Soundings June 15 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning, and welcome to Soundings, a public affairs presentation
of iHeartMedia. Each week we have an ecumenical discussion and
reflection on the scriptures and how they apply to life
and to the world. My name is Shannon Jamal Hollomans,
and I am the pastor at First Congregational United Church
of Christ of Lowell, Michigan, about twenty five miles east

(00:22):
of Grand Rapids. Two of our regulars are here with
me this morning, and I will invite them to introduce
themselves to you, starting with Father Mike.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hi, my name is Father Mike Krishenk. I'm a paulished father,
a Roman Catholic priest serving at the Cathedral of Saint
Andrew in the heartside neighborhood of Grand Rapids.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
Good morning.

Speaker 4 (00:42):
I am Reverend Ruth Bell Olson, and I serve as
a senior minister at Mayflower Congregational Church on the southeast
side of Grand Rapids.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Good morning to you both.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Hi, Good morning.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
We are in a season in the life of the
church where you know things have have shifted. Now We've
we've gone through lent in Easter and Pentecost was was
just last week, and now we are moving on to
Trinity Sunday today and UH, then for the rest of
the summer, I feel like it'll be a little bit

(01:18):
more of of the the ordinary time as we often
call it right in the church. Do your churches do
anything special this time of year to commemorate anything like
Pentecost or Trinity Sunday.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
We actually had at the cathedral here last Sunday for Pentecost.
It just so happened to coincide with our parish festival.
So every year we have a parish festival, usually the
first or second Sunday in June, and UH. In the
parish festival, we call it the Unity Festival because we

(01:51):
have various cultural communities that are within our our parish,
but we because of language, it's hard to really do
a lot together, and so we try to find intentional
times throughout the year in which we can we can
just celebrate together and be with one another. So we

(02:11):
have this, UH we call the Unity Mass and Unity Festival.

Speaker 5 (02:16):
And so this year, because it landed on Pentecost, it
was like it was perfect because the readings we the Mass,
I think we use like five different languages in the
Mass and UH, and of course the Pentecost is the apostles,
the disciples are speaking in tongue so people can understand.

Speaker 6 (02:35):
Them, and and then we have a festival outside and
celebrate our diversity and our unity at the same time.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
And so it was kind of perfect this year that
it fell on.

Speaker 5 (02:49):
Pentecost because it's the theme of Pentecosta is so fitting
with what we're what we're trying to do, and so
that was that was a really fun Sunday last Sunday.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
It was a great celebration.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Oh that's so great.

Speaker 4 (03:06):
Yeah, we had a big Pentecost Sunday last Sunday as well.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
We called it was a birthday party.

Speaker 4 (03:14):
We just did a full on literal birthday party with
like balloons and cake and.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Kind of silly in some ways.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
But I don't think Pentecost is something I certainly didn't
grow up celebrating Pentecost.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
I don't even know if I knew what it was.

Speaker 4 (03:33):
Being from a church that in that more evangelical, non
denominational tradition, we didn't really follow its church calendar.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
So we certainly knew.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
I certainly knew about the story and Acts two, but
I didn't know the word Pentecost. I didn't know that
that was something that was necessarily celebrated in other traditions.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
So so we just.

Speaker 4 (03:56):
Went all in with the red and the party, and
it was the last music is a big focus at
our church, and so the choir season. It was the
last Sunday the choir season, and so kind of went
out with a bang with a choir.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
And just that was sort of our celebratory thing.

Speaker 4 (04:18):
And I really appreciate what you said, Father Mike about
all the different languages, and your context have literally different languages.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
Is such a beautiful picture.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
We don't have that in our congregation, So preaching on
lots of different languages when we're not a multi lingual
congregation is tricky.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
So I talked.

Speaker 4 (04:44):
About how there's literally different languages, but I talked about
how we also come alongside people. And there's the way
you can learn other languages by just entering into someone's
life and coming alongside them.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
And we learn.

Speaker 4 (05:03):
Other people's kind of native dialects by entering into their
world and learning to kind of speak their language. There
are all kinds of ways we can speak someone's language by.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
Entering into their world.

Speaker 4 (05:15):
And it might just mean leaving your comfort zone, and
it might just mean, you know, it might mean different
things and kind of taking a little broader view of
what Pentecostu might mean just in partnership with others that
are different than we are. So I tried to spin
it a little bit and celebrate that this is where

(05:37):
we get to announce the power of God in all
kinds of relationships. That it might not mean I learn
Spanish or I learn Mandarin, or I learn you know,
finish or something, but I might learn how to walk
with someone whose life is very different than mine. So

(06:00):
I don't I that's just kind of where I landed,
and to celebrate that that this is what we get
to do to announce the power of God in the context.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
So yeah, So we had.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
Cake and balloons and all the things, and and maybe
maybe a third of the congregation were read.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
We're getting there. Well, it starts in new traditions. It
was that So that was fun for us.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
That's wonderful. And I've actually heard about the Unity Festival
that the Catholic Church holds downtown. I know that that
Catholics and Grand Rapids really look forward to getting together
for that festival. That it's such a beautiful expression of
the diversity of the church and such a reminder of
the diversity that you know, God instilled in the Church

(06:51):
from the very beginning and intended for us. Yeah, I wish,
I wish more of us did things like that with intention, right,
because even as we think about Trinity Sunday, you know
this week, God is diverse from the beginning, right, Father, Son,
and Holy Spirit. The Gospels are diverse God. God has

(07:13):
always instilled that within the Church, and it's I think
over the years sometimes we've gotten confused and we've fallen
into uniformity and confused that with unity. But God has
always intended diversity within our communities of faith, because that's
what testifies to the power of God. Right that the
unity that we have is not because because we all

(07:35):
speak the same language, because we all agree on all
these different issues. It's solely in the power of God
that we have in Jesus Christ. And that's I think
that's such a great testimony. And I love that about
Pentecost and about about Trinity Sunday that we are celebrating today.
So let's dive into our passage this morning. We are

(07:57):
in John sixteen, and I will read verses twelve through fifteen,
and this is from Jesus' final words to his disciples
in the Book of John before he leaves them, starting
at verse twelve, Jesus said, I still have many things

(08:18):
to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you
into all the truth. For he will not speak on
his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he
will declare to you the things that are to come.
For he will glorify me because he will take what
is mine and declare it to you. All that the

(08:41):
Father has is mine. For this reason I said that
he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
This is the gospel of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
Thanks to God.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
So Jesus left them with some words, a lot of words.
And this is just a small snippet. But I love
about this piece is that Jesus starts with I still
have many things to say to you, but you cannot
bear them right now. So he promises the spirit to

(09:12):
guide them. I know, for me, when I'm doing something new,
something I tend to be afraid of because I don't
like change like many of us, having someone who I
know will guide me, who will sort of walk me
through it makes all the difference. And I imagine that
that's what Jesus was trying to really instill in his

(09:35):
disciples as he left them, was that I'm not leaving
you alone, that you won't be on your own, but
you'll have somebody. What else stands out to both of
you here?

Speaker 3 (09:47):
Oh, my goodness, that phrase you cannot bear it. That's
a terrible phrase. You could not bear it. I mean,
that's like heavy, heavy, heavy.

Speaker 4 (09:59):
But when the spear of truth comes, And I just
have been to some circumstances and my life, and I
keep thinking of the truth, how the truth will set
you free, That the truth has so much power, and
when the spirit of truth comes, he will guide you
into all the truth. That there's something so clarifying, so purifying,

(10:22):
so helpful.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
But the truth also.

Speaker 4 (10:24):
Hurts, it exposes, it can be raw.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
It's good for you.

Speaker 4 (10:33):
Know the things that are good for you. Often you
lance the boil and like right it it hurts, but
it's good for you, right, all the things that you know.
Often the truth is good in the long run, but
in the short run it hurts, but it sets you free.
So maybe that's the part that you can't bear. I

(10:53):
don't know, but spirit of truth guides you in truth.
And man, if we could all just walk in the
all walk in the truth, what a different different place
we would all be in right ourselves, our communities, our
country if we just if we just all were made
in the truth, we'd be in a different place when
we Yeah.

Speaker 5 (11:11):
I'm struck by that as well. The spirit of truth,
he will guide you to all truth. And I think
I do think in our society today, it's it is
getting harder and harder to determine and follow the truth.

Speaker 7 (11:31):
And I think of like social media, it's it's becomes
so easy to manipulate things into like making it seem
like it's real when when it's not.

Speaker 5 (11:44):
I mean, so there are some things that I that
I love about like AI. I love watching they do
these videos like they they do AI babies and they
take like podcast clips from comedians and they show babies
like talking as if they were the comedians.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
It's hilarious.

Speaker 5 (12:07):
But but but I mean, that's that's one example, just
like a funny way to use AI.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Like there are just ways I've seen videos where it's
just like it looks so real.

Speaker 5 (12:20):
Uh, Like there was one of Pope Leo and I
forget what what.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
It was, but like he was, it was a video
of him saying something.

Speaker 5 (12:30):
But like I was, I knew it was like there's
no way he would actually say this, like that is
there's no way.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
And but like too, I mean, I you know, I'm
you know.

Speaker 5 (12:42):
I'm sure I follow the pope and the church teaching
more than more than others. And so if people weren't
as familiar and they saw that, they would actually believe
it was true and like and so I think it's
just we're collectively making it harder to to determine the truth,
and we're deceiving one another in ourselves, I think in

(13:04):
many ways. And so I think this, uh, this promise
of the Spirit of truth is consoling to me in
a lot of ways. That they're like, if we can
just in our own lives, just be true to who
we are one and be true to like what the

(13:27):
things we do, that what's around us, and make sure that.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
You know, we keep our we keep our lives in
a in.

Speaker 5 (13:38):
A manner in which we would we would consider it
to be truthful and good and honorable.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, I think that's so important, father Mike. You know,
I think often people outside the church think of the
church like, oh, it's this you know, law or these
words that God put on us, that are this burden
to carry. But when I think of the truth of
God and the Gospel, I mean God is instilled truth

(14:11):
in us from the beginning, from our very creation, right,
we reflect the very image of God. So there are
pieces of God's God's truth that are within us that
are are meant to emanate from our lives. And if
we are faithful to our lives and God's calling on
our lives, we will we will show that truth. We
just need to be fed in communities where that truth

(14:33):
is cultivated so that we can live faithfully to God's calling.
And it's hard when when there's so many other things,
you know, you were talking about AI and social media
and all these these competing ideologies and things that almost
seem to be yeah, just spewing lies right about who

(14:58):
we are, about our value being just simply in how
much money we have in the bank, or how good
we are at our job, or what we look like. Right,
And we see young people being shaped by these myths
and these lies and forgetting the truth that we are
all created good in the image of God. And that

(15:20):
we have a savior who is there for us, and
that we have a spirit who is still intervening in
our lives, right, and we need to be reminded of
that truth. Yeah, I mean where do you all see
reminders of the truth of God in your community or
as you look about you, in the communities that the
people in our churches and our parishes are part of.

(15:43):
Where do you think we can find we can find
truth and beauty and light and life and reminders that
God is good and that we are created good in
the image of God to reflect that goodness.

Speaker 4 (15:55):
Oh, that's a great question. You mean, like in our
in our church, it in our worship and our.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
Wherever, you know, Like I think in Lowell, we're here
by the North Country Trail and we're in a community
with nature all around us, and so I see the
truth and beauty about who God is in the created
world that we've been given. Right.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (16:17):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I think just in in my uh,
my congregation, the even if the party, the Pentecost party,
the joy, like every I'm just picturing all these faces,
you know, the joy and in the faces of the
people that I get to serve in the interaction, the

(16:40):
truth that we're in community and we love each other.
Not to be like a softball Pollyanna answer, but that
are we're doing this thing together and uh, and that
celebration is true. There's something true, there's there's so there's
such a theme throughout the Gospels of celebration. Uh.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
And there's so.

Speaker 4 (17:02):
Many, so many times where the heaven is referred to
as a party.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
Life is hard. We know life is hard.

Speaker 4 (17:14):
We know their trials, we know there's all this this
gobbledygook and garbage we have to wade through. And yet
time and again, it's a party. It's a banquet, hm,
that we're invited to and these little glimmers of yeah
we had cake and balloons, and that can seem silly
and trivial, but here we are together and I'm just
picturing these faces, the people that I just got to

(17:36):
spend time with, and I'm and the joy on their
faces and we got to just have these really sweet moments.
And that's true.

Speaker 3 (17:45):
Mr.

Speaker 4 (17:46):
I hang out to that that's true, that happened.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
It's true.

Speaker 4 (17:49):
We're doing this thing together, We're celebrating together, this little, tiny,
little glimmer of a banquet.

Speaker 8 (17:54):
I love that I'm reminded of of something a quote
from long Agan, who is a nineteenth century, twentieth century,
last century theologian, and he said, I.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Remember one of my professors would repeat this a lot.

Speaker 5 (18:12):
He'd say, uh, genuine objectivity is the fruit of authentic subjectivity,
and so genuine not activity, which maybe another way of
saying it is.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Truth, Like objective truth.

Speaker 5 (18:28):
Is what happens when we were when we are authentic
to ourselves.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
And I guess whenever I see that.

Speaker 5 (18:38):
Sort of authentic subjectivity, when people are, like I said,
saying true to themselves, it does.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
It does show me that there's there's truth in that
that like.

Speaker 5 (18:50):
That's it's not just true from the celves, but that
that brings about a greater truth for for all of
us if we all, if we all act in that way,
you know, we truth just is the fruit of that,
you know, truth and goodness another way I think of saying,
truth is what is what is good?

Speaker 2 (19:13):
And and so I see that, Yeah, I see that
a lot. Mentioning the different community members that we that
we have and people who are very very committed to.

Speaker 5 (19:28):
Their cultural tradition, to the to the church, I see
such great hope in in that and they're willing to
be who.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
They are and also share it with with others.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
M yeah, and that's what I what I think of.
You know, when Jesus says, I have so many things
to say to you, but you can't bear them. Now,
I think that you know, we we all these beautiful
glimpses of the truth that God has given us through
our lives, to our cultures, to our communities, and we
need things like the church, like the Unity Festival you

(20:03):
guys held, like Pentecost to remind us that the truth
is so much bigger than us, right, that God is
so much bigger than us, that there's more going on
than we can see and comprehend oftentimes, and that we
can take comfort in that it's not something we need
to be frightened about, but that God's truth sort of

(20:25):
with a capital T, is not something to fear, but
something we're invited to be part of, and that we
each can reflect by contributing to with our lives, by
being faithful to who God's created us to be, right
people who serve in the ways God has called us
to serve, and love others in the ways that God
has called us to love there's just something really really

(20:49):
beautiful about that, at least to me.

Speaker 4 (20:52):
Yeah, why do we think this is the text for
Trinity Sunday?

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Right?

Speaker 4 (21:00):
Interesting section of three verses that aren't particularly trinitarian. I
mean we talk about the spirit of Truth, glorifying Christ
all the Father has us nine. So we we've got
the three yeahs the Trinity, but it's not a particularly yeah,

(21:20):
trinitarian like for Trinity Sunday, you would think there'd be
There are a lot of other are like like, this
is an interesting section of versus and how do you yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
For Trinity Sunday?

Speaker 4 (21:36):
Is this is this the are you fired opportunity setting
of these verses or what?

Speaker 3 (21:43):
What's your spin on the rights?

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (21:50):
For me, I wonder you know if it some of
it just is how as the church we've struggled to
understand and articulate clearly the mystery of the Trinity. Right,
it is really hard to wrap our minds around. It's
hard to explain to other people. You know, We've tried
in lots of ways, you know, using an image of
an egg, or of an apple, or Saint Patrick and

(22:12):
the clover, right, but but the Trinity is so mysterious.
I just wonder if this passage was picked because you know,
it's just so hard to explain. I don't know, how.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
About you, father Mike, Yeah, I'm not sure either.

Speaker 5 (22:28):
And it's funny though, like the you mentioned about the
it is a it is a mystery and it she
wanted to do a talk on on the Trinity because
Trinity Sunday was coming up, and and she asked me like, oh,
like I want to ask It was like getting late
to ask somebody to like give a talk on it.

(22:49):
It's like I want to ask this person. It's coming
up in like five days or whatever. And it's like
I think she just thought like, oh, it's a pretty
easy It was like a father, son, holy spirit, like
this is someonet inexperienced person to talk about this. It's like, well,

(23:10):
I mean this is something that like the church wrestled
with for like a few hundred years.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Like this is not like just a simple it's pretty
complex to understand what the triunity is. I mean, ultimately
we could say it's a mystery because it is. But
it's yeah, there's a lot there.

Speaker 5 (23:29):
I mean I think the message that you know, I
will tell and hopefully a lot of a lot of
preachers will tell this weekend, is you know that the
trinity because we have a God who is who is
one with three persons that they're in relationship with one another,

(23:50):
and so God is himself herself a relationship and so
it just amplifies the need for us to be in a
relationship with God and with others.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Do thank you any other thoughts before we close today?

Speaker 3 (24:06):
Thank you, good discussion. Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
Well on behalf of Pastor Ruth and Father Mike and myself,
thank you for joining us. And as you go into
this day and this week, we just pray that you
will see the goodness and the grace and the truth
and mercy of God all around you