June 3, 2023 • 17 mins
Gaming can be a very beneficial tool when it comes to learning life skills. Guild Chronicles, based in Lexington, have created a special roleplaying game and educational program to help autistic and neurodivergent kids learn social-emotional skills. Andrew Harris, CEO and Founder of Guild Chronicles, joins Nichole this week to talk about the game and how Guild Chronicles works with schools and therapists to support young people and their development.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
From WBZ News Radio in Boston.This is New England Weekend where each week
we come together we talk about allthe topics important to you and the place
where you live. It's great tobe back with you again this week.
I'm Nicole Davis. Now it maynot seem this way, but gaming can
actually be a really beneficial tool whenit comes to learning in school. Back
in the day twenty plus years ago, I remember when I was in school,
(00:30):
I learned how to type using agame called Mavis Beacon. During the
pandemic, kids were using games likeCahoo to interactively learn while they were apart
at home. Even classic games arebrought out sometimes in the classroom, like
pictionaries, categories, bingo, soon and so forth. There's a certain
type of game out there called atabletop board game. If you're not familiar,
and through a game like this,kids can pick up special skills that
(00:51):
they may not always develop through lookingat a textbook. We're talking strategy,
problem solving, social cognitive skills,and many more. These, of course,
are specially critical for kids who areneurodivergent or autistic. Andrew Harris is
putting that to the test with hisgame The guilt Chronicles and it's working.
Andrew's on the show with us rightnow to talk about this. It's great
to have you with us, Andrew. For those who may not know neurodivergent,
(01:15):
tell us what that term means.It comes out of the idea of
the neurodiversity movement and the nerdiversity movement. I think is really important. It
provides a different way of thinking aboutwhat are typically referred to as disabilities diagnoses
that someone might get. So itframes the diversity of minds as being like
a natural part of the human experience. So what you know, autism,
(01:36):
ADHD, All of these different labelsare sort of They are both challenges and
there are also great strengths that comewith them. So when I talk about
neurodiversity, I'm really talking about peoplewhose minds are just a little bit different
and that kind of makes them especiallyadept at some areas, maybe especially challenge
in other areas. So when Italk about myself as a nerdivergient, I
(01:57):
have a lot of executive dysfunction.I interact socially a little bit differently than
maybe most people do. When Italk about the folks that I work with,
they have lots of different diagnoses,but they're all just sort of do
things a little bit differently. Butthe game kind of is what they all
have in common and draws them alltogether. So it's just, I don't
know, it's a really exciting modalityto work to work in, and I
(02:19):
think the new diversity framework kind ofmakes us all feel a little bit we're
not We're not talking about the thingsthat are wrong with us. We're talking
about the things that are different andthe things that we are figuring out together.
Yeah, tell us then, howthat parlays into Guild Chronicles. What
does neurodiversity have to do with playinga game per se? Yeah? Yeah,
So I started working on the GuildChronicles projects because I was working in
(02:43):
schools. I was working a lotwith folks that had sort of social goals
on their IEP, so they're lookingto practice or develop social skills. And
I was a gamer. I wasa lifelong gamer at that point, and
just when I met a kid thatreally wanted to learn to play these games,
I was like, oh my god, that's such a natural fit.
So playing these games you need alot of social skills to do it.
(03:05):
So you're collaborating to battle dragons,or you're negotiating to solve some sort of
problem with like the mayor or someevil wizard or something, and all of
these all of these things require aton of social interaction, a ton of
collaborative skills. And then the excitingthing is that the kids are motivated.
I find it very difficult to getkids motivated to like listen to a lecture
or to hear me talk. Butwhen they get to go on these adventures
(03:29):
together, they're motivated and they seethe value of the skills that they're developing.
So it really it developed out ofthis sort of interest in fostering these
skills and the realization that these skillswere a big part of something that a
lot of kids already had a greatpassion for. And then just from that
point it was just keep delving intothat idea, keep finding ways to kind
(03:50):
of build it up and make iteven more more adapted to learning. Inevitably,
I'm sure you've heard the question whyare you gaming in school? School
learning? Why are you playing tabletopgames in school? Like? What is
this? Is this after school?Like? Talk to us about Essentially,
there's a movement out there to bringgaming into school talk to us about why
(04:11):
that matters and how that can helpkids. Yeah, so there's there's growing
evidence that and this, I meanto me, this makes a ton of
sense. But to some people it'sshocking. If you're enjoying yourself, you
learn better. And this is Imean to me, this is this is
not revelatory. This was my experiencein school. Um, this is my
experience in college when I was inan area that I enjoyed and I connected
to and I had passioned, Ilearned, and I kept that knowledge inside
(04:34):
of me. So I think there'sthere's a growing knowledge, a growing understanding
that this is sort of like havingfun is important. And then there's movements
in education like project based learning andall this sort of like hands on experiential
stuff is people are starting to noticethat. Again, sometimes you don't learn
it the best from a book,and certainly for a lot of people,
(04:55):
you don't learn best from a book. So the kind of folks that I'm
usually working are going to learn bestby doing, and this is giving them
an opportunity to do that. Iused to get a ton of pushback around
games in school or you know,why why are we doing this? Or
you know the concerns about it beingdistracting for the kids, But as soon
as teachers sort of saw the kidsin the space and working together and what
(05:17):
they accomplished and how excited they wereto be doing it, it really Yeah,
people get it really quickly. Andthose soft skills are really important,
you know, because web we obviouslyhave reading and writing and all that other
stuff. I guess maybe not curseof anymore, but you know what I'm
saying, like, yeah, thecritical skills that you learn in elementary and
middle and high school, but softskills, I think are something that people
(05:41):
don't focus on as much. Andthen when you're yeeded essentially into the adult
world, there's a lot of uswho are like, how do I adult?
How do I exist? Oh?My gosh, socializing? What is
this? I think we essentially assumethat kids just pick up social skills throughout
their childhood and that's just simply notthe case. Yeah. I think it's
it's definitely not the case for evenyour neurotypical kid. And I think the
(06:02):
pandemic was sort of showing us this. We get to see it in like
a really acute way that um,kids, if they don't have these opportunities,
and if they don't have some structureand they don't have adults coaching them
and giving them feedback, it's reallyhard to develop these skills. And then
if you look at sort of likeautistic type minds, it's it's hard anyway.
And then we're adding in all ofthese other other challenges on top of
(06:23):
that. So, yeah, havinghaving these skills, they're going to help
you in any career you go into. They're going to help you. They're
going to help you in the classesthat you're in. It's going to help
you advocate when you need help.It's going to help you with your relationships.
Are going to be happier. Um, I don't know. To me,
it's it's critical. I don't useall the stuff that I learned in
high school anymore. But those socialskills, those leadership skills that I developed,
(06:46):
those those I think I employed daily. And that's I don't know,
that's that's that's an exciting thing forme, and people are catching on.
I really when I go to mydaughter's school, they talk about this,
They talk about sel social emotional learning, they talk about they have a curriculum
for at the activities for it.So this is it's coming out, and
it's really cool to be working ata time when people are catching on around
here and looking for these kind ofsolutions. I love that. So let's
(07:10):
talk about the Guilt chronicles for peoplewho don't know what it is, or
people who generally aren't gamers, like, what exactly is this game and what
do you do? Yeah, soit's a it's a tabletop role playing game.
So that means we're typically gathering arounda table. There's a rule book
that's like a couple hundred pages.We have dice, we have character sheets
(07:31):
that have like all the different thingsthat our heroes can do on there.
And each person that's gathering around thetable is imagining themselves as a hero in
a fantasy story. So wonderful fantasystories like Ursula, Kayla Gwin's books,
or Gerald Tolkien's books, people readHarry Potter, the Rick Reordan series,
all of these worlds could be putinto a tabletop role playing game. But
(07:56):
the players get to imagine themselves asheroes, as characters in that story.
And then one person is facilitating thegame. Their role is called the storyteller,
and guild chronicles they're coming up withlike a framework for a narrative like
a story, like the bones ofa story, and then the players are
choosing how to interact with that andnavigate through that. So there could be
(08:16):
exciting battles and the characters that playersall get to use their they're diced and
their different powers, and they getto work together to try to overcome enemies.
There's opportunities to be acting and roleplaying and imagining yourself as your character
and speaking as your character. Yeah, it's it's it's like an epic adventure
around a dinner table or around aoffice table. Yeah, it's a really
(08:37):
exciting, fun kind of game thatreally lets you kind of show your creativity
and show your I don't know,different parts of yourself that don't always get
to come out in other ways.That's so cool, And I love the
fact again that you're bringing this intoschools. You have the game, but
then you have the educational program that'sin schools around the base state. So
what is the educational side of thislooking like right now? Yeah. So
(09:00):
I started developing the game because Iwas working in schools and there was an
interest there, and I was tryingto use other games like Dungeons and Dragons
that were kind of out there onthe market, and they just they were
kind of clunky, they were hardto learn. It was just a difficult
lift. So I just was like, I'm going to make my own game.
And then I realized that because Iwas making my own game, I
could build it in a way thatsort of made it easier to practice these
(09:24):
skills, that made it have moreopportunities to have interactions with the players together.
So for years I was working inpublic schools as a teaching assistant and
I was using this under the supervisionof some really amazing supervisors. From there,
I went to Master General Hospitals Aspireprogram, where I worked for seven
years, and this was a bigpart of my work there. I brought
(09:45):
the program there and had a tonof people working on it and learning through
it. And now it's sort ofso now I'm I'm on my own I've
got my own office, my hostgroups there, and I basically groups of
kids and teens and young adults.They'll apply to in the group, I'll
meet them. I'll try to seeif I can build a group that I
think would really give them opportunities toconnect with other people. And then we
(10:07):
meet weekly. We tell stories together, we explore themes, we develop characters.
There's a lot of self reflection,lots of opportunities to kind of get
feedback and coached when they want it. Yeah, it's just a really fun
way to learn. It really doesa great job building self esteem, I
think is something it does very verywell, and building these connections that last.
I've got people that have been ingroups with me for eight years that've
(10:30):
got long term friends that they've sortof made through this. Some of them
now work for me as interns andthey're sort of helping you develop the game,
develop the next steps for the company. So yeah, it's it's really
cool. Builds a lot of community, builds a lot of confidence, and
a lot of skills. That issuch a success story. And I'm sure
there were some inevitably some roadblocks andbrick walls along the way, because you
(10:52):
know, I watch a lot ofShark Tank and stuff. But I just
know from people in my life thatbuilding a company, not just a game,
but like building a company from thebottom up is not easy. Then
when you try to tie in,like the school system tell me about like
some of the hurdles you've had tojump over to get this done. Yeah,
I mean it's it's it's definitely challenging. I mean trying to sell it
to a school. So I mightmeet like a really passionate therapist that works
(11:15):
at the school that loves the idea, But then, you know, we
need to convince the principle. Oncethe principles on board, we need to
convince the parents of each of thesekids that we want to get involved in
the program. So yeah, there'sdefinitely opportunities for it to kind of get
sidetracked or slowed down there. Whenthe pandemic started, I had a bunch
of contracts that sort of evaporated becauseeveryone was suddenly trying to figure out how
(11:37):
to even do social skill stuff?Can we move it online? What else
can we do? Yeah, butno, I've been really lucky. I
mean, my family supports me reallywell. My wife and my daughter loved
the game, their partners in theproject. They have been able to make
the financials work while I try tofigure out how to run my own company.
Yeah, yes, yeah, butI've just been really privileged to have
(11:58):
the opportunity to do it. Andyeah, I mean little little hiccups here
and there, but it's it's acool experience and it's a great journey and
yeah, I definitely wouldn't trade itfor anything. I love this. I
love this. So your your mission, you know it centers around this mantram
nothing about us without us. Thatis a very powerful statement. What does
that mean to you? And howdo you tie this into the work you
(12:20):
do with the guilt chronicles. Yeah, so this, this comes out of
the disability community, the disability movement, and it's it's really really important.
I think for a long time,people that interventions that were being developed there
was no consultation with the people theywere being developed for, So they get
left out of the process. Meaningfulfeedback that could have been gathered isn't gathered,
(12:45):
and programs just don't develop one maybenecessarily as effectively as they could.
And two they don't feel as goodto the people that are that are undergoing
them. So I noticed when Iwas when I was working with a lot
of adults, they were telling methings like, you know, my experience
in special education or my experience insocial skills groups was almost shaming. I
(13:05):
felt broken, I felt wrong,there was something bad about it. And
I when I was hearing these stories, I realized that a lot of it
had to do with they weren't beingtaught in a way that was sort of
aligned with the way that they sawthemselves. So you know, I'm myself
from nerrodivergent. The sort of thethings that I put into the game that
(13:28):
definitely helps it that I'm nerdivergent.But the game was only kind of good
until I started play testing it withdozens and then hundreds of nerdi Urgent youth,
and they gave me the best feedback, and that's when I really started
to hone. It was when Istarted to see the people that I was
supporting as my collaborators. So we'veI've had that mentality the whole time.
I anytime I'm going to make achange to the game, anytime I'm trying
(13:50):
out a new intervention inside a group, I'm always doing it with feedback and
looking for involvement from the community.And now as I'm getting the chance to
hire some people and bring on interns, that's a huge part of our mission
where we're looking for neurodivergent people.I want to build a team with really
diverse minds because then we can dodifferent things really well. We can have
(14:13):
different perspectives, just like you wantdiversity in general in a team of people
having neurodiversity, and the team ofpeople I found has just really really pushed
the game forward, and that's somethingI want other gaming companies to figure this
out. Like, there's a lotof barriers to getting into into this industry,
Yeah, especially if you're autistic,if you have that sort of profile,
it can be really difficult. AndI'm finding ways to break down those
(14:37):
barriers and make it a place whereit's easy for people to work and where
they feel valued and their differences aresort of like embraced, And I want
that. I want that to catchon more places. I think there's a
huge untapped potential in this community thatI would love to see really get activated.
I agree. And then let's talkabout where where you're reaching, where
(14:58):
you're centered, because I know you'rein math Massachusetts, and I know you've
been working with some schools in Massachusetts. Where can kids go to school and
take part in guilt chronicles? Howmany schools are you in right now?
Yeah? So before the pandemic,I was definitely in more and now that
I'm I'm starting up again, myfocus this year has really been on the
(15:18):
book and trying to get the bookpublished. Okay, I'm in discussion.
So in my hometown in Lexington,where I live, I would love to
have this. This be something thatmy daughter could do in her school,
so I've been talking a lot withher school. There was one of the
patrons from our Kickstarter campaign made abig donation to donate it to a school
and they chose Lexington to be thatschool. So that's a place that they
(15:41):
will hopefully be very soon. I'veworked in private schools in the in the
Wellsy area. I've worked in somepublic schools. I started off in Whaland
public schools. I want to givethem a shout out for believing in this
more than ten years ago. Theyreally fostered it. They really believed in
it. They supported the growth.They're quite a bit. There's a new
clinic that's going to be opening uppretty soon. I've been talking with the
(16:03):
director there. That might be anotheroption. But most of the groups right
now are happening out of my ownoffice in Lexington. I've got a nice
little homey space where people can come. I've got game boards. It's the
coolest place you could ever work.Everyone that comes in is like, this
is where you get to work,kind of jealous, not gonna like it's
really cool, it's really cool.Oh cool? All right. So then
if people want to, if theywant to get in touch with you,
(16:26):
if they want to, if they'rehearing this, maybe they work in a
school system, they want to thinkabout getting Guild Chronicles into their schools,
or they just want to maybe joinone of your groups. Where can they
find you? Yeah, so Ithink the best place to start is at
my website. I'm at www dotguild Chronicles dot com. Okay, you
can find all my social media accountsthere, my email addresses there. There's
(16:47):
a way that you can apply fora group online, but I think yeah,
I think the best way would justto be to contact me by email
there. I'm really eager, reallyexcited to collaborate with more people. I
want to info dump about this toanyone that will listen. It's really fun
and it's it's really exciting to findlike minded people that that sort of see
the see the potential in it andget excited about it because it's a really
(17:08):
really fun way to support kids.I think it's great. All right.
Andrew Harris from Guilt Chronicles, allthe best to you. As you forge
ahead in this next journey. Idon't know, I haven't gamed in a
while. I'm getting even chronology you'rewrong, but have a you know.
I hope that things go so wellfor you with the game, and thank
you for being on the show.I appreciate it both so much. Thank
you, Nicole, have a safeand healthy weekend. Please join me again
(17:30):
next week for another edition of theshow. I'm Nicole Davis from WBEZ News
Radio on iHeartRadio.
From WBZ News Radio in Boston.This is New England Weekend where each week
we come together we talk about allthe topics important to you and the place
where you live. It's great tobe back with you again this week.
I'm Nicole Davis. Now it maynot seem this way, but gaming can
actually be a really beneficial tool whenit comes to learning in school. Back
in the day twenty plus years ago, I remember when I was in school,
(00:30):
I learned how to type using agame called Mavis Beacon. During the
pandemic, kids were using games likeCahoo to interactively learn while they were apart
at home. Even classic games arebrought out sometimes in the classroom, like
pictionaries, categories, bingo, soon and so forth. There's a certain
type of game out there called atabletop board game. If you're not familiar,
and through a game like this,kids can pick up special skills that
(00:51):
they may not always develop through lookingat a textbook. We're talking strategy,
problem solving, social cognitive skills,and many more. These, of course,
are specially critical for kids who areneurodivergent or autistic. Andrew Harris is
putting that to the test with hisgame The guilt Chronicles and it's working.
Andrew's on the show with us rightnow to talk about this. It's great
to have you with us, Andrew. For those who may not know neurodivergent,
(01:15):
tell us what that term means.It comes out of the idea of
the neurodiversity movement and the nerdiversity movement. I think is really important. It
provides a different way of thinking aboutwhat are typically referred to as disabilities diagnoses
that someone might get. So itframes the diversity of minds as being like
a natural part of the human experience. So what you know, autism,
(01:36):
ADHD, All of these different labelsare sort of They are both challenges and
there are also great strengths that comewith them. So when I talk about
neurodiversity, I'm really talking about peoplewhose minds are just a little bit different
and that kind of makes them especiallyadept at some areas, maybe especially challenge
in other areas. So when Italk about myself as a nerdivergient, I
(01:57):
have a lot of executive dysfunction.I interact socially a little bit differently than
maybe most people do. When Italk about the folks that I work with,
they have lots of different diagnoses,but they're all just sort of do
things a little bit differently. Butthe game kind of is what they all
have in common and draws them alltogether. So it's just, I don't
know, it's a really exciting modalityto work to work in, and I
(02:19):
think the new diversity framework kind ofmakes us all feel a little bit we're
not We're not talking about the thingsthat are wrong with us. We're talking
about the things that are different andthe things that we are figuring out together.
Yeah, tell us then, howthat parlays into Guild Chronicles. What
does neurodiversity have to do with playinga game per se? Yeah? Yeah,
So I started working on the GuildChronicles projects because I was working in
(02:43):
schools. I was working a lotwith folks that had sort of social goals
on their IEP, so they're lookingto practice or develop social skills. And
I was a gamer. I wasa lifelong gamer at that point, and
just when I met a kid thatreally wanted to learn to play these games,
I was like, oh my god, that's such a natural fit.
So playing these games you need alot of social skills to do it.
(03:05):
So you're collaborating to battle dragons,or you're negotiating to solve some sort of
problem with like the mayor or someevil wizard or something, and all of
these all of these things require aton of social interaction, a ton of
collaborative skills. And then the excitingthing is that the kids are motivated.
I find it very difficult to getkids motivated to like listen to a lecture
or to hear me talk. Butwhen they get to go on these adventures
(03:29):
together, they're motivated and they seethe value of the skills that they're developing.
So it really it developed out ofthis sort of interest in fostering these
skills and the realization that these skillswere a big part of something that a
lot of kids already had a greatpassion for. And then just from that
point it was just keep delving intothat idea, keep finding ways to kind
(03:50):
of build it up and make iteven more more adapted to learning. Inevitably,
I'm sure you've heard the question whyare you gaming in school? School
learning? Why are you playing tabletopgames in school? Like? What is
this? Is this after school?Like? Talk to us about Essentially,
there's a movement out there to bringgaming into school talk to us about why
(04:11):
that matters and how that can helpkids. Yeah, so there's there's growing
evidence that and this, I meanto me, this makes a ton of
sense. But to some people it'sshocking. If you're enjoying yourself, you
learn better. And this is Imean to me, this is this is
not revelatory. This was my experiencein school. Um, this is my
experience in college when I was inan area that I enjoyed and I connected
to and I had passioned, Ilearned, and I kept that knowledge inside
(04:34):
of me. So I think there'sthere's a growing knowledge, a growing understanding
that this is sort of like havingfun is important. And then there's movements
in education like project based learning andall this sort of like hands on experiential
stuff is people are starting to noticethat. Again, sometimes you don't learn
it the best from a book,and certainly for a lot of people,
(04:55):
you don't learn best from a book. So the kind of folks that I'm
usually working are going to learn bestby doing, and this is giving them
an opportunity to do that. Iused to get a ton of pushback around
games in school or you know,why why are we doing this? Or
you know the concerns about it beingdistracting for the kids, But as soon
as teachers sort of saw the kidsin the space and working together and what
(05:17):
they accomplished and how excited they wereto be doing it, it really Yeah,
people get it really quickly. Andthose soft skills are really important,
you know, because web we obviouslyhave reading and writing and all that other
stuff. I guess maybe not curseof anymore, but you know what I'm
saying, like, yeah, thecritical skills that you learn in elementary and
middle and high school, but softskills, I think are something that people
(05:41):
don't focus on as much. Andthen when you're yeeded essentially into the adult
world, there's a lot of uswho are like, how do I adult?
How do I exist? Oh?My gosh, socializing? What is
this? I think we essentially assumethat kids just pick up social skills throughout
their childhood and that's just simply notthe case. Yeah. I think it's
it's definitely not the case for evenyour neurotypical kid. And I think the
(06:02):
pandemic was sort of showing us this. We get to see it in like
a really acute way that um,kids, if they don't have these opportunities,
and if they don't have some structureand they don't have adults coaching them
and giving them feedback, it's reallyhard to develop these skills. And then
if you look at sort of likeautistic type minds, it's it's hard anyway.
And then we're adding in all ofthese other other challenges on top of
(06:23):
that. So, yeah, havinghaving these skills, they're going to help
you in any career you go into. They're going to help you. They're
going to help you in the classesthat you're in. It's going to help
you advocate when you need help.It's going to help you with your relationships.
Are going to be happier. Um, I don't know. To me,
it's it's critical. I don't useall the stuff that I learned in
high school anymore. But those socialskills, those leadership skills that I developed,
(06:46):
those those I think I employed daily. And that's I don't know,
that's that's that's an exciting thing forme, and people are catching on.
I really when I go to mydaughter's school, they talk about this,
They talk about sel social emotional learning, they talk about they have a curriculum
for at the activities for it.So this is it's coming out, and
it's really cool to be working ata time when people are catching on around
here and looking for these kind ofsolutions. I love that. So let's
(07:10):
talk about the Guilt chronicles for peoplewho don't know what it is, or
people who generally aren't gamers, like, what exactly is this game and what
do you do? Yeah, soit's a it's a tabletop role playing game.
So that means we're typically gathering arounda table. There's a rule book
that's like a couple hundred pages.We have dice, we have character sheets
(07:31):
that have like all the different thingsthat our heroes can do on there.
And each person that's gathering around thetable is imagining themselves as a hero in
a fantasy story. So wonderful fantasystories like Ursula, Kayla Gwin's books,
or Gerald Tolkien's books, people readHarry Potter, the Rick Reordan series,
all of these worlds could be putinto a tabletop role playing game. But
(07:56):
the players get to imagine themselves asheroes, as characters in that story.
And then one person is facilitating thegame. Their role is called the storyteller,
and guild chronicles they're coming up withlike a framework for a narrative like
a story, like the bones ofa story, and then the players are
choosing how to interact with that andnavigate through that. So there could be
(08:16):
exciting battles and the characters that playersall get to use their they're diced and
their different powers, and they getto work together to try to overcome enemies.
There's opportunities to be acting and roleplaying and imagining yourself as your character
and speaking as your character. Yeah, it's it's it's like an epic adventure
around a dinner table or around aoffice table. Yeah, it's a really
(08:37):
exciting, fun kind of game thatreally lets you kind of show your creativity
and show your I don't know,different parts of yourself that don't always get
to come out in other ways.That's so cool, And I love the
fact again that you're bringing this intoschools. You have the game, but
then you have the educational program that'sin schools around the base state. So
what is the educational side of thislooking like right now? Yeah. So
(09:00):
I started developing the game because Iwas working in schools and there was an
interest there, and I was tryingto use other games like Dungeons and Dragons
that were kind of out there onthe market, and they just they were
kind of clunky, they were hardto learn. It was just a difficult
lift. So I just was like, I'm going to make my own game.
And then I realized that because Iwas making my own game, I
could build it in a way thatsort of made it easier to practice these
(09:24):
skills, that made it have moreopportunities to have interactions with the players together.
So for years I was working inpublic schools as a teaching assistant and
I was using this under the supervisionof some really amazing supervisors. From there,
I went to Master General Hospitals Aspireprogram, where I worked for seven
years, and this was a bigpart of my work there. I brought
(09:45):
the program there and had a tonof people working on it and learning through
it. And now it's sort ofso now I'm I'm on my own I've
got my own office, my hostgroups there, and I basically groups of
kids and teens and young adults.They'll apply to in the group, I'll
meet them. I'll try to seeif I can build a group that I
think would really give them opportunities toconnect with other people. And then we
(10:07):
meet weekly. We tell stories together, we explore themes, we develop characters.
There's a lot of self reflection,lots of opportunities to kind of get
feedback and coached when they want it. Yeah, it's just a really fun
way to learn. It really doesa great job building self esteem, I
think is something it does very verywell, and building these connections that last.
I've got people that have been ingroups with me for eight years that've
(10:30):
got long term friends that they've sortof made through this. Some of them
now work for me as interns andthey're sort of helping you develop the game,
develop the next steps for the company. So yeah, it's it's really
cool. Builds a lot of community, builds a lot of confidence, and
a lot of skills. That issuch a success story. And I'm sure
there were some inevitably some roadblocks andbrick walls along the way, because you
(10:52):
know, I watch a lot ofShark Tank and stuff. But I just
know from people in my life thatbuilding a company, not just a game,
but like building a company from thebottom up is not easy. Then
when you try to tie in,like the school system tell me about like
some of the hurdles you've had tojump over to get this done. Yeah,
I mean it's it's it's definitely challenging. I mean trying to sell it
to a school. So I mightmeet like a really passionate therapist that works
(11:15):
at the school that loves the idea, But then, you know, we
need to convince the principle. Oncethe principles on board, we need to
convince the parents of each of thesekids that we want to get involved in
the program. So yeah, there'sdefinitely opportunities for it to kind of get
sidetracked or slowed down there. Whenthe pandemic started, I had a bunch
of contracts that sort of evaporated becauseeveryone was suddenly trying to figure out how
(11:37):
to even do social skill stuff?Can we move it online? What else
can we do? Yeah, butno, I've been really lucky. I
mean, my family supports me reallywell. My wife and my daughter loved
the game, their partners in theproject. They have been able to make
the financials work while I try tofigure out how to run my own company.
Yeah, yes, yeah, butI've just been really privileged to have
(11:58):
the opportunity to do it. Andyeah, I mean little little hiccups here
and there, but it's it's acool experience and it's a great journey and
yeah, I definitely wouldn't trade itfor anything. I love this. I
love this. So your your mission, you know it centers around this mantram
nothing about us without us. Thatis a very powerful statement. What does
that mean to you? And howdo you tie this into the work you
(12:20):
do with the guilt chronicles. Yeah, so this, this comes out of
the disability community, the disability movement, and it's it's really really important.
I think for a long time,people that interventions that were being developed there
was no consultation with the people theywere being developed for, So they get
left out of the process. Meaningfulfeedback that could have been gathered isn't gathered,
(12:45):
and programs just don't develop one maybenecessarily as effectively as they could.
And two they don't feel as goodto the people that are that are undergoing
them. So I noticed when Iwas when I was working with a lot
of adults, they were telling methings like, you know, my experience
in special education or my experience insocial skills groups was almost shaming. I
(13:05):
felt broken, I felt wrong,there was something bad about it. And
I when I was hearing these stories, I realized that a lot of it
had to do with they weren't beingtaught in a way that was sort of
aligned with the way that they sawthemselves. So you know, I'm myself
from nerrodivergent. The sort of thethings that I put into the game that
(13:28):
definitely helps it that I'm nerdivergent.But the game was only kind of good
until I started play testing it withdozens and then hundreds of nerdi Urgent youth,
and they gave me the best feedback, and that's when I really started
to hone. It was when Istarted to see the people that I was
supporting as my collaborators. So we'veI've had that mentality the whole time.
I anytime I'm going to make achange to the game, anytime I'm trying
(13:50):
out a new intervention inside a group, I'm always doing it with feedback and
looking for involvement from the community.And now as I'm getting the chance to
hire some people and bring on interns, that's a huge part of our mission
where we're looking for neurodivergent people.I want to build a team with really
diverse minds because then we can dodifferent things really well. We can have
(14:13):
different perspectives, just like you wantdiversity in general in a team of people
having neurodiversity, and the team ofpeople I found has just really really pushed
the game forward, and that's somethingI want other gaming companies to figure this
out. Like, there's a lotof barriers to getting into into this industry,
Yeah, especially if you're autistic,if you have that sort of profile,
it can be really difficult. AndI'm finding ways to break down those
(14:37):
barriers and make it a place whereit's easy for people to work and where
they feel valued and their differences aresort of like embraced, And I want
that. I want that to catchon more places. I think there's a
huge untapped potential in this community thatI would love to see really get activated.
I agree. And then let's talkabout where where you're reaching, where
(14:58):
you're centered, because I know you'rein math Massachusetts, and I know you've
been working with some schools in Massachusetts. Where can kids go to school and
take part in guilt chronicles? Howmany schools are you in right now?
Yeah? So before the pandemic,I was definitely in more and now that
I'm I'm starting up again, myfocus this year has really been on the
(15:18):
book and trying to get the bookpublished. Okay, I'm in discussion.
So in my hometown in Lexington,where I live, I would love to
have this. This be something thatmy daughter could do in her school,
so I've been talking a lot withher school. There was one of the
patrons from our Kickstarter campaign made abig donation to donate it to a school
and they chose Lexington to be thatschool. So that's a place that they
(15:41):
will hopefully be very soon. I'veworked in private schools in the in the
Wellsy area. I've worked in somepublic schools. I started off in Whaland
public schools. I want to givethem a shout out for believing in this
more than ten years ago. Theyreally fostered it. They really believed in
it. They supported the growth.They're quite a bit. There's a new
clinic that's going to be opening uppretty soon. I've been talking with the
(16:03):
director there. That might be anotheroption. But most of the groups right
now are happening out of my ownoffice in Lexington. I've got a nice
little homey space where people can come. I've got game boards. It's the
coolest place you could ever work.Everyone that comes in is like, this
is where you get to work,kind of jealous, not gonna like it's
really cool, it's really cool.Oh cool? All right. So then
if people want to, if theywant to get in touch with you,
(16:26):
if they want to, if they'rehearing this, maybe they work in a
school system, they want to thinkabout getting Guild Chronicles into their schools,
or they just want to maybe joinone of your groups. Where can they
find you? Yeah, so Ithink the best place to start is at
my website. I'm at www dotguild Chronicles dot com. Okay, you
can find all my social media accountsthere, my email addresses there. There's
(16:47):
a way that you can apply fora group online, but I think yeah,
I think the best way would justto be to contact me by email
there. I'm really eager, reallyexcited to collaborate with more people. I
want to info dump about this toanyone that will listen. It's really fun
and it's it's really exciting to findlike minded people that that sort of see
the see the potential in it andget excited about it because it's a really
(17:08):
really fun way to support kids.I think it's great. All right.
Andrew Harris from Guilt Chronicles, allthe best to you. As you forge
ahead in this next journey. Idon't know, I haven't gamed in a
while. I'm getting even chronology you'rewrong, but have a you know.
I hope that things go so wellfor you with the game, and thank
you for being on the show.I appreciate it both so much. Thank
you, Nicole, have a safeand healthy weekend. Please join me again
(17:30):
next week for another edition of theshow. I'm Nicole Davis from WBEZ News
Radio on iHeartRadio.
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