Episode 13 - Matt Norlander

Matt Norlander is a senior writer for CBS Sports, where he has been since 2010. He covers primarily college basketball and is the host of the Eye on College Basketball Podcast. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is interrupted by Matt Jones.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's episode thirteen of interrupted by Matt Jones, present by
Cornbread Hemp. This is the good life. We have done
the last couple weeks, probably more politics and current events
than some of you like. So I thought we'd do
some basketball because there's nobody who's riding on college basketball
I respect more than this fellas from cbssports dot com.

(00:30):
Matt Norlander, Matt and I I was just telling the
guys here a minute ago that you and I worked
together for a year in twenty eleven at CBS Sports
and you've been there ever since. Thank you very much
for your time.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
It's going to be with you.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
Yes, yes, indeed that first season I came on. We
don't need to totally walk down memory lane, but yes,
I was hired the first week of December of twenty
ten at CBS Sports, and you were I think you
would like freelance for CBS previous today that, but you
were number two after that, Eric Angevine and then Jeff Bordelle.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
I was just trying to remember who the other one was.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Eric's right Antivine who previously ran storming the floor any
hardcore college basketball does he do now?

Speaker 1 (01:14):
You know what, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
I haven't talked to Eric in a number of years,
but he, under good terms, just willingly opted.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
To move to a different life.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah business, Yeah, over a decade ago.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
But we were the original We were the original four,
and I've managed to somehow cling on here for well.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
I know how you've managed, which is that you do
an amazing job, and so I wanted to have you
on to talk a number of things. The most important
stuff is probably the most boring, so I'm gonna save it.
So let's start with the most fun, the most fun
things here in Kentucky. We had an amazing story last
year with John cal Perry taking the Arkansas job, Mark

(01:52):
Pope getting the Kentucky job. I think sometimes we are
so wrapped up in it here we don't necessarily get
the per Tell me when you first heard John Caliperry
is going to Arkansas? What did you think of that?

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Gosh?

Speaker 3 (02:06):
Okay, again, we don't have to totally relive this as well,
but this is one of the more I don't I
don't know if I technically broke the story, but I
felt like I was going to be the one that
broke the store when it happened because I got told
this is the Sunday before the title. Yes, that morning
I got a tip on it, and then or maybe

(02:26):
it was like late after, late morning, early afternoon. I
can't remember all the particulars in terms of when I
first learned, but I think someone in Arkansas said, hey,
I didn't know this in real time, but like the
day after everything was starting to settle because I was
working under the guys that I.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Was going to break this story, going to break the story.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
I think someone in Arkansas said, hey, I'm hearing cow
might be actually involved in Arkansas.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Anyway.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
I remember being I remember that story. That's such a
gargantuan story and such a significant tip, thinking like, nah,
I just I'll sniff this out, but I have my
real doubts about the timing of it.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
It's the same league.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
It would he actually really go through with this everything
that he had talked about with Barnhart previously and all that,
and then lo and behold it was true.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
I remember going.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
I actually had like a CBS team dinner and I
confirmed it with one more a third source go right
before we left for dinner in Arizona. I didn't know
that Cal was in Arizona. He he was there, Yeah, no,
he was still there at that point and this was later,

(03:36):
so this was yeah. So anyway, I was like, okay,
here goes, nothing's put it out.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
I never sat down at the dinner table like.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
For a second, Matt, because a lot of people wouldn't
know this. I mean, when you get a scoop of
whatever it is, let's say it's that or whatever it is,
how much verification do you feel like you have to
have to go? I mean, and you always hear this,
you got to have two sources. But like today's social
media world, things move so quick. How do you feel
like how much proof do you feel like you need

(04:08):
to have to go with it?

Speaker 1 (04:09):
A lot?

Speaker 3 (04:10):
I actually feel like I hold myself to an extremely
rigorous standard and that winds up which sometimes yeah, I
just I sometimes like I will have stuff for any
number of time, could be hours, could be days, and
it might be single sourced, and I just won't go
with it and someone else will go with it. Just
I don't want to be wrong, you know, And.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Have you ever been wrong? I don't remember you being wrong.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
I'm there might honestly, like there's probably been a couple
of times where I've reported something and it's been ninety
percent right, but there might be a little bit of
the framing that is that winds up not being the way.
But you want to be careful like when you report
these things and framing, and obviously, when like a high
profile coach is considering changing jobs, you know you also
have to allow for it shy of literally the coach

(04:55):
in question, the agent, or the athletic director. Those are
like the three people and then rare cases and this
is usually is not the case for me, the president
of a university, Like those are the four people that
you would need to rely on to essentially not be wrong.
Like even secondary list isn't what happened with the Cali
Perry situation, obviously, But even in a situation where a
coach might change a job and his most trusted assistant

(05:18):
or someone that's extremely close to them tells you like
this is where it's going to go, the human being
involved still has the capacity to say no. I remember
I had the Jay Wright retirement four hours walking around
my house telling my wife this is going to happen.
But Jay Wright technically has the he has the capacity
at the very last moment before because his team didn't
know to tell his team. You know what, until ten

(05:38):
minutes ago, I was thinking about this, I'm going to retire.
But now that I'm in this room, like you have
to allow for the possibility that these things might go
a different way. So anyway, I try and hold it
to a pretty rigorous standard. I think when the calib
Perry stuff broken, man, that is one of the more true,
like from a reporting standpoint, truly surreal. I think we
went live with a podcast reaction on the Arizona time,

(06:01):
like at twelve thirty at night, just completely completely wild.
I think my framing was John Cali Perry has entered
into serious discussions about leaving Kentucky for the Arkansas job.
And that was also not to totally relive all of
this stuff, but I remember a very interesting hiccup with
a lot of that was it was in Cow's contract
he could not engage, yeah with another school about a job,

(06:27):
you know, and as far as I can tell, he
technically broke the terms of that contract.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Now, whether privately.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
No, no, he did break it. And I think it
was I think it was probably it was that was
probably well, you know, from my perspective, and I think
he then had some second thoughts, and I think the
fact that he broke it gave Kentucky some leverage that
the result that was probably best for anybody ended up
happening because of that. I mean, I think that this

(06:53):
is one of those circumstances where I think everybody won.
I think Arkansas won, I think col won. I think
Kentucky won in the sense that it was probably time
for it to go. I know you're not here on
a day to day basis, but did you kind of
feel like, as you've been around you know a lot
of people at Kentucky, I mean, did you kind of
feel like, look, this probably better for everybody if everybody
just kind of goes in a different direction.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
I remember when they lost to Oakland, tweeting like there's
a real chance John Caliperry just coaches last time American
Entucky because in the immediate said that it was like, Okay,
we cannot do again. I live in Connecticut. I'm very
familiar with Kentucky. Actually, the ninety six Kentucky teams my
favorite team ever. I as a teenager, Kentucky was the
team I was most drawn to. You. I could legitimately

(07:33):
say that I was a fan of Kentucky as I
grew up in Vermont, just because I love the way
Patino's teams played, like Tony Delk was my favorite college
player of the nineties and all that stuff. So I
have a you know, I lived in Louisville when I
was much younger, and never lived in Lexington, but have
a general idea of some of it as much as
you can when you're not actually on the ground there
and living at day to day. And I remember when

(07:54):
the Oaklan loss happening and just scanning, you know, scanning
all this stuff as a part of the gig, being
like they can't keep doing this, like this has this
has to be a reason for change, and then nothing happens.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
They do that awkward television.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, which.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
Either uncountered to some of the stuff that I was
being told, I can't whatever, we can keep it moving
here in a second. But but then you get to
the point where you know, it's like, all right, Cali Perry, Arkansas,
I'm told this is going to happen, and and then
it winds up happening and just yeah, just crazy crazy.
There's only one of the coaching at least in the past,

(08:32):
like fifteen years. Only one other coaching thing that's happened
surrounding the Final Four that seemed to like, for at
least a little bit like take away from the spotlight.
That's when Roy Williams retired on April first in the
Bubble Tournament. And that was a situation where a lot
of people in the industry just had to be like, Hey,
is this in April fool's joke? Is he actually retiring
Roy Williams? Like he just they I think they lost
in the first round of that tournament, Like he's going

(08:53):
to end his career like not even with the win
in his final year in the tournament. And it was true,
but that was the Monday the tournament maybe, I think,
and that Bubble Tournament. And then Cali Perry is just
a man on man. I just did a story at
cbsports dot com.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Hey, I want to talk about you did the biggest moments,
right and.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
The biggest stories not the biggest moments, and those are
two different things. But yeah, I did the biggest stories
in men's college basketball specifically over the past twenty five years,
and Cal going to Arkansas just missed the cut. And
when I say just missed the cut. It was among
the three or four biggest cuts because, in my opinion,
and you would, frankly, this is when I really came

(09:29):
to understand the your presence in Kentucky. Cal leaving Memphis
for Kentucky was a bigger deal, was it? Bigger story?
Had more profound impacts on the sport? So that story
is in the top twenty five. Cal to Arkansas also
an earthquake, but I didn't want to have two Cali
Perry movement stories in the rankings as well, but the
Kentucky one In two thousand and nine, as I wrote

(09:51):
and we podcasted for Ion College Basketball on CBS, it
was the first on the basketball side, at least cal
leaving Memphis for Kentucky and the door and the live
stream and everyone waiting for Cal to walk out of
that building and Alan Cutler chasing Billy Gillespie through the
halls of Kentucky's facility everything there. It was the first
college basketball coaching change in the Twitter era where it
was dominated. I mean, you had a days long process

(10:15):
where it was like Gillespie's gonna be out, Who's going
to be the guy?

Speaker 1 (10:17):
It's got to be Cal.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
When are we gonna get the word and everything that
came after that, the good, bad, all of it tied
to cal recruiting one and done duke everything. That's why
that one clearly to me registered as among the ten
or twelve biggest stories of the past twenty five years.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, I loved your list. By the way, the only
thing I didn't, did you? You didn't have the Louisville scandal, right?
Was that? The only No?

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Okay, I didn't.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
But and someone's actually mentioned this to me, I didn't
have the Louisville scandal only because I put Patino. There's
been so many things right I didn't have. I did
not have the Katrina Powell. I did strongly debated, I
really really did. It was hard, dude. There were like
forty five stories for I did a top twenty five

(10:58):
and one in the caste. Yeah, that we do, like
Gary Parris is the top twenty five and one rankings.
So it was hard to get this list down. And
then I included when the FBI scandal hit, Patino lost
his job and it was like the last scandal that
led to him losing his job in Louisville getting the
national championship stripped, And to me, that was the bigger
Louisville story than the scandal. But you're right, I do

(11:19):
not disagree with the fact that they're really like Louisville scandals.
Involved in that were probably like thirty candidates for twenty
six spots. But I had to have like a shocking retirement,
so like Jay Wright retiring.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
Emblematic a shocking. Yeah, I had to have like I.

Speaker 3 (11:33):
Know this has forgotten a little bit, but Miami in
Virginia Tech, and Boston College leaving the Big East in
the early two thousands, which set up that was the
first domino. I have other conference relying on stuff in there,
but that was an extremely, extremely big deal. It basically
allowed the Big East to become a sixteen team basketball
conference and set the template.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Sorry, that's like a huge, huge story.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
So anyway, not to totally defend my list, but it
was tough to know.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
Your list is great. Your list is great. I mean,
you got the one that was number one with all
the inn io and the changes there. So let's let's
talk just a second. I mean, college basketball as a
sport is a completely different sport than it was three
years ago, five years ago, and there's a good chance
three years from now it will be a different sport
than it is now. It is hard to on a

(12:19):
day to day basis keep track with what it's going
to be. I did on my show today this whole
legal thing about you know, what's it going to take
from a legal perspective? To me, the only thing, and
you tell me if you disagree with this, the only
thing that's really going to lead to guardrails in any
of this is if Congress passes a bill that essentially
sets that law about college athletics separate from the regular law,

(12:43):
and the President signs I think absent that it's still
going to be chaos for the next few years.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
Do you agree with that I do?

Speaker 3 (12:52):
This is such a okay, this is such an unwieldy
topic and uh full transparency, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
I don't know how long from us taping.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
This is a life today, So you don't have to
worry about change your.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
Lot so earlier this week on Monday, Okay, okay, let's
just rewind some of this here. I was on the
road earlier in July, and I went to a couple
of different recruiting events with the DTAs and Nike, and
I talked to a variety of different coaches. Okay, and
this comes after the house case settlement is decided, and
then just as pure coincidence, when I was on the
road the College Sports Commission.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
I promise, I'm gonn answer this, but I just want
to quick set up here.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
It puts out the guidance that says, hey, listen, collective
essentially they're not going to be allowable anymore, and you
know you're going to have to really clear a high
bar for a valid business purpose for any player to
get money through a collective, through nil and endorsements and
all that. Well, I'm on the road talking to coaches
as this stuff comes out, so naturally it's easy fodder
for conversation and speculation and just bitch sessions, if you will.

(13:45):
So I write a story about all of the uncertainty
that comes with all that, because you've got the revenue
sharing in the caps in different schools, and we can
get into all of that as well if you want.
But what was so interesting to me because I expected
it maybe from one or two coaches, but this came
up with I don't know, nearly a dozen coaches at
some point in our conversations. They would just arrive at

(14:07):
the conclusion of just got to make these guys employees, man, Like,
can we just do this already? Like that is what
gets us there. And I do think, unfortunately, this is
going to take a long time. Like I think this
is I would love to be wrong, but I'm sorry.
I've been following this story literally since two thousand and
nine in terms of the slow death of amateurism.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
And amateurism is dead.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
But you have to be able to have football players
and basketball players unionized, collectively bargained, and within that then
comes the constraints that all other professional leagues have, like
in so many ways, not entirely, but in so many ways.
You can see how college athletics is a professional enterprise
and we're just not.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
We're not there.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
It's going to take it's going to take more fighting,
more lawsuits, more struggle. I don't think the executive order
issued by.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
I do think there's a second way, though. The employee
thing to me is how it should be. Yeah, but
but but Congress, I do think legally could make a
law that says all these anti trust laws and all
the laws that we have that were violated when it
was essentially amateurism. I mean Congress could have a law

(15:15):
that says none of that applies to college sports. They
can do that.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
They could, But Matt, as you know, it's actually become
even I would say in the past year. If we
go back two three years ago, when this was a topic,
it seemed as though you know, and I always still
figuring yourself out, and it seemed like there was a
real opportunity in that time, even though it's hard to
get this stuff through, where Republicans and Democrats had a

(15:40):
lot of common ground rise in terms of empowering players.
And now it's got to be it's frustrating for you,
frustrating for me, and it's got to be so frustrating
for the folks who follow college sports, follow your podcast,
follow your radio show. It is just agonizing to see
that now we have we have reached a point where
this issue now is all to become something of a

(16:01):
partisan Is some common I want to be clear, there
is definitely some common ground about what college players should
be empowered and able to earn, But now it is
it is becoming this thing where you've got the Democratic
side that is really looking for all out empowerment and
I don't even necessarily disagree with that whatsoever. And then
you've got the Republican side that is looking to put

(16:21):
certain barriers and guardrails around it and trying to push
through some anti trust exemptions for the n c double
A that still would frankly allow the powers that be
with the NCAA to put restraints on college athletes that would.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Deserve. So we can do it, Matt, it can do it.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
But this current one to Score Act, I've heard.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
From plenty of people like it's going to die. It's
not going to get through.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
It's the most ambitious one yet, it's the closest one
that conceivably could happen to anti trust status, and it's
still not going to get it.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
It's not going to happen. I mean, there's a there's
a congressman here in Kentucky named Morgan McGarvey who works
on it on the House side for the Democrats, and
he and I have had a lot of conversations. He
wrote the bill that was the Kentucky State Bill, which
is one of the very first bills that came out
with this. It's not going to happen until. I mean,
they got to get sixty votes in the Senate, which
means you've got to have Democrats on board. I think

(17:15):
when I think the Trump Executive Order makes it worse
because you know, now anytime Trump's involved, the Democrats don't
want to give him a win and he wants to
take credit, and I actually just think that makes it harder.
I did like, though, I will say one thing about
his executive order, when there was some stuff in there
that I do think Democrats would agree with, like we

(17:36):
got to protect women's sports, we got to have sixteen sports.
If you make this like, there was some positives, but
I'm with you. I don't think it's going to happen.
Coaches are frustrated. But are we done with the era
where coaches say I'm retiring because I don't want to
do this anymore. Did we finally get rid of all
those people or are there some still around?

Speaker 3 (17:55):
No, we did not go rid of all those people.
Now depends on how you want to frame it and
respond to that. I will say that I talked to
I'm not going to give the coaches away. Obviously talked
to two Power Conference coaches, one on the road and
one was just on the phone.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Early.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
I want to say this was maybe June, maybe May
and they just you know, just talking casually and off
the record, saying yeah, like check back with me in March,
because this really might be it. But you've got other coaches, like,
you know, one who is not there is Tom Izzo,
who is as fervent or not spoken about a lot
of this stuff. And at the same time, also you know,

(18:33):
I caught up with Tom on the road and you
know some of the some of the fights that he
was putting up in really good faith, by the way,
for you know, seven eight years. He now is realized,
like there are certain things that people will seek his
opinion out on, and there's other stuff where he's like,
I'm just.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
I can't do this anymore.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
Like I can't I can't be saying the same stuff
on these committee calls and on these zooms, so you know,
week after week, month after month, like I just I'm
gonna have to let it go. With that being said, no,
I still think that you will have a real there's
a real chance that some coaches could retire next season
or the year after. In site where we're at, I

(19:09):
don't think we're fully out of it there, but I
don't think like a couple of guys that I don't
think are in that route like I think is oh,
two three, four, four years and when he when he goes,
it'll be affected by some of this, but he's also
going to have naturally aged out of it. But I
don't think he's coming. I don't think he's coming soon.
Guys like Rick Barnes wait and see. Although Rick Barnes
says not close. I asked Dana Altman says he's not

(19:30):
close all than LFO. He also hinted like it's kind
of my wife's call, and that.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
To me is they want to go go. I mean
like it's it's it's it's like the drama of the
some of those guys drives me crazy. I mean, Patino's
nine hundred years old and he's making it work. So
let me ask you very much, very much.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
The case with Patina Marku is when I would keep
an eye on mark Few, I could see coaching for
ten more years, or if you told me he retired
the day after next season, I would believe either one
of those.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
Of the way he's wired, that's all you know.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
Clayton and Creum was founded on a simple idea all
leather goods should last a lifetime. They make everything from bags, belts, wallets,
and much more. And the best part, they're doing it
right here in Kentucky. You can check them out Claytononcreme
dot com. That's Crume dot com. Or you can visit
their flagship retail store in Louisville at two sixteen South
Shelby Street. That's in New lou It's Clayton and Kreme

(20:24):
quality leather goods built to last. Let me let me
ask you, if you were to say, whatever the rules
end up being in the next year or two, what
programs in the Nile era, give me three or four
programs you think are set up to really utilize these
rules to their advantage. And maybe three or four programs

(20:44):
that have been good that you think these rules have
a chance to hurt going forward.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
Okay, schools that are set up inherently to do well. Duke,
I'm just gonna I'm not going to give you everyone.
There's just a few that are off the top of
my head, Duke con Kentucky. M Saint John's let me
give you a Let me give you an even five here,
I love this m And then the fifth one that

(21:14):
I think is set up to do well, but we'll
be fascinating is Marquette only because Marquette doesn't have football.
It's in the biggiest that's plenty of money, but Shaka
Smart just isn't going into the portal to add players.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
So it's actually kind of wild how.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Marquette's like a different deal from everyone else, because I
don't think there's a program that has access to more
REVS share money but isn't utilizing it to maximum ends
than Marquette.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
So they're fascinating to me. Schools that are.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Let me, let me use those five before you go
to the others. All right, So Kentucky and Duke historically
great programs, huge fan base, is Nike donors national programs
makes sense to me, Yukon, Saint John's, Marquette in conferences
without football, they can put a lot of REV share
they don't have to share with football. That strikes me
as the reason those three five programs are on the list.
Am I right?

Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (21:58):
Largely speaking, like Ekon is most of its collective, Like
I don't know if Yukon can hit twenty point five.
It's brought most of his collectives in house, and Yukon
now has as I understand it just a lot of
money and rightfully so. I mean men's and women's basketball there,
and it does have a football program, but and you
know there will be roughs share money that goes to
the football program. But the Yukon's football program is you know,
it's it's kind of on on island to a certain

(22:19):
extent there.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
Saint John's just doesn't have to deal with that. You've
got Rick Patino.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
I remember one source at Saint John's telling me like
this is tongue in cheek, but it's like we should
be the evil Empire, Like, yeah, they should have are
in New York City, like this should be what we are.
And that's going to be reflected in the rankings in
the preseason. I would estimate Saint John's probably spent there
had to be a top five to seven spender in
the in the portal this past offseason. Wouldn't surprise me whatsoever.
And yeah, so they are not restricted by football. Before

(22:46):
we get to the programs, well, I guess I can help.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Let me ask you on the ones that have spent
the most money this year. Yes, off the top of
my head, Kentucky, Saint John's, per Michigan, those were be three.
What else is on that list?

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Absolutely for sure, Texas Tech is is up there, BYU
is up there as well. Again, just a reminder to
listeners and viewers. This is because the house case settlement
didn't go into effect until the summer. So all of
these schools in this past portalcycle they front loaded this.
They got all this donor money and so that's why
they were able in some cases to just cruise and
I mean cruise north of ten million and completely blow

(23:20):
away what the market was the year before, let alone
the year before that.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
So they were up there.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
Indiana was considered pretty high up there, and there's some
others as well.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Actually wrote a big story on that package.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, I saw that the badge which stirred up a
little bit, just because some coaches don't care and other
coaches don't want it like out there how much they
happen because they don't they worry about like the eighth, ninth,
or tenth guy on the roster being like, wait a second,
we have how much I understand that.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Could be a thing.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
So it is what it is a schools that aren't
feel like they could be affected by this. I do
think it's schools like in the SEC and the Big Ten.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Potentially, I want to I want to stress this.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
This is just potentially we'll see like now that some
of the stakes of these things have changed and the
College Sports Commission is eased its guidance on collectives, Like,
how far does that guidance go. I've heard from a
few people in the industry in the past forty eight
hours about this, and some think it's just yeah, this
is going to go back to what it was, and
then it's the REV share cap and others think they
said this, but let's actually wait and see. Let's look

(24:15):
over the next four or five months, and let's just
see if we have a couple of high profile stories
where players might try and get deals and they actually
still do get shut down because they're trying to get
five hundred thousand through a collective. So there is some
some practicality there. But I'm wondering about schools like Auburn, Alabama,
who else in the SEC are Like I was told,

(24:35):
Arkansas from a rev share standpoint, is not like Kentucky
is the exception. I thought that Arkansas could be near
that I know we have actually had. We'll give a
little more meat to your view now.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
I want to get to that in a minute. The
Kentucky We'll get to that. We'll get to that.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
I have a little bit more in that, but like
some schools in the SEC that could be affected by it.
And I also think the Big Ten is another league
where like football dominated, it's football dominated.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
So the schools that have.

Speaker 3 (25:02):
Had some benefits here recently that I wonder about. Iso
even told me his REP share for this year was
three and a half. He hopes that to be higher.
I wonder on Maryland producing some nigos spot UCLA. I'm
curious on Illinois has definitely had a lot of money,
more than ten million to play with. What will they
be over the next two or three years. They might

(25:23):
continue to still being a good spot there. And then
it's the other schools that aren't typically like you wouldn't
think to be high earners, but like a Kansas State
had a ton of money last cycle, they weren't good.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
They didn't make the tournament.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
You had a few of those instances were schools that
brought in a lot of money didn't wind up paying off.
And North Carolina is another one to look.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
So I want to talk about North Carolina for a second,
because North Carolina is the blue blood now that is
feeling less and less like a blue blood every day,
and I don't It seems to me the easiest selling
sports should be North Carolina. Awesome school, Michael Jordan, huge base.
What are they not set up for the future, and

(26:03):
why does it feel like they are becoming mediocre? They're
becoming Indiana before our eyes.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Man.

Speaker 3 (26:12):
I was sitting with a coach at the Nike event
and I was just saying, you know, listen, man, I've
never coached in college basketball, but if you told me
that I could have any job in.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
The sport, I would pick North Carolina.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
I don't discs.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
You don't have the you have a fan base that
is super smart, really invested. But as you and I
both know, like Kentucky is on a different level of
passion and intensity, and North Carolina's at the School of Jordan.
You're involved in the greatest rival where you've got all
this history, more final fours than any school ever. Like
to me, it's just as good of a job out there.
It's you know, I took it. I put it one

(26:46):
notch above your Kentucky Duke Kansas go on down the list, there,
but it's a very interesting time. So I I hear
what you're saying about the Indiana stuff. I think that's
too harsh.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
Okay, well it's odious because they went to the finals
just a couple of years ago.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
So they did go to the finals a couple of
years ago.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
They were a one seed, but they didn't make it
to the final four, but they were a one seed.
Hubert Davis is entering next season on the hot seat.
I wrote about North Carolina and just in general big
picture with North Carolina in December, after Belichick was hired,
they lost on Aja Debansa because they lost out on
the bidding war there. Debansa is going to play at BYU.

(27:22):
But North Carolina's super fast, fascinating for this angle Matt
this upcoming season. So they the donors, some of the donors,
some of the most important donors around North Carolina. It's
not that they turned their back on the basketball program,
but they were giving more attention and money to football
than ever before. And this was reinforceding me by a
couple of people in that around Chapel Hill with North Carolina,

(27:47):
Like even though Bill Belichick is now there, and yes,
we saw the photos from media Day earlier this week
where he just you know, it's what you would expect,
just an army of cameras and reporters right for the
people that support the University of North Carolina.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
Again, this is not my opinion.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
This is the opinion shared by people both at the
university and.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Support the school.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Like the football program doesn't even come close to touching
the basketball program. I guess you would to understand the parallel.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
So it's Kentucky. I mean Caliperry. Cali Perry had an
issue and I wonder if other schools have this where
I think he was happy football was good, But once
money starts coming into it, then these coaches are competing
for donor money. And I do wonder at a place
like North Carolina when you bring in a Belichick, like,

(28:30):
there's gotta be some resentment from the football and basketball.
It certainly happened at Kentucky and the cow years.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
That was quite obvious. There was definitely some consternation and unease.
So's what's interesting about North Carolina is you say, like, Okay,
they feel like they're a blue blood that's really fading
and struggling on some level. That's true but what is
undeniable is that somehow, some way, that university and that
athletic department. On the football side, we're talking north of
forty maybe fifty million dollars invested when you include contracts

(28:58):
and player and all that stuff, and then the basket
ball program was able to jump more north of ten
million after I believe last season. Last season, I believe
it was under four and now was above ten for
this upcoming season.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
So they have invested.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
They have basically they have given Hubert Davis, who now
has a general manager, and then basically like a mini
fra An office, a staff of three or four people
that are that are tasked with building out a roster.
I actually think it might be too many cooks in
the kitchen situation. But Hubert Davis is unquestionably going into
a hot seat season needs to make the tournament with
ease to keep his job. There was a lot of,

(29:30):
you know, talk last season about how he should have
been fired period. But I think when you look at
you and see even though it has been up and
down a little bit of this, I think on balance overall,
you can't fire Hubert Davis just yet. There is the
other case though, that my coast. Gary Parris said it
on our podcast. He said, if you're at North Carolina
and you look at what's happened so far and you

(29:52):
look forward to the next five years, do you have
the right coach? And if you want to say the
answer is no, then they can do it, then go
find the coach. I don't go through this for another year.
But that's not that's not what happened. They're going to
go through it for another year. And the athletics department
there has all of this money invested into football and
men's basketball. If you combined it all and you got

(30:13):
the true number and you told me it was north
of sixty five million, I would completely believe that number.
And there is no guarantee that either coach Belichick or
Hubert Davis will be the head coach at either of
those programs one year from where we speak today, Huge,
huge stuff upcoming for you. And see, by the way,
I know there was a I'm not super dialed in
on the timeline with all this stuff, but I know
like there's something got aggregated about UNC looking to join

(30:36):
the SEC or looking into it. That's a non story.
I did report on this as well in December. This
is one of many different aspects, but hiring Belichick for
some donors at North Carolina comes with the idea of, hey,
if we get Belichick, we've become relevant, we're good in
the ACC, and we up our value over the next
three four years. Then maybe when it gets time to
redo a lot of these media deals and at the
end of the decade, maybe we actually will have the

(30:57):
validation if we want to explore to get into the SEC.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
That's a big bargaining chip for us.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
So there is truth to that, but there's no not
even remotely anything close to a mediate on it, let
alone the SEC having genuine interest. So I know that
kind of got some run this week, but I wanted
to add at least a little bit.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
That's good to know. That's good to know. I'm a
big advocate of having North kroline the SEC. But now
I don't have to get my hopes up. Life moves fast,
but every now and then you got to slow down
and savor the goodness of it. That's where cornbread hemp
comes in. Cornbread Hemp makes hemp wellness products that help
folks like you relax, recharge, and feel like your best self. Naturally.

(31:31):
Whether you're calming a busy mind, soothing sore muscles, or
swapping out your evening drink, corn Bread's got something that
fits your version of the good life, and their new
line of infused Seltzers are perfect for summertime. They're crisp, refreshing,
and delicious with a five milligram infusion for a gentle
buzz without the booze. Or you can try their best
selling gummies, oils and topicals for daily relief and better sleep.

(31:53):
Head to Cornbread dot com slash Matt Jones again, the
code is Matt Jones. Thirty percent off your first order
cornbreadhamp dot com slash Matt Jones. The code is Matt Jones, Cornbread, Hemp.
This is the good life. Let me ask you a
big picture college basketball question. One thing you and I
share is we both love college basketball. I mean, I

(32:16):
have a real affinity for people for whom college basketball
is their favorite thing, because it's been that way my
entire life. I take a general view that yes, it's chaotic,
yes these raw, Yes it feels sometimes like the trains
off the tracks, but that in general, college basketball is
in a much better place today than it was five

(32:36):
years ago, eight years ago that with people staying in
school longer, the quality of play is better. I think
the interest is a little higher, and I actually think
college basketball INIL has oddly been helpful maybe in a
way it hasn't for college football. I actually think college
basketball is in a decent spot right now. Do you

(32:58):
agree with that?

Speaker 1 (32:59):
I do agree. Now.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
I will preface this by saying, I'm also someone who,
just as a function of loving the sport, like really
just try and have my coverage of it reflect the
genuine enthusiasm that I have for it, while also giving
plenty of room for criticism and skepticism where that word
it does apply. If we had this conversation in twenty eighteen,

(33:21):
I would acknowledged that there were some issues, but I
still love the sport.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
But I do think that what you just said is accurate.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
In twenty twenty five, the sport of college basketball is
better than it was, say in twenty seventeen. This upcoming season,
we will have and we're coming up We're like we're
coming off of just having had Cooper flag. I actually
think the one and done conversation that has existed for
almost twenty years at this point has been long misguided.
You would rather have one year of the superstars and

(33:46):
not have them at all. The era of three or
four year players, while it does happen every so often,
you'll get a four like we're going to have it
this year. Braden Smith is a recognizable four year player.
He's going to be a preseason first team All American
and he's coming back to college basketball. You still have that,
but you'd rather have one year of Coop Flag, one
year as Ion Williamson, go on, go on down the
list with all those players, but you are having more
players stay, so you'll have Braden Smith back.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
J T.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
Toppin got more than four million in an IL to return.
He didn't even he would have probably been a first
round pick, didn't even entertain it to return and be
arguably the preseason player of the year. He's a recognizable player,
obviously Braden Smith. I mentioned him. Other All Americans that
will return this year. I'm trying to see who else
might be.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
PJ.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
Haggerty was All American last season. He's not a different team,
but he's coming back.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
But there's even value in an Otaga away coming back
to Conducty like it gives something for fans. What I
like about the system now is there's a good contrast.
You had the Duke one and Dun's playing against a
Houston team with a lot of people that have been there,
and that contrast just sets up for good docotomy in
a game. And I think fans like that.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
I agree with you, So I'm gonna pull right now.
Let me pull right. I don't do every October. I
ranked the top one hundred and one teams allegedly purportedly
for the upcoming season and men's college basketball, but I don't.
I'd really start digging in on that in September, and
then we always publish it every October. I say that
to say my buddy Gary Parrish. He does every time
there's a significant transaction on the portal wire, he updates

(35:12):
his his off season top twenty five and one ranking.
So I'm just going to really quickly read you, and
these were the last update was in June, so there
hasn't obviously been roster movement since then, but real quick,
the top ten according to him, heading into next season.
Just to bolster your point, Matt, and and what we've
got here now he's got Saint John's at number one,
which I appreciate because Sat John's probably won't be the
number one preseason team, but it's going to be a
preseason top five team.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
That's a lock.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
You've got Rick Patino, He's as recognizable as any person
in college basketball period, and Saint John's and the revitalization
of that program based in that's awesome. That's great for
college basketball. You got Houston number two. Houston has been
the number Some people may not realize this. The University
of Houston under Kelvin Sampson the past four years has
finished number two at Ken Palm and has essentially been

(35:54):
a top three program over the past half decade in
college basketball.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
We saw what happened in.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
That it's coming off a brutal National Championship game loss.
It will still be awesome yet again, will probably be
the preseason number one team in the eight people.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
That's number two. He's got BYU. Number three.

Speaker 3 (36:07):
AJ Debansa might be the number one pick the next
year's draft at worst, unless you know, knock on wood,
barring injury, like he has really no excuse not to
fall below like number three or number four.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
It's different.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
Variety is good, b Yu, that's gonna that's going to
be a point of intrigue for a lot of fans
that may not be dialed in in the summer. And
then you get to October November a gearing up for
college hoops. What the heck's b YU doing here?

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Yeah? And the money they're spending, it'll be interesting.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Huge money, right, the huge money there.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
Purdue is number four, they've you know, that's a massive,
massive fan base in the Big Ten. We saw they
almost won a championship. You got yukon number five. Dan
Hurley face of the sport. I've maintained you can love him,
you can hate him whatever. Having Dan Hurley in college
basketball as kind of positives in the sport. I will
not hear arguments otherwise you can. You can hate what
he does or how he reacts on the sideline. It

(36:52):
is way better for college basketball to have a Dan
Hurley than you know what, I.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
Call him, Matt. It's the same thing in some ways
Cal was in his prime at Kentucky. He's a PTI coach,
meaning he will give them things that PTI will talk
about in their first segment, and college basketball needs people
like that, and we don't have a lot. He's one
of those.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
Correct unquestionably Number six is Florida, just as an example
of Florida coming off a national championship, reloaded in the SEC,
going to be a preseason top ten team. Unquestionably Todd Golden,
not necessarily a PTI coach, but but a smart young
coach and got you've got a national champion coming back
in this era of high transactions. And yet the Gators,
I think unquestionably deserve preseason top ten status. Texas Tech

(37:32):
is number seven. A ton of money there. JT top
and preseason All American. Michigan number eight. Anytime Michigan is
involved in any preseason poll in any sport, that's a
big time thing. Dusty May made the final four, considered
one of the you know he's too far now to
be an up and comer, but you know what I'm
saying with that very recognizable Duke is nine. Sorry, Kentucky
is not in the preseason top ten.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
By the how is Kentucky not in the top ten?

Speaker 3 (37:52):
You guy say, I'll get that second. Oh, he's got
Duke number nine. Obviously, Duke is Duke Keeth Gillen. They'll
have cam Boozer Duke. That's a good thing. And then Ucla.
He's got number ten. I might quibble with UCLA being
number ten, but Ucla also kind of clinging onto some
blue blood status. Preseason top ten, Mick Cronin was good
for seven viral moments at the microphone last year. He's
got Arizona eleven in Kentucky twelve. So even that, Like

(38:14):
if you expand out the top ten and you go
to the top twelve, Arizona, big time hoop school, Tommy
Lloyd's super smart, They've got some good dudes, and then
he's got He's got Kentucky twelve. I swear I'm not
saying this because I'm on the show with you, and
I haven't again, I haven't really thought about it too
deeply yet. I think on instinct, if you tell me quaintance,
they'll be okay with you.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
Bring back Oway.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
I do like Jasper Johnson Marino and Malachi Marino as
J Lowe is the key, Harrison takes a jump.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
Lold's a king. I know you all don't. I know
a lot of you guys don't like low but he's
the key.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
He is the key, and I just gotta see what
he's gonna be.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
I think I would I think I would slot Kentucky
nine or ten when we get to in October. Don't
hold me to that, but I think I think the
worst case again, what a team is what you think
there'll be in October versus what they are in February,
that's gonna be very different thing. I think, objectively speaking,
when you look at what Pope did in year one,
Kentucky brings back he's got him at twelve, I think
there's no excuse like thirteen fourteen is the worst, and
I think you're ceiling going in. I think you could

(39:10):
probably justify as good as like seven. Overall, it's really
good to Pope's done a really, really nice job and
it's been it's been awesome to see just it's been
awesome to see how he has really adapted to having
this job.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
And we can go wherever you want. But just a
quick comment on this.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
I'm sure you've talked about this plenty of times on
your show over the past year plus, but Cali Perry
when he was hired at two thousand and nine, was.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
The perfect guy at that job at the perfect time.

Speaker 3 (39:36):
And yes, it was a disappointment that in the grand
scheme you look back won national title that's a disappointment,
no doubt about it.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
But he was the right guy with the right mindset
to handle that job.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
And then for someone to replace him, Pope, what he
has upstairs, how he's built, how he's wired.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Man. That was another one where I think it.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Was perfect timing because he's completely different than Cal. But
Cal was the perfect person at the time, and Pope
was the perfect this time because Cal in many ways
filled all the voids at the end of the Tubbi
Era and Gillespie Era had given us. He checked all
the bad boxes like, he flipped them all. And then
where Cal went off the rails, Pope flipped those. And

(40:20):
I've told this story a lot on my regular show.
I don't know if you know this story, but when
I met Pope for the first time, like four months
after he was hired, because I didn't I was out
of the country for three months after he got hired.
And when I met him, I was like, you know, man,
I have to tell you, if KL had come back,
I was probably gonna quit. And I said, you being

(40:41):
here and me going away for a while. And then
he started going in this long thing about how I
needed to keep doing it, and he then said something
like he said, when I lose, I want you to
blast me. If you don't blast me, I'm gonna call
and get mad at you. Because the day the fans
don't care anymore, and the day the fans think the

(41:01):
coach is above criticism, then this isn't Kentucky anymore. So
he said, if you are ever soft on me, be ready,
I'm gonna ask you why. Now. We'll see if he
really believes that one day, because I loved him this
year and I'll probably continue to love him. But just
the I that was exactly what Kentucky fans needed in
that moment. And I think the fact that the two
completely different people made it work in two completely different ways,

(41:25):
I think has been really cool to see.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
I agree with you.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
And it's a bit easier to say this because now
we're living in this reality. But you think about just
you know, Scott, Drew, Dan Hurley, those guys turning it down.
And so that's not to say that if either of
them had taken it really was never taken to Kentucky joll.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Let's to be clear about that.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
It was never happening, but either of them had taken
it that they could have had a success yere in
and we'd be talking about this is why this works whatever.
But man, there's just something about Pope, the fact that
he played there, was on the ninety six team, how
he was wired, he was the captain. And he's even
still got a I mean, he's got he's got something.
Like he even said I saw him on the trail

(42:02):
and he was he like jokingly was like, you know
when they fire me in a year. I was like, dude,
you gotta stop saying that, like you are doing a
great like he's got a he's got a self deprecating
nature about him, because I think a part of him
is a part of him doesn't believe he has a job.
And then he also he's he hasn't said this, but
I remember Tony bennett'a. I went to Tony Bennet's retirement
press conference last October, and I'm gonna paraphrase here, but

(42:25):
Tony Bennett basically said, like the job was never mine
to begin with. I was just I was just renting
it in place, and now it's time to give it away.
And that is one hundred percent the way Pope seesus.
Like he he does not see it as it is
his job. He is a placeholder for something that means
a ton to people in that state that love that
program so much. And uh, and he's he's the right

(42:47):
he's the right guy for it, he really is. It'll
be it will be interested, there will be down times,
there will be some there will be some tough stuff.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
I will be interest to see how he handles.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
So we saw a little bit that last year year one,
but overall, big picture like unquestionably a massive success.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, and he gets the there's a part of this
where for Kentucky fans they want to win, but they
also have this like family thing where they want like
a big blue nation like where this it just means
different things to people here. And he gets that better
than any coach that I've seen. Okay, so you and
I had a I don't want to say a disagreement
because I, as I said on my show today, if

(43:22):
Matt Norlander said it, I know that he heard it,
and so I'm not going to dispute him on that.
But you had said that someone had told you on
the trail that of the basically you know, eighteen million
dollars that will be distributed between football and basketball at
most schools. Most schools are kind of putting two point
five to the other sports that you thought it could

(43:42):
even be like nine and nine at Kentucky of football
and basketball. So I tweeted out that you said that,
and I'm gonna go ahead and tell you. I mean,
I haven't got to tell you this privately, but all
of a sudden, I kept hearing from everyone in the
football world at UK. It wasn't the basketball, it wasn't
the football world. Just all of a sudd Just sometimes
when people like you put stuff out and I retweet it,

(44:03):
people act like I put it out and they get
mad at me, and so they're riding me and they go,
how could you say that it's not that, it's not that,
and then insisted that it was the opposite and that
they didn't give me a number, but essentially that it
was competitive between UK and the other SEC schools and football.
I found that interesting because it used to be that
UK football would privately complain that there wasn't as much

(44:25):
money going. So I don't know what the basis of
that is, but I've explained on my show why I
said it. The nine and nine talk about where you
heard that and why.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
So here's what I have. Okay.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
So I was on the trail and I got it
from two different sources. One source said, uh, Kentucky men's
basketball should be getting close to half of the revenue share,
which I understood be twenty point five million. Okay, of
the overall twenty point five million. And then another source
specifically gave me forty five percent. So I said, okay,
so that's one that's very specifically, yeah, very well, how

(44:58):
about this? So I put so that's two sources. And
so I intentionally when I wrote, I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna put this out there. Kentucky fans are going
to see it, and like, I know, there'll probably be
some reaction to it, but I too good sources like
passed this along to me, and.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
I wrote believed to be not is, but believed to be.
That's fair.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
That's two connected sources. Providing that I then had two.
So this is two for the story. Then you put
out what you put out that was like, hey, football,
or I heard from sources that to the degree which
it was stated was in that level. Well, then I
had another how about this? I had another source, to

(45:33):
be clear, in the industry, not a Kentucky contacted someone
with Kentucky shared a screenshot with me that said, UK,
I'm looking at the screenshot right now from July ninth.
By the way, UK, next year we'll have a forty
five percent go to basketball and fifty percent to football.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
That's a third source.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
And then a fourth source connected to Kentucky reinforced to
me that the number was accurate, that it indeed the plan.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
I'll stress this.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
The plan was for men's basket bsketball for the forthcoming
season to have a forty five percent rev share of
the entire twenty point five million cap. Now, this is
the other extremely important part of this discussion. One two parts. Actually, One,
does does Mitch Barnhart technically have the capacity in August, September, October,
November to say it was fifty percent for football? Now?

(46:21):
But I actually this needs to go to fifty seven
percent or sixty percent Dussy Willie, I don't know. And
then number two, since my story came out, literally the
CSC changed its guideline to a point where, if so,
this could have even changed in the past twenty four
hours to this point, if that's going to actually be
true and football then needs to go from purportedly fifty

(46:41):
percent to sixty to seventy percent in its budget and
then allows Kentucky basketball to basically make up the difference
in nil. That's an important factor as well. But as
one source also told me and we talked about for
Kentucky football, this I cannot speak to.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
I'm just passing it along. I can't speak to how
valid this is or not.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
On the they basically were saying, on some level, if
Kentucky football is getting fifty percent of it tennil revshare
cap or it's getting seventy percent, does that twenty percent
difference does it actually make any kind of difference whatsoever
in terms of what kind of football team Kentucky will field.
If it's seventy percent or fifty per center, are you
having the same exact team? And then this other source
put forth to me that Stoops they're really turning the

(47:20):
screws on him. And the situation was with Stoops two
three years ago. Again, I cannot speak to this, I'm
just passing along what was told to me. The situation
was Stoops two three years ago versus what it is now.
Obviously not nearly as rosy. And so if you're trying
to a little bit like some other coaching situation we've
seen where if you're on the brink and you want
to make a decision, well you might not make it
as easy as possible to make that decision whether or

(47:40):
not to move on easier. I'm sure he has a
massive buy up, but I'm just passing along.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
It was passing.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, Well, okay, so now when you tell me you
have four sources, I want I'm more inclined to believe
you than than what I heard.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
But it would make sense, by the way, Matt, for
football people to want to push back on this because
you do not want to have it known in the
sec that Kentucky has the lowest amount of weird.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
To me about that, I totally agree with you. But
what's weird to me about that? And this is I
can just say to you because I have for fifteen
years taken phone calls from either basketball, football or the
ads complaining about something I've said. Like that's been a
regular part of my life going back to about two
thousand and eight. So but when the whole basketball football

(48:22):
school thing was going on here, okay, that little stoops
cal here, both sides would would want to contact me
to make clear what was wrong with the other side. Okay,
the basketball people were very adamant to criticize the football people,
and the football people were very adamant to criticize the
basketball And it would always be funny to when I
would se people online go, oh, this is not that

(48:42):
big a deal, and I'd be like, yes it is.
You just have to come and listen to my phone calls.
It has been very rare for the people on the
football side to if they think they're getting hose, they
say it right, and so it was interesting to me
that they didn't want to say that. Now a lot
of this is like we don't really know because we

(49:02):
don't know how they make up the money and the
other parts. Are these universities even gonna have to tell us?
Like do you know, like are the universities gonna ever
have to say what they actually did?

Speaker 3 (49:15):
Depends on how they run their systems. You know, Kentucky
isn't Kentucky taking some of its stuff independently as an athletics.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
But they told me that they would still release everything
they would release. I think they should think.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
They should and I just want to reemphasize this. I
as I understand it. I do think sometimes reporting can
trigger other action. So if this was the intention for Kentucky,
I still think if there's enough internal bull black or whatever,
I still think there's a chance that the number actually
winds up getting usted, especially after the rule changed.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
I think that's a very important point matter. How would
you don't skip over that because you're more your reporter.
I'm not reporting can change action. Happens all the time,
and sometimes it happens and then people say the reporter
was wrong and you were actually right, and the reaction
to you report got them to change the course.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
I think that happens a lot. That sometimes can happen.
But I would say this, if you're Kentucky, I know
football still means a good, great deal and you do
not want to be in the basement of a sixteen
team sec From a football standpoint, I completely get that whatsoever,
But you can't. You cannot you have a really really
good head coach and men's basketball from a talent acquisition standpoint,

(50:26):
when individual players with the exception of a quarterback obviously
mean more in basketball college basketball than the new football.
I understand that getting a great edg Rusher, an amazing
left tackle, you know, a first round draft pick as
a wide receiver, but particularly quarterback. I understand how much
those things can mean in the portal. I'm just telling
you in terms of star players. From what I've gathered,
this is two three years worth of anecdotes and stories

(50:47):
from coaches, agents, et cetera. The basketball market is more
expensive than the football market. There's more money into football
because the rosters are bigger. But if you want to
maintain a competitive edge in Kentucky, as you well know,
I actually I don't believe Entucky spent twenty million on
its roster for this upcoming season. I would believe north
of fifteen sixteen. Maybe we're getting into semantics there, but.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Really you think fifteen or sixteen million.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
This year, I would believe that if that was.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
If you told me Kentucky, if you told me Kentucky truly,
if we could have a way to peek into the accounting,
if we fast forwarded to say New Year's Day, and said,
you know, collectively, on Kentucky's men's basketball roster, how much
has been a lotted or will be allotted. If you
told me that was in the range of fifteen million,
I would one hundred percent believe that, and they would
not be the only school to hit that number. Now

(51:33):
there has been I don't has there been like reports.
I know the twenty million number has been associated, it's
been said, it's.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
Been said out there. I don't know if to win
since it's that's.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
That's an outrageous amount. Now, what I do think is possible,
and I want to be very clear about this. This is
now me speculating. This is not reporting. This is nothing
anyone indicating to me. I do think it's possible that
if Kentucky before this rule changed, and they're not the
only one wanted to get ahead of it, because I
reference to school in my story, but I don't identify
which school, and it's not Kentucky.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Be clear on this.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
If they wanted to front load, they're all of the
Nile money, which would have been the smart thing to do. So, frankly,
if Pope and his staff had the ability to do this,
they should have done it. Front load everything before years.
What you basically do is you double your rev share
cap allowance for the next year, and that basically puts
you at a super advantage against most other schools. There
might be a couple other schools that are in your
neighborhood when it comes to that stuff. But bottom line

(52:25):
is this, Kentucky needs to make sure that basketball is
consistently the most important thing at its school because it
is the most important thing. And finding that balance between
revenue distribution between the men's basketball program and the football
program is Barnhardt doesn't have an easy job. I get
that there's a lot of pressures with it, but don't
allow Kentucky to enter into a situation where it's where
North Carolina is right now because.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
It was very briefly there.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
It was very briefly there with Billy Gillespie in a
different circumstances.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
You never want to go back to that.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
It's going to be there with Cal, like that's where
we were headed with Cal. They were not raising money
that they were they were about to be with CAL.
I will say this to make you, I don't know
if you feel better, but when when your report came
out that said forty five percent or whatever, most of
the fan base said, good. That was what most of

(53:13):
the fan base. When I did a little thing on
my show and I said what should it be? And
everyone said it should be what Norlander's reporting or more,
I mean, it's it's fascinating how much this fan base
likes when football is good. It's fun, but they put
basketball has to be good. And I think that that

(53:36):
most people were hoping you were right, are right about that.
So I guess we'll see. I guess we'll finish with this.
You've been doing this. You were doing the ile on
college basketball since what eight? You said nine?

Speaker 3 (53:51):
If you want to get really technical, not to go
into the lore I started. I was before at CBS.
I had a blog back in the day. Anyone listening
or watching that remembers reading at College Hoops Journal, So
I technically start starts the Journal podcast in two thoy ten,
I wanted it might have been oh nine actually, and
that eventually morphed into I on College Basketball in twenty eleven.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
So yeah, that's that's when I was there too. So
I started KSR and five. So we're hitting our twentieth
anniversary in September. This was a website at first, So
give me your Matt Norlander sits down. He writes his memoir,
give me your favorite moment covering games, or your favorite

(54:34):
moment where you say that's my this is was the
best thing I saw during my time doing this.

Speaker 3 (54:39):
Okay, First of all, no one's reading my memoir, but
I appreciate that. Okay, since I got to CBS. The
one thing that I'm happiest that I was there, and
there's been a lot, but being in the building to
see Chris Jenkins hit the winner against Carolina in twenty sixteen.
That's the only like out and out true buzzer beater
in NA turn history. Wittenberg learns or Charles NCCT eighty

(55:02):
three like kind of qualifies but kind of doesn't.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
The shot was an air ball.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
Wittenberg dunked it and then there was still time in
the clock, but they didn't stop the clock at after
a made basket in eighty three. I'm getting into technicalities there.
Jenkins would be there getting to cover Tony Bennett and
Virginia winning the twenty nineteen title. That's in my top
twenty five stories list. I think some folks don't quite
remember how outrageous it was that Virginia won the title

(55:26):
because they had basically from the elitate on and even
the Sweet sixteen was a four point win over organ
but the Purdue game, Carson Ebers goes for forty two
overtime Mamadi Diakita hits the buzzer beater to get overtime.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
Then they escape, and they escape against.

Speaker 3 (55:40):
Harburn controversially in the final four, and then they then
they have to rally to get to overtime in the
title game against Texas Tech.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
And then they weren't they even losing in their first
round game again.

Speaker 3 (55:49):
They were, yeah, Gravey, actually I have one line and
there people forget that, so they lose to this obviously
comes one year.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Never seen a sixteen be to one.

Speaker 3 (55:56):
UNBC destroys Virginia seventy four to fifty four to twenty point,
winning twenty eighteen. It was just bizarre to wait forever
for sixteen to beat one and it was a blowout.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
That was that range a weird thing.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
A year later, Virginia was the title but in the
first round, Gardner went, they were losing in the first
half of that game too.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
Yes, that's a very good memory.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
So just being able to document that, I really got
to know Tony Bennett well and the in the two
or three years preceding that, got to know his father well,
interviewed his sister, his wife, So that that was just
it was cool to be able to because Tony Bennett
was he remained closed off to a certain extent. He
was just not someone that needed to have everyone know
everything about his life. He wasn't, you know, especially private,

(56:34):
but he kind of let me in a little bit,
So that was a that was appreciated. There's been plenty, man,
I'm just the Jenkins one is definitely number one.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
Well, so a couple that just stick out that I
wondered you about. Duke Carolina playing in the final four
was probably pretty also huge.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
I was also in the building, so that would be
top five. The final form was huge, but I was
in Cameron when Carolina beat Duke on.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
The final nine. Yeah, that's cool. I think for me personally,
the John Wall team was amazingly fun. But I would
think as an outsider watching, i mean, watching the twenty
fifteen team try to go undefeated was kind of I mean,
that was a rare time in college basketball that the
world of college basketball was following every game to kind
of see if they were going to be able. And

(57:16):
there was that game in LSU where they won at
the end and there was it was just like it
was a storyline all season. Then college basketball doesn't get
that a lot and they got it that year.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
But as your fans listening, no, and I was, I
really should try and sit down and do a top
ten of games I covered, because this game would be
in the top five. Notre Dame almost be Kentucky should have. Yeah,
it was an incredible gameland.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Actually Judd ended up on my postgame show dancing on
a glass table in the lobby of a Cleveland hotel.
It won't be as big a deal to you, but
Kentucky Louisville in the Final four kind of like Duke
Carolina had that that had that sort of really bizarre,
bizarre situation. And then for us the Aaron Harrison run,

(58:00):
all those shots that he hit.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
No, I know those were good.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
I mean I've been at every Final force to to
get to experience a lot of that.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
Covering the COVID, I was.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Gonna ask you, what what was that one? Like?

Speaker 3 (58:12):
Weird but good, But I don't think I'd want to
do it again. You got to get tested like every day.
But it was like I covered in still the tournament
games at hinkle Fieldhouse, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
You know.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
The situation with how they played in half of Lucas
Oil I sugs hits the thirty seven footer to get
to the title game. And then Baylor, you know, Gonzaga
was the other team undefeated going into a national championship
game in a COVID season. You know, it's those were
really fun, really cool things to cover. There's there's there's
no sign stuff.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
I mean Zion, I mean he's the biggest.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
I did a thing earlier this I'm big on just
like you know, wanting to document the uh in chronicle.
You know, the things that matter in a given sport,
and I so earlier this year, I did not the
best players, the biggest stars two different things, and sometimes
those things intersect. I don't think it's ourg The most
accomplished player of this century is Tyler Hansbroke at UNC.

(59:04):
He has all these acc records for your player, three
time first team All American, you know, never lost at Cameron.
He's the most decorated player. Zion Williamson was the biggest
star without even at one year, there was no one.
I guess the most basic way that I could put
it is and I just don't think.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
This is arguable.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
In men's basketball, Caitlin Clark is the most famous college
basketball player of the past twenty five years and men's
there was no one that was more famous while in
college than Zion Williamson. He had presidents coming to his
games and it just a played for duke. He had
a megawatts smile, He looked different from anyone we'd ever seen.
I got to cover obviously a lot of him in
person as well, so he was big. I'll just a

(59:43):
couple more that kind of stick out, like going into
Manhattan to cover an FBI trial and like covering the
whole everything, everything associated with that was I mean then
that was a two year saga that was extremely, extremely surreal,
So you know that was that was a big one
as well. But you know, as we kind of put
a button on this and go full circle, there has

(01:00:05):
been so much that has happened to college basketball over
the past twenty five years that you know, creating a
list of the top twenty five in one story is
just it's not It's.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
A great list. It's a great list. It's on cbssports
dot com. Yeah, your your Zione point, just as.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
You would agree, right, I would agree.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
I would agree. It's sort of the argument like at Kentucky,
if you were just do Kentucky two different questions, best
player by lifetime Anthony Davis, it's the biggest star John Wall, Like,
those are two different things. And John Wall is the
biggest basketball star at Kentucky of my lifetime. He's probably
the biggest Kentucky athlete of my lifetime. I mean it's

(01:00:44):
it's Rex Chapman and John Wall. That's there are rock
stars in Kentucky basketball. Anthony Davis is great, dan Issel
is great. Rock stars Rex Chapman and John Wall and
no one else's close.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
How about that? Anthony Davis was just not like John
Wall cover And then I.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Think, I mean, you remember you mentioned presidents coming, We
had jay z Lebron, Magic Drake. All those dudes came.
Did they come to see Anthony Davis? They came to
see Joe Wall. I mean, that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
And a lot of that and obviously, as you well know,
some of that was Cal's first year and everything just
dove tailing there. And there are a few very interesting
should have happened Slash what ifs. One of them is
that that that Kentucky team didn't make the final four?

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Uh should have?

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
They played what's Virginia ten times? They probably go eight
and two so that was like two of the ten
when they don't get the win. But yeah, what a
what a time that was just to think about. Man,
it wasn't that long ago, but it does feel like,
you know, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Like a different world. There was snowing in Syracuse during
that game as well. Matt Norlander, great stuff. Thank you
very much for doing this CBS Sports dot Com. We
appreciate it, and uh, I'm sure we'll do it again
maybe during the season.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Hey, have a wonderful, wonderful summ. Appreciate you have me
on that you as well.