Ep. 91: NBA Finals Tied 2-2 - Game 5 Preview, Knicks Coaching Search, and More - 06/16/25

Sam Oshtry and Sean Barnard talk NBA Finals Game 5, Magic trading for Desmond Bane (did they overpay for him?), where the Grizzlies go from here, where KD will end up, Giannis, Knicks coaching search, and more!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Number one on your car radio preset hand the new
and improved Diehard Radio, WAYES and WD two seven three
D Philadelphia.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
It is Fox Sports Radio The Gambler.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
Welcome into picks and Roll on Fox Sports The Gambler
and I have our radio. I am Sam Austria alongside
Sean Bernard. We got a lot to get to in
the NBA world. We had an NBA Finals game last Friday,
or yeah, I guess it was last Friday.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
At this point, we have.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
One tonight coming up. We have a lot of offseason news.
Desmond Bean was traded to the Magic. Kyd stuff is
heating up? Is Gianni's gonna stay? The next coaching search?
We got a lot to get to, Sean. It's been
a wild time in the NBA. While the Finals are
still going on, the Draft is still more than a
week away.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
How are we doing?

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Yeah, I'm pretty pretty thrilled that we're getting the wheels
and turning for the offseason already. Here a massive Desmond
Bane trade to the Orlando Magic. So excited to dive
into what this means for both sides. Honestly, I like
to trade a little bit for both teams. So do
you want to dive into exactly why that is the case,
and of course Game five tonight between the Indiana Pays
and Oklahoma City Thunder, which has been in absolutely excellent

(01:24):
NBA Finals to this point. Excided to dive into what
exactly our expectations are for Game five and why I'm
not rolling out the Indiana Pacers just yet.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
All right, so let's start with the Desmond Bines stuff. Yeah,
because that obviously was the big news yesterday, Desmond being
traded to the Orlando Magic. All the Orlando Magic are
setting back Contavious Coldwell Pope for unprotected first round picks and.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
A pick Swell.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
So it seems like a huge hole on the surface,
but this indicates the Magic are in win now mode.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
That's what this trade is telling everyone.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
Let me ask you a quick trivia question first before.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
We get into the deal.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
The Magic are notorious, or have been in this front
office regiment that they don't trade. They just don't trade
for players. They're not a team that's gonna be a
big transaction team. So let me ask you this, When
was the who was the last player that the Magic
actively acquired in a trade and when.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
Was it actively acquired? Would it be in the Aaron
Gordon trade. Is it that that.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
It'll be in your wheelhouse?

Speaker 3 (02:27):
Especially what I mean by that is that flag over
your right shoulder.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Okay, uh, the last active player that the Orlando Magic acquired.
So I'm trying to think you're not setting up for
Tobias Harris here.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Nope. Uh, I don't know a bust a bust in
Sixers history.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Oh it's Mark al Faults yep, Mark Okay, Okay, And
that was twenty nineteen, So it's been that long.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
And that deal was was it was folks for Jonathan Simmons,
not been and a protective pick, and that protective pick
the Sixers got actually ended up becoming Tyre Smacksy.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
So it's been a long It's been a long time.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
The Magic made a trade for an active player six
years almost. So let me just start with this set
the parameters of the deal. Do you think that the
Magic overpaid for Desmond being.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
I don't, and I think in a vacuum you certainly
can make the case that it is four first round
picks for desmon Ban is a lot. And the real
prize of this trade is the draft pick that was
originally in possession of the Phoenix Suns. The way that
kind of the ramifications are with the worst pick out
of these Suns and the Wizards there, that could turn
out to be a very valuable draft pick, and that
is the real prize from memphisis perspective. But I think

(03:39):
like beggars can't be choosers when trying to find that
next step for a franchise, and I think Desmond ban
is hand in glove.

Speaker 4 (03:45):
For exactly what the Orlando Magic need.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
They shot thirty one point eight percent from the three
point RC last season, not only the worst record in
the NBA, but the worst record of any team since
the twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen Lakers. There, Desmond Bane
can shoot the crap out of the vast man. He's
an over forty percent thirty point shooter for his career.
Even with his number going a little bit down last season,
he was still over forty percent on catch and cheot opportunities.

(04:09):
Should a little bit of playmaking flashes that I don't
think we previously saw from him last year would being
asked to do some different things for Memphis. So I
think when you factor in the fit with the Eastern
Conference being wide open, which we talked about plenty with
Jason Tatum's achilles tear. Obviously, Giannis, we'll talk about what's
next for him, but who knows if he will still
be in Milwaukee.

Speaker 4 (04:27):
The Sixers can't count on the Knicks. Are you afraid
of them?

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Even the Indiana PA Pacers who are obviously in the finals,
who have made these deep runs in consecutive seasons. Now,
I don't think anybody looks at them as like we
can't overcome them in the way that like you look
at the thunder in the West. So I think the
Magic sat there and said, we have Franz Wagner and
Palo Bancaro who are taking the necessary steps we should
be looking for as an organization. We need to take

(04:50):
that next swing, and Desmond Bane is exactly the type
of player that we need. So I like it from
the Magics perspective. Even if you can make the cases
a bit of an overpack.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
You just laid out though the entire Higher East scene
next year, and I think you're gonna see a lot
more teams take this approach where it's like we have
this window where the East is really weekend a big
part because of what the Celtic's gonna be without Jason Teenam,
but just in general, and it looks like Giannis is
gonna stay and we'll talk about that, but.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Just in general, this is a really weak East compared.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
To the West, where there's twelve to thirteen legitimate playoff
teams that would be really good teams in the East.
So you have this window right now where it's like
you have to you have to take advantage of it,
and that's what you're seeing from Magic, a team that
we just discussed doesn't trade players.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
This is their first trading trade.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
For an active player since twenty nineteen. They saw this
window where it's like, we have to take a win
now approach, and Desmond Ban is the perfect perfect fit
for them. Number One, they needed a point guard and
Desmond Ban isn't really a point guard, but he can
be a table setter for Franz Wagner, for Palo Boncio,
even Jalen Suggs. That's obviously gonna be the core four,

(05:55):
and then we'll see who's that fifth starter, but that's
gonna be the four. And then also three point shooting,
and it's not just three point shooting in the spot
up role like Kntavio's co up.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Pope was a really good three point shooter, and that's
why the Magic brought him in last year.

Speaker 4 (06:06):
How last year he wasn't.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
It's funny though, because the two best for agent signings
last year, or at least at the time they were considered,
Paul George and Conavious Coal Pope, and both were disastrous.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
And so interject here, like, I don't think we can't
exaggerate how much of a disaster Candavius Callwell Pope is.
Like another guy who shot his worst three point percentage
over a decade, was straight up invisible out there for stretches,
and they paid him twenty two million dollars per year. That, like,
I think one of these first round picks was more
or less to get off KCP than anything.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, it became a bad contract. Quickly shot thirty four
percent from three, averaged around eight point seven a game.
So it was just it was one of his worst
seasons of his career, and the Magic brought him in
because they need three point shooting. But my point is
that he's a spot up shooter, Like, he's not a
movement shooter. He's not a guy who's coming off ball
screens and gonna knock down threes.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
He's just he's a spot up shooter. People have to
create for him.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Desmond Bean can create for himself. He was awesome in
the picking role well, especially that year you look at
without John Morant where he had to play a ton
of one.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
That was not this season.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
The season before obviously, when Joe was suspended then injured,
and doesn't Ban got injured too, so he only ended
up playing around forty four games, but he was awesome.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
That was the best season in his career.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
He averaged twenty four game and five and a half
assists his career ryan assists, and he was incredibly efficient
in the pick and roll zero point nine to eighty
nine points per possession, ranking excellent on Synergy in the
pick and roll as the ball handler. So he showed
that he can play the one. But he's also a
guy who's a forty one percent career three point shooter,
so he can play off the ball when Polo is

(07:33):
gonna get stretches at the one, when Jalen Suggs can
get stretches at the one. He is the perfect fit
for this team. Three point shooting he's a really good defender.
He can play stretches as a point guard and be
a table setter for Franz Wagner and Paulo Bonkeira. This
is the perfect fit. So when you look at the whole,
I don't care how much they gave up. And it's
really like the McHale Bridges model, where there's no comparable

(07:56):
value in the NBA anymore. You have to look at
every team's individual and it's like if you have a
if you believe that there's a player out there who
can take your team from good to championship contention, it
doesn't matter if on the surface, yeah, mchael Bridge isn't
worth five first round picks on the surface that's been
being probably isn't worth worth four first round picks on
the surface. But what he can do to catabult this

(08:16):
team from a good playoff team, a team that has
won a first round plaoff series in a long time,
to a legitimate championship contender in a week east you
have to take the swing, and same thing with the Knicks.
With Michael Bridges. They thought and they probably still believe,
that mckail Bridges is the missing piece or the championship puzzle.
You give up a ton of first round picks, you
give up a ton of draft capital to find that

(08:37):
missing piece, even if on the surface he's not worth it.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
So I don't think it was an overpay at all.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
And also when you look at these picks, like it's
a sixteenth pick in the draft this year, okay, out
of lottery, could be a good pick next year.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Is really hit or miss? It's the Suns or Wizards.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
The worst of those two probably gonna be the Suns
because we expect the Wizards to be one of the
worst team in the league. The Suns could be like
a playoff team or a playing team, so that could
be like late lottery.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
I don't think. I don't think the Sons are gonna
be good.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
I also don't think they're gonna be ten of the
worst teams in the league.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
And it depends, really itspends. It depends what they get for.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
For for Kevin Durant, Like that's the big thing. What
do they get for Kevin Durant, And then after that
to twenty eight magic, the and the twenty thirty magic
so those presumably and who knows what happens that far
in advance, but presumably the magic should be a good
team and a playoff team, maybe even towards the top
of the East for the next deck for the next
half decade.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
So those aren't like extremely valuable picks.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
I get it seems like a lot four and then
a pick swop in twenty nine, but they're not extremely
valuable picks.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
So I love this deal.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
I don't think it's an overpay at all for Desmond
ban Yeah, that's.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
Definitely the gamble and I like that Bans on our
contract for four more years. You have a chance to
sort of see this stir a little bit, and you're
right about the value that obviously, like every player is
essentially worth something different to every team that like, I'm sure,
and we see this on what the exact trade offers
are for how much a team that values guy versus
all the all these kind of conversations for Desmond Bank specifically,

(09:57):
and I've been pretty critical of the Michale Regis trade.
The reason that I look at this one differently is
it's like such a clear fit of their need and
something that I do think changes them from a whole
like team chemistry perspective and the way that things connect like,
I don't think Palo Bancaro has been given a chance
to fully flourish because he just has never had teammates

(10:18):
to capitalize off the looks that he can create. But
I think the best version of Polo to me is
very clearly and Franz is very similar in kind of
this category, which could become a problem down the line.
But the best version of them is attacking the rim
and kicking out for others. He hasn't had a chance
to do that in any way that brings on effective
offense because there haven't been guys to capitalize on those books.
Can Davie's Calwell Pope was supposed to be that dude

(10:40):
but had a brutal year last year and was invisible there.
If Desmond Bayn can be that guy for a long time,
and I think he can, Like he's done it on
high volume with the NBA level, He's done it off
as you mentioned, off movement, off self created looks, off
just catch and shoot stuff.

Speaker 4 (10:54):
He's gonna fit exactly what they need.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
So given the context of their team, given where they're
at the and the where the entire East their conference
is at, I just get it from the Magic's perspective,
and I think that next year will be the best
Magic team that we've seen in quite some time.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
I think, I think you're one hundred percent right where
the fit is perfect and you give up all that
capital when you have the perfect fit in a week
in East, when you have this window where it's not
it's not even like a short to your window like
this team is going, like you said, doesn't means under
contract for a while.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
That's a big reason why the Grizzlies got.

Speaker 3 (11:23):
Off them, because because there's no no extension they had
to give them or anything where that contract was gonna
expire anytime soon.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
So Grizzlies got off that.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
But you give it to the Magic and it's not
like he's getting paid a lot, but it's not an
absurd contract. You have France, you have Polow who are
under contract recently signed extensions for a while, Jell and
Suggs too. So you have this core now that you
can build with and who knows might be Mowagner at
the five, Goga, Wendell Carter people think could be play
the five. I mean that they're probably gonna need a
better five, but you have this core four that I

(11:54):
think perfectly works where Pollow, You're right, the Magic were
the worst three point shooting team in the entire league.
There's so many Polo can create for his teammates and
his guys just don't knock it down.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
Doesn't be an awesome catchers.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
Shoe shooter, great movement shooter when follows on a bench,
or they want him to play the one doesn't. Bean
can play the one awesome out of the pick and roll,
so does This is like the perfect fit.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
And you kind of look at the history of how.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
We react and the general public and even the NBA
would reacts to some of these huge trades where they're
giving up so many picks. When you go back to
the Rudy Gobert trade, I used to call that the
worst trade in NBA history. That trade netted two consecutive
Western Conference Finals appearance. Yes, and like there you could
have made the real argument that last year they should

(12:38):
have beat the MAVs and been in the NBA Finals.
So everyone clowned that trade, but it ends up being
exactly what the Wolves needed. They became one of the
best defense in the league instantly with Rudy Gobert, and
he has his offensive limitations for sure, especially in the
playoffs where he can't play more than twenty four to
twenty six minutes a night. But he's also he created
his defensively, he's so good that he took that team

(13:01):
to a whole other level. So there was no overpay
for that in hindsight, same m Kel Bridges, Same with
all these guys. It's like, if you have a team
that has an opportunity to go from good to great,
and what I mean by great is contending for a championship,
you have to take that approach, like don't just be
patient and scared.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
You have to take risk.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
And the last thing is it's pretty funny when everyone
compares this steal to like the Luka Doncic steal. Now,
it's like number one, every every executive is different, Like
they are really smart executives who can get good value
for a player, and they are the worst executives in
the history of basketball. And that's what Nico Harrison is.
So some are smart and some are dumb. So like
the Luca hole is not the standard, Like that's the

(13:40):
standard for malpractice in the NBA. That's not the standard
for what you get for And Luca's on a whole
other level of his own. But that's not a standard
what you get for a really good player. And also
comparative value doesn't exist anymore because like every trade needs
to be looked at in a vacuum, like even the
Ojannobi trade, like they didn't give up next thing, give
up a lot and they got a steal for Ogannobi,
and in hindsight, the Raptors should have gotten or for

(14:01):
the player he's become with the Knicks. But it's just
every train as we looked at in a vacuum, and
for this this vacuum, this is a great hole for
the Grizzlies.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
Yeah, one hundred percent there.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
And I do think the Luka Dantis trade will forever
be an outlier in NBA trade conversations there that I
don't think it will ever be a way to fully
properly contextualize that for all the reasons that you laid
out there. Now, we've talked plenty of about this from
the Orlando perspective, and I think you and I see
this very similarly. What does this mean to you for
the Grizzlies perspective for making this deal, everyone's.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
Kind of assuming that this means they're blowing it up
and this is it means they're going to go to
a rebuild and they're gonna ship Jared Jackson out, and
what are they gonna do a job? I don't see
it like that at all. I see it from the
perspective of they just got off a huge contract because
they have it Jaron Jackson extension coming if they give
it to them, which I think they will. So they

(14:51):
got off those two huge contracts and now they have
a ton of assets to work with to build around
John Morant and Jared Jackson and this Grizzlies new coach.
He likes to play really fast, similar to the Pacers style.
They have Jalen Wells there an awesome rookie year, and
they believe can be a really impactful wing for them.
They're gonna play a ton more pick and roll with
Jaron Jackson John Ran, something John Murran hasn't really done.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
And as good as a coach Taylor Jenkins is, they.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Didn't run a lot of pick and roll with John
at all, especially this past season before he got let up.
So now you have this pick and roll combo with
Jaron Jackson and John Moran. I don't think this signals
are rebuilt. I think they're gonna build up with those
two guys. Yeah, the West is really deep. Do I
think they could make moves to become a contender when
there's not a lot of freakings out there, not a
lot of cap space. Once they give Jaron Jackson that extension,

(15:37):
I don't believe that they're gonna be a contender in
the West. But I don't think this means they're gonna
blow it up completely because I don't really know what
the market is for John Moran, and if you trade
Jaron Jackson, then John Uran has to be next, because
there's no point of holding on to a guy like that.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
You're just entering a huge rebuild.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
So I think at least for the first half of
this season at least, they're gonna give it a go
and see where they are by the deadline, and maybe
they rethink it.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
But I don't see any major moves coming.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
I know a lot of people are saying that, and
that's kind of been the reaction to this Desmond Beans deal.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
I don't see that happening.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
I think they stamp pat for the rest of the summer,
building around Jaron Jackson and Ja Moran.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
I get your point, and I can see a world
with this happens. I don't think they should, like look
around the west Man what team constructed around John Morant
and Jaron Jackson Junior, who I think are two of
the more flawed basketball players like in the sport to
be perfect honest, Jaron Jackson Junior is one of the
best room protectors, who's a really poor rebounder and a
guy who like can't be a primary rebounder in a

(16:32):
court at all six foot ten of them. And John
Moran is one of like the worst free throw or
worst three point shooters of any star guard in the
league here, like below thirty percent again last year. Both
these guys have like massive red flags and who they
are as basketball players. And that's not even factoring factoring
in like the lack of consistent availability from Morant for
a variety of reasons from injuries to off court stuff.

(16:55):
There's like a ton of concerns here and I just
don't see a way where like they can get in
the conversation where they're close to a Denver Nuggets or
the Oklahoma City thunder who seemed to be the gold standard.
The Houston Rockets will be taking that next step the
San Antonio Spurs, I think if Memphis wants to be
honest with their self last right now and like just
looking at their odds, which I get to get this

(17:16):
in everything, but on draftings right now, they have the
tenth best odds winning the Western Conference next year, and
that feels kind of right to me, Like I don't
see a world where there's a pathway to them getting
in that same mix. So while I get it's hard
to move on from star players and maybe you can
have like sell some tickets John Moran, you know, we'll
do some crazy stuff on every night there, I just

(17:36):
don't think that Memphis should probably be honest with themselves
and evaluate, like maybe our best direction as a franchise
is the lit the dust, settle and let all these
like young hungry teams go hard for a couple of
years as we retool, and then get back in the mix.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
With six weeks to go in the regular season, this
Grizzly team was the two seed in the West, a
super jumbled Western Conference standings. They were the two seed.
They go on a two and eight stretch over ten games,
They fired Taylor Taylor Jenkins, everything falls apart. They end
up getting the eighth seed and the Thunders sweep them.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
I get your point. I like I get your point.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
I'm not gonna think the Grizzlies are a contender, and
I certainly I probably wouldn't even pick them as a
playoff team next year, honestly, right, based on how deep
that West is, like I made depending on what the
Suns get for a KD deal, I like I could
like a Devin Booker led Sons over them.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
The problem is, like, what's the market for Jaw right now? Like?

Speaker 3 (18:28):
Why not just let it play out at least half
the season? See how you go? Go go to the
trade deadline, and then the market for John might heat
up the mike if the market for Jaron Jackson, who
will have plenty of suitors out there, might.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
He heat up? Like why? Why? What's the market for
those guys out there?

Speaker 3 (18:44):
And if it's not great right now, especially coming off
a year with Jaw I thought had one of the worst.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Seasons he's had in years.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
Still a lot of character issues with Jaw and Grizzlies
fans seem to like love Jow like they like they
would be super.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
Pissed if they traded him, And I don't really get that.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
He's not like some Luka Doncics type where he came
over and brought your team to ame finals and that
type of an impact on your team.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, you've been really relevant and good.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
It's not like he had a lot of playoffs success
under Jaw and the off the character, off the court
stuff is like it's it's it's hard.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
Because right now you're going looking at job, like why
would you trade for him?

Speaker 3 (19:16):
And how much are you getting back in a deal
for a guy who a lot of character issues.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
They're just are like does anyone believe he's actually mature?

Speaker 3 (19:23):
Like the guy got suspended for gun stuff for flashing
guns on IG Live and then was like toss shooting guns.
Its celebrations tossing tossing grenades. And not to be the
old curmudgeon here, but it's like it's like, obviously the
guy is super immature and there's no reason to believe
they'll actually be on the court for character concerns, but

(19:43):
also because he's always injured, like the guy who's really
injured and the Grizzlies were actually really good without him
in the line of this year when he was always
constantly hurt. Because he's a really aggressive downhill player, even
though his drives were down this year, and he said himself,
He's like, I'm not dunking this year to avoid injury,
and that obviously that went out the window pretty pretty quickly.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
He's an unbelievable dunker and high flyer.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
But because of that, and because of how small he is
and athletic he is going at the rim, he gets
injured a lot around the rim and he's missed a
lot of time. So I don't know what the market
is for him right now, which you slick around the league,
you're like, who is that interested in acquiring John?

Speaker 2 (20:15):
How much are they really giving up?

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah, and it is a real bummer that he got
hurt at the playoffs this year because I don't know
if you heard him, but he had this Thunder team
figured out, damn. So might we might be looking at
a very different Yeah, it might be looking at a
very different finals matchup because he's good in the West,
so you know, it makes that load.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
There were thirty five in one game, remember that. I
think it was game thirty five and then the Thunder
come back.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
But I mean, I think that's fair that you would
probably be cashing in the asset at a low point here.
If you are looking to trade John, I think there's
probably some credence to getting him back on the floorida
regular rate show, showcasing what he can do and letting
him run his system. I also like to bring in
the Taylor Jenkins conversation. I like Taylor Jenkins. I'm Taylor
Jenkins kind of defender here. I think you set up

(20:56):
for failure, Like directly last year they replaced his entire
assistant staff and kind of had this like offensive coordinator
slash difference in opinion for what they were running. There's
no coach that can function well in that type of environment.
And I think you kind of like, like there was
greater success for this Memphis Grizzly team when it was
Taylor Jenkins running the entire show.

Speaker 4 (21:16):
That was not the case last year.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
And I also think like, like it made me mad
the way they like felt It felt to me like
they did him wrong.

Speaker 4 (21:23):
And I am curious what like the future direction is.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
I get that they're probably gonna do the slant of
new coach, new system, hopefully new results from an offensive perspective.
With both Jaron Jackson Junior and John Morant. There but
I don't know, man, I'm Taylor Jenkins. I think got
a bum wrap getting out of Memphis.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
One hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
They set him up a failure, and he should be
glad that he's gone. And whether he takes the year
off or ends up becoming the Knicks head coach, will
be better off because of it, because if it's not
this cycle, next cycle.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Will easily get a job.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
That'll be a much better situation than this Memphis situation,
if there is. I listened to the Bill Simmons podcast
last night, and Bill and Ryan are the best, but
they laid out like one hundred Jaron Jackson trades and
we're just going. The entire podcast was just Bill going
these doing these fake trades that were just so unrealistic.
And look, he's the fake trade master, but these trades

(22:12):
were so unbelievably unrealistic, no chance of happening.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
It's not like one or two.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
They laid out legitimate, like twenty trades between all these
different guys who could potentially be available.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
It's like none of these are happening. They're fun to do,
but like, none of these are happening. If you did
see a landing spot for Jaron Jackson Junior.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Where would it be right now? Yeah, it's interesting. I
haven't got all the way through the Bill Simmons podcast.
Yeck like to listen to about the first half hour
of it. San Antonio is a team that is a
little bit interesting to me that I like, I really
feel I want to see Wem be paired with a
front court guy that like sets the defensive tone like
I've very much been pushing the honest conversation, and I

(22:47):
still if I'm san Antonio would really try and take
a swing at that. I don't think it's going to happen.
Jared Jackson Junior. Obviously isn't you honest to any extent here?
But I think you could do something similar as far
as like having two guys that are incredible high level
rim protectors and make life impossible to score for opponents there.

Speaker 4 (23:04):
I don't like Houston as a fit.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
I think they've got too many Jaron Jackson ish type
guys already there. I honestly, I started off a huge
Jaron Jackson Junior guy. I sort of have faded and
sold some stock here that the rebounding stuff is like
real deal concern to me. And obviously they brought an
Edie in Memphis to sort of pair him there, and
I think there were some decent stretches where they looked okay.

(23:26):
But being a guy who isn't a particularly good shooter,
who is a super high level rim protector and can't
really rebound at a high rate, I have a really
hard time figuring out how we can like truly win
at a high level with that guy. So I think
if I'm a team around the NBA, I'm not empty
in my tank of assets to get Jared Jackson Jr.
Like one of the conversations they had was who do
you trade more for, Desmond Bane or Jared Jackson Jr.

Speaker 4 (23:48):
To me, that answer is like, very clearly Desmond Bane.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
I'm with you on that.

Speaker 3 (23:52):
I mean, they're obviously different, different, very different players, and
depends what your roster needs. I like the Spurs fit
a lot because some one Jared Jackson Junior shoot the ball.
He's a really a three point shooter, so him and
Wenby and Wemby likes to take a lot of threes too,
so those two guys can compliment each other pretty well.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Again, Jared Jackson Junior.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
A big thing is the rebounding and He's not a
great rebounding When you're paired with Wemby, that's fine. That
would be an unbelievable front court and rim protecting front
court duo. There was no scoring at the rim when
those two guys are on the floor together, two defensive
players of your candidates last year, and Wemby would have
won it easily if he didn't get to have the
blood clot issue and miss more games than he was
eligible for. But Jared Jackson Junior was also one of

(24:31):
the favorites towards the end of the year. Him and
Evan Mobley were really neck and neck, and Andremond Green
and Ludor and those guys came in the mix. So
those are two of the best defensive players as rim
protectors in the league.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
So I like that fit too. Let me before we.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
Wrap up on this trade because we've gone long on
this trade, but it was the blockbuster trade so far
of NB off season. All the finals are still going on,
which we'll get to. Where do you see the magic
going back to the magic side acquiring Desmond Bean And
there's still more things to figure out the five position
with their roster, their death all that, where do you
see the magic ranking of the East, and just to
lay out the odds real quick, the odds for next season, Pacers, Calves,

(25:07):
Knicks and Celtics all of better odds out of the
East teams to win the championship on the Magic and
the magic of the fifth best odds in the East.
Where do you see if you were going to ranked
teams in the East right now, where would you put
the magic. I'm assuming the Pacers and Calves are over them.
I got the Knicks over them. Where do you put
the magic right now?

Speaker 1 (25:25):
I think the Magic will absolutely be a top four
to seed going into the playoffs next year.

Speaker 4 (25:29):
I think they will be like one of the harder regular.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
Season teams that wins a ton of games and learn
how to play with each other. I think when having
like the playoff conversation about like how legitimate are their
chances of winning a championship? I don't think it probably
happens next year. That Palo and Franz are both still
incredibly young, both under twenty four years old at this point,
Desmond Bane still got some youth to them, so I
think it will take probably two or three years before

(25:51):
this team like fully puts it together. Suggs and himself
is still very young, and I mean they got a
ton of other pieces that need to continue growing, Anthony
Black and guys like that who will be impact players.
So I think this is a bit of a long
term kind of conversation for me that like, probably flash
forward three years and I'm viewing them as like legitimate contenders.

Speaker 4 (26:08):
I see the pathway of them getting there.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
But for next year directly, I think they're probably a
top four seed and likely the second round exit in
the playoffs, which if you can win a series, that's
a step forward, and I still think that you're feeling
pretty good about yourself moving.

Speaker 3 (26:21):
For I got the Calves are better, the Pacers are better,
and the Knicks are the three teams I think are
definitely better. I got them ahead of the Celtics right
now without Tatum, and we'll see what the Celtics teams
look like because we know trades probably for Drew Holiday,
maybe Christaps Porzingis are on the way. But I think
this Magic team is the fourth best team in the East,
even if the Bucks keep you honest, I don't think

(26:42):
that's a good roster surrounding Giannis at all. So when
you have this opportunity where it's like you're the fourth
best team in.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
The East and there's none of those teams are that beatable.

Speaker 3 (26:50):
You just saw the Calves who won sixty four games
get knocked down the second round. Pacers are on this
incredible run. I still think a lot of teams are
going we can beat that team or as good as
we're as good as that team. And then you have
the Knicks, who I think are the better roster but
still question marks there of course defensively with and they
don't even have a coach right now.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
So I think the Magic are.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
The fourth best team in the East, and there's not
that big of a gap between one and four. So
that's why we were talking about earlier, why you have
to take the swing and become an instinct contended.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
I know it's kick them all, they're down sort of
territory right now, But don't you forget about these Philadelphia
seventy six or Sam I no, I consider them.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
I consider them.

Speaker 3 (27:32):
It's just like I'm never going to take the Sixers
to ever make a playoff run in the Eastern Conference ever.
Like it's so if Joel Embiid is your best player,
I just can't.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
I won't say ever.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
I'll say while Joe Ellenbid is on the court, and
while we're on the Sixers. Zach Low actually made this
point on his podcast the other day, and I think
I said it to you a couple of weeks ago.
When you watch these teams where it's like Eastern Conference,
Western Conference, you play every other day and then you
have this in the finals where you have more rest,
but these guys are playing so hard that they're so
well conditioned, there's no scenario. And he actually just pointed

(28:05):
out it was he wasn't even making a point about
anything other than just to kind of pile on the Sixers,
but it was a good point.

Speaker 4 (28:12):
Then it's like that right now.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, but when you look at these teams who actually
make these runs, there is no scenario Joel Embiid can
be at seventy percent health, even if he makes through
the whole season seventy percent health or properly conditioned for
four finals run.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
So I like, I think the six.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
Are actually gonna have a really good regular season next
year and we'll see what they do at number three.
There's no way I'm I'm putting the magic or or
excuse me, I'm putting them above the Magic or Nicks
or any of these teams.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
When Joel Embiid is your best player, not for a
playoff run.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
I don't think he can be with like a top
five usage rate in the NBA, as has been the
case really throughout his entire career here. But I still
think there's a whorld where you can kind of scale
that back a little bit. You put more on Jared McCain,
you put more on Tyrese Maxy. Whoever this third pick
is is an impact player, and who knows, maybe.

Speaker 4 (28:57):
Paul George remembers how to play.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Basketball for a season after getting paid fifty million dollars.
So like, I still think that there's a pathway to
getting there. I understand, like I'm talking myself into this.
This isn't just like neutral, you know, I totally believe
this or everyone should believe this.

Speaker 4 (29:14):
Right there, it's fair to be very skeptical of it.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
But I think like, if everything were to go right,
people have sort of slept on what the Sixers team
could still be.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, but if everything goes right is the key phrase
there and always has been with the Sixers, And nothing's
ever gone right, and that's because of Joel and BT's
health at the centerpiece of it.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
So I'm not let me rephrase it then, like if
everything goes right for the Magic, where does that team
stack up on like a medium things going right for
the Sixers, because I think that's sort of the equal conversation.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
If everything goes right for the Magic, I still think
they're a better team right now than the Sixers with
with Joel and be Like, if Joel and Beat is
completely healthy, that's why it's like so hard to have
these conversations.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Joel and Beat is completely healthy.

Speaker 3 (29:59):
Yeah, I think I think the Sixers are the better
team because Joel Embiid not just completely healthy if he's
back to playing an MVP level, because he's one of
the best players in the league, best talents in the league.
When he's actually completely healthy and that knee is fine,
I just I have there's no reason to have any
faith that that's the reality. And again, like in a
playoff series, if those two teams are playing in the
second round, I'm gonna trust the Magic's attrition more than

(30:19):
I am the Sixers and.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
That and that that's for good reason.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
That's because everything that evidence has shown us and beads
entire career.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Tyre's Maxie is better than Desmond Bane, right, Yeah, Yeah,
that's a good one. That's a good one.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
I do think it's not it's close, but yeah, i'd
rather want Tyrri Smax, especially build a team around.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
I'd rather want Tyrus Maxon.

Speaker 4 (30:43):
Okay, that's a good question.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
That's that's it's not like you have to think about
that one. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:47):
No, they're definitely in the same sort of tier.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
And guys that I wouldn't I wouldn't have been ten
to is furious if you did go Desmond Bane.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
There.

Speaker 4 (30:54):
I think it is close, But I do think Maxie
is the answer.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
I think the way that he can move the movement,
the way he can lead a fast break, get down. Hell,
there's just more ways that you can use him, I think,
even if. And I still think he deserves more credit
for his growth defensively last year back to back picks
in the draft and that season. So shout out to
this you guys, I believe. So, yeah, I would still
lock in MAXI So glad.

Speaker 3 (31:15):
I'm with you on that. I'm definitely with you in that.
All right, let's there's still a series going on right now.
We still have a crowned and NBA champion.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
So well.

Speaker 3 (31:21):
While we talked thirty minutes for about the Magic Grizzlies trade,
because that's the news around the NBA, let's talk the
NBA Finals because the series is tied to to and
it was really close, and I think I believe and
you probably believe too, at some points in that third
and fourth quarter the Pacers were going to get this
thing done and this series is gonna be three to
one heading back to Oklahoma City, the Thunder pull it out.

(31:42):
We have a Game five tonight with a series tied
to two back in Oklahoma City. Thunder huge favorites, nine
and a half point favorites at home. You've seen that
pretty consistently when they've been at home throughout this series.
At this point, they've been favoring every single game, even
on the road, substantial favorites. Where do you look at
Let's go back to Game four before we look ahead
the game five. What were your biggest takeaways from Game four?

(32:03):
And how surprised are you that the Thunder won an
NBA Finals game in the modern NBA making three three
pointers and only ten assists.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah, I think the Indiana Pacers continue to deserve some
more respect. I thought defensively that the way they really
asserted themselves in that game was really telling and really impressive.
I think Shae Gills Alexander deserves even more flowers than
he's been given for taking over down the stretch, being
the MVP caliber guy, the clear cut best basketball player
in the world right now. The way he was in
that fourth quarter, it was impressive stuff. It was a

(32:34):
grown up, mature victory by this Thunder team, So I
give them a ton of props a ton of respect
for it. I also think on the other side of
the coin, it's tough not to be frustrated if you're
Indiana that they had a chance to grab an absolute
stranglehold of this series, and it felt like what was
most maddening to me is they sort of went away
from their identity down the stretch there, that they stepped
away from this team oriented basketball with the ballpop and

(32:56):
motion going around all over the place. That there did
play some isolated down the stretch, and I understand that
they still do that, And I think there's been a
bit too much made about like targeting Chet Homegrin and
how good Chet was defensively, honestly, those three shots, and
they did kind of put them on an island. I
can live with all three of those, the step back
from Naysmith, the Halliburton three that he obviously air balled,
and then the Miles Turner three that I think he

(33:17):
just kind of rushed after doing the side step there.
I didn't think any of those were bad shots, and
it was. It is a make or miss league, so
our tune's gonna be very different.

Speaker 4 (33:25):
About those if one of those shots do go in.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
But ultimately it was missed opportunity from Indiana's perspective. But
the Thunder deserve credit for going out there and taking it.
With Shay as their leader.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
There's certain moments throughout playoff runs where teams and players
kind of just grow up and like they earn their stripes.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
And that's what this felt like, honestly for the Thunder.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
And it happened against the Nuggets too, where they trailed.
It was a similar scenario. They trailed two to one
in that series and they looked like they were going
to lose Game four and they come back and end
up winning Game four and great clutch time offense, great
plus performance from Shay and that's exactly what you saw.
And I'm with you where the Pacers completely choked this
game away. The best unit in this entire series to

(34:08):
me has been the Pacers defense. They've been so incredibly impressive.
And I thought Shay Gills Alexander had a really bad
game through three and you could even say, like three
and a half quarters. Number one, the Pacers have completely
They've just been blitzing him, all over him, making him
incredibly tired, picking him up full court. And you saw
that in Game three and late in Game three, even

(34:29):
in the third quarter in Game three, were watching that
game together, you saw Shay Gils Alexander had his hands
on his knees. He looked exhausted, like he was he
was leaning over in the third quarter, which you don't
see from Shaye a lot.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
He looked exhausted.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
The Pacers did a great job of hounding him, collapsing
the defense, crowding his drives, and he wasn't getting to
the free throw line as much. You saw that also
pick up in the in game four two where I
thought Shay had a really bad game and through three quarters,
I should say, and one thing the Thunder did was
number one, his substitution patterns were completely different.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
He gave got out with like five minutes to go
in the first quarter, which is very rare.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
He usually plays almost the entire first quarter, so they
were trying to get him extra rest early in the
game so he'd be energized later in the game. And
also what you saw is he played more off the
ball than I think I've seen all year. And that
was Jalalen Williams becoming the initiator coming the becoming the
primary ball handler for this team, and Shaye didn't have
the responsibility of bringing the ball up the floor and

(35:25):
taking all the energy of bringing the ball to the floor.
And you saw that that's what the Pacers kind of
forced teams to do against the Knicks last series. Jalen
Brunson was getting Hound to bring the ball to the floor,
and eventually it was josh Hart mckel bridges who were
bringing up the floor. And that's what the Pacers do
to you because they don't want you that's their whole plan.
It's to wear you down so late in the game
you're tired and you're exhausted, and it forces your primary

(35:45):
ballhandler to play more.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Off the ball.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
And I thought That's exactly how the Thunder kind of
reacted to that, and I thought they did a decent
job of getting Shay Looks off pinned downs and dribble
handoffs and all that type of stuff while he was
off the ball.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
I still don't think he played a really good.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
Game, But what you saw is the two things that
that have led the Thunder to this point, defense and
Shae becoming the MVP when he needed to. Those two
things are what came up late in the fourth quarter.
Shait obviously fifteen fourth quarter points, and it was really
in the last five minutes or so, a three he
hit when the Thunder only had had two threes the
entire game up to that point. He was out a

(36:21):
three throw line more he was getting to his mid
range spots. Of course, that bucket on the baseline that
he hit, that was one of the key moments late
in that game. Shae became who Shay has been all season.
And then on the other side, the Thunders defense have
been was just awesome down the stretch, Like in the
final few minutes, Tyres Halliburn had nothing going downhill. They
completely shut off Pascal Siakam the Thunders defense, who I

(36:43):
thought struggled most of the game, even though the Patriers
didn't score that much.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
I thought the Thunder defense looked lost.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
They were late on help, the rotations were late, which
is really rare to see from this elite Thunder defense.
But they just turned it up to a whole nother
level in the last few minutes of that game, and
that felt like this was the Pacer opportunity to seize
the moment, and they didn't take advantage of it. And
Thunder got over that stretch where they played an awful
game for most of the game on the road. The

(37:09):
series probably would have been over if they lost that game,
and they find a way, and that's what NBA Champions do.
So I feel more confident than ever that the Thunder,
even though we have a series, I don't think it's
going to be like it could still go seven, but
still I feel more confident than ever the Thunder will
be crown champions.

Speaker 4 (37:24):
Yeah, no, definitely.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
And they did go back to the Isaiah Hartenstein starting
lineup there. It honestly didn't look that good to me
that I kind of am curious what they will do
tonight here.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
I think Hartenstein struggled a little bit and for a.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Guy that obviously, like, I don't think they beat the
Nuggets without having him on this roster. So it's not
like the signing was a mistake or anything like that,
but it has surprised me the lack of impact that
he's had in the series. And I think that the
Thunder still should have entered this NBA Finals with the
belief of, like, this is our lineup, this is what works,
what has worked best, and then make the adjustment when needed.

(37:56):
The fact that they were still a little bit premature
or proactive in making that call there, I do think
it's interesting and something that kind of changed the outlook
from here because I don't know what I would do
if I was at them tonight. I think they probably
go back to the small lineup and take hard and
see out again. But it's just kind of strange there.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Until that point.

Speaker 3 (38:12):
It's kind of weird. And this is why I would
be optimistic from the Pacers. We're five games in or
four games into this thing, and the Thunders still don't
really know what they want to do from a substitution
and lineup perspective.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Yeah, usually at.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
This point in a series, you figured it out and
the Thunder is still like searching for stuff. Like you said,
they obviously started case in Wallace the first few games
of the series. Then good Isaiah Hartenstein that looks not great,
a shaky at times. Alex Cruso that the closing lineup
is their best lineup, and that's with Alex Crusoe playing
instead of Isaiah Heartenstein alongside Chet Shay, Janlen Williams and

(38:45):
Lou Dort of course, and Alex Cruso has been just
a savior from of a Thunder throughout this entire PLAYTFFORM,
But it still seems like the Thunder don't know exactly
what they want to do with their lineups. Like Aaron
Wiggins has a great game the other night and then
he just barely plays. It's like if he's not yet
or going early, not going to give him opportunities. And
it's the same with a lot of guys, Like why
is Kenrich Williams playing like he played more than Aaron

(39:05):
Wiggins last game? I don't think like he's had some
great moments defensively, He's not the score or we're going
to provide the burst that the Thunder need offensively, how
I don't understand he's not really guy, it's been in
the rotation all year.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
Now they're just trying him.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
They're again they're they're trotting out lineups that they just
haven't consistently used throughout the season, which is kind of
weird where you're reacting to the Pacers where pacers should
be reacting to you. I agree Cason Wallace should have
came off the bench initially, and he's just kind of
been bad this series. He's capable of long offensive burst,
but he's kind of just been bad this series. Isaiah

(39:39):
Joe isn't getting that many opportunities. That's a guy who
can explode for four or five threes and could be
a game shifter in any NBA Finals game, kind of
like how Aaron Wiggins was in Game two.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
So he's not getting that many opportunities. It's weird what
the Thunder doing.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
They still haven't figured out exactly their lineups and when
they want to play them, and we're four games into
the Finals.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah, I think they've been overthinking things a lot to
be honest, too, like it feels like they're trying to
outsmart this Pacers team, when to me, the mindset should
be we're the team that won sixty eight games in
the regular season, we're the team that is the clear
cut favorite to win the NBA Championship. Here, we're the
team that has gone through the significantly tougher conference to
even get to this point. That we're gonna play our
brand of basketball until you prove you can stop it,

(40:22):
and that is not how they operate whatsoever. You're right
that it is like really strange to me that there
is continue to be like these different attempts and mismatched lineups,
like this is the NBA Finals here, this is not
a you know, random game sixty of the regular season
that we're still trying things. You should know what your
identity is. And for the most part, like going into
this series, I would have said, I'm confident that they do.

(40:42):
That they know exactly what they are or at least
the blueprint of how they're gonna get to their their
best vision of them as a team. It really hasn't
felt that way. So again, I think a lot of
it is them just overthinking things. But stop straying from
the script too much. Play your best, guys. I understand
that you're gonna go deep, and that's kind of a
little bit of the who they are are, but like
it's been, it is very strange.

Speaker 4 (41:03):
They keep experimenting to this extent.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
And it's the thund I think what they're trying to
do is provide more offensive jolts, and I think that's
kind of what they did why they put Isaiah Hardenstein
back in the starting lineup and then the two man
game between him and Chet, which has been pretty successful
throughout the season and most of the postseason, even though
it hasn't been for stretches in this finals, they want
more offense because this Pacers defense, like I said earlier,

(41:28):
has been the best unit out of any team, and
they're completely shutting down not just Shay from most of
this series. I don't care about the stats when he's
been really I know how much he's scoring when he's
been really inefficient, and he used to work for a
shots that's especially in the mid range.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
That's what the Pacers want. Jaalen Williams has been awesome.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
He's been a savior for the Thunder, especially last game
when he was playing more of the one initiating offense.
I thought he was great, especially when Shae was struggling
through those first three quarters. I thought Jalalens Williams was
the guy who's providing the offensive jolt. I just don't
understand like they they're not passing the ball, they're not
moving the bawl. Their identity as an offense has completely

(42:07):
shifted in this finals and they're pretty lucky to be
in this spot where they're two too, like we talked about,
it easily could have been three to one. Their identity
is shifted where three of their fifteen lowest assists totals
or excuse me, lowest passing totals this entire season, regular season,
m postseason have come in this finals. They just aren't
moving the ball near as much as they were throughout

(42:29):
the season.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Like this team.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
This team has so much depth. Yeah, they play a
lot of ISO with Shay and and he can get
to any spot he wants. But this team also moved
the ball incredibly and that was one of their big
strengths offensively, even though the defense is is what they're
known for. They're not moving the ball. They're playing way
more ISO, and that's the Pacers play, and that's what
the Pacers want. They want them to play way more ISO.
That's what the Thunder are doing. So I don't understand that.

(42:51):
Another part of it is the Pacers transition defense has
been incredible.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yeah, Thunder, we have.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
Forced a decent amount of turnovers against this Pacers team,
but they're not converting those into points, and that's been
the bread and butter with this Thunders offenses.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Their defense leads to offense.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
They get so many points in transition off of turnovers.
That hasn't been the case because the Pacers defense deserves
all the credit for just sprinting back on on defense
and they're really sacrificing offensive boards where they're just going
strictly to try to sprint back on defense to stop
the thunders transition transition attack and it's working. So when
those points aren't coming from the Thunder and they have

(43:24):
to play a lot in the half court, they're just
playing so much isolation, not moving the ball, and it's
it's been disappointing but also surprising, and I think the
Thunders still have a lot to figure out offensively if
they're going to close this series out.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, No, definitely there and it definitely strange across the board.
The transition defense has been excellent, like some of the
highest level that I've seen as far as them just
getting backshot.

Speaker 4 (43:46):
TJ McConnell has been in that in the mix of
plenty has.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Been great, this series great.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yeah, legitimately swinging in any NBA Finals game, So pretty
sick there. So we've danced around a little bit. What's
your prediction for Game five tonight? Do you think it
is been a complete miss opportunity that the Pacers did
not steal a win game four or do you think
that they have a chance at picking up another victory tonight.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
It does feel like the thunder in that game, and
we see this in the series all the time, where
a team misses an opportunity against the team that they're
probably worse than massive underdogs against. When you miss an
opportunity against team like that, a team that won sixty
eight games historically great defense, best point differential in NBA history,
second best net rating in NBA history. When you miss

(44:28):
opportunities like that to close out games.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
You're usually cooked. The thing is this Pacers defense.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
Excuse me, this Pacers team just doesn't go away ever, Like,
there's no way I'm counting out this Pacers team. They've
earned all the respect in the world for me because
just of how relentless they are. They are just so relentless,
and they've especially defensively, how they've turned up their defense
to stop to stop this Thunder's attack. I think the
Thunder wins the night, but nine and a half is
a lot of points. All these games have been pretty competitive,

(44:55):
and I don't think it's going to be some type
of blowout after the way the Pacers sold that game,
So I think it stages within nine and a half.
On the spread, I would take the Pacers, but I'm
pretty I'm pretty sure and confident the Thunder will win tonight.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Yeah, I do like the plus nine and a half
in favor of Indiana. Here the books, the odds maker
is still not respecting this Pacers team pretty much at all,
and you can still get like plus four hundred. I
think it's plus four to ten for them to win
the series right now. I'm really thinking about taking a
chance on that. Like, I do see a world where
this Pacers team could win in Oklahoma City tonight and
then they're taking things back to Indiana, which would be

(45:30):
very interesting there. Game seven will be tough if that's
where things go back, But it wouldn't shock me whatsoever
if these teams do go Like, you know, both win
on the road in the next two games.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
Best best of three is what it is at this point.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
Yeah, and the Pacers are depending on the book plus
four hundred is roughly the number of most books.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
That's remarkable, Like it's the best of their series.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
The series is tied to too, Piacers could easily be
up be up three to one. Piacers have defied all
of the odds this entire playoff. For one, how why
are they not earning the respect that they deserve at
this point? It's pretty wild. I'm with you, where like
the road home thing doesn't really matter to me that much.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
It never has. I think even though that Pacers.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
At first, when I was watching Game four, I thought,
like the broadcast I was technically, I was like, it's
the broadcast, Like it's the broadcasters like that their voice down,
their MIC's down, because I could barely hear them. And
then I kind of realized they were drowned out because
of the noise from the Pacers fans like that atmosphere
looked electric. But like I've said this entire season, and
I've said for a few years now, that home court
advantage means nothing to me.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
In the playoffs or the finals.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
Whatever it is there, these are guys who can overcome
really tough atmospheres, so the road home thing doesn't matter
to me that much. In a potential game seven, which
Oklahoma City could have it if they split these next
two games, I could see it ending in six. Honestly,
I think the thunder winds night, even though I think
it's relatively close, and I could see them going back
to Indiana. But at the same time, I won't be
shocked if it goes seven, because that's how tight this

(46:52):
series has been. There's a couple of players though, like
Miles Turner has to be better. Yeah, he's he's I believe,
six for two twenty one and one for ten from
three in his last shots. He's getting shots in the
last game from three, Oh yeah, oho for six so
and one for four in the game before that. Those
last two games, he's just been bad and he's getting
looks that he wants like they the Pacers obviously won

(47:14):
him to play in the pick and pop role, and
he gets on those pop he gets open threes, and
those are shots he makes like he's a good three
point shooter, and they're comfortable him shooting those. He just
hasn't been that good. He just hasn't been that good
as a shooter Defensively. He's had good moments against Chet,
but he also struggled defensively at times. I just think
Miles Turner is the guy that I think the Pacers

(47:35):
need to count on for this game.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Yeah, his rebounding has been all over the place too,
and kind of has all playoffs truths plays that there's
games where like he lock. I mean, in general, he's
not as good of a rebounder as he would hope
for to be the case. He's got a little bit
of Jaron Jackson junior syndrome and him from a guy
that ken block shots and ken shoot threes but can't
quite rebound the ball to high right there.

Speaker 4 (47:55):
But there are like they need more from him out
of that category.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
I have a tough time with the three point conversation because,
like you said, these aren't bad looks that he's getting,
Like the offense is actually is essentially functioning as designed
to create these open threes for Turner.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
He just doesn't hit them.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
So I kind of think like you basically got to
see it through at this point and just bank on
that we know this guy's like caliber as a shooter
and the overall sample size, and just hope there's a
little bit of regression to the mean because like you
live with the shots that he's taken, he just hasn't
hit him to this point.

Speaker 3 (48:24):
Sort he's just thirty nine percent three point shooter on
the season. It's like you're comfortable with him shooting those.
Last thing I was just going through my notes. Last
thing I want to say is, you know, it's really interesting.
Andrew Nemore has been awesome on Shae this entire series
and obviously those two guys in history.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
He knows him really well. He's been awesome. But they
a lot of those.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Possessions late in the game when Shay started dominating, was
they were generating switches where Aaron Nee Smith would come
up and they would switch those and that's what the
matchup Shae wanted, and he would take advantage of Nie
Smith and who's an awesome defender too, but for some reason,
that's the better matchup for Shit, And it's kind of
just interesting to me when you go back to last series,
Nie Smith is the guy who really made brunts and
struggle and then what they would do was that they

(49:03):
would want the matchup against Andrew Nemhor and Nemhart and
he would dominate those matchups against Demhore. So it's kind
of interesting to me have certain defenders are better against
certain guys like jaylen Brunson and Shaye Gilgers Alexander, both
guys who want to get to the free throw line,
similar physicalities they play with. But for some reason, Andrew
Nemward is the guy who's had more success on Shae

(49:24):
and last syeraries it was nickni Smith who has more
success on Sha.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
So those are always interested in me those matchups.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, it is for this specific example here, I think
I like attribute it to both Shae and Nemhart being
Canadians that have spent some time playing with each other
in the Olympics and or teammates in the previous Olympics. Here,
I think like with Shay specifically, his biggest asset is
like his movement and his stop star and just how
like slithery he is that you kind of have to

(49:52):
have a familiarity with that, And I think Nemhart has
a little bit more of like had the chance to
go up against him in practice and see him up
close in person in a way that like that's been
the difference maker to me, Like he just feels more
comfortable as Shay gets into his little shaking bakes, and
more so than really any player I can think of
this season that like, there is this guess work as
a defender when you're matched up in a one on

(50:13):
one spot, that it feels like nem Hart is pretty
on top of it.

Speaker 4 (50:16):
So I think I attributed to that in this specific case.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
But it's pretty fascinating that that that principle you just
brought up does apply across the board. That there are
guys who will take very good defenders and say, nope,
I love this matchup in the same way the guys
that we don't think of his high level defenders who
will create some havoc against them.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
Yeah, I definitely think the history history plays a huge
role between those two guys.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
All right, let's move on.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
Wait did you get Oh yeah, you gave your prediction.
You believe the I'm going Pacers straight up tonight. I'm
definitely in on the plus nine and a half. I
think they went out right here every single game this series.
Uh yes, no, not game two, not Game two, Okay,
I think I've picked the Thunder every single game in
this series, so I guess I'm two and two.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
But the Spacer's team that does have my ultimate respect,
I think it will go seven. I'll say how tonight
plays out, assuming that the Thunder win, it could go six,
but I think it'll ultimately go seven with Thunder win
and seven, which is just awesome if you get a
game seven NBA Finals. But so you're on the Pacers night,
I'm on the Thunder, but I like the Pacers with
the points all on that plus nine.

Speaker 4 (51:16):
And a half.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
All right, there's still more offseason news to get to,
so let's move on here. We got KD and Giannis
and then some Knixt coaching stuff to talk about. But
let's start with Kevin Durant because he seems like the
guy who's gonna be traded in the next ten days
at the minimum, because the Draft is ten days away
at this point, that seems like we'll be traded by
the draft. Seams gave me a little teaser on ten
to twenty. I believe it was around Saturday night. Obviously,

(51:37):
have Sham's notifications on as we all do. Gives gives
me a ten to twenty, which I expected, honestly, was
fully anticipating this to just break in the middle of
night Saturday night, kind of like the Luca trade. And
I get the notification from Shams and it says something
about like KD and trade, but it's just the three
destinations that are most likely. It's like, you really have
to put this out of ten twenty a night. When

(51:58):
everyone gets a notification, they're assuming Katie's on the move.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
But what it said was that there's.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
Three teams who Katie is interested in and are interested
in him, and that's the Miami Heat, the San Antonio Spurs,
and the Houston Rockets. On the odds right now, based
on Katie's next team, the Timberwolves are actually still the favorite,
so they're plus one eighty the Heat or plus three
hundred Rockets plus three fifty Spurs plus three fifty. The

(52:24):
Timberlves are an interesting conversation because I still think they're
in the mix, even though Shams didn't actually identify them
as one of those teams. Let's start with this, where
do you use These are two different questions in terms
of where you want to see him go and where
do you actually think he ends up. So both of those.
I'm presenting them both to you. Where do you want
to see him? But where do you actually think he goes?
They might be the same thing.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
Yeah, Lucky for me, they are the same thing, and
the Houston Rockets will continue to be my answer here
as far as like from it makes sense conversation to me, Like,
I don't think anybody I don't know how many can't
walk away from this playoffs and think that team needs
to go to score or a crunch time guy that
what it is, a clib can just get a bucket.
However you feel about Jalen Green, I don't think he's
gonna be that. Even as high as I am on

(53:05):
a guy like Aman Thompson, I don't see well where
he quite grows into that. Jabari Smith is a dude
who I like's Taria Easton love him as a player.
None of these guys or dudes that I think are
taking that step into being like a go to score
in the way that this team needs. They've got a
ton of young talent that I think should all appeal
to this Phoenix Suns teams that you can start to
build that package up and then the draft capitol is

(53:27):
a clear advantage that no other team has that Houston
having possession of Phoenix's future picks, giving them a chance
to regain control of those, I think would just set
them up in a better spot as an organization moving forward,
where you know you're not as back against the wall
we have to contend every year the way that it's
currently the case there. So I think it makes sense
for the Rockets to take that type of sway to

(53:48):
put yourself in the mix for the true Western Conference contenders.
I think they have the assets to get it done,
and I think Phoenix should be looking at their package
the most favorably because of that draft pick aspect there.
So Kevin Durant is my preferred destination for Canary or
the Rockets are my preferred destination for kevinar and that
is ultimately where I think he will add.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
The Rockets are an interesting one because there's still the
honest factor lurking sure, And if you're the Rockets, you'd
rather have Yiannis than than KD.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
That's a no brainer.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
You are gonna have to give up a bunch of
assets for KD that you could potentially use in the
honest tree. And I get from the Rockets perspective, like,
all right, Giannis might actually be staying this season, but
will he be staying by the deadline? Will he be
staying next summer? Like there's still they honest thing lurking
out there, which is why it's a really it's not
just the Rockets. There's a lot of teams that are
in this predicament. But based on the Rockets offer and

(54:37):
their assets, they have to ask themselves this really tough
question of are we going to sacrifice assets for KD
that we could potentially use on y?

Speaker 1 (54:45):
Honest, I don't think KD is gonna take nearly what
it costs to get honest rightfully, So I'm both.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
Definitely not, but you're still it's gonna be allowed those
overlap of what teams are gonna want.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
Sure, but if we're talking like like Jalen Green the
tenth pick and Bari Smith, like the Rockets should do
that right now.

Speaker 3 (55:02):
So that that was my next question. So you think
Katie's value is that low? Like that happens, Katy is
a really low trade value and the Sons are not
going to command them a lot from him, So.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
It for starter, he's gonna be thirty seven next year.
He's going into the final year of his contract, So
there's very much a world where he can just walk
away at.

Speaker 4 (55:19):
The end of this like he's going to be.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
He will return less in a trade than what Desmond
Bane was yesterday.

Speaker 4 (55:24):
Pretty much no doubt in my mind that that's the case.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
That has to do with age, that has to do
with the contract far more than it has to do
with the caliber of player he is. Kevin Ran is
still a very useful and very effective basketball player. But
I think when you factor in the age and the
contract that I don't think any team is going to
be bending over backwards to empty their assets without the
guarantee that he's sticking around for the long haul.

Speaker 4 (55:43):
And what even is the long haul at this age.

Speaker 3 (55:46):
Yeah, there's three or four teams that have that he's
identified as places he wants to go, and what that
means is wherever he ends up between those teams, he's
signing that he's eligible for a two year I believe
one hundred and twelve or maybe one hundred and twenty contra.

Speaker 4 (55:59):
Yeah, like sixty million dollars you're signing up to pay this.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
Team anyway football.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
But my point is that he's signing that extension immediately
when he goes to this new location, assuming it's one
of the ones that that he's identified, but he identifies
those because between back channels that they're not making that
trade unless they know they have that commitment from KD
for So that'll be three years, so let's say, and
I'll probably take him to the end of his career.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Honestly, this will probably be his last, not three years.

Speaker 3 (56:24):
So I'm with you where it's like the market isn't
that big number one because the Suns need to move
on from him. It's like they need to get off
that contract. It obviously just didn't work after the last
two seasons, so they don't have a lot of leverage
in the situation.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
Well, Kevin Durant does have the leverage because of.

Speaker 3 (56:37):
That that expiring deal and that extension that he has,
but like, that's still not a lot. When you said
Jalen Green the tenth pick, and who was the other guy,
Jabari Smith? Jabari Smith. So I actually liked that hole
because I like Jobori Smith a lot. So I like
that hole for the Suns. But you're probably right where
it's gonna be around that. I think the heat or
an interesting team where it's like they're also in this

(56:57):
window similar to the Magic. They have a very short
runway here and they see the East as wide open.
They're not a contender at all next season. You bring
kad around in a week in the East with with
that system and that coach, they're gonna believe that they
can actually contend in the East next year and at
least for the next couple of years with Tyler Hero
the jump he took last year, especially playing more point guard,
and of course Bamana Bayo and some of the young

(57:19):
pieces that they believe will develop properly.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
You're not sold on the Heat.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
Well, you just mentioned all those guys, Then what are
they trading to bring in Kevin Durant Uh.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
It's it's a good question, Like they don't probably don't
want to trade where because he had a pretty good
year last year.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
But that's crazy right there, Like if that's our starting
point that khalil Ware is off limits, then you don't
really want Kevin Durant.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Well, but I think it probably would be willing to
put where.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
I'm just saying it because like he is a future
piece for them, they probably would be willing to put
wear in the deal. Hamiakez obviously will be in that
deal probably, and he had not a great year last year,
but he showed flash as a rookie.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
The thing is when when you're looking at the heat's perspective.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
Pat Riley's an old dude, like he's pat is very
much he has in terms of his life and his
career probably has like a two or three year window
where that guy wants to that guy wants to compete
right now for championships and he's gonna make some rash
decisions where he's will sacrifice the future probably like this
team is in. They're going to take the win now approach. Well,
they could depart from where and maybe some of their

(58:20):
future picks. But the thing is where the Timberwolves are
a really interesting team because I think they're gonna have
the most to give up, But I don't know if
if I with them, I would sacrifice everything they can
give up. Like the Suns won a center that's been known.
They'll probably want Rudy Gobert, They're gonna wint Dante DiVincenzo.
They'll want Mike Conley probably who had a really bad
year last year. And you have Rob Dillingham coming in

(58:42):
as a young guy, so the Wolves might be fine
with that, but.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
That's still a decent amount to give up for Kevin Durant.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
And another factor is Kevin Durant didn't that wasn't one
of the three teams that Sean's identified that Katie said
he wants to go to. This guy cares about lifestyle
and happiness. He's been unhappy a lot of plays. I
love KD as a player. I love that he's always
on social media, especially the last couple of weeks, is
barking at people, ganging the fights. The guy just loves,
He genuinely loves who. He also cares about his happiness.

(59:10):
He went to New York and then Phoenix, two places
Brooklyn technically, but same thing, two places where you.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Would think he could be happy.

Speaker 3 (59:18):
Going back to Texas it will be obviously he's from there,
so that would be good for him. Those state tax
warm weather, all that stuff. And then same with Miami.
Everyone's happy in Miami. Going to Minnesota might not be
as happy as a destination. He might not love going
to spend the next three years of his life in Minnesota.
So I think there was probably a reason that they
weren't identified, even though they probably have the most to

(59:40):
give up in or excuse me, that the Sons would
actually want in a potential deal.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
Yeah, there's roughly one hundred and eighty million reasons why
he can suck it up and be okay with living
in Minnesota if that's what the trade is.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
Clearly in his life, though, money is the happiness, and
even championships with the Warriors did not provide happiness. So
I don't know what does for him, but he hasn't
been happy a lot of these last few destinations.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
I am surprised the Anthony Edwards thing is not like
a super appealing factor to Durant, Like I thought the
second that like there was this beginning buzz for Minnesota
that Durant would look at playing with Ant as like
an awesome and and sort of a similar way to
how with Lebron we're seeing, like the passing of the
baton to Luca, how that's gonna be like the next
transgression of this Lakers team is seeing how like that,

(01:00:27):
how much responsibility these guys are passed down. I could
see aware where there's the Kevin Durant and Anthony Edwards.
This is how we just absolutely assassinate people on a
basketball court of being one of the most electric scorers
ever and kind of see that transpire. I'm surprised that
that doesn't seem to be more of a factor of
motivating Durant to get to Minnesota.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
I've been workshopping Lebron take and trade for weeks now,
really since the Lakers season ended, which when we go
to our full off season stuff, we.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
Talked about some other stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
I will fully pitch you on, but uh, if I'm
the Lakers, I would not want Rono my roster next year.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
But that's conversation for a different day.

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
The Spurs are the other team we talked about the
Rockets Wolves. He Spurs are the other team where I
think that's a perfect fit, where he's a guy who
a reliable scorer. Obviously we know what Katie is as
a player, but they have a lot a great young core.
They're gonna need that veteran scoring presidence, that clutch scoring
presidence where he's gonna he'll have the ability to play
off the ball a lot with Stefan Castle and Darren

(01:01:24):
Fox and of course hit Pairing KD with Wemby would
be monstrous defensively. The problem is, what are the Spurs
actually willing to give up because it's not Stefan Castle,
just one rookie of the year. They just traded for
Darren Fox, and they're really gonna trade him. Obviously, Wemby
isn't untouchable, like they need three point shooting. When your
back quart is defon Castle and Darren Fox, you need
three point shooting. Devin Vessel is a guy who's not

(01:01:46):
a great three point shooter, but he's had years where
he shot thirty seven thirty eight percent from three, which
is really good, so he's capable of becoming a good shooter.
You still have Harrison Barnes on that team, So what
are you actually willing to depart or give up if
you're the Spurs.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
And it's probably not that much.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
So if the market really sours for KD and it
becomes his value is that low, then yeah, sure, then
the Spurs might get in the mix. But other than that,
I can't see them being a serious team because just
because of they don't have a lot to give up.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
I think the trade probably would look like Harrison Barnes,
Keldon Johnson and a couple first round picks probably two
first round picks would be my guest.

Speaker 4 (01:02:24):
From a san Antonio perspective, I.

Speaker 3 (01:02:25):
Don't think the Rockets and the Wolves are two teams
that could match that or give the Sons a better offer.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
I agree, but I feel more passionately from the Spurs
perspective of why they should be patient that I don't
think adding like for the Rockets in the same way
that we just use this Desmond Bane comparison that I
see like the clear fit for need for what Kevin
Durant provides to what that team should be targeting. I
don't really feel that way about the Spurs with Durant,
to be honest, yes he would be useful, Yes he
would improve their team. But Victor Remanyama incredibly young, Savon

(01:02:55):
Castle incredibly young. They have the second pick in the draft.
You have this core. I don't think bring in thirty
seven year old Kevin Durant accelerates you or jumps you
to the front of the contending line. At this point,
I would be patient with my assets, and Giannis is
a guy would be much more willing to take that
swing on. From san Antonio's perspective, would factory in the
fit a little bit younger all these other kind of
parts of the equation. So I'm not all in on

(01:03:17):
Kevin Durant from the Spurs perspective.

Speaker 3 (01:03:19):
If you bring in KD and you don't sacrifice that much,
the Spurs probably are top four or five team in
the West, are they? Like, would I trust them to
beat the Nuggets or the thunder who are still gonna
be around and some of these other teams that are
are still gonna be in the championship mix in the
West next year?

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Probably not.

Speaker 3 (01:03:37):
So I wouldn't make that move for like two years
of a really efficient, scoring and effective Kevin Durant and
who's still a good defender. But again, like he's the
guy who's dealt with some injuries, he's obviously going to
be thirty seven.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
So I'm with you, I wouldn't make that move.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
But if it's really by low spot and you don't
have to give up that much, like you only have
to give up Kelvin Johnson and a pick and Harrison Barnes,
I'd be willing to make that move because you're not
really giving up that much. But I think, like I
said this, Rockets will have a better offer and the
Spurs will have a better offer.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
If I had to guests right now, would still be
the Rockets.

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
But like I talked about earlier, they have so many
assets of picks and then just young players. When even
to talk about Reach Shepherd and Cam Whitmore, who should
be intriguing trade pieces and aren't even part of the
Rockets rotation right now. But when you talk about the
Rockets potentially trading for Kevin Durant, you still have the
honest factory lurking, which is something the Rockets, which is

(01:04:32):
obviously what they're thinking of right now, because they'd be
shocked if the Rockets just run this team back and
don't somehow improve with a KD or with a Giannis
next season.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
So I don't believe.

Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
Actually I don't really know if it's going to be
the Rockets, but that's something they have to figure out
where it's if you've been Giannis, isn't a possibility go
get KD because he's exactly what you need as a
reliable scorer who an offense that was really bad in
the clutch last year because they didn't have a go
to guy. So I believe that that the Rocket could
make that move, but it all depends on the aspective.

Speaker 4 (01:05:03):
Yeah, it does there.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
I to me like I think Houston should take the
swing for Durant from the fit perspective, and I like
for san Antonio, I'm not willing to take that same
level of get to the table and make a monstrous
offer that I think san Antonio should be more patient
in their approach. Houston is a little bit more in
like the win now perspective to me, and like the
fit is much more clear. So while I get waiting
for Giannis back to the beggars, can't be choosers. Man,

(01:05:26):
you have a Kevin Durant right in front of you
wanting to join your team and commit for the next
couple of years, you go make that trade, make it happen,
and give yourself a chance to share.

Speaker 4 (01:05:35):
If I'm the Houston Rockets, That's how I feel.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
Yeah, with two seats, So I'm with you. They're right
there in terms of being a contending team. And they
just signed Steven Adams do an extension, one of the
best offensive rebounders in the league. And we saw the
Rockets best offense really against the Warriors down the stretch
of the season was just Steven Adams upper and Sengoon
double big lineup, those two guys crashing the offensive last
best rebounding offensive rebounding rate in the NBA. When those

(01:05:59):
two guys are on the floortsgather, and they were just
creating extra possessions. And that was really the Rockets' best
offense because they couldn't generate much in the half court.
So we'll see what the Rockets do. We'll see what
a lot of teams do. Finishing up here. Before we
get out of here, let's talk about Giannis, because we
were just talking about them, and it's becoming increasingly likely
based on his social media posts and some of the
things he's saying referencing how he's gonna be with the

(01:06:20):
Bucks long term. Based on how the odds are moving,
the Bucks are minus three p fifty to or excuse me,
Giannis's next team for next season. The Bucks are minus
three fifty. The Raptors are the mix of plus seven fifty.
Knicks are still in the mix of plus eight hundred
Spurs plus eight hundred Rockets plus two thousand. But it's
becoming increasingly likely that Giannis isn't gonna ask get and

(01:06:41):
isn't gonna stick around right now. Do you think when
late October rolls around next season, do you think Giannis
will still be a Buck?

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
I think I do, and I thought that was pretty
much zero percent chance coming into this offseason. Here, it
certainly feels like things are trending that direction. The reason
that I think why that is the case is this
week conference. I think Giannis and the Bucks look around
right now and say, like, is there a chance that
this dude has a playoff run where he just carries
us through the East And the answer that very well

(01:07:10):
could be yes. That Yanna's even at like no, no, no,
I mean where did Giannis is the best player in
the Eastern Conference? I think I'm with you on that
pretty clearly. I get he doesn't have a lot of help.
The Damian Lillard experience has not worked, and I don't
really have much optimism for him being like on the
Tatum pathway where I could see a world where he

(01:07:30):
comes back for the playoffs and makes a little bit
of an impact. Don't feel that way about Dame, and
I think we need to retire.

Speaker 4 (01:07:35):
That one a little bit. They're not a good spot
as a team.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
But I do just have that level of respect for
Giannis that I would give him a puncher's chance in
the Eastern Conference. If he can get there there there,
they will need a lot of things to go right.
But I think that sort of is the mindset that like,
we have at least a puncher's chance and an opportunity
to do some damage.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
I don't like. I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
I don't believe that Yannis is going to be moved,
But I also don't really understand why he wouldn't be moved,
not just from his perspective, from the Bucks perspective, And
I get it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
How are you.

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
Gonna trade a top three player in the NBA? What
is the Bucks path to contention? It does not exist.
What you're seeing now with these teams that have become
really deep contenders and these two teams playing in the finals,
the Pacers and the Thunder, you can't have any weak
links on your team.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Depth matters more than ever.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
It's not we're past the days of if you have
the best player on your team or in the league,
you're gonna be an instant contender.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
Your team and your help means more.

Speaker 3 (01:08:33):
Than anything, which I think actually goes into the championship
conversation where I don't think current guys legacies should be
judged on championships anymore because of just because of the
fact that you need a better team.

Speaker 4 (01:08:46):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
It's not just like one guy can carry guy who championships,
so it's like, oh, this guy won how many rings?
And this idea of ring culture carrying guys legacies, I
think is gonna go out the window pretty soon because
you're not seeing the best player in the league carry
teams championships anymore like you did in the two thousands
and twenty tens, even with Lebron and then of course
Kobe before Lebron and the step stuff and all that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
You're not seeing that anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
And that's why from Yannis's perspective and the Bucks perspective,
there's no path to contention like none.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
People are talking about this gap year.

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
It's not a gap year, it's I mean, gat four
or five years, and they want to say.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Path to contention for the Bucks.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
I mean, with all that you just said, they won
a championship what three years ago, like.

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
With Drew Holiday, a younger Drew Holiday, a Brook Lopez,
a completely different player, Chris Middleton.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
It's a completely different team.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
That whole team is different, sure, but it was Yannis
the guy then and it would be Yannis the guy
now that I like the the cream rising to the top. Here,
the mug got shorter in the Eastern Conference. Here that
there's not as like difficult a path that you're gonna
have to plow through in the Eastern Conference. It's not
like a great outlook. But I do think that Milwaukee

(01:09:52):
is gonna sit there and say whatever you may make
the case about what is our pathway to contention. Trading
Giannis on to the Cumbo is certainly a step away
from that is the way that they probably view it here.

Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
You're right about death. It's not gonna be easy.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
But I think like Giannis has enough self confidence and
could correctly like be accurate here that I'm a clear
cut best player in this conference. I can be a
guy that just is twenty seventeen Lebron or whatever the
case may be, and just put it on my back
and be that guy.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
See if Yannis stays, I think it's him saying number one,
he's he's staying his entire career in Giannis, excuse me,
in Milwaukee, he's committing to loyalty, which is admirable, and
you have to respect some degree where a lot of
guys are chasing rings, so he's committing to loyalty, but
it's saying he's acknowledging that they're not going to compete

(01:10:41):
for the next couple of years, and he's hoping the
front office can figure it out and probably had to
lay out a plan for him if he's going to
stay that this is he's finishing his entire career, so
maybe in the back half of his prime will have
an opportunity to because number one, they don't control any
of their picks for the rest of this deck, right
they don't have a lot of young players who you
should be optimistic about that you could build around. Damian

(01:11:01):
Liller will never be the same player ever again. He's
an older guy coming off in Achilles who relies on
his explosiveness and burst to create space.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
And all that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
He's never gonna be the same guy. He could be
maybe a version of it if he sits all next season.
He will never be an all star level player again.
So when you look at from a Gianni's perspective, he's
he's gonna say, I'm not taking a gap year, I'm
taking a few gap years, Like this isn't one season
where the Bucks will become contenders by twenty twenty six,
twenty seven. This is a few years where he's gonna

(01:11:31):
be in an all time level. He's still gonna be
a top three player in the league. He's in his prime,
but he's hoping the Bucks can figure it out. And
the kind of the blueprint for this is is actually
the Lakers and Kobe in the two thousands, in the
post Shack era, really from two thousand and four to
two thousand and seven. The Lakers when they when they
got rid of Shack, were not a good team. They
missed the playoffs one year and then they made they

(01:11:51):
were first round exits the two years after that, before two.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
Thousand and eight came around, and of course they made
the finals three straight years.

Speaker 3 (01:11:57):
But that was Kobe's prime. That was dead Smack in
the Middle's prime. He actually won an MVP in there,
but they weren't contenders. It was this gap of three
years from from two thousand and four to two thousand
and seven where they weren't contenders but Kobe, and of
course Kobe was considering the same stuff happened with Kobe
where he was considering doing making a trade or excuse me,
requesting a trade and asking out of La, and apparently

(01:12:19):
reports when you go back to those he was pretty
close to being moved at some point, but he.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
Stuck it out in La.

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):
La stuck it out with him, and they both each
side was rewarded because they made three straight championships and
won two more in two thousand and nine and twenty ten.
Of course, so that's kind of the blueprint for this
where it's like, this isn't going to be one year
and the Bucks will become contenders again if Yanna.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
Sticks this out.

Speaker 3 (01:12:41):
This is a three or four year roadmap where they
need to draft really well.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
They need to see they need to.

Speaker 3 (01:12:46):
Somehow acquire talent and good young talent, even though it's
hard to imagine them doing that because they don't have
a lot of good young pieces right now, and they
don't they don't control their picks for the rest of
this decade, so it's hard to imagine the scenario where
the Bucks become contenders.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
But that's the that Janis would be staying.

Speaker 3 (01:13:01):
It's saying, I'm gonna go down this this Kobe Lakers path,
and I have complete confidence in my front office, and
who knows if will play off, But I'd respect it,
like there's no there's no reason I wouldn't respect it.

Speaker 4 (01:13:11):
I think you're underseelling Giannis a little bit. Still.

Speaker 1 (01:13:14):
I think it kind of doesn't matter who the other
four guys are, and that's still gonna be an above
five hundred basketball team that has it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
Yes, they're not gonna be bad, but they're not gonna
be above a first round exit.

Speaker 1 (01:13:23):
I it depends on the matchup here like that, Jannis
could Yannis himself, regardless of the other four guys in
the court, can beat teams in playoffs series like if
it is.

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
The like we just so, we just sold with Dean,
Like with Dean this season he obviously damed, if hurt whatever,
But they weren't that good with Dean.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
They just weren't.

Speaker 4 (01:13:40):
Yeah, and Doc River is another another factory.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
He's not going anywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:13:44):
Yeah, I mean, maybe the next one requests to interview him.
Gotta see one go through the hoop at some point,
I might as well to send the request out there.

Speaker 3 (01:13:52):
So we're both on the same page that we both
think Giannis will be a buck by the Star next season.

Speaker 4 (01:13:56):
I think so.

Speaker 1 (01:13:57):
I don't love it. I would prefer that he was
the hot name of the market that does get traded.
But I do agree with you all momentum as trending
towards him remaining.

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
I respect the loyalty. I respect the loyalty by him.

Speaker 3 (01:14:06):
Like a lot of people, you can't really kill him
for doing that, even when you killed guys. Last two decades,
everyone has killed guys who who have jumped ship and
gone chasing rings. So I respect the loyalty. And Giannis
is that type of guy where he would make that move.
So I'm with you where it does seem like things
are trending in the other direction. Everyone thought it was
a fourgone conclusion he was gonna be traded. Now it
seems like he'll be staying Milwaukee.

Speaker 4 (01:14:26):
All right.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
Before we get out of here two minutes, who do
you think will be the next next head coach? And
do you want to just take an opportunity to clown
the nixt as you love to do.

Speaker 1 (01:14:34):
Yeah, I mean it is very funny to me that
the New York Knicks or the dude at the bar
just running around saying, hey, you want to come with
home with me?

Speaker 4 (01:14:41):
You want to come home with me?

Speaker 1 (01:14:42):
Just asking everyone in the room here, including ones that
are directly already partnered up that are all other organization.
I've never quite seen this approach from a basketball team before. Ultimately,
I still think that they have plenty of good options
to end up with a head coach. Michael Malone's been mentioned,
Taylor Jenkins we talked about quite a bit. I think
my prediction is Mike Brown. That that's my feeling at

(01:15:03):
this point. I do think if the Johnny Bryant momentum
was true, that that probably would have happened already or
there at least would be more tangible steps towards getting there.
I think they can clean it up from a pr
perspective that this was always our plan if Johnny Briant
is the higher, But I think Mike Brown is gonna
be the guy.

Speaker 4 (01:15:17):
That is my prediction of this current point.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
I like him.

Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
I think he got a really wrong rep and bad
hand in Sacramento being fired when he was, which was
this season and doesn't even feel like it felt like
forever ago.

Speaker 4 (01:15:28):
At this point.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
He's also had success with the Cavaliers, got good energy.
He's sort of a contrast from Thibs from a personality standpoint,
which I think is pretty important to them and a
guy that like can just get the job done as
a head coach. So Mike Brown would be my prediction here,
and I honestly think that would be a pretty solid
signing to.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
Use your analogy to defend the Knicks a little bit.
If you're at the boar and the best crop of
talent all is in relationships, why not still pursue that
and see if they're not happy in the relationships and
maybe they don't out of the relationships, and once they
if if they say, oh, maybe I'm not happy my relationship,
then you pursue a little further. They say no, I'm

(01:16:05):
happy my relationship. Then you go into the next crop
of talent that maybe is not taken and not already
in a partnership.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
Why not take that approach.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
Shooter to shoot, shooters, do shoot here, Just stick in
this exact same comparison here. The problem is the Knicks
are that dude who thinks he's the absolute man when
he's not. Like, the Knicks have this allure of people
are gonna just bend over backwards to coach in New
York and coach this team that is coming off his
best season in twenty five years, which, by the way,
they fired the coach who led that team to the

(01:16:33):
best season in twenty five years. And I think this
like this just build up of self belief of where
the New York Knicks, so people are just gonna want
to come here. It's just straight up false and I
think that we're seeing.

Speaker 3 (01:16:43):
This that's fair, But it's the old saying if you
shoot for the moon, if you miss, you'll land among
the stars, and that's kind of the approach that the
Knicks are taking. Some of the requests are kind of
just weird. It's like, why you've been requesting, especially you
can go back channel to find out if they're really
interested and if they're not interested, don't request. But they
have me fine tampering in the past, so maybe they
want to avoid that. The Jason Kids stuff I thought

(01:17:03):
was legitimate because Jason Kidd, we know, has not always
been happy with that ownership in that front office and
with everything that happened this season, trading Luca, strutting him
out there to be the spokespasion for them and just
get killed. So I thought there was legitimacy there. Obviously,
it seems like that that's not happening. I think it'll be
Mike Brown or Taylor Jenkins, both really good coaches, both

(01:17:24):
got raw deals with their respective franchises. And again, the
coach matter only matters so much. The roster is so
much more important. I think the Knicks have some work
to do with that, but I agree with you. Could
be Mike Brown, that would be a great option. Could
be Taylor Jenkins, but it's pretty clear they want a
guy who has coed coaching experience because they're very familiar
with Johnny Bryant and obviously they're not too interested in
him at this point. So I got Mike Brown or

(01:17:46):
Taylor Jenkins, which seemed to be the favorite, and both
guys are being interviewed this week.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
Yeah, Shooper to the stars and he might end up
with Billy Donovan.

Speaker 3 (01:17:54):
Not a bad coach, not a bad cause the bull
Bowser's disastrous organization.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
Two time national champion in Florida back to back. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
Third longest inured head coach in the NBA. Pretty's been
five years. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
All right, well everyone, thanks for listening. This has been
picks and Roll.

Speaker 3 (01:18:11):
Sean Bernard here, Sean Bernard and Sam Austrey here on
Fox Sports at the Gambler and iHeartRadio and we'll talk
to you next time.