Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Light Up to D, a focus on what's
happening in our community from the people who make it happen.
Here's your host, iHeartMedia Detroit Market President Colleen Grant.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Good morning and welcome to another episode of Light Up
the D. My name is Colleen Grant. I'm your host,
and I appreciate you joining us today because we're talking
about some really important things today. I have two guests.
One is Carolyn Normandon. She's the Regional director of the
Anti Defamation League Michigan and is responsible for leading ADL's
Michigan regional office. Prior to joining ADL, Carolyn was senior
(00:35):
vice president leading operations, marketing, and Sales at the Charles H.
Wright Museum of African American History, and she also did
work with General Motors in a variety of roles including
the GM Foundation, public policy, brand communications, and diversity and inclusion.
Our other guest today is macal Nodell. She is the
vice chair of the Michigan ADL Regional Board and a
(00:58):
co chair of the twenty twenty twenty four Walk Against Hate,
which we're discussing today, which is taking place September twenty
ninth in Southfield with over twenty years of experience in
interactive tech production and product development, Mical has helped launch
video games, ed tech platforms, and consumer packaged goods in
global markets. She specializes in crafting strategic digital initiatives that
(01:21):
nurture thriving communities and builds strong international networks, particularly within
the Israeli tech and creative sectors. How interesting. I'm like, Wow,
that stuff I could never do. I'm so glad you
guys are joining me today. Welcome Carolyn and Michal. So
glad to have you here.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Thank you so much. Collen, nice to meet too.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Well, why don't we talk a little bit about the
and eied of Defamation League? What is it? What are
your goals? Who are you trying to serve? And how
can you help people in the community.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
So, the ADL or Anti Defamation League is a civil
rights organization. It's an anti hate organization. It's been around
for more than one hundred years. Our mission very simply
is to fight anti Semitism and secure equal justice to all.
So we work on behalf of a lot of different
people by educating, by advocating, and by investigating different incidents
(02:15):
of hate. And when I say investigate, I use that
word loosely. We work with police, but we're not police,
so we are Our main effort is to try and
get people to work together and to be kind to
one another, and we really take it strongly when incidents
of hatred creep up in our communities, which they have
a lot in the last several years, and we really
(02:38):
try and ameliorate the situation by giving education and helping
people talk to one another.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So you had said, you know that there has been
a lot, there has been a rise in anti semitism
in Michigan. What are you seeing and why do you
think this is happening.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Thank you so much for that question. We've been seeing
a rise of anti Semitism and other forms of hatred
for the last several years, and I would say.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
About last year.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
At this time, I was beginning to say anti semitism
and hatred was at a fever pitch. And you could
point to a lot of different reasons. You can point
to the divisiveness of our country, to the rise of
social media, the rise of conspiracy types of things on
social media. But then October seventh hit and then what
(03:27):
we really saw was just an explosion of hatred towards
the Jewish community, and it's been very, very troubling. Last year,
we saw an increase that was so astronomical across the country.
Here in Michigan, we were eighth in the country for
acts of anti Semitism that were reported to my office.
(03:49):
Eighth in the country. There were more than six hundred
incidents reported to my office, and about half of that
a little bit more than half of them, about forty
five or fifty five percent, we're anti Jewish or anti
anti Semitism. And then the other types of incidents that
we see are racisms and a phobia, Islamophobia, and also
(04:11):
anti LGBTQ plus and we look at every single one
of them.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, I mean, it just breaks my heart because we're Americans,
you know, That's that's what it comes down to. We're Americans,
and that means so many different things. One that we
are the melting pot, but two that we have the
right to you know, express what we who we are,
and that we respect each other in that. And to
think that there's just a rise and hate, you know,
(04:38):
in particular with specific people, when you know we're all
supposed to be kind of getting along here, it just
it really does break my heart.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
I think the one thing that I see that separates
now from before was this commonization of hatred, this ability
to say we disagree, so therefore I hate you.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
We disagree, so therefore I'm going to vandalize your home.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
We just agree, so therefore I'm going to hit you
over the head, or grab your necklace, or tear your
mazusa off the wall, or spray paint the cross off
of your building. So I think it's this sort of
commonization or normalization that really is worrisome. And that's the
kinds of things that we do that we are concerned
(05:20):
about it, and the work we do helps really try
and mitigate and get people to talk to one another
and get people to understand one another. And that's why
that's why we're in business.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
So when I think of the ADL, you know, you
were mentioning lots of different kinds of populations. So who
is it that you predominantly serve well.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
ADL is an unapologetically Jewish organization. We were started by Jews,
and our mission has always been to protect Jewish people.
But early on, like when our founders founded ADL in
nineteen thirteen, they realized that in order to fight on
behalf of the Jews. You had to fight on behalf
of everyone, because no Jews would be safe until everyone
(06:04):
was safe, and no one would be safe until Jews
were safe. And so our mission has always been inextricably linked.
So I would say I care as much about an
incident of racism coming across my desk as I do
about anti semitism. Recently, we're seeing just a giant explosion
of anti semitism. I would say, Colleen that during COVID
(06:27):
we saw an explosion of anti Asian hate, and so
ADL kind of morphs along with the situation, and we
work on the incidents that come across our desk, and
that's why we've got our Walk against Hate coming up
in at the end of this month.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I mean, I appreciate you being here because part
of the goal of this program is to create goodwill
among people of any circumstance, and so you know, I
guess I would say, if anybody's listening and they're like
angry at what we're talking about today, I would ask
you to try to find peace in your heart, because
(07:04):
we really just are all trying to get along, and
we really are trying to give people peaceful lives. And
part of it is just helping people understand other people,
you know, I think that's part of what it is,
and sometimes people don't understand other people as well.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
We have a really great I think you're right.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
We have a really great program in the schools called
No Place for Hate and it's just that it's a
framework for students to talk to one another, to find
ways of working with one another. And it's a designation program.
And what I mean by that is we give a
banner at the end of the year. If a school
goes through with students, activities led by students, designed by students,
(07:44):
and then does those activities in the school, we give
them a banner similar to like a football banner or
a hockey banner that you'd hang that you were state
champions and No Place for Hate designation should be a
state championship.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
And that's one of the things we'll do.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
And we could talk about that, but I'll bring in
some students to get you to talk about that, because
the students that are that are at our No Place
for Hate schools are remarkable.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, because what they're learning is you don't have to agree,
and that's okay, right, but there is no place for hate.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah. So you have a walk coming up and I
want to get to that. Let's hear it. That's right,
ncall give us some details.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
ADL's Walk Against Hate is an annual event where we
get together to around our commitment to a future without
anti Semitism, bigotry, or hate of any kind. We celebrate
champions of that endeavor. This year, we have several honorees,
and we're really looking to bump up people in the
(08:41):
education sphere who are supporting their students in understanding others,
in feeling proud of who they are, and in in
protecting their own communities. So we can we can talk
about some of those honorees. I think you should highlight uh,
you know, kind of the for the singled out educator.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Sure. Thanks.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Earlier this year, a volunteer that volunteers with ADL actually
on the Walk against tit every year. She was at
a Coney Island restaurant. She saw a group of kids
come in and she started to talk to them and
she said, are you here for a you know, like
a field trip? And they said, yeah, we came from.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Covert, Michigan.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
This is two hundred miles away and basically she learned
the story. And there was a social studies teacher named
Pam Baker, and she's from Covert High School, and Covert
is on the west side of the state. It's a
small school, and Pam was tasked to teach her students
about anti Semitism but within the context of the Holocaust.
(09:44):
And while she was doing that, she realized that the
students really weren't getting they really weren't understanding the Holocaust.
So she got her principal to get her a bus.
They drove three hours here to Farmington Hills, went to
the Holocaust, the Zeckelmann Holocaust Center, had this remarkable experience,
and then they had to eat because they're going to
drive three hours back. And that's when they met this
(10:06):
volunteer from ADL and she started to talk to them.
And for these students, some of them had never met
a Jewish person in their life, and it was just
a remarkable experience. We were talking about having people talk
to one another.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
This woman just started talking to them. She bought dessert
for the entire group.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
They started corresponding with her, they were texting her, and
we felt like this teacher went above and beyond. So
we're giving her the Path to Courage Award for bringing
her students, her entire ninth grade class three hours each way,
so it was a seven seven and a half hour trip,
so it was a long field trip that day. But
(10:47):
we're honoring Pam Baker with the Path to Education award.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Speaker 5 (10:51):
We do have nine other Jewish professionals that were awarding
in award too. It's also a Path to Courage and
these are Jewish professionals at Michigan State University, at University
of Michigan and Wayne State University who have worked through
a partnership with ADL and with students to support them
(11:13):
post October seventh in support them in any events, in
any uncomf discomfort or anti Semitism that they've experienced on campus.
Those individuals are doctor Yel Arnoff, Robin Hughey, Rabbi Bension
Sheemto from Michigan State, Rabbi Fully Eisenberg, Rabbi Alter Goldstein,
and Rabbi davey Rosen from University of Michigan. Also doctor
(11:36):
Howard Lupovich and Rabbi Israel Pinsone and Miriam Starkman from
Wayne State. They all demonstrated grit and determination an active
response during the twenty twenty four to twenty five school year.
And these professionals represent HELLEL Jabad, the Serling Institute, the
Jewish Resource Center, and the Kohne Hatouse Center for Judaic Studies.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Well, that's great congratulations to now, what a fine honor
for them to receive.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
They deserve it. They were they were the front edge
of hatred on campus this year in twenty twenty three,
twenty four, and they provided a safe haven for students.
And not only Jewish students felt the October seventh massacre
very very strongly. There were non Jewish students also, and
(12:26):
so we're pleased. It's interesting that all the honorees this
year happened to be educators are connected to the education system.
We started talking about education, and we'll always sort of
talk about education because this is a real crucial time
to get people learning, understanding and then speaking up on
(12:48):
behalf of the people that they work with and go
to school with. And so I'm really glad Makau wrote
read each one of those names, because they deserve it.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Hey McCall, why don't we talk about like if somebody
has never been to the walk before, will you describe
it for listeners they understand what's going to take place.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Yes, So the Walk against Hate that's taking place on
September twenty ninth. It's on Sunday, Sunday morning at ten am,
and it's at the Southfield Civic Center. For anyone who
hasn't been, it's a big field right next to the
Southfield Library and the City Hall. We'll have a stage
set up and there's a registration area and you know,
there'll be a little bit of food and snacks before
(13:31):
the walk. This is a family friendly event and we
have some special programming for children this year.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Also that little.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
Awards that they can receive along the walk path that
at the end they can come and exchange for a
big reward, which which might be ice cream. I guess yeah,
I think so on a Sunday morning. But the idea
is to make it, you know, comfortable and exciting for
families to come out with their children and stand with
(14:01):
their community in support of this cause. It's a under
a two mile walk along the route leading from the
City Hall and kind of around Southfield in an escorted walk.
We'll have security.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Along the way.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
There'll be water and snacks along the way as well
and h and that's kind of it. It's it's not
a major time commitment. And we're hoping for beautiful weather.
We've walked in not beautiful weather before too.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
This is the fourth year in a row that we're
that we're hosting this event and and we're expecting a
great turnout. We're excited for all of our community partners
to come and for for their teams. People are able
to create teams to raise money which helps support all
of ADL's work. And it's a it's an exciting day
and a day everyone can be proud of.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
So if somebody wants to get more involved with the
ad L, what would they do.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
The best thing?
Speaker 4 (14:56):
If you have any questions, if you want to get involved,
if you want to learn more about ad L, email
us at Michigan at a d L dot org. That's
Michigan at a like Apple, d like David L, like
Larry dot org.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
And if you want to.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Walk or sign up for the walk, you can go
to Walk Against Tate Forward slash Michigan dot com dot org.
And I also want to give a shout out to
the City of Southfield because man are they great. The
mayor has loved this event since we brought it to him.
We get a lot of support from the police and fire,
(15:35):
the emergency staff. They're just a wonderful, remarkable community to
deal with. And Southfield is very conveniently located. So we
just love being there and they love having us.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
That's wonderful. Shout out to Southfield. Way to go Southfield.
So I was really surprised last year and really disheartened
because I always think of children as more open minded,
you know, I always think, oh, the collegiate student is
kind of like a blank canvas and they're still trying
to figure things out. And when I saw like the
(16:09):
amount of hate on the college campus is it literally
broke my heart. I'm about to cry because I'm really
shocked that what might be happening, or what you what
you might guess is happening, is that people are teaching
their kids hate. You know, it's not something you go
out and learn from, you know, outside, you hear that
(16:30):
in your house, like you believe that in your heart
because you were taught that, you know. That was really disheartening,
and I guess that's you know what kind of surprised me.
I was really shocked. So it made me wonder more
about like anti seminitism across all ages.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Yeah, well we see we do our no Place for
Hate program in starting with about third grade, and you know,
Milchal talked about the family friendly event we have along
the walk. It talks to young little about friendship and
allyship and standing up for your friends and being there
for others.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
And then as you get older.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
It gets more sophisticated because the kind of incidents to
happen become more sophisticated. I would draw a line between
like mistakes or misinformation, disinformation and malinformation, and I would say, like,
when you make a mistake, your intention is pure. You
make a mistake and you ask somebody and somebody says, hey,
(17:27):
that really hurt me. That's really offensive, and you say, oh, geez,
I really didn't mean to meet to hurt you. And
that's something that's usually very easily understood, and you just
walk up to a person and you say I'm sorry.
So that's sort of miss Mistakes or misinformation. Disinformation is
when you're really trying to so discord, you're really trying
(17:47):
to tell somebody something wrong, and that's a problem, and
it takes a lot to turn people into back from
that road, and we call it the pyramid of hate,
and we feel like if you don't disrupt it, you
can't get back very easily. And in schools you really
can kind of teach the skills that are needed to
(18:08):
kind of help people get along with one another and
understand and then they find out, like you just said
at the beginning of the show, we are all people.
We are all from the same human matter and we
and human lives matter too, and they should teach in
every one of us. When you get to the real
evilness or the mail the mal information that's being set out,
(18:32):
that's just trying to sew discord in just an evil way.
And those are the people that you're never gonna You're
never going to turn their minds out. They're always going
to be trying to sew discords, trying to make things
difficult for people. And so, uh, we concentrate on the
first two. We try to concentrate on helping people understand
(18:53):
how they can help people know who they are, and
helping people who might have the wrong eye about what
they are and how they choose to live or their
religion or their ethnicity, and that is something that we
can make great strides at doing.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
And I think.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
What we saw right after ten seven is a very
very quick turn from a massacre where the whole world
was lighting up. The Eiffel Tower was blue and white,
and Number ten Downing Street was blue and white, and
the Sydney Opera Center was blue and white, and all
of a sudden, within a few days, all of a sudden,
(19:32):
hatred started turning onto the State of Israel. And I
would be remiss if I didn't say ADL is a
two state solution organization. And what I mean by that
is I can be a Zionist, I can be for
a person who believes in the state of Israel, and
I can also be somebody who cares and wants to
see a state for Palestinians. That's where ADL comes out,
(19:54):
That's where I personally come out, and that's what we
talk about because that's really important to us, and I
think it's it's really important to anyone who cares about
continued peace, and that's something that's eluded that part of
the world for a long time, and we're not going
to stop until we continue to reach for that.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
What an important part of the message that you gave
that you can be supporting both people, you know, in
what they are trying to achieve.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Yes, I think it's crucial. It's what ADL has always
been about. I think it's really important to say that
October seventh was caused by a terrorist organization. Hamas is
a world recognized terrorist organization. These are not Palestinian people.
It is a terrorist organization. And when people work together
(20:46):
to say there can be two states, and there can
be an Israel and there can be a state for Palestinians,
that's where we need to be. This is a very
complicated situation and so we would ever solve it. There
are people smarter and have many more resources than I
have right now, But I do believe that it's really
(21:09):
crucial to separate out the massacre that occurred and get
those hostages home. I wear a yellow ribbon. There are
people I know that were dog tags every day. There
are still more than one hundred people that are in captivity,
and many of them are American citizens, and we, you know,
(21:30):
we care very much about getting those hostages home.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, McCall, remind everybody how they can find out more
about the walk because we just want to make sure
that they don't miss out on this really odd Yeah,
you know, exciting event that you're going to be producing.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
Absolutely, So the Walk against Hate. It's taking place September
twenty ninth in Southfield at ten am. You can pre
register or get more information at Walk Against Hate forward
slash Michigan dot org, and you can reach out to
the ADL and get in touch by emailing Michigan at
ADL dot org.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
So, you know, I'm just thinking about what you had
said earlier about you, who you work with, what kinds
of Can you tell us a little bit more about
the cases you're seeing these days and what you're dealing with.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Well, sure, that's a very very tough question. I can
tell you that the Data ADL is a mission driven
organization and we are informed by research. So the information
that I'm about to give you is was collected and
analyzed by our centeron Extremism. I'll talk only about Michigan
because that's what I know the best, because I'm the
(22:37):
regional director for Michigan. So last year, two hundred and
sixty seven incidents of anti Semitism we were counted in
our report, and that takes out hoaxes that takes out
things that we couldn't corroborate, that takes out duplicates. In
other words, if one incident is sent to us by
five people, we only count at one time. So in
(22:59):
those incidents, which was a huge difference, I'll tell you
that it was an increase of nearly one hundred and
forty one.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Percent over the year before. Oh my goodness, it was enormous.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Across this across Michigan, seventy five cities in twenty six
Michigan counties. Just for comparison, the year before was thirty
four cities in fifteen counties, so it was double the
number of cities and double the number of counties.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
We saw just.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
A whopping one hundred and forty seven percent rise in
harassment and what I and what I mean by that
is yelling at people, calling people names, walking behind them,
and cat calling them. Vandalism was up one hundred and
five percent, so vandalism of buildings, of signs. There was
(23:54):
this happened this year just recently, an art exhibit not
too far from here, and it was vandalized with swastikas.
There was no reason for this to be to be vandalized.
It wasn't a Jewish thing. It wasn't it was just
an art exhibit.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
So what we.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
Saw was all swastikas, slastica swastikas. We've seen things vandalized
with the words the letters w LM.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
White Lives Matter.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
There's often a correlation between anti semitism and white supremacy,
not always, but often. So we saw, for example, twenty
two incidents in non Jewish schools or universities. We saw
fifty incidents in public areas.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
We saw thirty.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
One incidents on college campuses and universities. We saw nineteen
incidents that happened in businesses, and we saw thirty incidents
that happened at homes or in apartment complexes or housing units.
We also saw a percentage that we would classified as extremism.
(25:02):
These are these are extremists like white supremacists or neo
Nazis that really they are card carrying members of extremist organizations.
And so that kind of hatred was prevalent within the
confines of the audit of anti Semitic incidents.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
So it's a problem. I think.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
This is not an unsolvable problem. We have to stand up,
we have to share our facts, and we have to
show strength as as people, as Jewish people and non
Jewish people. This is not a Jewish problem, just like
racism isn't a black problem. You know, it's an everyone
problemata to put it. So, we need everyone under this tent.
(25:41):
That's why the Walk against Hate is so important, because
we are walking against hate of all kinds. I think
it's really we're at a tipping point now where we
really have to kind of determine what kind of a
country are we going to be, what kind of things
are we going to.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Put up with?
Speaker 4 (25:59):
And so we talk about standing up, and I'm talking
about tough things like standing up to your friends. You know,
if your best friend's boyfriend's cousin says something, stand up
to them. I'm not about advocating standing up with people
you don't know. You know, it's really you really have
to call in authorities. Always call police if there's been
(26:22):
a crime, Always start with police. But ADL is there
for people to report incidents too, and we look at
every single one of them.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, it takes fortitude among us all because it's scary
to stand up to people. But if if we don't,
then we're implying by our silence that it's okay, and
there is a way to do it that you know,
doesn't offend the other person but helps them understand that
we just all need to get along and there needs
to be peace and if we can just you know,
(26:52):
work more together to help each other rather than put
each other down, that's going to lift everybody up.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I think that's the right, the right addedite.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
I think there's more than enough room under this tent
for people to come together and say we want a
world where hate has no home. I'd like to I'd
like to have Michigan have zero incidents of anti Semitism, right,
zero incidents of hatred, zero incidents of Islamophobia, zero incidents
of hatred towards the LGBTQ community.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
And so on.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
This is something that we have to call out every
time we see it, and you can do that by
you know, reaching out to ADL Michigan ATADL dot org
and just say, I have an incident I'd like to report.
There's also a reporting tool on our website and we
could guide you to that, and then I would say
also to teachers, the ADL website has tremendous resources how
(27:46):
to talk to people about thorny issues. Most of the
issues that come across my desk are solvable, but some
of them have to be nuanced and you have to
kind of really really delve into them.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
So it's really important for need to help people.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Get the right information, and we do that by educating,
by advocating, and by holding people accountable for incidents of hatred.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Do you love what you do?
Speaker 4 (28:12):
This is the hardest job I've ever done, and it's
the most rewarding job I have ever done. It's sometimes
the incidents are really hard for my team. I worry
about my team. We do a lot of respite care,
We do a lot of checking in on each other.
But I would have to say all it takes is
one incident where a parent calls us and says you
(28:34):
change the life of my kid, or my kid feels
better about going to school now, and then we sit
up a little straighter and we throw our shoulders back.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
So yeah, we love our jobs.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
And I can't say enough about our lay leaders, to
our volunteers, people like Michal who's the vice chair of
our board, and she gives a tremendous amount of time
people who want to work on behalf of ADL and
by the way. You don't have to be Jewish to
work for radio, you don't have to be Jewish to
be on our board, you don't have to be Jewish
to join our young Leadership program. Because we start where
(29:08):
we begin, we fight anti Semitism and we secure equal
justice and fair treatment from.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Well, there, there it is. That's a great way to
wrap it up. I really appreciate everything that you said.
I mean, we really just want to no more hate,
hatey our hateless Michigan. That's what it is.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
I'm going to stam up today. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, our guests today have been Carolyn Normanden and macal Nodell,
both with Anti Defamation League Michigan Chapter. Thank you both
for joining us today. Really appreciate it and looking forward
to your walk on September twenty ninth over in Southfield,
the Walk against Hate. Thank you so.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Much, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yes, this has been light Up the d a community,
a fairs program from iHeartMedia Detroit. If your organization would
like to get on the program, email Colleen Grant at
iHeartMedia dot com. Your all episodes on this station's podcast page.
Welcome to Light Up to D, a focus on what's
happening in our community from the people who make it happen.
Here's your host, iHeartMedia Detroit Market President Colleen Grant.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Good morning and welcome to another episode of Light Up
the D. My name is Colleen Grant. I'm your host,
and I appreciate you joining us today because we're talking
about some really important things today. I have two guests.
One is Carolyn Normandon. She's the Regional director of the
Anti Defamation League Michigan and is responsible for leading ADL's
Michigan regional office. Prior to joining ADL, Carolyn was senior
(00:35):
vice president leading operations, marketing, and Sales at the Charles H.
Wright Museum of African American History, and she also did
work with General Motors in a variety of roles including
the GM Foundation, public policy, brand communications, and diversity and inclusion.
Our other guest today is macal Nodell. She is the
vice chair of the Michigan ADL Regional Board and a
(00:58):
co chair of the twenty twenty twenty four Walk Against Hate,
which we're discussing today, which is taking place September twenty
ninth in Southfield with over twenty years of experience in
interactive tech production and product development, Mical has helped launch
video games, ed tech platforms, and consumer packaged goods in
global markets. She specializes in crafting strategic digital initiatives that
(01:21):
nurture thriving communities and builds strong international networks, particularly within
the Israeli tech and creative sectors. How interesting. I'm like, Wow,
that stuff I could never do. I'm so glad you
guys are joining me today. Welcome Carolyn and Michal. So
glad to have you here.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Thank you so much. Collen, nice to meet too.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Well, why don't we talk a little bit about the
and eied of Defamation League? What is it? What are
your goals? Who are you trying to serve? And how
can you help people in the community.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
So, the ADL or Anti Defamation League is a civil
rights organization. It's an anti hate organization. It's been around
for more than one hundred years. Our mission very simply
is to fight anti Semitism and secure equal justice to all.
So we work on behalf of a lot of different
people by educating, by advocating, and by investigating different incidents
(02:15):
of hate. And when I say investigate, I use that
word loosely. We work with police, but we're not police,
so we are Our main effort is to try and
get people to work together and to be kind to
one another, and we really take it strongly when incidents
of hatred creep up in our communities, which they have
a lot in the last several years, and we really
(02:38):
try and ameliorate the situation by giving education and helping
people talk to one another.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So you had said, you know that there has been
a lot, there has been a rise in anti semitism
in Michigan. What are you seeing and why do you
think this is happening.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Thank you so much for that question. We've been seeing
a rise of anti Semitism and other forms of hatred
for the last several years, and I would say.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
About last year.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
At this time, I was beginning to say anti semitism
and hatred was at a fever pitch. And you could
point to a lot of different reasons. You can point
to the divisiveness of our country, to the rise of
social media, the rise of conspiracy types of things on
social media. But then October seventh hit and then what
(03:27):
we really saw was just an explosion of hatred towards
the Jewish community, and it's been very, very troubling. Last year,
we saw an increase that was so astronomical across the country.
Here in Michigan, we were eighth in the country for
acts of anti Semitism that were reported to my office.
(03:49):
Eighth in the country. There were more than six hundred
incidents reported to my office, and about half of that
a little bit more than half of them, about forty
five or fifty five percent, we're anti Jewish or anti
anti Semitism. And then the other types of incidents that
we see are racisms and a phobia, Islamophobia, and also
(04:11):
anti LGBTQ plus and we look at every single one
of them.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, I mean, it just breaks my heart because we're Americans,
you know, That's that's what it comes down to. We're Americans,
and that means so many different things. One that we
are the melting pot, but two that we have the
right to you know, express what we who we are,
and that we respect each other in that. And to
think that there's just a rise and hate, you know,
(04:38):
in particular with specific people, when you know we're all
supposed to be kind of getting along here, it just
it really does break my heart.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
I think the one thing that I see that separates
now from before was this commonization of hatred, this ability
to say we disagree, so therefore I hate you.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
We disagree, so therefore I'm going to vandalize your home.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
We just agree, so therefore I'm going to hit you
over the head, or grab your necklace, or tear your
mazusa off the wall, or spray paint the cross off
of your building. So I think it's this sort of
commonization or normalization that really is worrisome. And that's the
kinds of things that we do that we are concerned
(05:20):
about it, and the work we do helps really try
and mitigate and get people to talk to one another
and get people to understand one another. And that's why
that's why we're in business.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
So when I think of the ADL, you know, you
were mentioning lots of different kinds of populations. So who
is it that you predominantly serve well.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
ADL is an unapologetically Jewish organization. We were started by Jews,
and our mission has always been to protect Jewish people.
But early on, like when our founders founded ADL in
nineteen thirteen, they realized that in order to fight on
behalf of the Jews. You had to fight on behalf
of everyone, because no Jews would be safe until everyone
(06:04):
was safe, and no one would be safe until Jews
were safe. And so our mission has always been inextricably linked.
So I would say I care as much about an
incident of racism coming across my desk as I do
about anti semitism. Recently, we're seeing just a giant explosion
of anti semitism. I would say, Colleen that during COVID
(06:27):
we saw an explosion of anti Asian hate, and so
ADL kind of morphs along with the situation, and we
work on the incidents that come across our desk, and
that's why we've got our Walk against Hate coming up
in at the end of this month.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I mean, I appreciate you being here because part
of the goal of this program is to create goodwill
among people of any circumstance, and so you know, I
guess I would say, if anybody's listening and they're like
angry at what we're talking about today, I would ask
you to try to find peace in your heart, because
(07:04):
we really just are all trying to get along, and
we really are trying to give people peaceful lives. And
part of it is just helping people understand other people,
you know, I think that's part of what it is,
and sometimes people don't understand other people as well.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
We have a really great I think you're right.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
We have a really great program in the schools called
No Place for Hate and it's just that it's a
framework for students to talk to one another, to find
ways of working with one another. And it's a designation program.
And what I mean by that is we give a
banner at the end of the year. If a school
goes through with students, activities led by students, designed by students,
(07:44):
and then does those activities in the school, we give
them a banner similar to like a football banner or
a hockey banner that you'd hang that you were state
champions and No Place for Hate designation should be a
state championship.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
And that's one of the things we'll do.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
And we could talk about that, but I'll bring in
some students to get you to talk about that, because
the students that are that are at our No Place
for Hate schools are remarkable.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, because what they're learning is you don't have to agree,
and that's okay, right, but there is no place for hate.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah. So you have a walk coming up and I
want to get to that. Let's hear it. That's right,
ncall give us some details.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
ADL's Walk Against Hate is an annual event where we
get together to around our commitment to a future without
anti Semitism, bigotry, or hate of any kind. We celebrate
champions of that endeavor. This year, we have several honorees,
and we're really looking to bump up people in the
(08:41):
education sphere who are supporting their students in understanding others,
in feeling proud of who they are, and in in
protecting their own communities. So we can we can talk
about some of those honorees. I think you should highlight uh,
you know, kind of the for the singled out educator.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Sure. Thanks.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Earlier this year, a volunteer that volunteers with ADL actually
on the Walk against tit every year. She was at
a Coney Island restaurant. She saw a group of kids
come in and she started to talk to them and
she said, are you here for a you know, like
a field trip? And they said, yeah, we came from.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Covert, Michigan.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
This is two hundred miles away and basically she learned
the story. And there was a social studies teacher named
Pam Baker, and she's from Covert High School, and Covert
is on the west side of the state. It's a
small school, and Pam was tasked to teach her students
about anti Semitism but within the context of the Holocaust.
(09:44):
And while she was doing that, she realized that the
students really weren't getting they really weren't understanding the Holocaust.
So she got her principal to get her a bus.
They drove three hours here to Farmington Hills, went to
the Holocaust, the Zeckelmann Holocaust Center, had this remarkable experience,
and then they had to eat because they're going to
drive three hours back. And that's when they met this
(10:06):
volunteer from ADL and she started to talk to them.
And for these students, some of them had never met
a Jewish person in their life, and it was just
a remarkable experience. We were talking about having people talk
to one another.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
This woman just started talking to them. She bought dessert
for the entire group.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
They started corresponding with her, they were texting her, and
we felt like this teacher went above and beyond. So
we're giving her the Path to Courage Award for bringing
her students, her entire ninth grade class three hours each way,
so it was a seven seven and a half hour trip,
so it was a long field trip that day. But
(10:47):
we're honoring Pam Baker with the Path to Education award.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Speaker 5 (10:51):
We do have nine other Jewish professionals that were awarding
in award too. It's also a Path to Courage and
these are Jewish professionals at Michigan State University, at University
of Michigan and Wayne State University who have worked through
a partnership with ADL and with students to support them
(11:13):
post October seventh in support them in any events, in
any uncomf discomfort or anti Semitism that they've experienced on campus.
Those individuals are doctor Yel Arnoff, Robin Hughey, Rabbi Bension
Sheemto from Michigan State, Rabbi Fully Eisenberg, Rabbi Alter Goldstein,
and Rabbi davey Rosen from University of Michigan. Also doctor
(11:36):
Howard Lupovich and Rabbi Israel Pinsone and Miriam Starkman from
Wayne State. They all demonstrated grit and determination an active
response during the twenty twenty four to twenty five school year.
And these professionals represent HELLEL Jabad, the Serling Institute, the
Jewish Resource Center, and the Kohne Hatouse Center for Judaic Studies.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Well, that's great congratulations to now, what a fine honor
for them to receive.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
They deserve it. They were they were the front edge
of hatred on campus this year in twenty twenty three,
twenty four, and they provided a safe haven for students.
And not only Jewish students felt the October seventh massacre
very very strongly. There were non Jewish students also, and
(12:26):
so we're pleased. It's interesting that all the honorees this
year happened to be educators are connected to the education system.
We started talking about education, and we'll always sort of
talk about education because this is a real crucial time
to get people learning, understanding and then speaking up on
(12:48):
behalf of the people that they work with and go
to school with. And so I'm really glad Makau wrote
read each one of those names, because they deserve it.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Hey McCall, why don't we talk about like if somebody
has never been to the walk before, will you describe
it for listeners they understand what's going to take place.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Yes, So the Walk against Hate that's taking place on
September twenty ninth. It's on Sunday, Sunday morning at ten am,
and it's at the Southfield Civic Center. For anyone who
hasn't been, it's a big field right next to the
Southfield Library and the City Hall. We'll have a stage
set up and there's a registration area and you know,
there'll be a little bit of food and snacks before
(13:31):
the walk. This is a family friendly event and we
have some special programming for children this year.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Also that little.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
Awards that they can receive along the walk path that
at the end they can come and exchange for a
big reward, which which might be ice cream. I guess yeah,
I think so on a Sunday morning. But the idea
is to make it, you know, comfortable and exciting for
families to come out with their children and stand with
(14:01):
their community in support of this cause. It's a under
a two mile walk along the route leading from the
City Hall and kind of around Southfield in an escorted walk.
We'll have security.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Along the way.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
There'll be water and snacks along the way as well
and h and that's kind of it. It's it's not
a major time commitment. And we're hoping for beautiful weather.
We've walked in not beautiful weather before too.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
This is the fourth year in a row that we're
that we're hosting this event and and we're expecting a
great turnout. We're excited for all of our community partners
to come and for for their teams. People are able
to create teams to raise money which helps support all
of ADL's work. And it's a it's an exciting day
and a day everyone can be proud of.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
So if somebody wants to get more involved with the
ad L, what would they do.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
The best thing?
Speaker 4 (14:56):
If you have any questions, if you want to get involved,
if you want to learn more about ad L, email
us at Michigan at a d L dot org. That's
Michigan at a like Apple, d like David L, like
Larry dot org.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
And if you want to.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Walk or sign up for the walk, you can go
to Walk Against Tate Forward slash Michigan dot com dot org.
And I also want to give a shout out to
the City of Southfield because man are they great. The
mayor has loved this event since we brought it to him.
We get a lot of support from the police and fire,
(15:35):
the emergency staff. They're just a wonderful, remarkable community to
deal with. And Southfield is very conveniently located. So we
just love being there and they love having us.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
That's wonderful. Shout out to Southfield. Way to go Southfield.
So I was really surprised last year and really disheartened
because I always think of children as more open minded,
you know, I always think, oh, the collegiate student is
kind of like a blank canvas and they're still trying
to figure things out. And when I saw like the
(16:09):
amount of hate on the college campus is it literally
broke my heart. I'm about to cry because I'm really
shocked that what might be happening, or what you what
you might guess is happening, is that people are teaching
their kids hate. You know, it's not something you go
out and learn from, you know, outside, you hear that
(16:30):
in your house, like you believe that in your heart
because you were taught that, you know. That was really disheartening,
and I guess that's you know what kind of surprised me.
I was really shocked. So it made me wonder more
about like anti seminitism across all ages.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Yeah, well we see we do our no Place for
Hate program in starting with about third grade, and you know,
Milchal talked about the family friendly event we have along
the walk. It talks to young little about friendship and
allyship and standing up for your friends and being there
for others.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
And then as you get older.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
It gets more sophisticated because the kind of incidents to
happen become more sophisticated. I would draw a line between
like mistakes or misinformation, disinformation and malinformation, and I would say, like,
when you make a mistake, your intention is pure. You
make a mistake and you ask somebody and somebody says, hey,
(17:27):
that really hurt me. That's really offensive, and you say, oh, geez,
I really didn't mean to meet to hurt you. And
that's something that's usually very easily understood, and you just
walk up to a person and you say I'm sorry.
So that's sort of miss Mistakes or misinformation. Disinformation is
when you're really trying to so discord, you're really trying
(17:47):
to tell somebody something wrong, and that's a problem, and
it takes a lot to turn people into back from
that road, and we call it the pyramid of hate,
and we feel like if you don't disrupt it, you
can't get back very easily. And in schools you really
can kind of teach the skills that are needed to
(18:08):
kind of help people get along with one another and
understand and then they find out, like you just said
at the beginning of the show, we are all people.
We are all from the same human matter and we
and human lives matter too, and they should teach in
every one of us. When you get to the real
evilness or the mail the mal information that's being set out,
(18:32):
that's just trying to sew discord in just an evil way.
And those are the people that you're never gonna You're
never going to turn their minds out. They're always going
to be trying to sew discords, trying to make things
difficult for people. And so, uh, we concentrate on the
first two. We try to concentrate on helping people understand
(18:53):
how they can help people know who they are, and
helping people who might have the wrong eye about what
they are and how they choose to live or their
religion or their ethnicity, and that is something that we
can make great strides at doing.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
And I think.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
What we saw right after ten seven is a very
very quick turn from a massacre where the whole world
was lighting up. The Eiffel Tower was blue and white,
and Number ten Downing Street was blue and white, and
the Sydney Opera Center was blue and white, and all
of a sudden, within a few days, all of a sudden,
(19:32):
hatred started turning onto the State of Israel. And I
would be remiss if I didn't say ADL is a
two state solution organization. And what I mean by that
is I can be a Zionist, I can be for
a person who believes in the state of Israel, and
I can also be somebody who cares and wants to
see a state for Palestinians. That's where ADL comes out,
(19:54):
That's where I personally come out, and that's what we
talk about because that's really important to us, and I
think it's it's really important to anyone who cares about
continued peace, and that's something that's eluded that part of
the world for a long time, and we're not going
to stop until we continue to reach for that.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
What an important part of the message that you gave
that you can be supporting both people, you know, in
what they are trying to achieve.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Yes, I think it's crucial. It's what ADL has always
been about. I think it's really important to say that
October seventh was caused by a terrorist organization. Hamas is
a world recognized terrorist organization. These are not Palestinian people.
It is a terrorist organization. And when people work together
(20:46):
to say there can be two states, and there can
be an Israel and there can be a state for Palestinians,
that's where we need to be. This is a very
complicated situation and so we would ever solve it. There
are people smarter and have many more resources than I
have right now, But I do believe that it's really
(21:09):
crucial to separate out the massacre that occurred and get
those hostages home. I wear a yellow ribbon. There are
people I know that were dog tags every day. There
are still more than one hundred people that are in captivity,
and many of them are American citizens, and we, you know,
(21:30):
we care very much about getting those hostages home.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, McCall, remind everybody how they can find out more
about the walk because we just want to make sure
that they don't miss out on this really odd Yeah,
you know, exciting event that you're going to be producing.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
Absolutely, So the Walk against Hate. It's taking place September
twenty ninth in Southfield at ten am. You can pre
register or get more information at Walk Against Hate forward
slash Michigan dot org, and you can reach out to
the ADL and get in touch by emailing Michigan at
ADL dot org.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
So, you know, I'm just thinking about what you had
said earlier about you, who you work with, what kinds
of Can you tell us a little bit more about
the cases you're seeing these days and what you're dealing with.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Well, sure, that's a very very tough question. I can
tell you that the Data ADL is a mission driven
organization and we are informed by research. So the information
that I'm about to give you is was collected and
analyzed by our centeron Extremism. I'll talk only about Michigan
because that's what I know the best, because I'm the
(22:37):
regional director for Michigan. So last year, two hundred and
sixty seven incidents of anti Semitism we were counted in
our report, and that takes out hoaxes that takes out
things that we couldn't corroborate, that takes out duplicates. In
other words, if one incident is sent to us by
five people, we only count at one time. So in
(22:59):
those incidents, which was a huge difference, I'll tell you
that it was an increase of nearly one hundred and
forty one.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Percent over the year before. Oh my goodness, it was enormous.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Across this across Michigan, seventy five cities in twenty six
Michigan counties. Just for comparison, the year before was thirty
four cities in fifteen counties, so it was double the
number of cities and double the number of counties.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
We saw just.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
A whopping one hundred and forty seven percent rise in
harassment and what I and what I mean by that
is yelling at people, calling people names, walking behind them,
and cat calling them. Vandalism was up one hundred and
five percent, so vandalism of buildings, of signs. There was
(23:54):
this happened this year just recently, an art exhibit not
too far from here, and it was vandalized with swastikas.
There was no reason for this to be to be vandalized.
It wasn't a Jewish thing. It wasn't it was just
an art exhibit.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
So what we.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
Saw was all swastikas, slastica swastikas. We've seen things vandalized
with the words the letters w LM.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
White Lives Matter.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
There's often a correlation between anti semitism and white supremacy,
not always, but often. So we saw, for example, twenty
two incidents in non Jewish schools or universities. We saw
fifty incidents in public areas.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
We saw thirty.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
One incidents on college campuses and universities. We saw nineteen
incidents that happened in businesses, and we saw thirty incidents
that happened at homes or in apartment complexes or housing units.
We also saw a percentage that we would classified as extremism.
(25:02):
These are these are extremists like white supremacists or neo
Nazis that really they are card carrying members of extremist organizations.
And so that kind of hatred was prevalent within the
confines of the audit of anti Semitic incidents.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
So it's a problem. I think.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
This is not an unsolvable problem. We have to stand up,
we have to share our facts, and we have to
show strength as as people, as Jewish people and non
Jewish people. This is not a Jewish problem, just like
racism isn't a black problem. You know, it's an everyone
problemata to put it. So, we need everyone under this tent.
(25:41):
That's why the Walk against Hate is so important, because
we are walking against hate of all kinds. I think
it's really we're at a tipping point now where we
really have to kind of determine what kind of a
country are we going to be, what kind of things
are we going to.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Put up with?
Speaker 4 (25:59):
And so we talk about standing up, and I'm talking
about tough things like standing up to your friends. You know,
if your best friend's boyfriend's cousin says something, stand up
to them. I'm not about advocating standing up with people
you don't know. You know, it's really you really have
to call in authorities. Always call police if there's been
(26:22):
a crime, Always start with police. But ADL is there
for people to report incidents too, and we look at
every single one of them.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, it takes fortitude among us all because it's scary
to stand up to people. But if if we don't,
then we're implying by our silence that it's okay, and
there is a way to do it that you know,
doesn't offend the other person but helps them understand that
we just all need to get along and there needs
to be peace and if we can just you know,
(26:52):
work more together to help each other rather than put
each other down, that's going to lift everybody up.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I think that's the right, the right addedite.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
I think there's more than enough room under this tent
for people to come together and say we want a
world where hate has no home. I'd like to I'd
like to have Michigan have zero incidents of anti Semitism, right,
zero incidents of hatred, zero incidents of Islamophobia, zero incidents
of hatred towards the LGBTQ community.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
And so on.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
This is something that we have to call out every
time we see it, and you can do that by
you know, reaching out to ADL Michigan ATADL dot org
and just say, I have an incident I'd like to report.
There's also a reporting tool on our website and we
could guide you to that, and then I would say
also to teachers, the ADL website has tremendous resources how
(27:46):
to talk to people about thorny issues. Most of the
issues that come across my desk are solvable, but some
of them have to be nuanced and you have to
kind of really really delve into them.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
So it's really important for need to help people.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Get the right information, and we do that by educating,
by advocating, and by holding people accountable for incidents of hatred.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Do you love what you do?
Speaker 4 (28:12):
This is the hardest job I've ever done, and it's
the most rewarding job I have ever done. It's sometimes
the incidents are really hard for my team. I worry
about my team. We do a lot of respite care,
We do a lot of checking in on each other.
But I would have to say all it takes is
one incident where a parent calls us and says you
(28:34):
change the life of my kid, or my kid feels
better about going to school now, and then we sit
up a little straighter and we throw our shoulders back.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
So yeah, we love our jobs.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
And I can't say enough about our lay leaders, to
our volunteers, people like Michal who's the vice chair of
our board, and she gives a tremendous amount of time
people who want to work on behalf of ADL and
by the way. You don't have to be Jewish to
work for radio, you don't have to be Jewish to
be on our board, you don't have to be Jewish
to join our young Leadership program. Because we start where
(29:08):
we begin, we fight anti Semitism and we secure equal
justice and fair treatment from.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Well, there, there it is. That's a great way to
wrap it up. I really appreciate everything that you said.
I mean, we really just want to no more hate,
hatey our hateless Michigan. That's what it is.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
I'm going to stam up today. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, our guests today have been Carolyn Normanden and macal Nodell,
both with Anti Defamation League Michigan Chapter. Thank you both
for joining us today. Really appreciate it and looking forward
to your walk on September twenty ninth over in Southfield,
the Walk against Hate. Thank you so.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Much, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yes, this has been light Up the d a community,
a fairs program from iHeartMedia Detroit. If your organization would
like to get on the program, email Colleen Grant at
iHeartMedia dot com. Your all episodes on this station's podcast page.
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