May 6, 2023 • 42 mins
This week on OVERTIME, Dean Spiliotes stops by to talk about some polling that says Republican voters are still convinced Trump won in 2020, Bob Lipman on the Kentucky Derby, and Justin rants about a NH Media person's stupid tweets about 10 Year Olds working at McDonalds.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Welcome to Overtime. I'm you're devastatinglyhandsome and also quite humble. Host Justin
mcizac, the only working class personin the media as far as I can
tell, this week on Overtime andtalk to Edie Scilionis, who appears on
the Hampshire Day a bunch sometimes itbills in as a guest host. There
was some pulling from CBS which caughtmy eye, and some of that said,
(00:28):
the folks that are gonna vote forDonald Trump in twenty twenty four are
voting for him because he actually weren'tin twenty twenty. So we talked about
that and kind of the historical havethere in American politics? Have there been?
Is there a historical comparable to whatwe're seeing right now within the American
Republican Party where it's really at thispoint it's a cult personality and there's still
(00:50):
some people being frozen out. Sowe talked about that. Also, there
was some other pulling that said eightyseven percent of Republican voters want someone that
fights woke values over those are Iknow what being woke used to be.
I know what it's I gotta havea good sense of what it's been co
opted to be basically means are youfor equality? Oh, we don't like
(01:11):
that, so that's uh. Wetalk about that and a whole bunch of
other stuff as well. It's ait's a good conversation with Dean. Also
check it with Bob Blitman. It'sDerby Weekend, Uh, Bob Lilittman.
I knew I was gonna get alongwell with Bob Blitman. He and I
do the UNH football games together anda whole bunch of other sports type things.
I knew I was gonna get alongwell with Bob after I got the
UNH gig. I kind of knewBob a little bit, but we hadn't
(01:34):
really worked together. And when Ifound out he liked the ponies, I
was like, Okay, this isa guy I can I can form a
relationship with. If he's into that, we're gonna get along just fine.
And I have proven to be right. Bob always gives me a couple of
horses to look out for and towager on. And then I I say,
Bob's Bob's a smart guy, andhe's usually right about this, and
that's what I'm gonna do this year. And then I don't and then I
(01:56):
lose. So hopefully this will bethe year Bob's advice and do exactly what
he says. But we'll see.We'll see, and he gives you his
picks on a long shot pick aswell. So many dumb things happening this
week to talk about, but thedumbest that stood out to me. And
usually when it comes to dumb things, I'm a big fan of dumb stuff,
(02:20):
especially in the world of sports.The dumber the better. When it
comes to actual real life, I'dlike things to be I know they won't
ever not be dumb, but I'dlike them to be like twenty percent last
dumb. I think I could livewith that. The dumbest thing I saw
though, and I'll read the headlinedirectly from the NBC News website, ten
year olds found among hundreds of children, hundreds of children working at McDonald's restaurants.
(02:46):
Apparently in the specific one that's gottenall the headlines is the two ten
year olds that were working unpaid anduntil as late as two am and one
McDonald's restaurant in Louisville, Kentucky.Bower Food LLC apparently runs most of these
McDonalds. I'll read directly from thestory just for a little bit. I
won't read the entire story because that'sboring. You wouldn't want to hear that.
(03:08):
But anyway, more than three hundredchildren, including two ten year olds,
were found working at McDonald's restaurants acrossKentucky and other states in violation of
federal labor laws. Scording to thelater Labor Department. In one case,
investigators found two ten year olds wereworking unpaid. I don't know why the
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unpaid thing sticks out to be atthis story, because it's even if they
were even if they were making abag, even they were making bank,
it's still horrible anyway, working unpaiduntil as late as two am and one
McDonald's and Louisville, operated by bourFood, which is based in Louisville.
Two children. This is great,and I want to know if they if
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they had like a manager there orif they were just like if one was
in charge of the other. Butthe two children prepared and distributed food orders
clear the store, worked at thedrive through a window and operating a register.
Investigators found one of them was alsoallowed to operate a deep friar,
a task prohibited for workers under theage of sixteen. I have to say,
(04:15):
now I haven't been to a McDonald'sand since since I was eighteen when
I started being a vegetarian. Thereain't no vegetarian options at McDonald's. And
I guess the apple pie might be, but even the French fries there have
like a little bit of beef fatin them, which is weird. But
that's not the point. The pointis this, if you go through a
drive through a McDonald's and you seea ten year old working a register,
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we're gonna work in the window.I'm not one for snitching, but you
kind of have to drop a dimeat that point, right, because now
it's a human rights violation. MostI will continue the story. Most of
the restaurants, forty five of thesixty or sixty two restaurants where kids were
working, forty five of them werein Kentucky. This kind of like seems
on brand for Kentucky. At leastthe two ten year olds were among at
(05:00):
least three hundred and five children foundto have been employed a violation of federal
labor laws. Three hundred and fivekids. So at that point, it's
not a mistake, it's a policy, right, Like yeah, let's hire
these kids, and let's and alsolet's not pay them. So on the
one hand, this is kind oflike a natural consequence of unrestrained capitalism,
right at some point, you know, because this happened in the early twentieth
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century. Then you know, kidsare working in mills, especially around here,
and then they were like, oh, you know, maybe it's not
great for kids to be losing fingersand machines. Maybe they should actually be
like getting an education and not youknow, being tiny little workers getting named.
So he said, all right,enough for that. Now it's going
the other way. There's a lawin Arkansas that says kids teenagers like fourteen
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fifteen work fifteen hour days that theTyson Food processing plant. By the way,
the guy that owns Tyson just happensto be a big donor to Sarah
Huckabe Sanders, the governor of Arkansas. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
So I think there was some lossin Missouri too, all the states you'd
imagine where they're like, what havewe got. These kids weren't gonna stand
we can play him like Nicks nothing. And then the CEO could have a
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boat. Inside his boat, thingsare starting to go the like with a
lot of things. Things are startingto go the wrong way with a lot
of that. That's not the thingthat completely tracked down my attention on all
this, though, which I knowis hard to believe. The thing that
got my attention the most was areaction from Drew Klein, who used to
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work at the Union Leader. Ibelieve right now he's the president of the
Josiah Bartlett Center also hosts a radioshow at a competing radio station. And
I want to I want to beclear, if Drew Klein worked with me,
I would say, I'm not goingafter this tweet because he works at
another radio station. If he workedhere, I would be I'd probably go
after him even harder. But thetweeting question is, and he's quite he's
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co tweeting the news and observer whokind of did a story about this whole
thing. Here. I will readDrews tweet. It says, I agree
that ten year olds shouldn't be workingat McDonald's. Period. Good so far,
so far, I'm with you,And then he says, but and
that's where you got it, andthat's where you lost the plot, that's
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where you went off the rails.Because now after the butt that means there's
a justification or at least of bothsidesing, well, yes, we're there,
ten year olds working on paid untiltwo am. Yes, and that's
bad, but maybe it kind ofisn't bad. I'll I'll read the rest
(07:41):
of Drews tweet. And by theway, you don't have to tweet about
this. You could have just leftit as I agree that ten year olds
should be working at McDonald's. That'ssomething everyone should agree to everybody. That
should be like a baseline. Youshouldn't have to say it. You shouldn't
need to tweet that part. Youcould just be like, oh yeah.
You could just think to yourself,I agree this, or go on your
(08:01):
radio show and say, yeah,I agree. That's an easy layup.
Make your layups, right, that'swhat they say in basketball. This one's
a layup blue the layup. I'msorry, I'll continue. I agree that
ten year olds shouldn't be working onMcDonald's, but just for context. What
context do you need? It's aten year old working at McDonald's till two
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am for no money, excuse me, but just for context. Scouts this
age know how to set up tenseby themselves, use a pocket knife and
cook robbeat over a fire they startedby themselves. It's okay not to tweet.
(08:46):
This is a lesson I need tolearn sometimes myself, okay, because
I'm guilty of seeing some stuff andthen tweeting some dumb stuff about it and
then looking back and go, youknow, and I probably should have tweeted
that dumb stuff that was probably unnecessaryon my partner. I might I might
have gone off the rails. SoI'm not innocent of these charges. Well
in this case, I am.In this case, I am because as
(09:07):
dumb as I am, and believeme, I'm pretty dumb. I have
never tried to both sides ten yearolds or god a McDonald's until the middle
of the night. I'm lost.I'm so mad. I'm losing my voice
over this. Anyway, So uh, tweet less, don't tweet. Nobody
should ever tweet, especially now,but just just don't tweet. This is
(09:30):
advice I will not listen to,uh, coming from my own self.
But anyway, coming on next,you're gonna talk to Dean Sphiliotas not about
child labor laws but about us.Some CBS polling about Republican voters. That's
the next This is overtime. Keepit right here, it's not the right
time. Joining me out. Overtime is a good funny. King Philiotis
(09:54):
he is the Civics scholar at SouthernNew Hampshire University. His time is longer
than that, but I can't rememberall of it. It's not all that
right, But Dean, thanks forbeing a part of the show. Yeah,
it's my pleasure. Justin happened tobe with you. And so Dean
is on the Hampshire today a lotsometimes as a guest house used to uh
fill in on NHPR as well,and not to mention you've you've taught at
Dartmouth, Southern New Hampshire. Ifeel and say, Dans, I'm almost
(10:20):
My resume is consist of broadcasting fromthose places, not teaching anybody anything,
to be sure. But yeah,I just I just need to hit for
the cycle. Yeah there, that'sthe grand Slam right. Yeah. So
it's same to say you've seen alot when it comes to uh, not
only the Hampshire politics, but youknow nationwide you've been You've been in the
(10:41):
game for a minute, right aboutthirty years. Yeah, I've only spent
forty five years being justin MCCASAC,so it's still learning things about that.
But uh, the reason I askedyou to come on is we saw some
CBS polling this week. Uh itwas the whole poll was interesting, but
two things stood out for me.One of them was one of the issues
was seventy five percent of people thatare going to vote for Donald Trump or
(11:03):
plan to in the New Hampshire primary. He said they're going to do so
because he won the twenty twenty election, which you know, we know didn't
happen. And the other portion ofthat that I thought was interesting was eighty
seven percent of publican voters want someonethat stands up to quote unquote woke values
or woke politicians. There wasn't awhole lot of we like this politician because
(11:26):
of what they stand for. It'swhat they stand again. So I guess
my first question is, you know, American politics, it is kind of
based on compromise and seeing the otherperson's point of view a little bit.
How do you how do you compromisewith people who don't kind of trade in
reality at this point, especially whenit comes to Donald Trump. Yeah,
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it's interesting, you know, thinkingabout looking at the at the poem you
sent me and thinking about, youknow, the history of presidential politics over
the last you know, forty orfifty years, and there are some real
similarities and there are some real differences. You know. The similarity for me
is seeing elements of the Culture War. You know, we talk about the
(12:09):
culture War. The current incarnation ofthe Cultural War is talking about politics.
But you know, as long asI can remember, going back to your
Reaganism and then Georgia Herbert Walker Bushrunning against Bill Clinton on family values,
there's always been these deep cultural dividesin our country that play out at the
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presidential level, and it can bepretty nasty and it can be very polarizing.
Most of my memories of studying presidentialpolitics over the last fifty years are
are polarizing, for the most part, polarizing presidential elections. So the aspect
of of a of a new versionof the Culture War, of people sorting
themselves into different different groups. Youhear a lot about political tribalism. Uh.
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You know, at some level,presidential politics is always about identity.
Who you are, who are yourpeople? Who? Versus who are who
are the other people? And kindof defining the other as as someplace you
don't want to go in terms ofchoosing a president. So a lot of
the data that I see in thatpolling, it's just kind of a twenty
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twenties version of a long standing culturewar between conservatives and liberals. Now we
say progressives, but but that dividehas always been there, and it's manifested
itself in religion and debates over abortion. I remember back in the eighties and
nineties that banning certain songs lyrics,there was a big the organization that dealt
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with trying to ban certain types oflyrics as obscene. Yeah, Tipperagore was
actually you don't have a Democrat,but but that was a very popular kind
of cultural cultural issue. So thosehave always been around. The big difference
for me is the way in whichtechnology uh and also the amount of money
that is poured into it. Youknow, you look at the Supreme Court
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and decisions on campaign finance reform havetrended conservative for the last couple of decades,
And every time the Supreme Court getsan issue dealing with campaign finance,
they equate money with free speech.So there's a lot more money saturating our
politics. But my original point wason technology. Technology has really allowed us
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to kind of self sort into ouraffinity groups in ways that it never has
before. When I was when Iwas growing up in the sixties and seventies,
everybody in my community had the samehalf dozen TV channels. We had
three networks, We had public televisionthat's four, and then I think we
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had two local syndicated channels that showedyou know, Abbot and Costello and the
Little Rascals and you know, Popeyeafter school. So everybody in we had
newspapers and radio, but everybody wasessentially on the same playing field, looked
at the same for the most part, the same political data. There were
a couple of polling organizations, mainlyGallop and Roper were the two big two.
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So so even though there was thiskind of cultural polarization identity politics that
we're seeing now, at least everybodywas kind of looking at the same information.
Technology has now allowed us to kindof self sort ourselves into these uh
self contained bubbles, information zones inwhich we can essentially filter out anything that
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challenges our preconceived ideas or notions orour preferences. Um. And and that
is why increasingly, rather than youknow, in the old days, you
would hear in the end, youknow, come together. Uh you know,
uh Bush, George W. Bushis going to be a knight or
not a divider. And Barack Obamasaid he would bring people together, so,
you know, for a line,and even Joe Biden made a made
(15:56):
a a play for by partisanship,even though he's been kind of ridiculed for
that in some in some corners ofthe Democratic Party. Increasingly, what I
see on social media and out inthe political world is each side saying we
just need to vote the other sideout of power, that we can no
longer come to any sort of compromise. Uh, and so we just each
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side just vote and vote the otherside out. We're talking with Silotis of
Southern Hampshire University just to heart backto what you were referencing with. You
know, in the eighties and nineties, the cultural war has always been there.
It does seem like it's on steroidsat this point. But what when
I first, I think part ofthat is because we've come so far in
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such a short period of time whenit comes to equality and inclusion and things
like that. But it does itdoes remind me of the you know,
the nineties, and uh, youknow when I when I was in high
school and uh, coming up,you know, everything everything was labeled by
conservatives they didn't like as politically correct. So it seemed to just be running
back the same playbook but slapping thelabel of woke on it. Only now
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there's there's there's seems to be morelaws, you know, depending on what's
that you're in, more laws beingmade to kind of outlaw you know,
inclusivity. It's it's very strange,you know, in the place like Oregon
and Washington, they're going one way, you know, even Minnesota, in
uh, in Michigan and in Florida, you know, Missouri, it's going
quite the opposite. So it's it'sit's literally depending on where you live in
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the country right now, right well, what you're seeing is an extension of
the self sorting that I was talkingabout a moment ago. So technology allows
us to to find like minded individuals, to sort ourselves into these groups,
and to organize more efficiently to carryout political goals. And so what you're
seeing, you know, we're literallypeople are Now there's a lot of sociology
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and demographic work showing that people areliterally self sorting us geographically based on uh,
these kinds of ideological considerations, whichis why the country is increasingly polarized.
And so in in red states wherethe legislatures are controlled by conservatives,
they are putting in place the kindsof rules societal vision and rules that they
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want. And in blue states,but you have the opposite occurring. So
it literally is a kind of geographicalmanifestation of the sorting that first took place,
took place through technology, through socialmedia. It's just it just makes
that kind of thing a lot easier. And the reason why I think it
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feels like it's on serage. Imean, my recollection was of the some
of the stuff in the in theeighties and nineties was really, really quite
vicious. It's just that we nowall have access equal access to that public
square. So everything's magnified because it'snot just the kind of elected elites or
a couple of high profiled individuals activists. It's everybody, you know, everybody.
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I can say what I want,you can say what you want.
And so just the volume, thesaturation of these kinds of conflicting opinions and
ideas, it just it just feelslike it's it's jacked up. Um,
but it's just because of the volumeof it and the volume and then like
it just never it's continuous, itnever ends. It's around the clock.
(19:12):
Yeah, and it's uh, it'sprobably beneficial for for media companies quite frankly,
because there's never something to not beoutraged about. But yeah, to
your point, it used to belike a good example is Rond de Santists
kind of signing an abortion ban inFlorida in the middle of the night,
like all of us found out aboutit instantly, instantaneously. Used to be
the Miami Herald. We have toreport upon it, and then maybe the
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year times of pick it up andthen maybe I'd see it the Fosters Daily
Democrat, like a week after ithappened. Now I can see the picture
of it, you know, tenminutes after it occurs. So it's it's
yeah, well that's the that's thebig change. You know. We I've
talked to many journalists over the years, and a couple of older journalists,
you know, I remember remember moderatinga panel on political coverage and several you
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know a while back. Uh,and you know the journalists are saying,
you know, in the in theseventies and eighties, if we had a
story, we had a couple ofdays to kind of talk to people,
to check our sources, to kindof let the let the let the ideas
gel a little bit. Uh,And then you know, we got into
kind of the twenty four hour newscycle with cable news, where you basically
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had from evening broadcast until the nextevening broadcast to have stuff gel. Now
we're in what I call the instantaneousnews cycle, where you're literally processing stuff
in real time, and a lotof times people get it wrong, you
know, and then you have toRather than kind of getting the story right
and then putting it out there,we're seeing stories develop in real time exactly.
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I wanted to ask one more thingabout the self sorting piece before I
ask you about kind of where wheremiddle of the road, for lack of
a better term, Republican Republicans aregoing to go. But it was interesting.
Dwayne Wade of used to play forthe Miami Heat. Of course,
you know, mentioned this past weekthat Dwayne Wayne most people might not know,
Dwayne Waite has a trans daughter,and he has said he's going to
(21:04):
move out of Florida because he justdoes not feel welcome there, and I
and I think that's the purpose ofa lot of those laws. But I
think what I'm guilty of this,and I'm sure other people are as well.
When we think about red states bluestates, you don't think about like
the folks in a red state thatare kind of don't have the don't have
the means to get out of Dodgeshow to speak, if they wanted to.
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They're kind of like living in areality that is collapsing around them.
Where if you're a transperson in Florida, you don't have the money to move
to somewhere that you feel safer.It's kind of like, what am I
gonna do? So what what doyou think the reaction is going to be
over the next ten years or sowhen these pockets of places in the country
are are are passing these laws andand you know it goes state by state,
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but there's a population there that youknow doesn't feel safe because of these
things. Yeah, you know,that's a that's a good question. I
think at some point demographic changes thatif you look at longer term demographic changes
in the country were becoming increasingly multiculturaland diverse. That's just the nature of
population growth in the country. Andyou think of a place like Texas,
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which has a reputation of being reallyconservative in terms of its selected leaders and
its laws. Up there are verylarge and Latino population, people of color,
other populations in urban cores like Houstonand Dallas and elsewhere, and their
political power is increasing. The questionis will it as it increases to what
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extent are are the powers that beable to hardwire in favorable laws and circumstances.
I mean, that's one of thethere's a lot of political science people
who study bureaucracy often talk about theways in which current bureaucracies hardwire in laws,
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rules, and operating procedures that benefittheir constituencies because they know at some
point they may be out of power. So you know, I see in
state after state, you look atsome of these states that are actually pretty
diverse in terms of opinion. Thisis shippy is a good example, yeah,
right right, But the folks whoare making law, I mean,
we're seeing it in It was inTennessee with the shooting with the legislature.
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You know, Nashville is a veryprogressive place, um, but other parts,
you know, conservatives, particularly inthe rural parts of the state have
been able to control the legislature inGerrymander districts, and so the question is,
at some point can those who youdescribe as kind of being on the
outside, are they become of sufficientpolitical power to change that. I think
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you see that happening in places likeGeorgia, which is which feels politically a
little bit different than it did eveneven ten years ago, and other other
places as well. Up in theMidwest, some states have kind of gone
back and forth, place like Colorado, Arizona. So you do have these
changes, but it's a real battleand there's just a lot, a lot
(24:03):
at stake. I mean, that'swhy you see these frantic attempts by each
party to put as many judges intolifetime appointments as possible, because that's an
example of a gift that keeps ongiving. If you can get people in,
even though the other party may controlthe confirmation process. In a few
years, you fill a couple hundredappointments, you've done a lot for somebody
(24:26):
who's maybe in their forties or fifties. They're going to be in that seat
for twenty or thirty years or longZack exactly. Yeah, we're talking about.
Dean Spiliotis in Southern Hampshire University startedthe conversation talking about these polls that
kind of where folks don't really havea basis in reality, or so it
seems, you know, voting forknowledge Trump because he actually won the twenty
(24:47):
twenty election in their opinion. Wherewhere does is there a historical precedent for
this politically, where a party soradically shifts from like what its core principles
were to occult of personality essentially,and where do for lack of the better
term, middle of the road Republicanslike you, you're Chris the New News
or even at this point you're MittRomney's what does the is there a political
(25:08):
future for folks like that? Dothey have to form their own party?
Do they just try to do theytry to joy the Democratic Party to shift
that party to the right? Well, what do you see happening? Yeah,
I mean there are there's there arethere's a field in political science and
in political history called realignment theory wherethey look at big political realignments in the
(25:29):
country. So, you know,the New Deal Coalition which kind of kind
of blurred into the Great Society withLynda Johnson. And so you have this
period from you know, nineteen thirtytwo until Ronald Reagan is elected in nineteen
eighty where there's a very specific setof preferred policy priorities, and then that
changes very radically in nineteen eighty.And there are other periods in history where
(25:52):
you have these big kind of generationalchanges, And I think that's what gives
people like a like a christ andnew type of politician, gives those kinds
of folks hope that things can comeback around or there will be some sort
of change at some point. Youknow, I remember listening to other analysts
talk about the Republican Party and thatthe Republican Party now it's just not what
(26:15):
it was even even back in twothousand and twelve or two thousand and eight
and earlier, and that it willtake several presidential election cycles to get back
out of that. If it's gonnaif it's gonna move on to something else.
You know, we've had twenty sixteen, we've had twenty twenty, twenty
twenty four, twenty twenty eight.It may not be until the twenty thirties
(26:36):
that things change in some sort offundament fundamental way. And we can look
back and say, oh, thatperiod with Trump and Magan and all that
that was, that was transitory,But it was a ten or twelve year
or chunk of time. So Ithink there's always a possibility. I think
the Republican Party will transition into somethingelse eventually. Um, it's just a
(26:59):
question of how how quickly that canhappen, it is there first part of
that was is there a historical presidentfor a party kind of going so all
in on one figure. I know, you know, to a certain extent
in the early eighties, the Republicansare all in on Reagan. But it
was I think it was a littleit wasn't quite the extent. Nobody was
wearing Reagan gear edge of tow asfar as I can remember when I was
a kid back of the day.Have we seen anything like this in American
(27:22):
politics or perhaps, I mean,it's hard to know. I mean,
I think certainly around the world we'vehad a number, you know, a
number of historical movements in particular associatedwith you know, where there were World
wars or World War Two, whereyou do have these have these kinds of
cults of personality. Um, thoseare usually dictators, though it wasn't an
elected right, well, yeah,right, I mean there or or elected
(27:45):
officials who eventually kind of consolidate powerand transition to becoming authoritarians. You know.
In the US, in modern presidentialhistory, you know, I don't
think we've seen anything precisely like whatwe're seeing now. I mean the you
know there FDR was in in thepresidency for four terms two thirty two to
(28:07):
forty five. So died in hisfourth term. Yeah, yeah, he
died in his fourth term. Andso but that's doesn't necessarily mean that there
was a cult of personality around him. Um. But we have had these
times where we've had very you know, sort of strong leaders Reagan certainly.
Uh, it was a big changefor conservatives. Um. So you know,
there are a number there are anumber, you know, I was
(28:30):
just reading about Victor Orbon and Hungarybeing urn Agan and Turkey. Uh.
You know, there have been thissort of concern about these Western democracies kind
of sliding towards authoritarianism and and anduh and a cult of personality. Um,
but most of our intention has beenon these these europe countries in Europe,
(28:52):
uh, not so much in theUS. Right until Yeah, it's
kind of new for us. AndI'm a big I'm a big dorc when
it comes to history, but itis kind of weird living through historical times.
What do you can recognize them whileit's happening? Though, Uh,
well, it's remarkable. I meanwell, and you know, well,
I'm sure we'll transition onto some newphase at some point, but this has
(29:14):
been this kind of current moment,particularly in Republican politics. Uh. You
know the Sarah Palin back in twothousand and eight, right, people,
I remember thinking, wow, thisis she's this, she sounds, and
we're sort of watching the way peoplereacted to her and the kinds of things
that people liked about her. Iremember thinking, And also, I mean
(29:38):
I was an only one with allthis, but like this feels a little
different, right, And that reallywas kind of a harbinger of things to
come. And that was you know, that's fifteen years ago. Yeah,
she was kind of trump one pointor exactly that. That's sort of like,
Okay, we're used to we understandpolitical warfare is nasty and dirty and
polarizing, but this is a littlethis is a little different. You can
(30:00):
do that, but you don't usuallydo that. But she she went there
and it just felt it felt different, and the sort of relish with wish
with which her partisans responded to herwas something that we really hadn't seen before.
Well, Dean, thanks for doingthis and uh yeah, hopefully we
(30:21):
can look back at this time inhistory at some point and chuckle hopefully,
but I guess we'll say so.Thanks for being on the show. Hey,
my pleasure, justin happy to doit. You want to be here
on overtime is Well, it's beenabout two months, I think maybe a
month and a half since I've donea broadcast with Bob Lippan, so I
was starting to I was starting togo through withdrawals. Bob Lipman joins me
(30:41):
as my horse racing expert. Todayis this Derby weekend? Bob? How
are you doing? I'm great.I wish I could say that I'm the
expert. I may appreciate the sportof horse racing more than all of your
other fans, but whether I'm anexpert or not, you'll know at seven
o'clock tonight. I think you're anexpert because here's what happens every year for
(31:03):
people that don't know. Man.The only person that would know this is
my wife, Renee. But everyyear I asked Bob, oh, who
do you like in the derby?And then Bob gives me one are usually
two with the most horses that helikes, And then I'm like, what
does Bob know? I'm gonna betthis one I like with a funny name,
And then what do you know?One of the horses Bob tells me
wins the derby, And I'm anidiot, So I think this is gonna
be the year I finally start listeningto you, Bob, And of course
(31:26):
that means it might be the yearyou don't get it right right. Well,
with twenty horses, you know,you can bet more than one of
them and still come away with aprophet at least most years, and this
year probably is another one like thatlittle that's uh that works when you and
I are talking, when I tellRenee I have bets on seventeen out of
twenty horses. Then then things startto get tense around the Maccassic household.
(31:48):
But let's take a look and whowe got here? So who are you
looking at? We're taking this onThursday. So if somebody turns an ankle
or whatever and has to make anunfortunate trip to the doc. It's you
know, it's out of our control. But who do you like as of
Thursday? Here, Bob, Iwill tell you the horse to beat first
(32:08):
of all, the morning line favorite, and the horse will be the favorite
when they go in the gate isnumber fifteen fourte. He's off five consecutive
wins. He won the Breeders' CupJuvenile, the top race for two year
olds, last year. He's offa win in the Florida Derby this year.
Always one of the great preps,has a top trainer and Todd Pletcher,
(32:30):
top rider and rad Ortiz, andit will probably get you seven bucks
for a two dollar bit. Okay, okay if he wins. But so
much can happen in a race likethis, and I think that there are
a couple that are close enough.I'll give you. I'm gonna give you
two once again. One I thinkwill be at a little bit higher price.
(32:52):
One will be at a little bitlower price. And in fact number
five, Tapic Trice is going tobe the second choice in the race.
He's my pick to win the Derbythis year. But great race in Kentucky
a couple of weeks ago lightly raced. He's only raised five times, he's
won the last four of them.Tap It Trice is trained by the same
(33:16):
trainer of Forte Todd Pletcher, soit's kind of like his one and one
A in the barn, and I'mgoing with number five. The other horse,
who I think as a huge shot. I think though may just fade
a little bit at the end,is number two Verifying, listed at fifteen
(33:36):
to one in the morning line,and he lost by a neck to tap
It Trice in the Bluegrass Stakes acouple of weeks ago, has a couple
of wins on his schedule, trainedby a guy who has won two four
in the race. Brad Cox hasfour horses starting in the Kentucky Derby.
(33:59):
So I'm giving you have number fiveTappa Trice to win. Number two Verifying
would be a long shot pick.And I'm using the fifteen in there as
well. And the other horse I'mleaving in in my in my exacta and
trifecta is the three two fills,two fills, all right, with an
apostrophees, that's right. So immediatelyI look at Tappa Trice, who the
(34:24):
odds of the Kentucky Derby, websiteright now or five to one, And
what jumps out to me is that, yes, top Pletcher, great trainer.
He's as great as the Nantucket missright. Which, there's something about
gray horses which makes my wallets startjumping and say, oh, yeah,
you gotta bet this horse. It'sgray. What is it about gray horses
that people love? Bob? Isthat a thin or am I just making
(34:45):
that up? Yeah? Well,I think it is a thing because it
is pretty unusual. Right, Sowhen you get one and the horse happens
to be really good, I thinkthat it's easy to spot where they are
in the race. It's not theonly gray in the race. By the
way, there are at least twoother ones. Because I was watching some
of the workouts. The one HitShow is a gray horse. The seven
(35:07):
Reincarnate is a gray horse. Theeighteen Rocket Cam is a gray horse.
I have to tell you sometimes Ifeel like a dort because I'm watched like
Formula one practice. But then youjust said you were watching the workouts for
the Kentucky Dirtes And I will neverfeel like a dork again after hearing that.
Well, I mean I will,but not for that. So they
don't know what I'm looking for,though, I mean, that's what are
(35:29):
you watching for, That's the bottomline, because I just want to I
just want to see them in ain action. But I mean, I
can watch a horse run down thestretch and I can't tell you, you
know anything about how that's gonna helpme handicap a race that's on Saturday.
All I know is twenty horses inthe race. Some of them are gonna
get bumped around, They're gonna haveexcuses. Who's gonna get the clean trip?
(35:52):
I have no idea. Indeed,yeah, it said some one of
the most fun two minutes sports.Um, you've been to a number of
these races, right, You've beento a number of Kentucky Derbies or am
I imagining that? I have beento ten and I didn't think it was
that many. What's that experience likelike being at that all ten of them
(36:15):
in the infield? Really? Imean, I know this is an adult
show, but it is a lotof young people having an awful lot of
fun. And if they are normallyin that infield for eight am until late
(36:35):
pm, there's a lot of drinkinggoing on, a lot of fun You're
seeing on TV. The people whoare paying the big bucks on the horses.
They're on the other side of thehats. Yeah, yeah, fancy
hats. And everybody's drinking mint julips, which I happen to find as one
(36:57):
of the not I'll be nice.It's all are awful about them. You
don't you don't you know what thekey is, Bob. After the third
one, they start tasting a lotbetter. I said, But for those
of you buy them because they camein souvenir glasses, right these days,
I don't think they allow you tohave glass in the infield, but yeah,
(37:20):
that would seem to be problematic.But for those who don't know Bob,
Bob's not a big party guy,so I'm a little surprised during the
infield for all ten of them.Is that just because it's the more affordable
place to set? Yes, yes, I was gonna say that, because
it's not a great place to betbecause there are so many people. You
can't you couldn't get near the windows. This was way before you could,
you know, open up your phoneand place him that that way, which
(37:44):
you can do now, thank goodness, we can do that now. So
to recap Bob likes uh, it'sthe fifteen fourte you like that one,
you're pick, but if he getsbeat, I'm hoping it's by one of
my horses. A tap at numberfive, that's your big one. You
kind of like as a lawn shotthe two verifying any other lawn shots might
(38:08):
be worth putting a buck or twobucks on. Yeah, I guess three
two fills twelve to one off ofa off of a good race there.
I can't tell whether or not he'sgoing to move forward to this race or
not. There's a there's a lotof buzz this year justin about Japanese bred
(38:28):
horses. Yes, to this pointthey've never been successful, but they're getting
better and better. And there's ahorse number seventeen, Derma sorta Gake.
I was just looking at that one. One a race in Dubai and now
is shipping over here to the Kentuckyhere will be to try to win this
(38:50):
race. And they say that theJapanese horses are are closing the gap.
I'm leaving this one off because untilI actually see one of them at least
hit the board, which they neverhave, I'll leave them as outsiders.
So kind of interesting watch that there'sanother horse from Japan and the race as
(39:12):
well, that's twenty continue are he'llbe a real long shot in that race.
Lost to the seventeen by ten lengthsof Dubai. Not ideal losing my
ten lengths. But yeah, Idon't know how a horse comes over from
Japan all the way to Kentucky andhas the energy to run. You and
I fly to football games in Michiganand I'm like, I need like six
hours to recover. So yeah,they've been around for a couple of weeks.
(39:34):
Yeah, okay, so they aregetting acclimated. They've been out on
the Churchill Down's course. All right, Well, there are your picks,
and if they don't come in,don't play. Bobby's usually right, but
we'll give you some leeway if youknow, if your picks don't don't hit
the trifecta. But best to luckto you with that, Bob. And
I think this is the year I'mfinally going to listen to your advice.
So now you have it on tape. If I don't listen, you can
(39:57):
come back and and tell me I'mI'm silly for not listening to you,
which you know that that's usually whathappens. Do you have your pick and
Renee's picks, so that that wayI know who to bet. Renee has
to look at the jockeys. Reneeis a big like, let me tell
me who's on the horse, andthen she makes your decision. So I
can tell you she's looking at uh, just by the name and then the
(40:20):
jockeys. One of her guys,it's what is it, practical move?
I believe she likes Ramone Vasquez,who's writing practical moves. So well,
that ends up being the pick.So there you go. Well, Bob,
I'll let you get ready for theFisher Cats game you're about to broadcast
on these fine stations, and uhlook forward to the un age football season
coming up in three three to ahalf bunths or so. Though we'll go
(40:42):
get them see you soon. Welcomeback to Overtime and we're running out a
show that's just about gonna do it. For this week's episode of Overtime,
I want to thank Deeps. Billiotisfrom Southern Hampshire University. Dean is awesome.
Listening to Dean on the morning showwhen he comes on on Mondays and
(41:05):
Thursdays and when he guests hosts aswell. Awesome, my buddy Bob Littman
for given some Derby picks. Bythe time, hopefully by the time you
hear this, the Derby hasn't goneoff. Hopefully listening on the radio.
But if you didn't, of courseyou catch the podcast right after the show,
like subscribe. I'll leave a fivestar rating on whatever podcast happy listen
to. The bosses like to meto tell you to listen on the iHeart
(41:27):
radio app. But whatever, whereveryou get podcasts, you just search for
overtime with Justin mcconsagin bought up beingthe podcast will pop up. Thanks to
Drew Clyde for making such a dumbtweet. I got ten minutes out of
making fun of it because that wasvery helpful. There was other stuff I
wanted to get you too, butthe show is only an hour, and
then when all the commercials are factoredin, it's only forty minutes. So
we'll save some dumb stuff for nextweek. So thanks for listening, thanks
(41:50):
for checking out the podcast, thanksfor just being how about that? And
I remember, hippies are bad peoplepretending to be good. Pumps are good
people pretending to be ad. We'llsee you next week. M
Welcome to Overtime. I'm you're devastatinglyhandsome and also quite humble. Host Justin
mcizac, the only working class personin the media as far as I can
tell, this week on Overtime andtalk to Edie Scilionis, who appears on
the Hampshire Day a bunch sometimes itbills in as a guest host. There
was some pulling from CBS which caughtmy eye, and some of that said,
(00:28):
the folks that are gonna vote forDonald Trump in twenty twenty four are
voting for him because he actually weren'tin twenty twenty. So we talked about
that and kind of the historical havethere in American politics? Have there been?
Is there a historical comparable to whatwe're seeing right now within the American
Republican Party where it's really at thispoint it's a cult personality and there's still
(00:50):
some people being frozen out. Sowe talked about that. Also, there
was some other pulling that said eightyseven percent of Republican voters want someone that
fights woke values over those are Iknow what being woke used to be.
I know what it's I gotta havea good sense of what it's been co
opted to be basically means are youfor equality? Oh, we don't like
(01:11):
that, so that's uh. Wetalk about that and a whole bunch of
other stuff as well. It's ait's a good conversation with Dean. Also
check it with Bob Blitman. It'sDerby Weekend, Uh, Bob Lilittman.
I knew I was gonna get alongwell with Bob Blitman. He and I
do the UNH football games together anda whole bunch of other sports type things.
I knew I was gonna get alongwell with Bob after I got the
UNH gig. I kind of knewBob a little bit, but we hadn't
(01:34):
really worked together. And when Ifound out he liked the ponies, I
was like, Okay, this isa guy I can I can form a
relationship with. If he's into that, we're gonna get along just fine.
And I have proven to be right. Bob always gives me a couple of
horses to look out for and towager on. And then I I say,
Bob's Bob's a smart guy, andhe's usually right about this, and
that's what I'm gonna do this year. And then I don't and then I
(01:56):
lose. So hopefully this will bethe year Bob's advice and do exactly what
he says. But we'll see.We'll see, and he gives you his
picks on a long shot pick aswell. So many dumb things happening this
week to talk about, but thedumbest that stood out to me. And
usually when it comes to dumb things, I'm a big fan of dumb stuff,
(02:20):
especially in the world of sports.The dumber the better. When it
comes to actual real life, I'dlike things to be I know they won't
ever not be dumb, but I'dlike them to be like twenty percent last
dumb. I think I could livewith that. The dumbest thing I saw
though, and I'll read the headlinedirectly from the NBC News website, ten
year olds found among hundreds of children, hundreds of children working at McDonald's restaurants.
(02:46):
Apparently in the specific one that's gottenall the headlines is the two ten
year olds that were working unpaid anduntil as late as two am and one
McDonald's restaurant in Louisville, Kentucky.Bower Food LLC apparently runs most of these
McDonalds. I'll read directly from thestory just for a little bit. I
won't read the entire story because that'sboring. You wouldn't want to hear that.
(03:08):
But anyway, more than three hundredchildren, including two ten year olds,
were found working at McDonald's restaurants acrossKentucky and other states in violation of
federal labor laws. Scording to thelater Labor Department. In one case,
investigators found two ten year olds wereworking unpaid. I don't know why the
(03:29):
unpaid thing sticks out to be atthis story, because it's even if they
were even if they were making abag, even they were making bank,
it's still horrible anyway, working unpaiduntil as late as two am and one
McDonald's and Louisville, operated by bourFood, which is based in Louisville.
Two children. This is great,and I want to know if they if
(03:51):
they had like a manager there orif they were just like if one was
in charge of the other. Butthe two children prepared and distributed food orders
clear the store, worked at thedrive through a window and operating a register.
Investigators found one of them was alsoallowed to operate a deep friar,
a task prohibited for workers under theage of sixteen. I have to say,
(04:15):
now I haven't been to a McDonald'sand since since I was eighteen when
I started being a vegetarian. Thereain't no vegetarian options at McDonald's. And
I guess the apple pie might be, but even the French fries there have
like a little bit of beef fatin them, which is weird. But
that's not the point. The pointis this, if you go through a
drive through a McDonald's and you seea ten year old working a register,
(04:38):
we're gonna work in the window.I'm not one for snitching, but you
kind of have to drop a dimeat that point, right, because now
it's a human rights violation. MostI will continue the story. Most of
the restaurants, forty five of thesixty or sixty two restaurants where kids were
working, forty five of them werein Kentucky. This kind of like seems
on brand for Kentucky. At leastthe two ten year olds were among at
(05:00):
least three hundred and five children foundto have been employed a violation of federal
labor laws. Three hundred and fivekids. So at that point, it's
not a mistake, it's a policy, right, Like yeah, let's hire
these kids, and let's and alsolet's not pay them. So on the
one hand, this is kind oflike a natural consequence of unrestrained capitalism,
right at some point, you know, because this happened in the early twentieth
(05:25):
century. Then you know, kidsare working in mills, especially around here,
and then they were like, oh, you know, maybe it's not
great for kids to be losing fingersand machines. Maybe they should actually be
like getting an education and not youknow, being tiny little workers getting named.
So he said, all right,enough for that. Now it's going
the other way. There's a lawin Arkansas that says kids teenagers like fourteen
(05:49):
fifteen work fifteen hour days that theTyson Food processing plant. By the way,
the guy that owns Tyson just happensto be a big donor to Sarah
Huckabe Sanders, the governor of Arkansas. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
So I think there was some lossin Missouri too, all the states you'd
imagine where they're like, what havewe got. These kids weren't gonna stand
we can play him like Nicks nothing. And then the CEO could have a
(06:12):
boat. Inside his boat, thingsare starting to go the like with a
lot of things. Things are startingto go the wrong way with a lot
of that. That's not the thingthat completely tracked down my attention on all
this, though, which I knowis hard to believe. The thing that
got my attention the most was areaction from Drew Klein, who used to
(06:32):
work at the Union Leader. Ibelieve right now he's the president of the
Josiah Bartlett Center also hosts a radioshow at a competing radio station. And
I want to I want to beclear, if Drew Klein worked with me,
I would say, I'm not goingafter this tweet because he works at
another radio station. If he workedhere, I would be I'd probably go
after him even harder. But thetweeting question is, and he's quite he's
(06:56):
co tweeting the news and observer whokind of did a story about this whole
thing. Here. I will readDrews tweet. It says, I agree
that ten year olds shouldn't be workingat McDonald's. Period. Good so far,
so far, I'm with you,And then he says, but and
that's where you got it, andthat's where you lost the plot, that's
(07:19):
where you went off the rails.Because now after the butt that means there's
a justification or at least of bothsidesing, well, yes, we're there,
ten year olds working on paid untiltwo am. Yes, and that's
bad, but maybe it kind ofisn't bad. I'll I'll read the rest
(07:41):
of Drews tweet. And by theway, you don't have to tweet about
this. You could have just leftit as I agree that ten year olds
should be working at McDonald's. That'ssomething everyone should agree to everybody. That
should be like a baseline. Youshouldn't have to say it. You shouldn't
need to tweet that part. Youcould just be like, oh yeah.
You could just think to yourself,I agree this, or go on your
(08:01):
radio show and say, yeah,I agree. That's an easy layup.
Make your layups, right, that'swhat they say in basketball. This one's
a layup blue the layup. I'msorry, I'll continue. I agree that
ten year olds shouldn't be working onMcDonald's, but just for context. What
context do you need? It's aten year old working at McDonald's till two
(08:26):
am for no money, excuse me, but just for context. Scouts this
age know how to set up tenseby themselves, use a pocket knife and
cook robbeat over a fire they startedby themselves. It's okay not to tweet.
(08:46):
This is a lesson I need tolearn sometimes myself, okay, because
I'm guilty of seeing some stuff andthen tweeting some dumb stuff about it and
then looking back and go, youknow, and I probably should have tweeted
that dumb stuff that was probably unnecessaryon my partner. I might I might
have gone off the rails. SoI'm not innocent of these charges. Well
in this case, I am.In this case, I am because as
(09:07):
dumb as I am, and believeme, I'm pretty dumb. I have
never tried to both sides ten yearolds or god a McDonald's until the middle
of the night. I'm lost.I'm so mad. I'm losing my voice
over this. Anyway, So uh, tweet less, don't tweet. Nobody
should ever tweet, especially now,but just just don't tweet. This is
(09:30):
advice I will not listen to,uh, coming from my own self.
But anyway, coming on next,you're gonna talk to Dean Sphiliotas not about
child labor laws but about us.Some CBS polling about Republican voters. That's
the next This is overtime. Keepit right here, it's not the right
time. Joining me out. Overtime is a good funny. King Philiotis
(09:54):
he is the Civics scholar at SouthernNew Hampshire University. His time is longer
than that, but I can't rememberall of it. It's not all that
right, But Dean, thanks forbeing a part of the show. Yeah,
it's my pleasure. Justin happened tobe with you. And so Dean
is on the Hampshire today a lotsometimes as a guest house used to uh
fill in on NHPR as well,and not to mention you've you've taught at
Dartmouth, Southern New Hampshire. Ifeel and say, Dans, I'm almost
(10:20):
My resume is consist of broadcasting fromthose places, not teaching anybody anything,
to be sure. But yeah,I just I just need to hit for
the cycle. Yeah there, that'sthe grand Slam right. Yeah. So
it's same to say you've seen alot when it comes to uh, not
only the Hampshire politics, but youknow nationwide you've been You've been in the
(10:41):
game for a minute, right aboutthirty years. Yeah, I've only spent
forty five years being justin MCCASAC,so it's still learning things about that.
But uh, the reason I askedyou to come on is we saw some
CBS polling this week. Uh itwas the whole poll was interesting, but
two things stood out for me.One of them was one of the issues
was seventy five percent of people thatare going to vote for Donald Trump or
(11:03):
plan to in the New Hampshire primary. He said they're going to do so
because he won the twenty twenty election, which you know, we know didn't
happen. And the other portion ofthat that I thought was interesting was eighty
seven percent of publican voters want someonethat stands up to quote unquote woke values
or woke politicians. There wasn't awhole lot of we like this politician because
(11:26):
of what they stand for. It'swhat they stand again. So I guess
my first question is, you know, American politics, it is kind of
based on compromise and seeing the otherperson's point of view a little bit.
How do you how do you compromisewith people who don't kind of trade in
reality at this point, especially whenit comes to Donald Trump. Yeah,
(11:48):
it's interesting, you know, thinkingabout looking at the at the poem you
sent me and thinking about, youknow, the history of presidential politics over
the last you know, forty orfifty years, and there are some real
similarities and there are some real differences. You know. The similarity for me
is seeing elements of the Culture War. You know, we talk about the
(12:09):
culture War. The current incarnation ofthe Cultural War is talking about politics.
But you know, as long asI can remember, going back to your
Reaganism and then Georgia Herbert Walker Bushrunning against Bill Clinton on family values,
there's always been these deep cultural dividesin our country that play out at the
(12:30):
presidential level, and it can bepretty nasty and it can be very polarizing.
Most of my memories of studying presidentialpolitics over the last fifty years are
are polarizing, for the most part, polarizing presidential elections. So the aspect
of of a of a new versionof the Culture War, of people sorting
themselves into different different groups. Youhear a lot about political tribalism. Uh.
(12:54):
You know, at some level,presidential politics is always about identity.
Who you are, who are yourpeople? Who? Versus who are who
are the other people? And kindof defining the other as as someplace you
don't want to go in terms ofchoosing a president. So a lot of
the data that I see in thatpolling, it's just kind of a twenty
(13:15):
twenties version of a long standing culturewar between conservatives and liberals. Now we
say progressives, but but that dividehas always been there, and it's manifested
itself in religion and debates over abortion. I remember back in the eighties and
nineties that banning certain songs lyrics,there was a big the organization that dealt
(13:39):
with trying to ban certain types oflyrics as obscene. Yeah, Tipperagore was
actually you don't have a Democrat,but but that was a very popular kind
of cultural cultural issue. So thosehave always been around. The big difference
for me is the way in whichtechnology uh and also the amount of money
that is poured into it. Youknow, you look at the Supreme Court
(14:01):
and decisions on campaign finance reform havetrended conservative for the last couple of decades,
And every time the Supreme Court getsan issue dealing with campaign finance,
they equate money with free speech.So there's a lot more money saturating our
politics. But my original point wason technology. Technology has really allowed us
(14:22):
to kind of self sort into ouraffinity groups in ways that it never has
before. When I was when Iwas growing up in the sixties and seventies,
everybody in my community had the samehalf dozen TV channels. We had
three networks, We had public televisionthat's four, and then I think we
(14:43):
had two local syndicated channels that showedyou know, Abbot and Costello and the
Little Rascals and you know, Popeyeafter school. So everybody in we had
newspapers and radio, but everybody wasessentially on the same playing field, looked
at the same for the most part, the same political data. There were
a couple of polling organizations, mainlyGallop and Roper were the two big two.
(15:09):
So so even though there was thiskind of cultural polarization identity politics that
we're seeing now, at least everybodywas kind of looking at the same information.
Technology has now allowed us to kindof self sort ourselves into these uh
self contained bubbles, information zones inwhich we can essentially filter out anything that
(15:33):
challenges our preconceived ideas or notions orour preferences. Um. And and that
is why increasingly, rather than youknow, in the old days, you
would hear in the end, youknow, come together. Uh you know,
uh Bush, George W. Bushis going to be a knight or
not a divider. And Barack Obamasaid he would bring people together, so,
you know, for a line,and even Joe Biden made a made
(15:56):
a a play for by partisanship,even though he's been kind of ridiculed for
that in some in some corners ofthe Democratic Party. Increasingly, what I
see on social media and out inthe political world is each side saying we
just need to vote the other sideout of power, that we can no
longer come to any sort of compromise. Uh, and so we just each
(16:17):
side just vote and vote the otherside out. We're talking with Silotis of
Southern Hampshire University just to heart backto what you were referencing with. You
know, in the eighties and nineties, the cultural war has always been there.
It does seem like it's on steroidsat this point. But what when
I first, I think part ofthat is because we've come so far in
(16:37):
such a short period of time whenit comes to equality and inclusion and things
like that. But it does itdoes remind me of the you know,
the nineties, and uh, youknow when I when I was in high
school and uh, coming up,you know, everything everything was labeled by
conservatives they didn't like as politically correct. So it seemed to just be running
back the same playbook but slapping thelabel of woke on it. Only now
(17:00):
there's there's there's seems to be morelaws, you know, depending on what's
that you're in, more laws beingmade to kind of outlaw you know,
inclusivity. It's it's very strange,you know, in the place like Oregon
and Washington, they're going one way, you know, even Minnesota, in
uh, in Michigan and in Florida, you know, Missouri, it's going
quite the opposite. So it's it'sit's literally depending on where you live in
(17:22):
the country right now, right well, what you're seeing is an extension of
the self sorting that I was talkingabout a moment ago. So technology allows
us to to find like minded individuals, to sort ourselves into these groups,
and to organize more efficiently to carryout political goals. And so what you're
seeing, you know, we're literallypeople are Now there's a lot of sociology
(17:44):
and demographic work showing that people areliterally self sorting us geographically based on uh,
these kinds of ideological considerations, whichis why the country is increasingly polarized.
And so in in red states wherethe legislatures are controlled by conservatives,
they are putting in place the kindsof rules societal vision and rules that they
(18:08):
want. And in blue states,but you have the opposite occurring. So
it literally is a kind of geographicalmanifestation of the sorting that first took place,
took place through technology, through socialmedia. It's just it just makes
that kind of thing a lot easier. And the reason why I think it
(18:29):
feels like it's on serage. Imean, my recollection was of the some
of the stuff in the in theeighties and nineties was really, really quite
vicious. It's just that we nowall have access equal access to that public
square. So everything's magnified because it'snot just the kind of elected elites or
a couple of high profiled individuals activists. It's everybody, you know, everybody.
(18:52):
I can say what I want,you can say what you want.
And so just the volume, thesaturation of these kinds of conflicting opinions and
ideas, it just it just feelslike it's it's jacked up. Um,
but it's just because of the volumeof it and the volume and then like
it just never it's continuous, itnever ends. It's around the clock.
(19:12):
Yeah, and it's uh, it'sprobably beneficial for for media companies quite frankly,
because there's never something to not beoutraged about. But yeah, to
your point, it used to belike a good example is Rond de Santists
kind of signing an abortion ban inFlorida in the middle of the night,
like all of us found out aboutit instantly, instantaneously. Used to be
the Miami Herald. We have toreport upon it, and then maybe the
(19:33):
year times of pick it up andthen maybe I'd see it the Fosters Daily
Democrat, like a week after ithappened. Now I can see the picture
of it, you know, tenminutes after it occurs. So it's it's
yeah, well that's the that's thebig change. You know. We I've
talked to many journalists over the years, and a couple of older journalists,
you know, I remember remember moderatinga panel on political coverage and several you
(19:56):
know a while back. Uh,and you know the journalists are saying,
you know, in the in theseventies and eighties, if we had a
story, we had a couple ofdays to kind of talk to people,
to check our sources, to kindof let the let the let the ideas
gel a little bit. Uh,And then you know, we got into
kind of the twenty four hour newscycle with cable news, where you basically
(20:18):
had from evening broadcast until the nextevening broadcast to have stuff gel. Now
we're in what I call the instantaneousnews cycle, where you're literally processing stuff
in real time, and a lotof times people get it wrong, you
know, and then you have toRather than kind of getting the story right
and then putting it out there,we're seeing stories develop in real time exactly.
(20:42):
I wanted to ask one more thingabout the self sorting piece before I
ask you about kind of where wheremiddle of the road, for lack of
a better term, Republican Republicans aregoing to go. But it was interesting.
Dwayne Wade of used to play forthe Miami Heat. Of course,
you know, mentioned this past weekthat Dwayne Wayne most people might not know,
Dwayne Waite has a trans daughter,and he has said he's going to
(21:04):
move out of Florida because he justdoes not feel welcome there, and I
and I think that's the purpose ofa lot of those laws. But I
think what I'm guilty of this,and I'm sure other people are as well.
When we think about red states bluestates, you don't think about like
the folks in a red state thatare kind of don't have the don't have
the means to get out of Dodgeshow to speak, if they wanted to.
(21:27):
They're kind of like living in areality that is collapsing around them.
Where if you're a transperson in Florida, you don't have the money to move
to somewhere that you feel safer.It's kind of like, what am I
gonna do? So what what doyou think the reaction is going to be
over the next ten years or sowhen these pockets of places in the country
are are are passing these laws andand you know it goes state by state,
(21:49):
but there's a population there that youknow doesn't feel safe because of these
things. Yeah, you know,that's a that's a good question. I
think at some point demographic changes thatif you look at longer term demographic changes
in the country were becoming increasingly multiculturaland diverse. That's just the nature of
population growth in the country. Andyou think of a place like Texas,
(22:11):
which has a reputation of being reallyconservative in terms of its selected leaders and
its laws. Up there are verylarge and Latino population, people of color,
other populations in urban cores like Houstonand Dallas and elsewhere, and their
political power is increasing. The questionis will it as it increases to what
(22:36):
extent are are the powers that beable to hardwire in favorable laws and circumstances.
I mean, that's one of thethere's a lot of political science people
who study bureaucracy often talk about theways in which current bureaucracies hardwire in laws,
(22:57):
rules, and operating procedures that benefittheir constituencies because they know at some
point they may be out of power. So you know, I see in
state after state, you look atsome of these states that are actually pretty
diverse in terms of opinion. Thisis shippy is a good example, yeah,
right right, But the folks whoare making law, I mean,
we're seeing it in It was inTennessee with the shooting with the legislature.
(23:19):
You know, Nashville is a veryprogressive place, um, but other parts,
you know, conservatives, particularly inthe rural parts of the state have
been able to control the legislature inGerrymander districts, and so the question is,
at some point can those who youdescribe as kind of being on the
outside, are they become of sufficientpolitical power to change that. I think
(23:41):
you see that happening in places likeGeorgia, which is which feels politically a
little bit different than it did eveneven ten years ago, and other other
places as well. Up in theMidwest, some states have kind of gone
back and forth, place like Colorado, Arizona. So you do have these
changes, but it's a real battleand there's just a lot, a lot
(24:03):
at stake. I mean, that'swhy you see these frantic attempts by each
party to put as many judges intolifetime appointments as possible, because that's an
example of a gift that keeps ongiving. If you can get people in,
even though the other party may controlthe confirmation process. In a few
years, you fill a couple hundredappointments, you've done a lot for somebody
(24:26):
who's maybe in their forties or fifties. They're going to be in that seat
for twenty or thirty years or longZack exactly. Yeah, we're talking about.
Dean Spiliotis in Southern Hampshire University startedthe conversation talking about these polls that
kind of where folks don't really havea basis in reality, or so it
seems, you know, voting forknowledge Trump because he actually won the twenty
(24:47):
twenty election in their opinion. Wherewhere does is there a historical precedent for
this politically, where a party soradically shifts from like what its core principles
were to occult of personality essentially,and where do for lack of the better
term, middle of the road Republicanslike you, you're Chris the New News
or even at this point you're MittRomney's what does the is there a political
(25:08):
future for folks like that? Dothey have to form their own party?
Do they just try to do theytry to joy the Democratic Party to shift
that party to the right? Well, what do you see happening? Yeah,
I mean there are there's there arethere's a field in political science and
in political history called realignment theory wherethey look at big political realignments in the
(25:29):
country. So, you know,the New Deal Coalition which kind of kind
of blurred into the Great Society withLynda Johnson. And so you have this
period from you know, nineteen thirtytwo until Ronald Reagan is elected in nineteen
eighty where there's a very specific setof preferred policy priorities, and then that
changes very radically in nineteen eighty.And there are other periods in history where
(25:52):
you have these big kind of generationalchanges, And I think that's what gives
people like a like a christ andnew type of politician, gives those kinds
of folks hope that things can comeback around or there will be some sort
of change at some point. Youknow, I remember listening to other analysts
talk about the Republican Party and thatthe Republican Party now it's just not what
(26:15):
it was even even back in twothousand and twelve or two thousand and eight
and earlier, and that it willtake several presidential election cycles to get back
out of that. If it's gonnaif it's gonna move on to something else.
You know, we've had twenty sixteen, we've had twenty twenty, twenty
twenty four, twenty twenty eight.It may not be until the twenty thirties
(26:36):
that things change in some sort offundament fundamental way. And we can look
back and say, oh, thatperiod with Trump and Magan and all that
that was, that was transitory,But it was a ten or twelve year
or chunk of time. So Ithink there's always a possibility. I think
the Republican Party will transition into somethingelse eventually. Um, it's just a
(26:59):
question of how how quickly that canhappen, it is there first part of
that was is there a historical presidentfor a party kind of going so all
in on one figure. I know, you know, to a certain extent
in the early eighties, the Republicansare all in on Reagan. But it
was I think it was a littleit wasn't quite the extent. Nobody was
wearing Reagan gear edge of tow asfar as I can remember when I was
a kid back of the day.Have we seen anything like this in American
(27:22):
politics or perhaps, I mean,it's hard to know. I mean,
I think certainly around the world we'vehad a number, you know, a
number of historical movements in particular associatedwith you know, where there were World
wars or World War Two, whereyou do have these have these kinds of
cults of personality. Um, thoseare usually dictators, though it wasn't an
elected right, well, yeah,right, I mean there or or elected
(27:45):
officials who eventually kind of consolidate powerand transition to becoming authoritarians. You know.
In the US, in modern presidentialhistory, you know, I don't
think we've seen anything precisely like whatwe're seeing now. I mean the you
know there FDR was in in thepresidency for four terms two thirty two to
(28:07):
forty five. So died in hisfourth term. Yeah, yeah, he
died in his fourth term. Andso but that's doesn't necessarily mean that there
was a cult of personality around him. Um. But we have had these
times where we've had very you know, sort of strong leaders Reagan certainly.
Uh, it was a big changefor conservatives. Um. So you know,
there are a number there are anumber, you know, I was
(28:30):
just reading about Victor Orbon and Hungarybeing urn Agan and Turkey. Uh.
You know, there have been thissort of concern about these Western democracies kind
of sliding towards authoritarianism and and anduh and a cult of personality. Um,
but most of our intention has beenon these these europe countries in Europe,
(28:52):
uh, not so much in theUS. Right until Yeah, it's
kind of new for us. AndI'm a big I'm a big dorc when
it comes to history, but itis kind of weird living through historical times.
What do you can recognize them whileit's happening? Though, Uh,
well, it's remarkable. I meanwell, and you know, well,
I'm sure we'll transition onto some newphase at some point, but this has
(29:14):
been this kind of current moment,particularly in Republican politics. Uh. You
know the Sarah Palin back in twothousand and eight, right, people,
I remember thinking, wow, thisis she's this, she sounds, and
we're sort of watching the way peoplereacted to her and the kinds of things
that people liked about her. Iremember thinking, And also, I mean
(29:38):
I was an only one with allthis, but like this feels a little
different, right, And that reallywas kind of a harbinger of things to
come. And that was you know, that's fifteen years ago. Yeah,
she was kind of trump one pointor exactly that. That's sort of like,
Okay, we're used to we understandpolitical warfare is nasty and dirty and
polarizing, but this is a littlethis is a little different. You can
(30:00):
do that, but you don't usuallydo that. But she she went there
and it just felt it felt different, and the sort of relish with wish
with which her partisans responded to herwas something that we really hadn't seen before.
Well, Dean, thanks for doingthis and uh yeah, hopefully we
(30:21):
can look back at this time inhistory at some point and chuckle hopefully,
but I guess we'll say so.Thanks for being on the show. Hey,
my pleasure, justin happy to doit. You want to be here
on overtime is Well, it's beenabout two months, I think maybe a
month and a half since I've donea broadcast with Bob Lippan, so I
was starting to I was starting togo through withdrawals. Bob Lipman joins me
(30:41):
as my horse racing expert. Todayis this Derby weekend? Bob? How
are you doing? I'm great.I wish I could say that I'm the
expert. I may appreciate the sportof horse racing more than all of your
other fans, but whether I'm anexpert or not, you'll know at seven
o'clock tonight. I think you're anexpert because here's what happens every year for
(31:03):
people that don't know. Man.The only person that would know this is
my wife, Renee. But everyyear I asked Bob, oh, who
do you like in the derby?And then Bob gives me one are usually
two with the most horses that helikes, And then I'm like, what
does Bob know? I'm gonna betthis one I like with a funny name,
And then what do you know?One of the horses Bob tells me
wins the derby, And I'm anidiot, So I think this is gonna
be the year I finally start listeningto you, Bob, And of course
(31:26):
that means it might be the yearyou don't get it right right. Well,
with twenty horses, you know,you can bet more than one of
them and still come away with aprophet at least most years, and this
year probably is another one like thatlittle that's uh that works when you and
I are talking, when I tellRenee I have bets on seventeen out of
twenty horses. Then then things startto get tense around the Maccassic household.
(31:48):
But let's take a look and whowe got here? So who are you
looking at? We're taking this onThursday. So if somebody turns an ankle
or whatever and has to make anunfortunate trip to the doc. It's you
know, it's out of our control. But who do you like as of
Thursday? Here, Bob, Iwill tell you the horse to beat first
(32:08):
of all, the morning line favorite, and the horse will be the favorite
when they go in the gate isnumber fifteen fourte. He's off five consecutive
wins. He won the Breeders' CupJuvenile, the top race for two year
olds, last year. He's offa win in the Florida Derby this year.
Always one of the great preps,has a top trainer and Todd Pletcher,
(32:30):
top rider and rad Ortiz, andit will probably get you seven bucks
for a two dollar bit. Okay, okay if he wins. But so
much can happen in a race likethis, and I think that there are
a couple that are close enough.I'll give you. I'm gonna give you
two once again. One I thinkwill be at a little bit higher price.
(32:52):
One will be at a little bitlower price. And in fact number
five, Tapic Trice is going tobe the second choice in the race.
He's my pick to win the Derbythis year. But great race in Kentucky
a couple of weeks ago lightly raced. He's only raised five times, he's
won the last four of them.Tap It Trice is trained by the same
(33:16):
trainer of Forte Todd Pletcher, soit's kind of like his one and one
A in the barn, and I'mgoing with number five. The other horse,
who I think as a huge shot. I think though may just fade
a little bit at the end,is number two Verifying, listed at fifteen
(33:36):
to one in the morning line,and he lost by a neck to tap
It Trice in the Bluegrass Stakes acouple of weeks ago, has a couple
of wins on his schedule, trainedby a guy who has won two four
in the race. Brad Cox hasfour horses starting in the Kentucky Derby.
(33:59):
So I'm giving you have number fiveTappa Trice to win. Number two Verifying
would be a long shot pick.And I'm using the fifteen in there as
well. And the other horse I'mleaving in in my in my exacta and
trifecta is the three two fills,two fills, all right, with an
apostrophees, that's right. So immediatelyI look at Tappa Trice, who the
(34:24):
odds of the Kentucky Derby, websiteright now or five to one, And
what jumps out to me is that, yes, top Pletcher, great trainer.
He's as great as the Nantucket missright. Which, there's something about
gray horses which makes my wallets startjumping and say, oh, yeah,
you gotta bet this horse. It'sgray. What is it about gray horses
that people love? Bob? Isthat a thin or am I just making
(34:45):
that up? Yeah? Well,I think it is a thing because it
is pretty unusual. Right, Sowhen you get one and the horse happens
to be really good, I thinkthat it's easy to spot where they are
in the race. It's not theonly gray in the race. By the
way, there are at least twoother ones. Because I was watching some
of the workouts. The one HitShow is a gray horse. The seven
(35:07):
Reincarnate is a gray horse. Theeighteen Rocket Cam is a gray horse.
I have to tell you sometimes Ifeel like a dort because I'm watched like
Formula one practice. But then youjust said you were watching the workouts for
the Kentucky Dirtes And I will neverfeel like a dork again after hearing that.
Well, I mean I will,but not for that. So they
don't know what I'm looking for,though, I mean, that's what are
(35:29):
you watching for, That's the bottomline, because I just want to I
just want to see them in ain action. But I mean, I
can watch a horse run down thestretch and I can't tell you, you
know anything about how that's gonna helpme handicap a race that's on Saturday.
All I know is twenty horses inthe race. Some of them are gonna
get bumped around, They're gonna haveexcuses. Who's gonna get the clean trip?
(35:52):
I have no idea. Indeed,yeah, it said some one of
the most fun two minutes sports.Um, you've been to a number of
these races, right, You've beento a number of Kentucky Derbies or am
I imagining that? I have beento ten and I didn't think it was
that many. What's that experience likelike being at that all ten of them
(36:15):
in the infield? Really? Imean, I know this is an adult
show, but it is a lotof young people having an awful lot of
fun. And if they are normallyin that infield for eight am until late
(36:35):
pm, there's a lot of drinkinggoing on, a lot of fun You're
seeing on TV. The people whoare paying the big bucks on the horses.
They're on the other side of thehats. Yeah, yeah, fancy
hats. And everybody's drinking mint julips, which I happen to find as one
(36:57):
of the not I'll be nice.It's all are awful about them. You
don't you don't you know what thekey is, Bob. After the third
one, they start tasting a lotbetter. I said, But for those
of you buy them because they camein souvenir glasses, right these days,
I don't think they allow you tohave glass in the infield, but yeah,
(37:20):
that would seem to be problematic.But for those who don't know Bob,
Bob's not a big party guy,so I'm a little surprised during the
infield for all ten of them.Is that just because it's the more affordable
place to set? Yes, yes, I was gonna say that, because
it's not a great place to betbecause there are so many people. You
can't you couldn't get near the windows. This was way before you could,
you know, open up your phoneand place him that that way, which
(37:44):
you can do now, thank goodness, we can do that now. So
to recap Bob likes uh, it'sthe fifteen fourte you like that one,
you're pick, but if he getsbeat, I'm hoping it's by one of
my horses. A tap at numberfive, that's your big one. You
kind of like as a lawn shotthe two verifying any other lawn shots might
(38:08):
be worth putting a buck or twobucks on. Yeah, I guess three
two fills twelve to one off ofa off of a good race there.
I can't tell whether or not he'sgoing to move forward to this race or
not. There's a there's a lotof buzz this year justin about Japanese bred
(38:28):
horses. Yes, to this pointthey've never been successful, but they're getting
better and better. And there's ahorse number seventeen, Derma sorta Gake.
I was just looking at that one. One a race in Dubai and now
is shipping over here to the Kentuckyhere will be to try to win this
(38:50):
race. And they say that theJapanese horses are are closing the gap.
I'm leaving this one off because untilI actually see one of them at least
hit the board, which they neverhave, I'll leave them as outsiders.
So kind of interesting watch that there'sanother horse from Japan and the race as
(39:12):
well, that's twenty continue are he'llbe a real long shot in that race.
Lost to the seventeen by ten lengthsof Dubai. Not ideal losing my
ten lengths. But yeah, Idon't know how a horse comes over from
Japan all the way to Kentucky andhas the energy to run. You and
I fly to football games in Michiganand I'm like, I need like six
hours to recover. So yeah,they've been around for a couple of weeks.
(39:34):
Yeah, okay, so they aregetting acclimated. They've been out on
the Churchill Down's course. All right, Well, there are your picks,
and if they don't come in,don't play. Bobby's usually right, but
we'll give you some leeway if youknow, if your picks don't don't hit
the trifecta. But best to luckto you with that, Bob. And
I think this is the year I'mfinally going to listen to your advice.
So now you have it on tape. If I don't listen, you can
(39:57):
come back and and tell me I'mI'm silly for not listening to you,
which you know that that's usually whathappens. Do you have your pick and
Renee's picks, so that that wayI know who to bet. Renee has
to look at the jockeys. Reneeis a big like, let me tell
me who's on the horse, andthen she makes your decision. So I
can tell you she's looking at uh, just by the name and then the
(40:20):
jockeys. One of her guys,it's what is it, practical move?
I believe she likes Ramone Vasquez,who's writing practical moves. So well,
that ends up being the pick.So there you go. Well, Bob,
I'll let you get ready for theFisher Cats game you're about to broadcast
on these fine stations, and uhlook forward to the un age football season
coming up in three three to ahalf bunths or so. Though we'll go
(40:42):
get them see you soon. Welcomeback to Overtime and we're running out a
show that's just about gonna do it. For this week's episode of Overtime,
I want to thank Deeps. Billiotisfrom Southern Hampshire University. Dean is awesome.
Listening to Dean on the morning showwhen he comes on on Mondays and
(41:05):
Thursdays and when he guests hosts aswell. Awesome, my buddy Bob Littman
for given some Derby picks. Bythe time, hopefully by the time you
hear this, the Derby hasn't goneoff. Hopefully listening on the radio.
But if you didn't, of courseyou catch the podcast right after the show,
like subscribe. I'll leave a fivestar rating on whatever podcast happy listen
to. The bosses like to meto tell you to listen on the iHeart
(41:27):
radio app. But whatever, whereveryou get podcasts, you just search for
overtime with Justin mcconsagin bought up beingthe podcast will pop up. Thanks to
Drew Clyde for making such a dumbtweet. I got ten minutes out of
making fun of it because that wasvery helpful. There was other stuff I
wanted to get you too, butthe show is only an hour, and
then when all the commercials are factoredin, it's only forty minutes. So
we'll save some dumb stuff for nextweek. So thanks for listening, thanks
(41:50):
for checking out the podcast, thanksfor just being how about that? And
I remember, hippies are bad peoplepretending to be good. Pumps are good
people pretending to be ad. We'llsee you next week. M
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