April 28, 2020 • 44 mins
NBA star Kevin Love joins Sammy Jaye via Zoom to talk about his mental health journey, his basketball career, and what it's like to put that career on the line to pursue healing from anxiety and depression. Thanks to our special guest, Sammy's older brother Mark, who stops by to talk basketball stats, healthy expressions of masculinity, and Game of Thrones with Kevin & Sammy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey, guys, it's Sammy J. And welcome to this week's episode.
Not only is this week's episode so special, but it
is our season finale. Guys, that is crazy to say.
This week we have NBA All Star and mental health
advocate Kevin Love. We talk about his basketball career, we
kick off Mental Health Awareness Months by talking about his
mental health dream from his anxiety and depression. And we
(00:29):
also have a special guest appearance coming up in this episode,
So stay tuned. As always, I cannot wait to hear
your feedback and I look forward to seeing you next season.
Thank you for coming on my podcast, Kevin. That is
crazy to say. Thanks for having me. This is uh.
I'm glad we got all this figured out and now
we're rolling huh. This is great. I know I like
(00:50):
your hat. Are you Yankees fan? I am. I have
been a long time Yankees fan, mostly because of Derek Jeter,
but also I have an apartment in New York now
lived in UH had most of my off seasons in
Los Angeles. Summers we typically take to travel around, but
the last two summers I've been in New York. So
(01:10):
I'm trying to uh, I guess become a new Yorker
by wearing this hat. But I've been told that takes
you at least ten years to actually be able to
call yourself a New Yorker. So I'm I'm on my way,
but I'm still um, I guess at a very youthful
stage in this. So well, my cousins called themselves New
Yorkers and they've lived here for two years, So you
(01:30):
can call yourself in you Okay, I'm an honorary New Yorker,
I think. So wait, so where is your favorite place
in New York? Like? What area? Because I live here?
Oh so I'm I really really like downtown. I feel
like especially in Tribeca or the West Village or Chelsea
or soho, just because it feels like even Dumbo as well.
(01:52):
You feel like you're almost you know, in Europe in
some places, like it just feels like you're in a uh,
you know, a lot different place than you would be elsewhere,
especially domestically here in the States. So I just love
the culture. I love the diversity. I love um you know,
the people, the food, and lest just goes on and on.
(02:13):
It's just such a great culture and really strong place
to feel like you're you're a part of even like
I said in my second year, having been here, see,
I want to go to California. You should. That's where
what's holding you back? Just go? Oh? Trust me, college
is a few years away. My dad actually went to
u c l. A amazing there you go. Look at
(02:34):
this right here. I know we're not doing the whole
video thing, but my U c l A hat right
here next to me on my desk, so I always
keep it close to me. Well, not only are you
my first NBA all start, but you're my first athlete
on my podcast. It's very exciting again and I feel honored. Likewise,
thanks for having me. I'm probably the tallest as well,
(02:55):
right I'm six Well that's contract hide. I'm probably about
six nine. Yeah, okay, so I'm five to on a
good day, Okay, when I'm always true. So do you
remember what age you were when you reach six ft?
What age was I when I reach six ft? I
think I crossed the six ft h barrier probably when
(03:21):
I was going into seventh grade, so I was like
twelve or thirteen at the time. I only know that
because we had our our nationals was in that year
for basketball, was in Memphis, Tennessee, and they had you know,
a lot of the tallest players there and some, I
mean some of these kids. It's crazy when you're thirteen
(03:41):
or fourty years old, they're hitting their girl spurts and
people that you know will go through high school and
be tall and after that they don't play anymore. But
they're six five six six six seven. I mean, it's
really really crazy to see across the country how many
uh you know, how many kids actually reached that size.
It's wild. How many times a day do people comment
on your head? A lot? But in the circles I
(04:03):
run in and and the friends that I have, I'm
I'm fortunate to not be uh listen. Do sometimes do
I wish that I had a few extra inches in
my height to help me with my sport, of course?
But I actually enjoy being at the uh you know,
kind of league average or slightly above um, because then
I don't necessarily stick out like a sword thomb. I
(04:24):
can still navigate and get my way through public and
not have to, you know, worry about that sort of thing.
And I can actually still fit in an airline seat,
which is nice. So um, yeah, it's lovely. It's the
little things in life. Right, So that's a that's a huge,
huge thing for me. Some clothes fit me, some clothes don't.
But um, you know, luckily I make it work. I
(04:45):
cut the sleeves off and you know I have a
short sleeve shirt. What's the big deal? See, it's perfect, perfect.
So how have you been amid COVID nineteen? Are you
staying home? Stay chill? Yeah, staying home super chill. If
you've ever gone on any of my social platforms, you've
seen my dog Vester. She's like the best thing ever.
I got her last year, My girlfriend Kay and I
(05:07):
we got her last year when when I was hurt,
So I had some time to be at home a
little bit more spending a little bit more time, uh
just here at my house like I have been throughout
COVID nineteen. So uh, you know, been able to develop
like a it's such a funny thing, like it really
is man's best friend. Dogs are really man's best friend.
(05:27):
She's like a little human. She's a she's a vis
last so she's a Hungarian hunting dog. But they call
him the quintessential uh velcrow dogs. So she just wants
to be right next to you, whether she's eating her meal,
whether she's chewing on her bone, whether she has her toys,
she's either doing that, playing with you or laying on
your chest. So it's like an ultimate uh like anxiety
(05:50):
medicine for me, but also like for for my job.
I'm sweating making sure that I'm getting exercise. I think
it's huge doing this type of stuff, like virtually making
sure that I'm communicating. Uh. Sometimes it's you know, I'm
sure you guys have dealt with it too, like super
hard to get a grasp of because even zoom. I
hadn't zoomed until like three weeks ago, and yeah, my
(06:13):
schools just google me it's right, And I hadn't done um,
what was it. I hadn't done Skype in like ten years.
Who does think it's so I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I
think it's overrated, right, I mean I was like I
came through clearly, but I'm like, okay, now I have
to figure out Skype and these I G lives. I
keep sending like I want to connect with you. I
(06:34):
want to connect with you. I want to connect with you.
I go and I come back and like I'm trying
to get stress. Stress so much because you're just talking
to yourself and then there's a delay. The delay is horrible.
And that's a big thing for me too, is like
having to turn the camera around now because I'm always
like shooting outward and now I have to turn it
in and you actually have to have to talk and
(06:54):
look at my face and keep this conversation going. So
it's like a funny time to navigate. Uh. And I'll
keep using that word. But coming out of this, I
imagine we'll in the way that we interact will all
change in a in a very very big way. So
in that it's going to be interesting to see the
tools and the and the uh, the things that come
(07:15):
out of it from from this perspective. Yeah, you mentioned
working out. How are you doing that? I am very
fortunate because I I first of all, I love where
I live. I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, and I invested just
in stuff to take care of my body at the house,
like every modality I could possibly have. So I have
like a a stationary bike, I have a self propelled treadmill.
(07:37):
I have a versa climber, I have free weights, I
have bands, Um, you know, I have things where I
can ice my legs and so on and so forth.
So like all that stuff, I've just said, Okay, how
can I get the best out of myself? Even if
I'm at home or I have an off day, or
I want to treat my body. I typically wake up
and kind of go through head to toe and say, Okay,
what do I what does my body need today in
(07:59):
order to function at the highest level? Because if I
if I feel bad in my body, my mind is
all out of whack. So I have to in the morning,
I usually take a deep breath in and out and say, Okay,
what do what do I need today? And it took
me a long long time to figure that out, but
I'm thankful that I did, especially for yeah, my sport.
(08:20):
But I also don't want to be that old man
that's hunched over when I'm sixty seventy eight years old
and hardly able to walk. I want to be able
to play with my my kids and hopefully my grandchildren
if I'm able to see that old age too. Uh um,
you know, be able to be very active. And today
did you meet with the team for the first time?
Is that what I heard? So we actually did. We
(08:42):
This is the second time we've done a zoom workout together. No,
it Actually what was unbelievable was after the first one.
I I called our head strength coach Derek Millinder afterwards,
and he was the one who set it up, and
I said, I'm in and we you know, got about
(09:02):
uh two thirds of our team on there, and we thought.
I thought to myself, got how is how is this
going to work? Like it's you. We're gonna have all
these people talking, we're gonna try to have music on,
We're gonna be trying to do our exercises. But I
called him afterwards and said that was I said, that
even went better than expected. That was great. So everybody
was basically saying, let's do it again. So we set
it up for Tuesdays and are the workout so then
(09:24):
Thursdays we actually have yoga together as well. So we're
finding ways to not only, you know, stay connected, but
to stay in some kind of shape. So if basketball
does then resume, that we won't be so far behind
the eight ball. We'll be able to get back into it,
hopefully as seamless as we can. During this time, How
is are you able to give like a basketball quarter?
(09:46):
How are you doing that? No? It's funny you asked
that too, because I just had a teammate asked me
today if you know if Kevin have even getting any
shots up, Like there's no gyms that are open. This
has probably been the longest I've ever gone without doing
it since I started playing organized basketball, and that was
at a very very young age. So you should get
those hoops that you put on the door. My brother
(10:07):
has one and just like because that's what he does.
He just throws at his watch. Oh, by the way,
I love that. But I'm such a child, like you
know that. People tell me all the time, show me
the upside of being mature, and I'll consider it. Or
I tell people that, uh huh. But it's one of
those things where I'd have like the little Tykes hoop
or I'd put that on the top of the door,
and then it's like Kate walked in front of it.
(10:29):
I just go and dunk over because that's that's like
what I did with my dad and did with my
brother all the time. Because right next to uh actually
right outside of my room and my sister's room, we
had like a really really tiny hoop and it was
broken down and if you hung on the rim, it
was for sure going to break and it was rusted over.
But if anybody walked in front of that, I just
(10:50):
go up and just try and dunk on everybody. That's
every time I enter my brother's room, I tell you
he will literally. Actually, I don't mean to brag, but
I've gone a few really good shots, and we call
it sweet shooting Sammy. And I think I could. I
don't know, maybe I could beat you. You'll see how
you know what on that on that hoop you it
(11:10):
would be probably a good matchup. But if you try
and duck on me, I'm really I'm gonna hard value.
Nobody is safe. Okay. Somebody I've always been curious about
is when one was the first time you, like, do
you remember the time when you fell in love with basketball? Really?
Since I can remember my my dad, he was a UH.
(11:34):
He went to Morningside High School in Inglewood, California, and
he was an All American there. He was a two
time All American at the University of Oregon, and UH
was the ninth pick in the draft by the Baltimore Boil.
It's like, you know, a hundred years ago, fifty years ago,
I think it was I mean, it was just it's
almost fifty or going on fifty years now, so that's
crazy crazy. So, um, basketball was always in my blood.
(11:57):
And I think naturally if you have a uh ah
father figure, who is I mean, he's he's my size,
if not taller, and um, you know it was really
a strong man and he put the ball in my
hand at an early age. They knew, the doctors knew
I was going to be tall, and I think that
even got me more excited when I had the presence
(12:19):
of mine to understand that, hey, I'm I'm gonna be tall.
I love this game. I can't get enough of basketball. Um,
it was just something that was always, like I said,
in my blood. There's there's no other way for me
to explain it other than it just right away it
clicked for me. And I just loved having a ball
in my hand and love shooting and even we have
to um, well now it's as I moved along in
(12:45):
my career, was just it was always the competitiveness and
seeing how you know, how much I could squeeze out
of this game. And I still feel like I have
so much to give. That's why I, like I said,
I invest so much in my body and in self care.
But I don't know, there's just some for me, there's
some overall, you know, beauty and a unique brand of storytelling,
(13:08):
and you just don't know how these games are going
to play out. And it's been a wild ride and
I've enjoyed it so much. So let's switch gears for
a sec. As you know, May is mental Health Awareness month,
and you have been an incredible activist for mental health
talking about your anxiety, depression and more. You've been in
(13:29):
high pressure situations, that's what your job is. You won
a gold medal in two thousand twelve Olympics. You've wonned
and be I'll start five times. You've won the NBA
Championship with Cleveland, and I know you've been very vocal
on your mental health journey. And I'm curious because you've
had so much pressure as a play or why was
it that? What was it just two years ago? What
(13:53):
do you think it was that made you that pressure
come too much and made that panic attack happen. I
think it was a lot of things. And you know,
I always try to establish and I talked about the
pillars in my life as well as my core competencies
and those uh, you know, are very much on the
same wavelength. So I think it was like friends and family.
It was those relationships. It was outside of basketball, whether
(14:17):
it be um, you know, business or other things outside
that I was working on, um, you know, things in
my personal life, uh you know, basketball. You know, there's
a number of pillars that just continued to fall and
felt like the world was caving in on me at
a certain point in my life, and my anxiety and
(14:39):
depression was was something that I had acknowledged individually and
still tried to curb it or make it seem far away.
And there was things that I did to do that,
especially all the way until I was, you know, years old,
when it really came to a place where it was
extremely unhealthy and I was, um, you know, trying to
(15:02):
figure out where I was going to go with my
life in general and on the basketball court. But basketball
was really the last pillar to fall. And with that,
there was we were going into a season where we
had made a major trade, We had expectations of being
a championship level team again going to the finals, and
(15:26):
we started out and I had very very high hopes
because I then became the second guy on the team,
the guy that was going to play, uh you know,
Robin Who then Lebron James Batman. So I I had
a lot of expectations as well as for myself. So
we go into the season and we're just really bad.
I mean, we're not bad, we're to start the season.
(15:47):
We're really bad. So that was the last one to
fall for me. And I had that major moment um,
you know, of a panic attack on the floor, whereas
in the past if I got y Yeah, no, it's terrifying,
and I initially thought I was having cardiac arrest, and
you know, I couldn't catch my breath and my whole
chest is getting super tight and I'm shaking and I
(16:09):
end up on the floor. I can't get oxygen so
extremely extremely and I can't think straight. I'm like looking
for something that's not ever. Yeah, it gets me worked up,
even just like talking about it when it happened. I'm
surprised you've done it so much because people ask you
about it all the time, and it's impressive that you
recount it because I'm lucky. I've only had a few.
(16:29):
But it feels like the world is just caving in,
and it's the most terrifying feeling I've ever felt, and
it's a fight or flight response where you can't really fight.
And so I was trying to get the hell out
of there and trying to and I didn't want anybody
to see. I think that was the biggest But I
was so afraid that people were going to find out that, um,
(16:50):
you know, it's it's like I had something wrong with me,
or that I was gonna be looked at his weak
or my teammates couldn't trust me, or my livelihood was
going to be in jeopardy because, uh, the front my
front office at the at the Calves, or or ownership
was going to say, oh, we can't keep this guy
on the team, or we can't sign this guy. So
like my my first love, excuse me, my first love
(17:11):
in basketball, I felt like it was going to be
taken away from me. And then so I I go
to you know, after that had happened. I go to
the Cleveland Clinic here, which is you know, a top
hospital in the country level, I mean in the world really,
and everything checked out and I was I thought, well,
what just happened here? Um, isn't it crazy that it's
in your head? But it just takes over such a
(17:33):
physical reaction that really, yeah, and it just it kind
of lives throughout and and really my anxiety is something
that I've come to terms with that I'm never going
to get rid of completely. Um, you know. I hope
in the future that will continue to have research and
tools and education that'll that'll uh, you know, further that
(17:56):
conversation as well as beating down the stigma. But I
don't think that it'll ever go away from me because
it just kind of lives, you know, you can't see
me on here, but uh lives in the pit of
my stomach. And I've just had to continue to try
and change my relationship with it. And the biggest thing
I did for myself was look myself in the mirror
after that episode and say, Okay, you know, I've I've
(18:17):
come this far. I need some help. So I started
my cognitive behavioral therapy and I started. Yeah, I started
seeing my therapist two days later, which was quick, which
was really quick, but so many things happened. Actually got
a lot worse, not a lot worse, but I got
worse before I got better. And I think telling my
story and I always say, only by admitting you know
(18:39):
who you are? Do you get what you want only
by sharing? And just like playing all my cards and
living outwardly? Did I then feel like, Okay, I feel
I feel liberated, I feel more empathetic, I've become a
better listener. But I also feel and this is I
know we'll talk about this in terms of COVID nightea.
I just feel like I'm part of something bigger and
(19:00):
the community. I didn't realize until I started reading and
and absorbing people's stories and listening that it's so it's
like the pandemic that nobody's talking about. It's it's crazy,
like the numbers have trended in such a really really
tough u into a tough, tough area for so long,
(19:20):
and they just keep trending in the wrong direction. And
so when you got back on that court that right
after that happened, were you nervous, were you hesitant? I
was most. I was most scared of that I was
going to get outed by teammates or you know, people
(19:40):
that worked at UM on the coaching staff or our
training staff. I just kind of tried to play it
off as best as I could, because I felt I
needed to hide hide it. And while people, you know,
had some some of my close friends and even my
teammates at the time had some sort of idea that
(20:02):
I was really going through it. At that time, they
didn't know to what extent and to or even have
any idea of how far it had dated back. So
there was a lot of things that they didn't know,
and I was happy that I was able to keep
it that way until it came a time where I
was just you know, ready to not you know, live
(20:24):
in the shadows because that's not the type of life
I wanted to live. Yeah. You know, for years, professional
athletes have worked with sports psychologists on the mental aspect
of the game, but and there's never a stigma with that.
So I'm always curious why there's a stigma with just therapy,
and it sounds Yeah, that's such a great question, I
think because for some reason it's taboo and it then
(20:46):
comes to, you know, anything outside the realm of sports.
I I really don't know why that is, but I
you got to work out your body, so why not
work out your mind? Yeah, exactly. And you know, if
I've seen how chronic inflammation has hurt my even my father,
hurt people close to me, like as they as they
age or get older, and that can really affect the brain.
(21:08):
I think there's such a a weird, you know, detachment
issue that we can't decipher between or except that uh,
you know, treating Yeah, your body and your mind and
in the realm of sports is okay, but outside of that,
you have a you know. Look, it's like one of
those things that you have a tail or you're different
(21:28):
or you're weird, or there's something wrong with you. It's like, no,
you should actually feel empowered to do so and understand
that if you kill your body, the mind will die.
And your your mind is so power betting yourself on
and off the floor and if one is going to
affect the other, and it's a constant balancing game, but
you're gonna be so better off for having having done so.
(21:50):
And I think I think it's part of the reason
is as at least professional athletes were looked at as
as superheroes. Oh they can't get hurt, But nobody's immune
to depression, nobody's immune to anxiety disorder. Your people, you're
a human exactly exactly. And what we're working on at
my fund is like early intervention and research in that
(22:11):
in those terms, because I think the younger demographic and
that next generation is going to be incredibly key, um
you know, in order to you know, move us forward.
And nothing robs us of more human potential than I
feel like mental illness. It's just and there's such a
(22:32):
stigma with it. And I'm very lucky because I've had
anxiety my entire life, Like I don't I can't really
think of a time I just didn't know what it was.
So I have just kind of therapy for I don't
even know how many years, and I don't know where
I would be without it. And I think there's such
a stigma with it. I know teammates have talked to
you about their struggles, but they don't want to come out.
(22:52):
But why do you think that is and why do
you think there is such a stigma with it, especially
mental health in sports, especially in basketball, because I think
one of the reasons is and it's such a ground
level way of thinking, but I think it's like giving
your opponent and edge. It's it's so simple to say that,
(23:12):
but I think exposing that um uh, you know, you
almost feel like you're you're out in the wild and
you're vulnerable, right, Like you you go down on the
food chain and people are going to know these certain
things about you. But also a part of it too
is you know, guys are and men and women are
looking for contracts or they're looking for the next thing,
and they feel like if if people know that this
(23:34):
is a part of them, that um, you know, they're
going to be looked at differently when it comes time
to get to the next contract and and and be
able to to feed their family. But like I said,
you part I, I don't um unless a lot like
you know, these you know conversations you know from you
(23:54):
want to talk about my father's Arragain, it's like they
grew up thinking that and they were sell braided as
people that oh, you know, I'm beating my emotions into
submission and you don't talk about that and that's that's
just not yeah, man, that's just not something that we do.
And that was you know I mentioned in my my
my article that I wrote that it's it's almost like
(24:16):
it's a learned thing. It's like a playbook growing up.
It's a total it's like it's like playbook. But um,
you know, while they're did it take you to write
that article. It took me. I remember when I decided
I was going to write it was when I didn't
want anybody. I just didn't want anybody else to share
my story or um tell my story. I wanted to
(24:39):
be in my words and I wanted to expose it
the way that I wanted wanted to do, and I
wanted to tell my truth in a certain way. When
I was, you know, doing my research. Um, after every
practice and after a game, you know, if you lose, especially,
you're bombarded with questions and I remember someone asked you
and you're just like, we sucked. So like, how is
(25:00):
that play into your anxiety and mental health? Because if
I don't know, if I could just be bombarded with
cameras and microphones and being asked about how you just
played when you're still in the heat of it. Before
I went to Cleveland and it was there were so
many expectations and that it was a media frenzy. You know,
it's a circus a lot of time, and it was
like a it was like a soap oper it was
(25:20):
a reality show. So it was great to to understand
that when I got here, and then I read a book,
The Four Agreements, where it was I've heard about that
be impeccable with your word, uh, don't take anything personal,
don't make assumptions, and then always do your best. And
just reading that book, it was like, Oh, if everybody
(25:42):
can do that and see that from all sides and
you can accept that that likely won't be the case.
But if people are generally can live by some of
those rules, like, you're gonna be better off. So I
just I was, I try to be impeccable with my
word when I speak to the media, I don't assumptions,
I don't take I don't take anything personal if they
(26:04):
talk bad about me, and then I just always try
to do my best and let let the chips fall.
I mean, it's it's a pretty simplistic way of thinking,
but I think the book has a very clear and
concise way of making you understand that. I think this
is a point where we should talk about toxic masculinity
because there's such a stigma with that. And I'm actually
(26:25):
really excited because I don't know if you know, but
this is our Susan finale. Look at this. It just
I know, And so I thought, I want to change
things up in my brother, my best friend and he
has been. He's the basketball expert besides my dad. They
are both so I thought i'd bring him on just
to add him into the conversation because he also plays basketball.
(26:48):
He's done it his entire life, so I think would
be interesting. Mark. Hello, what an introduction? So that it's
Sammy J Podcast. I'm honored to be on here, Sammy. Seriously, Kevin,
I've been a huge fan for a very long time
and inspiration. So you've talked about basketball your entire life.
You're not as tall as Kevin, but I know you try.
(27:10):
Um what have you faced in high school? Because you
played basketball? He was you were the senior captain, right, yes?
So uh, Kevin, I know we have a kind of
different statutes in terms of accomplishments, but it was a
four year varsity player. I don't know if that intimidates
you a little bit, but now I do know exactly what, um,
(27:33):
it feels like to not necessarily be able to I
feel like you're in a comfortable environment to express your emotions,
especially in the locker room environment. Did you ever experience
just the toxicity of not being able to kind of
say how things were straight up and how you're feeling.
So I think the biggest thing that I noticed in
(27:53):
high school in general was okay. So I was never
I was never like a bully by any means, but
sometimes I would because I wanted to be accepted so
bad or because of how I was feeling, I would
try to be, you know, like the class clown or
the funny guy. And some of the time it was
at other people's expense and mark to your point. Um,
(28:15):
you know, when I was in high school, I was,
I was you know, I grew up in right outside
of Portland, Oregon, but I was kind of a I
was a big fish and a smaller pond. It wasn't
you know, the smallest uh you know plays Portland, Oregon.
But I people didn't necessarily like the way I played,
or like the success we had, or liked where I
was from. So if I would go out in public,
I would hear a lot of the same things or
(28:37):
you know, I felt like I had to, you know,
never go through life in in smaller spaces and make
the world smaller for myself. And that was not a
good feeling, and that, like my social anxiety got so
bad when I got into uh the NBA, especially like
my third through seventh or yeah, probably third through seventh
(28:57):
year that I wouldn't there'd be very few times where
I go places or go outside. And I've really really
worked on that, probably some cases literally by yeah, by
exposure therapy, just like okay, you know what, I'm just
gonna go and know that I'm doing nothing wrong because
all this time I'm like I'm doing something wrong or
somebody's taking a picture of me, or or somebody's gonna
say something to me, or I'm gonna get caught up,
(29:18):
or it's just exposure therapy. Oh my goodness, the hardest
thing I've ever had to do. Yeah, well, I think
a lot of nowadays, you know, and I'm sure it's
amplified the further you go from high school. I was,
I was being recruited for college ball but didn't end
up playing, and then to the NBA. I'm sure that attention,
that pressure amplifies. And with social media nowadays, there's an
(29:41):
expectation for middle school hoopers to be posting highlight tapes,
you know, like you don't have game unless you're really
showing it on video, and that's just that's just ridiculous thing.
So being that things are changing for younger players, especially
with social media. You came into the league. I wrote
an article about you in UH in a school newspaper
(30:03):
in fifth grade. It was a couple of weeks after
you just had a thirty thirty game, UH, breaking the
record Moses Malone set in Night seven. UM. I'm like,
I'm a basketball junkie, like I live and breathe this sport,
and so seeing that happened when I was really young,
that was incredible. For those who don't know, U, thirty
thirty game or a double double is having ten or
more in any statistics. So ten rebounds, ten points. Kevin
(30:26):
had thirty rebounds. I think it was thirty one at
thirty one. Um, So how did it feel to set
such high standards for yourself at at your third year
in the league and you're doing and you're having a
thirty thirty game, Like, like, how does that feel? How
do you feel about the future going forward? Yeah? I know,
I felt I felt very good about that because I
felt I mean, that was the year I had made
my my first All Star game, and um, I believe
(30:49):
I was twenty two at the twenty two or twenty
three at the time, and I felt really good in
my game and started feeling really comfortable with expanding it
in a in a game that was that has changed
even radically since then. Um, it's become so much pace
in space and shooting the three ball and getting the shots,
getting more shots up and get you know, scores in
the one twenties, thirties and forties. Um, but no, I
(31:12):
felt really really good about where my game was at.
And even just speaking of anxiety or even melancholy depression
type feelings, I I read a book called Lincoln's Melancholy
where Abraham Lincoln his his depression drove him into great things.
And I think my anxiety to you know, have to
(31:33):
be in the gym and and you know, living out
of of In some cases a lot of it was
was fear. But I channeled that, and thankfully I channeled
that in such a great way that a lot of
great things happened in my in my basketball game, and
as a product of that, the world started opening up.
But now I don't I'm so much less fear based
(31:54):
than I used to be. But um, I think that
was well that drove me into great things. That was
also something that um was was really self self limiting
but this, uh, that was really the start of U
you know, yeah, big things that had happened for me. Um,
you know that was when that was when in Minnesota,
(32:14):
that was when you were the number one guy. Like
that was that I was freaking out. That was a
big moment. You were coming out with the big outlet. Um.
But for me, you know, seeing you go from thirty games,
number one guy in Minnesota, you're playing with westbrookie U
(32:35):
c l A. You talk about how anxiety may have
driven some of those performances, but I'm curious, and a
lot of players are really bad, you know, changing roles
with playing with different guys. You played with Kyrie Lebron,
number one guy in Minnesota, you're the veteran guy on Cleveland.
Now you're with Westbrook at u c l A. How
have you been able to change your roles so fluidly
(32:57):
in the league when so many guys get caught up
with ego or money or whatever it may be, and
they just can't they just can't mesh with other guys.
Think with having anxiety as well, that's a change is
hard enough. Yeah, I think it was just a part
of my overall growth. I think that the hardest transition
I did was going from Minnesota to uh than Cleveland
(33:20):
and becoming the third guy with two, I mean, unbelievable
general generational type players. So I think the hardest thing
was Yeah, I think once I looked internally and had
to pass the mirror tests for myself, it was more, um, okay,
I had some had some bad habits that I needed
to then get rid of, and I needed to This
(33:40):
is the first time I really had to sacrifice part
of my game for the better of the team, and
I didn't know what that meant. So the learning curve
was a little bit um, you know, different than it
would have been on the team if I was still
going to be the number one guy or even the
second guy. So I I really and I really had
to change my game, like I wasn't really playing inside
(34:02):
basketball anymore. What I had really that was my bread
and butter, and my whole game was my whole life exactly.
My whole life had you know, you play inside out.
But it took me about just you know, probably of
playing together six to eight months and then I really
started to get it until and then in we ended
up winning the championship and had a couple of All
(34:22):
Star years after that and the rest is history. But
that was just for the overall growth process was extremely
important for me and off the court, I just I
felt like I had kind of seen everything and in
a way, uh, you know almost you know, pretty much
done everything. With so much basketball left to play. You
made the transition so effortlessly going from rebounding four to
(34:46):
a stretch for you know, being able to shoot threes.
Because you look at and what Steph Curry did, and
you really look at like who influenced basketball, Guys like
Trey Young, Lonzo Ball, you know, LaMelo, all those younger
players here with us. They were like, he could shoot
anywhere and it's almost automatic. That's incredible. So how do
(35:07):
you think the NBA is going to evolve in the future. Well,
it's crazy. We looked at a We looked at a
stat this year where in the last five years, post ups,
if you just look at post ups, they're down fifty
percent in the last five years. So bit you know, four,
four men and five man are stepping out and shooting threes,
Whereas I grew up watching nineties era basketball, where you know,
(35:30):
you run down and then yeah, you just throw it
into the big and then you play off of him,
whereas that's it's more like, okay, space the floor, you're one,
two and three, come down, they make a play and
you know you just kind of see what happens and
try to get the pace. The pace is crazy, the
paces what's crazy. But I think, yes, Steph changed the game.
And then a guy that I grew up love, I
love to watch him was and he retired last year
(35:52):
was Dirk and he was seven ft tall, he was European.
He had that major influence UH in regard, but he
just stepped out and was that guy playing all everywhere
on the floor but coming down and transition shooting threes,
playing off the dribble, step back shooting threes. It was
just for me that changed the way I looked at
where the game was going. And unfortunately I had a
(36:14):
dad who played and he could really shoot it as well.
But he goes, you gotta watch this type of guy
because this is you know, he had the foresight to go, Okay,
this is this is what the future is going to
be right here, right and because because you look at
that kind of person and that kind of player, and
it's just it's like a unicorn and there's so much
more of that. It's so valuable being Yeah, okay, I
can talk to you about basketball foreverything like basketball I have,
(36:36):
I have. I'll leave you with one more question. You're
a you're depending on the end of this question, you
were or you are a Game of Thrones fan. Well
it was until maybe the last season, but there we
go that that I am a moment of the night's watch.
I'm a I'm a fan, um, and I know you
are too. I remember a press conference so vividly of
(36:57):
you being like I remember, I gotta I gotta go that.
That was an Atlanta series, I think. But that was funny.
That's funny. What what do you think of how the
series are at the end. It was just kind of
how they you know, people's storylines got cut, everything got
merged together, like you know, um, sorry spoiler were alert,
(37:20):
but like brand then end up being the king and like, yeah, yeah,
are you going to watch the prequel though? Oh for sure,
because I'm really into that as well. He's been trying
to get me to watch Game of Thrones, but I
just haven't committed. What you do is you're hearing from
the ending, I don't know if I should you have
(37:40):
to get through the eighth or ninth episode where it's um,
you know, sir illen and yeah, the whole that's well,
that's that's that's when you're like, oh, this is a
different kind of different. Is the thing. I'm scared to
try a show where the ending is awful because How
I Met Your Mother scarred me controversial, not really that
(38:04):
I don't want to watch another show that. See. I
personally love when it doesn't always end the way you
wanted to. So it's like kind of like that to
be taken to all levels of emotion and that like
just it takes me like stabs me in the side
and they kill off the mother. It is a hold on,
(38:25):
hold on. It's an How I Met your Mother. It's
a running joke in our family about people and how
we can judge their character based on whether or not
they like the ending of the how other series finale? Um, Kevin,
why did you say that? This has been a great
conversation and all of a sudden we just talked about
the ending. Sorry, I just I blew it. It's okay,
(38:48):
nobody's gonna like me, So thank you Mark for coming
on my podcast. Have any more questions for you, Kevin quickly.
Very nice to meet you, Kevin. Nice to meet you too, buddy. Kevin,
You've had such tremendous success and you've also been through
a lot. What would you tell your younger self? Speak
(39:09):
your truth? Speak your truth? I do wish I could,
you know if uh, something that I need to do
and some like a project that I need to do
is like write a write something to my younger self,
Like what what I would tell him because he was
could be a book. It could be a book. It
(39:30):
very very well could be a book. I mean it's
it's I don't know, had I had the presence of
mind at that age too just either take a breath
or or know that you know everything's going to be okay,
because I, you know, I had a crisis of hope
and I think at at um at that level, that's
(39:51):
at the root of yeah, all anxiety and all depression.
I just like I was just like, am I gonna
feel like this the rest of my life? Like there
was sometimes where like you know that you know, you
have that feeling where it's it's you get like this
dopamine hit and like the clouds, you know they open
up and the sun hits your face and you feel great.
But then there's other times where you're like, yeah, and
(40:13):
I'm sweating and I feel this in the pit of
my stomach and I don't want to turn the corner
because I don't know what's going to be around it.
And you make up this stuff in your mind, and
your mind goes down this dark path, and sometimes you
just go to your room and you sit and stare
at the ceiling and you're in this dark dark space
for you don't you know, weeks at a time, and
it's just I wish I could have just told that
(40:34):
person that, you know, it's it's it's okay, like speak
your truth. And like I said earlier, like nothing haunts
us like the things we don't say. It's it's normal.
I think, Um, what I hope to see in the
future too is and you've seen it with with uh,
you know the kids in Parkland, Florida, with their youth
uprise they were here of of gun violence. Awesome, they're
(40:57):
so awesome. Sorry, I just like screamed, and you know,
I know they're they're incredible. Yeah, now they're incredible. And
then um, in actually in Oregon where I'm from There
was several kids who went to the state capital and
state legislature and um pushed for mental health days and
they get three mental health days, I believe a semester
(41:18):
or quarter. Um yeah, no, it's super, It's it's very needed.
I mean I can't tell you how many like fake
sick days I took because I needed a mental health day.
But I really hope that um yeah, kids in high
school or even college undergraduate can see the type of
power that they have in their words, because I think,
(41:42):
you know, if if they speak up and they come
out in numbers because their strengthened, that that people will listen.
Thank you for coming on my podcast, and I know
you're very busy. And my final question for you is
something I was talking about with my brother and he
plays two K and B A two K a lot,
and I was wondering, do you ever play yourself? This
(42:03):
is going to do that? Yeah, I mean, if I
have a choice, I yeah, that's like the narcissist in
me is to be like, Okay, I'm just gonna see
how many points and rebounds I can put up. But typically,
you know, if if if I get to pick like
teams from a different era or or you know, some
of the best teams ever, I'll typically pick them and
(42:23):
then just like try and win at any expense because
I remember growing up, I had a lot of a
lot of broke I was a really sore loser until
I had to like learn to not be so crazy
in that but still be super competitive. Just not let
anybody see. Uh. It was a lot of broken systems
and a lot of broken controllers, and a lot of
(42:45):
my parents, parents yelling at me because my brother's system
that he just got was broken. So I typically try
and give myself the advantage in that. So nothing even
close to that. I mean I would if I had,
if I was an athlete in a video game, I
would totally right. I'm and I feel like, first of all, yeah,
first of all, when you first get the game and
you're in it, you're like, Okay, I'm gonna go see
(43:07):
how how they did me this or how how my
guys this time? What is my player rating? You know,
where are my attributes? What you know? What am I wearing?
How you know it doesn't look like me? What's my swag? Like? Yeah,
of course why wouldn't irectly? Well, thank you so much?
For coming on my podcast. It means so much to me,
and I'm really excited that we get to kick off
mental health awareness much because I appreciate so much how
(43:30):
honest you are about it, because I know mental health
is not talked about enough and it's something I've experienced
a lot and you have, And just thanks for taking
the time. Well, thank you for for having me, and
thank you for having me as part of the finale.
And I didn't know that this was the case, so
this is uh, we go, yeah, of course right. Thank
(43:52):
you guys so much for listening to this week's episode,
and thank you Kevin so much for taking the time
to openly talk about mental health. And so mental health
is such an important topic. I'm hoping that during Mental
Health and Wary in this month, we can all share
our stories and openly talk about what we're going through
to make others feel less alone. Make sure you go
follow Kevin on Instagram at Kevin Love and please go
(44:13):
look at this foundation. It's called the Kevin Love Fund
and you should totally check it out. Don't forget to
subscribe to our podcast if you haven't already. Also follow
me on Instagram at it Sammy J. That's I T
S S A M M Y j A y E.
And a special shout out to my brother Mark for
coming on my podcast. I love you, dude, and thank
you for always being there for me. All Right, you guys,
(44:33):
thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed
this episode and I'll see you next sact. Bye,
Hey, guys, it's Sammy J. And welcome to this week's episode.
Not only is this week's episode so special, but it
is our season finale. Guys, that is crazy to say.
This week we have NBA All Star and mental health
advocate Kevin Love. We talk about his basketball career, we
kick off Mental Health Awareness Months by talking about his
mental health dream from his anxiety and depression. And we
(00:29):
also have a special guest appearance coming up in this episode,
So stay tuned. As always, I cannot wait to hear
your feedback and I look forward to seeing you next season.
Thank you for coming on my podcast, Kevin. That is
crazy to say. Thanks for having me. This is uh.
I'm glad we got all this figured out and now
we're rolling huh. This is great. I know I like
(00:50):
your hat. Are you Yankees fan? I am. I have
been a long time Yankees fan, mostly because of Derek Jeter,
but also I have an apartment in New York now
lived in UH had most of my off seasons in
Los Angeles. Summers we typically take to travel around, but
the last two summers I've been in New York. So
(01:10):
I'm trying to uh, I guess become a new Yorker
by wearing this hat. But I've been told that takes
you at least ten years to actually be able to
call yourself a New Yorker. So I'm I'm on my way,
but I'm still um, I guess at a very youthful
stage in this. So well, my cousins called themselves New
Yorkers and they've lived here for two years, So you
(01:30):
can call yourself in you Okay, I'm an honorary New Yorker,
I think. So wait, so where is your favorite place
in New York? Like? What area? Because I live here?
Oh so I'm I really really like downtown. I feel
like especially in Tribeca or the West Village or Chelsea
or soho, just because it feels like even Dumbo as well.
(01:52):
You feel like you're almost you know, in Europe in
some places, like it just feels like you're in a uh,
you know, a lot different place than you would be elsewhere,
especially domestically here in the States. So I just love
the culture. I love the diversity. I love um you know,
the people, the food, and lest just goes on and on.
(02:13):
It's just such a great culture and really strong place
to feel like you're you're a part of even like
I said in my second year, having been here, see,
I want to go to California. You should. That's where
what's holding you back? Just go? Oh? Trust me, college
is a few years away. My dad actually went to
u c l. A amazing there you go. Look at
(02:34):
this right here. I know we're not doing the whole
video thing, but my U c l A hat right
here next to me on my desk, so I always
keep it close to me. Well, not only are you
my first NBA all start, but you're my first athlete
on my podcast. It's very exciting again and I feel honored. Likewise,
thanks for having me. I'm probably the tallest as well,
(02:55):
right I'm six Well that's contract hide. I'm probably about
six nine. Yeah, okay, so I'm five to on a
good day, Okay, when I'm always true. So do you
remember what age you were when you reach six ft?
What age was I when I reach six ft? I
think I crossed the six ft h barrier probably when
(03:21):
I was going into seventh grade, so I was like
twelve or thirteen at the time. I only know that
because we had our our nationals was in that year
for basketball, was in Memphis, Tennessee, and they had you know,
a lot of the tallest players there and some, I
mean some of these kids. It's crazy when you're thirteen
(03:41):
or fourty years old, they're hitting their girl spurts and
people that you know will go through high school and
be tall and after that they don't play anymore. But
they're six five six six six seven. I mean, it's
really really crazy to see across the country how many
uh you know, how many kids actually reached that size.
It's wild. How many times a day do people comment
on your head? A lot? But in the circles I
(04:03):
run in and and the friends that I have, I'm
I'm fortunate to not be uh listen. Do sometimes do
I wish that I had a few extra inches in
my height to help me with my sport, of course?
But I actually enjoy being at the uh you know,
kind of league average or slightly above um, because then
I don't necessarily stick out like a sword thomb. I
(04:24):
can still navigate and get my way through public and
not have to, you know, worry about that sort of thing.
And I can actually still fit in an airline seat,
which is nice. So um, yeah, it's lovely. It's the
little things in life. Right, So that's a that's a huge,
huge thing for me. Some clothes fit me, some clothes don't.
But um, you know, luckily I make it work. I
(04:45):
cut the sleeves off and you know I have a
short sleeve shirt. What's the big deal? See, it's perfect, perfect.
So how have you been amid COVID nineteen? Are you
staying home? Stay chill? Yeah, staying home super chill. If
you've ever gone on any of my social platforms, you've
seen my dog Vester. She's like the best thing ever.
I got her last year, My girlfriend Kay and I
(05:07):
we got her last year when when I was hurt,
So I had some time to be at home a
little bit more spending a little bit more time, uh
just here at my house like I have been throughout
COVID nineteen. So uh, you know, been able to develop
like a it's such a funny thing, like it really
is man's best friend. Dogs are really man's best friend.
(05:27):
She's like a little human. She's a she's a vis
last so she's a Hungarian hunting dog. But they call
him the quintessential uh velcrow dogs. So she just wants
to be right next to you, whether she's eating her meal,
whether she's chewing on her bone, whether she has her toys,
she's either doing that, playing with you or laying on
your chest. So it's like an ultimate uh like anxiety
(05:50):
medicine for me, but also like for for my job.
I'm sweating making sure that I'm getting exercise. I think
it's huge doing this type of stuff, like virtually making
sure that I'm communicating. Uh. Sometimes it's you know, I'm
sure you guys have dealt with it too, like super
hard to get a grasp of because even zoom. I
hadn't zoomed until like three weeks ago, and yeah, my
(06:13):
schools just google me it's right, And I hadn't done um,
what was it. I hadn't done Skype in like ten years.
Who does think it's so I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I
think it's overrated, right, I mean I was like I
came through clearly, but I'm like, okay, now I have
to figure out Skype and these I G lives. I
keep sending like I want to connect with you. I
(06:34):
want to connect with you. I want to connect with you.
I go and I come back and like I'm trying
to get stress. Stress so much because you're just talking
to yourself and then there's a delay. The delay is horrible.
And that's a big thing for me too, is like
having to turn the camera around now because I'm always
like shooting outward and now I have to turn it
in and you actually have to have to talk and
(06:54):
look at my face and keep this conversation going. So
it's like a funny time to navigate. Uh. And I'll
keep using that word. But coming out of this, I
imagine we'll in the way that we interact will all
change in a in a very very big way. So
in that it's going to be interesting to see the
tools and the and the uh, the things that come
(07:15):
out of it from from this perspective. Yeah, you mentioned
working out. How are you doing that? I am very
fortunate because I I first of all, I love where
I live. I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, and I invested just
in stuff to take care of my body at the house,
like every modality I could possibly have. So I have
like a a stationary bike, I have a self propelled treadmill.
(07:37):
I have a versa climber, I have free weights, I
have bands, Um, you know, I have things where I
can ice my legs and so on and so forth.
So like all that stuff, I've just said, Okay, how
can I get the best out of myself? Even if
I'm at home or I have an off day, or
I want to treat my body. I typically wake up
and kind of go through head to toe and say, Okay,
what do I what does my body need today in
(07:59):
order to function at the highest level? Because if I
if I feel bad in my body, my mind is
all out of whack. So I have to in the morning,
I usually take a deep breath in and out and say, Okay,
what do what do I need today? And it took
me a long long time to figure that out, but
I'm thankful that I did, especially for yeah, my sport.
(08:20):
But I also don't want to be that old man
that's hunched over when I'm sixty seventy eight years old
and hardly able to walk. I want to be able
to play with my my kids and hopefully my grandchildren
if I'm able to see that old age too. Uh um,
you know, be able to be very active. And today
did you meet with the team for the first time?
Is that what I heard? So we actually did. We
(08:42):
This is the second time we've done a zoom workout together. No,
it Actually what was unbelievable was after the first one.
I I called our head strength coach Derek Millinder afterwards,
and he was the one who set it up, and
I said, I'm in and we you know, got about
(09:02):
uh two thirds of our team on there, and we thought.
I thought to myself, got how is how is this
going to work? Like it's you. We're gonna have all
these people talking, we're gonna try to have music on,
We're gonna be trying to do our exercises. But I
called him afterwards and said that was I said, that
even went better than expected. That was great. So everybody
was basically saying, let's do it again. So we set
it up for Tuesdays and are the workout so then
(09:24):
Thursdays we actually have yoga together as well. So we're
finding ways to not only, you know, stay connected, but
to stay in some kind of shape. So if basketball
does then resume, that we won't be so far behind
the eight ball. We'll be able to get back into it,
hopefully as seamless as we can. During this time, How
is are you able to give like a basketball quarter?
(09:46):
How are you doing that? No? It's funny you asked
that too, because I just had a teammate asked me
today if you know if Kevin have even getting any
shots up, Like there's no gyms that are open. This
has probably been the longest I've ever gone without doing
it since I started playing organized basketball, and that was
at a very very young age. So you should get
those hoops that you put on the door. My brother
(10:07):
has one and just like because that's what he does.
He just throws at his watch. Oh, by the way,
I love that. But I'm such a child, like you
know that. People tell me all the time, show me
the upside of being mature, and I'll consider it. Or
I tell people that, uh huh. But it's one of
those things where I'd have like the little Tykes hoop
or I'd put that on the top of the door,
and then it's like Kate walked in front of it.
(10:29):
I just go and dunk over because that's that's like
what I did with my dad and did with my
brother all the time. Because right next to uh actually
right outside of my room and my sister's room, we
had like a really really tiny hoop and it was
broken down and if you hung on the rim, it
was for sure going to break and it was rusted over.
But if anybody walked in front of that, I just
(10:50):
go up and just try and dunk on everybody. That's
every time I enter my brother's room, I tell you
he will literally. Actually, I don't mean to brag, but
I've gone a few really good shots, and we call
it sweet shooting Sammy. And I think I could. I
don't know, maybe I could beat you. You'll see how
you know what on that on that hoop you it
(11:10):
would be probably a good matchup. But if you try
and duck on me, I'm really I'm gonna hard value.
Nobody is safe. Okay. Somebody I've always been curious about
is when one was the first time you, like, do
you remember the time when you fell in love with basketball? Really?
Since I can remember my my dad, he was a UH.
(11:34):
He went to Morningside High School in Inglewood, California, and
he was an All American there. He was a two
time All American at the University of Oregon, and UH
was the ninth pick in the draft by the Baltimore Boil.
It's like, you know, a hundred years ago, fifty years ago,
I think it was I mean, it was just it's
almost fifty or going on fifty years now, so that's
crazy crazy. So, um, basketball was always in my blood.
(11:57):
And I think naturally if you have a uh ah
father figure, who is I mean, he's he's my size,
if not taller, and um, you know it was really
a strong man and he put the ball in my
hand at an early age. They knew, the doctors knew
I was going to be tall, and I think that
even got me more excited when I had the presence
(12:19):
of mine to understand that, hey, I'm I'm gonna be tall.
I love this game. I can't get enough of basketball. Um,
it was just something that was always, like I said,
in my blood. There's there's no other way for me
to explain it other than it just right away it
clicked for me. And I just loved having a ball
in my hand and love shooting and even we have
to um, well now it's as I moved along in
(12:45):
my career, was just it was always the competitiveness and
seeing how you know, how much I could squeeze out
of this game. And I still feel like I have
so much to give. That's why I, like I said,
I invest so much in my body and in self care.
But I don't know, there's just some for me, there's
some overall, you know, beauty and a unique brand of storytelling,
(13:08):
and you just don't know how these games are going
to play out. And it's been a wild ride and
I've enjoyed it so much. So let's switch gears for
a sec. As you know, May is mental Health Awareness month,
and you have been an incredible activist for mental health
talking about your anxiety, depression and more. You've been in
(13:29):
high pressure situations, that's what your job is. You won
a gold medal in two thousand twelve Olympics. You've wonned
and be I'll start five times. You've won the NBA
Championship with Cleveland, and I know you've been very vocal
on your mental health journey. And I'm curious because you've
had so much pressure as a play or why was
it that? What was it just two years ago? What
(13:53):
do you think it was that made you that pressure
come too much and made that panic attack happen. I
think it was a lot of things. And you know,
I always try to establish and I talked about the
pillars in my life as well as my core competencies
and those uh, you know, are very much on the
same wavelength. So I think it was like friends and family.
It was those relationships. It was outside of basketball, whether
(14:17):
it be um, you know, business or other things outside
that I was working on, um, you know, things in
my personal life, uh you know, basketball. You know, there's
a number of pillars that just continued to fall and
felt like the world was caving in on me at
a certain point in my life, and my anxiety and
(14:39):
depression was was something that I had acknowledged individually and
still tried to curb it or make it seem far away.
And there was things that I did to do that,
especially all the way until I was, you know, years old,
when it really came to a place where it was
extremely unhealthy and I was, um, you know, trying to
(15:02):
figure out where I was going to go with my
life in general and on the basketball court. But basketball
was really the last pillar to fall. And with that,
there was we were going into a season where we
had made a major trade, We had expectations of being
a championship level team again going to the finals, and
(15:26):
we started out and I had very very high hopes
because I then became the second guy on the team,
the guy that was going to play, uh you know,
Robin Who then Lebron James Batman. So I I had
a lot of expectations as well as for myself. So
we go into the season and we're just really bad.
I mean, we're not bad, we're to start the season.
(15:47):
We're really bad. So that was the last one to
fall for me. And I had that major moment um,
you know, of a panic attack on the floor, whereas
in the past if I got y Yeah, no, it's terrifying,
and I initially thought I was having cardiac arrest, and
you know, I couldn't catch my breath and my whole
chest is getting super tight and I'm shaking and I
(16:09):
end up on the floor. I can't get oxygen so
extremely extremely and I can't think straight. I'm like looking
for something that's not ever. Yeah, it gets me worked up,
even just like talking about it when it happened. I'm
surprised you've done it so much because people ask you
about it all the time, and it's impressive that you
recount it because I'm lucky. I've only had a few.
(16:29):
But it feels like the world is just caving in,
and it's the most terrifying feeling I've ever felt, and
it's a fight or flight response where you can't really fight.
And so I was trying to get the hell out
of there and trying to and I didn't want anybody
to see. I think that was the biggest But I
was so afraid that people were going to find out that, um,
(16:50):
you know, it's it's like I had something wrong with me,
or that I was gonna be looked at his weak
or my teammates couldn't trust me, or my livelihood was
going to be in jeopardy because, uh, the front my
front office at the at the Calves, or or ownership
was going to say, oh, we can't keep this guy
on the team, or we can't sign this guy. So
like my my first love, excuse me, my first love
(17:11):
in basketball, I felt like it was going to be
taken away from me. And then so I I go
to you know, after that had happened. I go to
the Cleveland Clinic here, which is you know, a top
hospital in the country level, I mean in the world really,
and everything checked out and I was I thought, well,
what just happened here? Um, isn't it crazy that it's
in your head? But it just takes over such a
(17:33):
physical reaction that really, yeah, and it just it kind
of lives throughout and and really my anxiety is something
that I've come to terms with that I'm never going
to get rid of completely. Um, you know. I hope
in the future that will continue to have research and
tools and education that'll that'll uh, you know, further that
(17:56):
conversation as well as beating down the stigma. But I
don't think that it'll ever go away from me because
it just kind of lives, you know, you can't see
me on here, but uh lives in the pit of
my stomach. And I've just had to continue to try
and change my relationship with it. And the biggest thing
I did for myself was look myself in the mirror
after that episode and say, Okay, you know, I've I've
(18:17):
come this far. I need some help. So I started
my cognitive behavioral therapy and I started. Yeah, I started
seeing my therapist two days later, which was quick, which
was really quick, but so many things happened. Actually got
a lot worse, not a lot worse, but I got
worse before I got better. And I think telling my
story and I always say, only by admitting you know
(18:39):
who you are? Do you get what you want only
by sharing? And just like playing all my cards and
living outwardly? Did I then feel like, Okay, I feel
I feel liberated, I feel more empathetic, I've become a
better listener. But I also feel and this is I
know we'll talk about this in terms of COVID nightea.
I just feel like I'm part of something bigger and
(19:00):
the community. I didn't realize until I started reading and
and absorbing people's stories and listening that it's so it's
like the pandemic that nobody's talking about. It's it's crazy,
like the numbers have trended in such a really really
tough u into a tough, tough area for so long,
(19:20):
and they just keep trending in the wrong direction. And
so when you got back on that court that right
after that happened, were you nervous, were you hesitant? I
was most. I was most scared of that I was
going to get outed by teammates or you know, people
(19:40):
that worked at UM on the coaching staff or our
training staff. I just kind of tried to play it
off as best as I could, because I felt I
needed to hide hide it. And while people, you know,
had some some of my close friends and even my
teammates at the time had some sort of idea that
(20:02):
I was really going through it. At that time, they
didn't know to what extent and to or even have
any idea of how far it had dated back. So
there was a lot of things that they didn't know,
and I was happy that I was able to keep
it that way until it came a time where I
was just you know, ready to not you know, live
(20:24):
in the shadows because that's not the type of life
I wanted to live. Yeah. You know, for years, professional
athletes have worked with sports psychologists on the mental aspect
of the game, but and there's never a stigma with that.
So I'm always curious why there's a stigma with just therapy,
and it sounds Yeah, that's such a great question, I
think because for some reason it's taboo and it then
(20:46):
comes to, you know, anything outside the realm of sports.
I I really don't know why that is, but I
you got to work out your body, so why not
work out your mind? Yeah, exactly. And you know, if
I've seen how chronic inflammation has hurt my even my father,
hurt people close to me, like as they as they
age or get older, and that can really affect the brain.
(21:08):
I think there's such a a weird, you know, detachment
issue that we can't decipher between or except that uh,
you know, treating Yeah, your body and your mind and
in the realm of sports is okay, but outside of that,
you have a you know. Look, it's like one of
those things that you have a tail or you're different
(21:28):
or you're weird, or there's something wrong with you. It's like, no,
you should actually feel empowered to do so and understand
that if you kill your body, the mind will die.
And your your mind is so power betting yourself on
and off the floor and if one is going to
affect the other, and it's a constant balancing game, but
you're gonna be so better off for having having done so.
(21:50):
And I think I think it's part of the reason
is as at least professional athletes were looked at as
as superheroes. Oh they can't get hurt, But nobody's immune
to depression, nobody's immune to anxiety disorder. Your people, you're
a human exactly exactly. And what we're working on at
my fund is like early intervention and research in that
(22:11):
in those terms, because I think the younger demographic and
that next generation is going to be incredibly key, um
you know, in order to you know, move us forward.
And nothing robs us of more human potential than I
feel like mental illness. It's just and there's such a
(22:32):
stigma with it. And I'm very lucky because I've had
anxiety my entire life, Like I don't I can't really
think of a time I just didn't know what it was.
So I have just kind of therapy for I don't
even know how many years, and I don't know where
I would be without it. And I think there's such
a stigma with it. I know teammates have talked to
you about their struggles, but they don't want to come out.
(22:52):
But why do you think that is and why do
you think there is such a stigma with it, especially
mental health in sports, especially in basketball, because I think
one of the reasons is and it's such a ground
level way of thinking, but I think it's like giving
your opponent and edge. It's it's so simple to say that,
(23:12):
but I think exposing that um uh, you know, you
almost feel like you're you're out in the wild and
you're vulnerable, right, Like you you go down on the
food chain and people are going to know these certain
things about you. But also a part of it too
is you know, guys are and men and women are
looking for contracts or they're looking for the next thing,
and they feel like if if people know that this
(23:34):
is a part of them, that um, you know, they're
going to be looked at differently when it comes time
to get to the next contract and and and be
able to to feed their family. But like I said,
you part I, I don't um unless a lot like
you know, these you know conversations you know from you
(23:54):
want to talk about my father's Arragain, it's like they
grew up thinking that and they were sell braided as
people that oh, you know, I'm beating my emotions into
submission and you don't talk about that and that's that's
just not yeah, man, that's just not something that we do.
And that was you know I mentioned in my my
my article that I wrote that it's it's almost like
(24:16):
it's a learned thing. It's like a playbook growing up.
It's a total it's like it's like playbook. But um,
you know, while they're did it take you to write
that article. It took me. I remember when I decided
I was going to write it was when I didn't
want anybody. I just didn't want anybody else to share
my story or um tell my story. I wanted to
(24:39):
be in my words and I wanted to expose it
the way that I wanted wanted to do, and I
wanted to tell my truth in a certain way. When
I was, you know, doing my research. Um, after every
practice and after a game, you know, if you lose, especially,
you're bombarded with questions and I remember someone asked you
and you're just like, we sucked. So like, how is
(25:00):
that play into your anxiety and mental health? Because if
I don't know, if I could just be bombarded with
cameras and microphones and being asked about how you just
played when you're still in the heat of it. Before
I went to Cleveland and it was there were so
many expectations and that it was a media frenzy. You know,
it's a circus a lot of time, and it was
like a it was like a soap oper it was
(25:20):
a reality show. So it was great to to understand
that when I got here, and then I read a book,
The Four Agreements, where it was I've heard about that
be impeccable with your word, uh, don't take anything personal,
don't make assumptions, and then always do your best. And
just reading that book, it was like, Oh, if everybody
(25:42):
can do that and see that from all sides and
you can accept that that likely won't be the case.
But if people are generally can live by some of
those rules, like, you're gonna be better off. So I
just I was, I try to be impeccable with my
word when I speak to the media, I don't assumptions,
I don't take I don't take anything personal if they
(26:04):
talk bad about me, and then I just always try
to do my best and let let the chips fall.
I mean, it's it's a pretty simplistic way of thinking,
but I think the book has a very clear and
concise way of making you understand that. I think this
is a point where we should talk about toxic masculinity
because there's such a stigma with that. And I'm actually
(26:25):
really excited because I don't know if you know, but
this is our Susan finale. Look at this. It just
I know, And so I thought, I want to change
things up in my brother, my best friend and he
has been. He's the basketball expert besides my dad. They
are both so I thought i'd bring him on just
to add him into the conversation because he also plays basketball.
(26:48):
He's done it his entire life, so I think would
be interesting. Mark. Hello, what an introduction? So that it's
Sammy J Podcast. I'm honored to be on here, Sammy. Seriously, Kevin,
I've been a huge fan for a very long time
and inspiration. So you've talked about basketball your entire life.
You're not as tall as Kevin, but I know you try.
(27:10):
Um what have you faced in high school? Because you
played basketball? He was you were the senior captain, right, yes?
So uh, Kevin, I know we have a kind of
different statutes in terms of accomplishments, but it was a
four year varsity player. I don't know if that intimidates
you a little bit, but now I do know exactly what, um,
(27:33):
it feels like to not necessarily be able to I
feel like you're in a comfortable environment to express your emotions,
especially in the locker room environment. Did you ever experience
just the toxicity of not being able to kind of
say how things were straight up and how you're feeling.
So I think the biggest thing that I noticed in
(27:53):
high school in general was okay. So I was never
I was never like a bully by any means, but
sometimes I would because I wanted to be accepted so
bad or because of how I was feeling, I would
try to be, you know, like the class clown or
the funny guy. And some of the time it was
at other people's expense and mark to your point. Um,
(28:15):
you know, when I was in high school, I was,
I was you know, I grew up in right outside
of Portland, Oregon, but I was kind of a I
was a big fish and a smaller pond. It wasn't
you know, the smallest uh you know plays Portland, Oregon.
But I people didn't necessarily like the way I played,
or like the success we had, or liked where I
was from. So if I would go out in public,
I would hear a lot of the same things or
(28:37):
you know, I felt like I had to, you know,
never go through life in in smaller spaces and make
the world smaller for myself. And that was not a
good feeling, and that, like my social anxiety got so
bad when I got into uh the NBA, especially like
my third through seventh or yeah, probably third through seventh
(28:57):
year that I wouldn't there'd be very few times where
I go places or go outside. And I've really really
worked on that, probably some cases literally by yeah, by
exposure therapy, just like okay, you know what, I'm just
gonna go and know that I'm doing nothing wrong because
all this time I'm like I'm doing something wrong or
somebody's taking a picture of me, or or somebody's gonna
say something to me, or I'm gonna get caught up,
(29:18):
or it's just exposure therapy. Oh my goodness, the hardest
thing I've ever had to do. Yeah, well, I think
a lot of nowadays, you know, and I'm sure it's
amplified the further you go from high school. I was,
I was being recruited for college ball but didn't end
up playing, and then to the NBA. I'm sure that attention,
that pressure amplifies. And with social media nowadays, there's an
(29:41):
expectation for middle school hoopers to be posting highlight tapes,
you know, like you don't have game unless you're really
showing it on video, and that's just that's just ridiculous thing.
So being that things are changing for younger players, especially
with social media. You came into the league. I wrote
an article about you in UH in a school newspaper
(30:03):
in fifth grade. It was a couple of weeks after
you just had a thirty thirty game, UH, breaking the
record Moses Malone set in Night seven. UM. I'm like,
I'm a basketball junkie, like I live and breathe this sport,
and so seeing that happened when I was really young,
that was incredible. For those who don't know, U, thirty
thirty game or a double double is having ten or
more in any statistics. So ten rebounds, ten points. Kevin
(30:26):
had thirty rebounds. I think it was thirty one at
thirty one. Um, So how did it feel to set
such high standards for yourself at at your third year
in the league and you're doing and you're having a
thirty thirty game, Like, like, how does that feel? How
do you feel about the future going forward? Yeah? I know,
I felt I felt very good about that because I
felt I mean, that was the year I had made
my my first All Star game, and um, I believe
(30:49):
I was twenty two at the twenty two or twenty
three at the time, and I felt really good in
my game and started feeling really comfortable with expanding it
in a in a game that was that has changed
even radically since then. Um, it's become so much pace
in space and shooting the three ball and getting the shots,
getting more shots up and get you know, scores in
the one twenties, thirties and forties. Um, but no, I
(31:12):
felt really really good about where my game was at.
And even just speaking of anxiety or even melancholy depression
type feelings, I I read a book called Lincoln's Melancholy
where Abraham Lincoln his his depression drove him into great things.
And I think my anxiety to you know, have to
(31:33):
be in the gym and and you know, living out
of of In some cases a lot of it was
was fear. But I channeled that, and thankfully I channeled
that in such a great way that a lot of
great things happened in my in my basketball game, and
as a product of that, the world started opening up.
But now I don't I'm so much less fear based
(31:54):
than I used to be. But um, I think that
was well that drove me into great things. That was
also something that um was was really self self limiting
but this, uh, that was really the start of U
you know, yeah, big things that had happened for me. Um,
you know that was when that was when in Minnesota,
(32:14):
that was when you were the number one guy. Like
that was that I was freaking out. That was a
big moment. You were coming out with the big outlet. Um.
But for me, you know, seeing you go from thirty games,
number one guy in Minnesota, you're playing with westbrookie U
(32:35):
c l A. You talk about how anxiety may have
driven some of those performances, but I'm curious, and a
lot of players are really bad, you know, changing roles
with playing with different guys. You played with Kyrie Lebron,
number one guy in Minnesota, you're the veteran guy on Cleveland.
Now you're with Westbrook at u c l A. How
have you been able to change your roles so fluidly
(32:57):
in the league when so many guys get caught up
with ego or money or whatever it may be, and
they just can't they just can't mesh with other guys.
Think with having anxiety as well, that's a change is
hard enough. Yeah, I think it was just a part
of my overall growth. I think that the hardest transition
I did was going from Minnesota to uh than Cleveland
(33:20):
and becoming the third guy with two, I mean, unbelievable
general generational type players. So I think the hardest thing
was Yeah, I think once I looked internally and had
to pass the mirror tests for myself, it was more, um, okay,
I had some had some bad habits that I needed
to then get rid of, and I needed to This
(33:40):
is the first time I really had to sacrifice part
of my game for the better of the team, and
I didn't know what that meant. So the learning curve
was a little bit um, you know, different than it
would have been on the team if I was still
going to be the number one guy or even the
second guy. So I I really and I really had
to change my game, like I wasn't really playing inside
(34:02):
basketball anymore. What I had really that was my bread
and butter, and my whole game was my whole life exactly.
My whole life had you know, you play inside out.
But it took me about just you know, probably of
playing together six to eight months and then I really
started to get it until and then in we ended
up winning the championship and had a couple of All
(34:22):
Star years after that and the rest is history. But
that was just for the overall growth process was extremely
important for me and off the court, I just I
felt like I had kind of seen everything and in
a way, uh, you know almost you know, pretty much
done everything. With so much basketball left to play. You
made the transition so effortlessly going from rebounding four to
(34:46):
a stretch for you know, being able to shoot threes.
Because you look at and what Steph Curry did, and
you really look at like who influenced basketball, Guys like
Trey Young, Lonzo Ball, you know, LaMelo, all those younger
players here with us. They were like, he could shoot
anywhere and it's almost automatic. That's incredible. So how do
(35:07):
you think the NBA is going to evolve in the future. Well,
it's crazy. We looked at a We looked at a
stat this year where in the last five years, post ups,
if you just look at post ups, they're down fifty
percent in the last five years. So bit you know, four,
four men and five man are stepping out and shooting threes,
Whereas I grew up watching nineties era basketball, where you know,
(35:30):
you run down and then yeah, you just throw it
into the big and then you play off of him,
whereas that's it's more like, okay, space the floor, you're one,
two and three, come down, they make a play and
you know you just kind of see what happens and
try to get the pace. The pace is crazy, the
paces what's crazy. But I think, yes, Steph changed the game.
And then a guy that I grew up love, I
love to watch him was and he retired last year
(35:52):
was Dirk and he was seven ft tall, he was European.
He had that major influence UH in regard, but he
just stepped out and was that guy playing all everywhere
on the floor but coming down and transition shooting threes,
playing off the dribble, step back shooting threes. It was
just for me that changed the way I looked at
where the game was going. And unfortunately I had a
(36:14):
dad who played and he could really shoot it as well.
But he goes, you gotta watch this type of guy
because this is you know, he had the foresight to go, Okay,
this is this is what the future is going to
be right here, right and because because you look at
that kind of person and that kind of player, and
it's just it's like a unicorn and there's so much
more of that. It's so valuable being Yeah, okay, I
can talk to you about basketball foreverything like basketball I have,
(36:36):
I have. I'll leave you with one more question. You're
a you're depending on the end of this question, you
were or you are a Game of Thrones fan. Well
it was until maybe the last season, but there we
go that that I am a moment of the night's watch.
I'm a I'm a fan, um, and I know you
are too. I remember a press conference so vividly of
(36:57):
you being like I remember, I gotta I gotta go that.
That was an Atlanta series, I think. But that was funny.
That's funny. What what do you think of how the
series are at the end. It was just kind of
how they you know, people's storylines got cut, everything got
merged together, like you know, um, sorry spoiler were alert,
(37:20):
but like brand then end up being the king and like, yeah, yeah,
are you going to watch the prequel though? Oh for sure,
because I'm really into that as well. He's been trying
to get me to watch Game of Thrones, but I
just haven't committed. What you do is you're hearing from
the ending, I don't know if I should you have
(37:40):
to get through the eighth or ninth episode where it's um,
you know, sir illen and yeah, the whole that's well,
that's that's that's when you're like, oh, this is a
different kind of different. Is the thing. I'm scared to
try a show where the ending is awful because How
I Met Your Mother scarred me controversial, not really that
(38:04):
I don't want to watch another show that. See. I
personally love when it doesn't always end the way you
wanted to. So it's like kind of like that to
be taken to all levels of emotion and that like
just it takes me like stabs me in the side
and they kill off the mother. It is a hold on,
(38:25):
hold on. It's an How I Met your Mother. It's
a running joke in our family about people and how
we can judge their character based on whether or not
they like the ending of the how other series finale? Um, Kevin,
why did you say that? This has been a great
conversation and all of a sudden we just talked about
the ending. Sorry, I just I blew it. It's okay,
(38:48):
nobody's gonna like me, So thank you Mark for coming
on my podcast. Have any more questions for you, Kevin quickly.
Very nice to meet you, Kevin. Nice to meet you too, buddy. Kevin,
You've had such tremendous success and you've also been through
a lot. What would you tell your younger self? Speak
(39:09):
your truth? Speak your truth? I do wish I could,
you know if uh, something that I need to do
and some like a project that I need to do
is like write a write something to my younger self,
Like what what I would tell him because he was
could be a book. It could be a book. It
(39:30):
very very well could be a book. I mean it's
it's I don't know, had I had the presence of
mind at that age too just either take a breath
or or know that you know everything's going to be okay,
because I, you know, I had a crisis of hope
and I think at at um at that level, that's
(39:51):
at the root of yeah, all anxiety and all depression.
I just like I was just like, am I gonna
feel like this the rest of my life? Like there
was sometimes where like you know that you know, you
have that feeling where it's it's you get like this
dopamine hit and like the clouds, you know they open
up and the sun hits your face and you feel great.
But then there's other times where you're like, yeah, and
(40:13):
I'm sweating and I feel this in the pit of
my stomach and I don't want to turn the corner
because I don't know what's going to be around it.
And you make up this stuff in your mind, and
your mind goes down this dark path, and sometimes you
just go to your room and you sit and stare
at the ceiling and you're in this dark dark space
for you don't you know, weeks at a time, and
it's just I wish I could have just told that
(40:34):
person that, you know, it's it's it's okay, like speak
your truth. And like I said earlier, like nothing haunts
us like the things we don't say. It's it's normal.
I think, Um, what I hope to see in the
future too is and you've seen it with with uh,
you know the kids in Parkland, Florida, with their youth
uprise they were here of of gun violence. Awesome, they're
(40:57):
so awesome. Sorry, I just like screamed, and you know,
I know they're they're incredible. Yeah, now they're incredible. And
then um, in actually in Oregon where I'm from There
was several kids who went to the state capital and
state legislature and um pushed for mental health days and
they get three mental health days, I believe a semester
(41:18):
or quarter. Um yeah, no, it's super, It's it's very needed.
I mean I can't tell you how many like fake
sick days I took because I needed a mental health day.
But I really hope that um yeah, kids in high
school or even college undergraduate can see the type of
power that they have in their words, because I think,
(41:42):
you know, if if they speak up and they come
out in numbers because their strengthened, that that people will listen.
Thank you for coming on my podcast, and I know
you're very busy. And my final question for you is
something I was talking about with my brother and he
plays two K and B A two K a lot,
and I was wondering, do you ever play yourself? This
(42:03):
is going to do that? Yeah, I mean, if I
have a choice, I yeah, that's like the narcissist in
me is to be like, Okay, I'm just gonna see
how many points and rebounds I can put up. But typically,
you know, if if if I get to pick like
teams from a different era or or you know, some
of the best teams ever, I'll typically pick them and
(42:23):
then just like try and win at any expense because
I remember growing up, I had a lot of a
lot of broke I was a really sore loser until
I had to like learn to not be so crazy
in that but still be super competitive. Just not let
anybody see. Uh. It was a lot of broken systems
and a lot of broken controllers, and a lot of
(42:45):
my parents, parents yelling at me because my brother's system
that he just got was broken. So I typically try
and give myself the advantage in that. So nothing even
close to that. I mean I would if I had,
if I was an athlete in a video game, I
would totally right. I'm and I feel like, first of all, yeah,
first of all, when you first get the game and
you're in it, you're like, Okay, I'm gonna go see
(43:07):
how how they did me this or how how my
guys this time? What is my player rating? You know,
where are my attributes? What you know? What am I wearing?
How you know it doesn't look like me? What's my swag? Like? Yeah,
of course why wouldn't irectly? Well, thank you so much?
For coming on my podcast. It means so much to me,
and I'm really excited that we get to kick off
mental health awareness much because I appreciate so much how
(43:30):
honest you are about it, because I know mental health
is not talked about enough and it's something I've experienced
a lot and you have, And just thanks for taking
the time. Well, thank you for for having me, and
thank you for having me as part of the finale.
And I didn't know that this was the case, so
this is uh, we go, yeah, of course right. Thank
(43:52):
you guys so much for listening to this week's episode,
and thank you Kevin so much for taking the time
to openly talk about mental health. And so mental health
is such an important topic. I'm hoping that during Mental
Health and Wary in this month, we can all share
our stories and openly talk about what we're going through
to make others feel less alone. Make sure you go
follow Kevin on Instagram at Kevin Love and please go
(44:13):
look at this foundation. It's called the Kevin Love Fund
and you should totally check it out. Don't forget to
subscribe to our podcast if you haven't already. Also follow
me on Instagram at it Sammy J. That's I T
S S A M M Y j A y E.
And a special shout out to my brother Mark for
coming on my podcast. I love you, dude, and thank
you for always being there for me. All Right, you guys,
(44:33):
thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed
this episode and I'll see you next sact. Bye,
Host
Sammy Jaye
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