Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Into a broadcast, Dave, I don't know like Courtland Sutton anymore.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I had it worked out for the Tennessee opener.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
But not Courtland Sudden down in the field. Look at
those supplis.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
What a catch?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Rick? Such supple hands hand midfield, you know, really supple hands.
Marvin Mims? You remember, remember Marvin Mims in.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
That touchdown catch against the Browns nine ninety three yards?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah? Why do you look at the show?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
I guess you can remember because you know, are you
on the field just like everybody else? Do you'll watching it?
I was actually sitting there on the field, like.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I say it like like this, this moment for me
is like the the definition of supple hands. I don't
know if we saw that audio or I.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Guess if you want to talk about you know when
I you know, I had the interception as the feelers,
you could go that way, you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Know what that that's a pretty good one.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
You know, you don't have to be a hater.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
You with that?
Speaker 5 (00:56):
Not?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Did you remember front?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
You know exactly?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
You probably know what the hell.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Week it was. Yeah, you want to know why? I
know what year it was because you got you My
daughter was born literally two days earlier.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So, okay, what what week, We'll see if we can
find it a week.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
It was the week so Evylyn was born in October. No,
she smiling. No, nev Laden said that it was November
twenty first. There was November twenty third, and from the
first it was the twenty third, because it was two
days after she won a Steelers the Steelers, and it
was she's about to be seven this year, so it's
twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Okay, all right, we're gonna see if we can see
we can find that. Oh yeah, I might as I
might have said, oh, what's supple hands, my big Shelby
Harris supple hands.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Yeah, you know, you know, there's other things you can
go to other than the same Marvin Bim's ketch. What
great catch, great run? You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
But she really won a great run because there was nobody.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Over.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
As soon as he caught it. It was a well.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
As soon as Denzel dove for it and didn't get it,
it was not a chance anybody else was going to
get on that. You know, I jogged my five yards.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
The only reason I think I could keep coming back to.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
It, other than it being one of the most memorable
plays of the season, which was it was, I mean,
a nice three yard touchdown in that game is thrown
from his.
Speaker 6 (02:17):
Own goal the Bill's game. Wasn't we call that in football?
We call that goal line line right inside the goal line?
I my brain said, I'm sorry, backed up my lot.
My brain said, line.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And what they're going to do hard count? And what
they do hard count? Then a then a shot.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, but it was a memorable play. And then you
said he was overrated afterwards. So that's why I keep
coming back to that is.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I just said he could have been better that game.
He wasn't that good that game he had he almost
threw what three inceptions that game?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Do you know why Shelby to work with us eventually? No,
I do. I want to stop this line and probably
question now this.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
You know, once again, I've been nothing but you know,
complimentary to bon Knicks, But that one game was one
of his worst games, and he did a lot better
the rest of the season. But the one thing which
I've always said and the stats prove it, is he
did struggle against man coverage last year, and we ran
a lot of man coverage against against the Broncos, and
(03:20):
you know, obviously when you run man coverage, you have
plays like the Marvin Mems one.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Even though that was against zone, I don't know what
it was because that it was zone. It was wide open,
it was it was like a two invert. So the corner,
the corner, Well, no, I'm the thing.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I'm no, I don't think because I think somebody.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Messed up, well my corner.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yeah, I can't think.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Of his name. Denzel Ward sinks back in on Memes
who's the inside receiver, and tries to make a play.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah. So that's a situation where you gotta have it,
you gotta make me. Got to have it, man, I'm
talking about you know what. It reminds me of it? Mindself.
Just play against the Colts. I think twenty seventeen Broncos
versus Colts. Was it twenty eighteen Brocos? I think it
was twenty eighteen, actually, Broncos versus Colts in Indianapolis, and
(04:14):
we are you know, we had a chance to win
the game and Vom misses a sack on Jam That.
I remember that, and that's pretty much was the end
of the game. After that, it was I'm talking about
I'm thinking, oh, we're good. And then and then they
carry goes and.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Kicks a That was the game that Joe Flacco after
the game went off on the OC.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Yes, God, who is that received?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
We're not We're not even what are we not trying
to win in the last two minutes of the game?
Why would we? In other words, I'm paraphrasing the words,
but when I heard his comments, I'm thinking, oh, this
is not going to be received.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Well, I'm trying to remember who that wide receiver was.
He's a little little guy. He was beat for the Broncos.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Are you talking about Colts.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
T Yeah, y Hilton, Yes, yes, god, you guys, you
guys had had that game.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Oh, trust me, like honestly, that that right there is
the pity me of my Broncos career all five years.
There's a bunch of games that, you know, looking back
at it should have been wins, but then we just
it's one or two things that we don't do as
a team and their losses. And that's right there shows
you how slim that margin is between winning and losing.
(05:32):
Like that Colts game we're just talking about, we are
like vomn out of one hundred times that is a
strip sack fumble, like, you know, QB sack and we're
not talking and that's a win. But that one time
Jacoby Brissett broke that tackle and made that play. So man,
(05:53):
that's that's football.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
That is football. There wasn't.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Loon said that Bonix was was first in the league
at and I think it might surprise you and we
can talk about that coming up, sort of talking about
the twenty seventeen season. Hear of the break for the
Broncos Welcome back, Dave Logan, Ryan and rachelebe Harris. All right,
so there was a stat and I heard this the
other day on a podcast, there was a staff for
(06:19):
bon Nicks that, yeah, and maybe we talked about him
if we haven't, but he was number one in the
NFL last year in passing yards outside of the pocket.
And so now, on one hand, you say, well, it's
kind of cool, it's kind of a cool stat. In
the other hand, it's it's an acknowledgement that he abandoned
the pocket, if you will, he moved outside the pocket.
(06:41):
And so I guess the question I have for you
is that something that if you're Sean Payton, that you
accentuate you say, well, this is part of his game.
Let's let's go ahead and build on this, or is
this something that you'd like to see him kind of
maybe grow out of and stick to the plan inside
the pocket bit more.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I think it would depend on going back and charting
every single one of his throws. When you say abandon,
that has a negative connotation, so it maybe I'm not Maybe,
I'm certain if we went back and evaluated every one
of his throws and the Broncos have done that, they
probably have two handfuls times two of throws where it's like, hey,
(07:18):
you didn't have to leave here, either climb the pocket
or slide in the pocket. But that I mean, that's
how quarterbacks can get better, and that's how offensive linemen
have better stats at the end of the season, because
there are some quarterbacks and I didn't think Bo did
this a lot last year, but there's some quarterbacks that
run themselves into sacks. Well, the sack goes against the
(07:42):
offensive lineman or the offensive line in general, but the
quarterback can really help. Just my understanding, you know where
pressure is, and if you have edge pressure and that
those three in front of you are solid, you can
slide up in the pocket. You can maneuver in the pocket.
I mean guy like like Peyton Manning, even Tom Brady.
I mean, neither one of those guys was a great athlete.
(08:05):
Both of them were like world class at doing what
I just described. Man, I.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Just remember watching, you know, all the time Brady film
and whenever you're about to play Tom Brady, and the
first thing they always say is, guys, you know, we
don't know exactly how he does it, but he moves
around the pocket extremely well. Tom Brady was a pro
at avoiding pressure, stepping up, stepping to the side, you know.
The one thing that he didn't do much though, was
(08:32):
step back, you know, and now in a lot of
now and most most quarterbacks when they want to leave
the pocket, they backpedal and start doing Brady's finding ways
to keep his eyes downfield and move up and around
the pocket just to buy just enough time to throw
the ball. And my only you know, gripe I would
(08:54):
say about you know this bow, nick stat is you're
supposed to have the best old line, one of the
best old lines in the league, right, true, So is
it are you leaving the pocket just because that's what
you're used to doing, or are you actually doing are
you actually have to leave the pocket? And I think
that's really the question you have to see is you
have to watch it and be like, all right, is
(09:14):
he just running out of the pocket for no reason
or is he actually getting pressured.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I didn't see. I didn't see running out of the
pocket for no reason too many times, I think, I mean,
especially for a young quarterback, a rookie quarterback, he had
what I believe was unusual poise because I mean most,
maybe not most, a whole bunch of young quarterbacks when
(09:39):
they first get the first time and they play the
whole season whatever, man, they're good, and then they get
hit and then somebody hits them under the chin, and
then all of a sudden, it's like like, no, I'm
not standing in here and taking that. If I start
to see flash as of color, I am out, especially
if you're a good athlete, and bon Nick's is so.
(10:01):
I mean, like the throw he makes to Memes that
the ball was in the air sixty five yards fourth
quarter in Cincinnati, going right to left. I mean he
got out of the pocket that time right and threw
a touchdown. So that would those stats would go, you know,
on your number by design I'm trying to I'm trying
to remember the play. I I can't tell you that.
(10:25):
I can't. I can't remember if it was a design
pocket roll or not.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I want to feel like it was, because it felt
it felt like maybe not a full boot, but it
felt like it was a boot action like he.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Was you know, he didn't boot. It wasn't a boot.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Play action.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
He might might have been a design pocket move. I
just we'll pull it up.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, to your point that like that goes to part
of it. So again, what you're saying is that's not
all a rookie taking off.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
That's right when he's maybe.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Supposed to try to sit in there and study it
a little bit more and be in the presence of,
as you mentioned, one of the best offensive lines.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And you also don't want to penalize a guy like
bo Nicks for making some plays with his legs as
long as he understands and goes back and looks at it.
I mean, you're not. You know where I thought Russ
the previous two years got in trouble is I thought
he predetermined that I'm getting out of the pocket, and
(11:32):
I thought he was more comfortable moving and kind of
pinballing instead of just reading the progressions of whatever the
concept you have called right, Russell would go back a
lot of times, and I mean he was looking to
bounce around because he made so many big, big plays
in Seattle that were offscript. And even Russell Wilson or
(11:55):
anybody else, you can do that in the NFL, but
you cannot do that on a deady basis.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Here was the actual touchdown as you as you called
it against Cincinnati.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Bo takes a snap play, fakes, rolls to his rights,
bow looks downfield, throws a deep ball downfield.
Speaker 7 (12:11):
He's got mimes a man fix and touch cuts up Denver.
What a fro by Bow nicks fifty one yards.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
Marvin Mims beat the two safeties Jordan Battle and Gino Stone.
Nick through it from about the forty Mims caught it
eight yards deep in the end zone. That ball was
in the air sixty eight yards.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I want to see the video.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
Yeah, I want to pull the video. Will you be
able to tell in the video, but you signed it.
He rolls right.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
He did absolutely roll to his right. I just don't
know if that was by design or not.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Okay, all right, we'll pull that up through the break.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I have another kind of football quarterback coach question I
want to ask you guys.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
We'll get to that coming up next.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
You know what the craziest part about that was is
while the play was going on, like I just felt
Ben Roethlisberger staring at me. He was like looking behind me.
But I was like, we didn't.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I don't remember. You didn't really like really jump jump
in the air and just like snatched it out of
mid air. I threw it right.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
I told you, he was making eye contact with you
the whole time, and then he just threw. He didn't
even throw, he just like lofted it up there. It
was literally I could not believe it. And then it
happened to be. It was two days after my daughter
was born, so I'm like, it was just meant to be,
absolutely and then went crazy, Bob, we took the ball.
My daughter has newborn pictures with the ball.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Oh nice.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I have the jersey hanging up with you know, all
that stuff in the house, and you know, it's just like,
you know, it's just a really cool story to be
able to tell Evelyn. You know every you know, every
year and everything. You know, It's it's really cool.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
That is really cool.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Well in that offense, man, I mean you remember that
time with Antonio Brown and.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Oh god they were.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
And so you know actually what I I My wife
mentioned this, I was like, oh yeah, I credited myself
for breaking up Pittsburgh's big three. There it is because right,
I know, because right after that, you gotta remember Antonio
Brown started going off on Ben Roethlisberger being like, how
are you gonna blame that on me? Saying I ran
around wrong route? You threw it to the d lineman, yeah,
(14:23):
joint And then I mean he did throw that like
right to you.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I know, I'll take it.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Hell yeah every time well he threw here, like it
was just such a bad throw because I remember because
Roby Bradley Roby he was on a d and said
going to the pick was like if it wasn't virgin, yeah,
if you watch the play, bro was like, no, he
(14:49):
thought he was about to get about to get the pick,
and it just fell right into my hands.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Best hands in the league.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It is supple hands in the league.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Five six nine zeros or KWA Comma sparate off text line.
If you want to interact with anything from the program,
we'll get back into some of the Nuggets moves and
some of the optimism. Holy cal the betting markets are
really loving the Nuggets right now, is not only in
the Western Conference but overall for a possible championship next year.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
So we'll talk about that coming up here in a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
But I was listening to the Athletic Football podcast today
and they had a really cool debate about are.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
We entering an era where you could make the.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Argument that a play caller, an offensive play caller, may
be more valuable than the quarterback. And I, initially, on
face value, I thought that was kind of wild to
think about, because we've been conditioned for so many years
saying you go out, you try to find that elite quarterback,
the play you know, the playmaker on the field. But
you start to think about, well, the Sean mcvays and
(15:45):
Kevin O'Connell and Kyle Shanahan, Sean Payton here in Denver,
Anthony A sorry in Kansas City, Gosh, Any Reid, I
almost called him Anthony Andy Reid. Point is, yeah, Ben Johnson,
You start to think about like what those teams are
and what those guys represent for their team, And I
(16:06):
don't know, maybe there's a bit of an argument that
the era is now tilting towards the play caller.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I don't think so. I mean, I think the play
designer and then the play caller and sometimes it's the
same guy, are really important. But you still have to
have one of those guys, right, I mean you still
have to have I mean, here's what I would say.
I mean Ben Johnson, I love that offense with Detroit
(16:36):
to the last few years, he's been very creative. He'd
been a little tricky sometimes I think he gets a
little bit too tricky, but you know what, they've been
very good in Detroit. The resurgence of the Lions is
I think many people that live in Detroit thought they
never see that, never see it. That said, now he
goes to Chicago, he's the head coach. You've got the
(16:56):
first pick in the draft, albeit a guy that's going
into his second year. You think he'll miss a beat.
You think Chicago's offense will be as good. He's got
the first pick in the draft two years ago. You
think they'll be as good as Detroit was because you
have the same play designer and same play caller. Yes,
(17:19):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
I think it actually believed they will be better on offense,
and Detroit will actually take a step back.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I think Detroit may take a step back, and I
think Chicago may be better. Whether sure, hoping they're better
than they were last year, But I'm talking about do
we think the Bears this upcoming fall will be as
good as the Lions have been offensively in the last
two years? And I say no. And the play caller
and play designer is exactly the same. I think that
(17:47):
those two roles are key to a really good football team.
But you still have to have that guy, right. Andy
Reid is regarded as one of the great play callers
play designer of all time. When he was in Philadelphia,
he was still thought to be a really good coach,
maybe even a great coach. They could not win the
(18:08):
big game. What's the difference? They had Donovan McNabb who
was a really good player, and he's had Patrick Mahomes
who is a great, like you know, generational talent at quarterbacks.
That true.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Listen.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I think those are all really good points. And I
don't know if there's a right or wrong in all
of this. I think I tend to lean more.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Where you're going.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Well, then I feel better about that.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
But look, but he got out Alex Smith, right, I mean,
Alex Smith was could considered again another first overall pick,
considered a bit more of a journeyman quarterback, especially by
the time he got to Kansas City he was traded there.
He did a really good job with Alex job without offense.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
But they well, how did I mean Kansas City didn't
didn't They may have won a playoff game, they may
have beat the Colt I think they beat the Colts
with Alex Smith, but Kansas City didn't make any that
I can remember deep runs into the into the playoffs
with Alex Smith and even Andy Reid.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
No, they didn't. It was it was a regular season
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
But that was also any read up until he finally
got Mahomes and then he finally kind of got over
the hump. I'm just saying regular season they were they
were a house man, I mean, they were incredible, and
so I guess I even bring it here locally for
a second. Like the success that the Broncos are having
with Bo Nicks and Sean Payton. If you, if you
asked Broncos fans, who is that more attributed to of
(19:26):
the two of them?
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Who Are they going to say, m.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Have you lost Broncos fans? Yeah, they're going to say
a quarterback because of what they.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Just went through.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Oh, I think it's the opposite.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
You're talking about who's more who's more important? Yes, I
think you're going to have to say quarterback because you
saw Sean Payton with Russell Wilson. You saw Sean Payton
with bow Knicks. I think that the recency bias of
Russell Wilson is going to make you say bow Knicks.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Shelby's absolutely right. I mean Sean Payton, I think is
one of those guys play designer, play caller, and he's
really really good at it. He had Russell Wilson and
then the next year for him, he had bow Nicks. Really,
there was no comparison in terms of Now there was
(20:19):
a comparison in terms of some of the numbers because
Russell in his last year here, first year with Sean,
his numbers were a little misleading, but they were actually decent,
maybe even above average.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
A lot of sacks, but otherwise, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
But I don't think anybody in the right mind that
watches Broncos football or hopefully listens, would say the seventeen
games that we saw in Sean Payton's first year here
and Russell Wilson a quarterback, we're pretty much the same.
They looked the same offensively as they did last year.
I don't think anybody would say that.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
I'm still a believer that though, even though in this
one case, you know, I know people are going to
choose quarterback. I'm a big believer though that if to
overcome back coaching so too. Yeah, just look at I'm
not saying this is bad coaching, but if you look
at Jared Goff's stats with the Rams compared to the Lions,
(21:13):
so specifically with Ben Johnson, you know, because Jared Goff
did have a fire like his second his second and
third year in the league when no one really can
stop the McVeigh oppins. Jared Goff had two of them,
you know, two of his best years in the league.
But those barely come close to his last year with
(21:36):
Ben Johnson, where he threw seventy two forty six hundred
yards thirty seven touchdowns twelven exceptions. I think it depends
on who the quarterback is.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Jared Goff though I'd say this about him, and he's
like a lot of other quarterbacks. He's the guy that
is so much better when he has a running game
because he's he's in the play pass part of throwing
the ball. He's really good. It's one of the things really,
when you think about the Patriots when they played the
Rams and the Super Bowl in that low scoring game,
(22:09):
when when the Patriots game plan for Jared Goff was
they played an eight and at times nine man front
and said, listen, you're not running the ball. If you're
going to throw it, it's going to be straight dropped back.
And that's really that was not what Jared Goff was about.
He got a little better with the Lions, but he's
(22:31):
still he's a play action pass quarterback.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
First, you're not wrong about that, because once Todd Gurley
got hurt, Jared Goff's you know, numbers in LA dramatically declined.
That Super Bowl you're talking about, Todd Gurley was already
hood and so they're like, you're going to have to
find someone else to run the ball, and they couldn't.
Jared Golf good so then, but I believe though, if
(22:56):
you put up Patrick Mahomes in that same situation, he'll.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
Still no, no fair. And there are some quarterbacks.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I think that sort of defy this argument to this conversation.
I guess when it comes to the Sean Payton and
Bonnicks thing, and this isn't meant to be a pejority
of I'm not trying to put down Boone Knicks. This
is a The pairing of them is what makes it magic,
what makes it good. And if Boon Knicks went somewhere else,
I mean, you think we've had the same conversation about
(23:23):
Alan San Francisco with Kyle Shanahan, right, and saying, well,
different quarterbacks that he's been paired with, they may not
be as successful elsewhere, but Kyle brings out the best
of them. Kevin o'connelly, brock Perdy, Kevin O'Connell with Sam Darnold.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Last year brings out the best in whatever.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Quarterback he had the past or not for trying out loud,
brought out the best in him. So I'm saying, if
bo Knicks went somewhere else, is he the same guy. Well,
if he went to Kevin O'Connell or Kyle Shanahan, yeah
probably he's probably really good. But if he went to
as you said, maybe a bad coach or bad coaching well.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Coach that doesn't actually try to learn what you do
well and actually try to execute it in games. Yeah,
you're going to.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Struggle, so that, I guess that's the the crux.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Of it, if you will, is that where I say
I lean that Sean Payton is, I guess, the architect
of what we're doing here about you?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I agree with that statement. He is the architect of
what the Broncos are doing here. And it's it's hard
to say you only get one. Would you take the
quarterback or would you take the play designer slash play caller?
You need you need both?
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Right? If you put If you put Sean Payton in
Cleveland this year, no disrespect Shelby. And he's got to
pick between Joe Flacco, Kenny Pickett, Shador Sanders, and Dylan Gabriel.
Dylan Gabriel, I'm not sure Sean has the kind of
(24:56):
year that he had last year with bon Nix. Now,
I do think Cleveland would be better. I think they'd
be better on offense because he'd identified which one of
these guys are we going with and then let's dial
up stuff that that guy can can be best at.
Shelby's right, and we talked. Even when Al was doing
the show, we all we all were in agreement. I mean,
(25:18):
coaching matters, whether it's high school, college, NFL, what have you.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Not.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Every coach is the same. And you think of every
coach when you say he's an NFL coach immediately, because
I was like this forever. You think, man, that guy's
a brilliant, brilliant coach.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Maybe, and there's a bunch of them in the league.
But there's there's guys that don't fit into that category
in the NFL as well.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Well, you know, with Jared Golf, and I keep going
to Jared Golf because obviously, you know, I'm thinking about
how Ben Johnson leaving him to go to go to Chicago,
I think, and also, like you guys said, you said,
all right, Jared goffon type of quarterback that needs a
run game. So in that idea, in that aspect, Jared
golf stats should be just fine, but they won't be
(26:08):
you know, in that aspect if you're really thinking of
it like that, then everything there should be no difference
between you know, obviously Jared golf stats from the years
before with the relions to now, which I think there
will be a drop off and his stats because the
creativity of Ben Johnson's offense. But also I do believe
(26:30):
with Caleb Williams the issue with them last year they
weren't forcing the run game. And I love how Ben
Johnson is created for his runs and his passes. You know,
so that right there is going to open up for
Kateleb Williams. He's going to have his career best here.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Let me ask you from a defensive perspective, I think
you kind of touched on something very interesting there. When
you guys are studying an opponent, how much of I
guess the percentage of it is the study of the
scheme versus the study of the player.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Uh So, it's a mix because obviously, when you play
a quarterback like an Aaron Rodgers or somebody can change
to play at the line of screamage, So you got
to study what also what Aaron Rodgers likes to do.
But a lot of it has to be the scheme
because a lot of these quarterbacks do not have the
veto power. We're in an age now where a lot
of those veteran quarterbacks are not in the league anymore.
(27:20):
You do have a couple, but most quarterbacks, the play
is called, they're running the play.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
So so does that sound like the scheme and the
designer maybe has a little bit we're gonna make.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
You still gotta have that quick decision making in order
to get the ball to whoever.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
You know, that's the thing.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
You see one safety up top, you know it's either
cover three or it is covered or you know, cover one.
You know what I mean, Like, you gotta be you
gotta be able to make that decision quick still, so
that decision making will always be on the quarterback. Okay,
but I do remember those days where, you know, the
the Rams days with I keep bringing back to Jared
(27:56):
Golf where Seanan Vay's telling them, hey, these guy's will
be open. Throw the you know what I mean, you
do have some coordinators to be like, I don't care,
throw the ball here and it works, you know. I mean,
that's the type of thing that works. So it's a
very interesting concept. But I do believe that obviously you
need both the quarterback and the coordinator. Sure, I just
(28:18):
think that the coordinator is extremely important because like we
saw in Chicago last year with them after they find
after they fired Shane Waldron, their their route concepts are terrible.
Like everything about their offense was awful, So it was
you only could put so much blame on the quarterback
(28:39):
when we saw games last year of Chicago where it'd
be two guys run into each other the same spot.
So like, so that's obvious, that's that's a coordinator error.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
That's not good.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
That's not good. That's not the highlight reel.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
You don't think Caleb will be significantly better this year.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I do think he will be better, Okay, I do,
but I do not think the Bears offense will be
as prolific as what Ryon's fans enjoyed the last couple
of years. I just think there's he he's got to
have some time to learn his personnel and to learn
that quarterback and what he likes, and like, man, he's
really good at that, and it's like he's not. I
(29:19):
don't like this. I haven't liked it all training camp,
so you know what, we're not running it.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
It's a fascinating point too, because we talk about fit
all the time. I mean, we're making that same comparison
here with Boenix and Sean Payton, what Jared Goff represented
in Detroit and what Caleb Williams represents in Chicago are
vastly different. Like people have certain talented quarterback but what
you think about in your mind's eye about Jared Goff
as a quarterback is sort of a he's even right.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
He's a pretty consistent guy. We talked about it.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Need a good run game, but you know he'll do
the things you need him to do. Caleb Williams creates,
and Caleb Williams is kind of an artist out there.
At least he was in college. He looked like he
held the ball too long. It looked like he was
in his headlinelast year he looked. No, he was okay,
he was.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
He was.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
So I'm fascinated as far as a fit goes, does
Caleb fit Ben Johnson? That's the part that's going to
be interesting to find out.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Well, yeah, I mean I think so. I mean, I
think that was one of the alluring things about the
possibility of taking the Chicago job, right, I mean, other
than you've already turned down head coaching opportunities the previous year.
So if you now again turned down opportunities, you're not
(30:31):
you know, you only get so many years where teams
are like, hey, this is one of the hot candidates,
hot coordinators. We're going to go after this guy. So
I think Ben Johnson had to go this year. But
I do think Caleb Williams and his presence in Chicago
would have been an enticement for any offensive minded head coach.
I mean, you're getting the guy who was the first
(30:52):
pick in the draft, like the year before, jerk.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Off was the first pick in the draft when Sean
mcvayh went there to LA and he got one a
super bow.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
And then he've got Matthew Stafford.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Well, because you know what, he didn't feel like that
he could run all of his offense with Jared Goff
and you fall in love with Matthew Stafford's arm and
a lot of stuff about Matthew Stafford and it turned
and you know, it turned out to be a good move.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
But I say this though, and what people have to
realize about installing an offense, there's layers. It doesn't all
just come the first year. You're building off of the
foundation that's going to get set this year, So you
won't just see everything you saw in Detroit last year,
because they have to get people actually to learn the offense.
(31:39):
And like Dave said they have to learn their own
players too. You have like you have speed in Detroit
with Jamison Williams. Who's your burner in Chicago?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Dj?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
But who's your burner in Chicago? Because Jameson Willmens speed fast,
but not as fast as Jameis and Williams. And that's
what they really used, like speed to get him.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Oh, DJ Moore is not as fast as Jamis, so
the top and there are very very few receivers in
football that are as fast as Jameison Williams.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
And that's what I'm saying. So, you know, do you
have to try to make little tweaks to your offense
based off of Hulia personnel?
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Don't go back. I'm just guessing you're going back and
looking at the combine. Time they're running forty is not
football time. That's in shorts and T shirts.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Well, Jameson didn't run a ford it because I think
he was hurt the combine.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Uns have to If everyone knows who runs a high
fort fast, guys don't need to run at the combine.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Did you run like a four to three five?
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Do you want to know?
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Four four something? So again, can we just replay the
phrase those uttered out of Ryan's pie hole yesterday, I
was wrong. Feel free to play that one.
Into a broadcast, Dave, I don't know like Courtland Sutton anymore.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I had it worked out for the Tennessee opener.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
But not Courtland Sudden down in the field. Look at
those supplis.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
What a catch?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Rick? Such supple hands hand midfield, you know, really supple hands.
Marvin Mims? You remember, remember Marvin Mims in.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
That touchdown catch against the Browns nine ninety three yards?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah? Why do you look at the show?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
I guess you can remember because you know, are you
on the field just like everybody else? Do you'll watching it?
I was actually sitting there on the field, like.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I say it like like this, this moment for me
is like the the definition of supple hands. I don't
know if we saw that audio or I.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Guess if you want to talk about you know when
I you know, I had the interception as the feelers,
you could go that way, you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Know what that that's a pretty good one.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
You know, you don't have to be a hater.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
You with that?
Speaker 5 (00:56):
Not?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Did you remember front?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
You know exactly?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
You probably know what the hell.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Week it was. Yeah, you want to know why? I
know what year it was because you got you My
daughter was born literally two days earlier.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So, okay, what what week, We'll see if we can
find it a week.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
It was the week so Evylyn was born in October. No,
she smiling. No, nev Laden said that it was November
twenty first. There was November twenty third, and from the
first it was the twenty third, because it was two
days after she won a Steelers the Steelers, and it
was she's about to be seven this year, so it's
twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Okay, all right, we're gonna see if we can see
we can find that. Oh yeah, I might as I
might have said, oh, what's supple hands, my big Shelby
Harris supple hands.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Yeah, you know, you know, there's other things you can
go to other than the same Marvin Bim's ketch. What
great catch, great run? You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
But she really won a great run because there was nobody.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Over.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
As soon as he caught it. It was a well.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
As soon as Denzel dove for it and didn't get it,
it was not a chance anybody else was going to
get on that. You know, I jogged my five yards.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
The only reason I think I could keep coming back to.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
It, other than it being one of the most memorable
plays of the season, which was it was, I mean,
a nice three yard touchdown in that game is thrown
from his.
Speaker 6 (02:17):
Own goal the Bill's game. Wasn't we call that in football?
We call that goal line line right inside the goal line?
I my brain said, I'm sorry, backed up my lot.
My brain said, line.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And what they're going to do hard count? And what
they do hard count? Then a then a shot.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, but it was a memorable play. And then you
said he was overrated afterwards. So that's why I keep
coming back to that is.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I just said he could have been better that game.
He wasn't that good that game he had he almost
threw what three inceptions that game?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Do you know why Shelby to work with us eventually? No,
I do. I want to stop this line and probably
question now this.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
You know, once again, I've been nothing but you know,
complimentary to bon Knicks, But that one game was one
of his worst games, and he did a lot better
the rest of the season. But the one thing which
I've always said and the stats prove it, is he
did struggle against man coverage last year, and we ran
a lot of man coverage against against the Broncos, and
(03:20):
you know, obviously when you run man coverage, you have
plays like the Marvin Mems one.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Even though that was against zone, I don't know what
it was because that it was zone. It was wide open,
it was it was like a two invert. So the corner,
the corner, Well, no, I'm the thing.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I'm no, I don't think because I think somebody.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Messed up, well my corner.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yeah, I can't think.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Of his name. Denzel Ward sinks back in on Memes
who's the inside receiver, and tries to make a play.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah. So that's a situation where you gotta have it,
you gotta make me. Got to have it, man, I'm
talking about you know what. It reminds me of it? Mindself.
Just play against the Colts. I think twenty seventeen Broncos
versus Colts. Was it twenty eighteen Brocos? I think it
was twenty eighteen, actually, Broncos versus Colts in Indianapolis, and
(04:14):
we are you know, we had a chance to win
the game and Vom misses a sack on Jam That.
I remember that, and that's pretty much was the end
of the game. After that, it was I'm talking about
I'm thinking, oh, we're good. And then and then they
carry goes and.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Kicks a That was the game that Joe Flacco after
the game went off on the OC.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Yes, God, who is that received?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
We're not We're not even what are we not trying
to win in the last two minutes of the game?
Why would we? In other words, I'm paraphrasing the words,
but when I heard his comments, I'm thinking, oh, this
is not going to be received.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Well, I'm trying to remember who that wide receiver was.
He's a little little guy. He was beat for the Broncos.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Are you talking about Colts.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
T Yeah, y Hilton, Yes, yes, god, you guys, you
guys had had that game.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Oh, trust me, like honestly, that that right there is
the pity me of my Broncos career all five years.
There's a bunch of games that, you know, looking back
at it should have been wins, but then we just
it's one or two things that we don't do as
a team and their losses. And that's right there shows
you how slim that margin is between winning and losing.
(05:32):
Like that Colts game we're just talking about, we are
like vomn out of one hundred times that is a
strip sack fumble, like, you know, QB sack and we're
not talking and that's a win. But that one time
Jacoby Brissett broke that tackle and made that play. So man,
(05:53):
that's that's football.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
That is football. There wasn't.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Loon said that Bonix was was first in the league
at and I think it might surprise you and we
can talk about that coming up, sort of talking about
the twenty seventeen season. Hear of the break for the
Broncos Welcome back, Dave Logan, Ryan and rachelebe Harris. All right,
so there was a stat and I heard this the
other day on a podcast, there was a staff for
(06:19):
bon Nicks that, yeah, and maybe we talked about him
if we haven't, but he was number one in the
NFL last year in passing yards outside of the pocket.
And so now, on one hand, you say, well, it's
kind of cool, it's kind of a cool stat. In
the other hand, it's it's an acknowledgement that he abandoned
the pocket, if you will, he moved outside the pocket.
(06:41):
And so I guess the question I have for you
is that something that if you're Sean Payton, that you
accentuate you say, well, this is part of his game.
Let's let's go ahead and build on this, or is
this something that you'd like to see him kind of
maybe grow out of and stick to the plan inside
the pocket bit more.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I think it would depend on going back and charting
every single one of his throws. When you say abandon,
that has a negative connotation, so it maybe I'm not Maybe,
I'm certain if we went back and evaluated every one
of his throws and the Broncos have done that, they
probably have two handfuls times two of throws where it's like, hey,
(07:18):
you didn't have to leave here, either climb the pocket
or slide in the pocket. But that I mean, that's
how quarterbacks can get better, and that's how offensive linemen
have better stats at the end of the season, because
there are some quarterbacks and I didn't think Bo did
this a lot last year, but there's some quarterbacks that
run themselves into sacks. Well, the sack goes against the
(07:42):
offensive lineman or the offensive line in general, but the
quarterback can really help. Just my understanding, you know where
pressure is, and if you have edge pressure and that
those three in front of you are solid, you can
slide up in the pocket. You can maneuver in the pocket.
I mean guy like like Peyton Manning, even Tom Brady.
I mean, neither one of those guys was a great athlete.
(08:05):
Both of them were like world class at doing what
I just described. Man, I.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Just remember watching, you know, all the time Brady film
and whenever you're about to play Tom Brady, and the
first thing they always say is, guys, you know, we
don't know exactly how he does it, but he moves
around the pocket extremely well. Tom Brady was a pro
at avoiding pressure, stepping up, stepping to the side, you know.
The one thing that he didn't do much though, was
(08:32):
step back, you know, and now in a lot of
now and most most quarterbacks when they want to leave
the pocket, they backpedal and start doing Brady's finding ways
to keep his eyes downfield and move up and around
the pocket just to buy just enough time to throw
the ball. And my only you know, gripe I would
(08:54):
say about you know this bow, nick stat is you're
supposed to have the best old line, one of the
best old lines in the league, right, true, So is
it are you leaving the pocket just because that's what
you're used to doing, or are you actually doing are
you actually have to leave the pocket? And I think
that's really the question you have to see is you
have to watch it and be like, all right, is
(09:14):
he just running out of the pocket for no reason
or is he actually getting pressured.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I didn't see. I didn't see running out of the
pocket for no reason too many times, I think, I mean,
especially for a young quarterback, a rookie quarterback, he had
what I believe was unusual poise because I mean most,
maybe not most, a whole bunch of young quarterbacks when
(09:39):
they first get the first time and they play the
whole season whatever, man, they're good, and then they get
hit and then somebody hits them under the chin, and
then all of a sudden, it's like like, no, I'm
not standing in here and taking that. If I start
to see flash as of color, I am out, especially
if you're a good athlete, and bon Nick's is so.
(10:01):
I mean, like the throw he makes to Memes that
the ball was in the air sixty five yards fourth
quarter in Cincinnati, going right to left. I mean he
got out of the pocket that time right and threw
a touchdown. So that would those stats would go, you know,
on your number by design I'm trying to I'm trying
to remember the play. I I can't tell you that.
(10:25):
I can't. I can't remember if it was a design
pocket roll or not.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I want to feel like it was, because it felt
it felt like maybe not a full boot, but it
felt like it was a boot action like he.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Was you know, he didn't boot. It wasn't a boot.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Play action.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
He might might have been a design pocket move. I
just we'll pull it up.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, to your point that like that goes to part
of it. So again, what you're saying is that's not
all a rookie taking off.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
That's right when he's maybe.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Supposed to try to sit in there and study it
a little bit more and be in the presence of,
as you mentioned, one of the best offensive lines.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And you also don't want to penalize a guy like
bo Nicks for making some plays with his legs as
long as he understands and goes back and looks at it.
I mean, you're not. You know where I thought Russ
the previous two years got in trouble is I thought
he predetermined that I'm getting out of the pocket, and
(11:32):
I thought he was more comfortable moving and kind of
pinballing instead of just reading the progressions of whatever the
concept you have called right, Russell would go back a
lot of times, and I mean he was looking to
bounce around because he made so many big, big plays
in Seattle that were offscript. And even Russell Wilson or
(11:55):
anybody else, you can do that in the NFL, but
you cannot do that on a deady basis.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Here was the actual touchdown as you as you called
it against Cincinnati.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Bo takes a snap play, fakes, rolls to his rights,
bow looks downfield, throws a deep ball downfield.
Speaker 7 (12:11):
He's got mimes a man fix and touch cuts up Denver.
What a fro by Bow nicks fifty one yards.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
Marvin Mims beat the two safeties Jordan Battle and Gino Stone.
Nick through it from about the forty Mims caught it
eight yards deep in the end zone. That ball was
in the air sixty eight yards.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I want to see the video.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
Yeah, I want to pull the video. Will you be
able to tell in the video, but you signed it.
He rolls right.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
He did absolutely roll to his right. I just don't
know if that was by design or not.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Okay, all right, we'll pull that up through the break.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I have another kind of football quarterback coach question I
want to ask you guys.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
We'll get to that coming up next.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
You know what the craziest part about that was is
while the play was going on, like I just felt
Ben Roethlisberger staring at me. He was like looking behind me.
But I was like, we didn't.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I don't remember. You didn't really like really jump jump
in the air and just like snatched it out of
mid air. I threw it right.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
I told you, he was making eye contact with you
the whole time, and then he just threw. He didn't
even throw, he just like lofted it up there. It
was literally I could not believe it. And then it
happened to be. It was two days after my daughter
was born, so I'm like, it was just meant to be,
absolutely and then went crazy, Bob, we took the ball.
My daughter has newborn pictures with the ball.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Oh nice.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I have the jersey hanging up with you know, all
that stuff in the house, and you know, it's just like,
you know, it's just a really cool story to be
able to tell Evelyn. You know every you know, every
year and everything. You know, It's it's really cool.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
That is really cool.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Well in that offense, man, I mean you remember that
time with Antonio Brown and.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Oh god they were.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
And so you know actually what I I My wife
mentioned this, I was like, oh yeah, I credited myself
for breaking up Pittsburgh's big three. There it is because right,
I know, because right after that, you gotta remember Antonio
Brown started going off on Ben Roethlisberger being like, how
are you gonna blame that on me? Saying I ran
around wrong route? You threw it to the d lineman, yeah,
(14:23):
joint And then I mean he did throw that like
right to you.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I know, I'll take it.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Hell yeah every time well he threw here, like it
was just such a bad throw because I remember because
Roby Bradley Roby he was on a d and said
going to the pick was like if it wasn't virgin, yeah,
if you watch the play, bro was like, no, he
(14:49):
thought he was about to get about to get the pick,
and it just fell right into my hands.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Best hands in the league.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It is supple hands in the league.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Five six nine zeros or KWA Comma sparate off text line.
If you want to interact with anything from the program,
we'll get back into some of the Nuggets moves and
some of the optimism. Holy cal the betting markets are
really loving the Nuggets right now, is not only in
the Western Conference but overall for a possible championship next year.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
So we'll talk about that coming up here in a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
But I was listening to the Athletic Football podcast today
and they had a really cool debate about are.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
We entering an era where you could make the.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Argument that a play caller, an offensive play caller, may
be more valuable than the quarterback. And I, initially, on
face value, I thought that was kind of wild to
think about, because we've been conditioned for so many years
saying you go out, you try to find that elite quarterback,
the play you know, the playmaker on the field. But
you start to think about, well, the Sean mcvays and
(15:45):
Kevin O'Connell and Kyle Shanahan, Sean Payton here in Denver,
Anthony A sorry in Kansas City, Gosh, Any Reid, I
almost called him Anthony Andy Reid. Point is, yeah, Ben Johnson,
You start to think about like what those teams are
and what those guys represent for their team, And I
(16:06):
don't know, maybe there's a bit of an argument that
the era is now tilting towards the play caller.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I don't think so. I mean, I think the play
designer and then the play caller and sometimes it's the
same guy, are really important. But you still have to
have one of those guys, right, I mean you still
have to have I mean, here's what I would say.
I mean Ben Johnson, I love that offense with Detroit
(16:36):
to the last few years, he's been very creative. He'd
been a little tricky sometimes I think he gets a
little bit too tricky, but you know what, they've been
very good in Detroit. The resurgence of the Lions is
I think many people that live in Detroit thought they
never see that, never see it. That said, now he
goes to Chicago, he's the head coach. You've got the
(16:56):
first pick in the draft, albeit a guy that's going
into his second year. You think he'll miss a beat.
You think Chicago's offense will be as good. He's got
the first pick in the draft two years ago. You
think they'll be as good as Detroit was because you
have the same play designer and same play caller. Yes,
(17:19):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
I think it actually believed they will be better on offense,
and Detroit will actually take a step back.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I think Detroit may take a step back, and I
think Chicago may be better. Whether sure, hoping they're better
than they were last year, But I'm talking about do
we think the Bears this upcoming fall will be as
good as the Lions have been offensively in the last
two years? And I say no. And the play caller
and play designer is exactly the same. I think that
(17:47):
those two roles are key to a really good football team.
But you still have to have that guy, right. Andy
Reid is regarded as one of the great play callers
play designer of all time. When he was in Philadelphia,
he was still thought to be a really good coach,
maybe even a great coach. They could not win the
(18:08):
big game. What's the difference? They had Donovan McNabb who
was a really good player, and he's had Patrick Mahomes
who is a great, like you know, generational talent at quarterbacks.
That true.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Listen.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I think those are all really good points. And I
don't know if there's a right or wrong in all
of this. I think I tend to lean more.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Where you're going.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Well, then I feel better about that.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
But look, but he got out Alex Smith, right, I mean,
Alex Smith was could considered again another first overall pick,
considered a bit more of a journeyman quarterback, especially by
the time he got to Kansas City he was traded there.
He did a really good job with Alex job without offense.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
But they well, how did I mean Kansas City didn't
didn't They may have won a playoff game, they may
have beat the Colt I think they beat the Colts
with Alex Smith, but Kansas City didn't make any that
I can remember deep runs into the into the playoffs
with Alex Smith and even Andy Reid.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
No, they didn't. It was it was a regular season
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
But that was also any read up until he finally
got Mahomes and then he finally kind of got over
the hump. I'm just saying regular season they were they
were a house man, I mean, they were incredible, and
so I guess I even bring it here locally for
a second. Like the success that the Broncos are having
with Bo Nicks and Sean Payton. If you, if you
asked Broncos fans, who is that more attributed to of
(19:26):
the two of them?
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Who Are they going to say, m.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Have you lost Broncos fans? Yeah, they're going to say
a quarterback because of what they.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Just went through.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Oh, I think it's the opposite.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
You're talking about who's more who's more important? Yes, I
think you're going to have to say quarterback because you
saw Sean Payton with Russell Wilson. You saw Sean Payton
with bow Knicks. I think that the recency bias of
Russell Wilson is going to make you say bow Knicks.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Shelby's absolutely right. I mean Sean Payton, I think is
one of those guys play designer, play caller, and he's
really really good at it. He had Russell Wilson and
then the next year for him, he had bow Nicks. Really,
there was no comparison in terms of Now there was
(20:19):
a comparison in terms of some of the numbers because
Russell in his last year here, first year with Sean,
his numbers were a little misleading, but they were actually decent,
maybe even above average.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
A lot of sacks, but otherwise, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
But I don't think anybody in the right mind that
watches Broncos football or hopefully listens, would say the seventeen
games that we saw in Sean Payton's first year here
and Russell Wilson a quarterback, we're pretty much the same.
They looked the same offensively as they did last year.
I don't think anybody would say that.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
I'm still a believer that though, even though in this
one case, you know, I know people are going to
choose quarterback. I'm a big believer though that if to
overcome back coaching so too. Yeah, just look at I'm
not saying this is bad coaching, but if you look
at Jared Goff's stats with the Rams compared to the Lions,
(21:13):
so specifically with Ben Johnson, you know, because Jared Goff
did have a fire like his second his second and
third year in the league when no one really can
stop the McVeigh oppins. Jared Goff had two of them,
you know, two of his best years in the league.
But those barely come close to his last year with
(21:36):
Ben Johnson, where he threw seventy two forty six hundred
yards thirty seven touchdowns twelven exceptions. I think it depends
on who the quarterback is.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Jared Goff though I'd say this about him, and he's
like a lot of other quarterbacks. He's the guy that
is so much better when he has a running game
because he's he's in the play pass part of throwing
the ball. He's really good. It's one of the things really,
when you think about the Patriots when they played the
Rams and the Super Bowl in that low scoring game,
(22:09):
when when the Patriots game plan for Jared Goff was
they played an eight and at times nine man front
and said, listen, you're not running the ball. If you're
going to throw it, it's going to be straight dropped back.
And that's really that was not what Jared Goff was about.
He got a little better with the Lions, but he's
(22:31):
still he's a play action pass quarterback.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
First, you're not wrong about that, because once Todd Gurley
got hurt, Jared Goff's you know, numbers in LA dramatically declined.
That Super Bowl you're talking about, Todd Gurley was already
hood and so they're like, you're going to have to
find someone else to run the ball, and they couldn't.
Jared Golf good so then, but I believe though, if
(22:56):
you put up Patrick Mahomes in that same situation, he'll.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
Still no, no fair. And there are some quarterbacks.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I think that sort of defy this argument to this conversation.
I guess when it comes to the Sean Payton and
Bonnicks thing, and this isn't meant to be a pejority
of I'm not trying to put down Boone Knicks. This
is a The pairing of them is what makes it magic,
what makes it good. And if Boon Knicks went somewhere else,
I mean, you think we've had the same conversation about
(23:23):
Alan San Francisco with Kyle Shanahan, right, and saying, well,
different quarterbacks that he's been paired with, they may not
be as successful elsewhere, but Kyle brings out the best
of them. Kevin o'connelly, brock Perdy, Kevin O'Connell with Sam Darnold.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Last year brings out the best in whatever.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Quarterback he had the past or not for trying out loud,
brought out the best in him. So I'm saying, if
bo Knicks went somewhere else, is he the same guy. Well,
if he went to Kevin O'Connell or Kyle Shanahan, yeah
probably he's probably really good. But if he went to
as you said, maybe a bad coach or bad coaching well.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Coach that doesn't actually try to learn what you do
well and actually try to execute it in games. Yeah,
you're going to.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Struggle, so that, I guess that's the the crux.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Of it, if you will, is that where I say
I lean that Sean Payton is, I guess, the architect
of what we're doing here about you?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I agree with that statement. He is the architect of
what the Broncos are doing here. And it's it's hard
to say you only get one. Would you take the
quarterback or would you take the play designer slash play caller?
You need you need both?
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Right? If you put If you put Sean Payton in
Cleveland this year, no disrespect Shelby. And he's got to
pick between Joe Flacco, Kenny Pickett, Shador Sanders, and Dylan Gabriel.
Dylan Gabriel, I'm not sure Sean has the kind of
(24:56):
year that he had last year with bon Nix. Now,
I do think Cleveland would be better. I think they'd
be better on offense because he'd identified which one of
these guys are we going with and then let's dial
up stuff that that guy can can be best at.
Shelby's right, and we talked. Even when Al was doing
the show, we all we all were in agreement. I mean,
(25:18):
coaching matters, whether it's high school, college, NFL, what have you.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Not.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Every coach is the same. And you think of every
coach when you say he's an NFL coach immediately, because
I was like this forever. You think, man, that guy's
a brilliant, brilliant coach.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Maybe, and there's a bunch of them in the league.
But there's there's guys that don't fit into that category
in the NFL as well.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Well, you know, with Jared Golf, and I keep going
to Jared Golf because obviously, you know, I'm thinking about
how Ben Johnson leaving him to go to go to Chicago,
I think, and also, like you guys said, you said,
all right, Jared goffon type of quarterback that needs a
run game. So in that idea, in that aspect, Jared
golf stats should be just fine, but they won't be
(26:08):
you know, in that aspect if you're really thinking of
it like that, then everything there should be no difference
between you know, obviously Jared golf stats from the years
before with the relions to now, which I think there
will be a drop off and his stats because the
creativity of Ben Johnson's offense. But also I do believe
(26:30):
with Caleb Williams the issue with them last year they
weren't forcing the run game. And I love how Ben
Johnson is created for his runs and his passes. You know,
so that right there is going to open up for
Kateleb Williams. He's going to have his career best here.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Let me ask you from a defensive perspective, I think
you kind of touched on something very interesting there. When
you guys are studying an opponent, how much of I
guess the percentage of it is the study of the
scheme versus the study of the player.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Uh So, it's a mix because obviously, when you play
a quarterback like an Aaron Rodgers or somebody can change
to play at the line of screamage, So you got
to study what also what Aaron Rodgers likes to do.
But a lot of it has to be the scheme
because a lot of these quarterbacks do not have the
veto power. We're in an age now where a lot
of those veteran quarterbacks are not in the league anymore.
(27:20):
You do have a couple, but most quarterbacks, the play
is called, they're running the play.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
So so does that sound like the scheme and the
designer maybe has a little bit we're gonna make.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
You still gotta have that quick decision making in order
to get the ball to whoever.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
You know, that's the thing.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
You see one safety up top, you know it's either
cover three or it is covered or you know, cover one.
You know what I mean, Like, you gotta be you
gotta be able to make that decision quick still, so
that decision making will always be on the quarterback. Okay,
but I do remember those days where, you know, the
the Rams days with I keep bringing back to Jared
(27:56):
Golf where Seanan Vay's telling them, hey, these guy's will
be open. Throw the you know what I mean, you
do have some coordinators to be like, I don't care,
throw the ball here and it works, you know. I mean,
that's the type of thing that works. So it's a
very interesting concept. But I do believe that obviously you
need both the quarterback and the coordinator. Sure, I just
(28:18):
think that the coordinator is extremely important because like we
saw in Chicago last year with them after they find
after they fired Shane Waldron, their their route concepts are terrible.
Like everything about their offense was awful, So it was
you only could put so much blame on the quarterback
(28:39):
when we saw games last year of Chicago where it'd
be two guys run into each other the same spot.
So like, so that's obvious, that's that's a coordinator error.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
That's not good.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
That's not good. That's not the highlight reel.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
You don't think Caleb will be significantly better this year.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I do think he will be better, Okay, I do,
but I do not think the Bears offense will be
as prolific as what Ryon's fans enjoyed the last couple
of years. I just think there's he he's got to
have some time to learn his personnel and to learn
that quarterback and what he likes, and like, man, he's
really good at that, and it's like he's not. I
(29:19):
don't like this. I haven't liked it all training camp,
so you know what, we're not running it.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
It's a fascinating point too, because we talk about fit
all the time. I mean, we're making that same comparison
here with Boenix and Sean Payton, what Jared Goff represented
in Detroit and what Caleb Williams represents in Chicago are
vastly different. Like people have certain talented quarterback but what
you think about in your mind's eye about Jared Goff
as a quarterback is sort of a he's even right.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
He's a pretty consistent guy. We talked about it.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Need a good run game, but you know he'll do
the things you need him to do. Caleb Williams creates,
and Caleb Williams is kind of an artist out there.
At least he was in college. He looked like he
held the ball too long. It looked like he was
in his headlinelast year he looked. No, he was okay,
he was.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
He was.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
So I'm fascinated as far as a fit goes, does
Caleb fit Ben Johnson? That's the part that's going to
be interesting to find out.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Well, yeah, I mean I think so. I mean, I
think that was one of the alluring things about the
possibility of taking the Chicago job, right, I mean, other
than you've already turned down head coaching opportunities the previous year.
So if you now again turned down opportunities, you're not
(30:31):
you know, you only get so many years where teams
are like, hey, this is one of the hot candidates,
hot coordinators. We're going to go after this guy. So
I think Ben Johnson had to go this year. But
I do think Caleb Williams and his presence in Chicago
would have been an enticement for any offensive minded head coach.
I mean, you're getting the guy who was the first
(30:52):
pick in the draft, like the year before, jerk.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Off was the first pick in the draft when Sean
mcvayh went there to LA and he got one a
super bow.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
And then he've got Matthew Stafford.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Well, because you know what, he didn't feel like that
he could run all of his offense with Jared Goff
and you fall in love with Matthew Stafford's arm and
a lot of stuff about Matthew Stafford and it turned
and you know, it turned out to be a good move.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
But I say this though, and what people have to
realize about installing an offense, there's layers. It doesn't all
just come the first year. You're building off of the
foundation that's going to get set this year, So you
won't just see everything you saw in Detroit last year,
because they have to get people actually to learn the offense.
(31:39):
And like Dave said they have to learn their own
players too. You have like you have speed in Detroit
with Jamison Williams. Who's your burner in Chicago?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Dj?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
But who's your burner in Chicago? Because Jameson Willmens speed fast,
but not as fast as Jameis and Williams. And that's
what they really used, like speed to get him.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Oh, DJ Moore is not as fast as Jamis, so
the top and there are very very few receivers in
football that are as fast as Jameison Williams.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
And that's what I'm saying. So, you know, do you
have to try to make little tweaks to your offense
based off of Hulia personnel?
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Don't go back. I'm just guessing you're going back and
looking at the combine. Time they're running forty is not
football time. That's in shorts and T shirts.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Well, Jameson didn't run a ford it because I think
he was hurt the combine.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Uns have to If everyone knows who runs a high
fort fast, guys don't need to run at the combine.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Did you run like a four to three five?
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Do you want to know?
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Four four something? So again, can we just replay the
phrase those uttered out of Ryan's pie hole yesterday, I
was wrong. Feel free to play that one.
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