addiction is a disease, right, It does not
make mom or dad or whoever a bad person. They're ill, right,
and so that is part of why maybe some of
their behavior seems strange or scary, and it's incredibly complex.
(13:41):
But this has nothing to do with them not loving you.
And you didn't cause this, yeah right, so kind of
that would be the first thing I would say, and
then hammering home repeatedly, you know this is you didn't
cause this. You can curate, you can't control it, like
(14:03):
all those things that we learned, like as family members
of people with substance use disorders. The most important thing
is that you take care of yourself, and part of
taking care of yourself is talking about it. So the
third thing would be it's okay to talk about it,
yeah right, Like it's important to talk about it, and
to give that child whatever space, Like a lot of
times preteens and teens are understandably resentful and angry, so
(14:27):
giving them the space to have that, you know, saying
to a younger kid, I wonder if it feels really scary,
you know when you see mom acting like that, or
she disappeared for ninety days.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, you know, like what was that like for you? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
That was my biggest fear coming out of treatment, of course,
was what have I done to my kids? Was kept
what I kept thinking, you know mom. And the other
tough thing was I left pretty quickly because it became
a crisis situation where I went to mpath at if.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
You know that.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yes, I'm such a champion for all these like crisis
and the hazeled in and bower. I'm like, use them
if you need them. But mine was pretty crisis. So
I don't want to I hate to say the word disappeared,
but Mom disappeared pretty quickly. And so the guilt and
the shame of that, And that's why I hang on
(15:23):
to my recovery so hard and I protect it so
hard is because I know what I know my accountability
in this, and I want to maintain.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
This healthy person because I've.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Done the damage and all I can do now is
move forward, and so I protect this recovery.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
It's number one, you know it is.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
But I also want to talk about the flip side
of this, that when you're in recovery, how that can
change families too, because a lot of times we hear
it is generational. There's generational trauma, there's addiction in families.
You know a lot of times there's history of it
in families, So if you're in recovery, you can open
(16:14):
these conversations. I think it for me at least, it's
turned into something really beautiful also and strengthened relationships, changed relationships.
So on the flip side, I guess, how could it
be kind of a beautiful thing in the home.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I think I think you bring up such a good
point because I think it is such an enormous gift
as a parent in recovery to share that with your kids,
because a lot of recovery is about learning or relearning
skills you're going to need for the rest of your life, right,
So like honesty, radical accountability, you know, setting boundaries, coping
(16:56):
in distress tolerance, like these are things that our kids
need and are going to need as adults. And having
a parent who can model them and say, hey, you
know what my distress tolerance I'm about out of my
window right now and feeling really frustrated. Helping children have
language around that I think is so incredibly important in
(17:18):
such a beautiful gift, and hearing a parent talk about
this is where I was when I was your age,
and this is kind of how things went in a
direction that I didn't want them to go, and it
was scary and it was hard, and I don't ever
want to go back there. But there's a message of
hope at the end, right, which is that you can
(17:40):
I'm where I'm at now.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I love that you just said that, because I with
my fourteen year old have a lot of honest conversation
about I drink. I was drinking when I was fourteen
to blackout points already, and I actually find that that's
a very similar age to a lot of people in
in recovery. I don't know if you hear that like
that very young age, yep. But so I tell her
(18:07):
this is when I started, and it was it led
me down a very unhealthy path, you know, and these
are the reasons why, and these are the ways it
negatively affected me. So I always say, the longer you
can wait, maybe you will choose not to. I have
a great person in my life right now who's never
drink in forty three years. I know that never picked
(18:31):
up a drink in forty three years. Wow, I'm like,
you're the coolest person I've ever met. But you know,
kind of but not seeing you can never drink or
don't not making it like if you you're gonna, you.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Know, be grounded for three months.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
If I find it's more of this trying to provide
support and education.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yes, yeah, yes, And I think you play the tape
ForWord for them, yeah right, like you say, okay, well
you could make the decision, but if you play the
tape forward, this is sort of where you're gonna go
and setting boundaries for your kids. Like, I'm still the parent,
right and I'm still my expectation is that you're not
drinking at fourteene yep, because we know kids growing up
in families where those expectations are set are less likely
(19:11):
to do those kind of things. Yep. Right, So just
even having the conversation and saying I love you, but
this this is not okay.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
There are rules for a reason. There's loss for a reason, absolutely,
and they are in our household when it comes to
the older kids and involving them a little bit more
in those conversations. Do you have boundaries and guidelines for what.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Is too much to share?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
That's a great question. I think a lot of times
it depends on what your relationship with your older kid is. Like, certainly,
don't you wouldn't want to overwhelm them, and you don't
want to make the conversation more about you than it
is about them, because you're approaching the conversation with I
am wanting to share this with you because I want
(19:57):
to help you. I want to help you understand. I
want to help you grow, as opposed to I'm making
you my therapist. And so I'm gonna, you know, share
all this stuff that maybe isn't helpful for you and
is actually more distressing.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
That I'm That is a key piece of information.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I'm glad you just shared.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Is not making them your therapist and making it about them.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Oh that's a great that's a great piece. I mean
if we just had that first time, I'd be pomped.
So that is amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Oh this is such an important conversation and I'm so
thankful we're having it. I want to transition into maybe
parents are seeing this in their children. You know, maybe
it's not the parent with the addiction or the mental health,
but if you're seeing signs in your children, what can
(20:49):
we do to help them?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
So that's it. It's an amazing question and an important question.
I think the fact that you say, what are we
going to do about it? First? Of all is the
most important thing, because ignoring it is absolutely not going
to be helpful, you know, And so having a conversation
with your kids, So giving them a safe place to
kind of talk is I would say, one of the
most important things that you could do. And so you
(21:13):
want it to be you know, in a place at
a time where they're you know, if they're feeling stressed
or just regulated, they can do that in a way
that's not going to necessarily interfere with the rest of
their day. And then offering them like what would be
helpful for you? There are groups like alateine, there are
family programs for kids who are maybe at risk or
(21:37):
around like family members that are struggling with addiction. Would
meeting with a therapist be a helpful thing? Is there
someone we should talk to about medication? But I think
initially having the conversation and saying what do you think
would be helpful right now is one of the more
important things, because no kid, when you're like, okay, I
(21:58):
got your smoking for the fifth time, we're going to
the doctor. Yeah, right, like that, probably that's the right outcome,
is to seek help for your child, But maybe not,
you know, it doesn't feel like you've partnered with them.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yes, have that they need to know they have love
and support. Yes, First and foremost, I think that I
am here to help you through this and guide you
through this, and we're going to become healthy together and
you and instead of feeling like we're enemies.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Are we're separate in this? Yes? Is what I would
think without being an expert on it.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
No, absolutely, And I think you know, even just parents,
especially if they don't have their own experiences with substance,
use learning more themselves about what is a substance used
to sort of look like you know, So this very
antiquated idea of like this is about willpower, will just stop? Right?
That is completely unhelpful for everybody and frankly harmful, and
(22:54):
I would say in particular for your kid. Right. So
having a basic understanding of addiction and then how you
can help your kid through it, I think is also
incredibly important because ideally you would use this as a
way to both grow into better people. Ye. Right.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I have loved this conversation.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I think we've touched on so much of the what
to do and also the what can be harmful, which
I think is really important to share Lastly, I just
want to ask you, are there any resources you did
mention the one if I don't know, if there's books,
if there's any other places that you want to direct
people if they're looking for more information.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
Yeah, so I think there are a couple of things,
and a few of them are even like developmental specific.
But there was a therapist named Jerry Moo who was
the director of our children's program. He's an emeritis director
now and he is part of the National Association for
Children of Addiction. Okay, that website has tons of resources,
(23:56):
so like webinars, even just like written things that families
can use, there's numbers to call to find like local support.
They paired actually with Sesame Street to create a storyline
where a young character has a mom who's struggling the
substance use disorder. And so even using that as a
(24:18):
way to begin the conversation or to model the conversation
for yourself, how do I have this conversation with my
six year old? Right? And then you know, certainly I
think Minnesota is special in that there are a lot
of people who are focused on this issue and creating
a supportive community. So going to something like the Hazel
(24:42):
and Betty Ford Foundation website and looking at what they
have to offer for families and what they have to
offer for your child in terms of help assessing for
and then treating a substance use disorder. But even if
you just google, like how do I talk to my
child about addition? Right, the CDC has some great resources.
(25:05):
So I think there's a lot of really good information
out there.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, and hope and and hopefully you're listening and this
will be also a resource for you. Well, Doctor Jennifer
XO our superhero, truly you are. You are one of
our superheroes, helping families that need it, helping teens, helping kids,
and I just I can't thank you enough for the
work you do because I've lived it and it has
(25:29):
is such a big piece of who I am now,
and so I thank you so much for.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
The work you know.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Thank you, and we will hopefully have you back on
to talk more. But I hope you enjoyed your time
on the podcast I did. That's it for Here we
go this week's episode again, they drop every Thursday. Thank
you to Brett Blake Moore for producing, and.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
We will talk soon. Here we go, guys,
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