Soundings February 23 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning and happy Sunday, and welcome to Soundings, a
public affairs presentation of iHeartMedia. Each week we have an
acumenical discussion on the scriptures from the Lectionary and how
they apply to life and to our world. I am
the Reverend Molly Boscher sometimes called Father Molly, depending in

(00:21):
which circles, and I serve Saint Andrew's Episcopal Church on
the north side of Grand Rapids. And we have two
of our regulars here this morning, and I would love
for Jessica to go first.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
I am Reverend Jessica Rivera Walker. I am the pastor
of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Holland, Michigan.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
And I am Beth Big. I'm the Director of Faith
Formation Saint Philip Neary Saint Anne Reed City, and the
director of Pastor Careen Outreach Saint Mary Saint Paul's Big Rapid.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
So how are y'all? This morning? We were just saying
that winter is this is the season where winter just
seems to continue on and on and on and on.
Yes and yes.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
In the center part of the stake, the state, the
snow machine has cranked out for us now, so we
get snow every day, every night. Snowplow guys are out
every day. My guy said, I have to sleep sometime.
I said, go sleep.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
We relate people.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
We record on on Mondays, and so we are just
recording after kind of this weekend's potential storm for us.
But we didn't get all that much snow. Did you
guys get a ton of snow baths?

Speaker 3 (01:37):
We did all weekend. All weekend we got snow.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
So what are you going to do in that snow bath?

Speaker 3 (01:46):
I've thought I'm driving it. I gotta go to work,
gotta go drive in that. So let's hop the kids
don't have school because they're on winter break here, but
let's hope.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Okay plow still did their thing. Yes, my are our
son does not have school today either. He goes back tomorrow.
But he was really hoping that we would get enough
snow or it would be cold enough so that his
his like daycare program would would be canceled. So he

(02:19):
was not He wasn't super happy about that this morning.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
You guys, Josica lives closer to Lake Michigan, so you
guys get a lot of Lake effect.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Holland does. Yeah, I live in Byron Center. But Holland
gets a lot like effect.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Isn't the Holland isn't the They say the mark is
is one thirty one? Are you on or are you
on the wrong side of one thirty one? I don't
know which one is which.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
I don't know. We've it seems that whenever Holland is
getting a lot, we still get a good amount environ Center.
I had a church where I drove back into Holland
yesterday afternoon and it was there wasn't a lot coming down,

(03:07):
but it was very windy and so and that's what
I really don't like, because the snow blows and then
all of a sudden, you're like in a white out.
So that is I think, really don't think.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
That between Zealand and Holland when it's blowing, it's terrifying.
It is because yes, it's just like there's just fields
and you're mm, yeah, You're just not sure what's going
to happen. Right. I know, it was pretty slippery here
yesterday morning, but we had we had a good crowd,

(03:44):
which is kind of funny because sometimes you know, you know,
you never know. Sometimes it's actually a really nice Sunday
and everybody stays home because they want to do fun things.
But you know, but that ora, you know, you never
know what's going to happen. But we had a really
good crowd even at our eight thir dy service, which
is a little bit you know, people were late, but

(04:06):
you know, we have like that's one of our I
think that's one of our signatures is that you know,
there's probably you know, thirty or forty percent more people
ten minutes after the service starts as when the service
is starting, right. Yeah. And I think the other thing
we probably should continue to just bring up is all

(04:27):
of the orders and such from President Trump. Yes, you know,
which is It's just it's kind of a reality of
this time and this place in our politics. And you know,
I think all of our churches, no matter where you
are on the political spectrum or feeling some of this stuff,
you know.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, especially with
the orders that affect the faith based services, you know,
like Catholic charities and other Catholic service organizations, I know,
the Episcopalian organizations. I know, Lutheran Lutheran social services has

(05:08):
had to like you know, there's cuts being made all
over the place, and so like Global Refuge, which is
our immigration Resettlement Service, and I didn't know. I didn't
really know the history of that in the Lutheran Church
other than it's it's like a big thing in the

(05:30):
Lutheran tradition to do refugee resettlement is like a is
a is kind of a like Hallmark. And I was
reading the other day and realized apparently after World War Two,

(05:52):
one in six refugees was Lutheran and so this came
out of like the origins of global refuge came out
of that experience of being refugees after World War Two.

(06:12):
So I was like, oh, okay, well, good to know
our history a little bit. But yeah, there's definitely people
who are, you know, feeling feeling the loss, and like
I have a person who works for is it Bethany
Bethany Christian Services. Yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
I heard. I was just as I was driving in.
I was listening to NPR and they were talking about
it was not actually a real story. I mean, it
was a it was a hoax, but it was a
rumor that spread throughout Ottawa High School that I had
come to Ottawa, to Ottawa High School, which is in
Grand Rocket's, Michigan, to arrest and arrest it to students

(06:59):
it turned out not to be a true rumor, but
kind of the terror that that invoked, and kind of
talking about what does it feel like in this time,
in this place to maybe feel less settled than we
did before, and about how that particular thing really kicked
up during pandemic, And that's one of those things, you know,

(07:21):
pandemic like it wasn't that long ago, y'all. And and
you know, in some ways, like I would not mind
forgetting pandemic altogether, because it was it was a really
turbulent time, and but I think it's important that we
continue to remember that. And one of the points that

(07:42):
and this was a different thing that I was listening to,
that uncertainty is not just for people who are really poor.
The uncertainty is kind of across our our our country.
You know, whether you're middle class, whether you're upper middle class,
there is just a certainty that kind of is undergirding

(08:02):
our experience right now. And that is uncertainty is kind
of a is a weird thing, is it not? Because
when you're feeling a little uncertain, you kind of you
grasp for the things that are certain or that you
feel like are certain.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
It's so interesting. I think faith in that kind of
mix because what I read a quote once, the opposite
of faith isn't doubt, it's certainty. And so you have
people who turn to their faith and they grasp their
faith like it's certain, like these sort of what they
see is like biblical truths that are like immutable and certain.

(08:42):
But that's not the nature of faith at all, you know,
other than the one thing that we know is certain
is is God's faithfulness to us and God's presence with us.
But how that feels and how that shows up in
our lives is different.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Shall we read our text this morning, now that we've
had that uplifting discussion.

Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yes, the gospel is from a luke. Jesus said to
his disciples, to you who hear, I say, love your enemies,
Do good to those who hate you, Bless those who
curse you, Pray for those who mistreat you. To the
person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other

(09:31):
one as well. And from the person who takes your cloak,
do not withhold your tunic. Give to everyone who asks
of you. And from the one who takes what is yours,
do not demand it back. Do to others as you
would have them do to you. For if you love
those who love you, what credit is that to you?
Even sinners love those who love them. And if you

(09:54):
do good to those who do good to you, what
credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.
If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment,
what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to
sinners and get back the same amount. But rather love
your enemies and do good to them and lend expecting

(10:17):
nothing back, then your reward will be great, and you
will be children of the most High, For he himself
is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful,
just as your father is merciful. Stop judging and you
will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not
be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give and

(10:41):
gifts will be given to you. A good measure, packed together,
shaken down and overflowing, will be poured into your lap.
For the measure with which you measure will in turn
be measured out to you.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Okay, I have issues with one part of that, in
light of our current contact, The part about not what
is taken from you, don't ask for it back only
because I'm thinking, no, wait, Like, if the richest person

(11:16):
in the world is taking from the most vulnerable people
in the world, I think we should ask for that back. Like,
I think we should demand for that back. Like I
don't know. I yeah, I don't. That's what's sitting with
me right now, is like, no, wait, I like I

(11:37):
get if you, I don't know. In light of the
horrific imbalance right now, I'm just like no, no, no, no, no,
no no no, Like the hundreds of people who are
losing their jobs need those back.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
I think this is one of the harder teachings from Jesus.
I always think, Okay, Beth, this is where the rubber
hits the road. Do you or don't you? So I
think it's harder when when we see the injustice and
yet we want we want to continue to follow the
teachings of Jesus and treat everybody you know, and don't
just love those who love you. You know, I love
those lines. I don't love them, but yeah, they're very challenging.

(12:13):
You know, what credit is that to you? What credit
is that to you? If you learn to those who
are going to get back to you, If you can
only like, I'm only going to hang around with people
that like me and I like them. You know, it's just.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Can we take us step back for just a minute,
because I mean, I love this passage too. Can we
take a step back for just a minute and talk
about like what do we do when we read a
text and something rubs us the wrong way? Like what
Jessica is saying, you know, what do you do? What
do you do with that? I mean, because we've got
some choices, right, I mean, one of the choices is

(12:49):
to just kind of be like, Okay, these are the
words of Jesus, so we're just going to do them, right,
That's one of our choices. Another choice is like, well,
these are the words of Jesus and we're not going
to do them. And I don't think either of those
two things kind of are really ultimately very honest. But
another choice is to be like, Okay, this is the
word of Jesus, and I'm going to wrestle with this text, right,

(13:11):
And I mean our our siblings, the Jewish people, you know,
sometimes they're called the Israelites, and that word israel is
like one who wrestles with God. You know, you're not
always saying sure, God, this is all fine, but sometimes
you wrestle with it. So so what are the what
are some other choices to do when we when we
read a text and we're like, this is a really

(13:33):
hard thing and and something really you're like, I don't
like this text. What do we do? I mean because
some people I mean, and other choices is that you
kind of interpret the you know, you use your your
methodical interpretation and you try to figure out a way
of making sense of it, you know, kind of using that.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
Interpretation right in in Lutheran tradition we talk about, you know,
paying attention to like his like context and like type
type of writing and what how does this fit with

(14:14):
like what we know of Jesus? Right? And so you know,
I think about that phrase because on first, on first
like receiving it, it sounds like, okay, just lay down
and let if the powerful are the ones taking lay

(14:36):
down and let it happen, right, But then you know, Beth,
you brought up the good point like this is where
the rubber hits the road, and you know who is
this sermon aimed at? Is it aimed at the powerful
people or is it aimed at the more vulnerable people.

(14:57):
But then in light of Jesus's other actions, I mean,
this is the same person who who you know, flipped
the tables in the temple because the powerful we're extracting
from those with less power, and we're exploiting. And so

(15:21):
I wonder if there's a way where you can follow
these tenants like absolutely love, love your enemy, but also
stick up for the little guy, And how do we
do that while also praying for those who persecute you?

(15:44):
And you know, how do we like advocate and stick
up and do the work of justice while also having
mercy upon and loving and praying for the enemy. I
think that's where the wrestling is.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
What do you think, Beth.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
I think it's interesting because and I often do this
is I wonder if we twist the tables here a
little bit that what if we're the ones that are misjudging.
What if we're the ones that are condemning. What if
we're the ones that are taking and not giving back?
So I think sometimes it's easy to put our in
that spot that you know we should defend, but maybe

(16:34):
we're the ones that need to be a little more
giving and loving and forgiving. What with all the terms
there forgiving, stop condemning, stop judging.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
A little more.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
We're interesting, Yeah, it's interesting. Just before this, right, the
beatitudes from Luke and the woes. So, Blessed are the
poor and spirit Blessed are those who are you know
who are grieving. Blessed are those who are mistreated. But
and then Jesus gets aft. I mean, Luke writes the
woes right after that, woe to you who do so

(17:03):
we hear that just before this, before the scripture comes
in Luke's Gospel. So I think Jessica makes a good point.
You know, what is the context? To whom is Jesus
addressing is really important? And I think it's all of us.
At some time in our life. We're the one judging.
I think it's much easier to judge. But if I

(17:23):
be honest, it's much easier to judge than it is
to be merciful. I think mercy is something we have
to learn and teach and experience. I don't think it's
something we're just born being merciful. It's much easier to judge,
say why do they do that? Why do they dress
like that? Why do they say that? Why are they
doing that? It's in my opinion, in my little life,

(17:44):
it's easier to judge than it is to say, wait
a second. I don't know their whole story. I don't
know their background. I don't know why they speak like that.
I don't know why they're angry all the time. They
seem to be angry. You know, what is their story?
Where did they come from? What it is their brokenness?
And I guess I've learned to kind of try to
stop in the middle of my judging and say, wait

(18:06):
a second. You know, maybe your behavior triggered something in them.
Maybe you need to stop judging and condemning and figure
out for yourself not to behave that way, but then
to take an account to be merciful to those who
are being hurt. I've been accused many times of standing

(18:26):
up for the for the poor and the sick and
the dying. You know, a couple of priests I've worked
for said, boy, you really go after it when it's
I said, oh, yes, if it's somebody sick or dying,
or we better be up to bat like right now
and not be due down around doing other things. I
took several calls over the weekend because then we have

(18:46):
a prishioner, that's very bad. So I took those calls
even though I wasn't working over the weekend. But those
are very dear to me. So I would stand up
for the sick and the dying and say all right.
And I was texting the priest for that PA that
I work for, and he did respond, Oh, I said,
you need to be in contact with his family. So

(19:07):
that's my little two cents.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
I agree the end of.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
That text, for the measure you give will be the
measure you get back. I sometimes think about this as
our Christian karma text, you know, and I it's you know,
it's that's silly, and it's but it is it, But
it is like that is absolutely true. Like the less
you judge, the less you feel the condemnation of others,

(19:32):
you know, The less you condemned, the less you are condemned,
you know. And these I mean, I think you're right
about these are really difficult words, and I think we
do We're going to have to continue to wrestle with them.
And I really appreciate what you said about thinking about
about the context or the people to whom Jesus is

(19:54):
saying this. And I also think it's really important to
think about the times that we have taken, you know,
and the ways that we can you need to take,
even the ways we take without even thinking about it.
Like sometimes the ways we consume is just a way
of taking without thinking about it. And even it's almost

(20:16):
baked into our society now, the way that we take
from others. You know that there's this just kind of
desire for more and more and more. I don't know,
but could you just imagine just for a minute what
it would be like if all people tried to follow

(20:38):
these words of Jesus.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
I think we'd have better mental health. Yeah, I think that,
particularly the forgiveness, peace and the you know, I mean
we see daily what holding on to anger and bitterness

(21:01):
and resentment like looks like right like, you know, we
see the effects of I mean it like in our
current leadership, we see the effects of holding a grudge

(21:25):
or having a chip, and and how that that that
desire for revenge or to make a point or whatever,
it is just manifest in such an unhealthy way. And

(21:46):
you know, I know in my own life, when I'm
angry and I'm stewing on something, it's not gonna like
the person who did the thing is not like, yeah,
it's I'm going to bother them, right, but it bothers
me and I'm grinding my teeth about it, and so

(22:10):
I end up being the one who is being harmed
by holding on and not forgiving and not reconciling and
not just trying to to move through whatever the experience is.
You know, I think about anger and resentment as as

(22:33):
like a poison that doesn't harm the person who harmed you,
but it harms you.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
A couple of weeks ago, we were talking and are
we have a nine am you Christ on Wednesdays? And
we were talking about what does it really mean? How
do we really love our enemies? And so the first
thing you have to admit is if you in order
to love enemies, is you have to admit that you
have enemies. And you know, some people are like, no,
I don't have any No, we all have enemies. We
all have people we hate, even if we say we don't,

(23:03):
we all have people we hate. So how do you
do that? Like we were talking about, okay, the first
thing you might do is you might say, okay, God
give me the desire not to hate this person, you know,
like you begin kind of small and then you know,
you let that desire it and that you know, and
then maybe you don't want to hate them, and then
you kind of figure it out. Right. But I think

(23:25):
kind of loving our enemies, I we could just think
about it as something we do with our teeth gritted,
I'm gon this person. But maybe there's this other way.
Maybe what we're being asked to do is to kind
of open our hearts more and more to spirit, and

(23:45):
and maybe figuring out how to love our enemies takes
a really long time, because I think that sometimes that
you know, figuring out how to love the people who
are our enemies might take a lifetime, you know, but
we have to move towards it, right.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah, I do want to say, just because I know
sometimes these teachings, because it takes a lifetime, and because
there's so much involved with it, people come away with
the idea like if they're in an abusive relationship or
if they're in a toxic relationship, that forgiving or loving

(24:20):
their enemy means that a they have to like them
and keep hanging out with them, or be that they
just have to stay and that's I don't think. Sometimes
the spirit moves you in a way that loving your
enemy means going no contact, agreed means summering ties means

(24:47):
just letting that person go to God and being like,
you know what, you can love this person. I need
to just be done.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, excellent point. Excellent point. Do you have anything to
say to finish up bath Well?

Speaker 3 (25:05):
I agree with Jessica. I don't think this means staying
in abusive relationships at all, but I would want to
encourage people to at least begin loving your enemies. Doesn't
mean we have to be with them, but we can.
I agree. If we're going to drink the poison, we
have to stop doing that and being angry and you know,
having some movement towards forgiveness and loving. And that's a

(25:29):
process for sure, especially if we've been hurt deeply by someone.
So I think it can go a lot of different
ways when we talk about enemies and who they are
and who we think they are maybe not. You know,
sometimes people intentions are good, but it comes out wrong

(25:51):
and we think there are enemies and come to find
out they're not really our enemies. So there are false
enemies I think in our heads too. But there's certainly
as that we wouldn't engage with we would walk away.
We can love them from afar.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Right, I agree?

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Well, I mean we could have. Never mind, we need
to stop because our time is almost stop. I was
going to go on non violent active resistance, which also
has its genesis in this particular passage. But we will
have to have that conversation another time, will we not.
All right, thank you all for listening to us on

(26:32):
soundings on behalf of Jessica and Beth and myself Molly.
We hope that you have a wonderful Sunday