December 22, 2024 • 33 mins
#152. Ron talks with singer/songwriter Paul Spring about touring in a canoe, his bohemian ancestry, playing Sunny's Bar, pottery-related popularity, and why he'll likely never sign with a label.Sponsored by DistroKid. Get 30% off your membership at distrokid.com/vip/independentmindedSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
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Speaker 2 (00:37):
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Speaker 2 (01:31):
Ah Christmas. It's that time of year that always makes
me think of Spring, not the season. The classical guitar
player and singer from Queens, New York.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
My name is Paul Spring, and I'm from Minnesota, a
town called Saint Cloud. Since twenty eighteen, I've lived in
New York City. Right now, I'm based in Queens, me.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I've set up shop in Brooklyn, Staten Island, even a
short tour of duty in Midtown Manhattan, Queens. Mainly I've
just driven through it on the way to Long Island.
But Paul and his wife feel quite settled in Ridgewood.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
Rough silently wake hommies o the dawn on the Twilight train,
rider the docks and the Tarzan droves, carrying alone name
without a name, while.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
A bunch of my musician friends they've in this neighborhood
and we played basketball and stuff. Good community out here
and it's quiet. I moved to New York in twenty
eighteen to work at a recording studio up in Long
Island City. It's in like two months of being here.
I was working on an instrumental guitar album and I
(02:55):
just put out an Instagram story, does anyone know a
place in Brooklyn where I could play these songs and
play instrumental guitar in a corner of a bar. It's
it's kind of my ideal gig and my friend Kate Madison,
who's in a great band called seventy nine point five,
he responded to the story.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
This lead leads Paul to an iconic watering hole in
the Red Hook section of Brooklyn. Sunny's Bar is a
nick knack Adorn saloon that's been around for more than
a century and a landmark spot for live local music.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I just sit in a corner on a Sunday night
and play guitar. Obviously, the pandemic out in the way,
but now I'm back there playing once a month, and
I get together with a group of friends and we
play on a little bit of my Rigel music, but
mostly we play John Prime covers.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Nice. I'm a fan, Yeah, me too.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
I'm going down to the Greenhouse Station going a bad
digger to that. I'm on a fan of Lady. We're
doing We Kids and Sadamn bear Se.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Paul songs are intimate and sparse. He often performs with
just a guitar and a drum machine.
Speaker 7 (04:20):
That could change anything, well, would not change anything.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Drop.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
The term Swinging up Sunny's has become a destination spot,
which isn't always conducive to the optimal listening experience.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
It's still a neighborhood bar that people walk to, but
it's also become a destination for tourists on Sundays. It
was very chill on Fridays when I'm playing Now, you
can't move in it. It's so many people. It's right
on the water. I think it's like late eighteen hundred's
it opened, and it was a kind of a sailor bar.
(04:59):
A bunch of barges and chips dock down there, and
it's very nautical themed and old.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Timey nautical themed. Turns out that's right up Paul Springs Alley, well,
maybe not Ali up Paul Springs Creek. In support of
his recent album River Flows Two Ways, Paul canoe down
the Hudson River with a guitar at his side, then
docked at seven different concert venues along the water, and
(05:27):
as it turns out, it's not the first time Paul's
ever conquered the waves.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I grew up a few blocks from the Mississippi River.
I loved books like Huck Finn and such and always
dreamed of floating down at someday.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Paul and I talk about his river tour experiences on
episode one fifty two of Independent Minded, plus growing up
in a household of classical music and nine siblings, and
why Hope probably never signed with a label. Let's kick
things off with Eye to Eye from Paul's latest album,
kind of Heaven. Then my conversation with Paul spring right
here on Independent Minded.
Speaker 8 (06:05):
Ry Dallows Pas podcast, Ride Dallows Maze podcast, slugging the
people make God Music, plugging their projects, making the famous
helpers about just my mation to talk.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
About all the bushit that they do.
Speaker 6 (06:36):
Kind of Heaven.
Speaker 8 (06:37):
That's her Lie, always moving, always traveling Lie.
Speaker 7 (06:46):
You would have to learn to fly just to get
to see her.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I do five with seven, that's her high.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Will five with six and a half.
Speaker 7 (07:10):
But who's counting?
Speaker 5 (07:12):
Ride, You still have to stand on the mountain just
to see her.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I do.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I do.
Speaker 7 (07:29):
My believe that she's looking down on this world from
Wi my.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
Bee, that she's like upper in the sky, always true,
always love, always like.
Speaker 7 (07:47):
She sees the world.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
She sees the world I do.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Do I do.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
A lot of the guests on this podcast come from
humble beginnings. It becomes part of their DNA. For most
of the artists, humility feels like a birthrate. Paul Spring
is no exception. But there's a lot more in Paul's
DNA than just modesty. He's the great grandson of two
tried and true Bohemians.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
They're both on my mom's side, and one of them
his name's Joyce Kilmer. He was like a mildly famous
poet at the time. The Park by Yankee Stadium is
named after him and is a national forest named after
him because he had a famous poem about trees. Then
the other great grandfather, Fridrick Friezica. He was a bricklayer
(08:43):
son in Michigan and he got into painey I guess
he didn't want to be a bricklayer. And then he
went over to France and started studying with Monet and
just joined up with the French and Impressionists, and he's
got Painians in the med in the Brooklyn Museum.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Paul's parents were both English professors.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Irish Catholic family and based with nine siblings. You know
when I was born, and first growing up we lived
in a you could call it a three bedroom house,
but it was really a two bedroom house. So I
grew up sleeping with my five brothers, six people in
a room, and we grew up with art and music.
Both my parents were really really good piano players.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Naturally, all the Spring kids were forced to take piano lessons.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
And none of them practiced. So when they when they
got to me, they figured, Okay, we're not going to
pay for these piano lessons anymore. And then lo and behold,
I became the musician.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Statue in the bathroom.
Speaker 7 (09:58):
He's got his han.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
I'm looking down.
Speaker 7 (10:06):
And I don't feel so true something that Dayton.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
We just had a really good upbringing, not much money,
but lots of culture, and I'm so grateful for it
because it really prepared me in a way, because a
lot of being a musician is so ing off of
nothing and being thrifty and making the best of it.
And because of how I was brought up to with
(11:09):
kind of radical politics and a real kind of Catholic
kind of glorifying the riches of living simply, I have
always valued being an independent musician. I don't want to
give ownership of my masters to a label, a lot
of which are run by stress fund kids, and I
(11:31):
want to do it all on my own. And that means,
even though I get occasional offers from labels, I used
to take the slow road and do things myself.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
And just because he was the only spring kid who
made his own music, that doesn't mean he loved the
music he grew up with.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
In fact, I was annoyed with it. I didn't like
hearing classical music all the time, like getting up to
pee in the middle of the night and hearing Shostakovich
or something and being terrified because it literally played twenty
four hours a day.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Were they pumping it through the house? How are you
absorbing that?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, boombox in the living room and it was a
small house, so.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
A boombox pumping jams from DJ Ricky Wagner and rock mononoff.
I wonder who was in charge of turning over the
cassette tapes.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
And I didn't like Irish folks music. I came around
to that sort of music much later. And even though
I took a couple of guitar lessons classical guitar lessons,
I'm mostly self taught.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Ironically, during the pandemic, Paul strengthens his classical guitar skills
by teaching himself how to play bach on a twelve string. Okay,
so Paul's got a complicated relationship with classical, But how
(12:53):
about the rock and or the role.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
My first concert was BB King. I went to it
with a friend in the neighborhood. He took me, and
that just blew my mind, and through that my older
brothers are like, well, you should listen to Eric Clapton
and Robert Johnson and this blues and folks stuff. I
can remember the moment I first heard a Lead Belly song,
because I would just go to the public library and
check out CDs and just listen to everything at home.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
He does, he does Hero money does Hero on me
one day and harm Dah him on.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
A girl, and I just became obsessed with Lead Belly
and I still am. He's still my favorite musician. His voice,
his guitar playing, his completely his own style of folk
and blues, and I just thought it was better than
(13:50):
anything I'd ever heard, and the songs were realer and
representative of kind of the human struggled than any music
of the day. And then through him, I've found Nirvana
because it's their cover of Where You Sleep Last Night I.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Unplugged teenage Paul takes his disparat influences to the clubs
of Saint Paul, Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
We had a local music scene in high school and
I would climb out on my roof and sneak out
at night and go play shows in bars.
Speaker 7 (14:19):
Well this time, passon, through through this town, through this home,
through this you. I'm afraid I cannot steal.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And over the years, Paul hons his sound into something
between Nick Drake, Acoustic Beck, and Brian Wilson.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I was actually this morning listening to a YouTube explanation
of some of the songs on pet Sounds and how
use Block inspired counterpoint. These guys were so smart.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Ah, look it all comes full circle, very intentional.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, I love them, none of us.
Speaker 7 (15:14):
Soon and I'll becoming.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Naturally. Paul's attracted to a band called The Beach Boys.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Water is in his blood and during college in the summers,
I got a job as a wilderness canoe guide for
people with physical and mental disabilities, and we would go
on these trips into the Canadian wilderness and the boundary
waters for ten days at a time, and it was
this really difficult job but so rewarding.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Okay, fine, so it's not the sand and surf of California,
but this pastoral floating adventure would provide a foundation for
future Paul's musical path.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
And I figured, man, if I can do ten days
in the wilderness, I could put down to Mississippi. So
my friend Sam was in Afghanistan at the time, and
we would talk on the phone a lot and talk
about how when he got out we would do this
river trip, and it was something to look forward to
for years. We planned it for like almost eight years, honestly,
(16:23):
And when he got out, the army sent his car
to Saint Louis. So he and I bought like a
two hundred dollars canoe in Bamidge and bought some pedals
at the Fleet Farm and started at the source of
the Mississippi and my guitar and booked some shows and
he brought an accordion. He's a great keys player. He
(16:47):
and I had a duo in high school called Spontaneous Combustion.
I think it was forty eight days on the river.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Forty eight days, twelve hundred miles, so fun so much
fun that nearly a decade later, in a different place
in his life, Paul gets back in the boat.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Living in New York. I became interested in the Hudson
River in the past few years because of the history
of the Native Americans living here, and then the Dutch
coming and exploring, and most interesting to me because it's
a brackish, tidle river that has very little elevation changed
between here in Albany, so the ocean tide goes all
(17:27):
the way up to Albany.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
I'm from Brooklyn, but I'm pretty sure Paul means Albany.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
What would that be like to have to canoe down
a river but take into consideration the ocean the entire
time and move with that rhythm, And it was extremely
difficult to time here paddling and to paddle sometimes against
the tide.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Paddling against the tide seems appropriate for a lifelong indie musician,
and Paul paddles his canoe to seven different venues up
and down the Hudson to perform.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I gotta say it's the easiest time I've ever had
booking shows. If you put canoeing down the Hudson River
in a subject line, people open it up.
Speaker 8 (18:04):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
The hard part was finding venues on the water that
hosted music, But it wasn't that hard. I played some
places that were not venues. I played like the Landing
of a Lighthouse, and I played it a castle that's
on an island near Beacon. People on that river and
people on the Mississippi as well, are kind of a
(18:27):
special breed of hospitality and kindness where they've seen people
doing it before and they're open to it and willing
to lend out a helping hand. You need a shower,
you need a meal, like just completely trusting of strangers,
almost like you read about in ancient times, like the
(18:47):
ancient Greeks and stuff, welcoming people, welcoming the stranger. And
that just filled me with so much say and hope.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
This is not to say that doing a tour along
a river doesn't come with its unique challenges.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I completely forgot about Fleet Week when all the big
navy and merchant marine ships come into town, and we
had to paddle into Manpatan on the first day of
Fleet Week, and there were all these ships going around us,
massive ships with huge wakes. I mean, at one point
(19:32):
we were going over rollers that were like eight feet.
It was terrifying, and our boat was taken on water.
And also we weren't allowed to paddle close ashore because
there were patrol boats going around that didn't want any
private citizens coming close to these military vessels, you know,
(19:57):
anti terrorist patrol boats. I guess I guess we were.
We were a threat. That's two guys and life jackets
and a canoe with guitars into.
Speaker 6 (20:06):
Shame hanging.
Speaker 7 (20:11):
Young time on the lights.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And I just did a three month tour this fall
around the West coast and on land. Yeah, on land
and camped, which is also fun, going to national parks
and such with my wife. Maybe it's just because of
my background growing up camping with my family and as
(20:42):
a guy, but I think it's easier than touring in
a car, especially if you're on a big river with islands.
It's just all your gears in the boat. It's cheap,
you don't have to pay for gas, you don't have
to pay for camping most of the time because you
just gorilla camp. You pack all your food so you're
not aiming to eat out. You can't drink because the
(21:04):
last thing you want to do is wake up with
a hangover, and I don't know, for ten hours in
the sun, it's really healthy because you're getting exercise all day,
not just like sitting on your butt in a car.
So if I could, it would be, honestly the only
way I'd tour. It's just, yeah, it's a little bit
tough to work up logistically, but hopefully I dream about,
(21:27):
you know, someday if I move back to Minnesota, making
it a yearly thing to go down the Mississippi and
building up a fan base along the banks.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
On his most recent tour, Paul makes stops and out
of the way spots like Taos, New Mexico, and Bozeman, Montana.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
I tried mostly to play small, out of the way
towns because I just think it's so fun to bring
independent music to those places and it's very much appreciated,
and honestly, you end up making a little bit more
money too.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The Delaware is next on Paul's river bucket list.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
And I actually just talked on the phone with a
friend of mine from Ireland who recommended doing the Shannon
River because there's a lot of great little towns and pubs.
So I'm thinking of that too, But that's maybe two years.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
So Paul Spring. He's a man with a plan and
he's prolific, if not very popular, but just like his
canoe related ambition, in some parts of the world, his
popularity is growing.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Pottery Guy is my friend Joel Jericho. He lives across
the cornfield from the farm my wife grew up on
in Saint Joseph, Minnesota, and I've known him for fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Joel Jerico's clever time lapsed creative pottery videos, almost always
accompanied by music, have become an Internet sensation. One point
four million YouTube subscribers means nearly three million eyes and
ears on Joel's channel.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
He's a great potter. Where I'm from, there's a lot
of potters. My mom is a ceramicist, and it's a
big scene because of the ground the driftless, so the
glaciers just left a lot of clay, good clay. But
he figured out how to really make a living off
of his pottery by using social media. I feel like
he was an influencer before they became a thing. He
(23:14):
figured it out very early by putting on Facebook Live
and getting people to buy his pots that way. Still,
he's been really good about supporting the music made by
people from Saint Joe and Saint Cloud, and in the
(23:34):
background of these videos, he's always playing like he could
play any music he wanted. He could play Radiohead or
Red Hot Chili Peppers or whatever, but instead he plays
music from our town and in doing so exposes us
to this huge audience. I think one of the songs
(23:56):
he put on a video has like four hundred million listens.
So I'm just incredibly grateful to him on this tour
I did. While I was out on tour, he put
Far from the Flame on one of his videos, and
(24:16):
it was two weeks before the album came out, and
I sent him a text and like, Joel, that song
isn't out yet, man, like thanks for sharing it. But
I was kind of waiting, and I was completely wrong
because the song blew up, or the video blew up
rather and people liked the song in the background. Next
thing I know, there's like two thousand comments of I
(24:38):
can't find this song? Where do I find this song?
I found the guy, but the album hasn't come out yet,
and it generated all this buzz and I got all
these pre saves and followers, and I had people coming
out to my shows to hear the song and coming
(24:58):
up to me at the merch boo, and it just
created this organic buzz that I had never experienced before.
Kind of taught me a lesson about marketing your stuff
and building excitement, and it was a complete surprise to me,
(25:28):
and it was so fun to have it happen while
I was out on the road. And it brought a
much younger audience than I've had in the past, at
high school kids whose moms were driving them two hours
to come to the shows. And as they saw this
pottery video.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Who needs a record label when you got friends in
the pottery world. Paul Spring is the quintessential indie musician.
He's in it for the adventure, for the experience, even
if some parts of his trade will always leave a
pit in the stomach. The soldiers on for all the
right reasons.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
You know. I saw last week that one hundred fifty
thousand songs are being uploaded every day, and that is
just unfathomable. And I'm happy that everyone's up there making music.
But when you hear some of the music, you wonder, like,
how much time did you actually spend on this? What
(26:26):
does this mean to you? I spent my entire twenties.
I'm threety five now, so depressed at not having any
listeners to my music going on. I would like drive
around Minnesota and play at Wineries for three hours and
play covers and Bryan play my originals, but nobody wanted
(26:46):
to hear them. Back then, I was printing CDs and
I still have boxes of those CDs in my garage
back home, like it was really rough for a long
long time. That is a.
Speaker 7 (27:07):
Home.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
It's only now in my thirties where I'm where I can.
It's not even that good now. You know, I'm lucky
if I can sell sell seventy tickets in New York.
A lot of times in New York, nobody shows up
to a show. It's competitive, market's oversaturated, and you don't
get paid anything. So the only way to do it
(27:33):
and be persistent is to read it almost like a
spiritual practice. This is my way of communion with magic
and with something I really love, and just trying to
keep that slam alive and not grow jaded, and honestly
just having a job on the side, because there's nothing
(27:54):
wrong with having a job. And unfortunately, just like the
way the rest of the world works, I think maybe
by now you can tell I have a chip on
my shoulder about inherited wealth. But when I worked at
that recording studio in Queen's and we would record some
pretty big artists and the people who would come through
(28:16):
the studio, I just noticed, Man, so many of these
people come from money. And the way that they're able
to do music, learn instruments, record music, pay for it,
get connected with record labels, pay for press. All this
stuff is because they have it in the first place.
This is a strong statement, but I think the best
(28:36):
music comes from the bottom up and then it gets
appropriated by the people at the top. So I want
to motivate people. I know, I said it's the pressing
that one hundred and fifty thousand songs get uploaded a day,
But in a way, it can also be inspiring that
in today's day and age, people have the access to
(29:00):
sleep recording software and the ability to put their music out.
If at the core of what music is it's supposed
to be about making community and engaging with a tradition,
then I think it's kind of a beautiful thing that
we're in this place right now, and hopefully the financial
(29:23):
side will sort itself out by the techno utilist corporate
overlords giving up some of their cash and paying musicians properly.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yep, the struggle is real. But is it a struggle
if it's really spiritual? Paul surrounded himself with angels. The
folks at Sonny's Bar who host them every month, the
pottery guy who pimps out his music to his online fans,
all the folks who offered a shower or a meal
on his river tours, the musicians from his neighborhood, and
most of all, his high school sweetheart who became his wife,
(30:09):
not to mention his unofficial producer and graphic designer.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
She plays a big part. And then all of the
artwork on all of my albums was done by her.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Oh wow, I didn't know that. That's awesome. Yeah, Paul's
already got a new album in his back pocket that
he plans to put out in the new year, and
he's got another new one about halfway done. Dude's been
putting out two albums per year on his own terms,
sometimes on land, sometimes on water, and always putting the
art before the business.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
My issue is that I'm a bit impatient, and I'm
maybe not very fun to work with because I make
an album and I want to put it out three
months later, and labels just that's not what they can't
do that.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Well, they can do that, but even for a business
that's mostly busted, that's mostly against the rules. And so
Paul Spring paddles forward solo and without regret. The rules
are his and his alone to make, and that's the
way he likes it. It's also a big reason why
we like his music.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Thanks so much for sharing it and doing this interview.
It means a lot because it's hard. So any chance
I get to talk with somebody or any album that's
bought just means a world to me because I'm doing
it all out of this little apartment in Queens.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Find out more about Paul, sample all his music, including
the new album Kind of Heaven, and check out upcoming
show dates at Paul spring music dot com, support him
on bandcamp, and follow him on social media at Paul
spring Music. Big thanks to Paul for the words and
the wisdom, and you know I love rolling on a
river with you. Loyal podcast listener, do me a favor,
(32:04):
Subscribe and leave a kind review for Independent Minded on
Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can share the links, tell
your friends, and buy some music at baldfreak dot com.
And if you just want to say hi or send
me your latest tunes, you can do that at Ron
at baldfreak dot com. Keep up with the latest Baldfreak
music and podcast news and pictures of my dog on
(32:25):
social media at Baldfreak Music, Independent Mind. And it's a
bald Freak Music production. And me, I'm still Ron Scalzo.
Speaker 7 (32:35):
You're n
You're the one that should be worried.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
You're a freak.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
You're reading full bag trouble.
Speaker 4 (00:08):
B ha ho, it's me Santa Claus, it's those air parts.
I'm giving you thirty percent off your membership at distro
kid this year, even though you were naughty. Thanks to
distro Kid, bands like the ones featured on Independent Minded
can get their music where it belongs on the web.
(00:31):
Do you run a record label or manage black MIDI
you can't just snap your fingers and get your music
on Spotify.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Only I can offer up such black magic.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
And we all know that of what you made isn't
on YouTube, then it didn't really happen. So let distro
kid do what they do. All you do is upload
that new holiday classic and distro Kid'll do the rest.
And if you want to pimp yourself out like a
proper pop star, they have fun promo tools and templates
for you. Do you use to get that job done quick?
(01:02):
And if distro Kid ain't the best at all this,
then my name ain't Saint Nick. Visit DistroKid dot com
slash vip slash Independent Minded try it for a year
and thirty percent off the regular price and don't forget
to tell him Santasentia.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Ah Christmas. It's that time of year that always makes
me think of Spring, not the season. The classical guitar
player and singer from Queens, New York.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
My name is Paul Spring, and I'm from Minnesota, a
town called Saint Cloud. Since twenty eighteen, I've lived in
New York City. Right now, I'm based in Queens, me.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I've set up shop in Brooklyn, Staten Island, even a
short tour of duty in Midtown Manhattan, Queens. Mainly I've
just driven through it on the way to Long Island.
But Paul and his wife feel quite settled in Ridgewood.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
Rough silently wake hommies o the dawn on the Twilight train,
rider the docks and the Tarzan droves, carrying alone name
without a name, while.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
A bunch of my musician friends they've in this neighborhood
and we played basketball and stuff. Good community out here
and it's quiet. I moved to New York in twenty
eighteen to work at a recording studio up in Long
Island City. It's in like two months of being here.
I was working on an instrumental guitar album and I
(02:55):
just put out an Instagram story, does anyone know a
place in Brooklyn where I could play these songs and
play instrumental guitar in a corner of a bar. It's
it's kind of my ideal gig and my friend Kate Madison,
who's in a great band called seventy nine point five,
he responded to the story.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
This lead leads Paul to an iconic watering hole in
the Red Hook section of Brooklyn. Sunny's Bar is a
nick knack Adorn saloon that's been around for more than
a century and a landmark spot for live local music.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I just sit in a corner on a Sunday night
and play guitar. Obviously, the pandemic out in the way,
but now I'm back there playing once a month, and
I get together with a group of friends and we
play on a little bit of my Rigel music, but
mostly we play John Prime covers.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Nice. I'm a fan, Yeah, me too.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
I'm going down to the Greenhouse Station going a bad
digger to that. I'm on a fan of Lady. We're
doing We Kids and Sadamn bear Se.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Paul songs are intimate and sparse. He often performs with
just a guitar and a drum machine.
Speaker 7 (04:20):
That could change anything, well, would not change anything.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Drop.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
The term Swinging up Sunny's has become a destination spot,
which isn't always conducive to the optimal listening experience.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
It's still a neighborhood bar that people walk to, but
it's also become a destination for tourists on Sundays. It
was very chill on Fridays when I'm playing Now, you
can't move in it. It's so many people. It's right
on the water. I think it's like late eighteen hundred's
it opened, and it was a kind of a sailor bar.
(04:59):
A bunch of barges and chips dock down there, and
it's very nautical themed and old.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Timey nautical themed. Turns out that's right up Paul Springs Alley, well,
maybe not Ali up Paul Springs Creek. In support of
his recent album River Flows Two Ways, Paul canoe down
the Hudson River with a guitar at his side, then
docked at seven different concert venues along the water, and
(05:27):
as it turns out, it's not the first time Paul's
ever conquered the waves.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I grew up a few blocks from the Mississippi River.
I loved books like Huck Finn and such and always
dreamed of floating down at someday.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Paul and I talk about his river tour experiences on
episode one fifty two of Independent Minded, plus growing up
in a household of classical music and nine siblings, and
why Hope probably never signed with a label. Let's kick
things off with Eye to Eye from Paul's latest album,
kind of Heaven. Then my conversation with Paul spring right
here on Independent Minded.
Speaker 8 (06:05):
Ry Dallows Pas podcast, Ride Dallows Maze podcast, slugging the
people make God Music, plugging their projects, making the famous
helpers about just my mation to talk.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
About all the bushit that they do.
Speaker 6 (06:36):
Kind of Heaven.
Speaker 8 (06:37):
That's her Lie, always moving, always traveling Lie.
Speaker 7 (06:46):
You would have to learn to fly just to get
to see her.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I do five with seven, that's her high.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Will five with six and a half.
Speaker 7 (07:10):
But who's counting?
Speaker 5 (07:12):
Ride, You still have to stand on the mountain just
to see her.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I do.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I do.
Speaker 7 (07:29):
My believe that she's looking down on this world from
Wi my.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
Bee, that she's like upper in the sky, always true,
always love, always like.
Speaker 7 (07:47):
She sees the world.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
She sees the world I do.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Do I do.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
A lot of the guests on this podcast come from
humble beginnings. It becomes part of their DNA. For most
of the artists, humility feels like a birthrate. Paul Spring
is no exception. But there's a lot more in Paul's
DNA than just modesty. He's the great grandson of two
tried and true Bohemians.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
They're both on my mom's side, and one of them
his name's Joyce Kilmer. He was like a mildly famous
poet at the time. The Park by Yankee Stadium is
named after him and is a national forest named after
him because he had a famous poem about trees. Then
the other great grandfather, Fridrick Friezica. He was a bricklayer
(08:43):
son in Michigan and he got into painey I guess
he didn't want to be a bricklayer. And then he
went over to France and started studying with Monet and
just joined up with the French and Impressionists, and he's
got Painians in the med in the Brooklyn Museum.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Paul's parents were both English professors.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Irish Catholic family and based with nine siblings. You know
when I was born, and first growing up we lived
in a you could call it a three bedroom house,
but it was really a two bedroom house. So I
grew up sleeping with my five brothers, six people in
a room, and we grew up with art and music.
Both my parents were really really good piano players.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Naturally, all the Spring kids were forced to take piano lessons.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
And none of them practiced. So when they when they
got to me, they figured, Okay, we're not going to
pay for these piano lessons anymore. And then lo and behold,
I became the musician.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Statue in the bathroom.
Speaker 7 (09:58):
He's got his han.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
I'm looking down.
Speaker 7 (10:06):
And I don't feel so true something that Dayton.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
We just had a really good upbringing, not much money,
but lots of culture, and I'm so grateful for it
because it really prepared me in a way, because a
lot of being a musician is so ing off of
nothing and being thrifty and making the best of it.
And because of how I was brought up to with
(11:09):
kind of radical politics and a real kind of Catholic
kind of glorifying the riches of living simply, I have
always valued being an independent musician. I don't want to
give ownership of my masters to a label, a lot
of which are run by stress fund kids, and I
(11:31):
want to do it all on my own. And that means,
even though I get occasional offers from labels, I used
to take the slow road and do things myself.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
And just because he was the only spring kid who
made his own music, that doesn't mean he loved the
music he grew up with.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
In fact, I was annoyed with it. I didn't like
hearing classical music all the time, like getting up to
pee in the middle of the night and hearing Shostakovich
or something and being terrified because it literally played twenty
four hours a day.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Were they pumping it through the house? How are you
absorbing that?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, boombox in the living room and it was a
small house, so.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
A boombox pumping jams from DJ Ricky Wagner and rock mononoff.
I wonder who was in charge of turning over the
cassette tapes.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
And I didn't like Irish folks music. I came around
to that sort of music much later. And even though
I took a couple of guitar lessons classical guitar lessons,
I'm mostly self taught.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Ironically, during the pandemic, Paul strengthens his classical guitar skills
by teaching himself how to play bach on a twelve string. Okay,
so Paul's got a complicated relationship with classical, But how
(12:53):
about the rock and or the role.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
My first concert was BB King. I went to it
with a friend in the neighborhood. He took me, and
that just blew my mind, and through that my older
brothers are like, well, you should listen to Eric Clapton
and Robert Johnson and this blues and folks stuff. I
can remember the moment I first heard a Lead Belly song,
because I would just go to the public library and
check out CDs and just listen to everything at home.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
He does, he does Hero money does Hero on me
one day and harm Dah him on.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
A girl, and I just became obsessed with Lead Belly
and I still am. He's still my favorite musician. His voice,
his guitar playing, his completely his own style of folk
and blues, and I just thought it was better than
(13:50):
anything I'd ever heard, and the songs were realer and
representative of kind of the human struggled than any music
of the day. And then through him, I've found Nirvana
because it's their cover of Where You Sleep Last Night I.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Unplugged teenage Paul takes his disparat influences to the clubs
of Saint Paul, Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
We had a local music scene in high school and
I would climb out on my roof and sneak out
at night and go play shows in bars.
Speaker 7 (14:19):
Well this time, passon, through through this town, through this home,
through this you. I'm afraid I cannot steal.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And over the years, Paul hons his sound into something
between Nick Drake, Acoustic Beck, and Brian Wilson.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I was actually this morning listening to a YouTube explanation
of some of the songs on pet Sounds and how
use Block inspired counterpoint. These guys were so smart.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Ah, look it all comes full circle, very intentional.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, I love them, none of us.
Speaker 7 (15:14):
Soon and I'll becoming.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Naturally. Paul's attracted to a band called The Beach Boys.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Water is in his blood and during college in the summers,
I got a job as a wilderness canoe guide for
people with physical and mental disabilities, and we would go
on these trips into the Canadian wilderness and the boundary
waters for ten days at a time, and it was
this really difficult job but so rewarding.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Okay, fine, so it's not the sand and surf of California,
but this pastoral floating adventure would provide a foundation for
future Paul's musical path.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
And I figured, man, if I can do ten days
in the wilderness, I could put down to Mississippi. So
my friend Sam was in Afghanistan at the time, and
we would talk on the phone a lot and talk
about how when he got out we would do this
river trip, and it was something to look forward to
for years. We planned it for like almost eight years, honestly,
(16:23):
And when he got out, the army sent his car
to Saint Louis. So he and I bought like a
two hundred dollars canoe in Bamidge and bought some pedals
at the Fleet Farm and started at the source of
the Mississippi and my guitar and booked some shows and
he brought an accordion. He's a great keys player. He
(16:47):
and I had a duo in high school called Spontaneous Combustion.
I think it was forty eight days on the river.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Forty eight days, twelve hundred miles, so fun so much
fun that nearly a decade later, in a different place
in his life, Paul gets back in the boat.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Living in New York. I became interested in the Hudson
River in the past few years because of the history
of the Native Americans living here, and then the Dutch
coming and exploring, and most interesting to me because it's
a brackish, tidle river that has very little elevation changed
between here in Albany, so the ocean tide goes all
(17:27):
the way up to Albany.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
I'm from Brooklyn, but I'm pretty sure Paul means Albany.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
What would that be like to have to canoe down
a river but take into consideration the ocean the entire
time and move with that rhythm, And it was extremely
difficult to time here paddling and to paddle sometimes against
the tide.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Paddling against the tide seems appropriate for a lifelong indie musician,
and Paul paddles his canoe to seven different venues up
and down the Hudson to perform.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I gotta say it's the easiest time I've ever had
booking shows. If you put canoeing down the Hudson River
in a subject line, people open it up.
Speaker 8 (18:04):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
The hard part was finding venues on the water that
hosted music, But it wasn't that hard. I played some
places that were not venues. I played like the Landing
of a Lighthouse, and I played it a castle that's
on an island near Beacon. People on that river and
people on the Mississippi as well, are kind of a
(18:27):
special breed of hospitality and kindness where they've seen people
doing it before and they're open to it and willing
to lend out a helping hand. You need a shower,
you need a meal, like just completely trusting of strangers,
almost like you read about in ancient times, like the
(18:47):
ancient Greeks and stuff, welcoming people, welcoming the stranger. And
that just filled me with so much say and hope.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
This is not to say that doing a tour along
a river doesn't come with its unique challenges.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I completely forgot about Fleet Week when all the big
navy and merchant marine ships come into town, and we
had to paddle into Manpatan on the first day of
Fleet Week, and there were all these ships going around us,
massive ships with huge wakes. I mean, at one point
(19:32):
we were going over rollers that were like eight feet.
It was terrifying, and our boat was taken on water.
And also we weren't allowed to paddle close ashore because
there were patrol boats going around that didn't want any
private citizens coming close to these military vessels, you know,
(19:57):
anti terrorist patrol boats. I guess I guess we were.
We were a threat. That's two guys and life jackets
and a canoe with guitars into.
Speaker 6 (20:06):
Shame hanging.
Speaker 7 (20:11):
Young time on the lights.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And I just did a three month tour this fall
around the West coast and on land. Yeah, on land
and camped, which is also fun, going to national parks
and such with my wife. Maybe it's just because of
my background growing up camping with my family and as
(20:42):
a guy, but I think it's easier than touring in
a car, especially if you're on a big river with islands.
It's just all your gears in the boat. It's cheap,
you don't have to pay for gas, you don't have
to pay for camping most of the time because you
just gorilla camp. You pack all your food so you're
not aiming to eat out. You can't drink because the
(21:04):
last thing you want to do is wake up with
a hangover, and I don't know, for ten hours in
the sun, it's really healthy because you're getting exercise all day,
not just like sitting on your butt in a car.
So if I could, it would be, honestly the only
way I'd tour. It's just, yeah, it's a little bit
tough to work up logistically, but hopefully I dream about,
(21:27):
you know, someday if I move back to Minnesota, making
it a yearly thing to go down the Mississippi and
building up a fan base along the banks.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
On his most recent tour, Paul makes stops and out
of the way spots like Taos, New Mexico, and Bozeman, Montana.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
I tried mostly to play small, out of the way
towns because I just think it's so fun to bring
independent music to those places and it's very much appreciated,
and honestly, you end up making a little bit more
money too.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The Delaware is next on Paul's river bucket list.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
And I actually just talked on the phone with a
friend of mine from Ireland who recommended doing the Shannon
River because there's a lot of great little towns and pubs.
So I'm thinking of that too, But that's maybe two years.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
So Paul Spring. He's a man with a plan and
he's prolific, if not very popular, but just like his
canoe related ambition, in some parts of the world, his
popularity is growing.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Pottery Guy is my friend Joel Jericho. He lives across
the cornfield from the farm my wife grew up on
in Saint Joseph, Minnesota, and I've known him for fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Joel Jerico's clever time lapsed creative pottery videos, almost always
accompanied by music, have become an Internet sensation. One point
four million YouTube subscribers means nearly three million eyes and
ears on Joel's channel.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
He's a great potter. Where I'm from, there's a lot
of potters. My mom is a ceramicist, and it's a
big scene because of the ground the driftless, so the
glaciers just left a lot of clay, good clay. But
he figured out how to really make a living off
of his pottery by using social media. I feel like
he was an influencer before they became a thing. He
(23:14):
figured it out very early by putting on Facebook Live
and getting people to buy his pots that way. Still,
he's been really good about supporting the music made by
people from Saint Joe and Saint Cloud, and in the
(23:34):
background of these videos, he's always playing like he could
play any music he wanted. He could play Radiohead or
Red Hot Chili Peppers or whatever, but instead he plays
music from our town and in doing so exposes us
to this huge audience. I think one of the songs
(23:56):
he put on a video has like four hundred million listens.
So I'm just incredibly grateful to him on this tour
I did. While I was out on tour, he put
Far from the Flame on one of his videos, and
(24:16):
it was two weeks before the album came out, and
I sent him a text and like, Joel, that song
isn't out yet, man, like thanks for sharing it. But
I was kind of waiting, and I was completely wrong
because the song blew up, or the video blew up
rather and people liked the song in the background. Next
thing I know, there's like two thousand comments of I
(24:38):
can't find this song? Where do I find this song?
I found the guy, but the album hasn't come out yet,
and it generated all this buzz and I got all
these pre saves and followers, and I had people coming
out to my shows to hear the song and coming
(24:58):
up to me at the merch boo, and it just
created this organic buzz that I had never experienced before.
Kind of taught me a lesson about marketing your stuff
and building excitement, and it was a complete surprise to me,
(25:28):
and it was so fun to have it happen while
I was out on the road. And it brought a
much younger audience than I've had in the past, at
high school kids whose moms were driving them two hours
to come to the shows. And as they saw this
pottery video.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Who needs a record label when you got friends in
the pottery world. Paul Spring is the quintessential indie musician.
He's in it for the adventure, for the experience, even
if some parts of his trade will always leave a
pit in the stomach. The soldiers on for all the
right reasons.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
You know. I saw last week that one hundred fifty
thousand songs are being uploaded every day, and that is
just unfathomable. And I'm happy that everyone's up there making music.
But when you hear some of the music, you wonder, like,
how much time did you actually spend on this? What
(26:26):
does this mean to you? I spent my entire twenties.
I'm threety five now, so depressed at not having any
listeners to my music going on. I would like drive
around Minnesota and play at Wineries for three hours and
play covers and Bryan play my originals, but nobody wanted
(26:46):
to hear them. Back then, I was printing CDs and
I still have boxes of those CDs in my garage
back home, like it was really rough for a long
long time. That is a.
Speaker 7 (27:07):
Home.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
It's only now in my thirties where I'm where I can.
It's not even that good now. You know, I'm lucky
if I can sell sell seventy tickets in New York.
A lot of times in New York, nobody shows up
to a show. It's competitive, market's oversaturated, and you don't
get paid anything. So the only way to do it
(27:33):
and be persistent is to read it almost like a
spiritual practice. This is my way of communion with magic
and with something I really love, and just trying to
keep that slam alive and not grow jaded, and honestly
just having a job on the side, because there's nothing
(27:54):
wrong with having a job. And unfortunately, just like the
way the rest of the world works, I think maybe
by now you can tell I have a chip on
my shoulder about inherited wealth. But when I worked at
that recording studio in Queen's and we would record some
pretty big artists and the people who would come through
(28:16):
the studio, I just noticed, Man, so many of these
people come from money. And the way that they're able
to do music, learn instruments, record music, pay for it,
get connected with record labels, pay for press. All this
stuff is because they have it in the first place.
This is a strong statement, but I think the best
(28:36):
music comes from the bottom up and then it gets
appropriated by the people at the top. So I want
to motivate people. I know, I said it's the pressing
that one hundred and fifty thousand songs get uploaded a day,
But in a way, it can also be inspiring that
in today's day and age, people have the access to
(29:00):
sleep recording software and the ability to put their music out.
If at the core of what music is it's supposed
to be about making community and engaging with a tradition,
then I think it's kind of a beautiful thing that
we're in this place right now, and hopefully the financial
(29:23):
side will sort itself out by the techno utilist corporate
overlords giving up some of their cash and paying musicians properly.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yep, the struggle is real. But is it a struggle
if it's really spiritual? Paul surrounded himself with angels. The
folks at Sonny's Bar who host them every month, the
pottery guy who pimps out his music to his online fans,
all the folks who offered a shower or a meal
on his river tours, the musicians from his neighborhood, and
most of all, his high school sweetheart who became his wife,
(30:09):
not to mention his unofficial producer and graphic designer.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
She plays a big part. And then all of the
artwork on all of my albums was done by her.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Oh wow, I didn't know that. That's awesome. Yeah, Paul's
already got a new album in his back pocket that
he plans to put out in the new year, and
he's got another new one about halfway done. Dude's been
putting out two albums per year on his own terms,
sometimes on land, sometimes on water, and always putting the
art before the business.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
My issue is that I'm a bit impatient, and I'm
maybe not very fun to work with because I make
an album and I want to put it out three
months later, and labels just that's not what they can't
do that.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Well, they can do that, but even for a business
that's mostly busted, that's mostly against the rules. And so
Paul Spring paddles forward solo and without regret. The rules
are his and his alone to make, and that's the
way he likes it. It's also a big reason why
we like his music.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Thanks so much for sharing it and doing this interview.
It means a lot because it's hard. So any chance
I get to talk with somebody or any album that's
bought just means a world to me because I'm doing
it all out of this little apartment in Queens.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Find out more about Paul, sample all his music, including
the new album Kind of Heaven, and check out upcoming
show dates at Paul spring music dot com, support him
on bandcamp, and follow him on social media at Paul
spring Music. Big thanks to Paul for the words and
the wisdom, and you know I love rolling on a
river with you. Loyal podcast listener, do me a favor,
(32:04):
Subscribe and leave a kind review for Independent Minded on
Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can share the links, tell
your friends, and buy some music at baldfreak dot com.
And if you just want to say hi or send
me your latest tunes, you can do that at Ron
at baldfreak dot com. Keep up with the latest Baldfreak
music and podcast news and pictures of my dog on
(32:25):
social media at Baldfreak Music, Independent Mind. And it's a
bald Freak Music production. And me, I'm still Ron Scalzo.
Speaker 7 (32:35):
You're n
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