Episode 22 - Noam Weissman

Noam Weissman is the host of the podcast Unpacking Israeli History and co-host of Wondering Jews with Mijal and Noam. He is the Senior Vice President at OpenDor Media and a member of the Aspen Institute Fellowship with Matt.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is Interrupted by Matt Jones on news radio Waight
forty WJS.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Now here's Matt Jones.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
It is episode twenty two of Interrupted by Matt Jones,
presented by Cornbread Hemp. This is the Good Life, and
I have to tell you I'm excited about this one.
You may remember in episode one, I had Bomani Jones on,
who is a legitimate, real world good friend of mine.
And now we have the second time that's happened. I'm
not interviewing strangers. Well, we had Josh Hopkins, so this

(00:32):
is the third time it's happened. Gnoam Weissman. I have
to pronounce this. I had to be very particular about
his name. He is for those of you that have
listened to me, he is part of my Aspen Institute fellowship,
the nerdy thing that pulls me away from the show
four times in the last two years, and now he's

(00:54):
joining me. He's the host of Understanding Israeli History, a podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:00):
Right Unpacking Unpacking.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Excuse me, I gotta get the name right.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Unpacking Israeli History a great podcast with a big audience,
and he teaches around the country about Israel and all
the circumstances around it. No, it's it is exciting to
have you, and it's honor and it's also just good
to see you.

Speaker 4 (01:20):
Yeah, it's so good to see you, Matt.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Matt, I gotta tell you your whole audience, Matt, you
are just everyone should know this about you, and they
probably listened to you so they get it. Matt is
the MVP of the aspin Fellowship.

Speaker 4 (01:33):
Stop it, it's true. It's true, Matt.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
If we were to all vote, I am sure that
Matt would win MVP. And it's because of your personality,
it's because of your interest, it's because of your care
of everyone.

Speaker 4 (01:45):
So I'm just so pumped to be here with you.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
It actually means a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
Thank you for saying that it was two years ago
about this time that we met that our first thing
was I remember it because can you remember it? Probably
because it was a couple of weeks after the attack
on October seventh. I remember it because Kentucky was playing
Alabama that weekend in football, which probably showcases the two

(02:12):
ways we often everybody goes through the world themselves. But
I remember meeting in Montgomery and going, what am I
Am I gonna do with all of these people from
all over and it's been a great honor to do it.
And I've when you speak, the group listens in part
because you have a great presence and in part because
you pause and take so long that we have to

(02:33):
stay completely into it to hear it, which I love.

Speaker 4 (02:38):
That's hilarious.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Man, I'm just thinking about what I'm saying. I'm just
like trying to be reflective and whatever. But here's also
the truth, Matt. You pretend like we're all nerds and
this fellowship. You're just as nerdy as the rest of us.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
I am. I'm a huge n I'm completely nerd. But
it's great. And later on I'm gonna get you to
talk a little bit about what we do there, because
my audience never I'm always having a hard time exp
But here's why I wanted to have you on. I
think you do a great job of sort of You've
done this with me. When I first met you, I
think I said to you you asked me a question

(03:11):
about what I thought of the Israel Palestine situation, and
I think I said to you that I had almost
no thoughts because I didn't know much about it, and
you seemed very surprised. I was wondering if you'd taught
me through that reaction. And we're all a product of
where we are. And I think a lot of people
that are listening to this are like that. When I

(03:34):
said that to you, what did you think? And and like,
what was it like for you to hear here's a
person that seems to do not even have a thought
on it.

Speaker 4 (03:43):
I'll tell you exactly what I thought. I thought a
few things.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
One is, hey, listen, Matt, you are a smart guy.
You are a knowledgeable guy. You are a studious guy,
a learned guy. And you are somebody who reads the
New York Times or the Wall Street journ or whatever
you read, right, you must have seen this on the
front cover of so many newspapers around the world, and

(04:08):
come on, like you don't have Matt Jones doesn't have
an opinion on this?

Speaker 4 (04:11):
That was thought number one. Thought Number two.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Was, wow, I am living in my own little bubble
that I think that this is what's on everyone's mind. Yeah,
it's in the news, okay, but like it's not in ever,
it's not on your mind, and you're smart.

Speaker 4 (04:27):
Thoughtful guy.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
And then number three was, and I don't know if
you remember this, you taught me my lungeons about Melundon
is ever I didn't and then I had no idea
what that word was. And I think that I'm a knowledgeable,
civilized person, and I didn't know anything about melungeons. And
then we had this like two hour conversation about lungeons

(04:52):
and about what we know and what we don't know,
and I didn't know if it was a derogatory term
or not a derogatory term. Then I felt like I
wanted to make sure that I wasn't saying the wrong thing.
And that's like a microcosm for I think the way
a lot of the world works that the world does
not does not simply revolve around what we think is
the most important thing. But it's important to kind of
get out there and hear from each other. And so

(05:14):
that was my initial reaction.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
And you have made me.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
I used to glaze over everything about, honestly Israel and
the various issues in that region because I thought, I
don't know this and it's too complicated and I'm not
going to pay attention. That's exactly what I've thought about
it for thirty years, and then since meeting you, I've
started to follow it more and I think a lot

(05:40):
of people want to know more and feel it's been
from two years ago to now, it's been a much
more talked about thing, I think in mainstream American politics.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
So I want to help you.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
Have you helped me God through this from your perspective
you do the podcast Unpacking Israeli History. I'm not going
to ask you to sum up Israeli history in one minute,
but the roots of the current issue with Israel and Palestine.
If you were to explained in people a one to
two minute primer on how we got here today, or

(06:18):
at least to where we were on October seventh of
two years ago, what's the best way you would explain that?

Speaker 4 (06:24):
I would say it is.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
The first thing I would want everyone to know is
it's okay for things to be complex, and when people
try to make something that is complex simple, they're doing
a disservice to the world.

Speaker 4 (06:36):
That's number one.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Number two is I would say that there are competing
claims from two different peoples to the same land, to
the same territory, to the same area, and there are
different reasons why these two different peoples have had a claim.
One reason is religion. Right, there's Islam. There's Judaism, and
the Palestinians say, hey, listen, this is a land that

(06:59):
we have conquered over the years. And when you're a
Muslim and you have the conquered land, that's something called
ali Islam, which means that you had land at one
point in time. Now I don't return that land to anyone.
And Judaism says, one second, hey, we for three thousand
years have had a connection to this land of Israel.

(07:20):
There was the first Temple, there was the second Temple
that was destroyed two thousand years ago, and since then
the Jewish people have been praying to return to that land.
They pray three times a day, actually praying to return
to that land. And in the late nineteenth century, when
there was an opportunity to actually make that dream come alive,

(07:42):
the Jewish people started making that dream come alive. In
the early nineteen hundreds, the Jews only represented around ten
percent of the land of Palestine. In nineteen thirty seven,
it represented around thirty thirty three percent, and by around
nineteen forty seven, when the partition plan was determined by

(08:02):
the United Nations, the United Nations said, hey, thirty three
of us are voting in favor of a Jewish and
an Arab state, thirteen of us are voting against it,
and ten of us are going to abstain. That was
the second time that a two state solution that term
that people here was suggested. The first time was a
nineteen thirty seven. The Arab world rejected it. They said, no,

(08:25):
Jewish people are colonizers coming to colonize this land. They're
just an extension of Europeans. And the Jewish people said, no,
we are returning to our ancient homeland. Since then, since
nineteen forty seven, from nineteen let's.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
Stop, if you don't mind, let me stop with nineteen.

Speaker 4 (08:41):
You could just keep up.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
I want to go back to before. So at its
core this.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Conflict, and I'm not just talking that in the last
two years, but the overall big picture conflict is two people,
two groups of people, who both see a particular is
it the same piece of land, the exact same piece
of land?

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yes, it is exact.

Speaker 4 (09:04):
Same is the exact same piece of land?

Speaker 3 (09:06):
So they both see the exact same piece of land
as being theirs from historical religious perspectives, is that fair
to say? And tell me when we talk about this
land I think people get confused. You have Israel, you
have Palestine, you have Gaza. What is the piece of
land that we're talking about specifically?

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Okay, So the land of Israel is the land that
includes what's called the West Bank, Yes, the West Bank
of Jordan and the way the Jewish people often refer
to it as Judae and Samaria, and also many Christians
because that's what it's called in the Bible, and that's
one piece of the land.

Speaker 4 (09:48):
Then there's to the.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
West of that that's like there's Jerusalem, and then to
the west of that all the way to Tel Aviv
on the coast, which is like just an awesome place
to go and live and party in a a good time.

Speaker 4 (09:57):
Matt. We got to go there sometimes because it's a lot.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
I would love to go one die. I'm not sure
if today is the day, but one day I will go.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
We'll get there, Matt, We'll get that. That's considered the
state of Israel. That is to the west of that
West Bank, southwest of that is called Gaza. Okay, Gaza.
I have to give you the history here because all
of this is confusing. From forty eight to sixty seven,
there was a war that was fought in nineteen forty
eight for the Jewish state to exist. Okay, the Jewish

(10:28):
state was fought against by different Arab armies, not Palestinian
yet there were different Arab armies like Egypt and Syria
and Jordan. And what happened was the State of Israel
was created, a Jewish state, the one and only Jewish
state in the world. The Jewish people don't have any
interest in having more than one state. They just want
one state.

Speaker 3 (10:46):
And prior to nineteen forty eight, that would have been
a different state.

Speaker 4 (10:50):
There was no Jewish state now I know.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
But what was that piece of land before nineteen the piece.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Of before nineteen forty eight, that region was known as Palestine.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
And it was and who governed.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
It From nineteen seventeen to nineteen forty eight it was
the Brits and still nineteen seventeen, for five hundred years
it was the.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Ottoman So it was never Palestinian in government. It was
governed by British colamulans.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Never a palaesign as a country. But to explain that
nationality and nationalism wasn't a real thing. All countries were
being formed in the early twentieth century and in the
late nineteenth century.

Speaker 4 (11:26):
That was the movement of nationalism. So in nineteen.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Forty eight, Israel defeats these five Arab armies. There were
only around six hundred thousand Israelis. Around one percent of
these Israelis were killed at this time, which is a
crazy number to think about six thousand were killed.

Speaker 4 (11:43):
It's one percent. I don't try to think of.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
The American equivalent to that. I don't know who that
number is. And Gaza went to Egypt. Egypt won Gaza.
There's a lot of this is people don't know this.
And Jordan, the country of Jordan. I alway think of
Michael Jordan the goat when I say Jordan, no matter what,
I just think of Jordan, Michael Jordan. But Jordan won
the West Bank. Okay, what happened was from forty eight

(12:05):
to sixty seven, Egypt did not give Palestinians citizenship. From
forty eight to sixty seven the West Bank, Jordan gave
some form of citizenship to the Palestinians living there. And
then in nineteen sixty seven everything changed. Everything change.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
So then Israel, through course of a war, I believe,
did they take over both.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Of those in nineteen sixty seven, everything changed. Israel tripled
in size. There was a war called the Sixth Day
War in which Egypt was threatening to annihilate to Israel
to say, the Jewish people, Jewish state will no longer
exist anymore. His name is Gamala ab del Nasser, and
he said, we are going to destroy the Jewish state.

(12:46):
Israel then did what's called a preemptive strike, destroyed all
their airplanes.

Speaker 4 (12:50):
It was crazy.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
I mean, is it fair to say?

Speaker 3 (12:54):
And again, I want to try to give this I
want to hear your take on it, but I also want
to try to give it as fair a saying.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
One. Is it fair to say.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
That that is the Israeli perspective that it was a
preemptive strike? Or is that you think that's objective? If
I were to have a Palestinian scholar on how would
they describe it?

Speaker 1 (13:15):
So great question, and that's the right question. So behind
me are all these books that I recommend everyone to read.
Always you have to learn Palestinian narratives and Israeli narratives.
I'm not presenting either the Palestinian or the Israeli narrative
on anything, but these books I always recommend. Once upon
a country by Sari Nusaibe, where the line is drawn
by Raja shahade And then you should also read books

(13:36):
like Arabs and Israeli's Palestine nineteen thirty six.

Speaker 4 (13:39):
And like Dreamers get as wide of a view as possible.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
I did a three part series in unpacking his early
history about sixty seven, showing the different perspectives how the
Arabs viewed sixty seven and how the Israeli's viewed sixty seven.
I think both would argue, no matter what, that this
was a preemptive strike. The question is whether or not
Israel was right to do the preactive strike, whether there
was what's called a castaspelly. You know law much better

(14:04):
than I do, Matt, but whether or not you could
explain what a cassas belly is. But whether there were
the threat of annihilation of Israel, and whether or not
the closing of the Strait of Tehran was considered a
good enough threat to therefore suggest and to remove the
United Nations.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
So what was the Israeli moral argument, not just for
the for the preemptive strike, but the argument that after
that six day war they should be able to take
Gaza in the West Bank. What's the what's the moral
just a land grab? What's the moral struck?

Speaker 4 (14:42):
The definitely not a land grab. I think that there
are those.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Let me make the argument that it is a land
grab first though, argument that it is a land grab
would say, hey, listen, no one actually attacked you. They
just threatened to attack you. No one actually did anything
like that. And what you you did after the Sixth
Day War is you got the Sinai, right, we forgot
about that, which is bigger than all of Israel. You

(15:08):
got Gaza the southwest, you got the West Bank to
the east, and you got the Golan to the north.
It seems like you try to grab some land which
is for and for your reasons might be either because
for security purposes to say, hey listen, we're not gonna
now be What's They used to call it the Auschwitz
borders because of how narrow Auschitz being the worst concentration

(15:31):
camp in death camp that the Jews people went.

Speaker 4 (15:32):
Through during the Holocaust.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
They called it the Auschwitz borders because of how narrow
the land of Israel was without the West Bank. So
what you tried to do is you tried to assert
your authority and you try to grab the land that you.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
Won, use the idea of this potential threat to just
do what you wanted to do anyway, which was expanded
exactually like.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
You use this as a quite a great moment to
now somehow triple in size.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
So what's the counter to that.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
The counter to that would be, no, we actually me
we've in this case being the Israeli had no interest
in fighting these wars as and we proved it because
nineteen forty eight we settled to not have Jerusalem, we
settled to not have the West Bank. We retreated in
the nineteen fifty six war after President Eisenhower said, you

(16:22):
guys got to stop in that that was a previous war.
And the counter is that in nineteen sixty seven, after
Israel won this war in a crazy decisive way in
six days, that they then had negotiations amongst themselves and
with others about what to do with this land in
the West Bank. And they would say, hey, listen, we
gave back to the Sinai in the late seventies, right, we.

Speaker 4 (16:45):
Gave that back to Egypt. Israel doesn't have that anymore.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
The counter is that Israel gave up Gaza in two
thousand and five, and that doesn't exist anymore.

Speaker 4 (16:54):
And the counter would be that in nineteen.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
Okay, but I want to go back to sixties.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
I appreciate that that you would look back and go,
we gave this back. But is it fair to say
that in nineteen sixty seven you ended up giving all
that back in nineteen sixty seven though on that day
you didn't know you were gonna give it back. And
to some extent, that was a land gran maybe land

(17:20):
that you believe historically you should have, but that it
was a land GRP.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
That is, it is a land that you historically believe
is yours. But what happened was two months after this war,
something tremendous happened. They didn't they actually did not. There
was no settlements at the time, you know, the term.

Speaker 4 (17:37):
Settlements didn't exist.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
That didn't start in earnest until the mid seventies and
until the eighties.

Speaker 4 (17:43):
It didn't happen, And that's something people don't know. It
started later on.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
What happened was in September of nineteen sixty seven, the
Arabs got together in what's called Khartoum, in a city
called Khartum, and they said, after this war, something that
I think has never been said before. It's called the
three no's. Everyone should check it up. It's called the
Cartoon resolution. By the way, this is something never trust anything. Everyone,
never trust everything. Anyone says like, but.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
I want to go back.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
I'm not trying to cut you off, but I need
you to in order to kind of keep advancing. I
do want to make sure that we acknowledge that fact
before whatever they did two months later, before everything was given.
You do think in nineteen sixty seven Israel did it
to expand territory because they believed it was theirs historically.

Speaker 4 (18:28):
No, no, I do not believe you do not, Okay,
So I do not no, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
I believe that there are those who would say that
that's part of the Israel.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
So why do you believe they did it?

Speaker 4 (18:38):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (18:38):
I believe they did it because they were They had
a preemptive They had major concerns about Egypt from the
south and Syria from the north, and they got rid
of all of the different the UN personnel in between
the two.

Speaker 4 (18:53):
And I think that they were shocked beyond belief.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
But I'm saying after the Sixth Day War their decision
to continue to inhabit did and claim it.

Speaker 4 (19:01):
They didn't it.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
That's what I'm saying. They didn't inhabit it. Okay, they
did not. There was no inhabiting Okay. I think that
they were very concerned and confused as to what to do.
You just got all these Palestinian Arabs now under your
authority in Gaza in the West Bank. What in the
world do we do? They never annexed it. If they
annexed it, I'd be like, oh, okay, well that's what
you say.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
Your authority. I mean you the Israel chose to have
it under their authority.

Speaker 4 (19:27):
Well, kind of who are they going to give it
back to?

Speaker 3 (19:31):
Well, I mean they could have had a ceasefied. I
mean again, I'm speaking about what I don't know. Tell
me if I'm wrong. They could have had a ceasefire
to war that returned the borders to where they were
before the war.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
To you're saying, you're you're going to be attacked by
these people. You defeated them in war, and now you say,
here's here's the land back.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
Well, I mean the United States has been in wars
and then given the land back. I mean, or like
the United States has won wars. We didn't take over Germany.
We didn't take over Japan. I mean that would have
been an option correct.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Well, maybe if but if Mexico and Canada were to
get in a major war with the United States of America,
there were next door neighbors, which is very different than Germany,
I think, and and that and that that's a totally
I think that that would be a very fair question
to ask if the US was attacked and threatened annihilation
by Mexico and Canada and right by the border, and

(20:24):
they were and they were told, hey, listen, we will
kill you if we have the opportunity.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
Okay, so will you and argue, like from a safety perspective,
you're saying that they sort of take it okay, fair enough.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
I understand that this is really important.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
I'm not saying at all that Israel made the right
decision at all by by inhabiting the borders after after
the sixties seven war. I'm not saying they made the
right decision. I think that that question is up for dispute.
And and I and I want to see and shared
Palestinian and Israeli narratives on this whole uh, on the

(20:57):
on the whole situation. There was and that's but this
moment that I need to tell you about in Khartoon
is really important.

Speaker 4 (21:03):
It changed everything. The war was fought in June of
sixty seven.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
Okay, I'm not gonna matt three months later, three months
later nothing.

Speaker 4 (21:13):
It was vague. What in the world is gonna happen
with this land? We don't know. We don't know.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
What's gonna happen in Judae and Samaria and the heartland
of the history of the Jewish people.

Speaker 4 (21:22):
We don't know.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
And at this moment in time, the cartoon resolution says
what's called.

Speaker 4 (21:26):
The three Nos.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
No peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel, no recognition
of Israel. And when that happened, I think what it
did is it was someone said this line. It's the
first time that somebody has lost a war and was
sued for peace and rejected it like they lost. They
lost that war. And so what I always come back

(21:50):
to is what ifs? What if that never happened?

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Speaker 2 (22:37):
This is the good life.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
So you would say, if we were now to fast
forward to today or two years ago, you would say
that if you were to pick the moment, if moment
one is both societies, both religions believe they have historical
claim to this land, the is moment two nineteen sixty
seven is moment to that moment that leads us to

(23:03):
where we are today.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
Would you agree with.

Speaker 4 (23:05):
That is for sixty sixty seven is huge?

Speaker 3 (23:08):
Okay, so you get tonight and then you said, over
time you give back the SINAI and uh, I.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
Want to clarify your language as I need to. It's
not I'm American with you American.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
Excuse me, I'm no.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
That's that's that's important because I actually want to ask
you some questions about that in a minute too. So,
so the sini is returned from from Israel as is Gossa.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Now there's this.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
No kind of but they're they're totally different. So what
happened was in a peace and and and this is
also really interesting in a peace agreement between Egypt and
Israel anwar. Sadat was an Arab leader who is a hero,
a hero. He flew to Jerusalem, the first Arab leader,
and at this point in time Egypt was the unrivaled lead.

Speaker 4 (23:55):
Leader of the Arab world.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
He flew to Jerusalem, and he's the one who said,
let's fin you're out a deal, let's make peace with
each other.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
It took a couple of years.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
But Jimmy Carter, together with Manachem Beagen, together with an
Oar Sadat then made peace. Egypt and israelv had peace
since the early eighties since what's called the first Camp
David Accords, and Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt, which
was a huge political decision and that happened the early ages.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yes, I vaguely know that.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
And then you had tell me quickly because I do
want to get to today in the nineties, when that
I said, the famous Yasser Arafat stands there. Bill Clinton,
tell me what happens with that.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
So that's Oslo, that's called the Ozlo Coords. That's between
the Israelis and the Palestinians. So remember Arabs and Egypt
different than Palestinians and all, it's all different. Israelis with
the Palestinians. They said, we are going to start recognizing
each other. The PLO, the Palestine Liberation Organization, which was
created by Yasarah Fatt before nineteen sixty seven. Well it

(24:56):
wasn't created by Arafat, but it was created in nineteen
sixty four. That led to in nineteen ninety three to
nineteen ninety five there was what's called the Oslo Accords,
which was a recognition of the PLO as the representatives
of the Palestinians, and that Israel would start a process
by which the Palestinians would have more autonomy.

Speaker 4 (25:18):
And that was called areas A, B and C A.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
I know vaguely what that stuff is all right, So
let's let's I'm I'm sure many other things happen, but
now let's fast forward to October seventh.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
There's an attack on Israel. How many people passed away?

Speaker 4 (25:38):
Twelve hundred people were murdered.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Twelve hundred people were murdered there.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
It was a music concert was part of it, but
there were other things, right.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
It was.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
Lots of attacks, it like nine to eleven times, and
lots of places.

Speaker 4 (25:54):
It was.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
It was the craziest thing. It was really crazy. And
it was on the seventh of October. Telve hundred Israelis
were killed. Two hundred and fifty Israelis were taken as
hostage to Gaza.

Speaker 4 (26:06):
This was led by.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Hamas and it was the worst day in Jewish history
that any of us could remember, and the worst day
in Jewish history since the Holocaust. And the reason it
was so bad was because this whole concept of Zionism,
which meant that the Jewish people should have self determination.

Speaker 4 (26:23):
That's what it means.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
The whole purpose of Zionism was either to end anti Semitism,
the hatred of Jewish people, or was to protect against
anti Semitism. On this day and the seventh of October
that all changed because now they saw that the Jewish state,
which is supposed to be the embodiment of Jewish self determination,
that they couldn't even stop Hamas from Gaza.

Speaker 4 (26:49):
And it kind of.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
For a lot of people maybe ended this dream of
Zionism that the Jewish people could ever be like anyone
else and exit history. In some ways, it's just like
an someone else's like me and you, Matt, like everyone
has that same What do you shatter the dreams?

Speaker 3 (27:04):
What do you see if you were to have Well,
let me ask you, is there any reasonable interpretation of
Hamas as anything besides a terrorist organization? Like the PLO
had political goals in addition to doing things that were awful.
I think it's fair to say they had political desires
and goals. Yeah, is Hamas anything in your mind but

(27:26):
a terrorist organization?

Speaker 1 (27:29):
No, they are nothing but a terrorist organization. But you
have to read their charter to actually see that. They
they quote the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which
is this famous conspiracy theory that the Jews are trying
to take over the world. They want to kill the Jews,
they want to make sure that the Jews don't have
the ability to govern themselves. They want to make sure

(27:50):
that the all of this region goes to Islam. To Hamas,
they I think forty eight. That is a moment in
time in which you can and should see multiple narratives
about how the Jewish state was created. And you have
to see Palasinian narratives and you have to see Israeli narratives.
That is a must sixty seven. Same thing like you

(28:11):
asked me, you got me one hundred percent. You got
to show Israeli narratives and Palastinian narratives. October seventh, twenty
twenty three is a moment that is not about multiple narratives.
It's a moment that showcased to the world that Hamas
showcase to the world. They got on their go pros
and they showed the world. They literally wanted to show
the world that we are here to kill all the

(28:31):
Jews and israelis not just the Jews in Israeli.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
So you would say Hamas's goal is to why is
to kill all Jews?

Speaker 4 (28:42):
I wouldn't say that. Hamas would say that.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Hamas would say that, okay, are there.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
I always hear when talking about the future of Israel
and palest On this talk of Hamas has to disarm,
et cetera. Is there Palestinian leadership outside of Hamas with
any authority or do you believe Hamas runs Palestine?

Speaker 2 (29:03):
The Palestine area.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
It's so complicated because there's the West Bank and then
there's Gaza.

Speaker 4 (29:08):
They're not contiguous.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
So Hamas has has oversight over Gaza, and the PA
has oversight over the West Bank.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
And what is the PA for people? The authority are?

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, exactly, so they have authority there. Hamas has a
thard in Gaza. Hamas wrested authority from the PA in
two thousand and six, two thousand and seven, which shocked
the United States of America. The United States of America
couldn't believe that when Israel left Gaza that it would
be governed by Hamas.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
So Gaza to you completely governed by Hamas?

Speaker 4 (29:42):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (29:42):
And I think do you think the people of Gaza?

Speaker 3 (29:45):
Because it's easy sometimes to say the people of a
country and think of the leadership, But I think, like
if if somebody looks in America, I wouldn't want them
to think that I agree with Donald Trump. So are
exactly are there people in Gaza? Is there a resistance
to No. Obviously there's good people, but is there a
significant resistance in gods.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, there's a significant resistance to to Hamas. And I
want to tell people some names that they should that
they should know about. One name is ahmedfu al Katib,
who is a great leader in the United States of
America calling for what's called realigned for Palestine, coming with
a moderate vision of what Palestine can and should look like.
Another guy named Samar Sina j Lawi, who is also

(30:30):
a Palestinian leader, Palestinian moderate uh. These are people that
people should learn about and know about because this idea
of what of saying all Palestine is Hamas is wrong.
It's it's it's actually awful to the Palestinians because it's
not the case that all Palestine is Hamas. The difference
between you, your analogy to you and Donald Trump and

(30:50):
Palestinians and Hamas, though, is that you are able and
I am able to cast a vote against Donald Trump
if we want to.

Speaker 4 (31:00):
We can. We could also not, but that's our choice.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
Hamas has not had elections, has not had elections since
two thousand and six two thousand and seven. During that
time period, they have not had elections, so over fifty
percent of gazas under the age of eighteen, which means
that none of them have ever voted in Hamas.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
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leather goods should last a lifetime. They make everything from bags, belts, walats,
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Speaker 2 (31:36):
You can check them out at.

Speaker 3 (31:37):
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Clayton and Kroum quality goods built to last. So all right,
So now you end up with the attack you mentioned

(31:57):
why it was devastating, Israel decide to you know, counter
as any nation likely would at that point, and we
get into this to this, to this war. So let's
talk about what happens in the next two years. Yea,
is it fair to say in your eyes that over
those two years, in defending itself and responding to the attacks,

(32:22):
that do you believe Israel went too far in things?
Let's start with that question, just broadly, do you believe
that Israel, as part of this went too far? In
some of their actions that specifically led to difficulties for
Palestinian people that they did not deserve.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
I am not a military expert, and I don't think
in a military sort of what militarily, I don't think
this way. I think educationally, as you know from hanging
out with me way too much, Matt. That's how I
think about things. I think about, well, what did Israel
do and what were they trying to accomplish?

Speaker 4 (32:57):
Did they do a good job? Did they not do
a good job.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
I'm not just talking and militarily though, I'm talking things
like humanitarian aid like those things. I mean bigger picture,
you know, was it right for them to do the
pager bombs and all?

Speaker 2 (33:09):
That's a different question.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
I'm just saying, like, when you're talking about the scenes
that Americans have seen, like me, do you think that
those were mistakes or bad acts by the Israeli government?

Speaker 1 (33:22):
I think that over when you have over sixty thousand
Palestinian people who are killed, that that is a tragedy.
That's an absolute horrific tragedy. I think that that's number one.
I also think that the question of what the Israeli
army and government were trying to accomplish over the last
two years needs to be questioned. Were they trying to

(33:43):
eradicate and destroy Hamas or were they trying to release
and get their hostages back? And would that need to
happen through the force that they exerted or through strength?
These are the questions that I asked myself. Were there
Israeli soldiers that what they're in war? Are they making
decisions that I would not stand by?

Speaker 4 (34:04):
Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Are they also making decisions that I've never lived through
and have no idea how to engage in something like this?
That's also true, I have empathy in that regard.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
Well, those are questions though known that I that, like Americans,
have to deal with with things that were done in
a rock and various things I'm talking about, though, there's
still a basic and again I feel free to educate me.
I only see what I see, right, and don't I
don't see everything. But from a basic standpoint, it looks
to me like when you're cutting off america humanitarian food

(34:38):
aid to two individuals that are not engaged in war
but that are literally starving. I mean, is that not unjustifiable?

Speaker 4 (34:49):
War? Is all to do something like that? That is horrible?

Speaker 2 (34:51):
Of course, so you're not convinced they did well.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
They well, we know that they brought in humanitarian aid.
God's a humanitarian Aid foundation thing, it's called for the.

Speaker 4 (35:00):
Name of it.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
But they brought in aid, tons of aid. But the
Hamas often stole the aid, which is sad and scary
to see. But if it is the case, and when
it was the case that Israel did not allow certain
aid to come in at different points in time, that
is not a positioner something that I would stand by.

(35:22):
I would say that is we have to make sure
that every person ought to get aid. Now here's here's
the challenge I want. I want everyone to hear this challenge.
Challenge number one is Hamas would Which is the craziest
thing when I think about this, is that an extreme
Muslim organization, extreme not modernisam extreme Muslim organization has hoodwinked

(35:48):
the extreme left in the United.

Speaker 4 (35:50):
States of America.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yes, to think that they're somehow on the same side
of things, That to me is the thing that is crazy,
how they've hoodwinked them.

Speaker 4 (35:59):
Because what Hamas.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
Does is they so you separate by the way Hamas
with the general idea of Palestinians in your mind.

Speaker 4 (36:07):
Absolutely okay, and you.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
Think I think a lot of Americans put that together.
You think that should not happen.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
No, we have to figure out a way to make
to free Palestinians from Hamas. We have to make sure
that Palestinians get the best education that they deserve, that
they have self determination as well, that they could elect
and bring in leaders who are moderate and want to
see a future of Israel and a future.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
Let me use that sentence you said right there, you
believe and I agree with this, we need to free
Palestinians from Hamas.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
Yes, what would you say too?

Speaker 3 (36:39):
If there was a person on the Palestinian side who
would hear that sentence and they go, do you also
need to free Palestinians from Israel?

Speaker 1 (36:49):
Well, I believe that that's a great question, Matt. I
believe that in Gaza, Israel left in the in two
thousand and five, two thousand and six, two thousand and five,
really fourteen, and the fear of Israelis is that when
they left Gaza, look at what happened.

Speaker 4 (37:06):
Eventually, Look we left, and look what happened.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
But you can understand how for some people, so we
were both just in South Africa, and we were reading
about the history of South Africa, and there were Afrikaans
who at the time in the early nineties were saying,
if we leave here, you know what's going to happen
if we let you all be in charge. And that

(37:30):
doesn't that didn't sit right to me in reading it,
and it didn't feel right, especially when I was there.
What is the difference between Afrikaans in the late eighties
and early nineties saying if we leave South Africa, you
know what's going to happen and what you just said.

Speaker 4 (37:50):
Well, a few differences.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
One is that the Afrikaans people moved to South Africa
a few hundred years ago. The Jewish people are tied
to the land of Israel for three thousand years the
most native.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
So a historical back to the historical.

Speaker 4 (38:03):
So that's number one.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
Number two is the South African people, is led by
Nelson Mandela, wanted to be a part of South Africa.
The Hamas wants to be apart from and doesn't want
Israel to exist.

Speaker 4 (38:16):
That's a major distinction.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
They are not saying we want to Hamas is not
saying let's distinguish them from Palestinians. Hamas is not saying
we want to be a part of you. They are
saying we want to annihilate you.

Speaker 3 (38:28):
So your problem is not with the idea of a
free Palestine. Your problem is with a free Palestine led
by Hamas, Yes.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Led by people who screamed kaibar, kaibar, and say referring
to the time when Mohammad got rid of and killed
so many Jews when they when if that's what they're
looking for, that is the type of thing that Israelis
will not ever accept.

Speaker 3 (38:51):
So if I was a Palestinian that was anti Hamas
sympathetic to what you're saying and say, I would say, okay,
fair enough, but you all still believe you have historical
claim to this land. How do I trust you that
if you still believe you have historical claim to this land,

(39:12):
as soon as I dearm myself, as soon as I
say okay, we're good, you're not going to at some
point come and claim historical claim on this land again.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
Well, I think that we should see we That's exactly
the point this is. People view the world very often
as a zero sum game. If I have everything and
you get to have nothing. If the Palestinian people, and
we should demand that this happens, that the Palestinian people
revamp their education system to say, hey, we're not going
to try to have from the river to the sea,

(39:47):
and we're going to make sure that they are not
trying to say things like in the Hamas Charter, which
says things that the day of judgment will not come.

Speaker 4 (39:55):
This is from the charter I just pulled this up.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Will not come until Muslims fight the Jews and kill them,
when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees, and
the stones and trees will say, oh, MUSLIMO, servant O,
there's a Jew behind me, Come and kill him.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
That's in the Hamas Charter.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
That's Hamas Charger Charter. That is what it says. So
that is very different. I think it's incredibly insulting now
that you're trying to be to Mandela to suggest that
what they're trying to do in the truth and reconciliation
process is at all no similar.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
To what I don't I don't believe that, but why
the reaction is very different.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
I get it. But there is a sense of you
all can't govern yourselves.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
There is a sense that the Palestinians have yet to
make sure that they are bringing in a government to
govern themselves.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
If they were, what if they democratically elected a Hamas
type government.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Then I would say that they're not democrats. They are
not democratically electing. A democracy is not simply democracy. I mean,
we we have this inn asmen. A democracy is not
merely the right of people to vote.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
That's true.

Speaker 4 (41:01):
It is also it's also free, a free press.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
It's also not murdering people because they are gay like Commastas.
It's not, you know, it's not wanting to kill all
Jews because they're Jews.

Speaker 4 (41:15):
Like. That's not what a democracy is.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
And I hope you know.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
I'm asking you these questions because I think he I
respect you to ask them. It's also kind of my style.
If I had a Palestinian or Hamas person, I would
be harder probably on them than I am used.

Speaker 4 (41:31):
I think these are the questions you're asking, is what
people are wondering.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
Yeah, so, so I want to go back to I'm
now going to use my because it two years ago
when we talked, I really.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Didn't have an opinion one way or the other.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
I have probably found myself being a little more sympathetic
to the Palestinian case two years later than I would have.
And but I don't know how much of that is propaganda,
right Like, so I don't really know how much is
it is whatever?

Speaker 2 (41:57):
So let me talk Israeli government.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
I get When I think of Israeli government, I think
of net Yahoo probably like a lot of the world.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
Thinks of American government.

Speaker 3 (42:06):
There that makes Americans they think of Trump to me,
net Yahoo just to me seems like a warmonger and
also has people around him who seem even worse to me,
who say some things that seem awful. Do the Israeli
people as a whole, you think agree with the net
Way net and Yahoo and his government either say or

(42:28):
do things? Or is it like Palestine where you're saying
there's this resistance to the Hamas head. I'm not equating
Hamas and net Ya. I'm just I'm not I'm not
equating them. But I am asking you, do you think
that that's a fair question?

Speaker 4 (42:44):
Yeah? I think a few things. I think I don't.
I don't know if you.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
Watch what's that show called about What's it called? And
you're not gonna admit if you do watch it, Matt,
the summer I turn pretty I.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
Do not watch that, although I hear there's two teams
and I know they go out each Yeah, I haven't
seen it now, So I.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Don't view the story of Israel Palestine as team jair
Orki Conrad.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
I don't do view that surprises me and also worries me.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
But go ahead, Okay, fine, how about this. I don't
view it as unc Duke. I don't view it as
Kentucky Louisville. That's not the way I can Entucky Alabama
if I got there, if I got it wrong there,
Red Sox Yankees, I could keep on going Lake or Celtics.

Speaker 4 (43:27):
They're not teams. We have to stop treating them like
they're team sports.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
And for you to say, hey, I'm a little bit
more Palisine than Israel, I'm like I was a.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
Little more sympathetic before.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
And you know why you're more sympathetic because you are
a human being and you care and you see the
pain that Palestinians have gone through over the last number
of years. The reason though, that you see that, though,
and this is kind of wild, is algorithmically, on TikTok
and Instagram and YouTube, it is being served up to
you in a way that you don't even realize this.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
And that's what Van Jones says.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
But then people on the there's people on the left
who would say, I was systematically, for years through the
mainstream media told a bit more pro Israeli. And by
the way, I don't know if either one of them
are right or wrong. I really don't know. But there
are most people who would say, look, I've been seeing
pro Israeli things for a long time.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
We shouldn't be team Israel or team Palisine. We should
be team positive future. For me, I agree with that,
And so the question is what do we all need
to do to make a better future for Israelis and
a better future for Palestinians. That's the question that we
need to be asking about BB's government. I think that's
that's also a very good question. You should you should
see what yeah, ear Lapede said. Yeah, ear Lapede, who

(44:46):
was on the opposition to Bib Natanyahu. When Donald Trump
flew to Israel to go speak at the Canesse the
day that the day of October thirteenth, which was the
day that the hostages were released, and you and.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
I talk fan day, and I will do want to
say something about that. You and I talked that day
and I think it was your birthday, right, wasn't it
your birthday?

Speaker 4 (45:05):
I turned forty and.

Speaker 3 (45:06):
I said, I wrote you to say happy birthday, and
you gave me such an interesting answer.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
You said, this is.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
Such a happy day, but you weren't talking about your birthday.
You were talking about the fact. And that said to me,
this hits gnome in a way that I don't know
that Americans even realized that it's your fortieth birthday and
the hostages being released was what your celebration.

Speaker 4 (45:28):
Was one hundred percent it was.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
And that's an example of this is not team Israel,
Tim Palisai, and this is about team humanity. I don't
know if there's a name that you that you heard
of that or that I don't.

Speaker 4 (45:39):
I don't know if any of.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
The people that listen to your podcasts have heard of
but her name is Rachel Goldberg Poland.

Speaker 4 (45:45):
Have you heard of her? I've not known, So Rachel Goldberg.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Poland has become I would view it as like almost
like the mother of the Jewish people. Her son, Hirsh
is an American Hirsch Goldberg and something that I used
to do American jew who moved to Israel. Well, she
taught me to do this thing where when Hirsh was
here's this young guy, super cool guy, super into music,
and he was abducted, he was his arm was blown

(46:10):
off and ultimately he was killed. Hirsh was a name
that I just said all the time. And when I
went to Starbucks and they asked me what like, I
always get ice brown sugar shaking espresso, oat milk chicken espresso,
and they asked me my name and they can never
pronounce no, I'm no one can. And I started saying
Hirsh as my name because I wanted everyone to hear
the name.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
Hirsh, Hirsh, Hirsh.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
Rachel, his mother is the most unbelievable hero that a
Jewish people have put us on BB.

Speaker 4 (46:37):
Rachel's the hero.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
And what she said is that you don't have to
be Jewish to carry you only have to be human.
If you have a pulse, you have a part in this,
in this story, and it's and I want.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
The pictures, by the way, the pictures that day of
the hostages being returned home. And I will also say
of the Palestinian and I'm sure some of those I know,
we're criminals.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Excepts.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
But the palast, the reuniting of the families that day,
both groups was very powerful for me from Afar it
really I thought it was absolutely beautiful.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
Can I ask you a question, Matt, Now, I know
that you're the interviewer here, but I'm really interested in
your like, like, yes, I'm not Israeli, but I'm Jewish.
Though Jews have very different perspectives on this, it's important
to know that as Americans, the one thing that the
best started Jews believe in is that the Jewish people
have a right to self determination, as do most Americans.
But my question to you is because you just had

(47:27):
something so interesting you as a human being just watching
these scenes. You saw the scenes of Israeli's returning to
their homes as similar to the Palestinians returning to their homes.

Speaker 4 (47:41):
Is that what it felt like to you? I?

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yes, it did.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
I saw as Granted I don't know the history of
what made those Palestinians be I know some of them
were in jail for whatever, but it was it was
basically on a human level of parents seeing their children again.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
Yeah that made me.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
Yeah, it was powerful to me, and it wasn't at
that moment about who had the moral equivalent. It was
just the human reuniting of people. But you also remember,
I come from a period of time where I set
with a person on death row as they were being executed,
and I see people as more than their worst acts,
and so like I come at it from maybe a

(48:24):
different way.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
I hear that, and that's why I wanted to ask
that question. There is a There is a mass difference though,
between Israeli's who were taken as hostage and Palestinian prisoners
who were taken for either trying to commit murder or
other sorts of.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Were they all are all the Palestines?

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Not the law No, no, not that all, not they all,
not they all? But that I just want to there's
a major difference. Can I reach you something that, yeah,
I think is really powerful. There's a new book that
just came out. It just came out. It's called I
have it here. It's called Hostage by Elie Sharabi.

Speaker 4 (49:02):
It's the first.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
Time that anyone wrote an account, a memoir of their experience.
He was four hundred and ninety one days in under
the tunnels and with hamas people and not just hamas people.

Speaker 4 (49:15):
And this is the scary thing. But families are not hamas.
And I just want to.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Read to you the first page because there's a powerful
It's powerful, he says. The five terrorists enter with weapons drawn.
We are in our pajamas. They come with uniforms. They
found us. Me and my wife, Leanne, our beautiful daughter's Noya,
and yeah Hell and our dog. We're in our safe room.
No intruders like these.

Speaker 4 (49:34):
Have we seen?

Speaker 1 (49:35):
The dog barks in distress. She doesn't like strangers. The
sound draws a terrorists fire, and the sound of their
gunshots ricochets off the walls. It's stefening. Leanne and I
jump into the girls, onto the girls to shield them,
checking they're not hurt, and shouting at the terrorists to
stop begging them, don't be afraid. They're applying Arabic and
demand we hand over our cell phones. I look into
my daughter's eyes. Noya is sixteen years old, Yeah Hell

(49:55):
is just thirteen. I tried to reassure them, telling them
everything will be okay. They don't scream, they don't cry,
they don't even speak. They are frozen in terror. I
will never forget that look of terror in their eyes.

Speaker 4 (50:06):
That moment.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Noya Yahell and Leanne were killed by Hamas coming into
their homes. And this is the homes of what's called
a kibuts, which is a left wing peace activist home.

Speaker 4 (50:18):
That's what they were, that's what they went to. And
then they made.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
Eli Sharabi a hostage for four undred and ninety one
days until he was released in a deal until he
was released.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
Yeah, that's I mean, that's very powerful stuff. That's in
awful and I guess go ahead.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
There's the imagery of that, of being in Aniki boots,
which is which is a commune, and being not in
the areas that Israel won in nineteen sixty seven, not
at all, being in the nineteen forty eight war in
that land. And the imagery of your children being taken
from you and killed and that you are being taken

(50:58):
as a hostage imagery that I think, Uh, that's it's
not You don't have to be Israeli and you don't
have to be Jewish. You have to be human to
care about that. And it's also true that the suffering
of the Palestinians has been horrendous over the last two years.
And yes, in some instances beyond that, we we have

(51:19):
to then figure out how to do Matt, this is
what our fellowship is to say. Okay, are we gonna
get mired in the hit?

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Now?

Speaker 1 (51:26):
I'm unpacking his early history. Guy, I believe that you can't.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
Your whole podcast is history. You can't say it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
Purfe of the history. But the purpose of the history
is how do you think about a better future?

Speaker 3 (51:36):
So let's talk about that, because we've got like ten
minutes and I do want to I do want to
get to that.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Yeah, so you.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
I that thing you just read would make it very
hard for many people to move past, right, And I'm
sure there are probably stories from people in Gaza of
some atrocity that occurred somewhere or they would feel the
same way. So so now going forward, we had this
deal or some type of deal ten days ago, do

(52:09):
you feel confident about it? I mean, obviously it was
good that the hostages got released, but do you feel
confident that whatever happened there can work going forward?

Speaker 1 (52:23):
What I feel confident about is that the Arab countries
around the world. Arab countries around the world are saying
that Hamas needs to disarm, that they're all in agreement
that Western countries around the world are saying Hamas needs
a disarm.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
So there's nobody still arguing they should be armed that, you.

Speaker 4 (52:40):
Know, nobody, nobody, That's not That's why I'm trying to
say this.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
The multiple narrative thing I deeply believe in about the history,
about how we see current moments and the like. There's
I don't believe that there's multiple narratives about Hamas.

Speaker 4 (52:52):
That's not.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
I don't think that's that's the case. But Donald Trump,
in his twenty point plan has one thing. And I
don't even know if he read the whole plan. Leause,
Donald Trump, but let's say he did.

Speaker 4 (53:05):
I just don't know.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
But in his plan, he says, he says this, let
me pull it up one second. Okay, here it is.
He says, an interfaith dialogue process will be established based
on the values of tolerance and peaceful coexistence to try
and change mindsets and narratives as Palestinians and Israelis by
emphasizing the benefits that can be derived from peace.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
That sounds like something they would have in our fellowship.

Speaker 4 (53:32):
Thing right, exactly right.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
And when I look at the twenty point peace plan,
that to me is everything put everything else aside. What
Israeli ashen Palestinians needs to do is their futures are
tethered to each other.

Speaker 4 (53:47):
They are tied.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
There are around seven to eight million Jewish people living
in the region of the Land of Israel, and there
are around seven to eight million Palestinians living there. That
is the case. So what are you all going to
do to figure out this future together? What future do
you want twenty years from now? And what are we
as Americans going to do to either make it worse

(54:08):
for everyone there or better for everyone?

Speaker 3 (54:10):
Yet I love what you just said, and I so
help me feel confident, all right?

Speaker 2 (54:17):
So if I you help me feel confident.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
If I thought that Noem was going to be the
person in charge of this for the Jewish people in
the Jewish State, then I would feel confident about one side.
But I don't really feel confident when I see the
Israeli leadership, and you and others have convinced me I
don't feel confident about Hamas being involved. Who are the

(54:43):
people and don't I wouldn't say, just get like just
names of nice people, but who are the people that
have an ability as part of the Palestinians Israel and
even America, Like, I don't believe Donald Trump read that,
but someone in his administration is doing this work. So
who is it that we feel like these are the

(55:04):
keys to future peace?

Speaker 4 (55:09):
I think that you said not names, don't.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
Say no, say names, but like literally, who are they? Like?

Speaker 3 (55:15):
Like, who in America do you think is the leader
in this? Who is the person that is helping write
those twenty points?

Speaker 1 (55:23):
I don't know who's behind it, but I know that
names like Steve Whitkoff.

Speaker 3 (55:27):
So that's when you hear a lot. You think he
and Jered Kushner are a big partner. Okay, so you
think that you actually would give them credit for their
motives in this or their actions?

Speaker 4 (55:38):
Yeah, you would, I would.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
And you did something with Jared Kushner, right, didn't you
do that?

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Josh Kushner his brother. I played him in basketball twenty
years ago. He hit a buzzer beater against me. He
beat me in a championship game. Whatever, let's not let's
not go but but but but I'm and I'm I
won't go into my politics, but I'm not a Republican.

Speaker 4 (55:57):
I'll leave it at that.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
And so, uh, Jared Kushner, you got to give credit
where credit is due. Jared Kushner is somebody who cares
about making peace. Steve Witkoff is someone who cares about this.
Steve what Coff lost his son out a point in time,
and that leads to a certain amount of empathy that
you could have for other people. And thank god, I've

(56:18):
never experienced anything like that. I believe that the leaders
of the United Arab Emirates matter a lot in this
and the Saudis matter a lot. The Saudi leadership cannot
be is it overstated or understated? And I never know
what's one understated, but it cannot be understated. Okay, thank you.
The Saudi leadership, they are they are taste makers and

(56:40):
in the Arab world, and what they say will ultimately
matter a lot, just like when Egypt did that. And
we need to not just you know, to not just
worship heroes, but we have to create heroes. And so
in the with with Saudi's they have to create heroes
on the ground. With Palestinians, they have to make it
worth it for Palestinian leadership to say we.

Speaker 2 (57:02):
Are financial, right, I mean that's probably a.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Financial it's financial, but it's also listen, in our world Matt,
it's not just about finances or anything like that. And
it's our world cares a lot about honor.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
Y yeah, right, and.

Speaker 4 (57:19):
So there has to be they have to we learn
this line.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
There has to be honor and peace.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
No, but there's a line that we learned I think
together and maybe we learned it together, maybe not that
be careful of the humiliated person. Basically the concept of
like someone who's humiliated will do things that are horrendous
and horrific. We have to be careful to know that
hurt people. Hurt people, so we have to continue to
build people up. We have to not knock them down.

(57:47):
I agree with that fully. And we have to leverage
and build up the Saudi world, the UAE world, to
celebrate the fact that has made peace with the UAE,
has made peace with Bahrain, has made peace with Egypt,
has made peace with Jordan, now has a decent relationship
with Syria, now that Hisbola has essentially been disarmed and destroyed.

(58:07):
Now hopefully we'll have a peace with Lebanon. It's with
the Palestinians that the world needs to build up educationally,
make it worth it for them. And I want a
fifty years from now tell a totally different history of
unpacking his early history that has self determination of Palestinians
and self determination of israelis.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
One last question, Yes, sir, and this is hard for
me as someone who does not like Donald Trump. Is
it fair to say that the uniqueness of the fact
that he has an economic, often self interested relationship with
Saudi Arabia the UAE and has this amazing desire to
be seen as some sort of world peace figure, which

(58:47):
I'm glad he has that desire, but I think.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
He does that.

Speaker 3 (58:51):
Maybe he was the only one who had the ability
to tell not Net and Yahoo slow down to get
the Saudis in the UA, but because of his business
relationship to listen. Is it maybe the case that, as
odd as it is, he's the only one that could
have done it.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Is it maybe the case that this is hard for
both you and me to admit and acknowledge.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
Maybe, But is it also true?

Speaker 1 (59:18):
I think that Donald Trump has in this instance has
proven to be and throughout his career in different ways,
a deal maker. And instead of focusing on values which
are going to not align, they try to focus on
interests and they've they figured out a way to do
that in this instance, let's see the next couples.

Speaker 3 (59:37):
So the answer is probably yes, as much you don't
want to say it, I don't probably want to say it.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
But is the answer he probably.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
They did a damn good job. They did a damn
good job here, and I'm so so happy. And I
think that one of the mistakes that we all make
in life is that we're not willing to root for
the person that we oppose. Let's root for someone who
does a good job of anything. I don't care what
it is.

Speaker 3 (59:58):
There you go, well, no, thank you very much. Unpacking
Israeli history. Give people if they wanted to try the podcast,
try one episode that you think would be a good
intro to it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
What would it be?

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
So lord, listen to listen. This is so me, Matt.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Listen to the sixth parterer on Palestinian state six parterer.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Yeah, I'll give you six parts. I don't know if
everybody else listen, but.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Listen to the first episode about Palasadian statehood, and then
if you're a hook, continue listening.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
Listen.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Man, thank you very much for doing this. Like I said,
I met you two years ago and uh along with
other folks in the group.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
But you as well.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
We've become good friends and I value your your opinion
and thank you very much for taking the time.

Speaker 4 (01:00:44):
Matt, you are a talented dude. I'm leaving it at that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Thank you.