Soundings June 1 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning, and welcome to Soundings, a public affairs presentation
of iHeartMedia. Each week we have an ecumenical discussion and
reflection on the scriptures and how they apply to life
in the world. My name is Shannon Jamal Hollomans. I'm
the pastor at First Congregational United Church of Christ in Lowell, Michigan,
about thirty minute drive from Grand Rapids. Two of our

(00:23):
regulars are here with me this morning, and I will
invite them to introduce themselves, starting with Pastor Ruth.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Good morning. I am Reverend Ruth Belle Olsen, and I
serve as a senior minister at Mayflower Congregational Church on
the southeast side of Grand Rapids.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
And I am Father Mike Kirkshank, a paulisht father serving
at the Cathedral of Saint Andrew in the heartside neighborhood
of Grand Rapids.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Good morning to you both. Today is Ascension Day, the
day that the church around the world celebrates the ascension
of Christ and remembers that I remember growing up in
the tree that I grew up in. We didn't talk
about Jesus ascension a whole lot. We knew what happened.
We acknowledged it, but it wasn't a really big deal

(01:10):
in the church, And I wonder if that was different
in your traditions. I just remember having a professor and
seminary who said, you know, when you are blessing people,
make sure you're doing it in the name of you know, Christ,
who was died, was risen, was ascended, right, and how
important that is to include. So I'm wondering what Ascension

(01:31):
Day looks like in your traditions.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, I would say I would say it was a
pretty similar experience. We would you know, the Easter season,
we know it's fifty days, and you know, we would
we would celebrate the beginning in the end, resurrection and
Pentecost would be a pretty big deal sending forth the
Holy Spirit. But the ascension kind of guess lost in

(01:56):
the middle. And I wonder if at least so in
in in the Catholic tradition, some dioceses in the in
the country celebrate it on Thursday, which is forty days
after Easter, which is what we hear in scripture from

(02:16):
actually the Apostles, that's forty days that Jesus walked on
the earth after the resurrection. But that so that would
be that would be Thursday, but we've it's been moved
to Sunday and most of the dioceses in the United States,
probably so that it would be better celebrated. You know,
I think it got a lot you know, a lot

(02:36):
of people can't make it to Mass, can make it
to services on during the week, and so celebrating on Sunday,
I think it gives it a little more, but I
think it does it does still get a little bit
lost in the whole scheme of things.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew up in churches that didn't
actually follow a liturgical calendar. So now that I'm in
a church that does, for the most I mean, you know,
for the most part, I'm sort of learning, kind of learning,

(03:14):
Like I not to go on a total rabbit trail.
But I traveled with my mother to Norway many many
years ago, and we we it was a trip to
see distant relatives we've never met, and we we did
it over Memorial weekend and as a holid, you know,

(03:35):
kind of capitalizing on the holiday here and to get
the days off and all those kinds of things. And
we showed up and it was a holiday there, National
holiday Norway which is a pretty secular, secularized country, and
we said, oh, you have a holiday too, what is it, Well,
it's Pentecost of course. Growing up and uh they you

(03:55):
know Christian faith tradition that followed the liturgical calendar, We're like,
what's Pentacon?

Speaker 1 (04:00):
I mean Pedaga.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
But then you would have an entire secular country for
the most part that would take a day off for Pentecost.
You know, I thought, oh, well, I'm really naive to
some of these things. So if I didn't even grow
up with Pentecosts, let alone ascension being something that's celebrated,
I feel like I missed these hallmark you know, these milestones,
hallmark days of really stopping to notice that these are

(04:24):
really important steps in a faith journey and stopping to wow,
this really happened. Yeah, this really, this really happened. There's
like this fuzzy and I think ascension is one of
those that's kind of fuzzy. It's kind of like this
ethereal fuzzy kind of thing. Like Pentecost. We have tongues
of fire and we have wind, and it's like this

(04:47):
dramatic thing. Empty tomb is dramatic, and the ascension should
be kind of, I think, but but it feels kind
of fuzzy. Yeah, this cloud there is it, this drama
in the same way, so I don't know. And then Thursday, yeah, Thursday,
middle of the week. I can see that in your tradition,

(05:09):
father Mike, that you're like, well Thursday, wah, you know
what's trying to get a little bit and give it
a little more drama.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
I don't know. Yeah, yeah, kind of waking up to
some of these some of these things.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
But well, well, let's get started with a reading.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Then.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
Our reading four Ascension Day comes from Luke twenty four,
and it is verses forty six through fifty three, and
this is Jesus speaking to his disciples. Jesus said to them,
thus it is written that the Messiah is to suffer
and to rise from the dead on the third day,

(05:48):
and that repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be
proclaimed in his name to all nations beginning from Jerusalem.
You are witnesses of these things, and see I am
sending upon you what my father promised. So stay here
in the city until you have been clothed with power
from on high. Then he led them out as far

(06:12):
as Bethany, and lifting up his hands, he blessed them.
While he was blessing them, he withdrew from them and
was carried up into heaven. And they worshiped him and
returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and they were continually
in the temple blessing God. This is a gospel of

(06:33):
our Lord.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Jesus Christ, Thanks to God.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
So it's a short scene, but there's a lot going
on there.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Right, It lacks some drama. I'm telling you. We don't
have tongues of fire, we don't.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
Have loud blood.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
They don't have people running around. Yeah right, yeah, carried
up into heaven and then they were all happy. It's
liking some drama narratives, lying some drama for me.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, yeah, But it is important what Jesus says to
them before he goes Right, the last thing he does
is bless them, and just before he blesses them, he
reminds them that this didn't just happen out of nowhere,
all these crazy things that happened in the days prior,
that this is what was written about, that Jesus would suffer,

(07:23):
and that he would rise from the dead on the
third day, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins is
meant to be told to everyone so that everyone has
access to it. And he just charges the people you
are my witnesses, I'm sending you, which yeah, I think

(07:44):
is really beautiful and exciting, and yeah, there's not a
whole lot of glamour to it, right, there's no tongues
of fire yet, he says, wait for those, but they
really have a charge here to live, like they've seen
what they just saw.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
And I wonder, I just trying to like get into
the hearts and lines of the of the apostles, and
I'm wondering how they're feeling here. You know, they just
forty days earlier that Jesus had just died, their master,
the Lord, their Arabbi died, and and a lot of

(08:21):
sorrow came from that, of course, and then he resurrected
a few days later, was with them for another forty days,
and then he has to leave again. And I wonder if,
like how what that would be like, I mean I
would I would find it pretty pretty devastating, like, oh,

(08:43):
we just got you, got you back, and now you
have to leave again, And like the in the Catholic electionary,
the first reading is from actual apostles, and it shows
it tells the same story from a from a different
angle and uh, and the apostles are there like left
sort of staring in the sky, and the Angel has

(09:07):
to tell them like, no, that's that's where he's going.
You need to move on now. And I wonder how
how easy it is from the move on here in
the In this reading from from Luke, it seems like
they moved on pretty pretty easily. Says they did him homage,
return to Jerusalem with great joy, and they're continually in

(09:29):
the temple praising God. I just wanted to I wonder
just maybe conflicted feelings or mixed emotions about the whole.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Thing to have.

Speaker 4 (09:40):
Yeah, and then he leaves, But.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
You know who who's with who's kind of with you
in the commission Other than that, other than the rest
of the apostles, I would imagine we would feel a
little bit daunting, a little bit lonely to be in
this position and kind of in this period.

Speaker 4 (10:03):
Before the Pentecost. And so we have this.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
We celebrated ten ten days in between the those two events,
when the Holy Spirit is sent down in a very
particular way to guide them.

Speaker 4 (10:18):
So I wonder in these in.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
This period in between as Sension and Pentecost, what that
was like, sort of like without seemingly without much guidance,
either from Jesus or from the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 4 (10:31):
I don't know. I would just imagine that would be
a pretty difficult time.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, this weird waiting anticipation for what you Yeah, anticipation
for something that you don't you don't have any idea, right,
it's never happened before, You're yeah, I think, uh, we
started in verse forty six. But if you just back

(11:00):
up a little bit of verse forty five, it says,
then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures. I
think if you just kind of back up a little bit,
I'm just looking at that at my Bible open and
I'm looking at that he opened their minds to understand.

(11:20):
What does that mean? How critical is that that he
has been Jesus has been teaching and walking with them
again and again and again and again. And there's so
many points in the Gospels where they just don't seem
to get it. They try, they try, and He's like,
I again, hey, folks, I really mean and there are

(11:43):
these little glimmers and here he's saying, Okay, everything about
me is true. It's been fulfilled, the law and the profits,
all of it's happening. And here at the very end
he opens their minds to understand. Was that something that

(12:04):
was that a power that Jesus had a lot that like, hey,
I could have opened your minds at any time I made.
I don't know what what is that? Is it like
a switch? We could flake and every time and oh,
I'm going to now we're going to help you understand.
That's just a really interesting phrase that did they then

(12:26):
when and then now now to the very last verse
and they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great
joy for the last two verses and then they were,
you know, continuing in the temple to bless Was there
some interesting thing that happened that when Jesus did ascend
understanding meant they did have a peace that maybe they
didn't have before. Your point, Father, Mike, about this he's there,

(12:50):
that he's gone, and that I mean, I would think
I'd be so disruptive. Yeah, the resurrection happens and then
he leaves again that push pull, that horrible emotional rollercoaster.
But is there something about this this final kind of
puzzle piece. Oh, now the minds are open to understanding

(13:12):
that they could go back to the temple. And interesting
to the very last verse, they're continually in the temple
blessing God. Then you have it Pentecost, right, this burst
of you know, we start we now see this burst.
It's not just the temple and not just the Jewish communities.

(13:34):
You start seeing this expanse, I don't know, yeah, I
don't know that. Then he opened their minds to understand
the scriptures dot.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Dot Right, don't you feel like a lot of this
it's you know, as both of you were talking about it,
it feels like where we are as the church today,
as people who are trying to follow Jesus today right,
In a lot of ways, I think some people just
feel like we're waiting, waiting on Christ to return, waiting
on better days, waiting on greater deliverance. Right, because there's

(14:07):
just so much around us that seems wrong. It feels
like we need Jesus to sort of help us open
our minds to understand the scriptures because it feels like,
you know, we have a lot of wonderful Christian traditions
and all their diversity but we just really want to know, right,
We really want a good grasp on what doesn't mean

(14:28):
to still down to be a follower of Jesus, and
we want we want Christ to sort of reveal those
things to us. Yeah, I think we're in many ways
today in that period of waiting, of wanting more, wanting better.
And some of us are spending our days, you know,
in the church, about church business, and some of us

(14:50):
are living that sort of pentecost living out in the world.
Some of us are doing both. But there does seem
to be this I don't know, this general sense of
wanting clear direction from God, no matter what your your
Christian tradition, is wanting some guidance, wanting God to compel

(15:13):
us forward and move us forward and reveal to us
so that we understand what's going on. I think a
lot of being a disciple, of following Jesus is not
knowing what's going on, just putting one foot and forward
in front of the other. But more waiting, I think
than I know I'm comfortable with. I would like a

(15:33):
little more, a little more resolution, a little more answers,
not this fuzzy ascension into who knows what not to
be left standing there. But I think a lot of
days we feel like, I don't know, we're left standing
here and where is God? And we're left looking in
the sky wondering it's not always easy to follow Christ.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Right, Well, we're standing there looking at each other and
we can't get along with each other. Yeah, right, I mean,
I think the other one of the other electionary texts
for this week is that, you know, from John seventeen,
is the unity. This this we are called to unity,
and we can't even within the Christian tradition or within

(16:21):
the Christian body, we can't. We're just throwing arrows at
each other. So we can't even get that right. So yeah,
it's tricky, tricky, tricky.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
Yeah, And I think it's I'm just reminded that last
last night I was at a week service for somebody
who died suddenly this week, and you know, there's there's
something about sudden death in the way that families react

(17:00):
to that that is like such a stark reminder of
the fragility of this life. And just you know, seeing
the shock and the deep star that somebody has, it's
just yeah, it's always just so jarring for me of
like how like wow, this is this is all a

(17:23):
passing thing, this life that we have. And and and
I'm reminded that because it's sort of like this time
that they Possos had with Jesus is a passing time.
And I'm sure, I'm sure you know it's it seems
like according to to Luke's Gospel, his accounts, that that

(17:46):
they were able to be so appreciative.

Speaker 4 (17:50):
Of that time that they had.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
You know, they did him alma to return to Jerusalem
with great joy, I mean, their appreciative the time that
they had, and also probably as Pastor Ruth said of
teaching them in the scriptures, of what how this is
all being fulfilled by Him? And there's some joy and
that understanding and joy and and in the hope that
comes from knowing that they will continue this mission forward,

(18:15):
knowing that the Father will send you this, this power
from on high, this Holy.

Speaker 4 (18:23):
Spirit to be with you.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
And so I guess it's it reminds me of this
this balance that we have between this life and the next,
between loss and hope, and between gratitude for what's happened,

(18:46):
but also sorrow for what is no longer. And I
think that the I mean, we all experience that many
different ways in our lives, this this balance between what
is really, what is and what is not, what is,
what is there, and what is missing. And I imagine

(19:09):
that the apostles we're dealing with that in a particular,
in particular way that Jesus was leaving, but they had
great gratitude for while he was there, while he was there,
and great hope for what was to be because of his.

Speaker 4 (19:25):
Presence in their lives.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
And I think we, yeah, we can all be grateful
for the different people in our lives, whether they're going
to stay with us a long time or not so long.
It's you know, going to awake service like that as
a reminder just to continue to be grateful for the
people in our lives and however long we have them
for and and carrying with that the hope that whenever

(19:49):
we're taken, whenever we're asked to move on from something,
that we're still in God's hands and there's a great
hope that has brought us that hope by coming to
the earth, by ascending into heaven, by you know, in
that way, opening up the gates to Heaven, that He has.

Speaker 4 (20:10):
Given us a great joy and hope in the future
as well.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate you bringing that to you know,
your experience at awake recently, Father Mike, because I think
life and death are just they are also mysteries, a
little bit ethereal to us, right, that life has such power,
immense power to impact other people, especially with love, and

(20:35):
yet it's so fragile and it can be taken so quickly,
and it seems to be in God's hands alone.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Right.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
I've shared this story I think before, but in twenty nineteen,
my father was diagnosed with stage four lung cancer and
told he had six months to live. And it was
one of those really jarring moments in my life because
I was not ready to lose him. But with a
drug that they were able to find, a targeted chemotherapy

(21:04):
that worked for a small group of people, it worked
for him and we were able to have another five
years with him. And it was such an incredible gift
to have those five years, like you mentioned, you know,
that time that Jesus disciples had with him. Just having
this unexpected time that really was a gift from God

(21:25):
and we were so thankful for it. And that was
something that God had had assured me of because in
twenty nineteen, when I was so devastated by the news,
I was in Kiev visiting my sister there and went
to this Ukrainian church and prayed at the site where
Saint Barbara is interred and just ask God, you know

(21:49):
why this was happening, why I was losing my father
so quickly and very clearly. I heard God say to me,
I'm going to take your father this way, but I'm
going to do it my own time. And so for me,
that was a gift those five years that I had
with him, was God saying, this is my gift to you.
Your your father is going to go, but I'm going

(22:10):
to give you this time with him. And I'm just
so thankful for that, for the assurance I had of
that during the five years. And we did lose him
a year ago this week, and it had me thinking
a lot this week too, about just the power we
have with our lives to impact people with love, to
make such a huge impact on this world and on
people and communities. But yet how fragile it is, how

(22:34):
how life is ultimately in God's hands and it can
go rather quickly. I know, I know Pastor Ruth has
lost her father as well, and when you have, you know,
some of these people in your lives who just make
such an incredible impact by who they are, by their
incredible love. What a gift. But it also has us saying, Okay,

(22:56):
we want more, you know, come Lord Jesus. It's y yeah,
our days are certainly in God's hands.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, yep, yep, mhm, yep. And I would say, you know,
for probably I can speak for all three of us,
it's as ministers. It's those times, I would say, being
with people who are dying and officiating those services of memorials, wigs, funerals, committals,

(23:34):
those are in many ways the holiest services I present
or for sure, hands down. Yeah. And I'm grateful right
where Heaven meets Earth, and I think for the for
the disciples who witnessed Jesus' baptism right and the dove,
and the Heaven meets Earth, and the transfiguration Havn and

(23:56):
Earth touching, and the ascension have and are touching that
those glimpses. And I think we we don't have that exactly,
but we do have these moments, these very precious moments
where I think, boy, haven't Earth get real close? These
really beautiful little touch points, and I think we are
just one little liver of a dimension away. Those those

(24:19):
thin spaces, those liminal spaces, they exist, and they're everywhere,
and I think we maybe we may be bear witness
to them, or maybe more often than other people. I
don't know. Maybe uh, maybe people who are in the

(24:42):
birthing room of babies and hospice care workers get as
much as we do. But yeah, yeah, yeah, it's holy's
holy space for sure it is.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
And and this ascension days, as we all navigate this
space between Heaven and Earth and receive these glimpses from God,
this understanding from God. On behalf of Father Mike and
Pastor Ruth, we just pray that you would be able
to see these glimpses of God around you, to experience them,
and to live in ways that are encouraged and find

(25:19):
hope in the power of the ascended Savior. So thank
you for joining us today, and we pray that you
have a blessed Sabbath.