Hops & Hogs BBQ 04/19/24 - Elm Creek Brewing Co

Champlin's finest, Elm Creek Brewing! Nordo and Ken roll up to Champlin to drink beers and chat with Elm Creek's owner/founder Mitch Carlson! Really cool story of a local guy building something awesome from the ground up.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Nordo from KFA and Radio here.Welcome to Hops and Hoggs Local Beer,
Local Barbecue, one podcast. Followus via x at Hops Hogs BBQ and
subscribe to the podcast on the freeiHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
This week, Ken from Heavy Rotationand I cruised up to Elm Creek
Brewing and Champlain to talk shop withthe owner and founder, Mitch Carlson.

(00:26):
Check it out. What are wedrinking? Ken? Yeah, So normally
we usually do something with Heavy Rotationright over in Brooklyn Park, but today
we made the long trip from BrooklynPark over to Champlain hanging out with our
friends at ELM Creek Brewing. AndI'm drinking the Barefoot Traveler. I believe
it's a pilsner, Absolutely delicious.I'm gonna have seven of them before i

(00:46):
leave. But that's what I'm sippingon. You guys are what are you
guys sipping on? Well, I'mand welcome. First of all, Mitch,
cheers for having us, Mitch ofELM Creek. It is brewing up
here at Champlain, and I'm drinkingthe Elm Creek Light for a couple of
reasons. Awesome flavor by the way, and this is definitely a crushable light
beer. Secondly, I'm trying tokeep my figure in check. As you

(01:07):
guys can tell, I don't wantto brag about being a fitness aholic,
sure, but the ability to enjoybeer and keep a light at the same
time. Mitch all jokes aside,thanks for having us. This is so
cool, beautiful property that you havehere. And eventually I do want to
get into some of the growth.I mean, it's it's a good problem,
but it's a problem nevertheless, dealingwith growth here at Elm Creek.

(01:30):
But I just want to start kindof at the baseline here, reading off
of the website, understanding through Kenand getting to know Elm Creek a bit
better. You know, at onepoint you didn't have this property. At
one point you just really liked beerand you had an idea about a business.
So I kind of want to startat the genesis. Mitch. How
did Elm Creek come to be ElmCreek Brewing? Well, I was I

(01:53):
was working for a company that didlike splicing for Verizon, and I I've
been doing that for like four orfive years and kind of reached my wits
end of like traveling on the road. I have a lot of like history
and like restaurants and everything, didsome home brewing, never really kind of
came to fruition or anything like that. So kind of reached a breaking point

(02:15):
called my dad and like we kindof started brainstorming about what we could do
to like open up another business.Yeah, and after about six months of
going back and forth, we kindof landed on trying to open up a
brewery. And Champlain it's my hometown. I've been here pretty much my whole
life outside of like traveling for workand everything. So finally about after three

(02:36):
months we decided, like, Okay, we're going to do this. I
was still working in Omaha and mydad was just kind of going through getting
like a bunch of stuff ready.And then finally in February twenty twenty,
right before COVID hit, I movedback to Minnesota, started on all of
our licensing and kind of the perfecttiming actually for starting a brewery, which
sounds kind of crazy. All thelicensing and stuff just flew by, like

(03:00):
all the inspectors. It didn't havea lot else going on, nothing sadly,
just waiting for somebody to open somethingup. So they could actually get
out of their house, come andinspect something that seem like It's an amazing
common theme here over the last coupleof weeks Ken where we were at a
barbecue spot out in handover last week, Big Board Barbecue and one of the
gentlemen that's that's on our part ofour podcast as well, Aaron from Northern

(03:22):
Fire Grilling and Barbecue Supply. It'sbeen a very common theme, these people
opening up five weeks before COVID,two and a half weeks before COVID.
You guys doing the lion's share ofprep work and getting your business open during
COVID and then in a lot ofways, whether it's the barbecue business in
which in some ways, if you'reif you're looking for something to do at

(03:45):
home and you can't go anywhere toeat without maybe sitting in the parking lot,
you buy a grill, right,So the barbecue business was kind of
a COVID boom. On the otherhand, from a brewery standpoint, you
know, early stages, what wasit like in the unknown where you're right,
some of those processes worked a lotfaster, but eventually you got to
open the doors and say welcome init was their trepidation on your part,

(04:05):
some apprehension or just you know,ink, maybe some anxiety of sorts about
what it was going to be likewhen you first put the open side up.
Yeah, kind of all the above. To be totally honest, it
was kind of weird because we openedup like four days before bars and restaurants
got though okay to open back up, so we kind of like we'd do
that, we'd open up and thenall of a sudden, shut you around

(04:27):
again, clows down again. Yeah, and then all of a sudden we're
doing like to go only, andthen it was patio only and that was
during the winter, which was likethe worst timing possible. And then they
told us that we can only havelike two fifty percent of the walls on
a tent set up, so you'relike trying to set up like FORESD air
heaters, pointing towards all the tablesthis outside. Yeah, it was wild.
Did you guys ever have to dolike reservations. I'm sure you remember

(04:49):
that ken where it's like we canonly have XYZ people in here, and
then it's like ninety minutes and thenI got a politely kick you out because
I can only occupy half the tthe spot. Yeah, it was kind
of weird being a brewery and havingto operate under the model of like what
a restaurant is, because like wehad hosts, we had waitresses, like
we had bartenders who loved their jobbecause all they had to do was stay

(05:11):
behind the bar and poor beer andnobody could even come up to the bar.
So yeah, it was kind ofa kind of weird experience. Well,
I'll tell you this. I waspouring beer at Uda Pills at the
time, and that's my connection throughKFN, as they had the KFN labeled
beer and that's how I got toknow Ken. And during COVID, whether
it was companies that advertise on theradio, things got so slow and I'm

(05:32):
sitting at the house like I gotto do something here. And so outside
of doing that, I had Fridayand Saturdays had poor beer at Uda Pills.
People were pretty generous during the COVIDtimes, I would say that,
and people people helping people. There'sall sorts of of of negative connotations in
some way, and you know,nobody makes eye contact anymore or talks to
each other. But I'll tell youduring COVID, people came together and it

(05:56):
was kind of a cool thing.So, uh, getting that out of
the way. Going back to thebasics of it from a beer standpoint,
you mentioned you did home brewing,so at some point you had to know
that you were capable of opening abrewery and putting beer on a table that
someone was going to drink. Wasthat via the home brewing experience? What
went into eventually deciding, you knowwhat, I can craft some good beer

(06:17):
and I think people will like it. Well, I don't think people would
like my beer as much as theylike mix we like. When we initially
opened up, we were looking atopening up as just like kind of what
you guys do it heavy, asa very small tap room only experience.
That's what we wanted to do.Initially, all the locations that we looked
at in Champlin were either like tooclose to a church or like you couldn't

(06:39):
like we couldn't do it. Soand then this building came available and we're
like, okay, well let's doit. Like, well, how close
can you be to a church?Though you have to I think in the
state of Minnesota you have to befive hundred feet away from a church to
be able to open up I don'tknow if it's a brewery or if they're
going to make the parishioners walk thatfar? Are they it's brewery in bar
because one of the first places welooked at was in Brighton, Yeah,

(07:00):
and it was a it was anold family video for church. Yeah for
heavy and they were like, yeah, it's across from the church. But
there was a Broadway pizza or whatever. It was kind of kitty corner.
Yeah, but it was over thefive hundred feet They were like six hundred
and fifty feet away. Yeah,so they could be a bar and restaurant
over there. But yeah, sothere's some surveyor that physically walks that off.

(07:23):
I suppose. Yeah, they gotto figure that out. Just got
to call my brother. I guess, yeah, they'll figure it out.
What was the what was the firstbeer? What was the first incarnation of
Elm Creek? The very first beerthat viat Nick and coming together that you
put on you put in a bottlefor people. So I guess we'll kind
of go back to when we likestarted packaging our beer, Like I kind

(07:44):
of go as far as to say, like when we did four packs,
is kind of like when our beerkind of became what it was. Okay,
Yeah, it was also a productof COVID tappering was shut down.
We got kind of forced in thecanning our beers and everything. So the
first round we did three beers.It was called Rare Candy because a blueberry
raspberry sour, which we still havethat's our flagship's hour to this day.

(08:07):
We had a beer called Spellbreaker,which was a hazy double I PA,
and then we had a single IP a hazy that was called Voodoo Vibes,
which we haven't made in probably twoyears now. Wow, but those
are kind of the that was kindof an introduction to us to the market.
Yeah. And now when you whenyou walk into Elm Creek up here
in Champlain, now you're going tosee many, many, many many more

(08:28):
beers we got, cans we gotand then they're they're rapidly expanding. I
still want to get to that,But how did you decide on those beers?
And Ken, I'd like to hearyou after after Mitch as well,
from the standpoint of you know,each brewery can can almost be like a
fingerprint in the unique way that theyapproach it. You got an I P,

(08:50):
a heavy establishment, you got alogger heavy establishment. Maybe it's either
what the brewers best at, orat least what the brewer loves the most.
How did you guys settle in orleast start to game plan? I
made this, people really like it, but how do I get to the
next one? Like? How doyou settle in in terms of this is
the type of beer that we wantto make? Yeah, So like what

(09:11):
kind of got like me into thecraft beer scene was like hazy IPAs with
a lot of people kind of justlike okay, that kind of brings you
in and gets you kind of moreinvested in it. Oh yeah. Once
we hired Nick, we knew hehad a lot of like history and making
hazy IPAs sours. He had workedat fifty six Brewing for like four years.

(09:33):
He helped open up that place.So we kind of use that as
like kind of our launch point,like we love this beer. When were
like at the time, it's likethe most two most popular beers were sours
and hazy IPAs, So we usethat as like, this is what we're
going to start out with to bringour beer to the market. And then
our old system that we had wasmuch smaller. We weren't able to do

(09:54):
like Laggers or we didn't have thespace to do it. We always had
dreams of like bringing Laggers to themarket that because that's what we all like
to drink. So we kind ofused hazy Ipa as sours and everything as
a jumping point to kind of makingthe beer that we wanted to and that
kind of brings us to where we'reat now, is like we're still constantly
making hazy ip a. New hazyIpa is new sours. We actually just

(10:15):
put a new sour on yesterday,so we'll have to maybe give that one
to try and see what you guysthink. Absolutely, But what about you,
Ken? How did how did youand Josh kind of settle in because
now you know, again heavy rotation, the vibe of it is you are
doing quick changeouts and things like thatwhile maintaining staples of course as well.
But how'd you guys level out thatconversation in moving forward? Yeah, So,

(10:35):
as you mentioned, I was atUdapill's for a while, and then
Josh was the head brewer at WickedWord. So Udapell's was you know,
fifty barrel system, hunter barrel fermentorousthings like that. Wicked I believe was
ten, so very limited on whatyou can make in those both those places,
right, and some like Wicked didn'thave a ton of for mentors or

(10:56):
anything, so and Uda Pills,it's like like you're not going to make
something crazy in a hundred barrels,right, that's just right too much to
do. So for us, whenwe started talking about opening up Heavy,
we're like, well, what dowe want to do. We want to
do very little distribution. We wantit to be the tap like go back
to the tap room thing where it'sjust you show up to the tap room.
What we have is what we have. Change, it could change as

(11:16):
you're sitting at the bar, andwe just wanted that more variety just because
of where we came from. Okay, so then we first thing we did
right, Like we both love hazyIPAs, but we also love a lot
of the traditional stuff. As youmentioned, like you're gonna keep making hazy
IPAs one because that's what the marketwants, right, and so in order
to not get bored with it,you make different kinds with different hops,

(11:37):
and there's all different kinds of thingsyou can do with a hazy ipa.
But loggers are definitely something that Joshreally loves. And for us, it
is kind of like, because weare so small, it's a little bit
of a struggle to make them inthe sense that we have to turn stuff
so quickly. We'd love them tosit for way longer than they do.
But it's kind of is what itis for our system. But it's,

(12:00):
uh, we really kind of wantto do a little bit of everything.
Okay, that's what that system doesfor us. And that's and again that's
derivative just because of where we were, we didn't really have the option to
make a ton of weird stuff.Yeah, all right, let me ask,
okay, one of many stupid questions, Mitch, But maybe this isn't
even the first one. When whenyou took Ken and I on a little

(12:22):
tour backstage, so to speak,and the barrels and you're talking about fifty
barrel system, ten barrel system,thirty barrel system, what MIT engineers did
you have to employ the services ofthat? I mean, that's one hell
of an operation back there making itall work. You can't forget any joints
or couplers or switches of any sort, and it all has to work together.

(12:46):
Like, what was that process likeis you're you know, once you
have a facility, then you kindof get to dream, weave a little
bit and design exactly what this thing'sgoing to look like. That must have
been arduous but super cool. WellI wish I say it was kind of
arduous. But when we expanded andlike we contacted Quality Tank Solutions over in

(13:07):
Wisconsin. They have a whole teamof people that they do everything from layout,
they custom build like everything to fitinside the space that you have,
so like and luckily they are retailersof the canning company that we bought,
so they were able to like buildeverything perfectly to fit inside the space.
So there was like, no there'sno moving anything around, Like before it

(13:30):
even got delivered, it was justno sweat. Yeah, just watching it
set up. No, I'm thinking, Okay, so I'm picturing like,
you know, I'm a guy withlike my mister beer kit and I made
a beer and I want to bethe next Anheuser Busch family, and I
got Clydesdale's running around and everything.I'm thinking, this is going to be
tough. Apparently you just call upCanning or Tank Solutions in Wisconsin and they
handle business for you. Yeah.Wow, I mean it was pretty impressive.

(13:54):
Right. You work with your contractorand all that stuff. When you
first build out, you're like,this is what we're looking for. Someone's
space we have and as mentioned,our place is tiny. I thought there
was no way we're getting this manyfor meners in there, and we have
room it's piped for three more andI'm like when we first did it,
I'm like, good luck. Andthen they just they know exactly where to
put everything, you know, like, oh, I don't have to do

(14:15):
shit. I just stand in thereand like I'll help them. I'll push
the thing around a little bit.But no, you took pictures and tweeted.
That's what I did. Yes,that's what they pay me the big
bucks. Well, you're the marketingguy on the marketing they pay me the
big bucks for tweeting. And yeah, so at one point you mentioned it
that you wanted to distribution. Wasn'tmaybe in the thought process at least initially

(14:35):
it was I want to place peoplecan go in my hometown drink beer that
we produce, and it's kind ofit's a neighborhood tap house. What was
it like over the last so manyyears? Then kind of the the incremental
expansion where it's like, Okay,you know, five people come in one
day, Well, now it's tenconsistently. Now it's fifteen, now it's
fifty. Now I got to figureout how to shoehorn these people in here.

(14:58):
And people are talking about my beerand they keep asking me if it's
in a liquor store, and Ihave to say no, and I feel
like an ass about it. Whatwas the incremental growth period like over the
last few years. Incremental is agood way of putting it. When we
first kind of like got into liquorstores, we didn't have any salespeople or
anything like that. It was justkind of a move that we had to

(15:20):
make to be able even to stayopen. Yeah, start caanning our beers,
start putting into liquor stores, startselling kegs and everything. Ashley Anderson
our Tapper manager at the time,her and she was Tapper manager. I
was just kind of the GM kindof helping out. I was helping out
in the back of house a littlebit. But we started just like going
around to liquor stores. And that'sactually how we met Taylor, our sales

(15:41):
manager. He was working as abeer buyer over at Top ten and Blaine
and had a good relationship with ourfriend Ashley, who does a lot of
our social media and everything, andso like once we got him, then
it really started to kind of takeoff and kind of we're like, oh,
crap, we're going to our fivebarrel brew house and ten barrel for
Mentors is not going to be bigenough. So for like a year and

(16:03):
a half we worked on getting thatexpansion done because we're as you can I
can imagine, like trying to packageoff of like five and ten barrel for
mentors for over one hundred liquor storesat the time was very difficult, and
we're calling in mobile canning to comein and just package our product for us,
and we were only working in acooler that was six feet wide by

(16:23):
twenty five feet long, and wewere packing in pallettes up to the ceiling.
So and then finally we got theapproval from SBA to like kind of
build the expansion. And even afterwe got that was still about a year
before we even broke ground. Andonce we did that, we got our
own canning line, started doing ourown package product and really homing that stuff

(16:45):
and and now we're really comfortable withwhat we're putting out there, and it's
just been very very organic growth.Some of it was a little forced,
but for the most part has beenorganic, and it's just kind of every
step is a little bit different.Sometimes there's a big steps, sometimes there's
a step back, and it justkind of keep pushing forward. It going
so pretty well so far. Whenyou walk back there in the semi truck

(17:07):
full of cans shows up, doyou ever harken back to the days when
you had like the blank can thatyou just stick under the tap and then
take a sharpie and write the labelon it and do it that way.
It's like, wow, how farwe've come? Yeah? Yeah, playing
actual Tetris inside here is not toofun well, and I have to imagine
too, right, Like, itis a competitive market, So even if

(17:30):
you don't have a ton of volume, if you do have someone out there
trying to sell product, it's hardto say no. If a liquor store
is like, yeah, we'll taketwenty cases, you don't want to say
no because if you say no,you go back next time. They're like,
well, you didn't have it forit's last time, how do we
know you're gonna have this time?So you almost have to do like you.
I do it to Josh every oncein a while. I do the
same thing. I'm like, hey, this account wants us to do this.

(17:52):
He's like, Okay, well Iguess we'll we'll make it work.
Yeah, like and it. Sothat's kind of I get one you saying
that it's you kind of have todo it if they're saying yeah, and
then you have to expand because you'relike, oh shit, all these people
want our beer now, and goodfor you guys that it seems to be
just rocking. So thanks. Sois there from a from a liquor store

(18:15):
standpoint, you know, competition inthe market certainly how accommodating? What's that
process? Like, whether you're workingthrough a distributor you mentioned top ten that's
where you met Taylor, I believe, or maybe it's a distributor who can
can go out and they work withmultiple different stores. Again, I'm coming
at this process being very daft andand unknowing in this. But is there

(18:37):
competition in terms of cooler space?I see, for the most part,
liquor stores appear like and and fortheir own benefit, like they want to
supply as much local space as theycan or whatever that limit is. But
but is that kind of a gameas well, where it's like I need
I need mine, maybe even asnitpicky as I need mine next to this
kind of beer versus maybe you knowI'm next to the coronas all the time

(19:02):
or something like that. Is what'sthat process? Like? Luckily, with
like a lot of liquor stars,they already have like a Minnesota craft section
kind of like already set aside foreverybody. But there's always constantly like there's
been breweries kind of going under,a new breweries starting up that are distributing,
and it's it's a battle for likecold shelf space is like because and

(19:23):
that's the a topic, right,it's got to be cold. I mean,
and and I love total wine.I go there all the time for
bourbon choices and such. But youknow, I'm sure you've noticed this as
a proprietor as well, they'll havethat warm Minnesota section and then there's a
much more uh I guess limited spaceof cooler spots for local beers. And

(19:44):
I am one of those guys,call me a Lutch whatever. When I
go into a liquor store to purchasebeer, I usually trying to wait for
it to cool down. Yeah yeah, I'm also impatient. Yeah yeah,
that's funny. Speaking of buy forneed, like in Omah. My wife's
from Omaha, and there was acool thing I saw liquor stores did where
maybe they do it here, Idon't know, but you can buy like

(20:06):
a six pack or a bottle ofwine or whatever, and they'll put it
into like a little cooling device.So if you're like, they'll like encourage
you to keep shopping in the grocerystore, like, just you can take
that warm six pack, put itin here, come back in fifteen to
twenty minutes, it'll be cold foryou. What I've ever seeing that?
Oh, it was amazing. Speakingto Omaha, by the way, and
you used to work there, yourgals from there, Apparently they have like

(20:29):
this amazing craft beer scene and onthe fan. Justin Guard, one of
my coworkers, he's advertised for Ithink it's their Visitors Bureau or whatnot for
a handful of years, but theyadvertise it up here in Minneapolis. If
you go to Omaha, it ain'tjust insurance companies. You can also drink
Elite craft beer. So that's thecase down in Omaha. That's kind of
a Yeah, there's a Midwestern gem. They're kind of blowing up. Yeah.

(20:52):
I mean one of my favorites downthere is Cross Train. Okay,
they're fantastic. But yeah, there'sa lot of there's I mean, there's
a Lucky Bucket, there's a tonof places. Yeah. Yeah, Omaha
is a sneaky little town for craftbeer. That's super cool. Now,
one thing I do want to getinto, Mitch is in not only here
locally, but really among craft breweries. But let's focus locally. The THCHC

(21:17):
pole has been like this massive magnet, right And I don't know whether it's
brewers like yourself who are actively interestedin offering additional product, or maybe it's
similar to a Seltzer or a glutenfree option, which is kind of somebody
offered it first and then everyone elseis like, well, we kind of

(21:37):
got to get in on it.It's a little annoying. I actually don't
really like any of the seltzers,but I got to offer it. From
a customer standpoint, is where's thatmagnetic pole coming from in the massive growth
of THC drinks? Well, Ithink a lot of a lot. I
think it does come down a lotto like having a gluten free option too.
It seems like we have a lotof people like because we do make

(21:59):
our own like our own brand ofTHC Seltzers here, okay, And I
would say like nine out of tenpeople like will come in, they'll turn
the can to look at it.They and unlike beer, we're putting calorie
count, We're putting like all theingredients everything on the back of it,
and everybody just like, I'm notsomebody that really pays attention to that stuff
too much, but like almost everybodylike comes in and it opens up a

(22:22):
whole different customer base, which iskind of crazy. We have people of
all ages coming in and buying theTHC Seltzers In a lot of ways.
It hasn't really like saved us,but it really helps, Like it is
it's a whole different side of thebusiness that really just helps you kind of
either meet ends or kind of getover the hump or something. Okay.

(22:44):
Is that maybe in recent years,is like edibles have become more accessible in
the state and recent legislation, Ithink it's it's not legal to sell marijuana
as a is it dispensary quite yet. I think that's like twenty twenty five
or something. But now how it'seffectively decriminalize whatever that is. But has
that kind of been within the likekind of that last couple of years where

(23:06):
that's really boomed out. Yeah,it was the uh it was it?
What was it two years ago?Two and a half years ago now the
THC bill that they kind of snuckthey a delta nine bit. That's right,
Yeah, I had it hidden in. Do you have to change anything
in terms of how you guys operatebackstage in terms of putting it together maybe
isolated or however that works. Yeah, So, like cold storage is like

(23:29):
the big thing. You got tomake sure it's separated from everything else,
and it has to be separated.I believe it. I might be wrong
on this, but I believe ithas. Like according to TTB, it
has to be completely separate. Thenwhat your beer is, so like all
your ingredents, you have to haveit separate. You can't have it mixed
in with everything else. Yeah.I think that's there. There is a

(23:51):
lot of like licensing through the state, but it's still like absolutely the wild
West. Like they just finally gottheir like regulatory committee committee up and they're
finally going around to lick stars andmaking sure that people have all the requirements
that you have to have on thecan. It's kind of an ask for
permission versus or ask for forgiveness versuspermission type of thing a little bit because
I know, like at Brooklyn Park, we were selling it for a while

(24:11):
because the state was like, yeah, you just let us one. You're
doing it, no big deal,there's no cost or no nothing. We're
like, all right, cool.So we were selling a product and then
we got a letter from the city. Oh that was like, hey,
we see you're selling this. It'sthis much to sell it, this is
much for background checks, it's whatever. And we were kind of we were

(24:32):
kind of like this is this isweird, Like all of a sudden,
now there's all and we were wewere kind of asking them about why does
it cost this much versus like ourbeer license and for background checks on that
is this much? Now you wantthis much for THC stuff? And they
didn't really have a good answer,so we were just kind of like,
all right, until you guys figureit out. Yeah, like we're gonna
set back for a little bit.Because we did sell quite a bit of

(24:53):
it, and we were we wereall on board. We were gonna like,
have you guys make some for us, and like it was gonna be
a whole thing. And then justall that happening, I was like,
all right, I want to knowwhat's going on. Yeah, before like,
I don't want to get a letterfrom the city again saying, hey,
you guys sold X amount of dollarsin TC you owe this much.
And because it was already the taxeshere, I mean, maybe it's just

(25:14):
a Minnesota tax on the THC's likeeighteen point something. I think it's seventeen
point five to two is what itis. It's an additional ten percent on
top of it. I'm eighteen now. Is this Hennebon County? Yeah?
Yeah, so it is eighteen nowbecause of Hennebon County's now eleven point zero.
That's what are you serious? Yeah? Holy cats, did that surprise
you at all? I mean,the the spider web of licensing in various

(25:38):
things coming from the outside, andthen you're in the thick of it.
You're getting phone calls. You know, we're looking for that two thousand dollars
check to the city or to thestate for XYZ line item. That's you
know, it's part of doing business. It's but unforn you know in some
ways then you kind of got topass it on to the customer obviously.
But you know, when when youopen this business versus where it is today,

(26:02):
whether maybe it's the licensing thing oruh, just the other things accommodating
customers, the outdoor space, wasthere any element of this where you're like,
oh, I didn't think of that. This is a thing that we
need, like the you know whatit is now versus what you envisioned it.
You're like, my goodness, youknow, all the various things in
good faith to your customers and you'relike, yeah, I gotta I gotta

(26:22):
add that, I gotta add that, and and how that went. Yeah,
there, it's pretty much every weeksomething else. Yeah, it's every
it's every day, right, Like, yeah, it's there's a there's a
lot of light. Like especially withalcohol and THC production, there's so many
hoops you got to jump through tobe able to like make sure that you're
paying everything on time. You can'tlet anything lapse. It's it's and you'll

(26:45):
hear from like if you let itgo one day, you'll hear from Yeah,
we just we just had a likeone of our our insurance guys message,
He's like, hey, uh,your work comp is like do today
like the And I was like,oh, I'm like didn't even know,
Like I didn't like, can youjust pay it now? Like go ahead
and pay it. I'm like,I don't want any issues. Yeah,
Like it wasn't something that I wasexpecting, but I should have expected it,

(27:06):
right, But I don't know.But as far as like things that
happen that are surprises, I thinkyou're right. Every week, Like,
especially with customers, their tastes changewhenever they want to taste to change,
right, So that's what we werekind of talking about. How like it
used to be like you just goto a brewery and that's Oh they have
craft beer that they make. That'sawesome. I don't care if they have
food. I don't care if theyhave seltzers, I don't care if they

(27:26):
have whatever. Now it's well,do they have THC, do they have
sours? Do they have this?Do they have that? Like they have
a slushy machine. They have aslushy machine, which, by the way,
I'm pretty sure we broke the recordfor our slushy machine sales on Saturday.
That was insane. But now dothey have food? Like do they
have all these different things? Solive music is live music? Do they

(27:48):
have trivia? Do they have Manjohn? Do they have whatever? It is?
Right? Like? Well and petsas well. I heard it's talking
prior to a lot of places.It's you know, if you if you
serve a certain type of food,you can't then have pets inside, you
know, speaking of hoops to jumpthrough and you know it were you obviously
you weren't aware of all of it. But like brewery culture, like it

(28:08):
feels like there's there is there.There does have to be a live music
element, There does have to bean event element to it. There does
have to be really a pet elementto it too. And it's just it's
interesting to me as a guy thatI enjoy drinking the beer, but just
looking at it culturally, there arelike certain pillars of craft breweries that you

(28:29):
know, I would never expect meto be able to bring my dog into
the VFW per se, but orjust you know, let's a sports bar
of your choice type of thing.I wouldn't expect to be able to bring
Fido. But once in a while, somebody's well I can't bring my dog
into this. This is ridiculous.I can't believe this is a thing.
And it's just it's kind of amazinghow brewery culture is still despite the fact

(28:52):
that you offer most of the thingsthat that many sports bars. I can
watch my TV sit in here,I can drink, I can get some
food and all of that that it'sstill you're kind of on a separate planet,
or at least people view you thatway. Hmm. Yeah. And
I feel if you're a brewery inthe past, putting up a TV was
kind of like one of the mostridiculous things you've ever heard. Correct,
But that's kind of It's like nowI go to a lot of breweries and

(29:14):
they all have TVs. Yeah,I know. Now you guys have a
TV behind the bar, which wewhen we first opened, we were like
no, t like we're not gonnado any TVs or like this is just
but then you're like, wait aminute, we're in the suburbs one right,
Like they're gonna want sports. Becausethat's another cost of talk about the
expecting things. We didn't expect thecost of cable to be that much for
It's like so for a commercial environment, for a commercial environment. You're like,

(29:37):
what yeah, uh hope, Bigten network. That's gonna be an
additional two hundred Yeah, yeah exactly. And that's but yeah, like and
then but downtown to do to toPills again bringing it back to Uda Pills.
Uh, they wouldn't have the TVson most time, and people wouldn't
care. Yep, you know it'sit's downtown and and different people, different

(29:59):
interests of course. But the guysthat you know, the Biking club,
you know, in this wave ofSpandex rolls in there, they're not interested
in getting the Twins score. They'reinterested in having a pint and moving on.
Maybe at Heavy, maybe out hereat Elm Creek they're like, well,
maybe they don't want to watch theTwins right now given the wing The
seasons start awful, But like gameGame one, Wolves and Suns on Saturday

(30:22):
at two thirty pm, what abetter spot, whether it's your joint at
Heavy or your spot here at ElmCreek. I got plenty of access to
watch the game. Hopefully Bradley Bealdoesn't go off for forty, but it
is. But again, I likethe way you put it, Ken is
the suburbs like you are, you'renot. They're not different humans per se,
but maybe a different a different typeof customer out here versus downtown.

(30:45):
Yeah, I think it's a littlebit more family oriented, probably right like
here versus downtown. So people likethe kids need something to do as well
here. So if you pop aTV on or whatever, maybe the dads
like, are the mom is Ireally want to go watch the game?
Where can we bring a kid?Like? That's not a sports bar where
it's not it's not people ripping shotsand doing all that stuff. It's a
little more relaxed. Breweries are thatspot in my opinion. But it's funny

(31:10):
because there's still breweries. I'll givethem a shout out. There's one brewery
that does a really good job ofsports stuff and that's back Channel. Other
than that, it's tough seeing ifyou still from back channels like they they
crush it with the sports stuff becausewe've talked about it, We've talked about
sports stuff like oh, what doyou do for the vikings? What do
you do for this? And it'sas much as people like coming for that

(31:33):
stuff, there's still like a lotof people don't know that breweries have TVs
and that they do show sports becausefor the longest time they didn't. Yeah,
so most people are like, I'mgoing to go over to sports bar
of your choice as you said,right and go watch the game there.
But TVs you gotta have them now. I would say Backchannel probably has like
the best Viking Sunday even like outsideof like sports bars and everything. They

(31:56):
do it. Right, they gota giant like projector screen that they set
out on their paddy for real,while rightund Park similar area they're running around
with the galla horn type thing andeverything. That's crazy. Oh it's wild,
dude. It's it's you can boatin boat out of there too,
right, Yeah, Oh that's sweet. You know, it's it's interesting if
if and then not that people whoown potentially competing businesses don't communicate, you

(32:21):
know that can you know within achamber of commerce type relationship and keeping each
other up. But there's nothing likelike you guys know each other you just
mentioned only from back Channel. Youknow, somebody from Loop o Len's going
to be here in a couple hours, Like I mean, it's just the
brewers that the community itself maybe lendsto the uniqueness of it and how tightly
knit. It appears it is.You guys make different types of beer,

(32:44):
you sell different types of beer.Uh, in some ways more so some
than others. You're you're vying forsimilar customers. But in the end,
it's like you guys are both betterfor interacting with other brewers in the business.
Do you see it that way?Yeah, I think it only helps,
like working with other breweries likes arelike one of our favorite things to
do, have another brewery come over, make a beer, We get to

(33:05):
know each other. And all ofa sudden, you got like people that
can help you out in the situationthat you might not understand, like especially
from like THHC, like the guysat Backchannel or like the probably the people
that helped me out the most,like try to like understand, like I
had no idea what I'm doing whenit comes to THC. So they're helping
us with like who should we buyour THC emulsion from? Who? Like
what kind of license that there's nothingwe really have to do for it right

(33:29):
now, But at least I knowthat because I got somebody that could actually
help me, versus having to tryand dig up some thing on the internet
that doesn't have all the information there. Oh that makes total sense. And
in some ways, you guys withinthe business, everyone flourishing is kind of
a good thing for everybody. Ohis that the case? I think so?
Yeah. I think just having likejust like everybody is friends in the

(33:54):
brewing industry is just good for everybodybecause I mean it's like all of a
sudden you hear like heavy rotation.It has new beer coming out. We
can plug that for them if likewe don't have something. That's like if
they don't like what we have tooffer me, like, oh they're five
minutes away, like we saw thatthey release this beer this day. They're
five minutes away, go have havethat beer. I mean we tell ourselves

(34:15):
all that all the time because there'sa lot of breweries right around us,
right we got you guys, tenk alloy omnim I missing I miss anybody
tork all these places right that.Yeah, there's a ton of places around
us. So like much all you'resaying, So if we have since our
beers rotate a lot, someone willcome like, oh, you guys had
a doppelboch on, but where it'sgone now? Oh, well we know

(34:36):
that these guys have one ongo checkthem out right, It doesn't hurt us
in any way to say, hey, go to that place, because then
if they do come here, like, oh, next time they're in town,
like, oh, we can goto both. Like it's kind of
because we're six minutes from each other. Yeah, right, So it doesn't
hurt anybody in our opinion, doesn'thurt anybody by doing that, right,
Like, if I was a regularsports bar, I would be like,

(34:57):
don't go to that one. Stayhere. We got we got the exis
act same stuff, right, buthere everything everybody's beers. They might have
the same style pills in or pillsinner, but they're gonna taste different.
Sure, everybody has their own wayof brewing them. Right, there's a
little bit which I don't know.I think that's kind of a fun thing
about it. No, absolutely,have you ever have you ever or Nick

(35:19):
your brewer? Have you guys evermade a beer that maybe like you guys
came together and you're like, I'mnot really a fan of this, but
the customers are like, my god, this is amazing, And it's almost
to the point where you love thatyour customers are getting paid off with a
great beer and you're happy to servethem that, but in the same sense,
like a little back room conversation.It's like, man, this I

(35:40):
don't get it. I don't understandwhy they love it so much. But
that's great. I guess I thinkwe did early on. But now it's
like we had we have quite afew employees here now, so it's like,
well, we'll have people sample thebeers and sure, like it's so
crazy, like how our flavor likeour palettes are, Like the guys I'm
back, our palets are completely differentthan what our bartenders have. Like we'll

(36:02):
run up samples to our bartenders andyou know, just watch their eyes light
up. We're like, oh,all right, yes that works. That
order up you get in double.How flexible can you guys be in that
regard? Or maybe I guess whatI've seen it. I've seen it in
other spots. Maybe there's there's likea calendar of maybe this time of the

(36:24):
year, we want to put outsomething that's lighter, maybe there's a sweeter
taste to it summertimes. Upon us, this is what you're going to drink
in the boat, or this iswhat you're gonna drink up at the campground,
And then you kind of you kindof maybe plot out a map over
a certain period of time in termsof how flexible can you guys be in
changing flavors, changing beers, changingvibes. We're pretty flexible still. The

(36:49):
like where we're at is kind ofnice because like from our old brew house,
we saved a bunch of our tenbarrel fermenters. So what we can
do, like especially with like sours, or if we do like a blonddale
or an eye ipa, like alot of those, we can brew thirty
barrels of that and then ferment itout in a thirty barrel for mentor,
and then we can split it intothree different ten barrel for mentors, and
so that we can have like threedifferent kinds they have a hazy ipa,

(37:14):
we could all like dry hop themdifferently, or like with sours, we
can add different fruits to them,and it just makes it so like it
keeps our tap room fun and fresh. Yeah, and it also helps with
our self distribution and our like outlike our distributors market too, because all
of a sudden, we have liketen or twenty kegs of something that we
don't normally have. So we're prettyflexible on that we do kind of miss

(37:36):
the ability to like constantly make newbeers because we're only making them five to
ten barrels at a time. Sowe were able to like really crank out
new styles and hop combinations, newfruit profiles, just a whole bunch of
different stuff. But we still havequite a bit of that, but not
quite as much as we used to. Okay, you've kind of gone from
like Jackson Pollock, we're all overthe place to a little more within the

(37:59):
lines. Interesting within the lines isone thing we're trying to focus on a
little bit more with all this expansionstuff. Though, Maybe get yourself a
nice little one barrel system just forjust for some of that one off stuff
that I mean, that'd be kindof just do the weirdest off you could
possibly think, Yeah, we wouldlove to do that well with your customers,
and maybe it's probably maybe different orsimilar for both of you. Would

(38:21):
you say you mentioned keeping the taproom fresh and just kind of when I
come in, if it's once aweek, let's just pick Friday for instance.
Okay, I slide down the backof the Dinosaur. The work week's
done, I'm gonna hit up elmCreak or I'm gonna hit up heavy and
you got something new in there,and it's like, oh, that's super
cool. What would you say,is there? Is there a significant number

(38:42):
of your customers a smaller amount,a loyal group, a cabal of sorts
that that are constantly craving that freshLike, hey, you know, Mitch,
I thought this. I thought thisnew beer was going to be in
where the hell? Where the hellis it? It's going to be in
next Tuesday. I'll see you Tuesdaythen and then they they'll they'll leave and
they'll come back on Tuesday when theygot that fresh flavor. Is that a
significant part of your customer base?Maybe just a loyal group. How do

(39:05):
you look at that? It usedto be a little bit more significant than
it is now because we did havea lot more new beers coming out.
We still have like a good groupof anywhere from It kind of depends on
what kind of beer it is,too, Like if we release a new
Logger or something like that, peopledon't come knocking down the doors to try
and come and get it. Butlike if we have like a new hazy
ipa sour or maybe just like somekind of fruit ale, just anything,

(39:29):
or like I know, like ourlike doppele Bock a lot of our seasonal
releases. That's when we like reallyget like the big birth of people.
Not so much the loggers or anything, but we do have like a good
like anywhere between twenty or fifty peoplethat will come in, Like as soon
as we release a beer within thenext three days, we'll see those twenty
to fifty people. Oh that's awesome. Do you participate in the october Fest

(39:52):
craze? Yeah? I have abuddy who He's been here, he's been
there, He's been freaking everywhere.He will drink twenty to thirty different October
Fests every fall without fail. He'sso proud of it. I get a
picture of about half of them.It's I think it's an obsession. It's
a good Frankly, I think it'sa good obsession. But all the same,

(40:12):
it's a weird one as well.Uh, but that's the it's the
it's the people that are so connectedto those kinds of flavors. How do
how do you do an October Festversus a heavy or somebody else. It's
amazing how excited people get about that. That's gonna be maybe one of the
coolest parts about what you do isyou put something out there and the guy
sitting across the bar take and youmentioned it from your bartenders, their eyes

(40:35):
light up and you're like, didthat one right? Kick that's at kick
that ass. So that's sweet man. Yeah, that is a pretty awesome.
Like we kind of have that too, where people come in when you
post a beer and it's funny thatyou say you post like a Loggers coming
out and people are like, allright, yeah, and it's like it's
like one of the best beers thereis and one of the harder beers to
make. So like there's got tobe a meme somewhere of a brewerison back

(40:57):
there going like oh new Logger day, crickets, Oh we got a new
hedgehunk, it's a stout day.Hell yeah, everybody Russian. Yeah.
Like it's kind of fun though,and like you said, to see people
take a sip of your product orwhatever and they're like, oh, wow,
that's really good. Like it's kindof it's a really cool feeling to
have that happen. I can imagine, is there, you know, whether

(41:20):
we were talking about Omaha, You'vebeen other places you've traveled you've had a
beer there and you're like, oh, this is this is interesting. I
didn't I haven't had this up inMinnesota. Has there ever been an instance
where you brought something, maybe anidea back here and then it's like Midwest
a ready for this, like justsomething too, just like something completely out
there. I can't even and youguys, you guys will look at me

(41:43):
like I'm dumb. I can't.I can't even think of what the most
out there? What is the mostout there variety of a beer? Is
there something that's obvious that exists.I mean, we we've handled all the
hops. Yeah, the clarity ofa good logger. People can get fruity,
people can get hazy. I mean, I don't know how out there
this is. But for us,we made a beer that I we thought
was pretty pretty out there. It'sa tropical smoked wheat beer. Whoa,

(42:07):
So it's like pineapple. It's likea hef but pineapplely and its smoky.
It almost has like a this soundslike a weird description, but it's almost
like the pineapple ring on a ham. Okay, Like it kind of has
that and like to us, we'relike, now I'm listening like, no
one's gonna this is a weird thingto make, Like who's gonna? And
then people love it? Yeah,and that's the best. That's the most

(42:29):
out there beer that I think we'vedone. I don't know, like if
I've gone anywhere and just be like, wow, this is really crazy if
it. If I've had anything likethat, it's usually like like how we
do, like the the funked upFriday thing. It's like usually some sort
of infusion thing or sure, butno, I can't think of anything completely
wild. Some different sours maybe,yeah, I think that's like sours are

(42:51):
probably the yeah weird is there's stilla sour craze too, I mean,
oh yeah, yeah. I'd saywhen you come in, it's do you
guys have any sour? Do youguys have any ciders? Cider was a
thing out still a thing in Siderwe get asked about almost every day.
Yeah, really okay, Yeah,and I know, I don't know if
the licensing is different for you guys, but we came and make a sider.
We can make a graph, Yeah, we can have fifty percent malt

(43:15):
beverage. Yeah. Closest we've everdone was we made an apple pie sour
and it was had like it kindof tastes like apple juice, but it
was tard and cinnamony and all thisstuff. And that was a people came
in and said, oh, doyou have a cider? Here you go.
This is very similar. Yeah,we get asked that all time cider,
different different world. Go to sociableWhere do people keep tabs on learning

(43:38):
about Elm Creek? Where do theylearn about the new beer that's going to
come out that that they're going tobe in on? Where where do people
go to other than just coming hereto Champlain right off one sixty nine?
Where do people go to learn moreabout Elm Creek. A little bit that
we do is just obviously like LiquorStar samplings. Yeah, we just recently
hired like nine more ambassadors, Sowe kind of got to the point where

(44:02):
we were doing all the festivals,all the samplings, everything ourselves, but
we kind of can't do that nowthat we have like five a week,
So it's we started growing that inan effort to like just get our beer
into people's hands. Not so muchlike marketing. We do quite a bit
of online like marketing and advertising,but not a whole lot but you know
what's weird is is in a grocerystore and you don't see it a lot

(44:24):
anymore quick trip, does it.I think like food samples, I'm out.
I have no interest in the foodsamples at a liquor store. I'm
in. Yeah, even if it'ssomething that you know, there's a certain
super popular cinnamon flavored liquor that everybodyloves. I can't stand it. It's

(44:45):
just it. It hits me thewrong way and I just hate it.
You'll take the free sample, though, if it's sampled at a liquor store,
I'm gonna. I'm gonna at leasthave a sip. I'm gonna I'm
gonna have a sip and then I'llsay thank you, I'll walk away and
maybe I'll finish it. Maybe Iwon't. But there's something about liquor store
samples, like I'm already there,I got a plan. It's a Friday.
But the liquor store samples are thebest. Yeah, I mean,

(45:07):
I'm I'm a huge fan. Iused to have to do a bunch of
them, so I if you have, if you have the right person doing
it, that's an ambassador, asyou say, right, like, hey,
try yourself, blah blah blah,because I might be going in knowing
I'm all right, I'm getting productA. I want this beer. I'm
getting that beer for sure. Butevery time I go in, I do
peruse and look and see what elseis, Like, Oh, I wonder
who what did elm Creek put outthis week? Right? Like, I'm

(45:28):
looking at it and if there's somebodygoing like, hey, try it,
all right, I will and maybeif I buy that or not or whatever.
But I yeah, I mean it'sfantastic. It's a fantastic idea.
And then it's only it's an easyway to get the product. It's an
easy way to get the product intothe customer's hand. And most people,

(45:49):
like you said, won't say noto a sample. Yeah, and I
can't imagine doing five a week.No thanks, I could, there's no
way now. Usually I but andbut that the selling, the selling.
It doesn't take a lot to sellme. For a lot of times I'm
going in there, I can't drinkyet, you know what I mean,
Like I got something to do thatdoesn't include drinking. But I also,

(46:10):
I mean they're just they're sitting there. I mean, they're just they're just
being super nice. They're being verygiving. Who am I to turn them
down? Now? You mentioned somethingthat's interesting to me. Uh you get
do you guys when you're at theliquor store, do you do you look
at it from a consumer standpoint ordo you look at it from a proprietor
standpoint? Because I go in andI'll admit, like, I know where

(46:34):
the local section is, and I'veseen your beer, and I've seen all
kinds of local beers, but Iam I I will sample some different ones,
but I'm still always kind of goingin already knowing what I want,
so that you know, I Idon't know how you guys if you look
at it differently, it's just butbut I have to and I've I've worked
at it over the course of timewhen, especially when it comes to beer,

(46:55):
is to step outside my comfort zoneif that makes sense. Yeah,
and for me, for me,I'll go into a liquor store and like
usually looking for something that I've seenpromote it. Thank you, sir,
Oh, hang out the man,Thanks Bud, it's a podcast. Some
freshies, cheers, bro, thankyou cheese like it. No, I

(47:16):
like to go in and kind ofsee like, oh you know if there's
a place that I can't get tovery often, but they make a beer
that everyone's talking about. I've beenburned a couple of times. I canna
say by who. I've also beenlike, holy shit, that was really
good. Yeah, glad I didit right. And plus I like to
I like to support local stuff.When I was at Utapil's, I was
the guy going in like, ohthe can. I got to front face

(47:38):
all the cans and do all thatanswer like you'll like sell the beer,
like get that beer out? AndI never did. Did you ever have
a liquor store employee like what areyou doing in there? Yeah? Oh
yeah, oh my god for thisplace? Like from the movie Clerks where
the guys checking the bottles of milk. I don't know if I'm the only
one that reference. I vaguely rememberthat. Yeah, Like, so you
like having product on else? Doyou find yourself walking in going like,

(48:01):
oh, what does our product looklike? Yeah? I do. I
might be a little too anal inthat sense. I am the guy that
will go up there and turn theturn the labels all as to their face
in the right way. Yeah,but that's your baby, though it is.
I don't think. I don't thinkyou can be too anal in terms
of promoting your own product. Andit's great and like we talked about earlier,

(48:21):
right, there's so much, there'sso many good local craft beers on
a shelf. You really only getsomeone's attention for like one second. Yeah,
right, So if they see likea side of a can that they
can't read or there's weird, theylike, what is that next? Next?
But if they see elm Creek rarecandy, boom, there it is.
I've heard about that when I knowthat one, So if it's sideways,
I don't even know. It won'teven register to me that that's that

(48:44):
can and that's that beer that I'veheard of or seen on social media or
whatever. So yeah, going inand front facing all the cans. Never
don't worry about being too No,that's that's the right move. I'm almost
out of stupid questions, Mitch,And again, I can't thank you enough
for your time. This is socool. The the in restaurant vibe.
So you're on a tap somewhere,You've you've added heavies added taps. I

(49:07):
assume you guys are on at restaurantsas well. So there's a different distribution
angle, and you know, playingthe I got to have the brightest or
the most obvious tap handle, gang, I guess what. Eventually, I'm
just rambling namelessly now getting to thepoint of the question, how do you
measure how effective that can be?Because there's the physical measurement of I gave

(49:29):
these people three kegs and they soldthem, so that's awesome. But is
there is there any way and maybethat's is I guess that's the basis of
it, But is there any wayfor you to measure ultimately like did that
bring in some customers? Hey,I had you over at this restaurant.
Are you able to find a wayto get that kind of feedback? What's
it been like interacting with restaurants beinga craft brewery and getting on one of

(49:52):
those lines. I think getting ourbeer on tap was probably one of the
most exciting things that we, likeI've ever personally had, is like being
able to go and drink our beersomewhere at like a bar restaurant. I'm
a big like going out to barand restaurant, haveing beers and cocktails.
I love that kind of not alifestyle, but like, well, I

(50:12):
mean, but it's it's an ambiance. It's a yeah, it's it's maybe
it is a lifestyle in some ways. It's it's fun being but there's a
there's a little bit of there's thesocial element combined with the anonymity of it.
Yeah, I mean, I haveyou know that the happy hour culture
of sit at the bar. Yougot a buddy or two with you,
and then maybe there's a game on, and now I'm friends with the guy

(50:35):
that's five seats down because we havethat common interest, Like I I love
going to happy hours and hanging outwith bars. But you got to see
elm Creek on a tap line.That's cool as hell. Yeah, it
was super awesome, I guess.Kind of going back on your question though,
like about like the brightness of taphandles and stuff. That was like
when we were going through like whatwe wanted our tap handles to look like.
Finally we made the decision. Yeah, yours has a strobe light on

(50:58):
it. If we could have doneit, we probably would have thought about
it. Yeap eleptics. Yeah,that's supposed to problems, But other than
that, it's been a smashed success. Yeah. Yeah, and we didn't
try to do anything too crazy likeany molds or anything like that with cool
like sweet design on it. Wejust went for bright colors, and we
went with like three tap handles arelike all of our I pas are going

(51:20):
to be a green tap handle.So we see a green tap handle,
you know that they have one ofour palals or I pas on tap.
As far as fruited beers go,we did orange so that you can always
know that like either they're going tohave our sour our seltzer or like some
kind of fruited beer from us.Love that. Yeah, and then pretty
much all the loggers and lighter beerlike all the other options fall under gold.

(51:43):
Okay. So and that's that's supersmart too, because when I when
I go to places, there's atap house that you and I have gone
to in Plymouth a number of times, Awesome Northern Tap. They make a
kick butt spot, they make abeer specifically for Northern Tapa here two days
ago, great example, Northern Tapis awesome. Love that place. So
that place and many many, many, many many others though they'll they'll have

(52:07):
like this long list of beers.And for me, I am a tap
handle guy. So maybe some peopleenjoy reading it and I'm sure many people
do because they print them off.But I noticed the tap handle. Yeah
that matters to me. I wantto see the cool tap handle. When
someone's like, hey, would youlike our beer list? No, just
you can move slightly to your leftor right. I'm going to look at

(52:29):
I'm going to find that tap handlethat I want. Whether it's Elm Creek
or it's heavy rotation, you see, I almost go and because it was
You're right, like when we firstgot our tap handle on, it was
pretty awesome because we weren't planning ondoing it at all. Did you take
pictures on it or talk about it. I'm sure I did. I put
it on the gram all that stuff, but it was on your story.
It was on our story. Okay. But now, like I almost go

(52:52):
the opposite, Like speaking of likeNorthern Tap, I kind of like not
having the tap handles there, becausethen I don't fall into the trap of
going, oh, I love thatbeer I'm getting. I'm forced to look
at the menu and then go oh, I didn't even know that this place
was on tap here, Because one, I don't always know what everybody's tap
handles look like. I so yeah, it kind of forces you to pick

(53:15):
a beer that you might not.I would never would have known that Elm
Creek light was on there with likeI probably would have saw the handle or
whatever. But there's a million things. So if there's you're making a good
point now. So now I'm like, from a business standpoint, I'm like,
oh, please don't put our likeI'd rather not have our tap handle
because if there's a place like thatwhere there's eighty taps, yeah right where
it's just gonna get lost in thefold. Just having an hon a sheet

(53:37):
of paper when people go, ohheavy rotation, never heard of that.
Wouldn't have known the handle anyway,I'm completely reversing my stance on this come
out. You're correct, No,I was now A'm anti tap paddle.
He's a beer sheet game. Nowget rid of him. Give me the
sheets, say, I am literate, I can read, but give me
the sheets. But at the sametime, though, sometimes it is nice
when you go to a place andthey you're like, all right, I

(53:57):
don't want to waste somebody's time.I'm going to go with that. I
know that I'm having green Bell Premium. I'm taking it boom, don't even
need to look. Yeah, soI go, I don't. I like
it both, but I prefer Ithink the no tap panel one. We've
lost a lot of tap panels alreadyand we don't do a lot of distribution,
so like the only tap pandles back. I never see it, like

(54:20):
shout outs to some places around here, like give me my damn tab handles.
Taylor behind Us has been on manytap handle finding missions in his in
his last couple of years. Let'sjust say there's a there's a certain brewery
in Minneapolis. Maybe I have fouror five tap handles. One of them
I think is still actually in theback of my jeep outside by the way.
On the on the bright side,they're super cheap to make, maybe

(54:44):
if you buy three thousand of them. Yeah, right exactly. But like
it's funny you do see like alsudden you see like in the on the
industry page, someone will post like, hey, does anybody want their tap
panels back? This guy is sellinglike eighty of them from different breweries.
It's like on Facebook, market Placeor eBay or whatever. And then people
are like, how dare you dothat? Well, yeah, give me

(55:05):
give my tap handle it. Well, my whole eggs too, we'll see.
My whole bit was I wanted todo a cagurator at my house and
have the kfa n the Kaifan pills, Yeah, the lake great rest in
peace Kaifan, the Kafan tap handle. Uh. And then I realized that
most cagurators are insanely Now I needto like engineer or machine like an old

(55:30):
fridge. Some of these, someof these kegurators are multi thousand dollars.
I thought there were a few hundredbucks you can get them, that you
can get like a one for afew hundred bucks. But I think the
move is if you do have astainless steel though it doesn't have the digital
temp readout, it doesn't have theglass front, there isn't wine storage.
You see where I'm going with you. I see where you're going. You're
not going for the no no littlecollege dorm for I mean when you guys,

(55:52):
look at you see how flashy theselegs are very very important to me,
super flashy. If you do haveif you do you have a fridge
in your house, I think thatwould be the move. Just that's what
we did in our basement. Wejust as a hole in the side of
the fridge. Yeah, that's theway to do it. And it's got
a tap handle in there, andit's just got the keg in there,
the co two and there you go. Oh that's beautiful. So, uh,

(56:13):
you guys are continuing to grow,it appears. So what what is
that? You know in terms ofI guess at some point you got to
say this where we're comfortable doing this, We're in a spot where we can
do this, and how is it? How exciting has it been as you've
taken you know, I guess asin the where we are right now,
where did we start? And nowas I've seen you guys expand down the

(56:37):
role of this building here was it? Was it here? Where? Where?
Where did you start? Where didyou begin? Just in terms of
like expansion early Yeah, oh boy, I guess we'll kind of go back
to when we like decided to putthat expansion on. My dad and I
kind of see my dad, Isay, my dad, he's my partner

(57:00):
in the whole, the whole deal. Him and I kind of see a
little bit differently, but still seeeye to eye. Like he he wants
to continually grow, Okay, AndI'm not saying I don't want to do
that because I do want to keepgrowing. I'm not happy with where we're
at quite yet. But the bigthing we want to do is like the
space that we have now, Likewe want to expand our fermentation capacity.

(57:24):
We want to expand our loggering capacity. That's like my main goal. And
like that's what like kind of likein terms of stepping stones, that's what
we're working towards is getting it toa point that we can handle like all
of Minnesota and then maybe a littlebit of the surrounding area. Okay,
that's kind of like my end goal. What that that is a massive step

(57:44):
moving like out state right Like Idon't know how many breweries, to be
honest with you, in the stateof Minnesota. Yeah, I assume maybe
Summit, maybe Surly. Like ifI if I'm in a different part of
the country, I can find Surlyin some spots. But are those the
only ones right now where Oh no, there's there's a lot of a lot
of breweries. Like I don't reallygo into detail which ones, but there

(58:07):
are a few breweries down in Minneapolisthat they're already in multiple states, like
ten to fifteen states. Another bigthing right now is like craft a beer
market in China and Japan is wild, Like there are breweries literally making like
eighteen wheeler folds of beer like soursIPAs, and they immediately go from there

(58:30):
to get shipped across seas over tolike China and Japan. I wonder is
what goes into that? Like Guinness, for instance, I don't know when
it was And if you guys knowthis, you can tell me if I'm
wrong on this. Guinness at onepoint started making some of their beer like
in Canada, to I guess shortenthe line of which it would have to

(58:52):
be distributed or shipped. I thinkit's something to that nature. You know,
going to Europe having like Pilsner orover there when it's fresh from the
teat is unbelievable. It tastes completelydifferent a week later when you come home
and get one from the liquor store. I wonder what that process is like.

(59:12):
I don't know. I don't know. It's hard enough getting they of
Minnesota trying to be popular all ofa sudden, you're shipping yourself over to
Japan. That's a couple in fairness. In China, that's a that's I
mean, you got a lot ofpeople over there. So it's it's it's
a fresh market in a lot ofways. Yeah, it really is.
When's heavy rotation going over there?Yeah okay, yeah, well we'll talk

(59:37):
about that presenting the slushy machine.Slushy machine, send it over. I
mean, I told Josh the otherday, I'm like, we're just gonna
We're gonna do hazy I p ashloggers, a couple of light loggers,
and then just nothing but slushies.Yeah, I'm just gonna own the market
on the slush machine slushy machines,like like a Fat Tuesday, but different

(59:59):
different brewer is different goals though rightwhere there, you know, it's the
distribution game versus just managing a supersuccessful tap house. Like there are different
benefits you know, you you mightget, you know, whether it's you
know more like this is maybe inthe tap room itself. Maybe this is
more reliable than you know, countingon people to whether it's buy it at

(01:00:21):
the restaurant or buy it in aliquor store, like just going from you
know, brewing a beer in agarage to doing something like this, Like
you it's it's very difficult to havethe scope of like all those decisions that
you'll ultimately make. That's why.So I'm so fascinated by it. It's
a fun it's a fun industry tobe in. It. It is.
I don't I shouldn't say I'm notstressed. I'm unbelievably yeah, I say,

(01:00:45):
but it's a different kind of stress. It's fun to like navigate everything
and just trying to figure out whatpeople want is of completely different industry than
I've been in, and having theflexibility to be able to like do something
that caters to people that not everybodymay enjoy but a few. Yeah,
it's fun. I've said on acouple of our podcasts, like it's absolutely

(01:01:05):
stressful, but like you're saying,it's every day is different. Yeah,
right, so that kind of keepsit a little fresh and a little exciting.
And you don't know, I liketoday, or you're going to get
two hundred and some people three npeople to show up to your tap room,
will it be ten people? Becauseit's cloudy and windy, right,
Like, there's a lot of thingsthat you have no control over and what
you did yesterday, you do ittoday. It won't work, right.

(01:01:29):
There's always that's always kind of crazyto me, but keeps it fun.
Is it saturated in the brewery market, do you think, or is it
right where it needs to be orbecause ultimately it feels like the change for
me, and I'm I'm selfish inthis regard because I think about what I
like. I have totally changed fromsomebody that appreciated the old school sports bar.

(01:01:52):
Going back to earlier in the conversationtoo, I will always prefer the
neighborhood brewpub of sorts, whether it'ssomebody that you know, like yourself as
you expand through distribution and you haveXYZ goal in that aspect of it,
or let's just pretend you're the taproom and this is the only place I
can get Elm Creek beer. IfI live near here and I have a

(01:02:13):
choice of restaurant a Jure or youguys, I'm gonna choose you guys every
time. And so in some waysI feel like there's a ton of breweries.
There was the boom. At onepoint I was reading articles about how
Minnesota was among per capita like topten in terms of states with craft independent
breweries in the state of Minnesota,which is cool, and then like,

(01:02:35):
well, there's too many of them. There's a we're getting saturated. I'm
like, I need more. Howdo you see it? I think we're
kind of flirting, like with theline that's like really comfortable right now.
It sucks that we've seen like acouple go down recently, a couple of
good ones too, which really isunfortunate. But I'm kind of in the
market where I wentdn't mind having acouple more up in this area. To

(01:02:58):
be totally honest, Like, Iagree, it's fun. Like it's nice
that like everyone is only five minutesapart from each other. I can't tell
you how many people like we justcame from Heavy Rotation, we just came
from Omni, we just came fromten k Yep. It's a it's a
fun little like I really like wherewe're at right now. And I'll say,
I think some of those people thatwrite those articles just like everything.
I think they're just looking for contentand they might be a little bit bored.

(01:03:20):
Right, it's easy to go,well, they found a rube like
me to click on it, right, So like it's like, oh,
oh there, Maybe then you goto you know, like you're saying you
go to a town. I thinkevery town. I mean can handle at
least one, right, I thinklike New Hope can handle one, Plaine
can handle them. Champlain like chanHassen. That's freaking two or three now,

(01:03:42):
right, yeah, chan ass andbrewing and then then you got fat
pants right in neat and prairie.But like aanky in Victoria, I don't
I don't think like if I'd muchrather if I whatever time I'm living in,
if they were like, oh there'sa new restaurant bar going up,
I'd much rather be a brewery thananother roadhouse. Yeah, like another yeah,

(01:04:03):
like somebody right, Like I'd ratherbe something like, Okay, these
people are going to commit to thecommunity. They're a little bit more invested,
like because I don't know, andI think there's there's still plenty of
room for other ones to grow.I think the size that you're at is
probably where I think if anybody goesbig, it'll be that big, right.
I don't think you're gonna see alot of places going to the Fulton

(01:04:25):
size, the Indeed size even like, I don't think you're gonna see a
lot of that anymore. I thinkyou're either gonna see your guys' size or
lower, which I think is perfectbecause you guys can hit all the distribution
stuff that you need to, youstill get the fresh tap room and you're
not like overly like all right,what do we do with barrels and barrels
and barrels of beer that we can'tsell, not because people don't want it,

(01:04:46):
we just have so much of it. Yeah, right, So,
and you don't want to be theguys just pouring a hundred kegs down the
drain, do you correct? Youdon't want to be those people definitely don't
want to be that. And soyeah, I think like saturated as is
a weird word for them to usebecause that makes it sound bad and that
things are going to fail, right, And I don't see that. And
that's why I brought it up,not trying to be adversarial enough like that,

(01:05:10):
but it's just again people like meon the outside of it, that
that was an angle that I saw. And you know, all booms reached
some sort of plateau at some point, and then whether it's innovation, it
is, sadly the the ebb andflow of the breweries themselves. Some come,
some go, always good times badtimes with that, but then but

(01:05:30):
then it grows again over the courseof time, and it was just it
was an interesting article that I hadread. But from my standpoint, again,
it's like I don't have enough,like I don't have enough options and
and and I'm not I would neverbring my dog here, by the way,
okay, because Archie can't handle himself. But again but but from from
the family standpoint, you can checkthat off the botch check that on the

(01:05:55):
box. You can check off theability to eat food here. Like,
it's not just it's not just craftbrew. It's as much an establishment that
welcomes in all kinds. I mean, we got Majong to our left,
we got shuffleboard to our right,and I'm stuck in the middle with you
guys, with us, Bud,thanks for hanging out with us, man,

(01:06:16):
Thanks for hosting us. This wasso cool, Vin, and I
appreciate you asking answering all my stupidquestions as I have. And if it's
not you, it's Ken. SoI got to ask somebody. So today
it was you, Mitch from ElmCreek Brewing. It was an absolute pleasure,
man, Thanks for coming down.Pleasures all mine. It was a
good time. Thanks to Mitch fromElm Creek Brewing for that badass beer and

(01:06:39):
conversation right off one sixty nine andChamplain. You can look for their beer
in liquor stores and restaurants throughout themetro and as they say, if you
don't see it, ask for it. That's Hops and Hoggs. I'm Nordo
and once again subscribe to the Hopsand Hoggs podcast on the free iHeartRadio app
or wherever you listen to these things. Until next time, cheers,