May 5, 2025 • 52 mins
Get the stories from today's show in THE STACK: https://justinbarclay.com
Kirk Elliott PHD - FREE consultation on wealth conservation - http://GoldWithJustin.com
Join Justin in the MAHA revolution - http://HealthWithJustin.com
Try Cue Streaming for just $2 / day and help support the good guys https://justinbarclay.com/cue
Up to 80% OFF! Use promo code JUSTIN http://MyPillow.com/Justin
Patriots are making the Switch! What if we could start voting with our dollars too? http://SwitchWithJustin.com
Kirk Elliott PHD - FREE consultation on wealth conservation - http://GoldWithJustin.com
Join Justin in the MAHA revolution - http://HealthWithJustin.com
Try Cue Streaming for just $2 / day and help support the good guys https://justinbarclay.com/cue
Up to 80% OFF! Use promo code JUSTIN http://MyPillow.com/Justin
Patriots are making the Switch! What if we could start voting with our dollars too? http://SwitchWithJustin.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Buy from higher top Monroe Center in downtown Grand Rapids.
We're talking about what matters most to you in West
Michigan's joining a conversation now at six one six seven
seven four twenty four twenty four. At six one six
seven seven for twenty four to twenty four, it's West
Michigan Live with Justin Barklay on Wood Radio on Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh, welcome ahead, folks.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
What a day, dude.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
I'm starting to see some sunshine a little bit out there,
peeking and poking through the clouds a little bit.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I don't know how much we'll see today.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
Lots of clouds in the forecast, sixty for the high,
much of that over the weekend, and that rain on
Sunday and Monday. Well those flowers, the tulips, they got
to grow somehow, right, detail's coming up.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Speaking of the forecast.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
I'm gonna tell you it might be a little bit
of a bumpy ride this morning. We've got lots of
news to cover, a couple of guests that were expecting.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
To join us this morning. But I'm here to tell.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
You it's uh, it's gonna be a wild moment because
Officer Sure just took the stand.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
News Weather and traffic.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I'm the biggest stories of the day. We are talking
about what matters most in West Michigan and beyond. This
is the Big Three.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
Now see Speak three again.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
That trial is on the day five now murder trial
the deaths of Patrick Leoya and the former GRPD officer
officer Christopher Sure. We're told just took the stand earlier today.
Now the video feed that we've got coming out of
the courtroom is thirty minutes behind, but as soon as
(01:42):
that becomes available the up to date we're going to
bring it to you live on the air, So stand
by for that. First this are Big Three powered by
Heartlandhall Mortgage, JHM Linding dot com, Dave Gottilian the team.
Whatever you need to buy Refi Homemak with a lot
of credit. They'll say to thousands, good chances, like they
did for us and some of the other folks that
listen to this program.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
So make sure you're locked in.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
And reach out at Hhmlynding dot com and those stories today.
As I mentioned some of the biggest we're on day
five now of that trial and some of the testimony,
he would wonder why why would you take the stand?
A lot of times they advise against that. Sometimes we
just talked in the studio briefly here, and sometimes you
(02:28):
want to feel like maybe you want to do everything
in your power you can to make sure that you
in self defense.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Lay it all out on the line.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Yesterday, the Defense calling a GRPD firearms training officer, an
expert on exertion, exhaustion, we heard from experts on electrical weapons,
and one GRPD officer and the captain actually testifying yesterday
that the response shooting Patrick Leoya, which is the big
piece of this in the back of the head, that's
(02:59):
what cutting most of the back and forth, he said,
was not unreasonable. Part of the conversation that we'll be
following works all the way through this morning. Stand by
sure on the stand and we're going to talk to
to bring it the coverage rather coming up here and
just want to stand by National Security Advisor Mike Walt
(03:22):
stepped down yesterday. He will serve as the ambassador to
the UN, role that they have not been able to fill,
that supposed to be filled by at least Dephonic. In
the meantime, Marco Rubio will act in his place. Temporarily
left in the media will lose their mind, talk about
text messages and all the rest of it, and it'll
(03:42):
be just another day in Washington, in a big day.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
On Wall Street.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
So far, US payroll growth totally one hundred and seventy
seven thousand and April, defying expectations.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
The markets are loving it, they're digging the news.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
In fact, we're saying, right now, let me just check
if I can give you the actual live numbers as
we speak. Dawn's all bost up five hundred s and
p UP sixty eight, NASDAK two thirty six. The stories
that you won't hear anywhere else, that's just a couple
of them, and we're just getting started right here.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Don't go anywhere. It's a free for all Friday. I
love to hear from you too.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
If we get a chance to squeeze a phone call
or two in, we will jump on those phones. In
between coverage of the breaking news and more. That's all
coming up this morning. So yeah, like I said, stick
around a while. It'll be a blackle.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Justin now at six one, six seven seven four twenty
four twenty four At six one, six seven seven four
twenty four to twenty four West Michigan Live with Justin
Barclay on news radio Wood thirteen hundred and one oh
six nine a f M.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Welcome and our good friend of the phone line nine
from the Midwestern or the Midwesterner dot News. Kyle Olsen
joins us. Now, Kyle, appreciate you taking the time to
be here. It's a big breaking news this morning. What
a what a day.
Speaker 6 (05:06):
Yeah, a lot going on and that the the trial
that's going on of officer Sure is you know it.
It's to look at these sorts of cases there there
are no winners. But to me, the fundamental question is
when you have an officer who whose life is threatened,
(05:27):
what is it? What is the response supposed to be?
And so it's it's going to be interesting to see
how that continues to develop and what the ultimate outcome is.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Judge Christina Mems there we're showing on the screen right now,
presiding over this case, Prosecutor Chris Becker. A lot of
people ask that question, why did they even bring this case?
Pretty pretty like open shut in the view and the
minds of a lot of folks, this was straight up
flat out self defense. That's a that's a good question
(06:01):
that Jerry's going to have to answer, and the you know,
the breaking news that officer is going to take the
stand this morning. Boy, that's that's something else.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
And it's and it's I think it's so easy for
people who have not been in that situation. You know,
there was there's a professor who testify, for example, It's
so easy for people who haven't been in that position
to cast judgment to second guests to say what he
should have done. I mean, so few of us have
actually been in that where you have to make a
(06:33):
split second decision. And you look at that situation with
with Officer Shure. He's got he has the driver of
the car behind him. He doesn't know where that person is,
he doesn't know if that person has a gun, is
that person coming to attack him. It's a very volatile,
dangerous situation. And and the Grand Rapids Police Department was
sending people like Officer shir out by himself. They were
(06:56):
not doing two man patrols. So this is it's just
a almost sort of a perfect storm. And then of
course you had you had Loyola was running and is
he trying to run into a house. I mean, there's
just so many details here that it's easy to just
ignore those and say what he should have done and
(07:17):
not look at the reality of the whole situation.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
It's a it's certainly a very complex and nuanced story
and situation, and unfortunately, in the way the world of
media works these days, you don't get all of that.
You don't get the context to it all. You don't
get the truth and the facts of the case. A
lot of times you'll never really hear that discuss social
(07:42):
media clicks and all the rest of it seemed to drawn.
Speaker 6 (07:45):
And then you have you have you know, like Wood TV,
for example, sure is white, Loyola is black. Well, what
are they really saying there? I mean that everybody knows.
Well obviously, what would TV is getting it is there's
some racial element to this, so they throw that in
and it's just not These are just not good. You know,
(08:08):
these are not good situations. And and you know, regardless
of what happens, people are going to be unhappy. And
it's just but these these things have to be litigated.
You know, why was he charged with second degree murder?
I mean, there's just lots of questions about all of that.
(08:29):
But you know, this, this seems to be coming to
a head pretty quickly.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Yeah, we're praying for Officers Sure, We're praying for his family,
the family of all of the officers. We're playing for
the officers that are on the street throughout this the
peace would prevail and U and through it all, and
also the the family of Patrick Ley as well. I
am watching video right now that is delayed thirty minutes
(08:56):
and Officer Sure has his hand up and about to
take the elf kind. We're going to dip into some
of this here. We'll see what we get and I
may keep you on the line with us throughout if
you can do that.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Thank you, Honor Sure.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
Good morning, sir. Please state your name and spell your
last name for the record.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Christopher Sure, scch you are our.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Let me just start out. Do you enjoy speaking in public?
Not particularly No, in your life, throughout your life? Is
that something you don't particularly care for.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
I'd say public speaking wasn't one of my strengths. No.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Now you understand you have a right not to testify.
I do. Why are you testifying?
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I feel like it's important to get my sad story
out now.
Speaker 5 (09:44):
We're going to go into several topics obviously related to
this case here, but just backing up a little bit
in regards to your background and education. How old are
you currently?
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Thirty four?
Speaker 5 (09:56):
How old were you in April of twenty twenty two?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Thirty one?
Speaker 5 (10:01):
Where were you born Grand Rapids and where were you raised.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
The southeast side of Grant Rapids.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Do your parents reside in West Michigan here?
Speaker 6 (10:12):
They do?
Speaker 5 (10:13):
Are they in court here today? Do you have any siblings? Yes,
and they also present in court?
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Are you married? Yes? How long have you been married?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Ten years?
Speaker 5 (10:27):
And where did you meet your wife?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
High school? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (10:32):
Have you been together since high school?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (10:34):
So essentially high school sweethearts?
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Now where were you and your wife married?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
We're married in Kenya?
Speaker 5 (10:43):
And what brought you to Kenya?
Speaker 3 (10:45):
We were there on a mission trip a couple of
years after. Get a little bit Barfield drough in terms
of you you're where.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
They were married? Yeah? I think it goes to some
of this.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Excure from the prosecutor here doesn't want that fact out
there that they were on a mission trip in Kenya.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
It is pertinent information.
Speaker 5 (11:05):
It's just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Pron as to who he is and how he may
have responded to your wife's work?
Speaker 6 (11:15):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
What field?
Speaker 5 (11:16):
Does she work in?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Mental health?
Speaker 5 (11:19):
And you yourself. Did you go into public service as
a police officer.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
I did.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
It's fair to say both you and your wife went
into fields to help others.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
Did you attend high school here in West Michigan?
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (11:37):
And did you graduate high school?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I did?
Speaker 5 (11:41):
After high school, what did you do, I.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Went to college at Setona Heights University.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Did you graduate college?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I did?
Speaker 5 (11:49):
What year would that have been, approximately twenty fourteen. What
was your major or focused area of study in college?
Speaker 7 (11:57):
I majored in business with the focus in accounting and
a minor in criminal justice.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
Did you receive any scholarships in college?
Speaker 7 (12:06):
Originally I had an athletic scholarship and later got in
both athletic and academic scholarships.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Pretty good grades.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
What was your GPA?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
You graduated with a three point eight Okay.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
Now as far as athletics go. What sport did you
participate in college?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Track and field?
Speaker 5 (12:26):
And were you a short distance or a long distance.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I was a sprinter okay?
Speaker 5 (12:35):
After college? What did you do.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
After college? I gotten a job in the private sector
as an entry level accountant.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
And at some point did you go back to school
for continued career education?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (12:51):
What did you do next?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I went to Lancing Community College for their police academy.
Speaker 5 (12:57):
And why did you join the police academy?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I just wanted to do a job that was more filling.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
And what were your feelings on police work?
Speaker 6 (13:10):
Why?
Speaker 5 (13:10):
Why police work?
Speaker 7 (13:12):
It was a fulfilling job, voices, totally easy job.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I don't know if it was your person, Samarah Lynch,
very sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
Thank you. Why did you pick police work?
Speaker 3 (13:41):
It's never the same thing every day.
Speaker 7 (13:43):
It's to me, it was more filling than working in
an office and you got to help people.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
Now, what year approximately was that that you attended the
police academy and you mentioned LCC Lansing Community College. Yes,
is that academy? What's called an m Cole's accredited academy.
It is m Coles Michigan Commission of Law Enforcement Standards.
(14:12):
Is that you're understanding?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (14:14):
And I'm sure we could spend hours talking about the
m Coles Academy and the different topics, but just in general,
what did your m Coles Academy prepare you for?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I would say it gives you a foundation to continue
training as a police officer.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
And is your understanding that the basic standards trained at
LCC is consistent with all other m Coals accredited academies
across the state.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
That's my understanding.
Speaker 5 (14:49):
How long was the academy at.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
LCC approximately four months full time?
Speaker 5 (14:56):
Yes, And what's full time?
Speaker 3 (14:59):
It's forty hours a week.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
Are their variety of topics covered?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (15:04):
Approximately? How many?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
There's probably over one hundred different topics.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
And you give just a sampling of some of the
basic topics covered at the LCC academy.
Speaker 7 (15:14):
I'd say the main ones are criminal law investigations, use
of force, first aid.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
Now, use of force, that's a topic that's discussed going
all the way back to your initial m Coals academy.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
And does micals train you that you need to use
force at times upon subjects? Yes? And do they give
you instructions on how and perhaps when to use certain
levels of command or force?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
At m coles, do they discuss some of the realities
that police may encounter out in the field.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Is that always predictable? Now? Can you explain?
Speaker 7 (16:01):
I'd say most what we do out in the field
is not predictable. It's a dynamic environment and we train
in a controlled setting.
Speaker 5 (16:10):
Now at the m Coals Academy, is there always a
perfect way or a perfect a best way to handle
every situation or scenario.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I'd say we strive for perfection.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
Probably another sheet does m coals going all the way back,
do they talk about certain circumstances that may be be
on an officer's control that might affect their performance in
real life encounters. Yes, they talk about factors, and I'm
sure there's a plethora of them. But reaction times is
(16:46):
that something that's discussed all the way back at micals.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (16:50):
What do they teach you about reaction times?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Essentially action beats reaction?
Speaker 5 (16:54):
And how do they what's one of some examples of
how they teach that.
Speaker 7 (16:59):
One of the main ways is a seven yard or
a twenty one foot rule, essentially that someone could cover
that distance and harm you before you could react.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
And do they go through drills and videos and things
like that as well to demonstrate this? Yes, So even
back to Micle's academy, are you shown that there can
be factors that put a police officer at a disadvantage? Yes,
(17:34):
But even with knowledge of potential limitations, do you still
need to respond to calls? Yes, you still need to
enforce laws. Yes, are the situations that police encounter is
it always safe?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Typically not?
Speaker 5 (17:50):
But are you still required to march into a lot
of volatile situations?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (17:55):
What if you don't perform your essential functions? Even going
all the way back to them Academy, what are you
told if if you don't perform your central functions? What
can be some of the consequences of that, either I
or others could be injured?
Speaker 3 (18:09):
If not other consequences such at your department, such as cowardice.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
Okay, Now going back to them Coals Academy. Do they
use scenarios and simulations?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (18:24):
Has this meant what is your understanding of why they
do these scenarios and simulations?
Speaker 7 (18:29):
It's just to get us used to problem solving and
learning whatever they're trying to teach us at the time.
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Are these run out in the real life field or
are they in a rather controlled setting?
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Controlled setting?
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Now, at the conclusion of the Micals Academy, are you
given a rather lengthy and thorough examination to ascertain your
knowledge on these topics?
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (18:55):
And are you ultimately given an examination?
Speaker 6 (18:58):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (18:58):
I'm sorry. Are you aultimately required to attain a certain score?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (19:03):
And did you pass the m Coles Academy? I did? Now,
after the LCC academy. Are you a fully licensed police officer?
Speaker 3 (19:14):
You are not? You need to complete training department.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
While you were in LCC, did you start to apply
for jobs?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I did?
Speaker 5 (19:24):
And was one of those departments GRPD?
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (19:28):
And was that a rather sought after job back then?
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I'd say so?
Speaker 7 (19:33):
Why is that the opportunities the different departments if you will,
that you can get into.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Now, were you ultimately hired?
Speaker 6 (19:45):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (19:46):
What happens after you're hired in two GRPD?
Speaker 7 (19:50):
You go into an eight weekend house training where you
do more scenarios.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
And I know we've throughout the course of the trial,
you've seen the video montage.
Speaker 6 (20:03):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
What year was that video montage? From twenty fifteen? And
is that.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
You at the eight week GRPD academy?
Speaker 8 (20:13):
It is?
Speaker 5 (20:14):
And is that full time?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (20:19):
What's full time for that account?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
I'd say that was just forty hours a week.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
Now are the topics covered at GRPD? Are those identical
to MICALS or how do you compare?
Speaker 3 (20:30):
I would say they're more specific to Grand Rapids.
Speaker 7 (20:33):
Essentially, they're putting us in different scenarios and having to
solve problems the way Grand Rapids wants us to solve them, okay,
covered some.
Speaker 5 (20:43):
Of the same topics as far as traffic stops first aid?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 5 (20:49):
It's fair to say, Now do you cover firearms training?
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (20:56):
Are a lot of the concepts in firearms training similar
from GRPD to micals as far as the basic concepts.
Speaker 7 (21:05):
The basics, Yes, I just I think Grand Rabbits probably
more advanced than what the academy was.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
What level of force is firearm deployment upon a human?
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Deadly force?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Office is sure on the stand during the trial?
Speaker 5 (21:19):
In GRPD, do they take you through scenarios and situations
that police might encounter, as is exhibited on the video.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
There listening to wood Radio.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
The same scenarios as LCC or do they go through
quite a few more?
Speaker 7 (21:34):
Definitely a lot more at LCC or more or less
laying the groundwork, and probably more bookwork, and not as
many scenarios. I felt as though Grand Rapids we did
more scenarios?
Speaker 5 (21:45):
How many roughly probably thousands? We saw just a sampling
on the video of some of those scenarios. Yes, Now,
as you're instructed on those, are you trained that there's
only one way to effectively perform a task? Now, what
(22:07):
basically what are they what are they showing you there?
Speaker 7 (22:09):
Essentially, there's a parameter if you will to handle it.
It's there's definitely preferred ways, but there's definitely no person
is the same. So the way I handle something it's
going to be different than what someone else handles something.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Now does the g RPD academy similar to emicals. Do
they try to expose you to some of the limitations
that an officer may expose out in real life.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (22:40):
Do they discuss topics like human reaction time?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (22:46):
Now does g RPD Do they train you on on
weapons other weapons as well?
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (22:51):
What weapons were you trained down with g RPD?
Speaker 3 (22:54):
The taser?
Speaker 5 (22:56):
Any others?
Speaker 3 (22:59):
There? Issued firm and pepper spray the time.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Okay, Now going to the taser, you need a drink
of water?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
All right?
Speaker 5 (23:14):
Who instructs the taser training?
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Master taser instructor?
Speaker 5 (23:19):
And we've sat through experts on several experts on tasers. Okay,
so I'm not going to ask you about the working
all of the workings of the taser, but your taser
training does that go all the way back to the
eight week that they start to train you? Yes? Is
it lectures hands on? How do they instruct you the combination.
Speaker 7 (23:40):
There's definitely a classroom element scenarios, and they do a
voluntary exposure.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
We'll get to that in a moment here. But if
used properly by a trained person, what is the main
goal of using the taser on a subject to achieve
neuro muscular incapacitation? And can the taser be effective at
causing capacitation? Do you know that firsthand?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (24:09):
Now your voluntary tasing was that back at your eight
week then yes, mister mcfarlok could do the four of them.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Officer Sure is taking the stand in the trial the
death of Patrick Leoya and the defense now questioning Officers
Sure in this trial.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
We'll bring it the latest. This is News Radio with
thirteen and one O six nine FM.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
Does that appear to be your voluntary tasing session? Yes,
we've had this explain. But is it a rather controlled setting?
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yes? Is does safety seem to be paramount?
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (24:56):
The faces are blurred off, but what is everybody wearing
on their everyone's wearing safety glasses?
Speaker 5 (25:03):
Now, what is your understanding of why the voluntary tasing
might be beneficial to recruits?
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Just to know the effects of it, to know what
you would potentially be doing to someone else as well.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
But even though controlled, do you still have to sign
a waiver?
Speaker 6 (25:26):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (25:26):
And essentially what is the waiver telling?
Speaker 7 (25:29):
Essentially that waiver my understanding was relieving the city of
any potential liability from injury or death that the device
may cause.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Now, who's deploying the taser on you?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
There?
Speaker 3 (25:44):
It's a Master Taser instructor? Could you please play the video?
Did that feeling terrible? What did it? What did it
(26:06):
feel like? Just?
Speaker 7 (26:10):
Essentially, your muscles contract involuntary to their max capacity and
it's extremely excruciating pain.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
Now, can you compare it to anything else that you'd
ever experienced?
Speaker 6 (26:22):
No?
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Have you ever felt like any anything like that before
in your life? No? Now, after having the felt the
effects of the taser, would you volunteer to do it again? No?
But prior to being tased there, did the Master Taser
instructor give you some instructions on what was going to happen?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (26:44):
What did they tell you?
Speaker 7 (26:47):
They did a couple of different deployments and varying spread, and.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
He let me know how he was going to deploy
it on me and where? Yeah, And does that help
at all with any anngst that you may have probably
alleviated some Now, when you were tased there, did you
feel like you had much control over your body? No?
(27:15):
And we've heard this term, I think sometimes taking the ride?
Is that what they refer to it as is when
you're under the effects of the taser?
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (27:24):
How long does that ride last?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Five seconds?
Speaker 5 (27:27):
Do you feel during that five seconds that you have
the ability to defend yourself?
Speaker 3 (27:32):
No?
Speaker 5 (27:33):
What are you trained that can mean for a police
officer in the field, if someone fights them for their
taser and uses.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
It on them, they would get access to a fire.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
Now, in police training, do you discuss topics like the
officers getting disarmed of their weapons?
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (27:53):
Generally, what are you train to presume if a subject
forcefully disarms and officer of their weapon, they would use
it on us? The ride is five seconds? It is
how long do you think it would take for someone
to get your your firearm off your body and use
(28:15):
it on you?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Second, mister mcfire, could you please play that again?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Officers? Sure, on stand right now.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
During the trial in the death of Patrick Leulia, listening
to video of the taser training done at the g RPD.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
User continued to hold it or continue to press the button.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Well, so it's designed to.
Speaker 7 (29:00):
Be charged for five seconds, but you can hold the
trigger down or keep pressing the trigger to keep doing
additional five second cycles.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
And in your training are you warned not to continually
hold it or have repeated trigger pulls? On the subject,
what were you warned? Was the risk of prolonged or
continuous holds or deployments can cause cardiac arrest? And is
cardiac arrest mentioned in the exon materials that they go
(29:33):
through with you?
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (29:35):
What can be the result of cardiac arrest death? Would
you expect aknown and untrained person to know that a
continued or repeated ride could cause cardiac arrest?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Now?
Speaker 5 (29:51):
How far was the master taser instructure from you approximately
when it was deployed?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Probably two feet?
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Would that have particularly with that older model?
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Would that have been.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
Optimal probe spread? No? Can you just stand up a second?
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (30:13):
Put what where did the probes hit on you?
Speaker 3 (30:16):
They hit my I guess right leg, just the backside
of it. They were probably only that far.
Speaker 5 (30:24):
Apart, So that's fairly close, is that, folks? But watching
that video, was it only your leg that felt the
effects of that? No?
Speaker 7 (30:35):
I would say, it was my entire lower body, but
my arms there is more or less involuntary response, so
I didn't feel like I had control of my arms.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Do you feel like the taser did its job and
was able to incapacity to you?
Speaker 6 (30:50):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Now, just going back to this topic of a closer
deployment like that after your violence, Terry tasing did the GRP.
We've heard there was updates and models.
Speaker 6 (31:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Do you recall what model that old one was?
Speaker 7 (31:09):
I don't recall the names I know at the time
of the incident that we're here for. I had the
Taser seven, okay.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
And was there a new feature on the Taser seven
for close quarter situations.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Compared to the older model there?
Speaker 5 (31:27):
Yes, And we've heard was there a new cartridge?
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (31:33):
Yeah, I obviously don't know the exact degrees. Essentially, there
is a cartridge designed with a wider angle if you
will to achieve a greater we'll call it NMI.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
At close range.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
So if in this video you would have had the
newer Taser seven model and it was deployed at that
same distance, what may have been the affect the effect
on you there?
Speaker 7 (32:02):
It would I would assume a greater effects as probes
get further apart.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
Now, besides the cartridges, were you trained that the taser
has the ability to drive stune?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (32:15):
And how do you activate the drive stunt?
Speaker 7 (32:19):
Anytime the device is activated? Essentially, the drive stunt is activated.
It's the drive stunts the technique gets Yeah, we keep
keep mixing it up. Yeah, it's essentially the end of
the device gets activated along with the probes and wires.
Speaker 5 (32:41):
And then are you taught that you can drive that
activation and stun the individual?
Speaker 3 (32:46):
Correct?
Speaker 5 (32:47):
So it's the action is drive.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Stunning or you would get a greater en of mind
by doing that.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
And I'd like to go into that here, because under
what circumstances did g RPD train you to use the
drive stunt?
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Every time we would use the drive stunt, it would
be to achieve NMI.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
So it was that the only time you were ever
practicing the drives done on individuals.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
So to a g RPD officer, you're only using the
drive stunt in association with NMI.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
Mister McFarlane, could you please go to.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
This defense exhibit jay. This is the.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Eight week demonstration on the dummy. Just to confirm, is
this you and the video here that you'll see in
a moment. And this is was this back in the
eight week academy.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yes, could you please play that?
Speaker 5 (34:00):
Yeah, Chris, how far from that's a dummy? Correct, it's
not a live person. How far were you from the
dummy when you deployed the probes?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Foot?
Speaker 5 (34:14):
And what did you do after you deployed the probes?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
I moved the device to what would be the dummies calf.
Speaker 5 (34:23):
Where you trained that that's an acceptable distance to deploy
the taser. Yes, you've heard throughout this trial some question
of you should not deploy the taser at a closer
range under some different standards. This is how you were
trained that you could use the taser in that close
of quarters.
Speaker 8 (34:43):
Could you just play it again, please, I'd just like
you to focus on whole stream.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Able to see yourself getting the.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
Taser out of the holster. Yeah, when we've heard some
jury's heard some testimony on this already. But does it
take some action to get the device out of the taser? Yeah,
I'm sorry to get the device out of the holster.
Speaker 7 (35:23):
So this device, I would say, and holster combination was
significantly easier than what I was equipped with on the
day of the incident. This one was a little more
loose fit, so it's easier to actually get a snap,
which is kind of hard to undo at times, and
then a hood that holds the device in. So this
(35:46):
was a little bit looser fit, so it's a little
more functional, if you will.
Speaker 5 (35:50):
And when the Taser seven came out, are you provided
with new training materials on that?
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (35:55):
And was that a topic that was discussed in some
of those materials as far as that it has a
different type of holster.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (36:02):
Now let's just say on this.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Video, what if only one prob.
Speaker 5 (36:07):
Connected or made contact even with the dummy there, what
would the drive stunt do.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
There?
Speaker 5 (36:16):
What could the drive stunt do to help cause NMI?
Speaker 7 (36:20):
It would I guess, as they would say, complete the
circuit to create a They always, I mean, it's always
a third point of contact, but you can get that
another point of contact to create.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
The ENEMI officers sure on the stand right now, trial
the Patrick depth of Patrick Leoya.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
Occasion to actually use your taser on subjects out in
the field.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Defense is questioning the one many times just once.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
And where on the body did you deploy the taser
on that prior occasion?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Subjects subjects back?
Speaker 5 (36:56):
And was there was it a struggle with the individual
or yes? And how far away from were you from
the individual when you.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Deployed foot and a half?
Speaker 5 (37:06):
And what did you do after that?
Speaker 7 (37:09):
I believe I had to move the device to another
area on the subject to a chief enemie.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
And what did this assist you in the situation? What
were you able to do from that point?
Speaker 3 (37:25):
I was able to take the person into custody.
Speaker 5 (37:29):
Now I'm getting ahead of myself a little bit here, okay,
But in that prior use out in the field going
to April fourth, in an incident that we're here, on
the proximity of you and that individual in the prior case,
was that a very similar proximity as you were to
mister Laoya when you went to initially draw your taser.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (37:57):
On that prior taser occasion, are you required to notify
your department if you use force.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
That Yeah, any use of force, we have to notify
the department.
Speaker 5 (38:08):
And was anything found inappropriate about the way you used
your taser on that occasion? No? What did the department
actually do in response to your use of taser on
that occasions?
Speaker 1 (38:18):
You have to.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
Objector into who another relitation report them, what the department did.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
Or anything, is truly your role.
Speaker 5 (38:27):
Yeah, I think it's important to to go to what
his training was and what his department did, as far
as in response they didn't, uh, Yeah, to to solidify
his training and their practices and his experiences.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
All. I'll sustain that objection because I don't believe that
that's a good question. Was one confident in response.
Speaker 5 (38:55):
To the case, what's ingrained in your head from that
prior experience as far as the distance that you were
from mister Lyley, and whether that might be appropriate that
it was appropriate now during taser training or recruits and
(39:17):
officers when they're updates provided with lectures and materials from Axon.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
I'm sorry, can you say, are you provided.
Speaker 5 (39:25):
Or gone through with materials from Axon the manufacture?
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (39:30):
And what do you warned about the taser.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
That can cause serious boley in jereda?
Speaker 5 (39:36):
Now, are you trained on preferred target areas of the
body to use the taser?
Speaker 6 (39:40):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (39:41):
And how do they show you this in general? Do
you recall anything in particular?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
I think it's it's yeah, it's just a body and
it shows caution areas.
Speaker 5 (39:52):
And are you trained on areas to avoid them. Yes,
and we've heard this area sensitive areas. Is that something
that's discussed.
Speaker 6 (39:59):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:01):
What areas on the body? Are you trained to avoid
using the taser upon?
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Essentially the head, neck, general region and in chest?
Speaker 5 (40:14):
Are you taught to avoid either shooting probes or using
drives done on those areas?
Speaker 6 (40:19):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:21):
What are you trained can be the risk of taser
use on the eyes?
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Blindness?
Speaker 5 (40:34):
Now, are you also advised that taser use on some
of these sensitive areas can just overall cause serious injury
or death. Yes, So that's what you that's you the officer.
That's what you're being instructed directly from the manufacturer. Is
that fair to say?
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:55):
Now, going back to the eight week here, After the
eight week, what are your duties?
Speaker 7 (41:05):
I'm assigned to a field training officer. Essentially, we go
into a FTO program that's four months long. You're given
different training officers to grade your performance on a daily basis.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
And I'm sorry you said that's how long?
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Four months?
Speaker 5 (41:24):
Four months with an ftorect. Is that what they're referred to?
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (41:29):
And along the way they're evaluating and critiquing you. Is
that right?
Speaker 3 (41:33):
That's right?
Speaker 5 (41:34):
And over time do they start to give you more responsibilities?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (41:39):
Do you deem the FTO? Are they essentially an extension
of the training unit?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
There?
Speaker 5 (41:47):
Would an FTO generally be well versed in the rules, policies,
in the practices.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Of the department should be yes.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
At some point were you an FTO down the road?
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (42:00):
For how long? Approximately?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
I think three or four years?
Speaker 5 (42:04):
So did you essentially train other officers in the Grand
Rapids Police Department? Yes, on practices, policies and procedures. Is
that fair to say?
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (42:15):
Now going to April of twenty twenty two, how long
are you How long would you have been an officer
with GRPD in April twenty twenty two?
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Almost seven years?
Speaker 5 (42:24):
In April twenty twenty two, were you overall physically fit?
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (42:30):
Were you a little ways from your college athletic days
or did you maintain that?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
For I think it'd be fair.
Speaker 7 (42:37):
To say I didn't have the moment time to dedicate
to exercise like I did in my college chase.
Speaker 5 (42:43):
But in April twenty twenty two, what did you do
to maintain fitness?
Speaker 7 (42:46):
Just generically I've exercise five or six days a week,
whether it's cardio or weightlifting.
Speaker 5 (42:53):
Okay, anything marathons, iron Man anything like that. How about
MMA or competitive wrestling, anything along those lines. Now, why
did you stay physically fit?
Speaker 3 (43:06):
I just think it's important.
Speaker 7 (43:08):
We are required to back up our partners and assist
people on calls and on Unfortunately, part of our job
is sometimes we have to go hands on with people.
Speaker 5 (43:22):
During the six years of service up until April twenty
twenty two, do you have ongoing trainings? Yes, and just
give us a little synopsis or how often I'd.
Speaker 7 (43:33):
Say we have regular trainings that started to become more
regular with smaller blocks at that time, so we might
have been doing training maybe a couple times a month
on different topics.
Speaker 5 (43:47):
Are there policy updates over the course of that time, Yes?
And are you required to stay up to date on
policy changes?
Speaker 3 (43:57):
Yes? Is that something you've took seriously yes.
Speaker 5 (44:00):
Now, as a road patrol officer in GRPD in April
of twenty twenty two, were there certain crimes that were
more prevalent or perhaps more of concern for you out
on the road in that time?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (44:16):
What were they?
Speaker 7 (44:17):
I would say, in the city at that time, we
had had to worry about gun violence, drugs, and stolen cars.
Speaker 5 (44:29):
Now, we're going to April four of twenty twenty two.
All right, ye, what shift were you working that day?
Speaker 3 (44:36):
First shift?
Speaker 5 (44:38):
What time does first shift run?
Speaker 3 (44:41):
Mine ran from five thirty in the morning to five
thirty at night, So.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
You've got twelve hours that you're essentially out on the road.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (44:50):
How many days a week generally were you working twelve
hour shift?
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Well, it kind of varies. I mean some weeks.
Speaker 7 (44:59):
So one week it's Monday Tuesday, and you have Wednesday
Thursday off, and you work Friday, Saturday Sunday. The next
week you work Wednesday Thursday and that's it.
Speaker 5 (45:07):
So it's all over.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
It's all over the place, okay, and then over time
in between there.
Speaker 5 (45:13):
All right, Now for a five thirty am shift, what
time would you what time did you would you have
woken up on April.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Four of twenty twenty two between four and four thirty?
Speaker 5 (45:25):
Any normal routine in the morning for you just shower, shave, Okay?
What time did you normally arrive to g RPD.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Sometime around five?
Speaker 5 (45:39):
What was your normal routine when you arrive down at
the station.
Speaker 7 (45:43):
Just get into uniform and then go to the room
that we had lineup at and go over wanted subjects,
and we also had a sheet for stolen cars.
Speaker 5 (45:56):
Now, what time would you actually for a five What
time would you actually get out on the road.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Oh, probably closer to six.
Speaker 5 (46:07):
And it's been three years, okay, So I'm not asking
you to remember every bit of your morning there, but
do you remember in general what you had done during
your shift prior to this episode here?
Speaker 7 (46:19):
That morning, I believe I responded to just a basic
alarm at some point, and.
Speaker 6 (46:26):
I know one of the.
Speaker 7 (46:28):
Issues I had in my service area was speeding complaints
in a school zone and the area of thirty six
in kilma Zoo.
Speaker 5 (46:38):
No.
Speaker 7 (46:38):
I went down there and realized that it was a
spring break, it was pretty slow, so there wasn't many
cars to stop in that area at that time. I
know I reviewed policy here and there and eventually ended
up in the area of kelm Zoom and Fuller.
Speaker 5 (46:56):
What were the weather conditions that morning?
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Cold, wet, rainy, the rain snowmacks overall.
Speaker 5 (47:04):
Is it a busy morning now around the roads or was.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
It slow or I recall it being pretty slow?
Speaker 5 (47:13):
Now you mentioned Kelmazoo. You eventually found yourself over in
the area of Kelmazoo Avenue on in Fuller Avenue, correct,
And is that on the southeast side of Grand Rapids?
Speaker 3 (47:27):
It is?
Speaker 5 (47:28):
Are you familiar with that area?
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Very familiar? Why is that I was assigning that area
on night shift for six years?
Speaker 4 (47:46):
Officers sure on the stand during his trial? Did you
and the death of Patrick le Oil? You're listening to
news radio with thirteen and one oh six nine FM.
Speaker 5 (47:54):
The defense questions explains to us here as far as
when you first observe that.
Speaker 7 (48:02):
I was traveling south on Kelma Zoo approaching the area
of Dickinson in Orville, I noticed the vehicle was traveling slowly,
and as I had gotten fairly close to it, made
an abrupt right hand turn onto I believe Orville. At
that point I was able to run the license plate
and I continued south on Kelma Zoo.
Speaker 5 (48:26):
Now what does it mean to run a license plate?
Speaker 7 (48:30):
Essentially, we have a computer right next to us, and
we're able to enter the license plate information into giving
us access to Lean Law Enforcement Information Network and Secretary
of State information.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
And running license plates? Is that a common practice for
you out on patrol?
Speaker 3 (48:50):
Every day?
Speaker 5 (48:51):
It is? How often would you say you run license plates?
Speaker 7 (48:55):
Depending on the day how busy I am. I could
run out to thirty license plates a day.
Speaker 5 (49:00):
Kay when you ran the license plate? Where? Where was?
Where were you behind the vehicle?
Speaker 3 (49:06):
Then it was?
Speaker 5 (49:07):
Were you ever able to even see the occupants inside
of the vehicle? No? So the vehicle? Uh, mister mcfarm,
could you please pull up that?
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Chris? Can I just approach you here?
Speaker 6 (49:25):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Where can I approach the witness? I just wanna get
a laser point? I won't try that. Yes?
Speaker 5 (49:39):
So what what direction were.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
Both please.
Speaker 8 (49:47):
See?
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Says a que at the corner?
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Is it a tim a Q?
Speaker 3 (49:53):
Yes? I'm sorry? Uh, this is dependent's proposed? Or is
it a Q? Okay? Q was already admitted.
Speaker 5 (50:00):
Okay, okay, so it doesn't says it is huge?
Speaker 3 (50:03):
Yes, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (50:06):
So Chris, just to help us understand this a little bit,
what direction were you driving and whereabouts were you when
you first observed the yield?
Speaker 3 (50:16):
Yield? Uh?
Speaker 7 (50:19):
In this area and I believe those right around here
kelma zoo in Orville when I had gotten fairly close
to it.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
And just to confirm it, north is going up in
south is is going downwards? You're on the map, correct,
So you're if I have.
Speaker 5 (50:40):
A right, you were traveling south in the ultima was
traveling south in front of you.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
Correct, the ultima turned where believe it was Orville? Alright,
So they made a right hand turn to head west
on Orville. And as it's turning, you type in.
Speaker 5 (51:01):
The plate and if where do you continue to employ
your typing in the plate?
Speaker 7 (51:06):
I continued south on Kalma Zook And.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
Just tell me as far as running a plate, what
what's the norm of this system produce h You'll type
it in into.
Speaker 7 (51:18):
A little box and you usually experience some type of delay. So,
depending on the Wi Fi connection at the time.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
At some point do you get a response from that?
I did the search, and what does that indicate you?
Speaker 7 (51:37):
I had gotten a response indicating that the license plate
that I had ran didn't match the vehicle that i'd
just seen.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
Essentially, now a plate did does not match a vehicle
is at a law violation?
Speaker 5 (51:53):
It is? Is it a legal justification to stop a vehic?
It is?
Speaker 3 (52:01):
So what did you do next? Well, I had.
Speaker 7 (52:06):
Gotten a response prior to reaching Griggs. When I saw
that I had gotten a response indicating an improper plate,
I'd turned right onto Griggs
Speaker 3 (52:19):
And
Buy from higher top Monroe Center in downtown Grand Rapids.
We're talking about what matters most to you in West
Michigan's joining a conversation now at six one six seven
seven four twenty four twenty four. At six one six
seven seven for twenty four to twenty four, it's West
Michigan Live with Justin Barklay on Wood Radio on Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh, welcome ahead, folks.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
What a day, dude.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
I'm starting to see some sunshine a little bit out there,
peeking and poking through the clouds a little bit.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I don't know how much we'll see today.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
Lots of clouds in the forecast, sixty for the high,
much of that over the weekend, and that rain on
Sunday and Monday. Well those flowers, the tulips, they got
to grow somehow, right, detail's coming up.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Speaking of the forecast.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
I'm gonna tell you it might be a little bit
of a bumpy ride this morning. We've got lots of
news to cover, a couple of guests that were expecting.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
To join us this morning. But I'm here to tell.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
You it's uh, it's gonna be a wild moment because
Officer Sure just took the stand.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
News Weather and traffic.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I'm the biggest stories of the day. We are talking
about what matters most in West Michigan and beyond. This
is the Big Three.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
Now see Speak three again.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
That trial is on the day five now murder trial
the deaths of Patrick Leoya and the former GRPD officer
officer Christopher Sure. We're told just took the stand earlier today.
Now the video feed that we've got coming out of
the courtroom is thirty minutes behind, but as soon as
(01:42):
that becomes available the up to date we're going to
bring it to you live on the air, So stand
by for that. First this are Big Three powered by
Heartlandhall Mortgage, JHM Linding dot com, Dave Gottilian the team.
Whatever you need to buy Refi Homemak with a lot
of credit. They'll say to thousands, good chances, like they
did for us and some of the other folks that
listen to this program.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
So make sure you're locked in.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
And reach out at Hhmlynding dot com and those stories today.
As I mentioned some of the biggest we're on day
five now of that trial and some of the testimony,
he would wonder why why would you take the stand?
A lot of times they advise against that. Sometimes we
just talked in the studio briefly here, and sometimes you
(02:28):
want to feel like maybe you want to do everything
in your power you can to make sure that you
in self defense.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Lay it all out on the line.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Yesterday, the Defense calling a GRPD firearms training officer, an
expert on exertion, exhaustion, we heard from experts on electrical weapons,
and one GRPD officer and the captain actually testifying yesterday
that the response shooting Patrick Leoya, which is the big
piece of this in the back of the head, that's
(02:59):
what cutting most of the back and forth, he said,
was not unreasonable. Part of the conversation that we'll be
following works all the way through this morning. Stand by
sure on the stand and we're going to talk to
to bring it the coverage rather coming up here and
just want to stand by National Security Advisor Mike Walt
(03:22):
stepped down yesterday. He will serve as the ambassador to
the UN, role that they have not been able to fill,
that supposed to be filled by at least Dephonic. In
the meantime, Marco Rubio will act in his place. Temporarily
left in the media will lose their mind, talk about
text messages and all the rest of it, and it'll
(03:42):
be just another day in Washington, in a big day.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
On Wall Street.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
So far, US payroll growth totally one hundred and seventy
seven thousand and April, defying expectations.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
The markets are loving it, they're digging the news.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
In fact, we're saying, right now, let me just check
if I can give you the actual live numbers as
we speak. Dawn's all bost up five hundred s and
p UP sixty eight, NASDAK two thirty six. The stories
that you won't hear anywhere else, that's just a couple
of them, and we're just getting started right here.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Don't go anywhere. It's a free for all Friday. I
love to hear from you too.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
If we get a chance to squeeze a phone call
or two in, we will jump on those phones. In
between coverage of the breaking news and more. That's all
coming up this morning. So yeah, like I said, stick
around a while. It'll be a blackle.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Justin now at six one, six seven seven four twenty
four twenty four At six one, six seven seven four
twenty four to twenty four West Michigan Live with Justin
Barclay on news radio Wood thirteen hundred and one oh
six nine a f M.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Welcome and our good friend of the phone line nine
from the Midwestern or the Midwesterner dot News. Kyle Olsen
joins us. Now, Kyle, appreciate you taking the time to
be here. It's a big breaking news this morning. What
a what a day.
Speaker 6 (05:06):
Yeah, a lot going on and that the the trial
that's going on of officer Sure is you know it.
It's to look at these sorts of cases there there
are no winners. But to me, the fundamental question is
when you have an officer who whose life is threatened,
(05:27):
what is it? What is the response supposed to be?
And so it's it's going to be interesting to see
how that continues to develop and what the ultimate outcome is.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Judge Christina Mems there we're showing on the screen right now,
presiding over this case, Prosecutor Chris Becker. A lot of
people ask that question, why did they even bring this case?
Pretty pretty like open shut in the view and the
minds of a lot of folks, this was straight up
flat out self defense. That's a that's a good question
(06:01):
that Jerry's going to have to answer, and the you know,
the breaking news that officer is going to take the
stand this morning. Boy, that's that's something else.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
And it's and it's I think it's so easy for
people who have not been in that situation. You know,
there was there's a professor who testify, for example, It's
so easy for people who haven't been in that position
to cast judgment to second guests to say what he
should have done. I mean, so few of us have
actually been in that where you have to make a
(06:33):
split second decision. And you look at that situation with
with Officer Shure. He's got he has the driver of
the car behind him. He doesn't know where that person is,
he doesn't know if that person has a gun, is
that person coming to attack him. It's a very volatile,
dangerous situation. And and the Grand Rapids Police Department was
sending people like Officer shir out by himself. They were
(06:56):
not doing two man patrols. So this is it's just
a almost sort of a perfect storm. And then of
course you had you had Loyola was running and is
he trying to run into a house. I mean, there's
just so many details here that it's easy to just
ignore those and say what he should have done and
(07:17):
not look at the reality of the whole situation.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
It's a it's certainly a very complex and nuanced story
and situation, and unfortunately, in the way the world of
media works these days, you don't get all of that.
You don't get the context to it all. You don't
get the truth and the facts of the case. A
lot of times you'll never really hear that discuss social
(07:42):
media clicks and all the rest of it seemed to drawn.
Speaker 6 (07:45):
And then you have you have you know, like Wood TV,
for example, sure is white, Loyola is black. Well, what
are they really saying there? I mean that everybody knows.
Well obviously, what would TV is getting it is there's
some racial element to this, so they throw that in
and it's just not These are just not good. You know,
(08:08):
these are not good situations. And and you know, regardless
of what happens, people are going to be unhappy. And
it's just but these these things have to be litigated.
You know, why was he charged with second degree murder?
I mean, there's just lots of questions about all of that.
(08:29):
But you know, this, this seems to be coming to
a head pretty quickly.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Yeah, we're praying for Officers Sure, We're praying for his family,
the family of all of the officers. We're playing for
the officers that are on the street throughout this the
peace would prevail and U and through it all, and
also the the family of Patrick Ley as well. I
am watching video right now that is delayed thirty minutes
(08:56):
and Officer Sure has his hand up and about to
take the elf kind. We're going to dip into some
of this here. We'll see what we get and I
may keep you on the line with us throughout if
you can do that.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Thank you, Honor Sure.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
Good morning, sir. Please state your name and spell your
last name for the record.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Christopher Sure, scch you are our.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Let me just start out. Do you enjoy speaking in public?
Not particularly No, in your life, throughout your life? Is
that something you don't particularly care for.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
I'd say public speaking wasn't one of my strengths. No.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Now you understand you have a right not to testify.
I do. Why are you testifying?
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I feel like it's important to get my sad story
out now.
Speaker 5 (09:44):
We're going to go into several topics obviously related to
this case here, but just backing up a little bit
in regards to your background and education. How old are
you currently?
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Thirty four?
Speaker 5 (09:56):
How old were you in April of twenty twenty two?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Thirty one?
Speaker 5 (10:01):
Where were you born Grand Rapids and where were you raised.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
The southeast side of Grant Rapids.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Do your parents reside in West Michigan here?
Speaker 6 (10:12):
They do?
Speaker 5 (10:13):
Are they in court here today? Do you have any siblings? Yes,
and they also present in court?
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Are you married? Yes? How long have you been married?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Ten years?
Speaker 5 (10:27):
And where did you meet your wife?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
High school? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (10:32):
Have you been together since high school?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (10:34):
So essentially high school sweethearts?
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Now where were you and your wife married?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
We're married in Kenya?
Speaker 5 (10:43):
And what brought you to Kenya?
Speaker 3 (10:45):
We were there on a mission trip a couple of
years after. Get a little bit Barfield drough in terms
of you you're where.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
They were married? Yeah? I think it goes to some
of this.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Excure from the prosecutor here doesn't want that fact out
there that they were on a mission trip in Kenya.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
It is pertinent information.
Speaker 5 (11:05):
It's just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Pron as to who he is and how he may
have responded to your wife's work?
Speaker 6 (11:15):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
What field?
Speaker 5 (11:16):
Does she work in?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Mental health?
Speaker 5 (11:19):
And you yourself. Did you go into public service as
a police officer.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
I did.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
It's fair to say both you and your wife went
into fields to help others.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
Did you attend high school here in West Michigan?
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (11:37):
And did you graduate high school?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I did?
Speaker 5 (11:41):
After high school, what did you do, I.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Went to college at Setona Heights University.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Did you graduate college?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I did?
Speaker 5 (11:49):
What year would that have been, approximately twenty fourteen. What
was your major or focused area of study in college?
Speaker 7 (11:57):
I majored in business with the focus in accounting and
a minor in criminal justice.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
Did you receive any scholarships in college?
Speaker 7 (12:06):
Originally I had an athletic scholarship and later got in
both athletic and academic scholarships.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Pretty good grades.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
What was your GPA?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
You graduated with a three point eight Okay.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
Now as far as athletics go. What sport did you
participate in college?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Track and field?
Speaker 5 (12:26):
And were you a short distance or a long distance.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I was a sprinter okay?
Speaker 5 (12:35):
After college? What did you do.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
After college? I gotten a job in the private sector
as an entry level accountant.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
And at some point did you go back to school
for continued career education?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (12:51):
What did you do next?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I went to Lancing Community College for their police academy.
Speaker 5 (12:57):
And why did you join the police academy?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I just wanted to do a job that was more filling.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
And what were your feelings on police work?
Speaker 6 (13:10):
Why?
Speaker 5 (13:10):
Why police work?
Speaker 7 (13:12):
It was a fulfilling job, voices, totally easy job.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I don't know if it was your person, Samarah Lynch,
very sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
Thank you. Why did you pick police work?
Speaker 3 (13:41):
It's never the same thing every day.
Speaker 7 (13:43):
It's to me, it was more filling than working in
an office and you got to help people.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
Now, what year approximately was that that you attended the
police academy and you mentioned LCC Lansing Community College. Yes,
is that academy? What's called an m Cole's accredited academy.
It is m Coles Michigan Commission of Law Enforcement Standards.
(14:12):
Is that you're understanding?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (14:14):
And I'm sure we could spend hours talking about the
m Coles Academy and the different topics, but just in general,
what did your m Coles Academy prepare you for?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I would say it gives you a foundation to continue
training as a police officer.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
And is your understanding that the basic standards trained at
LCC is consistent with all other m Coals accredited academies
across the state.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
That's my understanding.
Speaker 5 (14:49):
How long was the academy at.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
LCC approximately four months full time?
Speaker 5 (14:56):
Yes, And what's full time?
Speaker 3 (14:59):
It's forty hours a week.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
Are their variety of topics covered?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (15:04):
Approximately? How many?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
There's probably over one hundred different topics.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
And you give just a sampling of some of the
basic topics covered at the LCC academy.
Speaker 7 (15:14):
I'd say the main ones are criminal law investigations, use
of force, first aid.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
Now, use of force, that's a topic that's discussed going
all the way back to your initial m Coals academy.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
And does micals train you that you need to use
force at times upon subjects? Yes? And do they give
you instructions on how and perhaps when to use certain
levels of command or force?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
At m coles, do they discuss some of the realities
that police may encounter out in the field.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Is that always predictable? Now? Can you explain?
Speaker 7 (16:01):
I'd say most what we do out in the field
is not predictable. It's a dynamic environment and we train
in a controlled setting.
Speaker 5 (16:10):
Now at the m Coals Academy, is there always a
perfect way or a perfect a best way to handle
every situation or scenario.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I'd say we strive for perfection.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
Probably another sheet does m coals going all the way back,
do they talk about certain circumstances that may be be
on an officer's control that might affect their performance in
real life encounters. Yes, they talk about factors, and I'm
sure there's a plethora of them. But reaction times is
(16:46):
that something that's discussed all the way back at micals.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (16:50):
What do they teach you about reaction times?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Essentially action beats reaction?
Speaker 5 (16:54):
And how do they what's one of some examples of
how they teach that.
Speaker 7 (16:59):
One of the main ways is a seven yard or
a twenty one foot rule, essentially that someone could cover
that distance and harm you before you could react.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
And do they go through drills and videos and things
like that as well to demonstrate this? Yes, So even
back to Micle's academy, are you shown that there can
be factors that put a police officer at a disadvantage? Yes,
(17:34):
But even with knowledge of potential limitations, do you still
need to respond to calls? Yes, you still need to
enforce laws. Yes, are the situations that police encounter is
it always safe?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Typically not?
Speaker 5 (17:50):
But are you still required to march into a lot
of volatile situations?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (17:55):
What if you don't perform your essential functions? Even going
all the way back to them Academy, what are you
told if if you don't perform your central functions? What
can be some of the consequences of that, either I
or others could be injured?
Speaker 3 (18:09):
If not other consequences such at your department, such as cowardice.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
Okay, Now going back to them Coals Academy. Do they
use scenarios and simulations?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (18:24):
Has this meant what is your understanding of why they
do these scenarios and simulations?
Speaker 7 (18:29):
It's just to get us used to problem solving and
learning whatever they're trying to teach us at the time.
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Are these run out in the real life field or
are they in a rather controlled setting?
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Controlled setting?
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Now, at the conclusion of the Micals Academy, are you
given a rather lengthy and thorough examination to ascertain your
knowledge on these topics?
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (18:55):
And are you ultimately given an examination?
Speaker 6 (18:58):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (18:58):
I'm sorry. Are you aultimately required to attain a certain score?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (19:03):
And did you pass the m Coles Academy? I did? Now,
after the LCC academy. Are you a fully licensed police officer?
Speaker 3 (19:14):
You are not? You need to complete training department.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
While you were in LCC, did you start to apply
for jobs?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I did?
Speaker 5 (19:24):
And was one of those departments GRPD?
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (19:28):
And was that a rather sought after job back then?
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I'd say so?
Speaker 7 (19:33):
Why is that the opportunities the different departments if you will,
that you can get into.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Now, were you ultimately hired?
Speaker 6 (19:45):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (19:46):
What happens after you're hired in two GRPD?
Speaker 7 (19:50):
You go into an eight weekend house training where you
do more scenarios.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
And I know we've throughout the course of the trial,
you've seen the video montage.
Speaker 6 (20:03):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
What year was that video montage? From twenty fifteen? And
is that.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
You at the eight week GRPD academy?
Speaker 8 (20:13):
It is?
Speaker 5 (20:14):
And is that full time?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (20:19):
What's full time for that account?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
I'd say that was just forty hours a week.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
Now are the topics covered at GRPD? Are those identical
to MICALS or how do you compare?
Speaker 3 (20:30):
I would say they're more specific to Grand Rapids.
Speaker 7 (20:33):
Essentially, they're putting us in different scenarios and having to
solve problems the way Grand Rapids wants us to solve them, okay,
covered some.
Speaker 5 (20:43):
Of the same topics as far as traffic stops first aid?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 5 (20:49):
It's fair to say, Now do you cover firearms training?
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (20:56):
Are a lot of the concepts in firearms training similar
from GRPD to micals as far as the basic concepts.
Speaker 7 (21:05):
The basics, Yes, I just I think Grand Rabbits probably
more advanced than what the academy was.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
What level of force is firearm deployment upon a human?
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Deadly force?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Office is sure on the stand during the trial?
Speaker 5 (21:19):
In GRPD, do they take you through scenarios and situations
that police might encounter, as is exhibited on the video.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
There listening to wood Radio.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
The same scenarios as LCC or do they go through
quite a few more?
Speaker 7 (21:34):
Definitely a lot more at LCC or more or less
laying the groundwork, and probably more bookwork, and not as
many scenarios. I felt as though Grand Rapids we did
more scenarios?
Speaker 5 (21:45):
How many roughly probably thousands? We saw just a sampling
on the video of some of those scenarios. Yes, Now,
as you're instructed on those, are you trained that there's
only one way to effectively perform a task? Now, what
(22:07):
basically what are they what are they showing you there?
Speaker 7 (22:09):
Essentially, there's a parameter if you will to handle it.
It's there's definitely preferred ways, but there's definitely no person
is the same. So the way I handle something it's
going to be different than what someone else handles something.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Now does the g RPD academy similar to emicals. Do
they try to expose you to some of the limitations
that an officer may expose out in real life.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (22:40):
Do they discuss topics like human reaction time?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (22:46):
Now does g RPD Do they train you on on
weapons other weapons as well?
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (22:51):
What weapons were you trained down with g RPD?
Speaker 3 (22:54):
The taser?
Speaker 5 (22:56):
Any others?
Speaker 3 (22:59):
There? Issued firm and pepper spray the time.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Okay, Now going to the taser, you need a drink
of water?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
All right?
Speaker 5 (23:14):
Who instructs the taser training?
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Master taser instructor?
Speaker 5 (23:19):
And we've sat through experts on several experts on tasers. Okay,
so I'm not going to ask you about the working
all of the workings of the taser, but your taser
training does that go all the way back to the
eight week that they start to train you? Yes? Is
it lectures hands on? How do they instruct you the combination.
Speaker 7 (23:40):
There's definitely a classroom element scenarios, and they do a
voluntary exposure.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
We'll get to that in a moment here. But if
used properly by a trained person, what is the main
goal of using the taser on a subject to achieve
neuro muscular incapacitation? And can the taser be effective at
causing capacitation? Do you know that firsthand?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (24:09):
Now your voluntary tasing was that back at your eight
week then yes, mister mcfarlok could do the four of them.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Officer Sure is taking the stand in the trial the
death of Patrick Leoya and the defense now questioning Officers
Sure in this trial.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
We'll bring it the latest. This is News Radio with
thirteen and one O six nine FM.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
Does that appear to be your voluntary tasing session? Yes,
we've had this explain. But is it a rather controlled setting?
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yes? Is does safety seem to be paramount?
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (24:56):
The faces are blurred off, but what is everybody wearing
on their everyone's wearing safety glasses?
Speaker 5 (25:03):
Now, what is your understanding of why the voluntary tasing
might be beneficial to recruits?
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Just to know the effects of it, to know what
you would potentially be doing to someone else as well.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
But even though controlled, do you still have to sign
a waiver?
Speaker 6 (25:26):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (25:26):
And essentially what is the waiver telling?
Speaker 7 (25:29):
Essentially that waiver my understanding was relieving the city of
any potential liability from injury or death that the device
may cause.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Now, who's deploying the taser on you?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
There?
Speaker 3 (25:44):
It's a Master Taser instructor? Could you please play the video?
Did that feeling terrible? What did it? What did it
(26:06):
feel like? Just?
Speaker 7 (26:10):
Essentially, your muscles contract involuntary to their max capacity and
it's extremely excruciating pain.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
Now, can you compare it to anything else that you'd
ever experienced?
Speaker 6 (26:22):
No?
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Have you ever felt like any anything like that before
in your life? No? Now, after having the felt the
effects of the taser, would you volunteer to do it again? No?
But prior to being tased there, did the Master Taser
instructor give you some instructions on what was going to happen?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (26:44):
What did they tell you?
Speaker 7 (26:47):
They did a couple of different deployments and varying spread, and.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
He let me know how he was going to deploy
it on me and where? Yeah, And does that help
at all with any anngst that you may have probably
alleviated some Now, when you were tased there, did you
feel like you had much control over your body? No?
(27:15):
And we've heard this term, I think sometimes taking the ride?
Is that what they refer to it as is when
you're under the effects of the taser?
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (27:24):
How long does that ride last?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Five seconds?
Speaker 5 (27:27):
Do you feel during that five seconds that you have
the ability to defend yourself?
Speaker 3 (27:32):
No?
Speaker 5 (27:33):
What are you trained that can mean for a police
officer in the field, if someone fights them for their
taser and uses.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
It on them, they would get access to a fire.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
Now, in police training, do you discuss topics like the
officers getting disarmed of their weapons?
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (27:53):
Generally, what are you train to presume if a subject
forcefully disarms and officer of their weapon, they would use
it on us? The ride is five seconds? It is
how long do you think it would take for someone
to get your your firearm off your body and use
(28:15):
it on you?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Second, mister mcfire, could you please play that again?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Officers? Sure, on stand right now.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
During the trial in the death of Patrick Leulia, listening
to video of the taser training done at the g RPD.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
User continued to hold it or continue to press the button.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Well, so it's designed to.
Speaker 7 (29:00):
Be charged for five seconds, but you can hold the
trigger down or keep pressing the trigger to keep doing
additional five second cycles.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
And in your training are you warned not to continually
hold it or have repeated trigger pulls? On the subject,
what were you warned? Was the risk of prolonged or
continuous holds or deployments can cause cardiac arrest? And is
cardiac arrest mentioned in the exon materials that they go
(29:33):
through with you?
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (29:35):
What can be the result of cardiac arrest death? Would
you expect aknown and untrained person to know that a
continued or repeated ride could cause cardiac arrest?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Now?
Speaker 5 (29:51):
How far was the master taser instructure from you approximately
when it was deployed?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Probably two feet?
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Would that have particularly with that older model?
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Would that have been.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
Optimal probe spread? No? Can you just stand up a second?
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (30:13):
Put what where did the probes hit on you?
Speaker 3 (30:16):
They hit my I guess right leg, just the backside
of it. They were probably only that far.
Speaker 5 (30:24):
Apart, So that's fairly close, is that, folks? But watching
that video, was it only your leg that felt the
effects of that? No?
Speaker 7 (30:35):
I would say, it was my entire lower body, but
my arms there is more or less involuntary response, so
I didn't feel like I had control of my arms.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Do you feel like the taser did its job and
was able to incapacity to you?
Speaker 6 (30:50):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Now, just going back to this topic of a closer
deployment like that after your violence, Terry tasing did the GRP.
We've heard there was updates and models.
Speaker 6 (31:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Do you recall what model that old one was?
Speaker 7 (31:09):
I don't recall the names I know at the time
of the incident that we're here for. I had the
Taser seven, okay.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
And was there a new feature on the Taser seven
for close quarter situations.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Compared to the older model there?
Speaker 5 (31:27):
Yes, And we've heard was there a new cartridge?
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (31:33):
Yeah, I obviously don't know the exact degrees. Essentially, there
is a cartridge designed with a wider angle if you
will to achieve a greater we'll call it NMI.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
At close range.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
So if in this video you would have had the
newer Taser seven model and it was deployed at that
same distance, what may have been the affect the effect
on you there?
Speaker 7 (32:02):
It would I would assume a greater effects as probes
get further apart.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
Now, besides the cartridges, were you trained that the taser
has the ability to drive stune?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (32:15):
And how do you activate the drive stunt?
Speaker 7 (32:19):
Anytime the device is activated? Essentially, the drive stunt is activated.
It's the drive stunts the technique gets Yeah, we keep
keep mixing it up. Yeah, it's essentially the end of
the device gets activated along with the probes and wires.
Speaker 5 (32:41):
And then are you taught that you can drive that
activation and stun the individual?
Speaker 3 (32:46):
Correct?
Speaker 5 (32:47):
So it's the action is drive.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Stunning or you would get a greater en of mind
by doing that.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
And I'd like to go into that here, because under
what circumstances did g RPD train you to use the
drive stunt?
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Every time we would use the drive stunt, it would
be to achieve NMI.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
So it was that the only time you were ever
practicing the drives done on individuals.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
So to a g RPD officer, you're only using the
drive stunt in association with NMI.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
Mister McFarlane, could you please go to.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
This defense exhibit jay. This is the.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Eight week demonstration on the dummy. Just to confirm, is
this you and the video here that you'll see in
a moment. And this is was this back in the
eight week academy.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yes, could you please play that?
Speaker 5 (34:00):
Yeah, Chris, how far from that's a dummy? Correct, it's
not a live person. How far were you from the
dummy when you deployed the probes?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Foot?
Speaker 5 (34:14):
And what did you do after you deployed the probes?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
I moved the device to what would be the dummies calf.
Speaker 5 (34:23):
Where you trained that that's an acceptable distance to deploy
the taser. Yes, you've heard throughout this trial some question
of you should not deploy the taser at a closer
range under some different standards. This is how you were
trained that you could use the taser in that close
of quarters.
Speaker 8 (34:43):
Could you just play it again, please, I'd just like
you to focus on whole stream.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Able to see yourself getting the.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
Taser out of the holster. Yeah, when we've heard some
jury's heard some testimony on this already. But does it
take some action to get the device out of the taser? Yeah,
I'm sorry to get the device out of the holster.
Speaker 7 (35:23):
So this device, I would say, and holster combination was
significantly easier than what I was equipped with on the
day of the incident. This one was a little more
loose fit, so it's easier to actually get a snap,
which is kind of hard to undo at times, and
then a hood that holds the device in. So this
(35:46):
was a little bit looser fit, so it's a little
more functional, if you will.
Speaker 5 (35:50):
And when the Taser seven came out, are you provided
with new training materials on that?
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (35:55):
And was that a topic that was discussed in some
of those materials as far as that it has a
different type of holster.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (36:02):
Now let's just say on this.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Video, what if only one prob.
Speaker 5 (36:07):
Connected or made contact even with the dummy there, what
would the drive stunt do.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
There?
Speaker 5 (36:16):
What could the drive stunt do to help cause NMI?
Speaker 7 (36:20):
It would I guess, as they would say, complete the
circuit to create a They always, I mean, it's always
a third point of contact, but you can get that
another point of contact to create.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
The ENEMI officers sure on the stand right now, trial
the Patrick depth of Patrick Leoya.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
Occasion to actually use your taser on subjects out in
the field.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Defense is questioning the one many times just once.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
And where on the body did you deploy the taser
on that prior occasion?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Subjects subjects back?
Speaker 5 (36:56):
And was there was it a struggle with the individual
or yes? And how far away from were you from
the individual when you.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Deployed foot and a half?
Speaker 5 (37:06):
And what did you do after that?
Speaker 7 (37:09):
I believe I had to move the device to another
area on the subject to a chief enemie.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
And what did this assist you in the situation? What
were you able to do from that point?
Speaker 3 (37:25):
I was able to take the person into custody.
Speaker 5 (37:29):
Now I'm getting ahead of myself a little bit here, okay,
But in that prior use out in the field going
to April fourth, in an incident that we're here, on
the proximity of you and that individual in the prior case,
was that a very similar proximity as you were to
mister Laoya when you went to initially draw your taser.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (37:57):
On that prior taser occasion, are you required to notify
your department if you use force.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
That Yeah, any use of force, we have to notify
the department.
Speaker 5 (38:08):
And was anything found inappropriate about the way you used
your taser on that occasion? No? What did the department
actually do in response to your use of taser on
that occasions?
Speaker 1 (38:18):
You have to.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
Objector into who another relitation report them, what the department did.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
Or anything, is truly your role.
Speaker 5 (38:27):
Yeah, I think it's important to to go to what
his training was and what his department did, as far
as in response they didn't, uh, Yeah, to to solidify
his training and their practices and his experiences.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
All. I'll sustain that objection because I don't believe that
that's a good question. Was one confident in response.
Speaker 5 (38:55):
To the case, what's ingrained in your head from that
prior experience as far as the distance that you were
from mister Lyley, and whether that might be appropriate that
it was appropriate now during taser training or recruits and
(39:17):
officers when they're updates provided with lectures and materials from Axon.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
I'm sorry, can you say, are you provided.
Speaker 5 (39:25):
Or gone through with materials from Axon the manufacture?
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (39:30):
And what do you warned about the taser.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
That can cause serious boley in jereda?
Speaker 5 (39:36):
Now, are you trained on preferred target areas of the
body to use the taser?
Speaker 6 (39:40):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (39:41):
And how do they show you this in general? Do
you recall anything in particular?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
I think it's it's yeah, it's just a body and
it shows caution areas.
Speaker 5 (39:52):
And are you trained on areas to avoid them. Yes,
and we've heard this area sensitive areas. Is that something
that's discussed.
Speaker 6 (39:59):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:01):
What areas on the body? Are you trained to avoid
using the taser upon?
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Essentially the head, neck, general region and in chest?
Speaker 5 (40:14):
Are you taught to avoid either shooting probes or using
drives done on those areas?
Speaker 6 (40:19):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:21):
What are you trained can be the risk of taser
use on the eyes?
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Blindness?
Speaker 5 (40:34):
Now, are you also advised that taser use on some
of these sensitive areas can just overall cause serious injury
or death. Yes, So that's what you that's you the officer.
That's what you're being instructed directly from the manufacturer. Is
that fair to say?
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:55):
Now, going back to the eight week here, After the
eight week, what are your duties?
Speaker 7 (41:05):
I'm assigned to a field training officer. Essentially, we go
into a FTO program that's four months long. You're given
different training officers to grade your performance on a daily basis.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
And I'm sorry you said that's how long?
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Four months?
Speaker 5 (41:24):
Four months with an ftorect. Is that what they're referred to?
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (41:29):
And along the way they're evaluating and critiquing you. Is
that right?
Speaker 3 (41:33):
That's right?
Speaker 5 (41:34):
And over time do they start to give you more responsibilities?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (41:39):
Do you deem the FTO? Are they essentially an extension
of the training unit?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
There?
Speaker 5 (41:47):
Would an FTO generally be well versed in the rules, policies,
in the practices.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Of the department should be yes.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
At some point were you an FTO down the road?
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (42:00):
For how long? Approximately?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
I think three or four years?
Speaker 5 (42:04):
So did you essentially train other officers in the Grand
Rapids Police Department? Yes, on practices, policies and procedures. Is
that fair to say?
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (42:15):
Now going to April of twenty twenty two, how long
are you How long would you have been an officer
with GRPD in April twenty twenty two?
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Almost seven years?
Speaker 5 (42:24):
In April twenty twenty two, were you overall physically fit?
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (42:30):
Were you a little ways from your college athletic days
or did you maintain that?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
For I think it'd be fair.
Speaker 7 (42:37):
To say I didn't have the moment time to dedicate
to exercise like I did in my college chase.
Speaker 5 (42:43):
But in April twenty twenty two, what did you do
to maintain fitness?
Speaker 7 (42:46):
Just generically I've exercise five or six days a week,
whether it's cardio or weightlifting.
Speaker 5 (42:53):
Okay, anything marathons, iron Man anything like that. How about
MMA or competitive wrestling, anything along those lines. Now, why
did you stay physically fit?
Speaker 3 (43:06):
I just think it's important.
Speaker 7 (43:08):
We are required to back up our partners and assist
people on calls and on Unfortunately, part of our job
is sometimes we have to go hands on with people.
Speaker 5 (43:22):
During the six years of service up until April twenty
twenty two, do you have ongoing trainings? Yes, and just
give us a little synopsis or how often I'd.
Speaker 7 (43:33):
Say we have regular trainings that started to become more
regular with smaller blocks at that time, so we might
have been doing training maybe a couple times a month
on different topics.
Speaker 5 (43:47):
Are there policy updates over the course of that time, Yes?
And are you required to stay up to date on
policy changes?
Speaker 3 (43:57):
Yes? Is that something you've took seriously yes.
Speaker 5 (44:00):
Now, as a road patrol officer in GRPD in April
of twenty twenty two, were there certain crimes that were
more prevalent or perhaps more of concern for you out
on the road in that time?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (44:16):
What were they?
Speaker 7 (44:17):
I would say, in the city at that time, we
had had to worry about gun violence, drugs, and stolen cars.
Speaker 5 (44:29):
Now, we're going to April four of twenty twenty two.
All right, ye, what shift were you working that day?
Speaker 3 (44:36):
First shift?
Speaker 5 (44:38):
What time does first shift run?
Speaker 3 (44:41):
Mine ran from five thirty in the morning to five
thirty at night, So.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
You've got twelve hours that you're essentially out on the road.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (44:50):
How many days a week generally were you working twelve
hour shift?
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Well, it kind of varies. I mean some weeks.
Speaker 7 (44:59):
So one week it's Monday Tuesday, and you have Wednesday
Thursday off, and you work Friday, Saturday Sunday. The next
week you work Wednesday Thursday and that's it.
Speaker 5 (45:07):
So it's all over.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
It's all over the place, okay, and then over time
in between there.
Speaker 5 (45:13):
All right, Now for a five thirty am shift, what
time would you what time did you would you have
woken up on April.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Four of twenty twenty two between four and four thirty?
Speaker 5 (45:25):
Any normal routine in the morning for you just shower, shave, Okay?
What time did you normally arrive to g RPD.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Sometime around five?
Speaker 5 (45:39):
What was your normal routine when you arrive down at
the station.
Speaker 7 (45:43):
Just get into uniform and then go to the room
that we had lineup at and go over wanted subjects,
and we also had a sheet for stolen cars.
Speaker 5 (45:56):
Now, what time would you actually for a five What
time would you actually get out on the road.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Oh, probably closer to six.
Speaker 5 (46:07):
And it's been three years, okay, So I'm not asking
you to remember every bit of your morning there, but
do you remember in general what you had done during
your shift prior to this episode here?
Speaker 7 (46:19):
That morning, I believe I responded to just a basic
alarm at some point, and.
Speaker 6 (46:26):
I know one of the.
Speaker 7 (46:28):
Issues I had in my service area was speeding complaints
in a school zone and the area of thirty six
in kilma Zoo.
Speaker 5 (46:38):
No.
Speaker 7 (46:38):
I went down there and realized that it was a
spring break, it was pretty slow, so there wasn't many
cars to stop in that area at that time. I
know I reviewed policy here and there and eventually ended
up in the area of kelm Zoom and Fuller.
Speaker 5 (46:56):
What were the weather conditions that morning?
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Cold, wet, rainy, the rain snowmacks overall.
Speaker 5 (47:04):
Is it a busy morning now around the roads or was.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
It slow or I recall it being pretty slow?
Speaker 5 (47:13):
Now you mentioned Kelmazoo. You eventually found yourself over in
the area of Kelmazoo Avenue on in Fuller Avenue, correct,
And is that on the southeast side of Grand Rapids?
Speaker 3 (47:27):
It is?
Speaker 5 (47:28):
Are you familiar with that area?
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Very familiar? Why is that I was assigning that area
on night shift for six years?
Speaker 4 (47:46):
Officers sure on the stand during his trial? Did you
and the death of Patrick le Oil? You're listening to
news radio with thirteen and one oh six nine FM.
Speaker 5 (47:54):
The defense questions explains to us here as far as
when you first observe that.
Speaker 7 (48:02):
I was traveling south on Kelma Zoo approaching the area
of Dickinson in Orville, I noticed the vehicle was traveling slowly,
and as I had gotten fairly close to it, made
an abrupt right hand turn onto I believe Orville. At
that point I was able to run the license plate
and I continued south on Kelma Zoo.
Speaker 5 (48:26):
Now what does it mean to run a license plate?
Speaker 7 (48:30):
Essentially, we have a computer right next to us, and
we're able to enter the license plate information into giving
us access to Lean Law Enforcement Information Network and Secretary
of State information.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
And running license plates? Is that a common practice for
you out on patrol?
Speaker 3 (48:50):
Every day?
Speaker 5 (48:51):
It is? How often would you say you run license plates?
Speaker 7 (48:55):
Depending on the day how busy I am. I could
run out to thirty license plates a day.
Speaker 5 (49:00):
Kay when you ran the license plate? Where? Where was?
Where were you behind the vehicle?
Speaker 3 (49:06):
Then it was?
Speaker 5 (49:07):
Were you ever able to even see the occupants inside
of the vehicle? No? So the vehicle? Uh, mister mcfarm,
could you please pull up that?
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Chris? Can I just approach you here?
Speaker 6 (49:25):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Where can I approach the witness? I just wanna get
a laser point? I won't try that. Yes?
Speaker 5 (49:39):
So what what direction were.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
Both please.
Speaker 8 (49:47):
See?
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Says a que at the corner?
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Is it a tim a Q?
Speaker 3 (49:53):
Yes? I'm sorry? Uh, this is dependent's proposed? Or is
it a Q? Okay? Q was already admitted.
Speaker 5 (50:00):
Okay, okay, so it doesn't says it is huge?
Speaker 3 (50:03):
Yes, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (50:06):
So Chris, just to help us understand this a little bit,
what direction were you driving and whereabouts were you when
you first observed the yield?
Speaker 3 (50:16):
Yield? Uh?
Speaker 7 (50:19):
In this area and I believe those right around here
kelma zoo in Orville when I had gotten fairly close
to it.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
And just to confirm it, north is going up in
south is is going downwards? You're on the map, correct,
So you're if I have.
Speaker 5 (50:40):
A right, you were traveling south in the ultima was
traveling south in front of you.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
Correct, the ultima turned where believe it was Orville? Alright,
So they made a right hand turn to head west
on Orville. And as it's turning, you type in.
Speaker 5 (51:01):
The plate and if where do you continue to employ
your typing in the plate?
Speaker 7 (51:06):
I continued south on Kalma Zook And.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
Just tell me as far as running a plate, what
what's the norm of this system produce h You'll type
it in into.
Speaker 7 (51:18):
A little box and you usually experience some type of delay. So,
depending on the Wi Fi connection at the time.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
At some point do you get a response from that?
I did the search, and what does that indicate you?
Speaker 7 (51:37):
I had gotten a response indicating that the license plate
that I had ran didn't match the vehicle that i'd
just seen.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
Essentially, now a plate did does not match a vehicle
is at a law violation?
Speaker 5 (51:53):
It is? Is it a legal justification to stop a vehic?
It is?
Speaker 3 (52:01):
So what did you do next? Well, I had.
Speaker 7 (52:06):
Gotten a response prior to reaching Griggs. When I saw
that I had gotten a response indicating an improper plate,
I'd turned right onto Griggs
Speaker 3 (52:19):
And
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com