Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It is Colorado's Morning News American Airlines engine failure forcing
a flight to divert in land in Denver. If we're
following the story of that plane incident at DIA since
last night.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Joining us now in the Kawa Common Spirit Health Hotline.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Former NTSB Senior air safety investigator, it's Greg fIF Greg
so much appreciate your kindness to come on with us
in these early morning hours before we talk about some
of the investigation piece from your perch and purview, What
would cause an engine to vibrate? What are some of
the things that maybe would cause that to happen?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Well, a lot. There are a number of things, Marty.
You could have a fan blade, which is the big
blades that you actually see when you look in the
front of an engine. They could have you don't need
a very big mark or nick. You could have a
dent in it. You have something that gets the engine
out of balance. There are so many different rotating components
(00:51):
inside that jet engine that if you nick a fan blade,
or a turbine blade, or a compressor blade, it now
throws the whole balance of the entire engine off Because
the center core of those engines are running at around
twenty five to thirty thousand rpm, and so you get
one small thing that goes through it. You know, we
(01:14):
don't know exactly when they reported the vibration or at
least noticed it as a crew. They could have hit
a bird. There are a lot of things that could
have caused a vibration for them to determine that they
couldn't continue.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, that my first thought was the bird strikes, since
we've heard and seen a lot about those, Greg, I'm
assuming every time a plane lands they do some sort
of cursory safety inspection. Would your instincts lead you to
tell you they probably didn't find anything. So whatever happened
did happen mid flight. There was something that happened, whether
it was a hit, something came loose, but it wasn't
anything that they went up in the air with knowing
(01:47):
that they had.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Oh absolutely, Marty. You know, there is a pre flight
inspection performed by one of the two flight crew members,
so they walk around the aircraft. You're looking for things
that are abnormal in the engine. Now you can't see
the center core of an engine. You can only look
in the front end to look at those van blades,
which are the most obvious, but they would start the engine,
(02:11):
they got to push off the gate, they got a taxi.
If there was any kind of vibration, because they're multiple
they're really doing multiple power bush ups where they're they're
getting high power and low power, they would have noticed something.
They would have definitely not taken off with any kind
of abnormal engine operation.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Greg I hear a lot about the aging fleet with
some of these carriers where it's American.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Southwest any of does the age of the plane?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Would that play any factor into what they're looking for
for something like this to happen.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I don't think so. Not in this case. This is
a seven thirty seven Dash eight hundred, which is a
relatively new seven thirty seven. It's been an operation. I
don't know the age of this one particularly, but it's
been operation for you know, a very short time, five
six seven years. But if we maintain dark cars the
way we are required to maintain aircraft, your car would
(03:05):
last thirty years and it would be like brand new.
So the age of the aircraft isn't the issue. It'll
be determining what was the cause of the quote vibration
and then the subsequent fire.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Okay, let's get into your wheelhouse. Then you get on
the scene you have something like this. The good news
is there wasn't any fatalities, a few injuries. But what's
the first thing that you would look at in the
first move you would make upon arriving on the scene
with that plane.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
My big concern is when they noticed, or at least
were given an indication by instrumentation in the aircraft when
they had a fire in the engine. It's one thing
to have a vibration, you're going to feel it, You're
going to get some sort of engine indication. Did they
shut that engine down? If they didn't shut it down,
(03:50):
why didn't they shut it down when they had the vibration,
because the airplane's capable of flying on one engine. I
read multiple witness statements that said soon as they landed,
they started smelling something burning. Okay, if that's the case,
If the fire didn't start in the air but started
on the ground as they were landing, then what indications
(04:11):
did the crew get And if they did get a
fire indication, One, they should have stopped the airplane immediately. Two.
They have what's called a fire suppression system, where we
call it blowing the bottle, where they have a tea
handle in the cockpit that lights up saying you got
a fire. You pull that handle. It cuts off the
fuel and puts extinguishing agent into the engine to put
(04:36):
out the fire. That timeline is going to be extremely
critical because if they taxi into the gate with an
engine on fire, that's a serious issue because it's obvious
the fire department didn't know that they had a major
problem like that because they didn't put the fire out.
It was put out by ground personnel at the gate.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
You're an expert, you're a pilot as well. Not all
vibrations are the same.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I'm assuming when you're flying, if as a pilot and
somebody who's an expert, you can tell the difference between
what is normal vibration and movement versus what isn't I'm assuming.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Absolutely? And again with this type of aircraft, you're going
to have some sort of engine indication. It's not like
the crew is just flying on how man, Charlie, hey,
does that feel like it's vibrating to you? They are
looking for other indications through engine instrumentation. There are so
(05:29):
many different monitoring systems, so whatever it was necessitated them
to believe that they needed to put the airplane on
the ground, divert to DiiA and put the airplane on
the ground rather than continue follow.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Up question to that and final one.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
It's interesting when I hear you discuss about how you'd investigate. Obviously,
in this instant you can talk to people about it.
With some big tragedies you can't. You go with the technology.
But Greg, I get the sense that one of the
biggest things you do is you just get to talk
to the pilots.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
You ask them questions about what.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
They're exering and experiencing and what they were doing in
the moment.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
You do Marty. And then the other thing is once
you get information from the flight crew, you're going to
do a debris with them. You're going to walk through
everything they noticed, everything they did as far as performance,
Why did you do this? What checklist did you run?
But the good thing here is that you also have
the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder. So
you're going to pull the cockpit voice recorder not only
(06:23):
to see or collaborate what they may have said in
an interview, but you may hear noises because part of
the cockpit voicecoder records ambient noise in the cockpit, so
you may hear a warning or a sound that the
crew may not have actually heard or felt. And then
what you're going to do is look at the cockpit
(06:45):
voice record, not only the cockpit voicecoder, but the flight
data recorder, because that's going to give you engine performance
as well as aircraft performance.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
NTSB Senior Safety Investigator, former ANTSB Safety Senior safety Investigator.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
It is Greg five. Greg, Thank you so much, Thank you,
Marty
It is Colorado's Morning News American Airlines engine failure forcing
a flight to divert in land in Denver. If we're
following the story of that plane incident at DIA since
last night.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Joining us now in the Kawa Common Spirit Health Hotline.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Former NTSB Senior air safety investigator, it's Greg fIF Greg
so much appreciate your kindness to come on with us
in these early morning hours before we talk about some
of the investigation piece from your perch and purview, What
would cause an engine to vibrate? What are some of
the things that maybe would cause that to happen?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Well, a lot. There are a number of things, Marty.
You could have a fan blade, which is the big
blades that you actually see when you look in the
front of an engine. They could have you don't need
a very big mark or nick. You could have a
dent in it. You have something that gets the engine
out of balance. There are so many different rotating components
(00:51):
inside that jet engine that if you nick a fan blade,
or a turbine blade, or a compressor blade, it now
throws the whole balance of the entire engine off Because
the center core of those engines are running at around
twenty five to thirty thousand rpm, and so you get
one small thing that goes through it. You know, we
(01:14):
don't know exactly when they reported the vibration or at
least noticed it as a crew. They could have hit
a bird. There are a lot of things that could
have caused a vibration for them to determine that they
couldn't continue.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, that my first thought was the bird strikes, since
we've heard and seen a lot about those, Greg, I'm
assuming every time a plane lands they do some sort
of cursory safety inspection. Would your instincts lead you to
tell you they probably didn't find anything. So whatever happened
did happen mid flight. There was something that happened, whether
it was a hit, something came loose, but it wasn't
anything that they went up in the air with knowing
(01:47):
that they had.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Oh absolutely, Marty. You know, there is a pre flight
inspection performed by one of the two flight crew members,
so they walk around the aircraft. You're looking for things
that are abnormal in the engine. Now you can't see
the center core of an engine. You can only look
in the front end to look at those van blades,
which are the most obvious, but they would start the engine,
(02:11):
they got to push off the gate, they got a taxi.
If there was any kind of vibration, because they're multiple
they're really doing multiple power bush ups where they're they're
getting high power and low power, they would have noticed something.
They would have definitely not taken off with any kind
of abnormal engine operation.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Greg I hear a lot about the aging fleet with
some of these carriers where it's American.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Southwest any of does the age of the plane?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Would that play any factor into what they're looking for
for something like this to happen.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I don't think so. Not in this case. This is
a seven thirty seven Dash eight hundred, which is a
relatively new seven thirty seven. It's been an operation. I
don't know the age of this one particularly, but it's
been operation for you know, a very short time, five
six seven years. But if we maintain dark cars the
way we are required to maintain aircraft, your car would
(03:05):
last thirty years and it would be like brand new.
So the age of the aircraft isn't the issue. It'll
be determining what was the cause of the quote vibration
and then the subsequent fire.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Okay, let's get into your wheelhouse. Then you get on
the scene you have something like this. The good news
is there wasn't any fatalities, a few injuries. But what's
the first thing that you would look at in the
first move you would make upon arriving on the scene
with that plane.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
My big concern is when they noticed, or at least
were given an indication by instrumentation in the aircraft when
they had a fire in the engine. It's one thing
to have a vibration, you're going to feel it, You're
going to get some sort of engine indication. Did they
shut that engine down? If they didn't shut it down,
(03:50):
why didn't they shut it down when they had the vibration,
because the airplane's capable of flying on one engine. I
read multiple witness statements that said soon as they landed,
they started smelling something burning. Okay, if that's the case,
If the fire didn't start in the air but started
on the ground as they were landing, then what indications
(04:11):
did the crew get And if they did get a
fire indication, One, they should have stopped the airplane immediately. Two.
They have what's called a fire suppression system, where we
call it blowing the bottle, where they have a tea
handle in the cockpit that lights up saying you got
a fire. You pull that handle. It cuts off the
fuel and puts extinguishing agent into the engine to put
(04:36):
out the fire. That timeline is going to be extremely
critical because if they taxi into the gate with an
engine on fire, that's a serious issue because it's obvious
the fire department didn't know that they had a major
problem like that because they didn't put the fire out.
It was put out by ground personnel at the gate.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
You're an expert, you're a pilot as well. Not all
vibrations are the same.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I'm assuming when you're flying, if as a pilot and
somebody who's an expert, you can tell the difference between
what is normal vibration and movement versus what isn't I'm assuming.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Absolutely? And again with this type of aircraft, you're going
to have some sort of engine indication. It's not like
the crew is just flying on how man, Charlie, hey,
does that feel like it's vibrating to you? They are
looking for other indications through engine instrumentation. There are so
(05:29):
many different monitoring systems, so whatever it was necessitated them
to believe that they needed to put the airplane on
the ground, divert to DiiA and put the airplane on
the ground rather than continue follow.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Up question to that and final one.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
It's interesting when I hear you discuss about how you'd investigate. Obviously,
in this instant you can talk to people about it.
With some big tragedies you can't. You go with the technology.
But Greg, I get the sense that one of the
biggest things you do is you just get to talk
to the pilots.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
You ask them questions about what.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
They're exering and experiencing and what they were doing in
the moment.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
You do Marty. And then the other thing is once
you get information from the flight crew, you're going to
do a debris with them. You're going to walk through
everything they noticed, everything they did as far as performance,
Why did you do this? What checklist did you run?
But the good thing here is that you also have
the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder. So
you're going to pull the cockpit voice recorder not only
(06:23):
to see or collaborate what they may have said in
an interview, but you may hear noises because part of
the cockpit voicecoder records ambient noise in the cockpit, so
you may hear a warning or a sound that the
crew may not have actually heard or felt. And then
what you're going to do is look at the cockpit
(06:45):
voice record, not only the cockpit voicecoder, but the flight
data recorder, because that's going to give you engine performance
as well as aircraft performance.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
NTSB Senior Safety Investigator, former ANTSB Safety Senior safety Investigator.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
It is Greg five. Greg, Thank you so much, Thank you,
Marty
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