Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
President Trump says Ukrainian President Zelensky is making things difficult
when it comes to ending the war with Russia. Trump
has campaigned that he would make peace between Russia and
Ukraine in a day, and while the reality that was
never going to be the case, there are concerns about
how President Trump and his administration wants to bring an
end to the war.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Overnight, the Russians attack Kiv with missiles and drones. The
strikes killed at least nine and left more than seventy wounded.
Former professor at the US Naval War College, expert on
Russia and now writer for The Atlantic, Tom Nichols joins
us on the koa Common Spirit health hotline. Tom, Welcome
back your latest article that you released yesterday in The Atlantic.
It points to out President Trump wants to attain peace
between Ukraine and Russia. But it seems you and obviously
(00:40):
some others that know this space well, don't see it
as a peace deal, but more as a capitulation. Do
you want to explain a little more on that?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Sure, Good morning. The problem is that the deal Trump
is offering is really just a deal for Russia. It's
a dream deal for Russia. It basically lets putin keep
everything that he's grabbed, leave his troops on Ukrainian territory.
It basically shears off about twenty percent of Ukraine, including
(01:10):
millions of Ukrainian citizens who would now be trapped behind
Russian lines where the Russians have a history of brutal
treatment of the Ukrainians. It also would essentially end Ukraine's independence.
It would prohibit them from joining NATO ever, which normally,
(01:30):
you know, other states don't dictate countries don't dictate what
other states can do and what friends they can have.
And there's nothing in it for the Ukrainians. Basically, they're,
you know, Prutin's required to accept all these lovely gifts,
and the Ukrainian side of it is that they get
some kind of a security guarantee from, of all people,
(01:52):
Donald Trump, who has made clear how much he hates
Ukraine and hates Vlodimar Zelenski personally. So it's really not
a deal. It's just an instrument of surrender and a
gift to the Russians.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Setting the peace deal aside for a moment, just looking
at the war happening right now, what leverage do both
sides have when it comes to just this moment in.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
The war, well, prime and space eventually are going to
be on Russia's side, simply because it's a bigger country
and it's a dictatorial country where they can just keep
throwing boys into meat grinders on the front lines. The Ukrainians,
of course, are dug in because they're defending their home.
They're defending their families, their homes, their land. The Russians
(02:39):
are so hard up that they've actually had to go
and hire up a bunch of North Koreans, which is
something I never would have thought I would see as
North Korean troops fighting in Europe, but here we are. Nonetheless,
Russia is three times the size of Ukraine, and sooner
or later it'll wear them down. The question is will
(03:01):
Russians keep wanting to feed their again, feed their sons
into a meat writer. They may not have a whole
lot of say in it, so right now, this kind
of deal that just leaves the Russians in place would
completely favor Russia. We saw it last night, you just
mentioned it in your news updates this morning, that the
Russian reaction to all of this is just to keep
(03:22):
pounding civilian targets, and they are intentionally choosing civilian targets
in Ukraine to terrorize them into trying to capitulate.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
You wrote that if a deal like this does happen,
Russia will finish the job, to use your words, meaning
exactly what.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
They'll regroup, they'll catch their breath. The other thing the
Russians get out of this deal, which I neglected dimension
a moment ago, is that Washington promises to end sanctions
against Russia, so the Russian economy recovers, the Russian war
machine gets a break, they get to regroup, rearm, and
(03:58):
at some point they'll just start from where they are
now and drive on toward Kiev and finally end this
whole business by occupying Ukraine and turning it into a
kind of arm of the Russian state, which is what
Putin was aiming to do all along. So if they
accept this deal, it's basically the end of Ukraine as
(04:19):
a country.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Vice President Ja d Vance has said that the deal
would mean that Ukraine and Russia are going to have
to give up some of the territory that they currently own.
Your reaction to that, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Vance, I think has a very simplistic understanding of all this.
He's in over his head on foreign affairs, and he's
trying to echo the administration's line with this kind of
very shallow realism that says, well, they get something, the
other guy's get something. That's not how it's going to work.
(04:50):
And that's not even the deal that his own president
has put on the table. So I'm not sure either
Vance doesn't understand the deal that Trump is offering, or
he's simply thinking out loud and not thinking very deeply
about this.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
You point out that we too often with much haste,
reference World War Two with events like this and what
we're seeing, but you present a different conflict in war
that you say is a little more analogous to what's
going on with Russian Ukraine than World War Two. Go
ahead and explain that.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Sure, this would be this kind of deal would be
like the Americans intervening in the Korean War after the
North has invaded the South and tried to wipe it out,
and say, okay, you know, the North Koreans are all
the way down on the southern end of the peninsula.
Let's freeze everybody in place, and the Southern soldiers and
the Northern soldiers should all just put their guns down
(05:41):
and to use JD. Vans's world words build a better
North and South. He said that about Russian and Ukraine, well,
we have to get back to building a better Russia
and Ukraine. Again, one of those kind of empty phrases.
It's inane, it's strategically inane. It would be like us
after the after the Iraqi's vanished, the Kuwaiti state off
(06:05):
the map, and turning to other countries and the golf saying, well,
you know, sometimes it just happens. Countries just disappear. That's
how it goes. What what Vance and Trump are proposing
is not only strategically amoral and vacuous. It's not who
we are. It's not it's not who America is. We've
(06:27):
never been like this, certainly not when faced with massive
Russian aggression in the middle of Europe. So it's it's
not only a bad deal, it's a shameful deal.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
One of the next times Trump and Zelensky will be
in the same room will actually be for Pope Francis's
funeral coming up on Saturday. Do you think we'll see
any discussions happening this weekend?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I doubt it. You know, the state funeral like that
is usually not a time where people get together and
talk turkey about this stuff. But I think the question
is whether Trump and Zelenski are ever going to have
a productive conversation after that spectacle that Trump and Advance put
on in the White House where they bullied and attacked
(07:12):
and insulted an ally. Zelenski got treated in the White
House worse than actual enemies of the United States get treated.
So I'm not sure that there's really any chance that
they're going to sit down again and Donald Trump is
suddenly going to become a reasonable, reasonable person. I just
don't think that's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Final question, Tom, We always keep hearing that Europe needs
to step up and fill the void. Appears that the
US is going to maybe leave a vacuum there. But
should Europe step up more in regards to offering forces
for Ukraine.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Europe's already stepping up more. The Germans in particular, they
have a new government and they are determined to help
the Ukrainians and with money and arms. The United States
as being the drag on that States is trying to
hold up even the movement of German arms, which really
tells you that the Europeans are on the side of
(08:08):
the Ukrainians, of freedom of the West, and the United
States has become the de facto ally of Russia, which
I find painful and shameful to say. But you know,
we are not just helping the bad guys in this conflict.
We are becoming the bad guys in this conflict.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Writer for the Atlanta H's Tom Nichols
President Trump says Ukrainian President Zelensky is making things difficult
when it comes to ending the war with Russia. Trump
has campaigned that he would make peace between Russia and
Ukraine in a day, and while the reality that was
never going to be the case, there are concerns about
how President Trump and his administration wants to bring an
end to the war.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Overnight, the Russians attack Kiv with missiles and drones. The
strikes killed at least nine and left more than seventy wounded.
Former professor at the US Naval War College, expert on
Russia and now writer for The Atlantic, Tom Nichols joins
us on the koa Common Spirit health hotline. Tom, Welcome
back your latest article that you released yesterday in The Atlantic.
It points to out President Trump wants to attain peace
between Ukraine and Russia. But it seems you and obviously
(00:40):
some others that know this space well, don't see it
as a peace deal, but more as a capitulation. Do
you want to explain a little more on that?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Sure, Good morning. The problem is that the deal Trump
is offering is really just a deal for Russia. It's
a dream deal for Russia. It basically lets putin keep
everything that he's grabbed, leave his troops on Ukrainian territory.
It basically shears off about twenty percent of Ukraine, including
(01:10):
millions of Ukrainian citizens who would now be trapped behind
Russian lines where the Russians have a history of brutal
treatment of the Ukrainians. It also would essentially end Ukraine's independence.
It would prohibit them from joining NATO ever, which normally,
(01:30):
you know, other states don't dictate countries don't dictate what
other states can do and what friends they can have.
And there's nothing in it for the Ukrainians. Basically, they're,
you know, Prutin's required to accept all these lovely gifts,
and the Ukrainian side of it is that they get
some kind of a security guarantee from, of all people,
(01:52):
Donald Trump, who has made clear how much he hates
Ukraine and hates Vlodimar Zelenski personally. So it's really not
a deal. It's just an instrument of surrender and a
gift to the Russians.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Setting the peace deal aside for a moment, just looking
at the war happening right now, what leverage do both
sides have when it comes to just this moment in.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
The war, well, prime and space eventually are going to
be on Russia's side, simply because it's a bigger country
and it's a dictatorial country where they can just keep
throwing boys into meat grinders on the front lines. The Ukrainians,
of course, are dug in because they're defending their home.
They're defending their families, their homes, their land. The Russians
(02:39):
are so hard up that they've actually had to go
and hire up a bunch of North Koreans, which is
something I never would have thought I would see as
North Korean troops fighting in Europe, but here we are. Nonetheless,
Russia is three times the size of Ukraine, and sooner
or later it'll wear them down. The question is will
(03:01):
Russians keep wanting to feed their again, feed their sons
into a meat writer. They may not have a whole
lot of say in it, so right now, this kind
of deal that just leaves the Russians in place would
completely favor Russia. We saw it last night, you just
mentioned it in your news updates this morning, that the
Russian reaction to all of this is just to keep
(03:22):
pounding civilian targets, and they are intentionally choosing civilian targets
in Ukraine to terrorize them into trying to capitulate.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
You wrote that if a deal like this does happen,
Russia will finish the job, to use your words, meaning
exactly what.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
They'll regroup, they'll catch their breath. The other thing the
Russians get out of this deal, which I neglected dimension
a moment ago, is that Washington promises to end sanctions
against Russia, so the Russian economy recovers, the Russian war
machine gets a break, they get to regroup, rearm, and
(03:58):
at some point they'll just start from where they are
now and drive on toward Kiev and finally end this
whole business by occupying Ukraine and turning it into a
kind of arm of the Russian state, which is what
Putin was aiming to do all along. So if they
accept this deal, it's basically the end of Ukraine as
(04:19):
a country.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Vice President Ja d Vance has said that the deal
would mean that Ukraine and Russia are going to have
to give up some of the territory that they currently own.
Your reaction to that, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Vance, I think has a very simplistic understanding of all this.
He's in over his head on foreign affairs, and he's
trying to echo the administration's line with this kind of
very shallow realism that says, well, they get something, the
other guy's get something. That's not how it's going to work.
(04:50):
And that's not even the deal that his own president
has put on the table. So I'm not sure either
Vance doesn't understand the deal that Trump is offering, or
he's simply thinking out loud and not thinking very deeply
about this.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
You point out that we too often with much haste,
reference World War Two with events like this and what
we're seeing, but you present a different conflict in war
that you say is a little more analogous to what's
going on with Russian Ukraine than World War Two. Go
ahead and explain that.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Sure, this would be this kind of deal would be
like the Americans intervening in the Korean War after the
North has invaded the South and tried to wipe it out,
and say, okay, you know, the North Koreans are all
the way down on the southern end of the peninsula.
Let's freeze everybody in place, and the Southern soldiers and
the Northern soldiers should all just put their guns down
(05:41):
and to use JD. Vans's world words build a better
North and South. He said that about Russian and Ukraine, well,
we have to get back to building a better Russia
and Ukraine. Again, one of those kind of empty phrases.
It's inane, it's strategically inane. It would be like us
after the after the Iraqi's vanished, the Kuwaiti state off
(06:05):
the map, and turning to other countries and the golf saying, well,
you know, sometimes it just happens. Countries just disappear. That's
how it goes. What what Vance and Trump are proposing
is not only strategically amoral and vacuous. It's not who
we are. It's not it's not who America is. We've
(06:27):
never been like this, certainly not when faced with massive
Russian aggression in the middle of Europe. So it's it's
not only a bad deal, it's a shameful deal.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
One of the next times Trump and Zelensky will be
in the same room will actually be for Pope Francis's
funeral coming up on Saturday. Do you think we'll see
any discussions happening this weekend?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I doubt it. You know, the state funeral like that
is usually not a time where people get together and
talk turkey about this stuff. But I think the question
is whether Trump and Zelenski are ever going to have
a productive conversation after that spectacle that Trump and Advance put
on in the White House where they bullied and attacked
(07:12):
and insulted an ally. Zelenski got treated in the White
House worse than actual enemies of the United States get treated.
So I'm not sure that there's really any chance that
they're going to sit down again and Donald Trump is
suddenly going to become a reasonable, reasonable person. I just
don't think that's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Final question, Tom, We always keep hearing that Europe needs
to step up and fill the void. Appears that the
US is going to maybe leave a vacuum there. But
should Europe step up more in regards to offering forces
for Ukraine.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Europe's already stepping up more. The Germans in particular, they
have a new government and they are determined to help
the Ukrainians and with money and arms. The United States
as being the drag on that States is trying to
hold up even the movement of German arms, which really
tells you that the Europeans are on the side of
(08:08):
the Ukrainians, of freedom of the West, and the United
States has become the de facto ally of Russia, which
I find painful and shameful to say. But you know,
we are not just helping the bad guys in this conflict.
We are becoming the bad guys in this conflict.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Writer for the Atlanta H's Tom Nichols
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