June 16, 2025 • 8 mins
Pete Sepp joined the program to discuss expanding the electric grid.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The energy grid needs updated. I think we've all heard
that before, and it seems to be getting more urgent, however,
and here to talk about that with us is Pete
sep He is the president of the National Taxpayers Union. Pete,
we appreciate you taking time this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Well, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And of course President Trump has focused on energy dominance,
and we hear about all the processing centers for AI
and such that we need more electricity on the grid,
and it seems like we're not anywhere near that point,
right Pete.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
We don't have a long way to go, And in fact,
most projections show that we're going to need about one
hundred and fifty to one hundred and sixty five percent
more electricity generation capacity by the year twenty thirty. That's
five years from now all and well, largely because of
the growth of data centers and artificial intelligence, both of
(01:01):
which really take a lot of power, and taxpayers have
a big stake in this. We can meet this demand
one of two ways, by letting the private sector make
investments in a reasonably regulated environment with reasonable taxes, or
we can try and subsidize it with a lot of
(01:22):
taxpayer dollars. We preferred the former direction rather than the latter.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, and of course updating the grid energy innovation. That's
all good things. Specifically in Ohio, we have had rate
increases here this summer, and we know that things are
going to get tight. Maybe even this summer we could
have I don't want to call them blackouts, Pete, but
we've already heard how maybe this summer there might be
(01:51):
days where Ohio has not enough electricity, right.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, and that should concern everybody in that There are
now what are called advanced transmission technologies that can help
shoulder some of that load. An example is grid enhancement.
Right now, it's kind of difficult to manage the loads
of electricity moving through wires under certain heat and cold
(02:19):
and other weather conditions. Well, what a grid enhancing technology
does is optimize the flow of electricity through those wires
so when the weather permits, you run more power through
them than when it doesn't. That's one example. There are
also advanced conductors. In other words, the wires themselves can
(02:41):
be replaced, no need for new sighting and new permitting,
just replace the old wires with ones that have a
capacity to generate and run fifty percent higher load those
are ways that we can do things like meat generation
capacity and transmission capacity with a lot less money, a
(03:03):
lot less time, and hopefully no huge taxpayer or ratepayer increases.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Pete Sepp is our guest. He as the president of
the National Taxpayers Union. We're talking about updating and expanding
the energy grid and specifically in Ohio, and that would
be something that could help economic development. We hear about
these possible data centers and other things coming to Ohio,
(03:29):
the big projects going on specifically around Columbus, the huge
deal going on there. How close is Ohio to expanding
the grid or how much of a problem could it
be here?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, I think we are making a lot of progress
in Ohio. Taking a look at the legislation Housepill fifteen
that's passed that will encourage local utilities to consider some
of those advanced transmission technologies I just spoke about. Will
also have what's called a shot clock, in other words,
(04:03):
a limited period of time for regulators to evaluate new
projects and get them online and moving more quickly. One
type of project is called behind the meter power delivery,
when a data center wants its own source of power
generation and transmission, rather than having to tap into the
(04:25):
current conventional grid. You've got to have a permitting process
that supports that, so they can set up a natural
gas plant or some other power source need it, and
that benefits rate payers as well. That means the ratepayers
as along with taxpayers, aren't subsidizing the construction of these
(04:46):
generation facilities. The business is taking the risk. And you're
right to point out Ohio is becoming a technological powerhouse
because of these data centers. I saw some figures from
an allied organization showing Ohio is the fourth largest number
of data centers either in place, planned or under construction
(05:10):
in the entire country out of all fifty states. Number four.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
That's pretty good. But to keep that going, how to
improve the electric grid and that could boost Ohio's competitiveness
even more. And really, Pete, that's what it's about. If
you can get these innovations here and more of those
data centers and more jobs at boosts of the Ohio
economy and helps everybody.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yes, absolutely it does. And Ohio has some policy ground
to make up here, but Housepill fifteen that's already enacted
in the laws a good start. Neighboring Indiana is doing
similar things, so Ohio needs to keep competitive. That not
only includes the electricity and energy system, but the tax
(05:58):
system as well. Ohio ranked thirty fifth on the Tax
Foundation's Business and Personal Tax Climate scale needs to do
better than that. Because Indiana is in the top ten.
There are other states in the region that are doing
a lot of great things with their tax systems, keeping
(06:19):
the rates low, simplifying them. Ohio's got to keep up
with that, Pete.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
With that in mind, let's veer into a couple of
tax policy questions. Pete Sepp of the National Taxpayer Union,
is with us the idea of a single rate income
tax in Ohio instead of two rates. Now what do
you think about that? And then this idea of abolishing
property tax in Ohio completely, That could be very chaotic,
(06:47):
even if you agree with it in principle. Talk about
those two things well.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Certainly, concentrating on the income tax first would be the
smart bet. That's what a lot of states across the
country are doing. There has been a quiet revolution toward
lower and flatter income taxes in the past five years
or so across the country. Iowa's doing it, Both Carolinas
are moving in that direction. Missouri is doing it. You're
(07:15):
seeing it everywhere across the country, and it's benefiting states
by generating economic activity, making the system simpler to comply with,
and still retaining fairness in the system. As long as
you have a reasonably large standard deduction, you can still
have a flat rate income tax where the poor and
(07:39):
the working class are protected from heavy taxes while everybody
else benefits from a single simple rate. So that's where
I go first. The property tax, well, you always have
to be careful about complexity there varying assessments and classes
of property. But if you do away with it, you
have to be careful to have a revenue source readily
(08:02):
available that's stable and not subject to economics swings. Otherwise
you could be in serious trouble down the line if
there's an economic downturn.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah, and I'm not sure what that would be with
this Ohio proposal of eliminating property tax. So I got
a feeling that's not going to pass with the voters,
but it is an idea being kicked around. Pete Sepp
is the president of the National Taxpayers Union. Pete, we
appreciate you taking time for us.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
My pleasure
The energy grid needs updated. I think we've all heard
that before, and it seems to be getting more urgent, however,
and here to talk about that with us is Pete
sep He is the president of the National Taxpayers Union. Pete,
we appreciate you taking time this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Well, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And of course President Trump has focused on energy dominance,
and we hear about all the processing centers for AI
and such that we need more electricity on the grid,
and it seems like we're not anywhere near that point,
right Pete.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
We don't have a long way to go, And in fact,
most projections show that we're going to need about one
hundred and fifty to one hundred and sixty five percent
more electricity generation capacity by the year twenty thirty. That's
five years from now all and well, largely because of
the growth of data centers and artificial intelligence, both of
(01:01):
which really take a lot of power, and taxpayers have
a big stake in this. We can meet this demand
one of two ways, by letting the private sector make
investments in a reasonably regulated environment with reasonable taxes, or
we can try and subsidize it with a lot of
(01:22):
taxpayer dollars. We preferred the former direction rather than the latter.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, and of course updating the grid energy innovation. That's
all good things. Specifically in Ohio, we have had rate
increases here this summer, and we know that things are
going to get tight. Maybe even this summer we could
have I don't want to call them blackouts, Pete, but
we've already heard how maybe this summer there might be
(01:51):
days where Ohio has not enough electricity, right.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, and that should concern everybody in that There are
now what are called advanced transmission technologies that can help
shoulder some of that load. An example is grid enhancement.
Right now, it's kind of difficult to manage the loads
of electricity moving through wires under certain heat and cold
(02:19):
and other weather conditions. Well, what a grid enhancing technology
does is optimize the flow of electricity through those wires
so when the weather permits, you run more power through
them than when it doesn't. That's one example. There are
also advanced conductors. In other words, the wires themselves can
(02:41):
be replaced, no need for new sighting and new permitting,
just replace the old wires with ones that have a
capacity to generate and run fifty percent higher load those
are ways that we can do things like meat generation
capacity and transmission capacity with a lot less money, a
(03:03):
lot less time, and hopefully no huge taxpayer or ratepayer increases.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Pete Sepp is our guest. He as the president of
the National Taxpayers Union. We're talking about updating and expanding
the energy grid and specifically in Ohio, and that would
be something that could help economic development. We hear about
these possible data centers and other things coming to Ohio,
(03:29):
the big projects going on specifically around Columbus, the huge
deal going on there. How close is Ohio to expanding
the grid or how much of a problem could it
be here?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, I think we are making a lot of progress
in Ohio. Taking a look at the legislation Housepill fifteen
that's passed that will encourage local utilities to consider some
of those advanced transmission technologies I just spoke about. Will
also have what's called a shot clock, in other words,
(04:03):
a limited period of time for regulators to evaluate new
projects and get them online and moving more quickly. One
type of project is called behind the meter power delivery,
when a data center wants its own source of power
generation and transmission, rather than having to tap into the
(04:25):
current conventional grid. You've got to have a permitting process
that supports that, so they can set up a natural
gas plant or some other power source need it, and
that benefits rate payers as well. That means the ratepayers
as along with taxpayers, aren't subsidizing the construction of these
(04:46):
generation facilities. The business is taking the risk. And you're
right to point out Ohio is becoming a technological powerhouse
because of these data centers. I saw some figures from
an allied organization showing Ohio is the fourth largest number
of data centers either in place, planned or under construction
(05:10):
in the entire country out of all fifty states. Number four.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
That's pretty good. But to keep that going, how to
improve the electric grid and that could boost Ohio's competitiveness
even more. And really, Pete, that's what it's about. If
you can get these innovations here and more of those
data centers and more jobs at boosts of the Ohio
economy and helps everybody.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yes, absolutely it does. And Ohio has some policy ground
to make up here, but Housepill fifteen that's already enacted
in the laws a good start. Neighboring Indiana is doing
similar things, so Ohio needs to keep competitive. That not
only includes the electricity and energy system, but the tax
(05:58):
system as well. Ohio ranked thirty fifth on the Tax
Foundation's Business and Personal Tax Climate scale needs to do
better than that. Because Indiana is in the top ten.
There are other states in the region that are doing
a lot of great things with their tax systems, keeping
(06:19):
the rates low, simplifying them. Ohio's got to keep up
with that, Pete.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
With that in mind, let's veer into a couple of
tax policy questions. Pete Sepp of the National Taxpayer Union,
is with us the idea of a single rate income
tax in Ohio instead of two rates. Now what do
you think about that? And then this idea of abolishing
property tax in Ohio completely, That could be very chaotic,
(06:47):
even if you agree with it in principle. Talk about
those two things well.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Certainly, concentrating on the income tax first would be the
smart bet. That's what a lot of states across the
country are doing. There has been a quiet revolution toward
lower and flatter income taxes in the past five years
or so across the country. Iowa's doing it, Both Carolinas
are moving in that direction. Missouri is doing it. You're
(07:15):
seeing it everywhere across the country, and it's benefiting states
by generating economic activity, making the system simpler to comply with,
and still retaining fairness in the system. As long as
you have a reasonably large standard deduction, you can still
have a flat rate income tax where the poor and
(07:39):
the working class are protected from heavy taxes while everybody
else benefits from a single simple rate. So that's where
I go first. The property tax, well, you always have
to be careful about complexity there varying assessments and classes
of property. But if you do away with it, you
have to be careful to have a revenue source readily
(08:02):
available that's stable and not subject to economics swings. Otherwise
you could be in serious trouble down the line if
there's an economic downturn.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah, and I'm not sure what that would be with
this Ohio proposal of eliminating property tax. So I got
a feeling that's not going to pass with the voters,
but it is an idea being kicked around. Pete Sepp
is the president of the National Taxpayers Union. Pete, we
appreciate you taking time for us.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
My pleasure
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