Soundings February 16 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Soundings, a public affairs presentation of iHeartMedia. Each
week we have an ecumenical discussion and reflection on the
scriptures and how they apply to life and the world.
My name is Shannon Jamal Hollomans, and I'm the pastor
at First Congregational United Church of Christ in Lowell, Michigan,
about thirty minutes east of Grand Rapids. We have two

(00:22):
of our regulars here and I will invite them to
introduce themselves, starting with Father Mike.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
I am A name is Father Mike Kirkshank. I'm a
Paulish father, Roman Catholic priest. I'm serving at the Cathedral
Saint Andrew in the heartside neighborhood of Grand Rapids.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Good morning. I am Reverend Ruth Bell Olson and I
serve at Mayflower Congregational Church on the southeast side of Grinch.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
It's good morning. How are you both today?

Speaker 4 (00:47):
Good? Good?

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Good?

Speaker 4 (00:48):
How are you?

Speaker 1 (00:49):
I'm doing pretty well. Yeah. I saw the movie Conclave recently.
I'm trying to watch some of the Oscar nominated films
before uh before the show coming up in a month
or so, and I thought it was a really excellent film.
Father Mike I'm wondering if you'd seen it, and do

(01:09):
you have any opinions on it.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yes, I have seen it. I have seen it, and
I liked it. I liked it. I know there's there's
different Catholic takes upon it, and but I think if
if if you look at it, that it's.

Speaker 4 (01:27):
It's not a true story.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
It's it's a drama based on you know, uh, you know,
true true events that happened, like a conclave, and you know,
I think some people were upset about sort of showing
some of the the conflicts that happen and like undercutting

(01:50):
and things like that without without giving too much away.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
But but I think it's a drama.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
It was intrigued me, and uh, I'm sure about a
lot of the things that happened, maybe maybe not don't
actually happen, but there's some there's some truth, there's some
kernel of truth to it that they dramatized, and so
I think if you keep that in mind, then.

Speaker 4 (02:14):
It's it's a it's an enjoyable film.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
It's it's uh intriguing and and uh, it definitely caught
my attention the whole time.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I loved it. I love it. The visual beauty of
it and the color and the artistry, and I think
that is something that in your world, father might the
the artistry and the attention to to detail and ritual

(02:45):
and I think, you know, the way I grew up
in a more conservative Christian environment, we missed so much
of that. Just yeah. I mean, I realized the movie
is the dramatization and it's not necessarily the colors and
they're all the exact outfits and all that kind of stuff.
But I was really struck with I was really struck

(03:07):
by that.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, And I thought the script seemed really well written.
I watch a lot of films and and really it
just stands out when there's a story that really pulls
you in and makes you want to, like, you know,
move every moment of the story along with the actors

(03:30):
that are portraying these characters. So yeah, I don't know
anything about how realistic it was, but I thought it was.
It was a good story, it was well written, it
was engaging.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
So our scripture passage for today comes from the Book
of Luke, chapter six, and I will read verses seventeen
through twenty six. Starting at verse seventeen, Jesus came down
from the mountain with them, and on a level place
with a great crowd of his disciples, and a great

(04:04):
multitude of people from all Judea, Jerusalem, and the coast
of Tire and Sidon. They had come to hear him
and to be healed of their diseases. And those who
were troubled with uncre clean spirits were cured. And everyone
in the crowd was trying to for the power came
out from him, and he healed all of them. Then

(04:25):
he looked up at his disciples and said, Blessed are
you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will build.
Blessed are you who weep, now, for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they
exclude you, revile you and defame you on account of

(04:48):
the Son of Man. Rejoice on that day and leap
for joy. For surely your reward is great in heaven.
For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets. But
woe to you who are rich, for you have received
your consolation. Woe to you who are full now, for

(05:09):
you will be hungry. Woe to you who are laughing now,
for you will mourn and weep woe to you when
all speak well of you, for that is how their
ancestors treated the false prophets. This is the gospel of
our Lord Jesus Christ, thanks to God, some blessings and
some woes. I should have started by saying that this

(05:32):
passage begins Jesus had just been up on a mountain
praying with some of his disciples. So when it says
he came down from the mountain, he is just leaving
prayer and he's with those he has called those closest
to him.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Correct, and that this is referred to as the Sermon
on the Plain versus the Sermon on the mount because
he came down from the mountain, and that there's kind
of this interesting leveling sort of thing happening. Obviously it's
not verbatim the Sermon on the mount but clearly that
same things. I just wondered if there was something about

(06:08):
the topography that's kind of a note here.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yeah, I hadn't heard that, but yeah, I wonder I've
heard this called the sermon and plane and then Matthew
the Sermon in the mount. I hadn't thought about the
topography of like whether I don't know whether he's teaching
sort of as one of their own, more so in
this one than in Matthew, or he's teaching from like
a higher level.

Speaker 4 (06:30):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
It's an interesting God, I know that. I mean, this
is sort of Luke's version of the beatitude. So Matthew
has his own from the Sermon on the Mount and
there are there are eight of them, there are eight blesseds,
and then here in Matthew there are four, but there

(06:54):
are four woes Matthew. In Luke there are four blessed
blesseds and four woes. And Matthew doesn't have any will.
It's just the eight, the eight blesseds.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
And I think that the that the.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
In some ways Luke's the attitudes are more challenging. I
think just one example is, depending on the on the
translation of Matthew will say something like blessed or you
who are poor in spirits, and Luke says blistered you
who are poor. So it's a much more drastic, sort

(07:34):
of concrete way of understanding.

Speaker 4 (07:38):
What we're what we're called to be, what we're called
to do.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
But but yeah, anyway, just to I guess again to
contextualizes even more. Like this is Luke's version of the
g Attitudes versus Matthews. It's very similar, but but there's
some differences, one being that Luke Luke also like very

(08:03):
clearly gives the woes of like what you know, what's
the not only how blessed you are for doing these things,
but like what are the consequences if you don't do
them or if you do the opposite.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
So, yeah, Luke Luke can be challenging in that way.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
I think, how much do you think Luke is echoing
back to Mary's magnificat? How much do you think those
are in kind of in concert because she does have
the blessing in the woe to some degree, right, and
this leveling those down, you know, down come the proud

(08:42):
and uplifted are are those who struggle. There's so much
echoing of that in this passage in my mind. I mean,
I could be wrong, but that's what I'm hearing. And
how much of Luke's audiences would be thinking that too,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, yeah, definitely when when he you know, the poor,
the hungary, those who weep, you know that that immediately
does bring the magnificat to mind and Mary's words, and
Luke was I'm sure intentional about that. I noticed too
that he's pretty intentional about introducing the multitude of people

(09:22):
right at the beginning there, right, who are there? And
he doesn't say Galilee, even though we know the disciples
were from Galilee, all except Judas. But he says people
from Judea and Jerusalem and the coast of Tire and Sidon.
So he's he's saying there were all kinds of people here,
not just the people that Jesus grew up among or

(09:43):
that Jesus typically preached among in Galilee, but people from
all over. And again, I think pointing to how large
the scope of jesus ministry was and was intended to
be from the very beginning, right, that includes all people,
not just those that we think are on the inside

(10:04):
or those who are chosen.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
And they came to be healed, I mean, excuse me,
really specifies that they were troubled. Yeah, this was a
crowd coming from all over that you know, unclean spirits
and diseases. And how does that how does that color
Jesus's words?

Speaker 4 (10:23):
Yeah, I wonder if it's like.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
So he heals and he teaches right, And I guess
he just maybe takes that opportunity.

Speaker 4 (10:37):
In which people come.

Speaker 3 (10:39):
People come to him in this instance anyway, not not
necessarily because they want to learn from him, but they
want to be healed of their affliction. And I guess
I'm thinking of a doctor in a hospital. Somebody comes,
the doctor heals them, But the doctor doesn't just send

(10:59):
that person home without any kind of instructions. There's a
there's instructions like how do you maintain this health? How
do you maintain this well being that you've now been
given by the surgery or this treatment or whatever.

Speaker 4 (11:15):
And I think Jesus is doing something similar. He's healing.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
Physically, but you know, as we know he's I mean
certainly he's he's spiritually healing them as well, and he's
he's he's giving them those kind of doctor's instructions. You know,
go out and do these things. If you want to
stay stay healthy, stay well, stay close to me and
my kingdom. Then you know these are my these are

(11:42):
the doctor's orders I guess.

Speaker 4 (11:43):
For you to do.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Would the message have been different if Jesus was like
like he did in the go to a home of
a wealthy person and had a beautiful meal. Would the
message be the same or different? Is this back to
my leveling level of the playing field? Serve it on

(12:07):
the plane. I'm kind of stuck in this metaphor. But
is there this kind of bigger message about I don't know,
you know, equality or disparity or something that a different
would have been different to a different audience. And I'd

(12:28):
like to think, no, you know, I'd like to think
that there's this wholeness, right, It's not about happiness, it's
about wholeness in the kingdom. And I think in my
context and a very affluent, really lovely people that come
to my material I serve, and I sometimes I get

(12:50):
stuck on this, like what is the message in this context?
Because people aren't we're in hungry. Yet we all are
some times in a larger sense, right we all. I
don't care how yeah, wealthy and materially blessed you are,
you're going to have disease and you're going to have

(13:10):
death and you're going to have awful things. So is
the message the same and sub regards I don't know.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
And I think we all we all know what it's
like to live in spiritual poverty. I mean, I would
hope we all have enough self reflection to know that
right that we all need the power of God. We
need the power of love and light and hope in
our life that Jesus came to bring. But yeah, it's it.

(13:38):
It looks so different in our lives. But you're right,
pastor Ruth. There are some things that we cannot escape
and and death is one of them. Disease is one
of them. And again that's the great leveler, the create
the great planes that we all sit on, right is
life and death. And that our lives are really in
the hands of God that we all rely you know,

(14:01):
for me, I really hear just this hearkening in all
of these words that Jesus said to rely upon God,
because God's the only one we can rely upon. We
can't rely upon our riches, those things we use to
comfort ourselves, those idols that we cling to to make
us feel like we have something, because because these things

(14:23):
will always level us all and bring us to our
knees when when we lose someone close to us, when
we're facing a debilitating illness, Right that that ultimately, before God,
we're all humbled and all in a state of poverty
of some sort.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
I think certainly depending on the audience, not just in
Jesus's day, but I think in our day, as you're
kind of putting on pastor ruth, like, we'll hear this
message in different in different ways.

Speaker 4 (14:53):
I think for you know, for somebody who who actually
is poor, or is.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Hungry, or is weeping, or feel excluded or insulted, it's
like it's it's a message of hope really that you
know that it's.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
You're in this state, but there is.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
A kingdom that's coming that will fulfill you, will complete you,
will give you that joy that you don't that you
don't have right now.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
Whereas, yeah, I think if it's if it's some if
it's to.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
A crowd that doesn't isn't currently experiencing these things, isn't poor,
isn't hungry, isn't has it doesn't have a reason to
weep or feel excluded, then I think it's I think
it's a kind of challenge to be willing, be willing
to at least identify with those people, to be willing

(15:55):
to feel those things whether or not you have to
or not, but be willing to be.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
Poor in a sense that you're.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
You're not relying on material goods, willing to be hungry
in the sense that you're you know, you're not just
thinking about what your next meal is going to be
or how you're going to you know, what restaurants are
going to go to, but be willing to I guess

(16:30):
going back to the idea of leveling, which I really
like here is is trying to identify with those who
actually feel this way. However you can do that, I don't,
you know. I think for every person that's different that
maybe it is, you know, fast thing for a day,
so you can identify with people in a war torn

(16:52):
country that don't have access to food, or for you know,
I don't know, going to a funeral and being with
people or who are who are weeping. But I think
some ways in which we can identify with those people
who are actually going through these things. I think there's
the challenge for for all of us because that's the

(17:14):
there's a blessedness in doing that and identifying with those
who who don't have really the option that's just their
state of life.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. We I have a
dear friend who's a pastor in Goma, the Democratic Republic
of Congo, which has been, if you've been following news,
a really hellish place to be last little bit, and
there was a there were a couple of days there
where we had not heard from him, not sure if

(17:48):
he was caught up in some of the horrific violence,
and you know, it can be very debilitating, you know, like,
of course I'm praying, but I'm just feeling like this,
I can't, you know, almost like I can't function, which
I don't think is a bad thing to feel, and
then doing some of that self talk like well, I'm okay,

(18:11):
my family, it's okay, everyone's okay. I am not in
Goma right now. I have been. I can visualize that,
I've I've been in his home, I know the people
he ministers to, and to feel that compassion and identification
it's terrifying and frightening, and at the same time, I'm okay,

(18:32):
I don't live there. I live here right These are
those a foot in each world, which I think in
some ways we're called to to not just turn a
blind eye to suffering. But then you can't, I know.
You know, I've heard from some people that are that
are fine, but they're living with this constant terror about
what's happening in our world and our country, and then

(18:53):
right then that's completely debilitating. So what is that balance
between taking on the pain of the world in a
way that's appropriate Yet I think that's tricky. And I
remember hearing these stories after nine to eleven. One woman
in particular that just could not function. She was not
in New York, she was not in Pennsylvania. You know,
she was watching the news and hearing the stories and

(19:15):
completely lost her ability to function because of her terror.
And I thought, well, that doesn't help anybody. What is
that to roll up our sleeves, you know, theoretically or
figuratively or practically to identify with the pain, but to
not take it on to the point which were not helpful.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, and that's something as religious leaders we often have
to do. Right this past week, I had two funerals.
Neither person was a member of my congregation. But you know,
entering into a family's pain and grief is tricky and
knowing how do we serve them faithfully and walk the

(20:00):
valley of the shadow of death with them while also
not being overwhelmed by grief and despair? Right, That's that's
I think the key. The key to living the way
God has called us to live. And that's something you know,
I don't know that I always do well, but but
that's where God's called us to dwell with the light
of the hope of the gospel message, right that that

(20:22):
God is with us and our grief, that God is
with us and our pain, and testifying to that consistently.
But it's hard to do sometimes in circumstances, it's easy
to be overwhelmed.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, I think that's that's a balance, right, that we
all try to strike every day. I think of being
I guess I got to think of it as like
not being so attached to things that it really yeah,
it debilitates us, but being still being very connected to things.

(20:57):
And I think I know a lot of people who
have had issues with that, and since the new presidential term,
of being upset about certain policies and and be really
being really anxious and not knowing what to do about it.
I think that's the one of the hard things.

Speaker 4 (21:17):
And I think the more you know, in some ways
some people we just need to like not watch the
news so much.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
And but you know, but being in touch with what's
what's happening, but not letting off a whelmas and I
think that's just it's a tricky thing, but I think, yeah,
I think maybe the one of the lessons from this,
from this scripture is that being able to because really

(21:53):
the blesseds of the people are are just referring to
those people who have not essentially, And and.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
I think that if we can identify with.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
The have nots and be in like a true solidarity,
then it I think it can take away the anxiety
because I think it it allows us to do something
even spiritually, you know, to pray, of course is number one,
and and to be in solidarity with people who who

(22:28):
are being excluded or being discriminated against, or whatever that
might look like, to to do that, and and and
not to get into the game of of just just
being overwhelmed by what's what's happening. Just trying to focus

(22:50):
on how to how to be with the people who
are who are hurting, I think is maybe a good
lesson from this scripture.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
I think it's an old Joan Bias quote. Action is
the antidote to despair, and I think there are people
that are in despair on.

Speaker 4 (23:07):
All sides of the sides.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Of the globe and in all realms, But what's that
what's that next right thing I can do? And of
course prayer, I always say, prayer is the least you
can do, in the most you can do the same time,
and then what's that next right thing? Right, what's the
phone call to the congress representative, what's the donation to

(23:32):
the food pantry, what's the making the phone call to
the friend in need? But like, what's that next thing
when we're overwhelmed with despair, overwhelmed with the circumstances of
our life or the world, to say, what's that next
right thing I can do? And sometimes it's little and
sometimes it's more may be recalled something bigger and braver.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
I don't know, Yeah, I really like that. What's that
next right thing.

Speaker 4 (23:58):
I can do? Right?

Speaker 2 (24:01):
Baby steps?

Speaker 4 (24:01):
Sometimes yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Well, thank you both for such a good reflection on
this passage on behalf of Pastor Ruth and father Mike.
Thank you for joining us today, and we pray that
you have a blessed Sabbath.