November 29, 2025 • 16 mins
This is a huge weekend for holiday shopping, with big box stores, online chains, and small businesses alike offering up deep discounts. New data from the Retailers Association of Massachusetts shows our Main Street businesses could really use some holiday love in order to keep them thriving into 2026 and beyond. Jon Hurst, President and CEO of the Retailers Association of Massachusetts, returns to the show to talk with Nichole about the state of our small businesses this season.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
From WBZ News Radio in Boston. This is New England Weekend.
Each and every week right here, we come together, we
talk about all the topics important to you and the
place where you live. Well, you had a great Thanksgiving
with your loved ones. Thanks so much for tuning in.
I'm Nicole Davis. Honestly, for weeks now, it seems like
before Halloween its started, we've been getting bombarded with lots
(00:28):
of holiday deals. But this weekend, when it comes to
holiday shopping, is the main event. You've got Black Friday,
Small Business Saturday, National Secondhand Sunday, Cyber Monday, and all
of that together can be a major boost for local businesses. Unfortunately,
new data shows that online shopping and big box stores
are actually getting most of our attention. John Hurst, the
(00:50):
president of the Retailers Association of Massachusetts, is back with
us on the show this week. It's great to have
you back.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
John.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Give us a bit more detail, I guess if you could,
about what exactly is happening here.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well so far, Nicole, what we're seeing is a really
an extension of what we've seen for the you know,
the ten months leading up to November and the holiday
season of course, which which we define as November and December.
You know, year to date, we're about two percent up
over last year. You know, not great, that's a little
(01:23):
bit below the rate of inflation that you want to
try to to meet that. But still, anytime that you
can beat the prior year, uh, you know, you've got
to be satisfied with that and hope that perhaps you
can do a little bit more. But but yeah, you know, look,
it's it's it's a situation in which consumers are watching
(01:44):
every dollar they you know, they're they're certainly aware of
things that have affected their own take come pay their
disposable income, you know, whether it's you know, more of
it going to taxes, more going to you know, utilities
or or or health insurance costs, you know, and those
(02:06):
things are are cutting down on the disposable income. So
so they are being cautious and and and that means
they're you know, doing a lot of comparison shopping and
and and looking looking at where they can get the
best deal for the uh for the for the best
service and best delivery. And you know that's uh, that's
(02:28):
a challenge because the consumer is in charge, right, It's
particularly a challenge for the smaller business because you know,
their their margins are really tight, and and and and
their marketing efforts are are constrained by by where they
are with those costs of doing business and versus their sales.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, I was thinking about that with the big box stores.
Obviously it's a huge time of year for them. How
can a small business compete when you're trying to get
a customer in there who is already really, like you said,
scrimping and counting every dime and every penny here, well,
whatever pennies are left, how can a small business compete here?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Well, you know, it's all about the experience, right, It's
been that way for decades, Nicole, and it's it's going
to continue to be that way. You know, You've got
to you you have to show the the the right
level of inventory mix and and uh, you know that
that element of surprise and and and uh, you know
(03:30):
goods that small businesses really excel at, and that it's
the inventory as well as the services that you know,
they they still have that edge versus their their big
box competition and certainly versus the online competition. Uh, you
know that's you know, their challenge, of course, is to
get the consumer through the front door in the first place,
(03:52):
and that's where, uh, you know, reminding the consumer the
importance of investing some of those dollars locally in events
like small Business Saturday is coming up and other promotion efforts.
You know, it's very important because you know, the consumers
seventy percent of the economy, but you know they can
(04:14):
you know, with the power of the smartphone, they can
send those dollars anywhere around the world without ever leaving
their couch. So small business really needs to get the
consumers through the front door in the first place, and
then you know, really wow them with the goods that
they have, you know, something that they weren't expecting. They
may have gone in there, you know, with the idea
(04:36):
of buying something one one gift, but then you know,
while they're in there, the thing that the brick and
mortar smaller stores still have our impulse buies. Impulse buys
are still about a third of all retail sales, and
you've got to you know, really build upon those those
impulse buys, get the consumer to buy more than what
(04:58):
they planned on, and also get them back through your
front door time and time again, and and and that's
the key. Those repeat sales and those unplanned sales are
what can make or break your holiday sales season.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
What I love about shopping small and with small businesses
is that the money is going right back into my neighborhood.
It's essentially fueling our local economy, which I feel can
only do good. I mean, yeah, of course, sometimes you
have to go to the big supermarkets and you have
to go to the big box stores. But anytime that
we can infuse that money back into our own neighborhoods,
I mean that's a good thing, right.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, absolutely, and it's very important that people like you
and I, you know, drill that that message home over
and over again, because you know, sometimes convenience wins out
over what's right, and you know, we're frankly, you know,
the challenge, Nicole, is that we're seeing a trend that
(05:53):
that's a little bit troubling for this some of these
small businesses we've seen, you know, particularly since since COVID.
You know, look think about what happened five years ago
with the shutdowns and restrictions, but also messaging that drove
that drove more sales to the smartphone than anything that
has happened since the invention of the iPhone. Uh and
(06:15):
and to some extent those habits, you know, the habits
that we created five years ago and three and four
years ago, and even things like like our work habits,
how we're where we're working, how we're working, and so forth,
that has has changed our philosophies a lot of us
as consumers on the spending, and you know, it is
(06:40):
very important that we we step back and we take
a look at what percentage of our own spending as
as individual consumers, are we spending on main streets? Are
we spending with these these local businesses versus we all
you know, we all spend some online. I do as well,
but but you know, the dramatic change and shifts are
(07:04):
getting a little worrisome. You know, I look at pre
covid that the holiday sales season of twenty nineteen was
under twenty percent online sales. There are projections for this
holiday season that it will exceed forty percent.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
So those are dramatic changes. And yes, small businesses are
doing what they can to get online and sell a
certain percentage of their transactions online, but they're still not there.
On a ratio of brick and mortar to online sales.
As the big national chains are the big national companies.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
They don't have as much of a buffer against tariffs
and other major economic headwinds that they're probably facing right now.
What are you hearing from business owners here in Massachusetts
about the economic side of this, not necessarily just the
customer side, but trying to stay afloat in general. How
are they doing?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Well? They're very concerned about costs. You know, we've we've
done we've done a lot of surveyings of of these
small businesses and and and look there there they're they're
concerned that the fact that their their sales really are
relatively flat over the last recent years, yet their their costs,
the costs of employing people, the cost of running that
(08:21):
brick and mortar store are up extensively. Uh, you know,
we've we've we've seen that over and over again. We've seen, uh,
you know, some stores, you know, they're really complaining about
their the cost of their health insurance, the cost of
their energy, their their utility bills, you know, payroll taxes
and the like. All these all these costs have gone
(08:44):
up far faster than what their sales have. And and
and that's that's a that's an issue that really puts
a lot of pressure on the profitability and and you know,
we've seen them, Nicole, You've seen it. I've seen it,
the dark storefronts, and I were concerned whether we're to
see more of those. A recent study that we did
with the UMS Donahue Institute projected that these small businesses
(09:07):
that responded to that study back in the spring, fifty
one percent expected to sell or close their business within
five years. That's on top of what we've already seen.
So we really need to double down and give these
small businesses the future and make it a real objective
that you know, if we're going to if we're going
(09:29):
to spend as a family one thousand dollars for holiday gifts,
you know, we need all of us individually to really
plan on doing half of that to small businesses on
our main streets. Just just really make a conscious effort
to invest in these small businesses because there are neighbors,
there are there are friends and family, and they employ
(09:53):
people that we know, and they populate our main streets
and and if they go, they're not going to come back.
And you know, we have a long history of vibrant
main streets here in Massachusetts and across New England. The
main street was invented here, yeah, about four hundred years ago,
and we've got to you know, it's never been harder.
(10:15):
We just have to work collectively harder to make sure
that that they have a good, solid holiday sales season
and they and hope for the future.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
How are you over, the Retailers Association of Massachusetts, what
are you able to do to help prop these businesses up?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Well, we're trying to do the best that we can
can to promote them. We're doing ad campaigns, you know,
to you know, to remind folks to spend local, you
know where you know. I think it's a two pronged approach.
We've got to remind the consumer to shop like jobs
depend on it, because they do. And we also need
(10:51):
to remind our elected officials, the public policy leaders that
they need to do take a look in the mirror,
engage in a bit of introspection. Are there state laws
and and and public policy uh at at local, state
and federal levels that that whether whether it's whether they're
(11:13):
well intended or not, UH could disproportionately hurt the small businesses. Uh.
You know, the cost of of of employing people, of
renting a storefront, of of obtaining uh inventory, you know,
and and all that gets back to things including uh,
you know, from property taxes to sales taxes, to to
(11:35):
payroll taxes, to tariffs to UH heating heating bills, electricity bills,
to health insurance premiums UH to employ uh a workforce
you know, for a small business. Some of those some
of those costs are self inflicted by government policies, and
(11:56):
and and government can do a better job to make
sure that these small businesses, you know, are not put
at a competitive disadvantage by you know, large businesses that
are better equipped to cover the costs of these mandates.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
What is your advice to small business owners who are
trying to pivot, trying to you know, make sure that
they can get as many shoppers in the door as possible.
And then I guess secondly, what's your advice to shoppers.
We've talked about it a couple of times, but let's
just kind of get it home again and tell people
what they need to know.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Well, for the seller, look, work cooperatively with with the
other small businesses in your shopping and dining district, you know,
market together, you know, try to get the consumers to
come in and visit your storefront, your restaurant and and uh,
you know, cross promote while you're there, while you're shopping
(12:50):
for some holiday gifts, drop into this to the restaurant
next door, and and and have dinner or lunch and
and and keep some dollars local. And you know, give
them a great, great experience that brings them back time
and time again. Uh. And you know it's it's consumers
will come back, you know if if they find something
(13:12):
that is a great value and great service and they
really have a good entertainment type of experience and and
shopping still is is entertainment, right. You know, that's something
that that the big internet sellers cannot replicate, you know,
versus the the the smaller sellers that are actually employing people.
(13:35):
You know, differentiate yourself from uh, from those big sellers
through an experience and great selection and great service and
great promotion. And you know that's that's for the seller
and and for the the consumer. You know, just remember that. Yeah,
convenience is important. We all we all have convenience and
(13:59):
sometimes it's you know, so easy just to pick up
the smartphone and use AI and all the other tools
that are available to us to have something delivered to
your front doorstep the next morning. But keep in mind
those dollars. When we do that, it goes into somebody
else's economy. So you know, I'm not saying you've got
(14:22):
to totally avoid those options. We need to spread dollars around,
but make sure that we all have goals to keep
a certain percentage of our spending right here where we
live and work.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
All right, Well, where can small businesses find you online?
How can they connect? They want to join the association?
How can they do that?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Well, you can find us at RETAILERSIMA dot org. We
have four thousand members across the Commonwealth. They're primarily small businesses.
We provide a lot of group buying type of services
nicole that help them on their bottom line. These costs
that we talked about, whether there's a group buying a
health insurance, workers compensation. Credit card processing is a huge
(15:05):
thing now. Every time people come in and swipe a
credit card, it costs that small business a lot of money,
you know, And these are the types of services we're
trying to deliver to these small businesses to level the
playing field with their big competition, lower the cost of
employing people, lower the cost of serving consumers, so they
(15:26):
can have a chance at competing and a chance to
having a good, strong, viable future in our communities.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
All Right, RETAILERSMA dot Org. John Hurst from the Retailers
Association of Massachusetts. I always get so much insight talking
to you. Thank you for standing up for our small businesses,
and I hope they have a much busier holiday season
than they ever imagined.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Thank you so much, Nicole, have a safe.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
And healthy weekend. Join us again next week for another
edition of the show. I'm Nicole Davis from WBZ News
Radio on iHeartRadio.
From WBZ News Radio in Boston. This is New England Weekend.
Each and every week right here, we come together, we
talk about all the topics important to you and the
place where you live. Well, you had a great Thanksgiving
with your loved ones. Thanks so much for tuning in.
I'm Nicole Davis. Honestly, for weeks now, it seems like
before Halloween its started, we've been getting bombarded with lots
(00:28):
of holiday deals. But this weekend, when it comes to
holiday shopping, is the main event. You've got Black Friday,
Small Business Saturday, National Secondhand Sunday, Cyber Monday, and all
of that together can be a major boost for local businesses. Unfortunately,
new data shows that online shopping and big box stores
are actually getting most of our attention. John Hurst, the
(00:50):
president of the Retailers Association of Massachusetts, is back with
us on the show this week. It's great to have
you back.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
John.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Give us a bit more detail, I guess if you could,
about what exactly is happening here.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well so far, Nicole, what we're seeing is a really
an extension of what we've seen for the you know,
the ten months leading up to November and the holiday
season of course, which which we define as November and December.
You know, year to date, we're about two percent up
over last year. You know, not great, that's a little
(01:23):
bit below the rate of inflation that you want to
try to to meet that. But still, anytime that you
can beat the prior year, uh, you know, you've got
to be satisfied with that and hope that perhaps you
can do a little bit more. But but yeah, you know, look,
it's it's it's a situation in which consumers are watching
(01:44):
every dollar they you know, they're they're certainly aware of
things that have affected their own take come pay their
disposable income, you know, whether it's you know, more of
it going to taxes, more going to you know, utilities
or or or health insurance costs, you know, and those
(02:06):
things are are cutting down on the disposable income. So
so they are being cautious and and and that means
they're you know, doing a lot of comparison shopping and
and and looking looking at where they can get the
best deal for the uh for the for the best
service and best delivery. And you know that's uh, that's
(02:28):
a challenge because the consumer is in charge, right, It's
particularly a challenge for the smaller business because you know,
their their margins are really tight, and and and and
their marketing efforts are are constrained by by where they
are with those costs of doing business and versus their sales.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, I was thinking about that with the big box stores.
Obviously it's a huge time of year for them. How
can a small business compete when you're trying to get
a customer in there who is already really, like you said,
scrimping and counting every dime and every penny here, well,
whatever pennies are left, how can a small business compete here?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Well, you know, it's all about the experience, right, It's
been that way for decades, Nicole, and it's it's going
to continue to be that way. You know, You've got
to you you have to show the the the right
level of inventory mix and and uh, you know that
that element of surprise and and and uh, you know
(03:30):
goods that small businesses really excel at, and that it's
the inventory as well as the services that you know,
they they still have that edge versus their their big
box competition and certainly versus the online competition. Uh, you
know that's you know, their challenge, of course, is to
get the consumer through the front door in the first place,
(03:52):
and that's where, uh, you know, reminding the consumer the
importance of investing some of those dollars locally in events
like small Business Saturday is coming up and other promotion efforts.
You know, it's very important because you know, the consumers
seventy percent of the economy, but you know they can
(04:14):
you know, with the power of the smartphone, they can
send those dollars anywhere around the world without ever leaving
their couch. So small business really needs to get the
consumers through the front door in the first place, and
then you know, really wow them with the goods that
they have, you know, something that they weren't expecting. They
may have gone in there, you know, with the idea
(04:36):
of buying something one one gift, but then you know,
while they're in there, the thing that the brick and
mortar smaller stores still have our impulse buies. Impulse buys
are still about a third of all retail sales, and
you've got to you know, really build upon those those
impulse buys, get the consumer to buy more than what
(04:58):
they planned on, and also get them back through your
front door time and time again, and and and that's
the key. Those repeat sales and those unplanned sales are
what can make or break your holiday sales season.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
What I love about shopping small and with small businesses
is that the money is going right back into my neighborhood.
It's essentially fueling our local economy, which I feel can
only do good. I mean, yeah, of course, sometimes you
have to go to the big supermarkets and you have
to go to the big box stores. But anytime that
we can infuse that money back into our own neighborhoods,
I mean that's a good thing, right.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, absolutely, and it's very important that people like you
and I, you know, drill that that message home over
and over again, because you know, sometimes convenience wins out
over what's right, and you know, we're frankly, you know,
the challenge, Nicole, is that we're seeing a trend that
(05:53):
that's a little bit troubling for this some of these
small businesses we've seen, you know, particularly since since COVID.
You know, look think about what happened five years ago
with the shutdowns and restrictions, but also messaging that drove
that drove more sales to the smartphone than anything that
has happened since the invention of the iPhone. Uh and
(06:15):
and to some extent those habits, you know, the habits
that we created five years ago and three and four
years ago, and even things like like our work habits,
how we're where we're working, how we're working, and so forth,
that has has changed our philosophies a lot of us
as consumers on the spending, and you know, it is
(06:40):
very important that we we step back and we take
a look at what percentage of our own spending as
as individual consumers, are we spending on main streets? Are
we spending with these these local businesses versus we all
you know, we all spend some online. I do as well,
but but you know, the dramatic change and shifts are
(07:04):
getting a little worrisome. You know, I look at pre
covid that the holiday sales season of twenty nineteen was
under twenty percent online sales. There are projections for this
holiday season that it will exceed forty percent.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
So those are dramatic changes. And yes, small businesses are
doing what they can to get online and sell a
certain percentage of their transactions online, but they're still not there.
On a ratio of brick and mortar to online sales.
As the big national chains are the big national companies.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
They don't have as much of a buffer against tariffs
and other major economic headwinds that they're probably facing right now.
What are you hearing from business owners here in Massachusetts
about the economic side of this, not necessarily just the
customer side, but trying to stay afloat in general. How
are they doing?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Well? They're very concerned about costs. You know, we've we've
done we've done a lot of surveyings of of these
small businesses and and and look there there they're they're
concerned that the fact that their their sales really are
relatively flat over the last recent years, yet their their costs,
the costs of employing people, the cost of running that
(08:21):
brick and mortar store are up extensively. Uh, you know,
we've we've we've seen that over and over again. We've seen, uh,
you know, some stores, you know, they're really complaining about
their the cost of their health insurance, the cost of
their energy, their their utility bills, you know, payroll taxes
and the like. All these all these costs have gone
(08:44):
up far faster than what their sales have. And and
and that's that's a that's an issue that really puts
a lot of pressure on the profitability and and you know,
we've seen them, Nicole, You've seen it. I've seen it,
the dark storefronts, and I were concerned whether we're to
see more of those. A recent study that we did
with the UMS Donahue Institute projected that these small businesses
(09:07):
that responded to that study back in the spring, fifty
one percent expected to sell or close their business within
five years. That's on top of what we've already seen.
So we really need to double down and give these
small businesses the future and make it a real objective
that you know, if we're going to if we're going
(09:29):
to spend as a family one thousand dollars for holiday gifts,
you know, we need all of us individually to really
plan on doing half of that to small businesses on
our main streets. Just just really make a conscious effort
to invest in these small businesses because there are neighbors,
there are there are friends and family, and they employ
(09:53):
people that we know, and they populate our main streets
and and if they go, they're not going to come back.
And you know, we have a long history of vibrant
main streets here in Massachusetts and across New England. The
main street was invented here, yeah, about four hundred years ago,
and we've got to you know, it's never been harder.
(10:15):
We just have to work collectively harder to make sure
that that they have a good, solid holiday sales season
and they and hope for the future.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
How are you over, the Retailers Association of Massachusetts, what
are you able to do to help prop these businesses up?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Well, we're trying to do the best that we can
can to promote them. We're doing ad campaigns, you know,
to you know, to remind folks to spend local, you
know where you know. I think it's a two pronged approach.
We've got to remind the consumer to shop like jobs
depend on it, because they do. And we also need
(10:51):
to remind our elected officials, the public policy leaders that
they need to do take a look in the mirror,
engage in a bit of introspection. Are there state laws
and and and public policy uh at at local, state
and federal levels that that whether whether it's whether they're
(11:13):
well intended or not, UH could disproportionately hurt the small businesses. Uh.
You know, the cost of of of employing people, of
renting a storefront, of of obtaining uh inventory, you know,
and and all that gets back to things including uh,
you know, from property taxes to sales taxes, to to
(11:35):
payroll taxes, to tariffs to UH heating heating bills, electricity bills,
to health insurance premiums UH to employ uh a workforce
you know, for a small business. Some of those some
of those costs are self inflicted by government policies, and
(11:56):
and and government can do a better job to make
sure that these small businesses, you know, are not put
at a competitive disadvantage by you know, large businesses that
are better equipped to cover the costs of these mandates.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
What is your advice to small business owners who are
trying to pivot, trying to you know, make sure that
they can get as many shoppers in the door as possible.
And then I guess secondly, what's your advice to shoppers.
We've talked about it a couple of times, but let's
just kind of get it home again and tell people
what they need to know.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Well, for the seller, look, work cooperatively with with the
other small businesses in your shopping and dining district, you know,
market together, you know, try to get the consumers to
come in and visit your storefront, your restaurant and and uh,
you know, cross promote while you're there, while you're shopping
(12:50):
for some holiday gifts, drop into this to the restaurant
next door, and and and have dinner or lunch and
and and keep some dollars local. And you know, give
them a great, great experience that brings them back time
and time again. Uh. And you know it's it's consumers
will come back, you know if if they find something
(13:12):
that is a great value and great service and they
really have a good entertainment type of experience and and
shopping still is is entertainment, right. You know, that's something
that that the big internet sellers cannot replicate, you know,
versus the the the smaller sellers that are actually employing people.
(13:35):
You know, differentiate yourself from uh, from those big sellers
through an experience and great selection and great service and
great promotion. And you know that's that's for the seller
and and for the the consumer. You know, just remember that. Yeah,
convenience is important. We all we all have convenience and
(13:59):
sometimes it's you know, so easy just to pick up
the smartphone and use AI and all the other tools
that are available to us to have something delivered to
your front doorstep the next morning. But keep in mind
those dollars. When we do that, it goes into somebody
else's economy. So you know, I'm not saying you've got
(14:22):
to totally avoid those options. We need to spread dollars around,
but make sure that we all have goals to keep
a certain percentage of our spending right here where we
live and work.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
All right, Well, where can small businesses find you online?
How can they connect? They want to join the association?
How can they do that?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Well, you can find us at RETAILERSIMA dot org. We
have four thousand members across the Commonwealth. They're primarily small businesses.
We provide a lot of group buying type of services
nicole that help them on their bottom line. These costs
that we talked about, whether there's a group buying a
health insurance, workers compensation. Credit card processing is a huge
(15:05):
thing now. Every time people come in and swipe a
credit card, it costs that small business a lot of money,
you know, And these are the types of services we're
trying to deliver to these small businesses to level the
playing field with their big competition, lower the cost of
employing people, lower the cost of serving consumers, so they
(15:26):
can have a chance at competing and a chance to
having a good, strong, viable future in our communities.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
All Right, RETAILERSMA dot Org. John Hurst from the Retailers
Association of Massachusetts. I always get so much insight talking
to you. Thank you for standing up for our small businesses,
and I hope they have a much busier holiday season
than they ever imagined.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Thank you so much, Nicole, have a safe.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
And healthy weekend. Join us again next week for another
edition of the show. I'm Nicole Davis from WBZ News
Radio on iHeartRadio.
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