Ep. 92: What the Thunder Winning the NBA Finals Means for the League, NBA Draft Talk - 06/23/25 - Picks & Roll with Sean Barnard

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Number one on your car radio preset hand the new
and improved Diehard Radio, WAYES and WD two seven Bring
d Philadelphia Ice, Fox Sports Radio.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
The Gambler the Oklahoma City Thunder are officially NBA Champion.
Shay Gildis Alexander has been crowned Finals MVP, putting a
cap on one of the greatest individual seasons of all time,
a scoring title, a unanimous All NBA First Team in MVP,
leading to the team to the most wins in the NBA,
and capping it off with a championship and Finals MVP himself.

(00:30):
They escaped one of the most Brazilian teams I've ever
seen in this Indiana Pacers team, one of the most
unstoppable offenses I've ever seen in that specifically referring to
TJ McConnell attacking the paint there. It wasn't the game
seven that I think we all hope for Sam Austrey,
But myself and Sam are here to break things down here.
So Sam, my opening question to you off the bat
here is give the Thunder your I'll let you take

(00:53):
the floor and give the Thunder their flowers. Because before
we dive into a bunch of other things, I do
think we should lead with that.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yeah, I agree, and I'm glad because obviously it wasn't
the Game seven we all hoped, and that just was
because of Tyres Haliburn's injury that that happened in the
first quarter, which is just brutal. I mean, there's just
no way around it. Just absolutely sucks for him what
he was able to do this season and this postseason,
to carry this team one win away from an NBA champion,

(01:19):
the most unlikely champion they would have been in probably
NBA history. Just an improbable run and Tyres Saliburn was
at the center of it. And just to see him
play through a calf injury, where that risk is always there.
We saw it with Kevin Durant in twenty nineteen where
he came back from CAF injury. In his first game
back from CAF injury in those NBA Finals against the Raptors,

(01:42):
he tore his achilles. So there's always the possibility of
that when you're playing on a cap stream. But credit
to Tyres Saliburn for gutting it through, and it's just brutal.
It's just sad. It sucks. Obviously, his next season is
completely cooked, which means the Pacers next season is completely cooked.
And we'll get into what that means for the East.
Before we do all of that, and we talk about
this Pacers team and what this means. I don't want

(02:03):
to hear any asterisk. I don't want to hear anything
about this Thunder group, because this Thunder team earned this
NBA total. We're not just talking about a young NBA
championship team. We're talking about a group that historically statistically
is up there with one of the best champions of
all time among all champions third best defensive rating relative

(02:27):
to the rest of the league, behind the four Pistons
and the twenty seventeen Warriors, and then it was the
twenty twenty five Oklahoma City Thunder. This team was that
great defensively. As a team, their net rating during the
regular season was the second best in NBA history, only
to the nineteen ninety five ninety six Chicago Bulls. When
you look at all the statistics, sixty eight wins, everything

(02:49):
they were able to accomplish, shake Gibs Alexander becoming the
first player in twenty five years to win the scoring title,
regular season MVP and Finals MVP. Everything they were able
to accomplish individually. As a collective, this is a dominant,
dominant champion. And yeah, they were taking the seven games
twice because they're young. And the last thing I want
to say about the Thunder is everyone's talking about how

(03:10):
improbable this Pacers run was the whole time, where like,
this Pacers run is improbable, they were underdogs, don't believe
in them, and yet all that's true, this Thunder run
is also improbable. Young teams, not just young teams, the
youngest team in the NBA, the youngest champion over forty years,
they don't win NBA championships. You need experience, you need

(03:33):
age and veteran presence, and they had some of that.
But teams were your second best players Jalen Williams in
his third NBA season, Your third best player is probably
Chet Holmgren in his second NBA season, And that young
don't win. Teams that young just don't win champions championships.
They just don't. So this is so improbable of a
run for how they were six years ago when they

(03:55):
weren't won the worst teams in the league. Two years ago,
they missed the playoffs entirely. How they rebuilt this group
from Kevin Durant, James Harden, and Russell Westbrook into this
team twelve years thirteen years later, an NBA championship group.
It's just an improbable run by that entire the entire
executive team, the entire coaching staff, all the players. This
is such an incredible, historic, unprecedented run for such a

(04:18):
young group, and they should be celebrated as such.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, it has been an absolutely masterful and artful roster construction.
Example from Sam Presty from start to finish that he
had his vision, he saw it through and he's obviously
accomplished it. And they're not done yet. But I think
the unique aspect of this Thunder team, or what I
think honestly deserves the most praise, is how they still
have so many moves that they can make or so
many directions that they can go as a franchise, so

(04:44):
many picks still accumulated, and they've just nailed their draft
process these past couple years, getting chet Holmgrin and Jalen Williams,
both guys that like Jaylen Williams in particular, even the
biggest Jaylen Williams believers. I don't think I ever could
have guessed he would have been this this quickly, and
getting is the guy that is the face of everything
like this team, Like you said, they missed the playoffs.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
Two years ago.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
They were forty and forty two below five hundred two
seasons ago. But here they are that they did things
on their timeline. They stacked days, they stacked and took
the steps. They did not rush the process here, and
they weren't a team that went too all in too quickly.
They still have plenty of directions they can go. I
totally agree there should be no asterisk over last night
that this was a championship, and it does feel like
a season to me that the NBA got it right,

(05:26):
that the best team in the league are the champions.
I think that's how we should remember this series to
an extent. But the thing I would push back a
little bit. I understand the defensive metrics, the numbers. Do
you really think this Thunder team is among like the
best NBA teams of all time?

Speaker 1 (05:42):
It's tough because look, when you go to some of
the best champions like twenty seventeen Warriors, the Bowls, some
of those Heat teams, some of those Kobe teams all
cook this Thunder. Some of the Spurs teams. Of course
those teams are better, but when when you actually it's
hard to know what this group will become and what
some of these individual players will become. Like we could
be looking at when we're NBA historians might be looking

(06:03):
at this in thirty years down the line and say, oh,
that was Jayleen Williams's beginning. Yeah, Jill Williams became one
of the top thirty players in NBA history, Shay Gills,
Alexander won a couple more MVPs. How do we look
at him in terms of his NBA ranking in history?
Ched Holmgren, all these guys and so yeah, like on paper,
I don't think certainly not right now, because because of
their accolades, they're not close to those guys. What they

(06:24):
might become is different, because Jayleen Williams has't even hit
his peak or is his prime, not even close to it.
Same with Chet, I don't even know if Shay's necessarily
hit his prime. He's not even not even twenty seven
years old yet. And that's crazy to say about the
guy who just won the regular season MVP and finals MVP.
So when we look back on paper, it probably will
be like Oh, this championship team that couldn't compare with

(06:44):
them at all. But then you look at the statistical
measures and it's the defense, Like this defense was so
historically dominant. And I want to get to some of
the other stuff later, but this they couldn't. They weren't
a good three point shooting team. They kind of defied
what we knew about modern NBA offense because of how
much they played with with Shae Gills Alexander as an

(07:05):
isolation player and didn't rely on the three point efficiency
at all. They increased the three point volume. A three
point efficiency was way down if they were one of
the worst three point shooting teams in the playoffs, and
they were still able to do it because of historically
dominant defense. So I hope we all remember that and
that what it's gonna be with this thunder group is
their defense, and it was one of the greatest defense
in the history. So yeah, I don't think that the
best champion ever, but I do think they could. This

(07:27):
team as a unit, their defense could go to toe
to toe with some of these other dynastic runs that
we've seen, like the Spurs and the Lakers and a
lot of these Lebron teams.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, I think that's somewhat fair there as part, like
the defensive numbers don't lie, I won't lie. Like watching
this Thunder team throughout the playoff run, there is a
bit of a feeling to me of like Shake Gills,
Alexander is on a level that none of these other
guys are and that kind of implies to the entire
NBA to an extent, specifically on this like Thunder team,
Jayla Williams grew up in a way that I wasn't

(07:57):
sure would be the case as quickly and chet Holmgrid
I really think only scratching the surface and what he's
gonna do with the ENDEA.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
He was so dominant defensively US night. He was bad
offensively the whole series, but defensively, this dude is unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Absolutely and he dominated that And shout out to him
for Like, if you want to circle back to last year,
which I do think it's unique, there weren't like these
playoff heartbreaks that they've had. That's probably the only thing
that I think is kind of an outlier for them.
But when you circle back to last year when they
were eliminated in the playoffs, one of the biggest current
concerns was chet Holmgren that he could not hold up
as the loan big man they brought in Isaiah Hartenstein
and who was certainly necessary in that Denver series which

(08:31):
ended up probably being their big challenge, although I will
circle back to Indiana certainly gave him a run for
their money by any means there, but Check grew up
and was able to be the guy this year. Now,
I guess to bring this into the Pacers conversation, we'll
start with before.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
We do that, before we do that. Last thing on
the Thunder is I was glad to see this team
won the title last night in the game seven based
on how they actually got here, which was the other
thing I remember about this the Stunner team is how
much they dominate the possession battle, Like this team never
turned the ball over. Number one in turnover eight meaning

(09:05):
they never turned the ball over as little as anyone
in the NBA and number one enforced turnover eight meaning
they constantly turned other teams over. And that's what happened
last night where the Pacers had twenty one turnovers and
they and the Thunders got out in transition, had so
many points in transition off of those turnovers and then
themselves they never turned the ball over, So how much

(09:25):
they dominate the possession battle was kind of the story
of this Thunder team all season and it showed up
in Game seven. And the other thing is they shot
twenty seven percent from from from three last night, Like
they were able to win games throughout these posts, throughout
these playoffs by shooting so poorly from three thirty three
percent from three in the entire playoffs. That was thirteen
among sixteen playoff teams. So this team, and we saw

(09:48):
it last year with Boston and everyone was complaining earlier
on this season, it's like, oh, the NBA, you you
shoot a million threes. That that's all the NBA is.
It is all full to watch. So it's a bad
product this and that and a bunch of bs that
people were spewing. And now you see a team that's
now had a good three point shooting team and that
struggled to meet threes and they were able to cap
off the NBA Championship. Meaning there's a lot of different
ways and play styles to win based on your personet.

Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, definitely right about that.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
They made two three pointers from one of the games
in these NBA finals, Like that does not happen in
today's NBA. Now we're not doing the asterisk. We're not
doing that. You have to, you know, put a little
mark next to this Thunder championship. But I do have
to ask Sam Austri if Tyrese Haliburn does not pop
his achilles in the first quarter, there are we talking
about this game differently last night?

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Well, of course we're talking about differently, like like who
am I? Who is anyone hit to sit here and
say the Pacers would have won? Like who knows? Like
Tyres Alburn started out the game really hot. He needs
three threes, which was pretty impressive talk. Yeah, and also
the thing about Tyres Haliburn is for him to maintain
his aggression offensively, and that means as a as a

(10:52):
passer and a scorer, he needs to score early. And
what you saw from him was was he was scoring early.
His three ball was falling. So I felt like this
was gonna be huge Haliburn scoring night. The Thunder would
have adjust adjusted defensively. He was not going to reign
in threes the whole night. I don't I don't know
who was gonna win the game. Of course we would
have talked about it differently because I think would have
been a much more competitive game. You saw when Tyre's
Haliburn went down. It's just the entire offense, Like Pascal

(11:16):
Siakam can't be the guy when there's when there's extra
defensive attention paid paid to him. The Pacers tried to
go small at one point where they sat Siakam for
a large shift because because the thunder applied so much
ball pressure and as good as TJ McConnell is, and
he just defies all basketball logic, he's not a guy
who can create the way Tyres Aliburn can. Like they
were weren't getting downhill, they weren't collapsing the defense. The

(11:39):
movement of when Tyres Haliburn will passed to a wing
and then set an all ball screen or cut immediately
like he's Curry. He's not the shooter Curry is, but
he's Curry like with his off ball movement, and then
that's what opens up this entire Pacers offense a lot
of the time. So without Tyres Aliburn there, like, they
just had no shots. Impressive, they were up one at
halftime even it just completely changed the dynamic of this team.

(12:00):
So yeah, of course the game would have been different,
like I see here and say the Pacers would have
won necessarily who knows, but of course would have been different.
It just sucks. That's the cruel part of sports.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, and you're absolutely right that.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
Like like for Haliverton specifically, the biggest frustration that I
think is legitimate with him is when he is too passive.
And I was so thrilled last night when he started
off that game, clearly locked in, clearly in attack mode.
Like I think the critique of him is he's never afraid.
He's certainly never afraid. He's shown that he takes big shots,
but he kind of like overthinks it to where I'm

(12:32):
trying to be team first, I'm trying to play make
too much, and that sometimes hurts the Pacers. Last night
that was not the case, and I did send out
an all time most curse tweet of literally two minutes before.
The exact way that it went down is after he
hit that third three going to commercials, puffin his chest,
talking trash. I was like, this is the tyres Halbert
I wanted to see, and I believe I tweeted out

(12:53):
this is the aggressive Tyrese Halvern that should have thunder
fans worried that calf looks fine dot Doug turns out due.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
Fine too, And it was the game six. The calf
looked finely, and obviously a lot of people were like, Okay,
maybe maybe maybe it's it's not as big of a
concern as the Pacers played up to be. But of
course obviously there was the strain there which which led
to the to the eventual achilles. So, yeah, it looks fine,
and he looked moving really well. But I guess that's
kind of what happens with CAF injuries, that you can

(13:21):
actually move well on them, but there is the possibility
where where you're more likely to rupture that achilles, which
we don't know for sure, but I think we're pretty
damn sure that's what he did.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, and obviously prayers about feel horrible for Tyrese. Albert
never want to see anybody go through this. I do
want to put a quick interjection here for all the
Tyrese haliburt and should not have played last night, or
the organization should have held him out.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
You're you're directing this at one person specifically, because I
only saw from one person.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
From John Jansen specifically you're talking about. I saw a
lot of it on the timeline, to be honest, I
saw a couple of different people running with it. And
this is where we've lost the plot here. Last night
was Game seven of the NBA Finals. I understand that
these guys have bright futures that you do have to
think of the long term, that like preventing and protecting
guy's career as matters now more than seve than ever.
But it's still Game seven of the NBA Finals, and

(14:07):
Tyres Haliburton was clearly willing to take that risk. I
guarantee once the dust settles and Tyrese Haliburton and settles
in that he would have done that ten times out
of ten. That there is something about this is what
you work for, These are the games that you play for.
I respect Tyre's Halburn for suiting up. I hate that
this happened to him, but that's just sort of the
brutal reality of sports.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
In my mind. Sometimes I think, like there was a
tweet a while ago that I saw that was very relatable.
It was like half of Twitter, half of social media,
is just people arguing about something that people aren't actually saying, yeah,
we're getting mad at that. So it's like, yeah, I'm
sure there were people out there saying that. It's just
it's just ridiculous, Like Tyr's Sliburn would play that in
that game seven if if he tore his achilles before

(14:48):
he would try to play that game seven. Of course
doctors wouldn't let him. But it's just it's there's nothing,
there's nothing that was gonna stop him from playing it
as a game seven, not just get back to a
game seven. But the Pacers aren't guaranteed even with Tyry
s Alburn healthy, to ever get back to the finals ever, right,
there was absolutely nothing that that could have stopped Tyrys
Aalburn from playing in the Pacers. You could say, oh,
it's in his best interest, and you know, you hope

(15:10):
he returns back to the same player. You have no idea.
He's pretty young, so he should but you have no idea.
And so of course theoretically doctors should help it or
should prevent him from risking his his his long term future,
but that's just not how this works. Like this is
Game seven of the NBA Finals. He was playing. The
Pacers should have let him play, which they did, of course,

(15:31):
and that's just the risk that he knew and everybody
knew that existed, and we were seeing more Achilles than ever,
like Damian Lillard this playoffs, Jason Tatum, this playoffs. We've
seen just over the last few years the Achilles injury,
and not just NBA but a lot of sports around
the around the league's achilles has become a really prominent
unfortune injury.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
And I wanted to ask about that specifically because for starters,
the number one thing that shifted to me is for
a lot of times, like the Achilles tear, in my mind,
was sort of viewed as like the death kiss of
someone's career. That this was guys hanging on at the
tail end when you are aging and in the later
years of his career where you pick up these we're
now seeing Tyres Alberton is what twenty four years old,
Jason Datum is twenty six years old? Like, these are

(16:11):
guys in the prome their athletic prime, in like the
middle of their best years.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
What is going on?

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Why is this there this increase?

Speaker 2 (16:19):
Do you have any sort of tell or feel this
is the best modern medicine we've ever received. These guys
have access to facilities and recovery programs and ways that
were never the case before. Why do you feel that
these are spiking and getting younger at age.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Well, so, with with the uptick of Achilles injuries, we've
also seen that, like you just said, people able to
recover from them better. Where two decades ago, an Achilles
injury was a death sentence for your career you could
not recover. For now we see Kevin Durant return as
a better player even post achilles, and that was on
the other side of thirty. So with that modern medicine
and all these advancements and everything, the Achilles injury is

(16:53):
not some death sense anymore. You can return from them.
To answer your question, why why they're that become more
prevent I'm not a doctor, I'm not a physical therapist.
I don't know exactly, but I have read about this
a lot, Like going back like six seven years ago,
people have talked about this and it's it's a much
broader conversation. But it's really specialization versus generalization, where guys

(17:14):
at a much younger age are specializing in certain sports
and not playing other sports. And this is something like
Kobe Bryant talks about all the time how important it
is to train your muscles by playing a bunch of
different sports. And there's a lot of other benefits to
mentally physically to playing growing up, playing a lot of sports,
of specializing in such a young age. But now with
au culture and how young guys are getting recruited and

(17:35):
possibility of nil and getting paid in high school, these
guys are these guys are playing strictly basketball or strictly
whatever their sport is. It's such a young age and
it's so much of it. It's constant four or five
games a day, six seven games throughout a weekend over
a two day span for these tournaments, and it's just
not good for your body. It's not like this is

(17:56):
what I've read. I mean, I don't know exactly, but
this is just what I've read from like real experts
people out of this stuff going back six seven years
where there's just been more injuries in the NBA. It's
just specialization. Specializing in one sport, specifically basketball at such
a young age and not training other muscles can lead
to kind of these strains. And I think that's a
real problem with youth sports. And and I don't know
if there's a fix, because it's kind of the culture

(18:18):
that you have to do where you have to be
playing basketball all the time if you're actually going to
succeed or have goals of playing professional sports. But it's
contributing to more injuries. So there's no easy fix. But
it's really that specialization versus generalization conversation.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of truth to that to
that there, I did start my collegiate career out as
if looking to become a physical therapist. Here I am
talking sports, so we all see how that went there.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
But I did write, like.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
You have some insight.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, I did write like a twenty page research paper
a lot about this, and it was in particular in
a slant to ACL tears, I told ICL So that
kind of hits home for me.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
So that was one that I've always had a little
bit of an interest for.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
They talked a lot about like artificial turf and things
like that, the specialized specialization versus generalization.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
You're absolutely right, that's a huge topic.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
But I also think sometimes like there is no clear
answer to this, and I think more so than anything,
just watch NBA basketball now, first NBA basketball back in
the day.

Speaker 3 (19:09):
I get that those guys.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
Played eighty two games, played a ton of minutes travel,
they didn't get rest days, they didn't get load management.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
But just watch the games in.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
Itself, just the way the guys cut the amount of motion,
the way that you get vertical block shots, like there
is just a level of I think these athletes pushing
their bodies at a greater rate than ever before that
it does require more athleticism, explosion, all those type of
things that I kind of think like this is I
don't want to say bodies fighting back, but they just
can't take as much.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
And there's such much better athletes too met and that
wasn't really the case back then. And part of that
is because of the training that you have to start
at such a young age. That's how they became. That's
how people have become better athletes. The resources, everything that
you have at your disposal, but it's they start training
at such a young age so they become better athletes.
And that that's good for the game. I mean, the

(19:56):
fast paced, the athleticism, everything that that's good for the game.
But also we see the downside where you're seeing increase
in injuries and to your point about how different the
game was. Well, my buddies is overseas right now and
he sent me a picture like he was at the
gym and on on his TV was the Heat Bobcats
from like twenty I think it was the twenty twelve season,
and with just something that we were talking about when

(20:17):
you watch these games, but this isn't two decades ago,
this isn't the nineties or two thousands. We're talking about
thirteen years ago. And something you see and you notice
is the spacing and the pace. It's just they played
so slow and there wasn't as much cutting that the
spacing they played with all of their actions start at
or below inside the three point arc, so there's such

(20:38):
little actions that you and that there's movements and these
cutting when you have such condensed spacing. So it's just
such a different game. And you don't have to move.
You didn't have to move as much back then, didn't
take as much athleticism. So there's so many different factors
that contribute to it. But the game is that off.
It's better off now when everyone is playing at a
faster pace, for sure, and you see that this heightened athleticism.

(21:00):
But again there are the downsides to what we're talking
about here.

Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent there.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
And I don't think there's really a way to just
fix this overnight or anything like this. And I don't
even know if there is a clear answer to all
these things. The game is gonna continue to advance. Body's
gonna have to keep up with this, and it's really unfortunately.
I feel horrible for tyrese Alburn because I do think
that he was ready to have a I mean, this
playoff run itself is more impressive than a ton of

(21:26):
like all time great NBA players have had, and I
do think that he was locked in and ready for
games have when he hit that last three and started
barking at the crowd, saying words that I can't say ever,
certainly not on this broadcast here, Like I like Sarry
Halvern is locked in and right the ball.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
So feel horrible for him.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's it just sucks. As
we were texting before the game, and like the anthem
the intros like this, this finally felt like the NBA's
moment that people have been just been killing them for ratings.
They don't they don't cover big events, and they don't.
They don't do things right in terms of promoting the events,
and this felt like a Game seven in the NBA Finals.
This felt like watching the pregame of the Super Bowl

(22:06):
and just the hype be leading up to it. I
was sweet, were taxing. I was so excited to watch
this game unfold, and then of course Haliburn's injury happens
and the completely takes the air out of the excitement.
And it was still a good game for most of
the first half. But then the thunder did with the
Thunder do and just locked in defensively, and they're deserved
NBA champions.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
Would you like to revisit any of your Tyres Haliburton takes.
I understand that the circums are a little tough on
both directions, but end thoughts.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
I've been saying it all all playoffs. I was wrong,
Like I I had him over rate. I thought he
was a very overrated player way before the players voted
in that and that player poll was a little fraudulent
in away, but I was saying Tyre's Halibn's an overrated
player going back to last postseason run where they benefited
from beating two teams who were very injured, and then
even this postseason run, those first two matchups against the

(22:54):
Bucks and the Cavs, two very injured groups that they beat.
Then they'd beat a healthy next team, and then they're
battling against the NBA's best team in the Thunder, taking
them to seven games. And that was because of everything
Tyre's Saliburn does. So I admit I was wrong. He's
completely earned my respect. I think people have gone way
too far. He's definitely not a superstore. He's definitely not
better than a lot of people. People have crowned him

(23:14):
being better than that. It's not better than Jaalen Brunson,
but that'll have to be a summer topic for us.
I don't even think he's close to better than jahn Brunson.
He's close, but he is he is. He's completely earned
my respect. He's probably a top fifteen player in the league.
He is a guy that you can build around with
the perfect team, the right roster. So all the credit

(23:34):
Tyres Aaliburn, because it wasn't it was him and the
Pacers groups went on some voodoo magic type run because
the clutch performances that we saw from this Pacers group,
specifically from Tyr's Sliburn hitting some of the most clutch
shots in every single series throughout this playoffs, which a
special and I don't know if we're ever going to
see a clutch run like that in NBA history ever again.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, no, it truly was special, and I wanted to
make sure we started with the Thunder for this this here.
But my real takeaway is I'm gonna remember the Indiana
Pacers more throughout when I think of these NBA Playoffs,
I will think of the Pacers more for the run
that they went on, the shots that they hit, the
fight that they put up, And like, I don't know,
I don't like that.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
I don't like that. I get it, I get it,
but I don't like it like this Thunder that that's
discounting this Thunders group's accomplishment. I get how special this
Platff run. Of course, were always gonna remember it from
the Pacers, But this that's discounting this thunders groups accomplishment
that won sixty games, that had the second best net
reading in NBA history, that that went to a game
seven twice and battled out this young group that just
found away time and time again when they had no

(24:31):
business doing it as the youngest champion in the last
forty years. You're right, I think it's discounting the Thunder.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
You're right, Like, I don't feel great about it, but
I did lay there last night and think, like, as
I reflect on these playoffs, like, what is my biggest takeaway?

Speaker 1 (24:44):
And it is the Pacers.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
And my next question I wanted to build off that
was like, this Thunder team is young, they're fun, they're youthful,
They've done things the right way. It felt like the
majority of the public, vast majority of the public or
Pacers fans last night, Why is this Thunder team not
resonated nationally in the way that I sort of like
automatically expected they would.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Well, First off, America loves an underdog story, so so
this Pacers group, Like I picked the Thunder and like
I was, I picked against the Pacers in every single series.
Obviously I was very wrong on three of them, and
I thought the okayc was gonna go, was gonna go
five or win in five. Everyone loves an underdog story.
And then just this, this Pacers group captured America's attention
because of some of their improbable wins and their comebacks

(25:28):
in game one to the Knicks in Game one to
the Thunder when they were down seven against the Bucks
with thirty something seconds to go. Same thing against the Cavs.
So that's how they captured America. And I was sitting
there and a part of me was rooting for the
Pacers too, like like, I'm rooting for the underdog too,
Like why shouldn't I root for the underdog this this
Pacers team will probably never be back in the spot.
This Thunder team should be back in this spot, So

(25:48):
I get it. I also think this Thunder group, they're
not young, or excuse me, they are young, and so
there's not a lot of experience and not a lot
of exposure a lot of these guys have had and
shake gild Alexander is an absolute souper star in terms
of basketball. There's no questioning that superstar faced the league type.
In terms of his personality, I don't think that that's

(26:09):
resonated on national stage. Part of it is could be
could be because he's playing in Oklahoma City, a smaller market.
Part of it because to really be like the face
of the league, the guys who've carried the league over
the last three four decades, you got to evoke emotion
one way or the other. Like people loved Kobe and
people despise Kobe, people love Lebron and people despise Lebron.

(26:31):
Like you have to evoke emotion as like the face
of the league type star and Shay Gils Alexander's the
good dude, quiet dude. A lot of people probably hadn't
even heard him speak before this playoff front. He's just
a good, quiet guy who puts his head down, puts
in the work, says the right thing. So when you
have a guy like that, who's not gonna, who's not
gonna like build headlines, And that's why I think people

(26:52):
want Anthony Edwards to be the face League, because he's
a guy who just says a bunch of wild stuff.
And he's a guy who just is gonna who's not
who's gonna be un filtered, and and he has some
off court stuff that people might not love him for.
So like Athony Edwards is a guy that evokes emotion
out of people, and and I think that's why people
want him to be the face of League. Shae is
such a much better player and as a player, he's

(27:14):
a superstar, but he doesn't necessarily have that appeal off
the court because he's just a good dude. Like there's
nothing bad you can say about Shaye, Like you can't
just hate on Shape because he's just a good dude
who handles his business the right way. And to be
the face League, I think you have to have both
sides where people love you and people hate you.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, I think that's an excellent point there.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Shay's got some Jason Tatum to his personality, like I
think those aura Yeah, Shae does for sure, Like Shay's
not quite to the level of corny as Tatum, and
and Shae's a better basketball player for sure as well.
I mean, dude's MVP Finals MVP champion has done all
these things, like they've done everything correct. It has been
strange to me that it has felt there's this undercurrent

(27:53):
of like anti Oklahoma City really this entire playoffs, which
has just been a bit surprising to me. So question
off that that I have from a the rest of
the NBA standpoint, which team do you take more away
from the Pacers going on this team oriented run sort
of in a different way than we've seen in recent years.
Or is the thunder who kind of embraced a more

(28:14):
traditional and obviously very successful rebuilt where they built from
the ground up, got the draft picks, have you know,
built out the way they have and have all this
future capital. From a roster construction standpoint, which of these
teams do you think is going to be more influential.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
I think it's both because both of them won with
their depth. Yeah, right, Like that's what we've seen throughout
these playoffs is yeah, you have to have ultimately one
of the best players in the league. One yet again
like Shakeos, Alexander's top three player in the league, and
who knows what would have happened with the Pacers, they
could have bucked that trend. But you have to have
a top five to eight to nine player in the

(28:48):
league to win the NBA Championship, and that rain true
again this year. But both these teams won because of
their death And it wasn't just about the star power.
It was, of course with the thunder the defense, but
the pace. More specifically, it was how what's your fourth
through eight look like? Well, what's your three through six
look like? And both those had no weak links, Like
these teams had no weak links on the roster. There
was no one on the thunder that you could target

(29:09):
defensively other than when Isaiah Joe Wason, but he was
benched a lot of this series because of that. The
same thing with the Pacers, like all those guys were
were capable, capable three point shooters and everyone could contribute.
There were no weak link links with this team. And
that's what we're saying. It's not just about your top
end talent, like like it was like in the two
thousand and ten it was Art who is the best
player in the league. Those guys are always gonna bee

(29:31):
for championships. It's now what does your fourth through seven
look like? What does your depth look like? And when
you have great depth and no weak links on this
roster or the stronger weak links you could say, then
you have a better chance of winning a title. I
think there's not that much to take away, like from
roster construction standpoint shore with the Pacers, I think this
was like an unbelievably improbable run from the Pacers that

(29:53):
it's not lucky. I'm not gonna call it lucky at all,
but like it's hard to replicate the magic that the
Pacers had with all these incredible comeback. So the relentlessness
when they just never quit and gave in. And you
could say it's a culture thing, and obviously both these
organizations have great cultures as we saw, but I just
think this was like a special Pacers group that had
some voodoo magic type stuff, and there's there's not that

(30:14):
much a takeaway like, yeah, let's replicate this Pacers run,
all right, but like, how are you gonna find the
relentlessness in your group to constantly come back and never
give in and quit when you have just when there's
like a less than one percent chance you have of
winning this game. I think it's just like a special run,
though we probably won't see again for a long time.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
I mean, the thing that I do think there is
to take is like Tyrese Haliburt and while he's not
in this upper echelon of players, this true, true superstarless
if you want to keep it super tight there, what
he does do is he plays his own brand of
basketball in a way that I think Indiana just did
a terrific job finding guys to compliment, like to use
an example here, like, I think that's the lesson is

(30:54):
just how well they built out around Halibert. And obviously
they traded to get him in the first place. Do
you think like the Charlotte Hornets could have found guys
to play LaMelo ball basketball and then that could be
successful and LaMelo has his own questions he's got to answer,
or do you think like guys like that, like I do,
wonder if that there's something too when you have a
unique basketball player who plays their own style like Halivernon

(31:14):
wants to get up tempo that he is this weird
blend of scoring and play making.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
I think there's other guys in the league that sort of.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
Fit that pocket that if you get the right compliments
you can make them no magic happen.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
I think I think that's true. I think that's that's
a great point. I don't like the LaMelo ball cop because.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
Slim halivern Man like I see they have.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
I mean, LaMelo Haliburn is more of a winning player
and a better shooter and all these things, but like
the way they see the game, Like I would probably
argue LaMelo is a better passer.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
LaMelo bowl is absurdly talented. I want to argue that
the difference is Tyre's Halliburn consistently makes the right play
in the right read mellow does not You're right. You
probably actually consistently makes the wrong read. But it's a
good point that it's like a lot of teams might
might look at, Okay, we have the right star. Doesn't
mean we're gonna have a top player in the league,
but we have the right star, and if we build

(32:04):
around him properly. And the Pacers did this by staying
under the luxury tax because there weren't some superstars they
had to pay a bazillion dollars to like, they stayed
under the luxury tax by building this team. And so
if you have the right star and you build around
him properly, and build around the margins and draft well
in themhard and niece Smith even though they did in
draft and the Smith they got from the Celtics. But
but those type of guys, and you make the right

(32:26):
trades for a Pascal Siaka when he becomes available from
the Raptors, then and you build around and Siakam even
that completely changed his game too, to build around Haliburn
and Halburn's play style. When Siakam was a guy who
really only operated in the half court. He was not
a guy that got out in transition. But you saw
him adjusted the Pacers playce style and he became a
really good transition player. So I think there is legitimacy

(32:46):
to that where it's like, let's let's get the right star.
Doesn't have to be a superstar, let's get the right
star and build around this guy. But like you always see,
like you've obviously listened to a million Darrel Mory's press conferences,
Daryl Morray always says this press conference, he's just at me,
is like, you have to have a top six playing
league or also have no chance to win. And that's
just what he's adamant that on that. I think that's
what most executives have taken from a team building approach,

(33:09):
like yeah, we need you have to have a top
six skuy in the league or else you're just not
gonna win a championship. And that rain true again with
with with the Thunder. But do you think now, like
a lot of teams are gonna say, Okay, maybe that's
not true. Like Morey's so stubborn he would never change
the approach, but maybe that's not true, Like we don't
need a top six guy in league. We mean the
right star for our play style and the compliment and
with the right pieces and build out with our depth,

(33:30):
Do you think that's the direction like a lot of
teams might go in now?

Speaker 2 (33:34):
I do to be honest that those are the two
lessons that I walk away from these postseason is Number one,
that I think the barrier for who is who can
be the best player on the championship team is probably
there's a couple more names on that list than I've
kind of expected. I think that list is a little
bit longer than I had initially expected. And the other
part that I really take away is depth means more
than ever across the regular season and the postseason now.

(33:56):
But neither of these teams were rosters that trim the
rotation down to seven guys or six guys. That these
were guys that had different counters depending on what other
teams were running. They could go big, they could go small,
they could pick up the pace, they could play an
all defensive lineup, burn an all three point lineup. That
like having different options on your team, I think is
really valuable. And I think that that was very clear.

(34:17):
So yeah, I think that's what I walk away as
my two takeaways. But I do think like when analyzing
the playoffs and how do I apply this other basketball team.
I do think I take more from this Pacers team
than Oklahoma City.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yeah, I mean, but both were a lot on their depth.
I think I think with the Thunder, and I brought
this point up earlier, is that there's no like it's
copcat league for sure. So like when the Celtics shooting
a million threes, it kind of sets the standard. A
lot of other teams start shooting a million threes, but
there's no one way to win the NBA Championship. We
talked about. The Thunder were a bad three point shooting
team throughout this playoffs. Thirteen out of sixteen eligible playoff teams,

(34:51):
they won it with their defense. So like it's it's
you building the right personnel, and it's defense wins championships.
Nico Harrison, everyone makes fun of him for that, and
I completely don't like I don't like Ni Garrison. I
don't think he's a good executive at all for many reasons.
But there is legitimacy to defense wins championships. But you
also have to have an MVP of the league, like
in Shay Gilders Alexander, So I think there's truth to

(35:14):
the fact that there's not one way to win championship anymore.
If you have a great defense and historically great defense,
and you have the right personnel where where you have
great rim protection, you have a chet home, you can
guard on the perimeter, you have just guys who are
just relentless with their ball pressure in lou Dord and
Alice Crusoe, and those guys can guard on the perimeter,
they can go on the post, like so much versatility defensively.
When you have that, you can win a championship that way.

(35:35):
You can also win a championship, like the Celtis said
last year, by being do or died from three and
just how they generate their threes through driving kick and
putting two on the ball and getting defense rotation, all
that stuff. So I think there's no formula to win
a championship right now. I think that's what you take
away from the thunder when you're looking at it around
the league. It's okay, we don't have to shoot a
million threes. That that's not necessarily doesn't have to be

(35:55):
our approach. We could do that, but we could get
a historically great defense, and that's what a thunderhead.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah, one hundred percent there and totally agree on that
there's no one blueprint to win. Every team has their
own identity and people should accept that now more than
ever you mentioned down in Dallas there, Nico Harrison, Is
there a chance that matt is Ishbia could pass Nico
Harrison is the worst basketball decision maker in the NBA.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, But the difference is Matt Ishpia is a freaking billionaire, sure,
so he can do whatever he wants. He you're own
a team, you can do whatever he wants. He didn't
get that job because of his basketball knowledge and expertise.
Nico Harrison presumably has a lot of basketball knowledge and expertise,
which is why he got that job. So that's the
only difference. There are so many stupid owners throughout the
NBA who just became really rich because of their parents

(36:41):
James Dolan or because of I don't know. They just
became really they became billionaires, so credit to them. So
they bought an NBA team even though they're absolute idiots
when it comes to making basketball decisions. So that's the difference. Like,
Nico Harrison has the ability to be fired, but Matt
Ishbia's boy, I guess it's a good transition. Let's get
into it.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Yeah, that is a good point about the billionaires there.
And I will say that if I ever magically stumble
upon a couple of billion dollars myself, I will be
purchasing an NBA team that would be right at the
top of my list.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Let's split a team if we ever, if we ever
come into that type of wealth, let's split the team.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Sign me up Sam by the team. Yeah, I would
be in for that. They can be the Seattle SuperSonics.
We can be wherever you want us at himself. I
would be gained for that part.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
Draft war room would be pretty heated though basically previous conversations.

Speaker 3 (37:25):
Definitely, and one we're going to finish up with here'd be.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Like the would be like the that Howie Roseman clip
where like Howie Roseman made a draft pick and then
he's tapping up his executives and the one executive a
few years ago was just furious. Yeahout the draft selection.
That's what our draft war war room would be like.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, that would be would be heated there. But the
Phoenix Suns, I think stick a fork in them. This
organization is over. They're done for a decade. I think
they let yesterday traded Kevin Durant to the Houston Rockets.
Love this trade from Houston's perspective, and I should have
the full details picked up. I know it was five
second round picks, the tenth overall pick, and this Jalen

(38:00):
Green as the real key part of this. They did
not get a Jabari Smith, a Reed Shepherd, a Cam Whitmore,
basically no youthful talent with Jalen Green as the primary piece.
Brooks guy and Dylan Brooks was the other guy. Yes,
I absolutely hate this for Phoenix. I don't think it
was enough for Kevin Durant. They did not get control
back of their future picks, and Houston I love taking
the swing. What were your initial impressions of the Kevin

(38:22):
Durant trade.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yeah, let's take it from the Houston perspective first. I mean,
just just a brilliant trade like that, an absolute textbook
perfect tree. Even if it doesn't work out necessarily, there
is no harm in making this treet to give up
the tenth pick. Whoever they went to draft for the
tenth pick was had no chance of seeing the NBA
court for at least the next couple of seasons because
about deep the the Rockets are. The Rockets had the

(38:43):
number three pick in the draft, drafted the best shooting
in the draft, Reed Shepherd, and he couldn't play it
all for them because of how much depth they have.
So they got rid of that number ten pick that
they were barely played.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Like they've had guys stashed for like two years now
that they just don't have.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
Lanes for exactly, so, so they didn't need that pick,
got rid of it. Jalen Green, he was their leading scorer.
So you look at it on paper like, oh, they
lost their leading scorer. My god. They did. They what
they should be cheering. They got rid of Jalen Green,
just one of the more inefficient players of the last
couple of seasons. So much talent, but so much inconsistency,
so inefficient, was awful, awful in his playoff debut, I believe,

(39:18):
averaged thirteen points on thirty seven percent shooting. Was just
a non factor. Times he was benched against the Warriors
in that first round. They should have gotten off of
Jalen Green, and they did, and they should be celebrating
it because he's just not not a winning player, not
a guy you want as one of your best players.
So they and Dylan Brooks. He he was a key
part for them, good veteran when they gave him that
contract a few years ago. He did his role of

(39:41):
being the defensive stopper and and a three point three
and D guy and be the veteran presence on a
youthful team. And that's what he did and he deserves
credit for that. But again, they have so much depth,
not a guy that they really need to keep around,
and they got Kevin Durant. Like the Rockets were, had
the second best in the West last year, but despite

(40:02):
not having a top ten offense in the clutch, their
clutch net rating was in the bottom half of the league.
Their clutch offensive rating bottom half of the league. That
was because they didn't have a go to option offensively,
they didn't have a fluid, reliable score Now they do,
and not just a fluid reliable scorer. One of the
most seamless, effortless efficient scorers over the last thirty years

(40:24):
in the NBA. Kevin Durant has been that good. And look,
he doesn't maybe he doesn't impact winning the way everyone
wants him to because they hold him to the standard
of like Lebron James. But I never thought that was
fair because he's not the same player that he is
when he's on a team that is ready to win now,
and he just you can PLoP him into any offensive
system because he's that efficient as a score from three
in mid range as a driver average twenty six percent,

(40:47):
excuse me, average twenty six points last year. I believe
forty three percent from three fifty two percent from the field.
So he's still such an efficient, good scorer. And he
doesn't have to be the leader. He doesn't have to
be like a leader tight when you have an Emmy
Udoka there who's a great culture builder and a great coach,
and he he is the ultimate players coach leader, so

(41:08):
you don't he doesn't have to be a leader type.
He doesn't have to be a guy that you have
to rely on like the Suns did a ton. So
I think it's just a perfect fit. The Rockets gave
up absolutely nothing of value to get to get this guy.
And again the big a big factor too is if
the Rockets Giannis isn't gonna become available over the next
couple of months. If he eventually does become available, maybe

(41:28):
it's a year from now. The Rockets did not forfeit
a lot of their assets like you talked about reachepher
Can went More, Jabari Smith, Tarry Eason, all these guys,
they didn't forfeit them. So if they want to put
a package together for Giannis and pair him with KD,
they can because they didn't really give up that much
at all to get Kevin Durant. And so it just
just an absolute theft by the Rockets and a great

(41:49):
job by their front office to stay patient and ultimately
get Kevin Durant.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
Yeah, no, one hundred percent there. I love taking the swing.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
I'm not sure how anybody could walk away from these
playoffs without the takeaway of that team, just as pertally
needs a go to score. And Jalen Green, well, I
think I'm still a little bit more open minded on
him than most that I do think the guy, like
the the top end talent is still too much for
me to fully punt on. The variants in his game
is just too strong for him to ever be looked
at as like a baseline foundational type of player there

(42:17):
that the highs are high, but the lows are low
with him, and he is.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Far too low, all right, there.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
Low, Yeah, they sure are there.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
So I from Phoenix, Like, I don't even think they're
a playoff team next year. I I don't. I think
they probably win thirty three thirty five games.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
And yeah, well I think they're gonna flip Jailing Green
Jalen Green and Devin Booker will not and for what
Like that's a good question, like the Yeah, I believe
he's get thirty three million next year. The Jaalen Green
market is not active. I don't know who would want him,
especially with that contract, and I believe it's an ascending
contract too, so it's go to be more and more
after after after this season. So I don't I don't know.

(42:55):
You're right, I don't know who would want him. But again,
I like the King, excuse me, the Sun wouldn't want them.
Maybe they keep him for the first half of the
year and then flip them by the deadline if he
increases his value. But that Devin Booker Jalen Green back
court just doesn't work like like they need like they
need there. Yeah, well they're gonna buy him that because
he just camp down the roster next season. If they
have to buy him out for that absurd price, they

(43:17):
will they just have to start over, which is the question,
like what do they even First off, they didn't even
get their picks back. That's what's crazy from the rock crazy.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
How can you if you're Phoenix, how can you not
walk away with at least like a Jabari Smith or
Cam Witmore, somebody you can talk yourself into. Yeah, like
that's probably, Like it felt clear cut to me that
would be the Rockets the whole time for Kevin Ray.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
But they didn't walk away with like remotely enough.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Now, granted, when you look around the league, like Miami
wouldn't even offer Hoimai hakkas for.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
This dude, Like, what are we doing here? I mean
the song I apparently would include yaka.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
I mean it does kind of show like what people
how people view Kevin Durant, a guy who is gonna
be turning thirty seven, and you like, if you're gonna sign,
if you're gonna trade for him, you're gonna sign him
to a two your extension, which is gonna be one
hundred and ten million dollars I believe around that over
the next two years after the next season. So that's
an expensive guy for a guy who's gonna be in
his very late thirties, so it's kind of shows what

(44:12):
the market was. But again, the Sons didn't have a
lot of leverage. Like the Sons in KD that partnership
is ending no matter what. Both those guys wanted to
move on from each other, so everyone around the league
knew that, and the Sons didn't have a lot of
leverage in these talks. When you think about what they
acquired Kevin Durant for, they gave it mckail Bridges, Cam
Johnson a four first round picks to get Kevin Durant,
and they went through three playoff runs with him two

(44:33):
and a half seasons, one playoff or one s postseason
series win in those three playoffs with Kevin Durant. Given
what they gave up to get them, and then what
the ultimate return is is Dylan Brooks, Jalen Green and
the tenth pick in the draft and a bunch of
second rounders. It's just it's unbelievable. But they have to
start over. And now the question is, like, you're building

(44:54):
around Devin Booker, who I really like, I think is
a great player, building around Devin Booker with what and
like four like eventually it just feels like, I know
that Devin Booker loves it there, and I think he
wants to stay and he wants to be the guy.
But eventually, it's like, what are you actually building around
Devin Booker for to be the ten seed to maybe
win one play in game and then get knocked out
in the second round of the play in not even
make the playoffs. You don't have the right Personnelity don't

(45:17):
have the right assets to build around Devin Booker. So
eventually I think he'll be on the move and he's
the next story. I think a lot of teams might
be circling around the league.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Are you on the same page as me that tyres
Halburton's better than Devin Booker.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
It's it's hard to say no after this run good
Like It's like I think Tyr's Albert impacts winning more definitely,
Like it's hard to say otherwise, especially after what we
just saw. I love Devin Booker though. I really like
Devin Booker, always have and I think I think he
like this guy was the best player on the finals
team too a couple of years ago. Again with the
right team around him. Let's not forget that, like Tyri's

(45:53):
Albom was the best player and dictate everything the Pacers do.
Devin Booker had the right group around him, with a
Chris Paul, with a mckail bridge, with some other guys.
But Devin Booker was the best player on the team
that went to the NBA Finals two and not that
long ago. So so I think when stuff is working
for Devin Booker, he's right there with Tyres Celibert. I
don't think there was like a big gap one one
or the other. I'm still a huge Devin Booker fan.
I think he can impact winning at a high level.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
If I had you guess Devin Booker's career three point
percentage right now, what would you guess?

Speaker 1 (46:18):
It is? Probably thirty six.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
Thirty five point four percent. He has shot.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
He's only shot over thirty five percent from three direct
thirty five percent, one two three, four seasons of four
of his ten NBA career and four of his ten
seasons in the NBA. I do think like I like
Booker too. I think like he's he goes about his
business the right way, does a really nice job is
off ball motion competes a Devin Booker guy. But I

(46:46):
do think he's a dude that I think we prop
up maybe a little bit more just the case, like
I don't think there's any I have this Sun's I
agree with you. He needs to be on the move.
I don't know what they do. And the Bradley Beal conversation,
I was looking at something like the comparisons for buyouts.
The only really comparable like examples are Blake Griffin and
Kemba Walker, who were still massive deals. Both those guys

(47:07):
dealt with injuries like that was sort of why that
was the case. Bradley Beale just stinks and doesn't want
to be there, and like it has the most loser
energy of like any active athlete. I don't know how
you you can even get around this.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
It's it's an untenable situation, which is why you have
to buy him out and it might probably will be
the most expensive biot in NBA history. Yeah, but but
it's like he doesn't impact winning, You don't want the team.
His market is literally zero, Like I don't even know
if you can get a second round pick for the guy.
Second round pick and Bradley build this point based on
what that contract is. So the whole whole whole get

(47:39):
bought out and then probably signed with like the minimum
somewhere and maybe he'll still be an impact player, but
not no one wants them for that contract. So it's
it's just it's it's an awful situation that the Sons
put themselves in by doing the opposite of what the
Thunder and Pacers did by just acquiring superstars and not
actually building out a team. So that that's that's the
formula that I think everyone realized is not to follow

(48:00):
now in the NBA. I I I don't think badly
be A will be playing on the Suns come opening that.
I just don't. I just don't, And and that's everyone's
the best interest.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
He also has a full no trade clause, so he's
like in the room for these conversations and ways he
has to dictate.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Where he wants to go. But even if he didn't
like who's training foray.

Speaker 3 (48:20):
Yeah, I don't think anyone like it.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Already there was already concerns for Bradley Beale, like when
there was the first Washington trade, that he'd kind of
tapered off as a guy that like wanted to win,
it seemed, and that has been put on full display
out there in Phoenix. I can't imagine that, like for
all out of all teams in the NBA, I think
future outlook just looking at the Son their dead last
on the list.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
Probably I mean the Yeah, I mean they don't have
their picks, so that that's the big thing. They still
have a top fifteen ish player in the NBA, which
is like a huge asset, and I don't necessar I
think you can build around with again when it's the
right team. He was the best player on the championship team.
They don't have the personnel or assets right now around him.
I still think that if you have a top fifteen

(49:03):
player in the NBA, Like I can't think of anyone
worse right now, but like the Wizard, Like the Wizards,
like they they have a lot of picks and they're
going to be tanking, but it's you know, can't really
tank in the NBA anymore, so it's like, like what's respect.
I really like the front office too, but but it's
and hopefully Derek Queen with Alex Sar which we'll get
to in a little bit. But yeah, maybe the Thunder

(49:24):
the Sun's probably of the worst because they definitely have
one of the worst owners in the game, and there's
a lot of bad ones, so it's kind of hard
to even be considered one of the worst owners in sports.
Should be an honor, it should be a badge privilege
to be considered the worst owner in the NBA because
there's such awful ones across the league right now. We
just can't. Can't, can't kept themselves out of the picture
and let their actual executive that they hire to do

(49:44):
stuff operate.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Yeah, step your game up, James Dolan, go take back
the throne for worst worst owner in the NBA.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
But uh, before we based on firing FIBs, if that
was him, then he might have Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
Fair point, And uh, I did want to I knew
we want to touch a little bit on the eastern
con side of things. I want to bookend the next
part of that until they hire a coach and we
kind of have a clearer idea of the vision from
there because we're still at that stage of the process.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
But I think the coach, You think the coach matters
that much. I mean Jenkins and I don't think Jason
Kids can flee out of it. Whether it's any three
of those guys, I'm not like that doesn't change how
I view the Knicks for next season. If based off
it's any three of those guys.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Well, I think the slant is like, this is our roster,
this is our talent, and we're going to have a
new you know, like choreographer of putting this all together,
of this is how the offense can run, so less
about like, I don't think I'll have any immediate feelings
on who the hiring is, but I do think like
depending on who the decision is and how this offense
looks will drastically impact my opinion of whether or not

(50:43):
this team is legitimate or not. I do think that
there's a world where that you can get more out
of what Bibbs was getting with that roster, but we're
gonna have to see it. Like at the same time
that this team was almost went to the NBA Finals
this year, that they were in the Eastern Conference sem
or in the Eastern Conference finals there. So I don't know,
that's sort of how I feel that.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
I mean, the are obvious, like I mean not practically,
they're not necessarily obvious, but it's like, yeah, that was
they completely abandoned the town's Brunson pick and pop, which
worked really well in the first half of the season,
abandoned it in the second half of the season, completely
abandoned it in the playoffs. Mikail Bridges was completely underutilized.
Would like to see him more as a ball handler,
getting downhill, secondary playmaker. He was kind of relegated to

(51:20):
the corner. So this offensive fixer ore fixes are obvious, obvious,
and I think that's what the new coach has to
sell to whoever, or excuse me, sell to the front
office in his interviews. But again, like I think all
those coaches are. I think Jason k would be the
worst of those three in terms of Mike Brown and
Tail Jenkins and Jason Kidd, But I think all those
coaches know what they have to address, and like coaching

(51:42):
only matters. Of course it matters, But as NBA front
offices view these coaches, they obviously think they're highly replaceable,
so it only matters so much. The roster is way
more important, and I think we have an idea of
what that what that core will look like, which is
why I think we can still talk about them to
an extent without their coach being placed.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
I think easy to identify, I uh, not as easy
to fix his kind.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Yeah, I'm not saying I could fix I'm not a coach,
but but but yes, I'm with you on that.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, but we'll keep it in the West real quick.
To wrap up with Kevin Durant conversation, the Houston Rocket
Rockets championship contenders next year.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
They were the two seed in the West last year
and the only thing that held him back was their
inexperienced and and their their poor offense in the clutch
late in games. And they answered both those things with
this Kevin Durant trade. Like he he as long as
he stays healthy, and of course he's gonna be turning
thirty seven pretty soon, so so it's a big if.
But he's been relatively healthy the last couple of seasons
since the since the Achilles when he came back from that.

(52:38):
So I I absolutely think that that the Rockets are
based on the odds board, they've leaped up to second,
so they have second start to win the West behind
the Rockets, depending on what the Nuggets do. I would
put the thunder Rockets and Nuggets and a tier of
their own in the West.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Yeah, I think that's totally fair that that I'm buying
into what the Rockets are selling there. I do think
they also had needed to make a decision between Jalen
Green and I'm and Thompson to the point where those
two were stepping on each other's development a little bit,
and then they made the right choice by keeping the
Thompson to an around. So shout out to Houston, awesome offseason,
well done, and there's obviously still that still finishing touches
they can put on this roster here. Do you want

(53:15):
to touch on the Eastern Conference or should we dive
into some NBA draft talk.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
Let's let's go. Let's do the East a little bit
and then we'll do some some more in depth on
the draft. The only thing with the East is like
it's just wide open, and it was open before the
Tyres Haliburn injury. But this might be the worst conference
in NBA. Players long like play the song, but there's
a lot of teams that are looking at like it
is now or absolutely never. And that starts with the

(53:42):
Philadelphia seventy six ers, who like, if there's ever a
time to have hope and SEXUS fans should never get hope,
and they don't at this point because obviously their souls
are crushed every time a glimmer of hope seeks in
creeps in this it is now or never. Though, like this,
the East is wide open the nose. Jason Tatum and
the Celtics are still up there on the odds, but
no Jason Tatum, like the Sellers aren't gonna be legitim contender.

(54:04):
They're gonna look different too. How they probably won't be
on the team, but it's essentially a gap year for them.
Pacers are completely out of it now without Tyres Saliman
for all of next season. So those are two teams,
the last two Eastern Conference champions, the Patier and the Celtics,
who shouldn't be in contention because injuries to their best
player for all of next season. So the East is
wide open. And if you're like the Bucks and the
honest that might be honest might even have an idea

(54:27):
of sticking around even more. And I might want to
stick around even more because he's looking at it like
I'm the best player in this conference. I can win
this conference, this awful conference, because I'm the best player.
The Calves are still the favorites, as they should be.
The Calves have a prime opportunity after an early earlier exit,
and they would have hoped after winning sixty four games
this year, they're the favorite of plus two seventy. Next
are right there plus three hundred Magic plus four forty

(54:50):
Celtics plus four seventy five Sixers plus eleven hundred. I
think people are heavily sleeping, and then the Pacers plus
fifteen hundred, and then people are heavily sleeping on the
Pistons plus nine. That's another team that could easily be like, Okay,
we had some scars last year, but we we took
the knixt to six games, like we had an opportunity
to win a bunch of those games that we lost.
You are kind of inexperienced and youthfulness showed up. So

(55:12):
the Pistons, especially with the getting Jad and Ivy back,
We'll see what they do in free agency, and Malie
Beasley's a free agent, some other guys that are pretty
key to their their team. The East is wide open,
and there's a ton of different teams that can say, oh,
we got to go all in now, and that's what
the Magic did with the Desmond Bain trade, and they
should be in contention. But there's a lot of teams
that are saying it is now or never, this is

(55:33):
the season and allow us to go right, of course
with injury, luck and everything, but it starts with the
Knicks and Sixers and the Calves who should be at
the top of those lists, saying this is our time, like,
this is our time to win the East because this
is a week week Eastern Conference.

Speaker 3 (55:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
At ten fifty pm last night, I fired off the
tweet that the Sixers can one win the East next year,
and I think.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
Yeah, I don't think that's true, but well they can.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
They certainly can. Like look at this, look at these
options that we're talking about. Cleveland is the favorite. Get
out of here. There's zero chance that the Cleveland Cavaliers
could win the Eastern Conference a chance the year.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
Four games last year and they lost to the Pacers,
but that was because a big reason Darius Darius Garland
has had a serious toe injury.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Do you think that they run this back and get
better results? I know we discraded it with this.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Definitely think they get better results. I'd be surprised if
not in the conference finals. That definitely think they get
better results.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
I think you have to break up Donovan Mitchell and
Darius Garland, and I don't think Jared Allen is a
playoff player.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
I completely disagree with the Darius Garland thing. I get
the defensive concerns as the back court, Darvis Garland again
had a serious toe injury that that hampered him and
hindered his ability to defend even more so that's why
the Pacers were constantly targeting even more than they usually would.
When you have the right like we have a DeAndre
Hunter is a good wing defender. When you have a
dominant front court or excuse me, yeah, front court defensively with

(56:52):
Jared Allen, Evan Mobley was Defensive Defensive Player of the Year,
then you're gonna have an opportunity where you can kind
of mask some of those concerns with a small backcourt
who can't defend in Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland. So
I get the Jared Allen thing, like there are concerned
with Jared Allen and Evanmobile, but they were the best
offensive league during the regular season. It's the defense that
that has to be better. I think in this East

(57:14):
they're capable of winning it, and I think they're the
best team in the East, Like I just do based
on the personnel in town. I really do. I think
this team can make leaps and bounds next year. They
got some playoff experience under Kenny Atkinson, and I think
this team can win the East.

Speaker 2 (57:28):
I think they have to take a swing. But I
think they're.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
Why now because they just won sixty four games. They
lost to a team that was on a magical run
in the Pacers, and they dealt with injuries, and yeah
they looked lost throughout that series, but they dealt with
some injuries. So why not run it back when the
weast East has gotten so much worse?

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Because this is now back to back head coaches that
have stood at the podium when they've got eliminated and
said this team doesn't have the heart or the mental toughness.
This is now back to back coaches that have not
got better results that we were running to the same
exact problems and in consecutive postseasons. And I just don't
think your four Beats players are capable of playing together
on the court, and that to me calls for a shakeup.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
But we saw it offensively throughout the season. They were
the best offensive league. Evan Mobley took leaps and bounds
as a player got a part of the problem here. Him, Yeah, him,
and then and Donovan Mitchell, Darvis Goung. I thought had
a really good year, and he's dealt with a lot
of injuries as this a greer. I thought, excuse me,
I thought he had a really good year. Jared Allen
is the one question mark, but I thought him and
Evan Mobley actually paired pretty well together. Like despite all

(58:27):
all the spacing concerns that people had about two bigs
who can't really shoot, even though Evan Mobley became a
slightly better shooter this year, those spacing concerns weren't a
thing throughout the season because of how they used Evan
Mobley as a even though we can't shoot, as a
guy who would get a lot of top of the
key Neil touches. Were a lot of dhs through through
Evan Mobley.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
So I thought this.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
Team easily showed that they can work together. And then
when you added DeAndre Hunter and you had some of
the depth that they had, Max Shrews and a lot
and Ty Jerome probably won't be there, but a lot
of those guys might be there. This This, this is
a team that showed they can play together. Offensively.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
I think they had an excellent regular season. I don't
think they're any different from like a twenty fifteen Hawks
or you know one of those teams that twenty.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Fifteen Hawks that they run into Lebron James every year.
There's no Lebron James in this conference.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Sure that part's true, But like, I just don't see
it with the cav I like, I think they need
to make a shake up for me to take them seriously.

Speaker 3 (59:23):
This year, I pretty much have been written off as
any sort of.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
I think see things. I think you run it back
one more year when you have a wide open East,
and you you kind of build that character, build that
toughness through some of these losses, and then why not
run it back with a really weak East and then
if things don't work out again, then you can consider
shaking it up. But there's no reason to shake it
up right now and take that risk after each one
sixty four regular season games.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
I think Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley are awesome, and
that's where the conversation needs to start them. How do
we fully optimize these guys moving forward? Is how it
approach things from the calves, and I think the answer
to both those questions has has to do with moving
home from Jared Allen and Daris Garland, So we'll see
we can dig deeper into that for the conversation. To
just rip down this list the Knicks, you and I

(01:00:04):
have had plenty of our battles about. I think we
can leave that one or Atlando Magic. I do take
serious that I think that people are still sleeping on
them a little. They have climbed a third at plus
six hundred odds, so obviously some respect there, I think
deservely so that I think Desmond Bane's gonna be a
difference maker, and he seems thrilled to be there, by
the way, so shout out hasn't been Bane with some
of those quotes coming out. The Celtics I think are

(01:00:24):
gonna be more confident than a lot of people are
giving credit. But I think we leave that door open
too until we see what their offseason ultimately unfolds. As porzingis,
Drew Holliday, like Derek White, who of these guys is
for sure gonna be back?

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
Jalen Brown? Could he be on the move.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
They're gonna have to make some tough decisions this summer,
so we'll see on that and then it's the Sixers
tied with the Pacers for the fifth best odds there.
Why not in the Philadelphia seventy six Ers, Sam Austri.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Because in the conference finals, if the Sixers ever get there,
you play a game every other day. There is no
way Joel Umbi can ever play a game heightened. What
can tires MAXI? Yeah, So there's your best player on
the floor, who's everything gonna run through? Everything is everything? Well,

(01:01:10):
everything is about your best player on the floor, and
that that will be Joel Embiid, and he is not
capable of playing every other day, and not just every
other day, but a heightened the heightened intensity. Like we've
seen how intense and physical these playoffs have been, which
has been awesome to watch. The more I think about it,
the more I'm just like, Joel Embiid can't play in
this environment, especially this late into the playoffs. So as

(01:01:30):
much as we want to say like, yeah, I think
the Sixers team actually is gonna have a really good
regular season and I think they're gonna be a top
three to four seed in the East and like somewhere
in that range, the more I look at these playoffs,
the more. I'm like Embiid is incapable of playing this
late into the postseason every other day with this type
of physicality. So I like the Sixers on paper, like
I think they're one of the best teams in the East,

(01:01:51):
But do we really trust Embiid at this point to
play this late into the postseason.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
I don't think he could play the version of basketball
that he has played to this point. But I do
think that there are change that can be made him
playing a lower usage role that they're being more for
Tyrese MAXI more for Jared McCain, that there can be
a shift in identity in a way that does translate
to more team success and that is sustainable for Jowell Embiid.
That I do think that there's a pathway to that.
Steve was the best player in the entire world eighteen

(01:02:16):
months ago. That it was that short time frame that
Jowel Embiid was the front runner for his second straight MVP,
and I understand a lot has changed since that point.
There's no way around the injury concerns and all these
conversations how he looked on the floor last year. But
I guess like to circle back to our conversation about
how like that list of who can be a best
player on the championship team might be a bit longer.

(01:02:37):
I think it can make a pretty convincing case right
now that Tyrese Maxi is at worst equal with Halibert.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
No, no, no, he's not, is not even close. And
he's developed a lot as a playmaker and as a
processor coming off picking rolls and all that stuff. He's
developed a lot, and that's been great to see. He
is not even close to the level Tyre's Albut and
the way Tyre Albert makes his teammates better than crehots
for his teammates, Tyrese Maxi is even close to that point.

(01:03:04):
We just obviously the it's it's it's hard to really
put any stock into the Sixers past season. But Tyre's
Maxy struggle with his efficiency a lot when when Joel
and beat is out the floor, and that's throughout his career.
I don't think those guys are on the same level
at all.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
I mean they're different the two. Tyrese is stylistically there.
I think Max is a better score. I think max
he is a better defender. He's certainly a better.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Tari's Max on his Pacers team. You think they're in
the NBA Finals.

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
I mean, Halibert is such like an engine of it
that I think probably not from that direct answer, but
I don't think they're that far off, Like I I
really think that that's that's a closet. I think Tyrese
Maxi people are still sleeping off, like even for.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
What I love Tyrus Maxey, So I don't want to
discount him like I loved him, and I think he
hasn't even scratched the serface and the player he've ben
come and as a scorer and as a shooter and
all that stuff. Sure, yeah, he's definitely better. But what
I why I had to eat my words about Taris
Hallibers because I underestimated how much he could impact winning
and how much he could create first teams to make
his teammates better. That is why Tyre Saliburn and the

(01:04:06):
Pacers made the finals and one game away. Tyre Smaxi
does not have that ability just yet.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Yeah, possibly not, but I don't think that there's I
think he can get there, like I think he could
be there at this time next year.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Is I guess what I'm getting out with MAXI.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
Like, he doesn't stop getting better, He's gonna be miles
better than he was last year.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
And I'll just make that case.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
I want to get to the draft conversation real quick.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Can I give you Can I give you so? Yeah?
I mean based on like I think the Sixers are
top three team in the East next year on paper,
like for sure, so so theoretically they should compete for
a championship. The Joel embiad factor is there, but like,
the East is wide open? Can I give you a
sleeper team that, like, don't be shocked June twenty third,
twenty twenty five, right now, in twelve months around, don't
be shocked. No, no, not Toronto, don't be shocked close,

(01:04:53):
don't be shocked. If this team is in is in
the NBA finals next year in a wide open East.
It's not the Raptors. I really don't like the Raptors
at all. But it's the the Atlanta Hawks. It's the
Atlanta Hawks. This team, this team was good last year,
like really good for the first couple months of the
season until Jalen Johnson went down. But he was on
a trajectory to become an All Star like he had

(01:05:15):
he had an awesome season last year until he until
he got hurt, averaging almost nineteen points a game, ten boards,
five assists in thirty six games, and then got hurt,
and this Hawks were really good with him. Zachary Rischischart
showed a lot of flashes of rookie I really like
his potential. Of course, Dyson Daniels made huge jumps, not
just as a defender but as an offensive player too.
And then Trey Young probably had the best season of
his career, not scoring wise, but I thought as a

(01:05:37):
playmaker making the right play, not to being a guy
that jacks up a ton of shots. I thought Trey
Young took a huge jump forward. This team was good.
If Jalen Johnson can return to what he was coming
off that injury. I think this Hawks team is not
just like a top five team in the East, but
a team that legitimately could shock people in a wide
open East where it's like the Hawks are about to
make the NBA Championship. Don't don't be don't be surprised.

Speaker 3 (01:05:59):
I'm telling you this net Yeah, I don't fully hate it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
I do like Jalen Johnson a lot, and that's definitely
the X factor. He was straight up terrific last year,
like he was processing his playmaking his ability to get
a rebound, push the pace and attack down hill. I
was a bit of a skeptic of his coming out
of Duke because I still don't like the way that
he kind of handled himself through that entire situation, leaving
the team and all those kind of things. But the
bottom line is this dude can play, and if that

(01:06:24):
is the version of him that is real.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
It was a bit of a short sample size last year.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
That does change the directory of the Hawks there, So
I don't hate the shout there. An interesting call, and
I do think that they've done a nice job collecting
a roster of guys that do compliment try young guys
that can catch lobs, guys that can shoot threes. So
just getting big wings to surround him with. So not
a bad shout there. I won't attack you for that
too much. What I will attack you with is some

(01:06:48):
NBA draft takes right here. So I only got about
ten minutes before I got to hop off. I want
to get right to Derek Queen. We went back and
forth a little bit. You're sleeping on my man, common model.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
Watch no, no, I'm not. You're sleeping with the Queen.
I'm not sleeping on mala Watch. I'm not, but you're
sleeping on Derek Queen. I have to hate. If I'm
gonna prop up one guy, you gotta tear down another.
That's how this works.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
So yeah, you hit me in both categories here because
I'm lower on Derek Queen than the consensus, and I'm
higher on Malawatch the consensus. I don't think it would
be the worst decision in the world. The Sixers took
him at three. I don't think they should do it.
That wouldn't be my preference, but that's what I kind
of believe in this make the case why Derek Queen
is a better basketball player or a safer NBA draft
pick than Malawa, because I think damage is just not so.

Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
So you texted me that the the com on mala watches.

Speaker 3 (01:07:33):
Floor and ceiling floor end ceiling are higher than Queen.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
Yeah, I can give you the floor. I can give
you the floor because Goman mala Watch just is. It
is what he is, and we'll talk about that in
a second. The ceiling is ridiculous because Derek Queen's ceiling
if he figures it out gets in the right situation,
everything comes together. His ceiling is miles miles ahead of
Kaman malaw watch and I think it's the second or
third high ceiling in this entire draft. That's how Derek

(01:07:58):
Crane's ceiling is. You just look around the league. You
do not pass up on guys, big men who have
the skill sets that Derek Queen has in terms of
as a passer, his vision, a guy who can put
the ball on the floor and drive to the rim,
his touch around the rim. He was a good free
throw shooter, and he has such great touch on his ball,
handling ability, all of it. You don't pass up on

(01:08:20):
biggs like that. It's rare. It is rare for bigs
to have those qualities.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
It just is.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
So.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
Yeah, you can say there's a lot of defensive concerns
will position four or five. All that are legitimate concerns,
and I've answers for them, but they're legitimate concerns. The
point is when you have a big, big man who
is that type of skill set, when everyone's looking for
a big man to everyone's looking for bigs, like I'm
not saying Nikoliokicic, but like in nikoliokicch like an Alpura
and Sengoon like a the Mantas Sabonis. Guys who have

(01:08:46):
that type of skills as a big they're going to
be great NBA players because it's so rare and he
has all of it. And to the point Abou Kaman Malawach,
it's like he's he's going to have a really nice
NBA career, no doubt. But he is what he is like.
He is a rim running, lob threat. He's not a
guy who can pass. He's not a guy who can
operate out of short role as a playmaker. He's not

(01:09:06):
a guy who can put the ball on the floor.
He's not a guy who can shoot. He doesn't have
those skills. He's not he doesn't have those. Even though
he doesn't have those skills, he's a running he's a
great rim protector, he's a lob threat, and that there's
a value for that in the NBA. But in terms
of Derek Queen's skill set, those guys don't even compare.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
So for starters, they shot the exact same free throat percentage,
and I.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
Watch a good three good free throw shooter for.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
Sure, milewatch also a better three point shooter than Derek Queen.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
That's that he's not a better three point shooting Derek Queen.
That's that's sample size. That sample sizes nothing. Both guys
didn't shoot from three. Guys didn't shoot him three. Derek
Queen has better if you look at their shots, Derek
Queen is better. Touched. Derek Queen only made seven threes
on the year, but five of them came in the
last four games of the season. So he made improvements
as the year went on.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
Or he got lucky and hot for one game there was.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
It was four games he had three and four of
those games all right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
So here's what I really want to attack on Derrek Queen.
I'm glad you said he's not Nicoliokch because he's not
even in that conversation. I don't see whatsoever this vision
about this quote unquote hub of the offense type guy.
He's not a good playmaker. He's a good passer for
a big man, he is not an above average playmaker
from an NBA draft perspective. Of an NBA perspective, just
looking at his stats last year, averaged one point nine

(01:10:19):
assists per game, Sam Ostrie one point nine. He had
a negative assist to turnover ratio. He had nineteen games
with one or zero assists last year. He did not
register over five assists in a single game. They played
the games for a reason.

Speaker 3 (01:10:31):
Man.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
I understand he has these highlights where it looks cool
or whatever, but he did not consistently set the table
for that Maryland team like at all.

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
He is. He's talented, he has.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
Everything ran through him for that Maryland team, everything ran
through him.

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
Then why are the assist numbers not hot?

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
I tell you why, because it's not. You can't just
always look at college assist numbers because you're relying on
college kids to make shots. Assist is you pass it
to a guy and he has to make the actual
shot him for you to make it in Like, I
don't don't care as much about assist numbers. I care
about the passing ability and instincts in the vision. Like
that's what matters to me. When I'm looking at how

(01:11:05):
good of a pass or a prospect would be in college,
it's you can see, does this guy have passing instincts?
And you develop that too. For surely he's gonna continue
to develop that. But it's clear that this guy has
natural passing instincts in a way that a some Bonus
does Sangoon a Jokic have, where you have these big
men who who have these passing abilities, and it's a
lot about the short role too, Like that's what you

(01:11:27):
want to see a lot of screen and role and
you're gonna guys in the short role and he's gonna
make plays when you get two on the ball and
you have a four and three advantage. And that's what
Derek Queen I saw him he was really good at
as a passing insects. I don't care about the assists.
I saw him become a good passor and.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
So for starters, that's just so low on my priority
list when looking at big man for what I care
about there that I just don't care if you're that
gifted of a pastor to be honest, I honestly like
hardcore disagree with that art type of player.

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
That's part of the reason I was in the.

Speaker 1 (01:11:57):
Value you don't value like how much you run screen
of role putting to the ball and then as a
short role playmaker, how important has that then for guys
to for Biggs to be good out of the short role,
Like that's so important.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
That purely dependent on the context of a team and
what you have to of course, but I think I
was I was in a Nicole Jokid skeptic for a long
time because I have, like I strongly feel you need
your big man to be able to protect the rim well,
and like I don't think it is the best archetype
to be targeting for guys who have defensive concerns, who
have all this talent offense.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
I think it's the best playing the league last few
years and wanting them be a championship as a not
great rim.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
Protective he is, But my point is that is an outlier,
not the role. There's a reason why Demanas Sabonis has
never been on a legitimate contending team. There's a reason
why there's still questions about Alperinstringu. And you can dive
down a bunch of Europeans from past years who have
this stylistic play which Derrek Queen sort of has there,
He's different from that. He's got some played in the
blacktop to his game for sure, that he can just
get the spots.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
And all that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:12:53):
When I'm looking at what Malo Watch brings to the table,
He's like, there's no chance Derek Queen's a more impactful
defender than what Malo watch is going to be immediately there.
I do believe in the shooting touch. I think that
free throw touch is legit. And I've used this phrase before.
But he's so just inquisitive in his approach to basketball.
He's just figuring things out that he is incredibly raw.
Derek Queen is pretty much a finished power of finished products.

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):
Not Why is he a finished pause? He's nineteen years
old and he's elevated the game every single year. Even
as the Maryland season went on, like you feeling about
McDonald's All American game, he was the MVP and then
he just got so much better in his first year
in college. Why is Derek Queen a finished product? He's nineteen, he.

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
Is what he is like like stylistically, I know I
know what he is. I think Malo Watch like is
still figuring out who he is as a bad.

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):
Derek Queen gets a lethal three point shot, like his
ceiling is I can't even raise his steeling.

Speaker 3 (01:13:43):
Had a three point shot, he would have been a
Hall of Famer.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
There's there's a big difference in those guys work ethic.
Derek Queen has a great work ethic, huge difference. You
can say that have a lot of people. A lot
of people haven't developed it, but a lot of people
have developed a good three point shot. And I have
no question about Derek Queen's work ethic to get there,
So I think that's a real possibility.

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
I think Milewatch is like Ceiling is like a top
five center in the NBA, Like if he puts together
the shooting.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Touch, which like what did you see him at Duke
last year? Like that other than being a rim running
big who just caught lobs, was really good finishing around
the rim and finished everything because he's really good, he's
so athletic and go around the rim and then also
as a rim protector, Like what else did you see
from him last year?

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
I believe in the touch that he Obviously it's limited
sample size, but seventy six percent of the freight throw
line is legitimate for a big man there. The three
point shot looked good to me by the end of
the season, and again the volume was not high enough
to read into it significantly. But he's impressed in workouts
and I get their open gym looks. Once again, I
think the touch is there, and I think like he
knows who he is as far as the basic skills

(01:14:48):
center in a way that appeals to me. I think
the defense is going to be that special, that he's
going to be one of the best defensive big men
in the league. And this combo, to me is enough
to that's what I would place my bet on.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
The defensive stuff is real, for sure, But like we
see guys who who or that, like a Derek Lively
type who's just strictly like a rim running big you
can catch a lot of lobs and is a great
rim protector around the rim, But like what is what
is he more than that? Like he doesn't he can
make free throws, but he's not He's not a guy
who you're ever running anything through. He's not a guy
you trust in the short role as a playmaker. He's

(01:15:20):
not a guy that that you like would run any
actions for because that's strictly his role. That's what I
see in Mala watch, Like I don't see him ever
becoming And look, he just started playing basketball like six
years ago, so so the development track can be there.
And I don't want to tear him down because I
think he's gonna have a really good, nice NBA career.
But when you have spigman who are that as skilled

(01:15:41):
as Derek Queen, and they're rare, like they're they're very rare.
The footwork, the footwork is excellent, the touch around the rim,
the vision, the ballhandling ability, his capablity of driving, like
how how he works off the glass, like his dhos
short role playmaker, everything that you see NBA teams do offensively,
he did those actions at Maryland. So I just like,

(01:16:03):
you don't pass on guys who have that type of
skill set. You just don't like you can figure out
the positional concerns later and the defensive stuff later. When
you have that skill seted his size, you just don't
pass on it. And usually NBA history tells us you'll
be rewarded for it. And last thing, you say, Sabonis
and all those guys, those guys are all stars, borline
all stars. If Derek Queen becomes those he's a success story.

(01:16:23):
Those guys. You can say the concerns with Sabonis not
impacting winning, that's legitimate, but Sabonis also has been the
best sacond best player on his team most of those
years and I don't think that's right by by the Kings,
because that's not he shouldn't be. But but I still
think if he's an All Star or anything close to it,
Derek Queen in a very successful career.

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
Yeah, I'm not saying he should get undrafted, but I
would put a friendly wager on the model wage career
arc here. But we're gonna have to book end this
conversation for now. I gotta get over to writing some
DraftKings article. Well, we'll be diving into a little bit
of those Eastern Conference rankings, so to make sure to
stay tuned from that, you guys, make sure you're subscribing
wherever you're watching that. Shout out to you guys for
tuning in for me and Sam Osher today, we're gonna

(01:17:02):
get things back over to the Fox Sports style here,
so appreciate you guys tuning in and we'll be back
talk with you next time.

Speaker 1 (01:17:07):
Spreads Total and all the prop that's in between, it's
the Gambler

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Ep. 92: What the Thunder Winning the NBA Finals Means for the League, NBA Draft Talk - 06/23/25

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 92: What the Thunder Winning the NBA Finals Means for the League, NBA Draft Talk - 06/23/25