Crabs in a Bucket

In this episode Terence welcomes back his brother and friend Shawn B. McCullers Esq. to discuss the idea of "Crabs in a bucket." 

They discuss how Blacks must learn to work together and not against one another in order to achieve success. Success in not a finite resource. 

They believe it is possible to disagree and learn from others. The fact that people take the time to pour out and receive information from one another is an act of love and respect and therefore should be treated as such.

People become better through experiences and we can all become better if we learn to listen to one another. 

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Episode Transcript

Terence Shigg (00:04):
I could do came a long way. And I could do, I
could do all I can do. I'm notafraid of the moment. I'm not
afraid I can't hold it. Hi guys.
I gotta get up in the morning. Igotta do it for Kobe, I know I'm
going to take you whatevercontrollers Show me your

(00:26):
opponent's coming opponent.
Okay, welcome back.
Oh, welcome to the peaceproject. My name is Terence
Shigg. And today we're going tobe talking about what I call

(00:47):
crabs in a bucket. crabs in abucket. Now most of us have
heard that story or that phrasebefore, but those of you that
haven't, let me just give you abrief idea of what I'm referring
to when I talk about that.
That's the idea that when youare trying to do something that
is positive, or when you'retrying to do something that will
uplift society yourself. Thereare others that will, let's just

(01:12):
say, try to make it difficultfor you to do that. That comes
in many different differentforms. That's a, that's the
relative that says that whatyou're doing isn't possible for
you to do because they know whoyou are, or that's the person

(01:32):
that tells you who do you thinkyou are trying to give me advice
when I know where you come from?
And it gets even more insidious?
Because sometimes it's the voiceinside your head that tells you
who do you think you are?
Because I know what you did. Andwe all have a closet. We all got

(01:58):
something in our closet. That'sjust human nature. Nobody's
perfect. There was only oneperfect human being and he
wasn't human. So today we'regoing to talk about crabs in a
bucket. What that means how thatshows up. And then the question
I want you to, to ponder as wetalk about this, in today's

(02:20):
world in light of everythingthat's going on, because I know
many people have asked thisquestion is will this country
survive? Will this countrycontinue to be the greatest
country in the world with all ofthe crabs in a bucket?

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Terence Shigg (03:30):
And we're back.
Now one of the things thatreally got me thinking about
this is everybody has twitter ornot everybody but most people go
to Twitter and they look at itand you you get some information
and you comment back and youlook through it and you kind of
gather information about what'sgoing on. Well, I was looking
through Twitter the other dayand I saw a conversation.

(03:52):
Actually I just saw someonetrending. I saw cardi B and
Candice Owens, Candace Owenstrending. And I'm like that's an
interesting, those two people, Iwouldn't think that they'd have
a conversation, but they weretrending. So I'd look at it and
it's them going back and forthover an argument. And I have to
admit, I didn't read I didn'teven read the tweets, because

(04:16):
the first thing that came tomind to me is crabs in a bucket.
And when I say that it came tomind because I I see that two
young sisters arguing on apublic forum as evidence to be
used against black people toshow and to hold up and to make

(04:36):
light of our stance and ouropinions and our intellect. Now,
again, I didn't read the poll,so I'm not arguing who was right
and who was wrong. I'm justarguing that the forum in which
they were doing it in the mannerin which they were doing it
harms us all and harms us As asociety and harms us all as

(05:00):
black people, because if wecan't come together, then that
will be used against us. Now,I'm not saying that they have to
agree, I'm not saying that theyhave to, to not voice their
opinion. I'm just saying that itreminded me, in my opinion, of
crabs in a bucket, meaning witheverything going on, with black

(05:22):
people, with the state of thecountry right now. And everybody
trying to get their voices heardin the black community trying to
get its voices heard, to dealwith the systemic racism, and
the overt blocking of theopportunities that were

(05:46):
guaranteed, supposedlyguaranteed to us in the
Constitution. Now things havegotten better, but they still
haven't gotten to the pointwhere they should be in that
they are equal to everyone else.
And when people make theargument, say it's gotten
better, then I'm going tocounter that argument with well,
that should have never been herein the first place. If you want

(06:07):
to say I should be thankful thatit's gotten better than I'll
give you the argument that itshouldn't had to have gotten
better, it should have alwaysbeen at this place. Because of
the words if you take them asthey are written in their
meeting, then all people arecreated equal, all have the
right, and alienable right tolife, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness. It didn't say thatthat was only for one color of

(06:29):
people or one nationality ofpeople that said all people, yet
it was not equally granted toall people. And yes, we've
gotten better. But if you wantto hold on to the argument that
it's gotten better than I'mgoing to go to the argument that
it should have never had to havegotten better, should have
always been this way. And that'swhat we're fighting for now.

(06:51):
I was talking, I was actuallythe idea that came up I wanted
to talk about with the Contractwith America. And then the idea
was crabs in a bucket. That ideawas I was watching ours going
through Twitter. And then I gotthe whole argument between cardi
B and Candace Owens,

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (07:09):
right.
Yeah. Pete that yesterday?

Terence Shigg (07:11):
Yeah. And then somebody had written that it's
like crabs in a bucket. I'mlike, why do we do this to

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (07:17):
we still killing each other. You
ourselves. And then thismorning, I'm looking at Facebook
and my buddy that I grew up within LA, he's telling me that his
was I think it was his cousingot killed in a drive by
yesterday. And I'm like all thisstuff. And we, and I, and

(07:39):
know what I'm saying? And Idon't want to feed into That's
what I'm saying. Other rism?
Right, because really, that is abyproduct of a whole bunch of
other things that we're nevertalking about in this country,
right? We're always blamingblack folks. You know, the
theory is that we'reirresponsible, unaccountable, we
don't follow the law. We don'tfollow rules. We just wild

(08:03):
animals savages, right? For themost savage fucking people on
the face of the planet, right?
everywhere they go. They rape,murder, pillage and destroy,
right through disease throughtrickery, after somebody showed
you how to survive in theirenvironment. Right. So if we're
not going to talk about theissues that created this, this

(08:24):
the systemic violence, inunadulterated level of violence
that we see in our community,and while Never mind the fact
that y'all got a hold on theserial killers, and school
shooters in the church shooters,but so never have a conversation
about why the white community isnot accountable for them.
motherfuck. That's right. Sowhen we talk about our people is

(08:47):
easy to feed into all thesestereotypes about black people
in violence, because that is themantra, I go back to the book.
The book is called drug crazy. Iread it in like 2001, I was
taking a class at University ofDelaware. And my professor was
she was a female. She was anOlympian of some sort. She was

(09:07):
real cool, but it was deepbecause I knew a lot of the drug
war stuff from our work atBorder Patrol. That was when I
was out rehabbing my backinjury. Right. So looking at
what we were looking at, youknow, app and Lowe's, 1500
pounds, 600 pounds, you know,weed mix Coke, whatever.
hearable, what have you. So I'mlooking at that. But one of the

(09:30):
things that the book got intothat I found really interesting,
and I've carried it with methroughout my life, is that the
book was talking about howAmerica has a system in place to
demonize groups of people, andthey employ this system,
whenever they feel thatwhiteness is threatened. Right?
That's essentially what it said.
So, you know, the first part is,they find the issue first it was

(09:51):
the the Asian folks coming overto build the Transcontinental
Railroad, right. So they cameover had their opium dens what
happened to white women wantingto go to the opium pit? Now they
lay it up in the opium dens andwhite boys, man, then the white
guys are mad. So now it's aproblem for everybody because
y'all got a prop. Mind you daysswas cool. And the black people

(10:12):
were slaves. You didn't say wehad a look? Right? So how do you
demonize them? So then theystart with media, they start
talking about the issue, puttingit out there for consumption in
the newspaper, right? And thenwhen they get the public tide
rolling with them, then theystart enacting legislation
trying to criminalize thebehavior, right? Then once they
criminalize the behavior, nowthe people are with them. Now

(10:34):
they can go in and be asforceful as they want to, and
imposes the most harsh sanctionsthat they feel because they got
the public's IRA, and the publicis behind them under the whole
guise of keeping whiteness seek.
Right? So here we are fullcircle, every issue we're
looking at in America, right.
And I think the interestingthing about this tie is that the

(10:54):
dichotomy is not so subversive.
It's really out in front, he hasbeen 46 minus one has been very
good for the expert for exposingthe system. Right? And now that

(11:14):
you look at him, he's up againstthe wall. He was always dog
whistling, I'll say it wasn't adog. It was it was straight up
whistle for racism, right. Butnow it's so overt. So then we
get back to Alright, we dealwith that juxtaposing that too.
All right, well, let's not talkabout that. Let's talk about
what's going on in blackcommunity because they still
killing each other. And untilyou stop killing each other, you

(11:36):
ain't gonna be a human being.
Right, we got all theseconditions that we want to put
on, when black people aresupposed to be valuable in this
society.

Terence Shigg (11:48):
It's, it's almost as if that not being talked
about, feeds into this wholecrabs in a bucket mentality
meaning, since that is almost ahidden truth, to some, and I'm
not even gonna say to buying saya hidden truth, it's, it's not
talked about truth is that we,we fight against one another,

(12:14):
rather than trying to deal withthat systemic racism as a as a
group of people together. It'sokay, well, I won't even agree
with that. But I'll agree thatthis thing that happened in the
past, it's like the the soundsof the word that the world that
say, you know, racism, or racismis always exist, or slavery has

(12:36):
always existed, but other groupshaven't had the problems that
you've had the problem with yourgroup. And the thing that drives
me nuts is it's his group too,because he's a black man. The
problem with Yo, is that youdon't take responsibility. It's

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (12:54):
right, the false the false moniker of
like,right, lack of self doubt, I was
headed there too, because that'sthe key factor that undergirds
their argument. Right? So it'salways this wantan and rampant
set over sexualization overcriminalization,
criminalization, but this desirethis ravenous desire within

(13:14):
black people to be law breakers,right? That is stereotypical, by
by any standard, and not evenone is being lived up to because
let's be frank, if they werecorrect, and we had all this
rampant and wanton criminalitythat's inherent in our DNA, then
white folks would have beenwiped off the face of the earth,

(13:37):
the minute we got access toguns, because that's what
protected. Right? You're stillhere. We haven't tried to
eliminate your race, we haven'tengaged in a genocide against
you. Right? So the fallacy of itis obvious on its face. But like
many things in this country,people still refuse to look at
it. Right? It's in your face.

(14:01):
You just you avert your eyes.
Right. And then you engage incognitive dissonance. Yeah,
that's not really what it is.
You know what I'm saying? It'sreally your criminality. It's
not the fact that, you know, asthis contract talks about,
right, and this contract talksabout, you know, the deprivation
of resources, and theperpetuation of poverty through

(14:25):
systematic institutions, thatare that are serialized in our
country and in our economy, andin our educational system,
right. That's what I would theywant to talk about, right?

Terence Shigg (14:37):
And so one of the things I wanted to get into
because I know we get, I know medo together, we get heated, we
start talking, but we neverreally talked about our
background. So to kind of breakdown, how you how you got to
where you are. And when I saythat, I don't mean, you know
what I mean? Meaning what wereyour influences, Where'd you

(15:00):
grow up? Okay, how did you getwhere you are?

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (15:03):
Okay, so, flashback 1973, the year the
superstar in the head, the wholeproject it was Philadelphia.
Well actually I lived with St.
When I was born in WestPhiladelphia parks IPS k all
day, you know, um, the realityis I grew up in the city of

(15:23):
Philadelphia as a young guy.
Okay, as a young guy growing upin Philly, two things happen to
me when I was about three yearsold, I got burned by sulfuric
acid, we were living inprojects, maintenance may came
in and cleaned out the drain amix of uric acid with water as
you know, salt for waterexplosion. I'm walking out the

(15:45):
kitchen, I turned back because Ihear the explosion. Get the acid
on my face, close my eyefortunately saved my eye. But as
you know, I've got a lifelongscar. So I'm in the hospital
around Christmas time that year,and there will be 76. So in the

(16:07):
spring of that year, mygrandfather who was a
Philadelphia Police Officer, inthe 50s, in order from our
guests, he was 22 years old. Soyeah, in the 50s and 60s, and
early 70s. In Philadelphia, mygrandfather came through and he
gave me and my cousin had asummer police test with the

(16:28):
little you know, the band hadthe holes in and all that stuff
that turned me out, man, Iwanted to be a cop ever since I
was three years old. Right? Sofast forward. That was that was
that was it for me. So I wasplaying with guns, cops and
robbers. the ironic thing isalways wanted to be the Indian
though I never wanted to be thecowboy. Right? So fundamentally,

(16:51):
you understood, you know,psychologically, that there was
a distinction being made and howthese people were presented,
because at that time, all youhad was cowboy boots. Right?
That was the big thing. And thenyou got chips and things of that
nature. But I never wanted to bethe cowboy. I always wanted to
be the Indian. I was like, cool,that works. And fast forward.

(17:17):
I'm 12 years old. I'm on aschool bus, we ride in a school,
I had the benefit of going toprivate, Seventh Day Adventist
schools, most of my formaleducation. I only didn't go to
private school from first grade.
I mean, from having fifth gradeand all the sixth grade I went
to public school. Other thanthat, I'd always been had the
blessing of being in privateChristian education. So I got a

(17:37):
good education. Still cominghome to the projects dressed in
that uniform. No. Church boy, Iwent to church boy, I didn't
first couple knuckles though. Mea brick or two, we was cool. I
was I was better than the hood.

(17:59):
You know what I mean? Right. Butthat's the reality of living in
those neighborhoods. Right. Eventhen you dealing with a economic
depression, and, and lack ofaccess or lack of access to
resources, lack of viableresources that feed into the
rough neighborhoods that we grewup in, right, because survival

(18:21):
is being able to withstand yourenvironment. Right? We not exist
and we're not living yet. We'resurviving. Right? We're getting
there. So fast forward. 12options. Absolutely. Right. So
I'm 12 years old. I'm on aschool bus. We ride out to have
her town which is a countyoutside of Philadelphia. And
we're riding the bus with thepublic school kids that go to

(18:42):
mostly white schools out there.
Well, one of my buddies on thebus white guy named Mike and one
of the boys from my school namedMike a get into a fight. I break
the fight up. I'm friends withboth of them. Break the fight
up, we get to the school schoolbus driver comes in Hey, it was
fight on a bus tells theprincipal principal lines us all
up out front at the steps likelisten, I heard it was a fight

(19:02):
on the school bus. What happens?
Everybody tells her whathappened, you know, little
fight, what have you. I didn'tsay nothing initially. And then
she was like, well, Shawn, yourname was mentioned, oh, I just
broke the fight up. I wasn'tinvolved in a fight. Everybody
corroborated my story. Well, I'mgonna suspend you anyway, with

(19:27):
the caveat that you can't makeup your schoolwork. So I'm livid
because I'm getting ready to bethe valedictorian of my little
three person, eighth gradeclass, right, three people in my
eighth grade class. So Mrs. Fatwas the principal at the time.
white lady, she went to thechurch that the school was

(19:49):
housed there. My other classmateshall remain nameless was a
white female and then I had ablack female. That was my
classmate. Obviously, she stillwhite girl went to the church
to, so they want her to be thevaledictorian. So that's how
they accomplish that. So I nevergot over that. Right, in terms

(20:09):
of not having somebody advocatefor me. I felt like my mom and
my grandmother didn't reallyfight the issue. I didn't even
want to go to graduation. Iremember getting a suit nary
thing, white suit pad on a bluetie was always fresh. Yeah, me.
And I could remember, I don'teven know go, you know what I

(20:30):
mean. But I think, you know, notthat they wouldn't have fought
harder for me. I don't know ifthey thought it a bigger issue
that would have that kind ofimpact on my life at that time.
So in many ways I'm thankful forthat was the first time I
decided that, hey, maybe I'll bea lawyer. Not many black guys

(20:51):
that come from the neighborhoodsthat we come from get to live
all their dreams, right? I am anexample of that. And that
happened here in America. Right?
Now the question becomes, well,if you've been moderately
successful, and you've gotten todo all the things you wanted to
do, is that an argument for younot? for blacks not being able
to succeed in America? You'vedefied the argument, Norfolk I

(21:14):
happen. I'm an I'm an anomalywith a whole bunch of good
fortune, and a name that soundsreally white showing the colors.
Right? So So you mean an Irishkid? Right? Right. Okay. I'm in
near the black Irishman. I slideit, you know, I come into the
interview about my speed just issomewhat proper. My I have my

(21:36):
grammar together. I can getthrough a few interviews, I had
interview classes at school,that was part of some of the
things that none of the guysthat I grew up with had, you
know, they're me. So then fastforward, I comply fulfilling my
favorite ask the cop in Philly.
So the whole time she's goingthrough her Academy, I'm kind of
there with her, we go throughher notes. And she's telling me

(21:58):
different information becausethey're grooming me because they
know that's where I want to be.
So I had that blessing. But theone or two most important things
that they said to me was one,you will have a lot of power.
Once I got my acceptance letterBorder Patrol, you will have a
lot of power. Remember to treatpeople the way you want to be
treated. Right. And the secondthing was my dad told me when

(22:19):
since I was little. And mygrandfather said, Listen, being
a police officer is not a job.
It's a lifestyle. You got tolive your life a certain way.
Right, which, you know, I hadthe benefit of that. So I was
able to tell my life I didstupid stuff. Stuff, I probably
could have got locked up forgetting in fights and all that

(22:41):
kind of stuff as an angry teen.
But a lot of that is because ofit. My father wasn't aware. You
know what I mean? Now, I'm notan advocate or proponent of
people lacking selfaccountability or self
awareness. But the reality isthe conditions in our
neighborhood. I grew up inprojects and down West Philly,

(23:03):
and up Cobbs Creek Parkway, whenmy grandmother, my great
grandmother and grandfather'shouse was, you know, you will
get you get shootings andmurders and knifings and all
that. You know, I know everybodyfrom murderers, the preacher,
some preachers that weremurderers, you know, they're
saying the reality is, that'sthe benefit of growing up in
that neighborhood. But it's aharsh reality. Right? The

(23:25):
benefit is, you know, we wecoast with ease, right? We speak
the language of the room thatwe're in very easily, because we
have to be all of those thingsat once when our white
counterparts don't have to beany of that,

Terence Shigg (23:42):
right now break down, break down that term for
those that don't know what codeswitch.

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (23:46):
code switching is when you go into a
room or atmosphere, and you haveto put on your proper diction,
your professional stance, andyou have to speak the language
of the people in the room thatyou're in. Right as opposed to
then I might go home and I talkto my family in a relaxed
fashion vernacular, you know,slang or you know, laughing with

(24:07):
the kids talking about what'sgoing on or me a lot of cussing.
You know, he says it is what itis my I just got to be about
that. You have such a broadvocabulary. Why do you choose
curse curse, because I like tocurse. Veteran curse words, is
what it is.And that's thereality of who I am. So again,

(24:31):
the duality of code switching,right, right. You speak in a
language that's appropriate forthe room that you're in, but
sometimes you have to, or somepeople believe they have to
switch it up in the presence ofpeople that don't look like them
in terms of their skin color ortheir culture, right. So you
switch to whatever vernacular orlanguage literally sometimes is

(24:56):
apropos for that environment.

Terence Shigg (24:58):
Right and if you need it, and then It almost
becomes a, it's, well, notalmost it becomes a natural
thing when you're not aware ofit. It's all it's something that
just it happens. And I mean,I've done it before. And before
I became aware of this, thereason that I was doing it, it
was just a natural thing. Right?
We just absolutely go into acertain environment. It's okay.

(25:21):
Basically, talk like you've beenraised you were raised by
someone as your mama would say.
You got a mama. That's right.

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (25:35):
You got some home training. Yeah,

Terence Shigg (25:37):
my mom was an evangelist herself. So she was
of that mind of that speak, thatI would see her get up and, and
switch her tone and switch theway she taught? Because that's
just it was a natural flow. Andknowing that now, though, it's
almost it's almost humoroussometimes, because I'll hear

(26:01):
I'll see somebody doing aninterview. And I think it just
happened. Actually, it justhappened. I'm at the convention,
Republican convention when theyhad, right, I think it was
Herschel Walker, and Santorum upthere. And Santorum said, Oh,
well, he speaks so well. Oh,speaks of intelligent and I'm

(26:22):
like, how come when a blackperson actually just talks?
Well, or talks like everybodyelse, or talks in a way that you
believe is intelligent, all of asudden he speaks? Well, and
that's that code switch thatabsolutely, that we are forced
to do? It's not his absolute?
Because if we didn't, and peoplesay, Oh, well, you're not

(26:43):
forcing it. What if we didn't,we wouldn't get the job, or we
were apartment,

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (26:48):
or you will have an opportunity? Right?
So when I walk in, if I don'tcall switch, right, and as part
of the black side, you will sellout? Yeah, right. You when
they're talking or proper tothem white folks. Now you come
in here, you think you wouldtalk to me anyway, you want to
talk to me like you talk tothem? Listen, bro, stop it, I'm

(27:08):
from here, you're saying thefact that I have a professional
voice or that I switch in, inthe way that I speak is
sometimes you got to speak thelanguage of the room to get your
point across, I can't go intocourt, and just cuss randomly I
might get cast occasionally iswhere somebody says, however, I
consider that a bonus, nice, puta special inflection on it for

(27:32):
the judge. However, the realityof it is, is that it is a
necessary thing. If we don'thave that, then we're not
educated well enough. Andtherefore that translates to,
you won't be able to do the jobbecause you don't speak like the
rest of your counterparts, oryou don't speak as accurately,

(27:54):
they put some fudge on it,right? You're not as as
technically precise in, incommunications, as your
counterparts and therefore youare no longer qualified for the
job. So if you want to have theopportunity to elevate your
living status, by having a jobin corporate America, or in a

(28:14):
government or in a privatecompany, that you're going to be
paid a salary that'scommensurate to or almost
commensurate to the abilitiesthat the skills that you bring
to the table, then you have tocode switch, because most of the
time what code switching withoutevaluated in my life, is it
boils down to I have to makeother people comfortable with my

(28:35):
presence in a room. And that's aburden and none of the white
guys that I've ever spoke to, orasked about that issue. feel the
same?

Terence Shigg (28:43):
Yes, yes. And so and not only that burden of
making those who don't look likeyou feel comfortable. It's, it's
almost as if now, you have tojustify that to the people that
do look like you. Absolutely,absolutely. They don't

(29:04):
understand, right? And this isthat crabs in a bucket mentality
that I I'm really, it's justkeeps ringing over and over in
my head. It's like damned if youdo and damned if you don't, if I
go out there and put in the workand and say that, okay, I'm, I'm
going to make a difference andI'm gonna be that example. Then
the those and I can't say allbut a portion of those people

(29:27):
that I'm trying to be an examplefor, for my community are going
to look at it and go, okay, hethinks he's better than he does.
He's, um, yeah. And like, I wantyou to understand I'm not doing
it because I I'm doing itknowing that I'm no better than
anybody of anybody. I know that.

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (29:43):
And what have we always talked
about? We made better decisionsthan the people that we grew up
with this. It's not about mebeing better than you. Yeah.
It's not about me having moreaccess than you necessarily some
cases that's true on my part,right because I think private
schools Gives you an edge.
Right? But the reality of

Terence Shigg (30:03):
higher education does, you know? Yes. But you
have to, you have to recognizeit and take that opportunity.
And that opportunity is notdiminished. But there are less
of those opportunities for us,then for the other. Other pop.

Shawn B. McCullers (30:20):
Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. You got
to get in where you fit in. And,and that doesn't mean and I'm a
sellout because I think anybodyI My belief is anybody that
knows me, or has worked with me,would label me a sellout. I
highly doubt that shit. I thinkthat's gonna be the case from

(30:42):
anybody that I've ever workedwith. And I find it ironic when
you talk to folks that believethat, because they are just as
stubbornly obstinate, about thepossibility of being wrong, as a
lot of the folks that stereotypeyou for all of those things are
about you not qualifying forthat stereotype. So back to the

(31:05):
crabs in a barrel, you're givingme just as hard a time for
living my life, and trying tobetter my circumstances, then I
get from the people who aretrying to keep the opportunities
from me because of where I comefrom, and what I look like.

Terence Shigg (31:19):
Right, right. Is is absurd. Yeah, it's, it's,
it's like this insidious loop.
And, and so breaking that, thatchain or getting out of that
bucket really takes an awarenessto go in? And I know I have to,
I have to be cognizant of itsometimes. Because there are

(31:41):
those that look like us that dothings that I think are kind of
productive, I think, I thinkthem saying certain things and
then making certain argumentsare counterproductive, meaning
they make it harder for us toshow that this systemic racism
does exist, and that these lackof opportunities are created by

(32:01):
an unjust system, that the samerights that were written down on
paper didn't apply equally, thenand they still don't apply
equally now. And for those ofthose those people that say that
we have moved, we've come a longway, then my argument to them is
we shouldn't have had to come along way. If those words were
true. Absolutely. You're makingmy argument when you when you

(32:24):
say we've come a long way, thenyou have to acknowledge that we
weren't there when they wrotethat down.

Shawn B. McCullers (32:30):
Absolutely.
And you have to also acknowledgethat we're still not there yet,
right? Because we've come a longway. But we're not there yet.

Terence Shigg (32:36):
Because so great that that actually says that
we're still moving, there'sstill some place to go if we're
not there yet. Um, and so I haveto kind of, I have to really
think about it, when those outthere and I'll kind of circle
this back around to Candice andcardi because I don't know if I
agree with either one of them.
But I I refuse to go out and andpersonally attack either one of

(33:02):
them. And that to me, that's thedifference. I'm not gonna break.
I'm not gonna person I mayattack. I may disagree with your
arguments, I may counter yourargument, but I'm not going to
personally attack you. And Ithink that's where things get.
That's where things get totallymessed up. Because now you're no
longer even talking aboutpeople. You're talking about a

(33:22):
person. Right? You're takingthat person to be the example of
a people when that's not whatyou're talking about, oh, he
does this. And she does. Okay.
Yeah. And then those that wantto have that, and we've talked
about this before, there arecertain people out there that
want an excuse, they want a areason to not listen to the

(33:46):
other side of the argument. Andthey will use the those
arguments to say, Okay, wellsee, I believe this. And this
person that looks like you saysthe same thing. So right, I must
be right.

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (33:59):
Right.
Exactly. Therefore, they are theadjustment for all of y'all.
Yeah. They speak for everybody,right? Do you have different
experiences, or differenttalents or bring a different
viewpoint or from yourexperience to this argument?
You're all in that side? It sayshe's right. And his side agrees
with me that we're right. You'rewrong. Yeah. So I mean,

Terence Shigg (34:23):
I'm more crab goes back in the bucket.

Shawn B. McCullers Esq (34:26):
Exactly.
Is this a rat? no freedom foryou. It's the bucket or the pot,
you know, to the to the sea isthe bucket or pot? Which What?
So it's absolutely insane. And Ithink you've made a good point
I'm I am trying to work on beingable to have these discussions
around these issues with blackfolks. And white folks are light

(34:50):
because because of ourexperience, you know, being
Border Patrol agents, we got tomeet people from every place. As
you can imagine, right everycountry, every city, if we sin
committed was a blessing for mein my life, and El Centro, and
Indio Valley, all that stuff.

(35:12):
But the reality of it is, whenyou have such broad experience,
that's the other thing theycount against you. Well, I'm
going to speak from myexperiences, just like you tend
to speak from yours. So if I'mspeaking to you about my
experiences, why are you tellingme that that's not true? Like,
that's the other piece of this?
Yes. Well, that's not true.

(35:34):
Well, I didn't say it was truefor everybody, it seems to say,
right, but there's a segment ofsociety that this is very true
for, right? I fall into I'm not,we aren't one, a one homogenous
group of people that have oneidea and one set of thinking and
one way of thinking, and one setof ideas. We are a

(35:55):
multicultural, diverse group ofblack people, right? people that
share the same pigmentation inour skin and various shades.
However, our experiences aredifferent, right? Where you live
could could affect yourexperiences. There are some
black folks that will tell youswear up and down it. This is

(36:16):
not a racist country. Right. Butthey live somewhere where
they've been discriminatedagainst their entire life. And
they start talking to you aboutwhat happened to you like,
Brian, what are you talkingabout? That was racist as hell?
Well, no, that's just how peopleare. Okay. Does that mean they
are not racist? Is that is thatwhen we go with this argument?

(36:41):
Is it that see, it seemssomewhat disingenuous to be,
right? I mean, in just like wedon't, or I will see me, just
like I will, I refuse to allowany white person to tell me what
racism is, what it looks like,how I should experience it, or

(37:01):
how I should feel about it.
Because you aren't the personthat's experiencing racism. And
I think our society, you know,even within, we have colorism
within our community, right?
light skinned versus dark skin.
That's an issue in ourcommunity. But you all wouldn't
know about it, because it's notyour community. Right? So if I'm
talking to you about it, and Isay, Well, look, colorism can

(37:24):
sometimes be as bad as racism,right, in its effect in a
deleterious effect that it hason the community, right, Krabs?
Man, you're right. You tell me,well, that's not true. Because
you're all black? Well, wouldyou really know and say, how
would you really know that?

(37:46):
Right, we're trying to addressthe issues in our community. And
to start we have to talk aboutthem. Because, uh, you know,
when I'd asked you to delve intothe recent writings on and this
may be a subject of anotherpodcast, but the recent writings
on how children from inner citycommunities, black and brown

(38:08):
children have worse PTSD thanpeople that have gone to war.
Right. We're not even dealingwith MRI and dealing with mental
health in our communities. Whoo.
That's a taboo. Yeah. Listen,every ready to cut you over
that? Right? No, that mean,ain't crazy. ain't crazy, man.
Wait a minute. I didn't say,Man, I said you might have some

(38:31):
issues that you want to talk tosomebody about, bro. So are we
talking about it, but I'm not apsychiatry psychology degree.
But I am not a psychologist orpsychiatrist. I will tell you
that I've been and it has helpedme in my life. Yeah. And I I
counsel people all the time.
seek some help. Because it ishelp full Yeah. No, yeah, it

(38:57):
really is.

Terence Shigg (38:58):
And I think one of the things that we were
talking about and even talkingabout the the contract with
black America, it's almost as ifwe need a contract amongst black
Americans ourselves to go Okay,even though we're not a
homogenous group with the samebeliefs and the same
experiences. We have allexperienced and homogenous

(39:22):
system or a systemic system thathas not been in our best
interest. I'll put it, I'll putit and

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (39:31):
you always do.

Terence Shigg (39:32):
Yeah. And as

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (39:33):
I don't put it nice.

Terence Shigg (39:36):
It's a gift. It's a gift. And the absolute The,
the fact that we have all beenaffected by this system, means
that we need to come together toacknowledge that system
together. And and like I said,the problem when we have those

(39:59):
that say Well, that systemdoesn't even doesn't even exist.
Gives fuel to the fire of thosewho say, Well, I don't I don't
have to have that conversationbecause see that person over
there says it doesn't exist. Idon't think it exists. That
person looks like you andtherefore, I don't have to have
it because they agree with me.
I'm like, whoo, that's a, youjust went right. A different
logic. Exactly. illogicaltheory. Yeah, to get to this

(40:23):
illogical conclusion. Right.
This is a Is this a logicquestion?

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (40:29):
Right.
No basic inductive, reasoningskills whatsoever,

Terence Shigg (40:34):
and no common sense in that era whatsoever.

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (40:38):
None.
Zilch.

Terence Shigg (40:41):
All of us don't think the same. That's the
common sense bar, we don't havethe same belief. So just because
one person says that theybelieve it does not mean it is
true for all right,

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (40:52):
which, which is my, I guess, my formal
training as both a lawenforcement guy, and
additionally, as an attorney hashas cemented, but I don't know
if I've always been this way,you might be able to tell me, I
don't know. You knew me when Iwas young. And then when I grew
up, right. So you, you were agreat impetus to help him he

(41:13):
grew up in a whole lot of areas,right. I'm out there 21 22
render route with all hisauthority and a gun. And I think
I was fair to people in mostcases. But my temper, you know,
to me, and you counsel me onmultiple occasions, I don't
think I violate anybody'srights. But I didn't have the
easiest temper. You know what Imean, I didn't have the most

(41:35):
relaxed temperament. I was cool,until you start to act the fool.
Once you hit fool, I was foolwhich, right? But, you know,

Terence Shigg (41:46):
you have to have Yeah, from them. Even from
growing up where you grew up todoing the job that you do that
you did. We all have to havethat switch. It's just what
levels that switch that that theparameters in that, that switch
have? Absolutely, depending onour environment.

Shawn B. McCullers (42:04):
Absolutely.
But I I'm grateful to you, man,you know, I love you. I tell
anybody in the world. I love mybig bro. You say? Real talk.
Because you I mean, from thetime I got there, you know what
I mean? You You were theexample. Right? And, and I know
you're going through your ownpersonal growth, and so on and
so forth. But I've never onceseen you angry, you know,

(42:26):
they're saying we, we 20 someplus years into this thing,
right into this brotherhood. AndI think that the youth on this
crabs in a barrel tip, they needthat, right? They need those
coping mechanisms, they needthose skills. So I try to be
reflective. And even, you know,we sometimes comment on the same

(42:48):
issues on Facebook, you put ityour way, I put it my way. I'm
usually straight in Look, that'sdumb, right? And here's why it's
dumb. Right? And it's gonna befactual. Right? Yeah, cuz now I
tend to argue from only facts.
Right? I will identify myopinion, right? But the factual

(43:08):
substance of what I'm arguing isgoing to be informed. And it's
going to be informed by mereading across platforms,
learning, watching things acrosstown, like Fox News. But I'm
gonna watch it from time to timebecause I need to see what's
going on. So that my, my opinioncan be informed. Right? And if I
have those arguments, I'm youknow, I was in one back and

(43:29):
forth, or Facebook, but I try touse it as a platform to give
people information. Right. So ifyou have an issue, I'm going to
say what I have to say, don'tget me wrong, but I'm also going
to try to give you information.
Now if you're not open to theinformation, because I always
invite Listen, if you havesomething factual, please show
me. Let me check it out. Right,because my opinion can be

(43:51):
informed as well. Right bysomething that I hadn't
considered previously. Becauseit wasn't available to me or I
didn't know to go to I'm not onStormers and Breitbart, I
actually checked out Breitbartfrom time to time. But you know,
I'm not on the rest of themjoin. So I would, I would
appreciate I've been trying toreach out and understand and

(44:12):
it's something as a community,we really have to do if we're
going to get out of this crabsin a barrel thing. We have to
inform our opinions. We have tostop believing that our
experience is the onlyexperience. I have to live
through my experience. I have tobenefit from my experience if
I'm smart, right. But I do haveto realize that my experiences

(44:34):
and everybody's experience, andI can have my experiences and my
opinions informed based uponinteracting and listening to
somebody else's experience orthe information that they're
presenting. I may agree or notagree, but it's information in a
toolbox. Life is about buildingthis toolbox. Life is about

(44:56):
informing your opinion throughyour experiences, right? That's
how you it's called growth.
Right? We grow, we become betterthrough our experiences, at
least. Theoretically, right? Weshould be becoming better making
better decisions, more wisedecisions that render better

(45:16):
outcomes for not only you butyour family, because now we're
at the age where we have kids,some of us have grown children,
where that Oh, oh, but we stillhave they still are children.
Right? They still are supposedto come to us with guidance,
which with this crabs in abarrel thing.
One of the things I talked aboutit, we'll go into this more

(45:38):
detail folks about this contractwith a black American. But one
of the pieces that it does givethat I like is that it talks
about the systematic, rippingaway of black males from the
family structure, and howwhether it's a nuclear family or
extended family, it's importantto have that male influence. But
the question becomes, are you apositive influence in this

(46:02):
mixture? And how can you be ifyou're not willing to talk to
anybody about all the traumathat you experience?

Terence Shigg (46:08):
Yes, yes. Because just by nature of having, being
present isn't enough, meaningjust being a male in the
household isn't enough, is theidea is to be a, an example, a
good example, an example ofexcellence, so that that young
brother that's growing up inthat household that has his
father there knows what it'ssupposed to look like, and what

(46:31):
he's supposed to do and has someguidance. And even if he's not
in the household has arelationship. Yes, right, has
somebody that looks like himthat he can go back to. And I
think, kind of going back towhat you were talking about as
far as your growth, and what Ihave learned in my personal
journey, and what I always sawin you, was the fact that, and

(46:55):
we, I talked about it withseveral people all the time,
that whole idea of cognitivedissonance, meaning the idea of
it being, I think of it simplyas being hard or impossible for
some people to hold two oppositeideas in their mind at the same
time, which means they have to,they have to subscribe to one or
the other. They can't hold on.
All right, the people that I'vetalked to, and you being one of

(47:20):
them, and I'm beginning torecognize my buddy bood, Chris
is another one of them. Yes, thething that I've noticed is, we
have the ability to hold twototally opposite ideas in our
head at the same time withoutbeing threatened. Running, you
can have your opinion, you cantell me and it can be totally

(47:43):
opposite of mine. But that's notgoing to take away from who I
am.

Shawn B. McCullers (47:48):
Absolutely, and doesn't diminish me as a
person

Terence Shigg (47:51):
at all right?
That's your idea. And Iunderstand that that's based on
your experiences, and what youhave drawn from those
experiences and used as a filterto see what's going on now. And
that in no way diminishes myexperiences in my field. I can
hold both of those ideas andsame time and I can fight I can
fight with you on some of yours,even though I don't agree with

(48:13):
all of yours. Absolutely.
They'll hold my principles.
Absolutely. And I think thatthere is a and I think in order
to get out of this bucket, morepeople have to be able to do
that they have to get out ofthat. That mindset that it's
going to destroy them mentallyif they listen to another idea.
Mm hmm. It's gonna enjoy themmentally, if they give a little

(48:36):
bit to say, Okay, well, maybethat systemic racism thing that
you say, maybe there's a pieceof that, that I can agree with?
Because that's not going to meanthat I'm evil and horrible. And
I'm, you know, I'm basically acard carrying kkk member,
because I said that systemicracism exists.

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (48:59):
Right?
Exactly. It doesn't diminishyou. And there's, you know,
there guys, and usually the guyswere having these conversations
with our guys that we work with,right? We worked in a field that
was predominantly white andHispanic males. That was when we
worked with, we were very fewand far between in terms of
black men working in US borderpatrol, yes. Oh, however, and I
frustrated a lot of them becauseI am ceiling on the ideas that I

(49:22):
represent. Now, if I agree withsomething I'll say I agree with
it doesn't matter that I agreewith this part of it. But you're
forgetting this part, this partand this part, right? And you
have to make room for that. Ifyou want to have a real
discussion. I'm about havingthese discussions. Let's have
them. They go hurt. They go. Butwe used to have these

(49:42):
discussions on a midnight shiftall the time. You didn't in the
process and said, you know whatI mean? Will black folks do
this? why they do that? Youknow, they're saying, Well, you
know why white folks do X, Y, Z?
I'm really I really want toknow, you know what I'm saying?
And like I tell them I've nevermistreated anybody. I don't care
if you're upset and angry,you're still my brother, if you

(50:03):
need something from me, I'mgonna give it to you. If I have
it as yours, Carrie, even was itI just disagree with on
principle because I thinkthey're moronic. Even those
folks, I am going to do for youwhatever I can, because we have
a bond that supersedes that wedon't have to agree on
everything. Right? Right. I'venever seen you try to impress

(50:25):
me. I've never seen you try toimpress other people in my
press. Right. So I notice goodin you. The question is, Do you
notice Gooding? Do youunderstand that? Me giving you
the benefit of the experiencesthat I've had? I'm not talking
about what I think. Because I'mout in my community. Right? I'm

(50:46):
not talking about what I thinkgoes on in court, because I'm in
court. Right? You know, what I'msaying? Or at least I was over
there much these days. You knowwhat I mean?

Terence Shigg (50:54):
And I think maybe, maybe, when you said
that, one of the things thatcame to mind to me is I think
people don't appreciate the thelevel of respect and, and, and
power that you are giving themby sharing those things with
them. Because if I did not care,and if I did not sit, give you a

(51:17):
level of trust in this in thisrelationship. I would not talk
to you. I remember exactly. Inever tell people that will ask
me Hey, is there something wrongbetween us? And the first thing
I tell them, you'll know whenthere's a problem between me and
you? Because I won't talk toyou. And there it is? Boy,
that's how you know when I'mtalking to you.

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (51:37):
We good? We say, you know,

Terence Shigg (51:42):
and so I think I when you said that? it just
dawned on me, it's just likethat the what else things were
like, the Holy Spirit kind oftaps on you. Because that's the
point. The point is, it's notrecognized when we're given it
as, okay, I'm giving thisinformation to you, I'm, I'm
giving you this time out of mylife, I'm giving you this kernel

(52:05):
of my experience, because Itrusted you are going to do
something you're going to takeit in and respected for what it
is. And if I don't think you dothat, I will wait.

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (52:17):
I just told one, man, I said, Listen,
Bro, I talked to you, because Ibelieve you're a good person.
Yeah, I'm giving you it doesn'tmean just because you you post
racist memes that you're Raven,kkk member. I don't think that
about you. But I'm telling youthat the meme that you're
posting has racist implications.
And they are speaking for you.

(52:39):
Right? It just like the meansthat I post speak for me that I
am a proponent of fact, don'tcome at me with your theories. I
take the time to talk to you.
Because I believe it's worth theinvestment of my time and
effort. Yes, right. Because Iknow you're good person, I want
you to be a better person. Justlike I'm striving to be a better
person. I don't know what it'slike to be white. Tough, dude. I

(53:02):
don't know what it's like to bea white guy. Yeah, but I can
imagine how you might feel rightnow. Right? I imagine that
you're scared. You're scared foryour kids, your wife, your
family? Because you don't knowwhat this new America is gonna
look like. Right? And you've hadall the advantages, whether
you're willing to admit it ornot. That's true. Right? I my

(53:23):
theory on racism is Listen, youmad because you fucked up all
this privilege. You're lifestill ain't shit. Don't be mad
at me. Right? But the realityis, I'm investing in you, if I
take my time to talk to youabout these issues, type all
these damn responses. I gotstuff to do. But I'm doing it

(53:43):
because I love you. I share abug with you that I respect and
appreciate. So I'm trying togive you an another view. So you
can see where I'm coming from.
So maybe at a time when it'scritical and important in your
life, that you have someperspective, that perspective is
there, and vice versa? BecauseI'm getting it from you. I

(54:06):
asked, please tell me how youcame to your conclusion. I am
genuinely interested. I canunderstand it.

Terence Shigg (54:13):
I'm not trying to set you up. I really want to
know because that's what I wouldexpect from you to me. If
absolute is asked me how did Icome to this conclusion and I'm
drawn out for you, I'll give youmy thought process. And your I
and I really I want that to bethe thing that that people take
away from this is recognize whenthose people that are your

(54:35):
friends or are youracquaintances are connected to
you are are investing in youthat information in that time.
There are those of us out therethat are doing it, because we
love you and that we want togive you that perspective so
that even planting that littleseed in the community as well as

(54:56):
outside the community so thatthose people knowNo. Okay, I
know the information as I toldsomebody one time, I can't
unhear that, right? You can'tunhear it's there, it's planted.
Now what you do with it istotally up to you. Absolutely.
But in order for this nation toheal, in order for our

(55:17):
communities to heal, we have tostart giving each other that
type of awareness, that type ofbenefit of the doubt that type
of perspective to know thatwe're in this one, we're in this
to win it and we're in thistogether, because I'm not doing
this just because I have nothingbetter to do. I'm doing right

(55:38):
because this is right, I wasbuilt, this is absolute to do.
And that's it, do it, whetheryou are there.

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (55:45):
That's it, I'm gonna keep pushing, you
gotta be it is because I feelit, earnest me to give
information to people that looklike me, so that they can be
better so that they can havebetter experiences, which means
I have to talk to people thatlook like you, right? Because if
you need to understand, or ifwe're ever going to have a

(56:06):
mutually beneficial exchangeover time and a lasting change,
it requires us to go outside ofour own race, culture, religion,
group, sex, what have you tounderstand others on a human
level so that we can see them asequally human. And therefore,

(56:26):
hopefully, society will followand therefore lasting change. I
don't want my kids fighting thesame battle. Yes, they I don't
want my babies my grandkids tobe fighting the same battles.
Yeah, cuz as long as I'm alive,you put a finger on mine, I'm
coming. You got to see me. Yes,you might not make it to court.
I'm gonna keep the stack. We allknow how I am. Yes, you may not

(56:48):
making the court if I get youbefore they get t. So why is it
that we want a society with usness, where we feel when anybody
feels that that's necessary?
Yes, based on how someone looks,where they come from, what their
religion, their beliefs, whatthey like or dislike their
sexuality, who the hell cares?

(57:08):
We're human beings. And while Idon't have everybody else's
agenda, I'm going to tell you,when I flew up to Minnesota to
hear Angela Davis speak,September 2019, I believe at the
University of Minnesota, shekept her whole life stack. You
know what I mean? And one of themost true, the most true, the

(57:29):
truisms that I got from her isshe said, All struggle is
interconnected. So if I'm not aproponent of gay rights, and I'm
not a proponent of unisexbathrooms, and I'm not a
proponent of, you know, I'm antiabortion, so on and so forth.
Listen, all of those strugglesare connected. The women's

(57:52):
suffrage movement, which theyjust celebrated the 100th
anniversary, right? Didn't comefrom a white women. That
struggle came from theabolitionist struggle for people
to vote in general. Yes, right.
And out of that came themovement for women that had a
right to vote, because you allwere considered property as
well, whether you were white, orblack. So all struggle is

(58:13):
interconnected, whether we likeit or not. That is the reality
of it. Now, black folks willtell you, and I'm one of them
that will tell you don't hijackcivil rights for your own
agenda. I have a problem withthat. But I can speak freely
about that and understand thatjust struggle was important to
you. You know, I can understandthat, however, and I might be

(58:36):
willing to help you. You knowwhat I mean? It just depends on
how the issue evolve. However, Ido understand that there are
people that don't think andbelieve like I do, and they have
just as much right to think andbelieve in the way that they do.
As I have to think and believein the way that I do. Now, when
we act on those thoughts andbeliefs. They might cross a
line, right? If you treat peoplepoorly because you believe

(59:00):
something about them to be truebecause they belong to a
specific race group culture orreligion. That's very different.
You become an "ist" in mycategory, a racist, ethno
centrist, you know, a sexistbecause you're acting on those
disbeliefs or thosestereotypical beliefs that may
not be true to people thatyou're you're actually dealing
with. We have to recognize thehuman condition. We have to be

(59:23):
human. And in our community,we're fighting so many battles
on so many fronts. Why do I wantto fight somebody that looks
like me? Yes, yes. I want you towin.

Terence Shigg (59:36):
Right. And that's it's imperative, if never before
even more so now, because we gotthe stage. We got the mic. It's
our turn. It's our time to say,okay, we've, we've waited. We've

(59:57):
petitioned we've marched Okay,we've gotten better. But now
it's time to do the work thatwe've started a long time ago by
our forefathers, but it's timeto actually get these things
done. It's not time to. Andthat's the, that is why now,

(01:00:18):
above all other times, as agroup, we got to, we got to get
rid of that bucket. And it'salmost as if, and I love the
power of because everybody and Italked to we talked to lots of
different people. And I think,what are the common things that
I hear and people understandingand people joining in this? This

(01:00:43):
I'm not even call it a fight.
I'm gonna call it a battle a waris they've been outside the
bucket, they know what it lookslike. Right? Right. They know
what the scene looks like, theywill go back to the beach,
right? I go into the pot, right?
And once you know that, and onceyou see that, you know that it's
possible. That whole you wantmore people experienced that

(01:01:06):
it's not okay, even if you putme back in the pot in the in the
bucket. And if I can get oneout, I'm gonna let him go.
Because I know what's out there.

Shawn B. McCullers (01:01:13):
Absolutely.
I want him to win, I want him tohit the ocean.

Terence Shigg (01:01:17):
And that's, that's what we really got to
come together. And that's why Ilike to contract with black
America, I still want to go evenfurther and have us have a
contract amongst black Americansto say this is what this is. And
again, people always say, Okay,well, you can't demand or tell.
I don't care if that worddoesn't really bet particular
word doesn't matter. To me. Whatmatters to me is that we

(01:01:40):
understand our sharedexperiences. We understand our
shared history, and weunderstand our shared wealth,
and, and worth and, and allthose things that we have. Not
all those things that we havehidden from ourselves that now

(01:02:00):
it's our time to actually beable to embrace those, and use
those together as a people toget to where we should be
already. Because absolutely thathole

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (01:02:12):
and eliminate and eliminate
ignorance. Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
It there's no reason to remainignorant in this society. No,
every day, we have a device inour hands, if not all of us, the
majority of us that can answeralmost any question you have
with factual information. Right?

(01:02:33):
There is no reason to remainignorant. This this this
contract with black America isdeep, we're going to talk about
it. It has some seriousimplications and some serious
ability. It needs to be refinedin some ways. But it is a great
jumping off point. It is agreat, you know, one of the

(01:02:55):
things that we talk about Terryis that we talk about the
movement and struggle, and thefight for civil rights and
marching and making demands. Butwe don't have any concrete
demands. We don't have auniversal ask for black
Americans. This is a greatjumping off point, Terry, and

(01:03:15):
I've been discussing this foryears. Man, I think back to the
early 90s, when we were talkingabout well known to the early
2000s, we talking about openingup group homes, to get young
people in different states toget young people to be able to
transfer between states underthe social social justice system

(01:03:36):
in the social work system. Sothey could see that they could
make it in an environment thatsomebody didn't create for them.
That was different than wherethey came from. Because
oftentimes I saw we need to seefreedom. And I think we
recognize that even back then,is you just need to know you can
make it right. You can make itanywhere. You can do anything.
It's within you. You just haveto have the drive desire and

(01:03:59):
commitment to make it happen andbe disciplined. And it's
something your lifetime is goingto be a workout exercise and how
to be disciplined. You know, Igot a tattooed on my arm,
because I try to remind myselfto be more discipline, right?
Because the next thing that'scoming is mastery, right?
Because you need to disciplineyourself to learn something

(01:04:22):
that's going to allow you to besustainable. You we have a
benefit in this society is asdepraved as it might be, as run
down as it may be as inequitableas it may be. We have an
opportunity right now to makethat change. And we have a
global opportunity. Talk aboutthings coming full circle, we

(01:04:44):
have a global opportunity. Thiscontract with black America. I
love the way it starts. And Iwant them to develop a piece
with with go even further withbusiness mentorship, right to
teach people how to createglobal brands right? We can all
benefit. It's not It's enoughout there for everybody. But

(01:05:04):
it's enough out there foreverybody. We don't have to stop
somebody else's dream to fulfillour own. That's a fallacy,
right? That's a fallacy is not afinite, it's not a finite
resource. Exactly. Right.
Exactly. Success is not a finiteresource. It is it is unbounded.
If you can harvest it, right,it's unbounded. If you can be
disciplined in your pursuit ofit, it's unbounded in

(01:05:26):
opportunities that it willpresent for your family and
yourself. If you can harness it,and you had a mentorship to
guide it and grow it, it's justunfathomable how far it can go.
And that's in us as a people isin everybody. But particularly
Yes, because we're born fromstruggle. We don't know what
it's like to not struggle. So wealways work hard, contrary to

(01:05:50):
popular belief, contrary tostereotypical belief, we are
hard working people, right? Mostmost work most people that are
working poor black people, andbrown people, right working poor
working 2345. So that lazinessstuff is a moniker that doesn't
belong, right? It's a monikerthat has no home here. But we
have to make it abundantly clearthat it has no home here by

(01:06:13):
fulfilling your dreams and thiscontract.

Terence Shigg (01:06:18):
All right, we're gonna. So is there anything that
you wanted to add about? And Ireally I like the week round it
up without even trying totalking about how to get past
this whole crab in the bucketmentality. Other. But is there
anything else that you wanted tomention before?

Shawn B. McCullers Esq. (01:06:40):
If you are within the salad, his voice,
please open your hearts and openyour minds. But more
importantly, open your ears. Ifsomebody else is taking the time
to pour into you what theirexperiences are not as a series
of complaints. But in an effortto try to understand and come to
some resolution. Please bewilling to listen. Open your

(01:07:02):
heart, your mind and most mostof all your ears and listen,
because what they're saying maynot be readily apropos for you,
but you don't know when you canuse that tool out of your
toolbox down the road. We canall be better for being being
able to listen, sometimes.

Terence Shigg (01:07:18):
Yes. All right, brother.

Unknown (01:07:20):
Do the same a long way.
And not to do what I can doallthings. I can do. I'm not afraid
of the moment. I'm not afraid toget up in the morning I gotta do

(01:07:41):
it for Kobe. Zoning I know I'mgoing to take you whatever
control is coming your opponent.
I gotta a gift and I'm startingto own it.