December 16, 2023 • 39 mins
Michael Sabbeth is a lawyer, lecturer, consultant and author. He lectures nationally and internationally on hunting and shooting ethics, rhetoric and the art of persuasion. Mr. Sabbeth consistently presents at International Hunter Education Association conferences, Texas Hunter Education Instructors Association and at major hunting and shooting conventions including Safari Club International, the Dallas Safari Club and the Namibia Professional Hunters Association.
He writes for about one dozen national and international print and on-line hunting and shooting magazines. He volunteers with organizations that support hunting and shooting opportunities for disabled people including veterans. He has written two books related to ethics and promoting hunting: “The Good, The Bad & The Difference: How to Talk with Children About Values” and “The Honorable Hunter: How to Honorably & Persuasively Defend & Promote Hunting”. Mr. Sabbeth lives in Denver, Colorado. His website is www.thehonorablehunter.com
He writes for about one dozen national and international print and on-line hunting and shooting magazines. He volunteers with organizations that support hunting and shooting opportunities for disabled people including veterans. He has written two books related to ethics and promoting hunting: “The Good, The Bad & The Difference: How to Talk with Children About Values” and “The Honorable Hunter: How to Honorably & Persuasively Defend & Promote Hunting”. Mr. Sabbeth lives in Denver, Colorado. His website is www.thehonorablehunter.com
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(00:02):
Tradition, conservation, family, theoutdoors. It matters to you, it
matters to us. This is HuntingMatters presented by Houston Safari Club Foundation.
Here's Joe Bitar. We should changeour intro music to Back in the Saddle
(00:23):
again like Harrismith. Why not,that's what that's I always want to say,
we're back. Yeah, that soundsgood to me. Honey Matters KPRC
nine to fifty. This is yourhost job, jam Ramon and Roubles.
We're almost there. We're into theChristmas side. Have you got all hair
on packages yet? Yeah? ButI still have more to order. It
was just this week I was talkingto my wife and you know, we're
(00:43):
obviously focused on our kids and eachother, and it dawn on me.
I haven't gotten anything for my parentsor my sister's nieces nephews. Yep.
It's you know, you don't wantthe season to become about buying presents and
being stressful in that regard. Buton the other hand, you don't want
to show up into empty handed.Yeah, well, you guys are banning
(01:03):
your family anyway. You're going toDisney for na, which is smart.
Well, we're getting together Christmas Eve. Oh, so there is going to
be exchanges. Although I guess Icould buy time and say, look,
guys, the presidents are going tobe bought at Disney. I'm going to
bring them back, right. Imight do that, or I might just
go gift cards. Yeah, isthat too? No, I have no
problem with gift cards, especially Amazongift cards. Yeah. Right, you
(01:25):
can get anything you want. Yeah, Amazon gift cards and money. I
mean, my kids are all grown. That's what we do. Yeah,
because they need cash more than yeah. Okay, I don't know. Probably
need therapy too, being your beingthat you're their father, You're correct,
sir, you can probably well,now that they've got online therapy, I
can just get them a gift cardfor that. You're welcome. Kids.
(01:48):
Let's see what's happening with the HoustonSaviari Club Foundation. The big conventions coming
folks, January nineteenth of the twentyfirst. We are moving, so please
do not drive to downtown Houston.We will be at the Woodlands Waterway.
Are at hotel and convention center outin the Woodlands, Texas. Banquets,
auctions, expos, live auctions,silent auctions, UH, free seminars.
(02:09):
This year, I got a bunchof experts in hunting and firearms and things
like that are gonna be doing freeseminars. You can check out everything.
Go to we hunt weegive dot org. Go to the convention drop down on
the attendees page. You can buyyour banquet tickets here, you can put
your hotel rooms there. I thinkit's gonna be a lot of fun time.
What day are you showing up?I'm gonna be there Thursday, Thursday?
(02:30):
Okay, so yeah, I guessyou're one to be ip first access
to the expo hall. I wantto see I can't. Are we still
doing the auction stuff? I meanthat's that's gonna happen. Oh yeah,
okay, I want to see thatthe Saturday nights when you need to be
there, is there a preview whereI get to see beforehand and kind of
map out want Starting next week,you can go to Online Hunting Auctions dot
com And thanks for the prompt.I was being half facetious, but I
(02:53):
like this. Go to Online HuntingAuctions dot com and type in Houston Safari
Club Foundation and you will see fourauctions. There will be one for Friday,
one for Gazelle's or one for Saturdayand then an online only auction with
a few items on that as well. Okay, but thanks for the prompt.
Yeah, you and your wife shouldget all dressed up and come down
for the Do we have to getdressed up? Black tie optional? Saturday
night? Friday night's more laid backSaturday nights when it's really going to get
(03:16):
off, the off the shade,off, the hook off the hunter's say.
Yeah, you safari folks, yep, y'all know how to let loose,
and we do, we do,and then after conventions over if we
all survive it. February seventeenth,we're doing our ninth annual European style Pheasant
shoot out in Waller, Texas.Now that's when y'all smoke thin cigarettes and
wear berets. That's what makes iteurope Speaking of French accent, Yeah,
(03:38):
that's what makes it Europeans. Stillit kills young feet, Leo leod in
La Sky, let's shoot it withgun. That's probably not what European hunting.
No French friends are gonna come slapme in the face and they hear
that impersonation. Anyway, go towe we give dot org check out all
(04:00):
the upcoming events and sign up.For membership. While are you there,
We'd love for you to sign willbe a member and come to one of
our monthly events. Also, justwant to let our listeners know if you
want a fifty dollars Bass Pro Shopsor Cabella's gift card, you can do
that by listening to podcasts. Justsupport Subscribe to the Hunting Matters podcast on
any platform you listen to the showon, leave a review, screenshot that
(04:20):
review and send it to info atwee hunt we give dot org and you
will be bridged to win a fiftydollars Bass Pro Shops gift card. So
not bad, not bad, notbad at all. All right, do
you have your legal mind in checktoday? And I'm about to Okay,
yeah, I'm about to so.Our guest today is a gentleman by the
name of Michael G. Sabbath.I'm curious to find out what the G
(04:43):
stands for. I'm going to sayit's a probably gangster. Michael is a
lawyer, lecture consultant, and author. I want to talk a little bit
about his legal background, but healso speaks specifically on hunting and shooting ethics
and the art of persuasion as itapplies to a place to the hunting conversation,
I guess if you will, whichis something we talk about often.
So Michael, thank you so muchfor joining us. My pleasure, My
(05:06):
pleasure. Michael. You are anattorney by trade, correct, That is
correct? And what kind of lawdid you start, entered or practice over
your career? Well evolved, itchanged over the decades. I maybe the
first ten or fifteen years, twelveyears, I specialized in what's called criminal
(05:30):
defense law and then kind of transitions. The only transitioning I've been doing into
more of what's called civil liability lawand then a personal injury and then into
(05:59):
trusts will probate litigation in those areas. Uh, it's it's it's changed over
the many, many decades. Andwhere you Where are you living now?
Michael? I am in south Denverin an area of the little of Cherry
Hills Village, Englewood. It's notin the city and County of Denver,
(06:25):
but it's it's about half a milethree quarters of a mile from the border
of Denver to the south. Right. Okay, okay, We're going to
talk a little bit. There's alot of topics you threw over to me.
Where we were kind of preparing forthe for this podcast today, but
there were several topics I want tocover today. But how in the world
does an attorney with a criminal defense, civil liability, personal injury background get
(06:46):
involved in hunting and talking about hunting. It's a good question. I will
try to abbreviate it. A bitof background. I grew up on Long
Island and New York, and oneof the activities that I enjoyed very much
(07:14):
was shooting rifles. I remember beingnine, ten, eleven years old and
my mom and dad taken me towhat was called the boardwalk in Brighton Beach
and so on, and more thananything else, I enjoyed shooting those gallery
rifles, little twenty two shorts.And then I joined I became a boy
(07:39):
scout, and I really enjoyed themarksmanship and riflery, and my dad bought
me a twenty two bolt action rifle. It's a Mossburg forty four LS.
I still have that rifle. Iwas thirteen years old and I used that
(08:01):
rifle to get my first merit edgeon the way to becoming an eagle Scout.
Hold that thought, Michael, Holdthat thought, right there, we're
gonna have to take a quick break. Here. We'll pick it up on
the other side. On Honeymatters kPrC nine Hippy Southern Night, Almost Heaven,
(08:30):
West Virginia. The ride Mouth Tennanof the River lives older older than
the three under than Mouth bro TheLady County bake me hold in Wellco Back
(09:13):
to Honey Matters on KPRC nine fifty. This is Joe Bitar. I am
Ramon Robless. You're joined today byMichael G. Sabbath. Michael is a
lawyer, lecture consultant, and nowan author, which we're going to talk
about in just a minute. Michael, thanks once again for joining us.
My pleasure. So we left itbefore we went to the break you were
about to. You were discussing yourintroduction to firearms and your use of them
(09:35):
as you became an eagle scout.Let's pick it up from there. Yeah.
So I really enjoyed shooting, andI had my first rifle, this
Mossburg, which I still have andit's in mint condition. And then life
goes on and I graduated from highschool, went to college in Williamstown,
(09:58):
Massachusetts, and ended up in Colorado. And shortly after I came to Colorado
I met a guy who loved skeetontrapshooting, so I began doing that quite
intermittently, but I enjoyed immensely.And I remember my first shotgun was a
(10:22):
Barretta trap gun, and who wouldhave known that Barretta would become a very
important component of my life as awriter and in my travels. But what
got me into the topics that Inow lecture on and that I've written on
(10:46):
it was the consequence of the backgroundof another of another activity or venture that
I did, and that was Icreated a continuing legal education program seminars for
lawyers on the ethics of rhetoric.That was the title, The Ethics of
(11:09):
Rhetoric, an Advanced Advocacy Skill.And I had the good fortune of being
joined in my first many years teachingthis course by a dear friend, Federal
Judge John Caine, one of themost brilliant people I've ever met, and
(11:33):
I think that's saying something. Andwe put on these seminars, and then
I kind of took it nationally,lectured in several other states as well as
continuing to do it in Colorado.Then what happened was, I think it
was in the year twenty twelve,it seems like a lifetime ago. Colorado,
(11:56):
the legislature began passing a blizzard ofwhat might be called anti hunting or
anti shooting legislation, and it wascertainly discussed in the legislature, like red
(12:18):
flag laws and limiting magazine capacities andrequiring waiting periods. It was just a
whole bunch of stuff. And Irealized that the hunting community, the shooting
communities such as it is, howeveryou wanted to define it, was not
(12:41):
making the best arguments to advance theircause and to refute the propositions asserted against
them. And at that time Isomehow met the man who was then the
(13:03):
director of Hunter Education in Colorado,and we became close friends, and he
got me lecturing throughout the state ofColorado for several years on precisely those issues
of argument and persuasion and refutation andthe analysis of assertions and logical fallacies and
(13:31):
the skill of rhetoric. And itwas I think in early or sometime in
twenty thirteen I met Steve Hall,who was then the executive director of the
International Hunter Education Association, and Stevegot me involved in teaching all over Texas
(13:58):
and now. Steve Hall is thedirector of Hunter Education for the Texas Parks
and Wildlife and through him, I'vemet extraordinary people in the Texas hunting community,
particularly people doing absolutely marvelous work withyouth hunters, Texas Youth Hunters of
(14:22):
Texas Youth Hunting Programs and so forth. And it was Steve Hall who actually
encouraged me to write that book,The Honorable Hunters. The title is is
phrased as an instructor manual. Thatmay be a little bit limiting because it's
(14:43):
it's more than that, but thathad those series of perhaps whimsical or certainly
favorably faithful introduction and just got meto being where I am, and I'm
(15:05):
pleased to say, and I sayit with humility. I've I've presented in
many states in the United States andthree or four provinces in Canada, and
several times to the Namibia Professional HuntersAssociation. In fact, a year ago,
this very day, I was inNamibia. I had given a couple
(15:28):
of lectures there, a couple oftalks, and so it goes on and
I write for oh, I don'tknow, maybe a dozen hunting and shooting
magazines, not every month, forall of them, but many and I've
spoken at the Dallas Safari Club andthe Safari Club International for many, many
(15:52):
years. So that's kind of theevolution, the serendipity of getting me to
where I am now. Regarding whatyou and I are talking about, perfect
that sounds like a fantastic journey,folks. I'm going to give you Michael's
website then, the Honorable Hunter dotcom is where you can find out more
(16:15):
information about Michael and his writings andhis lectures. I mean you alluded to
it earlier. You wrote a bookcalled The Honorable Hunter, How to honorably
and persuasively defend and Promote Hunting.What was that process like? Was that
something you've been mulling over for years? Did somebody push you to do it
and kind of give me some insightabout how that came to be. Well,
(16:37):
it's a good question. I tryto be a concise with an answer.
Certainly, whatever I wrote was thedistill It the product of many many
years of reading, researching, refiningarguments and a lecturing and as I said,
(17:00):
a moment ago, I was encouragedby Steve Hall at that time,
this was just two years ago.I think to it. He was even
then the director of hunter Education atTexas Parks and Wildlife, and I came
to various conclusions which I inspired meto write the book. I mean,
(17:27):
after all, many times I havebeen asked, why are you some guy
from Brooklyn who isn't a dedicated hunter? Why are you so interested in this
topic? Why do you spend somuch time promoting hunting? Hold that thought
right there, Michael, We're goingto We're up against a heartbreak here,
(17:48):
but I want to do a deepdive into that here in our next segment,
Folks would join us today on theHunting Matters program. Our guest is
Michael G. Sabbath. Check outthe website at the Honorable hunter dot com.
We'll be back after this break.Honeymatters KPRC nine fifty. Say goodbye.
(18:22):
We were born before the wind,also younger than the sun, and
the bonnyboat was one got me sailinto the mystic Welcome back to Honeymatter's KPRC
nine fifty. This is Joe Bitur. I am Ramon Roeblis. You names
(18:45):
today is Michael Sabbath. Michael isa lawyer, lecture consultant and an author.
We were just talking about before wewent into the break, his book
The Honorable Hunter and the Kind ofthe impetus behind how that book came to
be. Michael, thanks once againfor joining us. It's my it's my
pleasure. I think where we leftoff, I was saying, how I
(19:06):
got into this. I am nota I don't do much hunting, but
I believe in hunting, and Ihave the intensity or my commitment to hunting
as has increased as I became moreeducated. But what I came to understand,
(19:32):
at least within my value system,is that hunting is really metaphoric for
many other values and an entire politicaleconomy system. You know what makes hunting
possible in the United States, Well, every hunter ed instructor and every hunter
(19:52):
ed student knows or should know aboutthe North American model and Teddy Roosevelt and
so forth. A public acts saysthe hunting and hunting is the game is
owned by the people, rather thanas a sovereign or a king. But
that's only the beginning. It's whatI call the big picture, And the
(20:15):
big picture is that hunting only survivesbecause we have a political economy which gives
us the right to own a firearm. The right to use it, the
right to possess it. We havean economic system which by and large gives
us enough surplus income, surplus wealthto go travel around by hunting licenses and
(20:38):
buy bows and arrows and rifles andshotguns. It's been accepted culturally thus far.
So to me, once again,the hunting is just a metaphor for
these larger freedoms. It's a metalfor for liberty, it's a metaphor for
(21:02):
individual rights. It's a metaphor forpersonal responsibility and discipline. And so I
came to understand, or I cameto the conclusion that there is another There
are other aspects in teaching hunter educationor dealing with youth, and that was
(21:25):
developing character and making these kids stronger, and to that matter, helping instructors
become more persuasive and effective narrators andinfluencers in the hunting community. And so
I talk about how do you makekids stronger? How do you make them
(21:48):
more competent. The more competent ayoungster is, then the more confident that
youngster is, and the more confidentthat youngster is, the greater the ability
to stand up for hunting, tostand up for shooting. Uh to defend
against attacks about hunting and being calleda murderer and how can you kill those
(22:11):
beautiful animals? Uh? And tothen master the rhetoric and master the arguments
showing the fatuousness, the the vacuityof the anti hunting attacks, such as
the people accusing let's call talk abouta young hunter killing and killing an animal
(22:36):
and saying, hey, you know, how do you how you're a murderer?
And while that person is eating hamburgersin steak and turkey for Thanksgiving and
hand for whatever. And so itis the the the flaudulent, the dishonest
(22:56):
approach of so much of the antihunt being attack, where the anti hunter
is actually outsourcing his or her immorality. He thinks he or she thinks that
hunting is immoral, but has otherpeople doing the hunting for him or for
(23:18):
her. And those arguments should beingrained, and they should be asserted with
confidence. And youngsters, I thinkare desperate to learn how to defend themselves
(23:42):
and how to become stronger people.And of course, if you can,
the skills are universal, you applythem anywhere in life. You become a
better student, you become a betterfather, you become a better mother.
You become a better city by masteringthese skills and standing up for yourself.
(24:07):
That's how you gain personal strength,by being able to assert yourself and take
a position and defend it. Andthat is vitally important, particularly in our
culture now, where so many ofour institutions and freedoms and liberties are under
(24:29):
viporous, venomous attacks. And soI argue in my lectures, in my
writing, I argue that if thehunter can see how hunting makes him or
horror a better person, a strongerperson, a more moral person, then
(24:56):
that individual will become a dedicated hunter, even if he or she never hunts.
Yeah, you know, we don'ttalk about it and have these conversations
just guys and gal sitting around thecampfire hunting and things like that about all
these things you're talking about as faras strength and the art of rhetoric and
the ability to use those things aswell. But I think that one point
(25:18):
that you just made that really jumpsout at me is that you know,
getting getting younger kids, young adultseven you know, involved in the outdoors
and allowing their confidence to build.Uh, you know, I think it
personally, speaking from one side ofthe argument, here, But I personally
think I agree with you in thefact that it seems to make them more
(25:41):
confident and more independent and better independentdecision makers for life all the way around,
versus just hunting. You know.Yes, that's why I say hunting
is for me metaphoric. It isjust one example of integrating into a larger
scope of life, the larger frameworkof life, and the skills are pervasive
(26:11):
and they're universal, and they're applicablein any facet of life, in any
facet of your life. I meanlearning how to use words, learning how
to craft an argument. For example, I claim, I assert that in
(26:32):
making arguments, we always have tofocus on the morality of an argument,
and fortunately hunters have the more moralargument. We have better arguments. We
just don't as a general rule.I'm making a generalized statement. I emphasize
that we don't make our case asa lawyer would say, we don't make
(26:57):
our case very well. To thecontrary, youngsters are intimidated. They're fearful.
The peer group pressure, such asit is is, can be overwhelming,
and so they they tend to besecretive. They self censor, They
(27:19):
avoid talking about hunting and and andthe virtues of hunting, and those are
issues that I address, and Ican tell you I'm pleased to tell you
of these youngsters welcome it. Theythey absorb it like a sponge because they
(27:45):
know it's making them stronger people.They know it's making them better people.
I have dozens of examples where youngstershave told me how they have learned how
to stand up to their fellow studentswho attack them. And then they go
on the offense and they say,do you understand what wildlife management is?
(28:11):
Do you understand how animals die?Like in Cecil, the lion he only
had another year or two in life, which is a whole other topic,
you know. And to master therhetoric, Let's say with Cecil, say
which do you prefer, fifty thousanddollars going into a local community or a
(28:38):
lion that's going to die in ayear or two anyway and there is no
economic gain, which do you prefer? You cannot equivocate, you cannot euphemize,
you cannot contextualize. Which do youprefer A or B? Yep,
(29:02):
that's uh, that's you. Listen, man, you're speaking our language here.
We're going to take a quick breakhere. But if you'll indulgence.
We're going to move into this lastsegment here. If Vermond and I have
a question, we want to runyou through an exercise. Taking a break
here on Honey Matters kPr C ninefifty Chestnuts roasting on an open five jack
(29:41):
fro por chest at, I said, poor chest Yeah, I like to
playing off the air. This isone of my favorite Christmas. Yeah,
it's my favorite of all time.I tell my kids. They asked me,
I say, this is it?This is it. I don't know
if it's one I could hear allthe time and listen to all the time.
But if I had to put onein a uh uh, what do
you call it? You bury itin the ground and you time capital it
(30:03):
would be this way. Yeah,there's something. I don't know what the
word is, but you know whenI hear it, I feel it.
Yeah, I can feel. Ohhere's Christmas. Yeah, yeah, I
love it. That's good. Loveit. Back on Honting Matters KPRC and
nine to fifty. Our guest todayis Michael Sabbath. Ramona and I are
getting all mushy here and well itreally turned mushy when you grabbed my knee
(30:25):
and started petting it anyway. Uh, I think you had a question for
Michael. For those of you justjoining us, you've missed three segments of
a phenomenal show. We've learned alot bit, Ramona. I think you
had a question. Well, Idon't want to take too much of the
show away from Michael. Michael,if in about a minute or two,
if somebody came up and said,you're not hunting, you're going out,
and you're killing Bambie, how wouldyou kind of turn that around and explain
(30:47):
to them what's really happening. That'san excellent That's an excellent question. It's
an excellent question on several levels.I'm not trying to be forming here.
It's so happens that I give acomplete talk on Bambi and the need for
the hunting community to do what Icall de vamplification of wildlife. And I
(31:17):
would turn it around by asking questions. I ask questions. I look for
clarity. That is such a vitallyimportant concept. Clarity. What do you
know about how animals die? Whatdo you know about wasting disease? What
do you know about predation? Whatdo you know about the origins of the
(31:42):
leather seats in your Mercedes, andyour wallet and your notebooks and your briefcases
and your shoes. And where doesthe turkey come from for your Thanksgiving?
And how do you make these marvelousfilet mignon with a nice cream peppercorn sauce
flamed in cognac. How does thatcome about? Would you support hunting under
(32:10):
certain definable facts that you accept?And I will give you an example.
It is perhaps the quintessential example ofthe success of persuasion, and it occurred
six years ago, almost to theday, when I was lecturing in Namibia,
(32:34):
and I was visiting one of thefarms or ranches of a woman who
has become a dear friend. Maybeyou folks know her, the mean vander
west Tisen of aru Aaru Aru Safaris. Anyway, I was a guest at
her ranch and a man came upto me. He was a surgeon from
(32:55):
Poland. He was there flying glassplanes and came up and very graciously asked
me what I was going to bespeaking about. He knew that much about
me, because two or three dayslater I was giving my talks in Windtook,
which was maybe one hundred miles fromthe ranch, and he was a
(33:21):
serious man. He's an intelligent man, and so I tried to explain.
I knew he's a European, andI figured he was an anti hunter,
And so I talked about the DallasSafari Club auction of the black rhinoceros hunt,
which was in twenty thirteen, andI happened to be at the banquet
(33:46):
in Dallas when that was when theauction was finalized, and the black rhino
came from that very ranch, theNimes ranch, And so I asked this,
told this man the facts. Youalways go to the facts, and
(34:06):
then you discuss the morality of theconsequences of policies that affect those facts.
And I told this surgeon how theblack lihino that was selected for the hunt
had already killed five juvenile rhinos.I explained how the money would be hundreds
(34:32):
of thousands of dollars would be raisedfor the outfitters, for the government,
for the communities. It would helpadvance a water treatment project, it would
help schools, it would provide food, and I went through the laundry list
of what this specific hunting experience wouldachieve. This man looked at me as
(35:02):
I said, he's a serious guy. He's no fool. He looked at
me, he said, I'm nota hunter. I am against hunting,
but I would support this hunt.I would support it. I changed his
mind. He now became open.And I'll just tell you that by incredible
(35:30):
coincidence, when I was there lastyear at the AUL, he was there
again and I told him how importanthis name is, Jersey. I told
Jersey how important that brief discussion hadbecome in my writing, my lecturing,
(35:51):
my teaching. And he was delighted. He was delighted. It wasn't a
matter, said, you know,I was wrong. Then he was delighted.
So the way you deal with thatkind of attack is you go to
facts and say do you understand this? You look for clarity, not to
(36:15):
argue, not to argue, notto try to beat somebody up. For
example, here's the quintessential example.I think that is irrefutable, irrefutable in
terms of defending hunting. Ask thequestion do you brush your teeth? It
(36:37):
seems innocent enough, doesn't it.Do you brush your teeth? The great
majority of people will say, yeah, sure of course I did. Then
I follow up, I say whywhy do you do it? Well,
obviously, as the discussion untold.You brush your teeth because you value your
(36:57):
teeth. You want them to besustained, you want to keep them.
The teeth have value. You protectwhat you value. You disregard what you
do not value. That is whyyou do not have a collection of McDonald's
(37:21):
paper cases for Hia Hamburg. Well, you haven't looked at the back of
Ramon's truck, so you don't value. How this is the most fundamental law
of all human activity. You preservewhat you value. How can it be
different in hunting? How can itbe different? If the animals have no
(37:46):
value, they will be destroyed,they will be poached, they will be
eliminated. And so you have allthese hunting bands, you have these import
bands on trophies and so on.All they do is reduce the value the
United Kingdom, which is neither It'sneither united nor is it a kingdom.
(38:09):
Uh a ban on. Let's say, lion trophies has killed more lions than
a thousand Walter palmers with cecil.Those are the argument, and you make
them with confidence, You make themin a focused, powerful way, and
(38:32):
you say you you, you askyour opponent, your your interlocutor, whoever
you're talking to, try and refutethat. That's how do you Yeah,
that's just I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that's uh, that's a phenomenal
standpoint, and you've given a Ronanand I both a lot to think about.
(38:53):
Unfortunately, we're out of time thisweek, folks are hunting. Our
guest today has been Michael G.Sabbath. Check out the honorable hunter dot
com. You guys, have agreat holiday season. We will see you
next time on Hunting Matters kp rC nine fifty
Tradition, conservation, family, theoutdoors. It matters to you, it
matters to us. This is HuntingMatters presented by Houston Safari Club Foundation.
Here's Joe Bitar. We should changeour intro music to Back in the Saddle
(00:23):
again like Harrismith. Why not,that's what that's I always want to say,
we're back. Yeah, that soundsgood to me. Honey Matters KPRC
nine to fifty. This is yourhost job, jam Ramon and Roubles.
We're almost there. We're into theChristmas side. Have you got all hair
on packages yet? Yeah? ButI still have more to order. It
was just this week I was talkingto my wife and you know, we're
(00:43):
obviously focused on our kids and eachother, and it dawn on me.
I haven't gotten anything for my parentsor my sister's nieces nephews. Yep.
It's you know, you don't wantthe season to become about buying presents and
being stressful in that regard. Buton the other hand, you don't want
to show up into empty handed.Yeah, well, you guys are banning
(01:03):
your family anyway. You're going toDisney for na, which is smart.
Well, we're getting together Christmas Eve. Oh, so there is going to
be exchanges. Although I guess Icould buy time and say, look,
guys, the presidents are going tobe bought at Disney. I'm going to
bring them back, right. Imight do that, or I might just
go gift cards. Yeah, isthat too? No, I have no
problem with gift cards, especially Amazongift cards. Yeah. Right, you
(01:25):
can get anything you want. Yeah, Amazon gift cards and money. I
mean, my kids are all grown. That's what we do. Yeah,
because they need cash more than yeah. Okay, I don't know. Probably
need therapy too, being your beingthat you're their father, You're correct,
sir, you can probably well,now that they've got online therapy, I
can just get them a gift cardfor that. You're welcome. Kids.
(01:48):
Let's see what's happening with the HoustonSaviari Club Foundation. The big conventions coming
folks, January nineteenth of the twentyfirst. We are moving, so please
do not drive to downtown Houston.We will be at the Woodlands Waterway.
Are at hotel and convention center outin the Woodlands, Texas. Banquets,
auctions, expos, live auctions,silent auctions, UH, free seminars.
(02:09):
This year, I got a bunchof experts in hunting and firearms and things
like that are gonna be doing freeseminars. You can check out everything.
Go to we hunt weegive dot org. Go to the convention drop down on
the attendees page. You can buyyour banquet tickets here, you can put
your hotel rooms there. I thinkit's gonna be a lot of fun time.
What day are you showing up?I'm gonna be there Thursday, Thursday?
(02:30):
Okay, so yeah, I guessyou're one to be ip first access
to the expo hall. I wantto see I can't. Are we still
doing the auction stuff? I meanthat's that's gonna happen. Oh yeah,
okay, I want to see thatthe Saturday nights when you need to be
there, is there a preview whereI get to see beforehand and kind of
map out want Starting next week,you can go to Online Hunting Auctions dot
com And thanks for the prompt.I was being half facetious, but I
(02:53):
like this. Go to Online HuntingAuctions dot com and type in Houston Safari
Club Foundation and you will see fourauctions. There will be one for Friday,
one for Gazelle's or one for Saturdayand then an online only auction with
a few items on that as well. Okay, but thanks for the prompt.
Yeah, you and your wife shouldget all dressed up and come down
for the Do we have to getdressed up? Black tie optional? Saturday
night? Friday night's more laid backSaturday nights when it's really going to get
(03:16):
off, the off the shade,off, the hook off the hunter's say.
Yeah, you safari folks, yep, y'all know how to let loose,
and we do, we do,and then after conventions over if we
all survive it. February seventeenth,we're doing our ninth annual European style Pheasant
shoot out in Waller, Texas.Now that's when y'all smoke thin cigarettes and
wear berets. That's what makes iteurope Speaking of French accent, Yeah,
(03:38):
that's what makes it Europeans. Stillit kills young feet, Leo leod in
La Sky, let's shoot it withgun. That's probably not what European hunting.
No French friends are gonna come slapme in the face and they hear
that impersonation. Anyway, go towe we give dot org check out all
(04:00):
the upcoming events and sign up.For membership. While are you there,
We'd love for you to sign willbe a member and come to one of
our monthly events. Also, justwant to let our listeners know if you
want a fifty dollars Bass Pro Shopsor Cabella's gift card, you can do
that by listening to podcasts. Justsupport Subscribe to the Hunting Matters podcast on
any platform you listen to the showon, leave a review, screenshot that
(04:20):
review and send it to info atwee hunt we give dot org and you
will be bridged to win a fiftydollars Bass Pro Shops gift card. So
not bad, not bad, notbad at all. All right, do
you have your legal mind in checktoday? And I'm about to Okay,
yeah, I'm about to so.Our guest today is a gentleman by the
name of Michael G. Sabbath.I'm curious to find out what the G
(04:43):
stands for. I'm going to sayit's a probably gangster. Michael is a
lawyer, lecture consultant, and author. I want to talk a little bit
about his legal background, but healso speaks specifically on hunting and shooting ethics
and the art of persuasion as itapplies to a place to the hunting conversation,
I guess if you will, whichis something we talk about often.
So Michael, thank you so muchfor joining us. My pleasure, My
(05:06):
pleasure. Michael. You are anattorney by trade, correct, That is
correct? And what kind of lawdid you start, entered or practice over
your career? Well evolved, itchanged over the decades. I maybe the
first ten or fifteen years, twelveyears, I specialized in what's called criminal
(05:30):
defense law and then kind of transitions. The only transitioning I've been doing into
more of what's called civil liability lawand then a personal injury and then into
(05:59):
trusts will probate litigation in those areas. Uh, it's it's it's changed over
the many, many decades. Andwhere you Where are you living now?
Michael? I am in south Denverin an area of the little of Cherry
Hills Village, Englewood. It's notin the city and County of Denver,
(06:25):
but it's it's about half a milethree quarters of a mile from the border
of Denver to the south. Right. Okay, okay, We're going to
talk a little bit. There's alot of topics you threw over to me.
Where we were kind of preparing forthe for this podcast today, but
there were several topics I want tocover today. But how in the world
does an attorney with a criminal defense, civil liability, personal injury background get
(06:46):
involved in hunting and talking about hunting. It's a good question. I will
try to abbreviate it. A bitof background. I grew up on Long
Island and New York, and oneof the activities that I enjoyed very much
(07:14):
was shooting rifles. I remember beingnine, ten, eleven years old and
my mom and dad taken me towhat was called the boardwalk in Brighton Beach
and so on, and more thananything else, I enjoyed shooting those gallery
rifles, little twenty two shorts.And then I joined I became a boy
(07:39):
scout, and I really enjoyed themarksmanship and riflery, and my dad bought
me a twenty two bolt action rifle. It's a Mossburg forty four LS.
I still have that rifle. Iwas thirteen years old and I used that
(08:01):
rifle to get my first merit edgeon the way to becoming an eagle Scout.
Hold that thought, Michael, Holdthat thought, right there, we're
gonna have to take a quick break. Here. We'll pick it up on
the other side. On Honeymatters kPrC nine Hippy Southern Night, Almost Heaven,
(08:30):
West Virginia. The ride Mouth Tennanof the River lives older older than
the three under than Mouth bro TheLady County bake me hold in Wellco Back
(09:13):
to Honey Matters on KPRC nine fifty. This is Joe Bitar. I am
Ramon Robless. You're joined today byMichael G. Sabbath. Michael is a
lawyer, lecture consultant, and nowan author, which we're going to talk
about in just a minute. Michael, thanks once again for joining us.
My pleasure. So we left itbefore we went to the break you were
about to. You were discussing yourintroduction to firearms and your use of them
(09:35):
as you became an eagle scout.Let's pick it up from there. Yeah.
So I really enjoyed shooting, andI had my first rifle, this
Mossburg, which I still have andit's in mint condition. And then life
goes on and I graduated from highschool, went to college in Williamstown,
(09:58):
Massachusetts, and ended up in Colorado. And shortly after I came to Colorado
I met a guy who loved skeetontrapshooting, so I began doing that quite
intermittently, but I enjoyed immensely.And I remember my first shotgun was a
(10:22):
Barretta trap gun, and who wouldhave known that Barretta would become a very
important component of my life as awriter and in my travels. But what
got me into the topics that Inow lecture on and that I've written on
(10:46):
it was the consequence of the backgroundof another of another activity or venture that
I did, and that was Icreated a continuing legal education program seminars for
lawyers on the ethics of rhetoric.That was the title, The Ethics of
(11:09):
Rhetoric, an Advanced Advocacy Skill.And I had the good fortune of being
joined in my first many years teachingthis course by a dear friend, Federal
Judge John Caine, one of themost brilliant people I've ever met, and
(11:33):
I think that's saying something. Andwe put on these seminars, and then
I kind of took it nationally,lectured in several other states as well as
continuing to do it in Colorado.Then what happened was, I think it
was in the year twenty twelve,it seems like a lifetime ago. Colorado,
(11:56):
the legislature began passing a blizzard ofwhat might be called anti hunting or
anti shooting legislation, and it wascertainly discussed in the legislature, like red
(12:18):
flag laws and limiting magazine capacities andrequiring waiting periods. It was just a
whole bunch of stuff. And Irealized that the hunting community, the shooting
communities such as it is, howeveryou wanted to define it, was not
(12:41):
making the best arguments to advance theircause and to refute the propositions asserted against
them. And at that time Isomehow met the man who was then the
(13:03):
director of Hunter Education in Colorado,and we became close friends, and he
got me lecturing throughout the state ofColorado for several years on precisely those issues
of argument and persuasion and refutation andthe analysis of assertions and logical fallacies and
(13:31):
the skill of rhetoric. And itwas I think in early or sometime in
twenty thirteen I met Steve Hall,who was then the executive director of the
International Hunter Education Association, and Stevegot me involved in teaching all over Texas
(13:58):
and now. Steve Hall is thedirector of Hunter Education for the Texas Parks
and Wildlife and through him, I'vemet extraordinary people in the Texas hunting community,
particularly people doing absolutely marvelous work withyouth hunters, Texas Youth Hunters of
(14:22):
Texas Youth Hunting Programs and so forth. And it was Steve Hall who actually
encouraged me to write that book,The Honorable Hunters. The title is is
phrased as an instructor manual. Thatmay be a little bit limiting because it's
(14:43):
it's more than that, but thathad those series of perhaps whimsical or certainly
favorably faithful introduction and just got meto being where I am, and I'm
(15:05):
pleased to say, and I sayit with humility. I've I've presented in
many states in the United States andthree or four provinces in Canada, and
several times to the Namibia Professional HuntersAssociation. In fact, a year ago,
this very day, I was inNamibia. I had given a couple
(15:28):
of lectures there, a couple oftalks, and so it goes on and
I write for oh, I don'tknow, maybe a dozen hunting and shooting
magazines, not every month, forall of them, but many and I've
spoken at the Dallas Safari Club andthe Safari Club International for many, many
(15:52):
years. So that's kind of theevolution, the serendipity of getting me to
where I am now. Regarding whatyou and I are talking about, perfect
that sounds like a fantastic journey,folks. I'm going to give you Michael's
website then, the Honorable Hunter dotcom is where you can find out more
(16:15):
information about Michael and his writings andhis lectures. I mean you alluded to
it earlier. You wrote a bookcalled The Honorable Hunter, How to honorably
and persuasively defend and Promote Hunting.What was that process like? Was that
something you've been mulling over for years? Did somebody push you to do it
and kind of give me some insightabout how that came to be. Well,
(16:37):
it's a good question. I tryto be a concise with an answer.
Certainly, whatever I wrote was thedistill It the product of many many
years of reading, researching, refiningarguments and a lecturing and as I said,
(17:00):
a moment ago, I was encouragedby Steve Hall at that time,
this was just two years ago.I think to it. He was even
then the director of hunter Education atTexas Parks and Wildlife, and I came
to various conclusions which I inspired meto write the book. I mean,
(17:27):
after all, many times I havebeen asked, why are you some guy
from Brooklyn who isn't a dedicated hunter? Why are you so interested in this
topic? Why do you spend somuch time promoting hunting? Hold that thought
right there, Michael, We're goingto We're up against a heartbreak here,
(17:48):
but I want to do a deepdive into that here in our next segment,
Folks would join us today on theHunting Matters program. Our guest is
Michael G. Sabbath. Check outthe website at the Honorable hunter dot com.
We'll be back after this break.Honeymatters KPRC nine fifty. Say goodbye.
(18:22):
We were born before the wind,also younger than the sun, and
the bonnyboat was one got me sailinto the mystic Welcome back to Honeymatter's KPRC
nine fifty. This is Joe Bitur. I am Ramon Roeblis. You names
(18:45):
today is Michael Sabbath. Michael isa lawyer, lecture consultant and an author.
We were just talking about before wewent into the break, his book
The Honorable Hunter and the Kind ofthe impetus behind how that book came to
be. Michael, thanks once againfor joining us. It's my it's my
pleasure. I think where we leftoff, I was saying, how I
(19:06):
got into this. I am nota I don't do much hunting, but
I believe in hunting, and Ihave the intensity or my commitment to hunting
as has increased as I became moreeducated. But what I came to understand,
(19:32):
at least within my value system,is that hunting is really metaphoric for
many other values and an entire politicaleconomy system. You know what makes hunting
possible in the United States, Well, every hunter ed instructor and every hunter
(19:52):
ed student knows or should know aboutthe North American model and Teddy Roosevelt and
so forth. A public acts saysthe hunting and hunting is the game is
owned by the people, rather thanas a sovereign or a king. But
that's only the beginning. It's whatI call the big picture, And the
(20:15):
big picture is that hunting only survivesbecause we have a political economy which gives
us the right to own a firearm. The right to use it, the
right to possess it. We havean economic system which by and large gives
us enough surplus income, surplus wealthto go travel around by hunting licenses and
(20:38):
buy bows and arrows and rifles andshotguns. It's been accepted culturally thus far.
So to me, once again,the hunting is just a metaphor for
these larger freedoms. It's a metalfor for liberty, it's a metaphor for
(21:02):
individual rights. It's a metaphor forpersonal responsibility and discipline. And so I
came to understand, or I cameto the conclusion that there is another There
are other aspects in teaching hunter educationor dealing with youth, and that was
(21:25):
developing character and making these kids stronger, and to that matter, helping instructors
become more persuasive and effective narrators andinfluencers in the hunting community. And so
I talk about how do you makekids stronger? How do you make them
(21:48):
more competent. The more competent ayoungster is, then the more confident that
youngster is, and the more confidentthat youngster is, the greater the ability
to stand up for hunting, tostand up for shooting. Uh to defend
against attacks about hunting and being calleda murderer and how can you kill those
(22:11):
beautiful animals? Uh? And tothen master the rhetoric and master the arguments
showing the fatuousness, the the vacuityof the anti hunting attacks, such as
the people accusing let's call talk abouta young hunter killing and killing an animal
(22:36):
and saying, hey, you know, how do you how you're a murderer?
And while that person is eating hamburgersin steak and turkey for Thanksgiving and
hand for whatever. And so itis the the the flaudulent, the dishonest
(22:56):
approach of so much of the antihunt being attack, where the anti hunter
is actually outsourcing his or her immorality. He thinks he or she thinks that
hunting is immoral, but has otherpeople doing the hunting for him or for
(23:18):
her. And those arguments should beingrained, and they should be asserted with
confidence. And youngsters, I thinkare desperate to learn how to defend themselves
(23:42):
and how to become stronger people.And of course, if you can,
the skills are universal, you applythem anywhere in life. You become a
better student, you become a betterfather, you become a better mother.
You become a better city by masteringthese skills and standing up for yourself.
(24:07):
That's how you gain personal strength,by being able to assert yourself and take
a position and defend it. Andthat is vitally important, particularly in our
culture now, where so many ofour institutions and freedoms and liberties are under
(24:29):
viporous, venomous attacks. And soI argue in my lectures, in my
writing, I argue that if thehunter can see how hunting makes him or
horror a better person, a strongerperson, a more moral person, then
(24:56):
that individual will become a dedicated hunter, even if he or she never hunts.
Yeah, you know, we don'ttalk about it and have these conversations
just guys and gal sitting around thecampfire hunting and things like that about all
these things you're talking about as faras strength and the art of rhetoric and
the ability to use those things aswell. But I think that one point
(25:18):
that you just made that really jumpsout at me is that you know,
getting getting younger kids, young adultseven you know, involved in the outdoors
and allowing their confidence to build.Uh, you know, I think it
personally, speaking from one side ofthe argument, here, But I personally
think I agree with you in thefact that it seems to make them more
(25:41):
confident and more independent and better independentdecision makers for life all the way around,
versus just hunting. You know.Yes, that's why I say hunting
is for me metaphoric. It isjust one example of integrating into a larger
scope of life, the larger frameworkof life, and the skills are pervasive
(26:11):
and they're universal, and they're applicablein any facet of life, in any
facet of your life. I meanlearning how to use words, learning how
to craft an argument. For example, I claim, I assert that in
(26:32):
making arguments, we always have tofocus on the morality of an argument,
and fortunately hunters have the more moralargument. We have better arguments. We
just don't as a general rule.I'm making a generalized statement. I emphasize
that we don't make our case asa lawyer would say, we don't make
(26:57):
our case very well. To thecontrary, youngsters are intimidated. They're fearful.
The peer group pressure, such asit is is, can be overwhelming,
and so they they tend to besecretive. They self censor, They
(27:19):
avoid talking about hunting and and andthe virtues of hunting, and those are
issues that I address, and Ican tell you I'm pleased to tell you
of these youngsters welcome it. Theythey absorb it like a sponge because they
(27:45):
know it's making them stronger people.They know it's making them better people.
I have dozens of examples where youngstershave told me how they have learned how
to stand up to their fellow studentswho attack them. And then they go
on the offense and they say,do you understand what wildlife management is?
(28:11):
Do you understand how animals die?Like in Cecil, the lion he only
had another year or two in life, which is a whole other topic,
you know. And to master therhetoric, Let's say with Cecil, say
which do you prefer, fifty thousanddollars going into a local community or a
(28:38):
lion that's going to die in ayear or two anyway and there is no
economic gain, which do you prefer? You cannot equivocate, you cannot euphemize,
you cannot contextualize. Which do youprefer A or B? Yep,
(29:02):
that's uh, that's you. Listen, man, you're speaking our language here.
We're going to take a quick breakhere. But if you'll indulgence.
We're going to move into this lastsegment here. If Vermond and I have
a question, we want to runyou through an exercise. Taking a break
here on Honey Matters kPr C ninefifty Chestnuts roasting on an open five jack
(29:41):
fro por chest at, I said, poor chest Yeah, I like to
playing off the air. This isone of my favorite Christmas. Yeah,
it's my favorite of all time.I tell my kids. They asked me,
I say, this is it?This is it. I don't know
if it's one I could hear allthe time and listen to all the time.
But if I had to put onein a uh uh, what do
you call it? You bury itin the ground and you time capital it
(30:03):
would be this way. Yeah,there's something. I don't know what the
word is, but you know whenI hear it, I feel it.
Yeah, I can feel. Ohhere's Christmas. Yeah, yeah, I
love it. That's good. Loveit. Back on Honting Matters KPRC and
nine to fifty. Our guest todayis Michael Sabbath. Ramona and I are
getting all mushy here and well itreally turned mushy when you grabbed my knee
(30:25):
and started petting it anyway. Uh, I think you had a question for
Michael. For those of you justjoining us, you've missed three segments of
a phenomenal show. We've learned alot bit, Ramona. I think you
had a question. Well, Idon't want to take too much of the
show away from Michael. Michael,if in about a minute or two,
if somebody came up and said,you're not hunting, you're going out,
and you're killing Bambie, how wouldyou kind of turn that around and explain
(30:47):
to them what's really happening. That'san excellent That's an excellent question. It's
an excellent question on several levels.I'm not trying to be forming here.
It's so happens that I give acomplete talk on Bambi and the need for
the hunting community to do what Icall de vamplification of wildlife. And I
(31:17):
would turn it around by asking questions. I ask questions. I look for
clarity. That is such a vitallyimportant concept. Clarity. What do you
know about how animals die? Whatdo you know about wasting disease? What
do you know about predation? Whatdo you know about the origins of the
(31:42):
leather seats in your Mercedes, andyour wallet and your notebooks and your briefcases
and your shoes. And where doesthe turkey come from for your Thanksgiving?
And how do you make these marvelousfilet mignon with a nice cream peppercorn sauce
flamed in cognac. How does thatcome about? Would you support hunting under
(32:10):
certain definable facts that you accept?And I will give you an example.
It is perhaps the quintessential example ofthe success of persuasion, and it occurred
six years ago, almost to theday, when I was lecturing in Namibia,
(32:34):
and I was visiting one of thefarms or ranches of a woman who
has become a dear friend. Maybeyou folks know her, the mean vander
west Tisen of aru Aaru Aru Safaris. Anyway, I was a guest at
her ranch and a man came upto me. He was a surgeon from
(32:55):
Poland. He was there flying glassplanes and came up and very graciously asked
me what I was going to bespeaking about. He knew that much about
me, because two or three dayslater I was giving my talks in Windtook,
which was maybe one hundred miles fromthe ranch, and he was a
(33:21):
serious man. He's an intelligent man, and so I tried to explain.
I knew he's a European, andI figured he was an anti hunter,
And so I talked about the DallasSafari Club auction of the black rhinoceros hunt,
which was in twenty thirteen, andI happened to be at the banquet
(33:46):
in Dallas when that was when theauction was finalized, and the black rhino
came from that very ranch, theNimes ranch, And so I asked this,
told this man the facts. Youalways go to the facts, and
(34:06):
then you discuss the morality of theconsequences of policies that affect those facts.
And I told this surgeon how theblack lihino that was selected for the hunt
had already killed five juvenile rhinos.I explained how the money would be hundreds
(34:32):
of thousands of dollars would be raisedfor the outfitters, for the government,
for the communities. It would helpadvance a water treatment project, it would
help schools, it would provide food, and I went through the laundry list
of what this specific hunting experience wouldachieve. This man looked at me as
(35:02):
I said, he's a serious guy. He's no fool. He looked at
me, he said, I'm nota hunter. I am against hunting,
but I would support this hunt.I would support it. I changed his
mind. He now became open.And I'll just tell you that by incredible
(35:30):
coincidence, when I was there lastyear at the AUL, he was there
again and I told him how importanthis name is, Jersey. I told
Jersey how important that brief discussion hadbecome in my writing, my lecturing,
(35:51):
my teaching. And he was delighted. He was delighted. It wasn't a
matter, said, you know,I was wrong. Then he was delighted.
So the way you deal with thatkind of attack is you go to
facts and say do you understand this? You look for clarity, not to
(36:15):
argue, not to argue, notto try to beat somebody up. For
example, here's the quintessential example.I think that is irrefutable, irrefutable in
terms of defending hunting. Ask thequestion do you brush your teeth? It
(36:37):
seems innocent enough, doesn't it.Do you brush your teeth? The great
majority of people will say, yeah, sure of course I did. Then
I follow up, I say whywhy do you do it? Well,
obviously, as the discussion untold.You brush your teeth because you value your
(36:57):
teeth. You want them to besustained, you want to keep them.
The teeth have value. You protectwhat you value. You disregard what you
do not value. That is whyyou do not have a collection of McDonald's
(37:21):
paper cases for Hia Hamburg. Well, you haven't looked at the back of
Ramon's truck, so you don't value. How this is the most fundamental law
of all human activity. You preservewhat you value. How can it be
different in hunting? How can itbe different? If the animals have no
(37:46):
value, they will be destroyed,they will be poached, they will be
eliminated. And so you have allthese hunting bands, you have these import
bands on trophies and so on.All they do is reduce the value the
United Kingdom, which is neither It'sneither united nor is it a kingdom.
(38:09):
Uh a ban on. Let's say, lion trophies has killed more lions than
a thousand Walter palmers with cecil.Those are the argument, and you make
them with confidence, You make themin a focused, powerful way, and
(38:32):
you say you you, you askyour opponent, your your interlocutor, whoever
you're talking to, try and refutethat. That's how do you Yeah,
that's just I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that's uh, that's a phenomenal
standpoint, and you've given a Ronanand I both a lot to think about.
(38:53):
Unfortunately, we're out of time thisweek, folks are hunting. Our
guest today has been Michael G.Sabbath. Check out the honorable hunter dot
com. You guys, have agreat holiday season. We will see you
next time on Hunting Matters kp rC nine fifty
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