Episode 12 - Tommy Vietor

Tommy Vietor is a co-founder of Crooked Media and a co-host of the podcasts Pod Save America and Pod Save the World. Tommy worked for President Obama for nine years, including a stint as White House National Security Spokesman.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is interrupted by Matt Jones on news radio weight fortys.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Now Here's Matt Jones.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
It's episode twelve of Interrupted by Matt Jones, presented by
Cornbread Hemp. This is the Good Life. We are excited
today to have as a guest someone that I've known,
you know, for the last couple of years, named Tommy Vitoor.
He works for Pod Save America, worked on the Obama campaign,
and worked in the White House. He is interesting to me,

(00:32):
not just because of that background, but also because he's
been one of the critics of the Democratic Party and
how things have developed in recent years and how they've
kind of become detached from places like Kentucky, and so
I wanted to discuss with him a lot of those issues.
And you know, with all the stuff on the Epstein Files,

(00:53):
this is a guy who deals with Washington every day.
So I wanted to bring Tommy on and get his
take on some stuff. All right, now, happy to be
joined by Tommy Vtour. That's how your people pronounce your name,
like ten different ways. What's the right way?

Speaker 2 (01:08):
You got it? You nailed it, Vitor Vtur.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
That's what my producer said, And I'm glad he.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Got it right, he got it. I've given up caring
long ago. It was a great way to filter out
calls back in the day when we had a landline.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Oh yeah, I'd like, he doesn't really know who I am.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
That's uh mister, I like it.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Well, Tommy worked obviously for the Obama campaign. Now does
pod Administration? Now does Pod Save America? Probably the most successful,
uh podcast on the left. I would think, Tommy, Yeah,
there are so many things I want to talk to
you about, but we might as well just kind of
get started with with the news. And I remember when

(01:48):
the first I learned of Epstein and all the Epstein things,
I thought, like a lot of things in life, there
was probably less to it than everybody wanted there to be,
because fiction is often greater than reality, and that I
thought there was probably less conspiracy than people thought. And
then the way this administration in Congress has acted now

(02:10):
has me wondering if there was a lot more to it.
I'm almost kind of drifting into conspiracy world, which I
don't like. Where are you on all this? And how
do you explain the actions of the Trump administration and everybody?
With the Epstein files?

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I have gone on the same journey as you did,
and first of all, thanks for having me. I always
assumed that it was basically the conspiracy was hiding in
plain sight, like this guy had a lot of connections,
he had a lot of money. He used those connections
in that money to get away with horrific crimes. And
MEDIOJ said he had like a thousand victims.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
I don't know, that's unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
I know, I don't know if that's individuals he harmed
or like that includes sort of like images he downloaded,
et cetera. But it's still like an unbelievable number. So
that's what I assumed. The what happened obviously, you know,
his death in twenty nineteen while in prison and is
incredibly suspicious. None of the explanations made sense, like there
was no tape of the cell area, then all of

(03:07):
a sudden they found one, So like the story was
a little weird. But I'm like, I'm with you. I mean,
Trump's reaction to just trying to shut down this story
has fully red pilled me to believe that there is
something in these files that he is really worried about.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Political consultant class. I mean, you were someone who would
give advice to presidents. They ran on the let's release it.
Trump said it many times, his son said it many times. Yeah,
presumably he knew at that point what he had or
had not done. Did he think everyone would just forget

(03:44):
or like, what do you think happened?

Speaker 2 (03:46):
What's interesting is if you look back at his interviews,
you'd get asked kind of like a series of things
to be like, well, you released the Alien files. He'd
be like, yeah, JFK files. Sure, And then his answer
on Epstein was always a little more halting and a
little more circumspect, and you're right there, Like Jade Vance
was like, yeah, we got to do that. He told Theovan, Yeah,
we got to release the Epstein files. Don Junior was
ranting and raving about them. Cash Betel now the FBI director,

(04:10):
Dan Mangino, the deputy FBI director. Those guys were like
they made it a cause because I think they probably
realized when they talked about it in their podcast they
got a lot of clicks.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
I assume Trump just thought he could like tell his
flock what to do at any point and they would listen.
But it's not going that way.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
And that okay. So that's for years that has been
the case. Kind of whatever Trump said forty percent of
Americans would just do this seems different, and I'm sort
of surprised why. I mean, he's he I am not
a fan, but he's done many things that are controversial,

(04:47):
taken many positions that are antithetical to what you would
think Republican beliefs are, and people have gone with him.
Why do you think this is different? Why do you
think this is a line people are drawing. Is it
just the horrendous of the allegations.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
I think that for some of his base, it is
the horrendousness of the allegations in this feeling that there
are children being harmed somewhere and he needs to take
down this pedophile ring to protect them. I mean, that's
kind of like core to the q Andon theory as well.
I think for others, though, Trump's appeal was I'm going
to burn down a system that you hate, and I'm
going to take down the people that you hate, the elites,

(05:25):
And now he seems to be covering up for them,
and I think that is just undercutting his core message
in a way that we've never really seen before.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
You let's go back, you worked for Obama and it's
almost impossible to not see the way, even though they're
vastly different people. The way Obama was able to capture
the Democratic Party not in a cult like way, but
in a way that voters like me just fell in
love with him. And Trump has done it a different

(05:54):
way with the Republican Party. But how do you compare
the appeal those two people have had add to their
party as a whole. How do you see there's similar
similarities and differences.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
I think what's remarkable about Trump is that for the
duration of his time on the scene, he has basically
been able to put up like Kim Jong Yiel Saddam
Hussein numbers with his base. Yeah, and Democrats liked Obama,
but they were quick to let us know when we
pissed them off, you know what I mean, like things.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
How would they let you know? Like, what would they do?

Speaker 2 (06:29):
They wouldn't turn out in midterms, you know, people would raise,
you know, concerns in Congress. You know. I just think
there was more dissent in the Democratic Party because, as
you know very well, like the Democratic Party is a
far more motley collection of different people and groups and demographics, right,
I mean, the Republican Party is pretty it's less homogenous
now under Trump. We should give him that credit for that,

(06:50):
especially this the last selection. He brought in Latino voters,
Black voters, but you know, the base is pretty homogeneous.
I think, Biden, I'm sorry, Biden. I think Obama. Look
our message our guard signs in two thousand and eight,
just at Hope, right.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
Like that's very simple, one word, yes, simple.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
The appeal was to kind of the better angels that
we can and he.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Reflected an idea of America that I think, especially on
the left, but even moderates, even some people on the right,
would like to think America is here's a person who
came from very little, multi ethnic background and he can
reach this highest thing. That's like what America wants to
be in some ways.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah, I look, I think there's a lot of people
that love America, love our country everything it stands for,
its ideals, but are ashamed of the history, you know,
slavery and Jim Crow and segregation. And there was I
think a very naive suggestion, not by Obama but by
commentators that Obama would lead to a post racial America.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
This fixes now we're good, Like now we don't have
to think about all that stuff anymore. We elected Obama,
Yeah exactly, And that still gets brought up sometimes by
the way, Well if we elected Obama, we can't be
all that bad, right yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
And it's like, well, you know so much to tell
them about reconstruction, right, I mean, yeah, we kin kind
of lurch forward and taking back.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
When you met Obama? When did you meet him? You
were was it? Where was it in his rise? Et cetera.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
So I got a job on his campaign in two
thousand and four, on the Senate campaign.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Okay, do you know Danielle Gray?

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Oh my god, yeah, of course I did.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
So I clerked with Danielle Gray on the d C circuit.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
And oh my god, I love daniel Gray.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
You worked for Merrit Gardland and I worked for Ray Randolph,
who was the worst. But uh, I was friends with
all the Garland people, and I Danielle became one of
my good friends. And I remember she told me one
day there's this guy who's going to run for Senate
named Barack Obama. I'm thinking about going and working for him.
And he came to d C and I went to

(08:47):
lunch with them way, and I had never heard of
the guy, and I remember thinking, this dude's kind of impressive.
You know, never would have thought president. Did you have
that same thought when you kind of got got with him?

Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, I mean, look, I was a kid, right, I
was twenty three, twenty four. I remember it was a
late night in the office. I was sitting on the floor.
I didn't have shoes on, which was cool, and I
was putting together like press packets, like physical copies of paper.
And he walked in and I was like, Hey, nice
to meet you. You know, that's always the first impression
you dream of making with your boss, right, Like she
was sweaty because the air conditioning would click off at six,

(09:21):
so we would just like sweat bullets through our clothes.
But yeah, no, I mean I think I was there
with him, you know, sort of the summer before that
DNC convention speech, and I.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Was it's not a red state or not a red America,
blue America, it's all yeah that speech.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, And you know, look I was, I was with him.
I one of my jobs was I would go to
every single event that we did downstate in Illinois, and
I would you know, when we had reporters traveling with us,
I'd drive the press van, which you know, Republicans like
to make fun of me for now, but it's like
I worked my way up and so I saw him
at every event, and I would see him in you know,
predominantly black audiences in Chicago and then the white of

(10:00):
the white you know, farms in Peoria or wherever it was,
and I could just see him connecting with people and
I could see the appeal. Then you fast forward to
Boston and that DNC.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
But let me go back to that. Before he gets
asked to do the Boston convention, he's running against what
was his name, Alan something?

Speaker 2 (10:16):
What was the guy be?

Speaker 1 (10:19):
Mike Ditka right at one, which would have been hard
because I'm a big Bears fan. But was there a
moment when you're driving the van in Peoria where you
said I could see this guy being president?

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yes, there there were. I look after the DNC speech,
it was a big part of the conversation around him,
whether he liked it or not. But before that, I mean,
he just sort of had a unique temperament that I
think is valuable in politics, where he just tried to
meet people where they were at, He tried to persuade them,

(10:54):
He didn't, you know, condescend to them. Like he just
had an ability to connect with people that looked nothing
like him, that seemed nothing like him, and that was inspiring.
I mean, look, I worked for John Edwards in two
thousand and four. By the way, Danielle Gray is a
is a Duke fan.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
You know that, right, No, I know. I mean that's
we used to fight about it. She was a Duke
fan and I was Kentucky and we would get that
year on the DC circuit. For me, to me, you
have to understand, like I couldn't stand my boss, and
so I ended up spending all my time with clerks.
I got to know John Roberts. He couldn't have been
nicer to me during that year. Merrick Garland, David Tatle

(11:30):
and then the clerks and Danielle was maybe my favorite person.
Danielle and a guy named Eric Berger who was also
a Garland clerk, the three of us, like I spent
time with him all the time. So when she said
she was going to work for this guy, I was
immediately intrigued. But I never thought he was going to
be president. I mean it's just a whole other level.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah. Look, no, anyone who tells you they would have
they saw, you know, the jump from two thousand and
four to two thousand and eight presidency is lying or
they were, you know, doing a fantasy camp. But you
know you saw that. You could see the talent in him,
the ability to communicate, the ability to give a speech
and reach people. And you also sort of uniquely positioned
at that moment having been a post to the Iraq
War before it started, as it was clearly becoming a disaster.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, and that was not a position of a lot
of even Democrats then they kind of was an all
all in things. So he gives a speech in Boston
and then you said he hasn't a unique talent being
able to meet people where they are. I think that's true.
Democrats certainly until the twenty twenty four election have not

(12:30):
had that. They've lost that talent, in my opinion, they
stop you and I've had conversations about this. They became
at some point judgy and less willing to show grace
and move. Do you agree with that sentence? And then,
if so, why do you think that happened?

Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah? And well, I think sometimes it's helpful to be
precise in these conversations because I wonder if what we're
really talking about is the treatment of people by online
mobs versus actual elected officials. Know, I totally agree with you,
and I've talked about this a lot, Like there was
a period of time, let's say twenty sixteen through a
year or two ago maybe, where there was this sentiment

(13:10):
where you were just honestly not allowed to converse with
people that you disagreed with, Like you couldn't us always
about like, how dare you platform that person?

Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, that was a big word, platform people.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, platforming. How dare you go on a show like right?
I've talked about how my friend asked me to come
on a barstool show in twenty eighteen. I said no
because I was kind of like, look, man, you know,
our audience would kill me because of some things Dave
Portnoy said. And I really really regret that, and I
find it embarrassing that I let myself kind of be
like cowed by the online mob. And I've taken a

(13:41):
bunch of steps to kind of affirmatively go the other
direction and try to do stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
But it's easy to say that you regret it, but
in the moment, because I've been there. When the online
left mob comes at you, it can be hard, Like
it can be really hard because you there's a level
of like it's hard to defend yourself because no one
sticks up for the moderate line, you know, like that's

(14:09):
the worst position you can be in some ways online.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah, oh absolutely, you know it drives me crazy, Like
intra party stuff always feels the worst because I don't
care what Ben Shapiro says about me, right, but like
I do care what kind of people that you know
in the party that I share a belief system with.
And it is really annoying when people like tell you
that talking to someone else means you suddenly hold their views.

(14:34):
I mean, like that's so stupid, and what context does
that exist anywhere else outside of like progressive.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Thing and you're in Barack Obama would go on with
Bill O'Reilly right, Like, I mean, he would do those things.
So do you think we've gotten past that? I mean,
I know I've seen people going on theo vonn and
Joe Rogan and barstool And do you think that that
sort of stopping people from talking to the general public

(15:00):
think that's ending?

Speaker 2 (15:01):
I think it's at the moment it is I don't
think that. You know, we haven't repaired all the damage,
but it's starting, right. You're seeing like Pete Boudhage Edge
doing a bunch of these shows. Jon Favreau and I
went on the Flagrant podcast the other day exact Andrew Schultz, Yeah,
nerw Schultz. And by the way, those guys are not
like MAGA in any way. They're just like I think,
they're kind of independent to vote for Democrats and Republicans. Yeah,
got kind of pigeonholed in this. You know, I hate

(15:23):
this term. We need a new term, the manosphere space right.
But like you know, Bernie went on Joe Rogan a
couple of years ago. Rogan basically endorsed Bernie, and then
people attacked Bernie for some of the things Joe Rogan
had said about the trans community. And my argument to
those people would be have Bernie go on to show
and talk about it and debate them.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah. I mean that's what I sometimes will fight with
with liberals. Okay, So you know, when I thought about
running for Senate, I was very worried about getting through
a primary with the liberal people, specifically in Louisville, because
I was a Kentucky guy, you know, And so I
got them, put Tommy, all of the liberal leaders in
Louisville in a room like sixty people, and I said,

(16:07):
I want to just let's let's talk. Can this work?
And it went horrible. Now now part of it's my fault.
My argumentative side came out and it just didn't. It
didn't work. But part of it was also I said,
I'm not going to be like outspoken against coal because
I come from coal country and like, I can cut

(16:27):
our losses in coal country, but I can't be out
there being against coal when I grew up in coal
country and that was sacrilege. Do you think it is
hard I feel like it is harder on our side
to take any position that is not not it's that
is not sort of the exact like exactly what the

(16:48):
left wants without just being sold out as a person completely.
Or do you think that's changing.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
I think both sides struggle with this. I think that
there you are always going to be pulled by activists
or interest groups or just you know, well meaning people
to take a maximalist position. And one of the hardest
things to argue is that by taking the maximalist position,
you will not be elected, and therefore you could do
harm to that issue, Right, Like if you went hard

(17:14):
on coal and then you lose your election, are you
going to do more value to Democrats than if you
took a more modern position and got elected.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Joe is a perfect example of that. Yeah, when people
would go after Joe Manchin in West Virginia, I would
always say, who do you think is going to replace him?
Like if you get if you make Joe Manchin, you
think they're gonna get somebody more liberal in West Virginia,
Like he's the only one that can win. But I
it doesn't feel like people think like that enough in
our party.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah, I think two things can be true. I think
I'd much rather have Joe Manchin than the alternative. And
also he could be an annoying dick, you know, So
that's where I stand.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Is he annoying? I've always he really recruited me, and
he was always He's always nice to make sure he's fine.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
He's just get some really stupid positions, like he opposed
like the child tax credit, something that it would have
been enormously benefited poor kids in his state. Yeah, because
he thought like mombs were cycling off and like buying drugs.
It was just a very dumb kind of racists. You
on a pipe.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
But do you think the country's better now that he
lost and there's justice.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
Is in Nope. And I like his dog, but I
don't like him.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, you like his dog, all right? So Obama, year,
did you work in the White House the whole time?
I did?

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Four years? I did. I left him sort of March
of twenty thirteen. I was a spokesman in the Press
office for a couple of years. Then I got promoted
to the National Security Staff that I was the NSC
press guy for a couple of years, and then you know,
four years of that and then you know the campaign.
I was just cooked.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
So just on a human level, because I mean, you
live in the political world. But like there's a lot
of people listening to this who just would think working
at the White House is the coolest thing in the world.
Isn't that true?

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Oh? Absolutely? Yeah. Look, I mean it is getting to
work like I'm the luckiest bastard in the world to
like I got to start working for Barack Obama in
two thousand and four. I owe everything in my career
to him and the association with him and his willingness
to like bring this dumb kid who we mets and
barefoot on the floor, like all the way with him

(19:20):
to the White House. Right in terms of the job itself,
like it is the most interesting, exciting job I will
ever have. If you're like a curious person to work
in the government, like you when you can just kind
of call anyone in the United States government and kind
of ask them to give you information or explain something, like,
it's an incredible opportunity.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
So give me all day, Tommy, like like you walk
into the office, give me average day in the life
of Tommy Vitour in the White House.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
I mean it sort of depends on whether there's a
rolling disaster about to be a rolling disaster in the world,
but like you know, wake up, what six something like that,
Just inhale as much information as you can, like I
would have like NPR streaming as I'm in the shower,
you're listening to something, and on the bus on the
way to work, you get there, you have your morning meeting,
you kind of figure out what's going on. Like the
biggest part of my day was every day there was

(20:11):
a there used to be a White House briefing. Is
a guy named Robert Gibbs is the press secretary of
another guy named Jay Carney, and you had to make
sure they were prepared for what they might get asked
at the podium later today. So you're kind of like
cruising on that all day, and then you just have
incoming from reporters who are asking you questions about god
knows what ben Ghazi, you know, like Afghanistan. Yeah, those

(20:32):
are the things I was focused on. And then there's
the thing that you're trying to proactively put out. Often
for me that was like domestic stuff like healthcare or something,
So it wasn't kind of my bucket of issues. But
you know, when there was a foreign trip coming up
or a foreign leader meeting, it was stuff like that.
And then when Obama would have a big interview or
a press conference, like sometimes they would call in me
to like be a part of that prep although usually

(20:54):
it was like my bosses who are more likely to
be there.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
When you move to national security, mean, that's heavy stuff.
So do you when you like with ben Ghazi, do
you have to learn I mean you have to learn
about all these areas that presumably you didn't know a
lot about before that.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
That's the most interesting thing I took over in like
twenty eleven. Shortly after I got there, I think it
was after I got there, like there was this horrific
earthquake in Haiti. A couple days later, I find myself,
you know, in the back of a C seventeen, flying
down to Port of Prints and sleeping on the floor
of the embassy there for like a week, trying to
like kind of coordinate media inquiries and tell people about
what we're doing down there, because you know, you're just

(21:32):
trying to keep the American people apprized of where their
tax dollars are going so they support it, right. But yeah, yeah,
then like when there's a crisis happened, like the Arab
Spring happened shortly after you know, I remember there were
there were some weeks when when something was crazy in
the world and it was happening in the middle of
the night, the White House Situation Room would call you
and man, there's no like more startling way to get

(21:53):
out of bed like these days. For me, it's the
nanet for those Internet of kids who don't know, this
is like the intercom that tells you every time your
kids chirps or moves over.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, I don't have kids. That sounds awful, but okay, yeah, you.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Know it means you never sleep. But like I'd get
calls at three in the morning and it'd be like, sir,
the uh something something square and Bahrain fell to the
you know, protesters, and I'm like, what the hell am
I gonna do with this information? I guess I'll get
up now at two in the morning and go to
the office.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
But yeah, it was fascinating because you get you get
drawn into meetings with very senior people and you just
learn a fascinating stuff from experts, and that includes like
you know, Secretary of State but also all the intelligence.
You just get a fire hose of that in a crisis.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
But you ever pinched yourself then at that point and go,
I am sitting here working on you know, the Arab Spring,
I'm sitting here working with and a president. I'm sitting
here seeing this devastation in Haiti, and this is what
I'm supposed to do? Something about it that would seem
to be just for people who are thoughtful, like an

(22:57):
overwhelming amount of responsibility.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah it is. And luckily I was young and dumb
and didn't think about it enough. With the benefit of hindsight,
it is a little overwhelming. I mean, look again, I
was a younger person, so I had, you know, sort
of layers between me and the president usually, but there
were definitely times when you sit around in a meeting,
especially national security meeting, whether it was like the the

(23:21):
way they do it is there's something called the Deputies Committee,
So it's like the deputies of all the relevant agencies,
the deputy Secretary of State, the deputy Defense Secretary. They
have a meeting, they try to get as much work
done as possible. Then it gets kicked up to the
Principal's Committee, so that's the secretaries of all the relevant agencies.
Then the president has a final meeting and signs off.
So you sit through all of those, And there were
definitely times where I was sitting around hearing people debate something.

(23:45):
I was like, like, you have this feeling like there's
got to be another meeting happening somewhere.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
Else, right, nobody's gonna have to tell us that, Like
the adults are in charge.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, you know, like what am I doing here?

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Tell me one thing about Barack Obama that the average
person does it know that you think it would be
good if they did know.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
I think what was pretty remarkable about him as a
boss is like the kind of even keel, Like the
knock on him is like, oh he's professor Oriole, he's
two calm whatever. But like he never yelled at us,
you know, and that's rare in politics.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Really got angry.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
Like he maybe did it again the inner circle. Maybe
he was screaming at the chief of staff. But like
every I worked for the guy for nine years, and
like what you'd get was, you know, disappointed Dad. I'm
not going to punish you, but like you let me down,
and boy, that was crushing. But I think that says
something about the character of the of the guy that like, again,

(24:42):
there's a lot of screamers. There's a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
There are a lot of screams. Okay, give me some screamers.
Can you give me some screamers who are notorious Republican
or Democrats who are notorious screamers.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
Joe Biden, he gets a little prickly.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Joe Biden is a screamer. I didn't realize that. Well,
it's good. Maybe people will be glad to know because
they didn't think he was awake. He screamed sometimes all right, he.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Gets a little spicy in meetings. You know. I don't
know if he yelled or not, but like Chuck Schumer
was kind of notorious for kind of like walking his
staff into a conference room and being like, figure out
how to get me on the front.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Page of the paper. Chuck Schumer kind of yelled at me.
He yelled at me once. Yeah, when he called me.
I went to Washington and met with him because he
didn't want me to run against Amy McGrath, and he
kind of did that go well. I mean, I told
him Amy's gonna lose by twenty points and he was like, oh,
no way, she's got I said, look, whether I run

(25:38):
or not, she's losing by twenty points either way. And
but he got really on me and he was like,
if you'll wait your turn, we'll have you run somewhere else.
And I said, I mean, I don't work for you.
But he sort of he had an air of almost
he should get to decide who runs everywhere. And it
was it was odd because I was meeting him for

(25:59):
the first time and he was like such a lecturer.
It was insane to me that and that's.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
A I think a real problem in the Democratic Party
generally like telling young, energetic, exciting people to wait your turn. Yeah,
Democrats need to just stopped doing that.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
Why do you think they do that?

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Because I don't know, there's we have a gerontocracy problem.
Like Republicans I think have six year uh uh statute
to limitations on statute limitation is the wrong word. You
know what I'm saying, you can only serve six years
as a committee chair. Oh, they do, and we don't
do that, right, we don't do that, and I think
we should see that.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
I mean, we're supposed to be the party of young people.
Why would you not do that? I mean that haven't
we had three people die in office this this term.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
I think the last last eight that died in office
were Democrats. That's crazy to me.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
I mean that saying that is no wonder. Trump did
better with younger people than a Republican had done in
a long time. I mean, there's they have. When I
think of Republican spokespeople, I think of, for the most part,
younger people. And with Democrats, I still see Chuck Schumer
and I saw him twenty five years ago.

Speaker 2 (27:05):
Here's the most generous interpretation. I think when you dedicate
your life to politics, and you run for office and
it's the thing you've done, and it's your entire identity
and your social group and your reason for existing. Retiring
is not just about leaving a job. It's like ending
your life in a sense. But isn't that not what's.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
Supposed to be politics? Are It's not supposed to be
a career, or at least I mean at least the
cert like the serving in office. When did we decide?
And again, I like a lot of these people, but
I mean Patrick Layy was in office for like why,
Chuck Grassley's in office forever?

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Like why?

Speaker 1 (27:39):
I mean, there are people that can do it.

Speaker 2 (27:42):
I'm just trying to get into, like the psychology of
their heads. I totally agree with you. I think, like
you know, George Washington walked away, right, we should see
that as.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
A noble exactly. He seemed like he did an all
right job. I mean, now as good as Trump according to.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
Hi, Yeah right.

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good life. Okay, So you go back to go back
to you work there at the White House. We asked
you who the screamers were. Now you decided to go
into media. I remember first hearing you on the Ringer.

(28:57):
Isn't that where you all started was on the and uh.
I remember listening to you and John and those guys,
and I thought, man, this is such a cool thing
they're doing. Bill Simmons. How was he like to work
with Bill? Was great?

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Look Bill, Bill gave us this first real opportunity, which
was just kind of like doing this thing as a hobby. Yeah,
to keep it in sixteen hundred. It was a show
that covered the twenty sixteen race. We were catastrophically wrong
about everything. Everyone thought that Trump couldn't possibly win, that
Hillary was, you know, couldn't lose Pennsylvania. Uh, and then
the election happens and everyone is devastated. We're devastated. And

(29:34):
one of the things we felt in watching and covering
that election was just absolute frustration at how bad the
media coverage was. Like, remember this was a time when
you turn on CNN and it would be a panel
of like nine people, and it would be a bunch
of Democrats screaming at that guy Jeffrey Lord, who was
like we.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Were Jeffrey Lord. Yeah, yeah, he was the old guy.
He was the only person that would stand up for Trump,
and he ended up end up winning.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
He was right and we were wrong. But like, you
watch an hour of that and you'd be like, I
feel dumber, I feel depressed. Yeah, I didn't talk about
anything substantive. So we wanted to start not just a show,
but an entire company built around trying to give people
like more substantive coverage of the election. Talk in a
way that normal people talk, but then also just be
openly partisan and honest about our bias and encourage people

(30:20):
to be activists in their own life and to get engaged.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
Well, that's kind of become the standard. Now, why do
you think everybody was wrong about Trump? I mean, I
I there's a guy here in Kentucky named Joe Sanka
who's a reporter, and back when I did another version
of this podcast many years ago, I would have him
on and he would he said to me, like, after
the Iowa Caucus, Donald Trump will be the next president,
and I just would get so mad at him and say,

(30:45):
no way, there's no way that can happen. I didn't
think he'd win the Republican primary. What did we all
get so wrong in twenty sixteen about the rise of Trump?

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Look, I mean, part of the certainty with which you
heard like kind of the pundit class myself included talking
about the outcome was like all the polling was way
off right. I mean, they're just there was this you
know there it just seemed like Hillary was running away
with it in all these states, and there were just
a lot of numbers that were just catastrophically wrong. I
also think, like stepping back a bit, it's when you're

(31:18):
super engaged in this stuff, like this is the biggest
divide in politics. Is it freaks like us who read
about politics every day and normal people that just like
engage once a month for a couple hours. And you know,
we're like, oh, he's a con man, he's this, he
lied about that, And they're just like, you know what,
all these guys lie, yes, but he seems different and
at least he's going to try something new was going on,

(31:39):
you know what I mean, And like I should have
been more attuned to that appeal. And also I think
some of the political deficiencies of Hillary Clinton because we'd
run against her and we'd defeated her, and I think,
you know, there was this anti establishment sentiment out there
of eight years of Obama and we're like, here is
the most establishment figure we could possibly offer you.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah, I said, no. You know, it's interesting the I
actually think people follow politics more now than they did
back then. I mean, I think Trump because he's such
an entertaining figure to the masses. Whether they like him
or hate him, they just talk about him more. I
mean I teach a group of college students and I say,
you know, there was a time that when you were
in college to care about politics was the dorkiest thing.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
You can do.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
And now they all at least have some opinion, whether
they you know, they have some thought that. I do
think he's done that. He's made these things conversations that
more people are interested in than they used to be.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Oh. Absolutely, Like politics used to be kind of played
between the forty yard lines. Yeah, you know, like there's
decorum and there was this you know that you're Shane
gillis the of course, yeah right. He's got a great
bit on this where it's like everyone watched that first
Republican project.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
That's about Ram Pauld. He was like his hair stinks and.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
It was like w W and everyone's like, wait, you
can do this, you can do this, and.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
It's but he's there's a lot of brilliance in that
little bit because there was a sense of he just
made it like he made WW is the best example.
I mean, you know, I do wrestling stuff and he
is He's all he made wrestling politics, and I think
that's terrible for the country, but it was successful for

(33:11):
getting elected.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Absolutely, And like his genius, Trump is a genius when
it comes to dominating the media narrative every doubt, yeah,
you know, and and doing it in a shameless way,
like he's currently accusing Barack Obama of treason to avoid
talking about the EPP.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
But it will also just be like I don't like
paper straws, and you know, people who don't really know
a lot about government, I hate I hate paper straws too,
So if you don't know a lot about government, you
can go, well, I mean Trump's right about those paper straws.
I mean that's and then he'll say, hey, McDonald's needs
to do this, or the commanders should be the redskins,
and like things like that do resonate with the average person.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Right absolutely. It's also just very simple, right if you
and I were to try to go out to a
group of your students and tell them all about the big,
beautiful bill that passed and how it's going to impact
medicaid and states and the phasings and the tax reductions
and the work liked, I'm bored at myself right now.
If he's out there just being like Coca Cola, it's
gonna put real sugar in the coke. Everyone get that.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Everybody gets it. And Shay Gillis was right. He looked
at that debate and he goes, Ram, Paul looks stupid,
and they're really you know, Ted Cruz's dad killed John F. Kennedy.
There comes a point like, how are you supposed to
debate this?

Speaker 2 (34:23):
So let me ask you that, and that I remember
canceling plans in twenty fifteen.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
To watch it.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, to watch debates. You wanted to watch what I
wanted to do. Yeah, I get it.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
I went to the Republican Convention in twenty sixteen. There's
a picture of me when Trump's giving his acceptance speech.
I'm in the second row and I look like Charlie
kirk As. I'm looking so happy at him and I
can't stand him. But it was kind of entertaining to
sit there and listen to him.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
So I mean that's that's the way it goes. How
do you think? I mean, he's hopefully never gonna run again.
What would have been the best way? I mean, Biden
beat him in twenty twenty, But I think COVID was
a big part of that. The desire to try to
get to If you were creating the candidate in a
box that you think would have been most likely to

(35:07):
beat Trump, who would it be?

Speaker 2 (35:10):
You know, like, with the benefit of hindsight, If brock
Or keeps saying Obama, if Joe Biden had stepped down
in twenty twenty two and we had had a raucous
open primary, I think that would have been the best path.
I think the strongest candidate would have been someone who
could make a credible outsider message, Like not a senator,

(35:31):
not someone who's kind of like a fixture of Washington,
like someone like you know, Governor Basher. Frankly, you could say, like,
but I mean I love.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
Govern I like Governor b but I mean he is
a fixture of politics. His dad was the governor and.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
He was I mean he is a he is a
for Kentucky, yeah true, but like for the for the nation. Ever,
like no one's heard of him. There's like who is this? Look,
I'm not like endorsing the guy. I'm just saying, like
you imagine you're a random voter, You're like, who's this?
You know, a good looking younger guy with a nice
family who apparently is really popular in Kentucky and.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
Did yeah thing, I totally see why that would work. Yeah,
what about? I mean, what how come we don't You
and I had conversations about creating this idea of a
left Joe Rogan and then two months after you and
I had him there in the New York Times, and
it kind of almost becomes cheesy the way they want
to create one out of out of clay What who?

(36:18):
I mean, who's our Donald Trump? I mean, who's our
person not in politics that comes out of nowhere and
does it? Because it? I mean, wouldn't that be a
better way to go?

Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah? I mean the closest at the moment is probably
Mark Cuban, right, Like he's known for other things, He's
got an ability to kind of step into a news
cycle and take it over and get attention. John Stuart Real,
John Stewart, Stephen Colbert actually is kind of an interesting
dark horse.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
He's got to get more people watching his show before
we Yeah, Trump.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Is Trump is like a singular he has ready. I
think The Apprentice like built him this. It was the
book The Apprentice, Like he had this brand that was
so hardened in the public consciousness before he ran and
then he did his thing.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
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from bags, belts, wallets, and much more. And the best part,
they're doing it right here in Kentucky. You can check
them out claytononcrum dot com. That's Crume dot com. Or
you can visit their flagship retail store in Louisville at
two sixteen South Shelby Street. That's in NW lou It's

(37:22):
Clayton and Krum. Quality leather goods, built to last.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
How old are you forty four?

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Okay, so we're basically the same age. When I was
a kid, the idea of being rich was being Donald Trump.
It later became Bill Gates and now it's probably Elon Musk.
But when I was a kid, if you were to
say to just pop culture, who's rich, you would have
said Donald Trump. And I do think for people of
a certain age that memory was there. I think that's
a lot of the thing that with when rappers like him.

(37:52):
They've been rapping about Donald Trump since the eighties or nineties.
He was what was rich to them, And.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
This is I think Democrats get wrong, which is like
we you know, you hear a lot of like billionaires
shouldn't exist, which you know, I totally understand what the
point everyone's making about taxation, right and like U income inequality,
but I think it's an aspirational message. Yeah, and Democrat
Republicans were good on that, Like if like a lot
of the kind of content that gets you pulled into

(38:19):
an algorithmic path that takes you to Republican stuff is
like uh, working out self help, yeah, crypto right, and
those are all things where people think like, this is
an opportunity to build a better life, even with this rigged,
broken system that I despise around me.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Yeah. So all right, so now we we we started
with the Epstein stuff, let's go to now it seems
to me Donald Trump, I mean, you do you think
there's eighty chance he tries to run again.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
I wouldn't put it past him. I mean, like he
would just be real old. That's the thing. It's got
to be getting up there.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
He's already really old.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
You know ankles the other day he's not looking great.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Do you get a sense though, like maybe I'm wrong
about this, but I know in Kentucky there are elected
right wing officials that I'm friends with, many of whom
are on television every day, and they will all privately
tell you that they wish he wasn't around. They all

(39:19):
sort of they all are exhausted by him because they
all have to do a song and dance for him basically. Now,
I think there's some people that's not true about, but
Kentucky has oddly got a lot of these renegades, bizarrely
with with Ram Paul and Tom's mass and etc. And
even Mitch now has oddly become one. Do you think
there's a lot of Republicans that will be glad to

(39:40):
see this era end or not?

Speaker 2 (39:43):
I think yes and no. I mean I think like
we're ever going back to like whatever the pre Trump
politics was. I think he's just kind of like completely
changed the DNA of the party. So I think there
are people that probably find him gross and distasteful and
like don't like to have to, you know, comment on
all his nonsense all the time. But also he is
led them to some pretty successful elections and they like that.

(40:04):
They like power. You know, even Mitch McConnell, like he's
not like he's not like shutting stuff down in the Senate,
right and using his power to thwart to want Trump.
Now he's getting his tax cut.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
Do most of these guy men and women in both
parties you mentioned liking power? How many of these people
is that the driving force?

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Like?

Speaker 1 (40:21):
How many of these people? How many people in the
Senate and House do you think their drive is power
slash notoriety versus ideology slash trying to change the world
in whatever way they think is best. What do you
think the percentage is?

Speaker 2 (40:36):
I mean, I think it's a combination for all of them. Like, look,
even I got to know Barack Obama really well, Like
I thought he genuinely wanted to do right by the world.
He thought he could make changes that would help people, right.
I think he had like truly good intentions. But you
don't run for president without a massive ego you literally
think you should be the leader of the three world
like that. There has to be some desire to like

(40:58):
be the one making the call to you know, have
that power or like be in control, right, And so
there's a lot of that. And like in our political system,
as you know better than I do, was set up
to make those kind of folks bump up against each other, yes,
and check each other, but.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
The system was not set up to only have two parties,
which I think is ultimately the problem, and that's almost
impossible to fix.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Right.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
You were in the news, you and your cohorts with
the man Hunter Biden, who had quite an interview in
the last week where he told people about crack and
he talked for three hours. But one of the things
he said is he got he was obviously very angry
at the people he felt like pushed his father out
of the election. And he mentioned George Clooney, and he

(41:44):
mentioned Nancy Pelosi, and he menationed Obama didn't mention Harris actually,
but he mentioned pretty much everyone else. And then he
mentioned you all in particular. When you heard about that,
What was your thought? And then what do you think
about Hunter Biden's point in general?

Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yeah, So, I mean I sort of saw the clips
of it that everybody else did, and then listened to
the whole like three hour interview that he did with
this guy Andrew Callahan for Channel five News. Look, what
was sort of weird and sad about it? For me?
There's a lot of things that are sad about it.
I mean, I remember I sat next to Hunter Biden
on a plane in two thousand and four, uh like

(42:22):
southwest flight, like back of the plane on my way
to the Democratic Convention where Barack Obama was speaking.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
Oh, because he was so nice to me.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
We talked the whole time. He never mentioned who he was.
He just sort of like asked me questions about politics, right,
And I was like that that was my impression of
him that had stayed with me for a long time,
which is like, I know about all the tawdry stuff.
I know a lot of people I'm sure you do too,
who have suffered with addiction, and I know what it
can do to you and I and I think the
attacks on Hunter Biden about his addiction challenges are disgusting

(42:53):
and we're cruel and that's like kind of should be
out of bounds. I do think that his the way
he used his name to make money was gross, right,
And like both those.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
Things can be true by the way, I mean, person
can be addicted and it be sad, and they also
can have used their name to sell art and to
get business things that they never would have gotten otherwise.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yes, And I think we should just be honest about
that that, Like, I'm not defending him being on the
board of Barisma. I don't think like he was doing
something on behalf of his father to get Joe Biden kickpacks, right,
Like there was never any there there that we've seen,
never any evidence. But I do think he clearly traded
off his name and in so doing made it very
difficult for the Democrats and his father in particular, to
make kind of an ethics message against Donald Trump, and

(43:39):
I did real damage to the campaign. It was very
weird to me though, like, look, there's a lot if
my dad had been president and got kind of pushed out,
I would be so super mad to But it is
quite telling that he's mad about like an opad in
the Times, in my dumb show and not addressing the
reality that most voters thought Joe Biden was too old

(44:01):
and if you want to call me a liberal elite
and say, you know, you live in a house in
la and you're out of touch, and like, sure, okay,
guilty is charged, But like that didn't change the fact
that like eighty percent of Democrats thought that he should
step aside. It was.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Like, I mean, the problem for me, it was just
the regular person I mean, my podcast producer here, Billy
sitting there. I remember one day him saying to me,
Joe Biden's too old, and Billy does not follow it
on a daily basis. And if Billy is saying he's
too old, there's a part of me that goes, this
is what the general public thinks. When did you get
the moment in your head that you said he needs

(44:36):
to drop out? And I need to take that position publicly.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
So this is the longer story of this is sort
of complicated, and get that, like why Hunter's anger is
so sort of like shocking, which is that, Look, we
all worked with Joe Biden right at the White House.
We had a lot of affection for him personally in
those days. When he decided to run in twenty twenty,
I frankly thought he was too old. Then oh really yeah,

(45:01):
well you got Then he got crushed in Iowa, he
got crushed in New Hampshire, and then he won in
South Carolina and won the nomination and won the presidency.
And obviously it was under weird circumstances with COVID and
it was kind of like a from the basement campaign,
but like he won, and so after that I was
kind of like, you know what, maybe I'm the dumbest
person in the world and I don't know about stuff
about politics, and you know, like sorry, and and you know,

(45:22):
so I should just keep my big dumb mouth shut.
And but like you could see him declining physically, and
then you know, the twenty twenty two midterms happened. I
think the Biden people decided that they were the reason
that Democrats did well and not because Republicans ran Bozo's
like herschel Walker and doctor Oz right, Like, I think
there's a lot of context missing.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Well, did me go back to say, you you were
around Joe Biden in two thousand and eight twenty twelve,
when he ran in twenty twenty, you thought he was diminished?
Then from when he was in the White House.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
I didn't think he was diminished. I just thought, like,
you know, we knew what his age was, and he
just was was cuist.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
But he was Like Oh, was there a time during
the presidency when you, because you'd been around him a lot,
started to think he seems diminished? Or did you not
think that?

Speaker 2 (46:09):
I never thought that because I left the White House
in twenty thirteen. Okay, you know, like he was like
if you look at videos of him from then versus
you know, no, but.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
I mean as when he was president this time, did
you start to think he was diminished?

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yeah? I started. Look, it became clear that he had
lost the ability to communicate.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Well, okay.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
The thing that's funny is like Joe Biden was always
sort of like known for making gaffes, right, Like that
was like his thing, and so when he would misspeak,
like my muscle memory was not that he had aged
into that problem. It was just like a Joe Biden problem.
It was a famous Joe Biden problem, even from like
an eighty eight campaign, right. But you know, then there
were the midterms. Then he did that State of the
Union where he was seen as very strong.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
People thought he was on coke.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yeah, right exactly, and that I guess my my view
on it was like, you know what, I have my
own personal feelings, but he has made a decision, and
so I'd rather him than the alternative. Yeah. Then the
debate happened and we were all watching the debate live
and Boston for a thing, and we recorded something right
after it, and all of a sudden in that moment
that like he should really think about getting out because
it was the worst debate performance in history, and I

(47:10):
think Hunter Biden can be mad about that. There's this
sort of sense of entitlement you hear from the Biden
family and his top staffers. They're like, how dare you
deny him the reelection? But it's like, no one has
owed the presidency, no one is he was a senator
or vice president, he was president. I'd say, it's like
he's a historic figure, and they're kind of inability to
understand that. And also the un the reception if he

(47:34):
had just walked away kind of under different circumstances versus
the outcome that we all saw would have just been
night and day.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Yeah. No, you're exactly right. I actually find myself feeling
sorry for him a little bit because I think he's
going History is going to look at him a certain way,
whereas if he had just not had pride and had
in January of twenty twenty four stepped aside, history would
looked at him a different way. And I think that's it.
You know, pride comes before the fall in some times

(48:06):
in some ways. All right, let's look forward here real quick,
and then I know you got other stuff to do.
Andy Basher, we mentioned governor here in Kentucky. I have
known Andy for many, many, many years, and I've seen
a vast improvement in my opinion. I used to say
he was vanilla ice cream without sprinkles, and now I

(48:26):
actually think, like, I'm sort of shocked how well he's
been doing. Does he have a chance to be the
next president or Democratic nominee?

Speaker 2 (48:36):
I mean, like he clearly you know, if you and
I were recruiting for Kentucky, he's like a resume guy, right,
Like he's got definitely you know, it's a it's a
hell of compelling resume on paper. I think what all
of these candidates need to do, though, is show that
they can get attention and keep it and excite people.
And like, I'm more like, I'm more in the camp

(48:56):
that he's a lot of an ill ice cream and
he seems like a great flavor, high quality ice cream,
well made from the best cows.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
You But can you win a primary? Is vanilla ice
win a primary? It's Joe Biden was vanilla ice cream
in some ways, and and he won. I just I
there's a part of me that says, Okay, there's one
of two ways to see what you think this is
my dumb analysis. If you agree there's one of two
ways the Democrats can should move forward. Pick vanilla ice cream,

(49:29):
but vanilla ice cream that everyone is okay with, and
Andy Basheer may be that. Or pick somebody that gets
the marching up and down the streets and the worst
thing to do is be in the middle, which is
what I think we are a lot. So either go
bland as bland can be and just have people go
I'm tired of the fighting. I pick Andy Basheer or

(49:51):
AOC right like, go out in the streets and let's
get everybody voting. Do you agree that those are the
two paths, and it's just which one do you do?

Speaker 2 (49:59):
I actually don't think there are two paths. I think
Democrats like to tell ourselves a story that we would
win every election if we just did a better job
turning people out. Okay, I don't think that's right. I
think you have to persuade people. You have to inspire
them and persuade them and convince them that we are
a better alternative than the Republican Party. And so that's

(50:21):
not kind of like, that's not stamping the bashir versus AOC.
I think like what I want to see. I want
to see a big, motley, ugly primary. I want to
see people shredding each other up and fighting and show
me what you got.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
Republic though they usually would, they usually throw it out
there and then you see who survives.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
We gotta do that again. It's been a while.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
When's the last time we did that? Bill Clinton?

Speaker 2 (50:43):
I mean, you know, two thousand and eight was a
pretty spicy primary, but it was.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Still well I guess it was one Edwards. Yeah, Edwards.
I forgot about Edwards. Okay, so you want that again?

Speaker 2 (50:53):
I think we got to do it.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
So who are we talking? We're talking Gavin Newso, Josh Shapiro,
Andy Basher, aoc, Pete Bootage. Would Harris run again? Who?

Speaker 2 (51:06):
God only knows. I don't know what she wants to do.
She hasn't been out there much, you know, She's there's
some talk about governor of California maybe running for president again.
Who knows?

Speaker 1 (51:15):
But do you But did I just mention most of
what you think would be the main candidates?

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah? And then there's there's got to be some kind
of you know, out of nowhere, like you know, who knows?
Bernie runs again?

Speaker 1 (51:25):
This could be there's more.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
Murnie, You've been Mark Cuban, you see Elizabeth Warrens, Like,
who knows? You know, I don't know the full list,
but I'm with you, Like, I think what Joe Biden
had that none of the people we just mentioned had
was a national profile after eight years of being a
very popular vice president to a very popular president. Right
like everyone knew his name. Uh.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
I'll make this the last question. I have taken this view,
and you tell me if I'm right or wrong. Maga
as a force probably always exists, but I've always kind
of thought Trump is the only one who can really
pull it off and get an elector win that when
other people try to be maga, they lose. Basically, the
more maga the candidate, the worse they do in swing states.

(52:07):
When they win, it's because they pick somebody that's not
very maga. And I don't know that maga as a
let's just piss liberals off and that's how we win.
As a winning strategy, I don't think it works besides Trump.
Do you agree or not?

Speaker 2 (52:24):
I do agree. I think like a lot of what
Trump's does is trolling and annoying people like me to
get his base fired up. But like he has a
genuine appeal and he's taken positions that were not the
Republican orthodoxy. Right, Remember some of those twenty fifteen debates,
he got up there and he was like, Jeb, your
brother is an idiot. The Iraq War was a disaster.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
Like what were we thinking well in taking up for
the working class? I mean, let's we the working class,
which is my bread and butter issue, the working class.
While I don't agree with tariffs, the idea behind it
is to help the working class. I don't think it works,
but I think that's the idea. He looked at workers
and said you matter, and no one had done that

(53:04):
in that way in a while, And I think that's effective.
And jd. Vance can't do that, Like he can say it,
but it doesn't come off the same.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
He's a goober, I think, Like, you know, I don't
God knows if Trump lets him.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
You know, he was on a version of this podcast
We Yeah, I mean Jad and I were friends at
one point. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
Remember the Chappelle show Mad Real World where it was
the guy's name Tyree would say, you sit when you
pee in this apartment. That's sort of how I imagine
him in the White House he's doing anyway. I'm with
you though, Like, look, Trump, Democrats need to just reckon
with the fact that people like Trump. They think he's funny,

(53:47):
they think he's charming, he tells crazy stories, it's interesting,
and he has positions they like, the populist positions. We
need to steal that back. Democratic Party needs to be
clear in what we stand for. We need to be
anti war, We need to be for the work people.
We need an ethics and lobbying reform proposal that includes
not letting Nancy Pelosi trade stocks while she's serving the

(54:08):
Speaker of the House or her husband. Right, Like, there's
all we got to clean up our own house. Democrats
have a lot of work to do. We've barely started.
But we need to fight in like try to you know,
tell those people we care about you, we will fight
for you, working for you or not in this for us.
We're not in this to die in office and make money.
And you know what I mean. And so you know,
I'm with you that, Like I don't think naga is

(54:30):
a thing you can just like hand off like it's
a baton at a relay race, right that you know
when others have tried it it has not gone well.
But Democrats like, we can't just count on that being that, we.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Gotta do it. I agree. I love the guy down
in Texas that was on Rogan.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
I've heard that interview.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
Yet, well, let me tell you what James Tellisco I
think he's a state legislaor let me just say quickly
why I'd love to say this to people in Washington.
Although he does it maybe better than I could. There
is a there are a lot of people in America,
especially in Middle America. This is Andy Basheer's group too,
who are religious, who love God, who believe in the

(55:09):
values of helping the poor, and who are not concerned
about social issues and believe God calls them to treat
people well. He articulated how that position is compatible with
Democrat philosophies better than anyone I've ever heard. I've tried
to articulate it for fifteen years, and I would love
to write that guy and just say you did in

(55:30):
two and a half hours something better than I've ever done.
And there's a lot of those people. I think when
you look and you say, why did Joe Biden do
better than Hillary Clinton? And why is Andy Basheer the
second most popular governor in America. It's those values in
Middle America and he has it. And I'm not saying
he should run for president, but I wish that people

(55:52):
would sit and listen to him the way he talks
about that God says to love your enemy, and all
of these things that if Democrats just embrace some of
them could go so far.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
In my opinion, I think that people across the political
spectrum right now are struggling to find meaning in life.
And whether that is you know, a lack of religion
in this country anymore, whether it's the Internet breaking all
of our brains, or just like a lack of purpose
in the work we're doing, there is that void in
the emptiness, you know.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
I like, these these things have made it hard. These
phones have made it feel like, what's life's purpose except
for me to look at this screen sometimes.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
And we're not connecting with anybody exactly doing this, And
so look, I like, I didn't grow up in a
very religious family, but like you know, when I lay
in bed at night and something horrible has happened in
our family, or you know, you need a you need
to I'm not like I'm not praying to some you know, secular,
but you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Like it can just be it's like for me and
maybe that that representative. It's based on religion, but it
can also just be a based on humanity, this belief
that we should help one another, that what is the
purpose of life except to help those less fortunate. That
used to be what I kind of thought of as
the core of democratic philosophy. We are here to help

(57:13):
those that are less fortunate and to rise everybody up.
And I think we need to reinject that.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Does that make agreement? Yes, Like that was the core
of Obama's message. It was, yeah, I am my brother's keeper,
like the ark of the moral universe bends towards justin
but only when we pull on it, right, Like I
absolutely those are big thematic things about bringing us together,
loving each other, Like you know, I think, I look,
I think that politics is a pendulum in this country

(57:39):
and it's constantly swinging back and forth. And someone is
gonna run hard against the tone of Donald Trump and
the divisiveness, and they're gonna have to find a non cheesy,
non boring way to do it. But I do think,
like appealing to the better angels of our nature, as
somebody famous once said, is going to be something that
resonates after like what ten years of the most divisive

(58:00):
political culture any of us can can recall Wat's that interview.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
I bet you'll lie. I mean, I don't know if
he's the person just because he's not dynamic, but his message,
in my opinion, could not be better. I want to
find a way to reach I'd love to have him
one here. It was brilliant, Tommy, Thank you very much,
pod Save America, and I do appreciate that you're going
out and like being heard on all these other platforms.

(58:25):
Keep it up, and you know it's a blast man.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
Look, look, we're both very lucky. We get to talk
to people for a living. I think that the more
that Democrats can talk about all the mistakes we made,
the more kind of like grace, you get to try
to conure people that you maybe have some good ideas.
So I'm falling on my sword left and right over here, buddy,
you know, to Hunter Biden, to you, to anyone listening.
But like I just hope folks give Democrats a look
because we're trying.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
Tommy v Tour thank you very much, Thanks Bett,